Jane Goodall


Welcome welcome welcome armchair expert. I'm dan sheppard. This is a very very exciting episode for me. If you've heard the show you nominee anthropology major talk about it ad nauseam and of course the queen of anthropology well margaret. Mead's up there. But jane goodall my goodness jane goodall. What a human being. Jane goodall is. She is a primatology. An anthropologist and an advocate for the environment animals and the natural world for the last thirty years. Jane has been focused on biodiversity protection fighting the climate crisis addressing intensive farming empowering young people through youth program roots and shoots and so much more. She also has a new podcast. The jane goodall hope cast so. Please check out. Jane's new podcast. Jane goodall hope cast enjoy the queen of prime mentality. We are supported by top gear. America i just got in the door from utah where we were shooting. More top gear america. We jumped a trx and excessive distance. Which was so darned fun rob cordery jethro boven. 'em myself of course are on top gear america. I gotta say the feedback has been so wonderful on top gear america. I just love it and the joy ride continues so get ready for more top gear america more adventure more chaos more cars new episodes of top gear america are coming may seventh twenty twenty one streaming only on the motor trend. A- just watch the hot rod episode which was so fun. I raced a ferrari in my buick. Roadmaster station wagon. I won't tell you who was victorious. That's a cliffhanger. So check out top gear america. Right now start your free trial today by going to motor trend. Dot com slash. Tgi twenty one. That's motor trend dot com slash t g twenty one get the motor trend app and check us out are supported by brooke linen There is nothing. I enjoy more than getting down to my birthday suit sliding into my eyes cold hotel quality soft brooklyn ins and just riding around a little bit. 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Treat yourself to comfort with brooklyn's comforter collection go to brooklyn dot com use promo code expert to get twenty five dollars off with a minimum purchase of one hundred dollars that's brooklyn and be are okay. L. i n. e. n. dot com and enter promo code expert for twenty five dollars off with a minimum purchase of one hundred dollars. That's brooklyn and dot com promo code expert. How are you doing well. I've never been as exhausted. I'm busy in my whole. Life has during this lockdown since march. It's been every single day being virtual jane yet. Generally you would be traveling around and talking and within that schedule is built in some little breaks for yourself. I'd imagine yes. This is no breaking since march. It's being virtually every single day. Are you being held captive. Your will because you can signal us with like raise your eyebrows. If someone's forcing you to do all this right. But then i agree to it so well it. It is a huge delight for us to talk to you. We've been attempting to schedule this for a while. I think you're going to speak at ucla. My alma mater. And we were going to speak in person which i was excited about. But i'll take you anyway. I can get you okay. I was hoping today we could go through all the stuff. You're up to that. You're working on your podcast. Jane goodall institute roots and shoots. But if it's okay with you. I would really hope to frame this in a broader theme of being female. I think today that's very relevant thing for us to be looking at how a female perspective can be so helpful why there should be more leadership roles for women and the value of that and i can't imagine someone more significant in that way than you. I think you're in the ruth bader ginsburg mount rushmore of women who have really put their stamp on the world. You reject that you know. Like being compared to her she is such an icon. Yeah i hate to break its use. Oh are you yeah. Well okay so when you started your work i think nine hundred fifty seven may be the first time you go to gombe's a study in no nineteen fifty seven. I went to kenya. Louis leakey and then i had to go back to the uk for a year while he found the money. Because soon i haven't been to college right. Who was going to give money to this. Young untrained girl do something as absurd. This study chimpanzees in a forest. Yeah not a lot of people you could have pointed to to say. Hey look how good this works but yes you went back. You went to cambridge. I think you are the eighth person ever to get a phd without having an undergraduate degree. Which i think is fascinating. I am curious how many there are now but when you started very very male dominated field is that safe to say. Well yes and no i mean there was almost nobody going out studying animals in the wild the world three people and they were all males in a job. Challenge was studying montenegro. Rela and there were two american men in south africa studying chakma a boot. But that was it. Oh okay well the thing that you were unique in novel in in that you got a ton of criticism for can i just say one thing. I'm going to tell you. I was an anthropology major so i worship to you and i wanted to do primatology. Just know that there's a lot of baggage for my love for you in this but my understanding is that you were really the first person to be doing any thalji where you were not naming the subjects numbers so generally when people studied animals prior to you they would just say one a one b whatever their nomenclature was in. You're really the first to name them in recognize their personalities remember. I hadn't been to college when i first went out. Louis leakey might mental. He's the one who picked me for this study. And he wanted a woman that was one key thing he wanted to woman. He felt they might be more patient in the field. So that was one good thing for me and secondly he wanted somebody who hadn't been to college because he wanted a mind uncluttered by the reductionist thinking of the animal behavior people of the time so was nobody out in the field on the numbers were given by most of these people to the animals in labs and animals in captive situations. So the reason i named the mobile wouldn't i. It's just not true to give an animal a name not a number. Uh yeah well really quick about louis do you think maybe his confidence in you. And the other two women that he shepherded through diane fossey who then went and studied gorillas and then i can't pronounce her name who did orangutans t galdikas. Yes yes do you think maybe. He was in a position to feel that way. 'cause his own wife was so prolific as an archaeologist and they had made discoveries together. Do you think that made him more open minded to that. It's quite possible. I got no. I hadn't thought of that before will is possible. I think that in general the criticism for you naming them was. You're kind of displaying. Empathy and empathy was the opposite of objectivity which sciences going for. That was the singular kind of criticism. And i have to say that sounds very very similar to the outmoded male position. That women in general are too emotional and not objective their emotional not logical and that to me the critique of you is more than what's on the surface at that time well. It's absolutely true. That when i got to cambridge big criticism was you cannot have empathy with your subject. You got to be objective and the snow space for having empathy and i disagreed so much because when you have empathy with your subject may do something extraordinary. She'll have empathy. You you you say to yourself. Well i think i know why they did that. And then then you can put on your scientific now jacomb say okay without. Let's prove am i right or am i wrong and ask questions. I listened to your interview. With dave matthews. Which by the way is a thrilling friendship that you guys have on your podcast. The jane goodall hope casts and you gave the example of seen. A young chimp break her arm and then go to her mother. I think you're describing was when this little baby broke her arm and she was the first baby and the mother was inexperienced so every time the baby cried which obviously it was very painful. The mother just hugged her title which made her cry louder. So but you know all those many examples of chimpanzees showing true altruism to each other like an adult male rescuing an often infants who is even related to him and saving his life. Yeah but the point i loved you made is yes. I had these emotions. I was heartbroken for this inexperienced mother. But my kids are as thorough as notes could be. It is as objective as one can be one doesn't preclude the other and i think that was such a novel idea. You're absolutely right. It was tears. Were pouring down my face because this baby was named little jane she was the only one who's fb named for me and you know. She was three months old at that time. We didn't watch many infants. Growing up sues about the fifth. I think it was just tragic. It was the mother and such confusion. The baby so badly hud was nothing we could do. So i'm going to go even further with this. I would argue that your novel approach of having empathy. Open your eyes in a way that someone studying them even for the same duration that you studied them they would have missed things. I think they would not have been open because they were this other. This animal this lower thing that they would have missed the parallels. I would even argue ear enormous contribution the legendary contribution is that you discovered that chimpanzees use tools. That was thought to be something. Only humans could do in in a great definer of what made us human and you demonstrated that and you kind of destroyed that fantasy. Yes and we were supposed to be the only creatures to have personality. The only creatures have minds capable of problem solving and especially the only creatures with emotions and you know. I was tortoise. A child by my dog of course animals have personalities minds and emotions. It's ridiculous when the scientists told me that when i got to cambridge i really wanted it. They really believe what they were saying. Or was it just. They couldn't prove it. That it's better not talk about other tint. Why have a whole theory on. Why haven't i think it serves an actual purpose to alleviate our ethical issues with how they're treated but before we get there you could also say they have culture as well which is something we would have thought was only ass right absolutely. Ah dense culture if you look at one population versus another. They have their own unique set of things. They've learned in our passing on traditions. And all these things that certainly meet the definition of culture behavior you passed from one generation to the next through observation imitation and practice that is a definition of human culture. But when i first mentioned culture. I didn't have any other examples really. But it just seemed intuitively of course as you see the baby's what chain than in other places where i heard there was banging open nuts with rocks which gumby chimps still do the young ones. They're learning that so kusak coaches. I was given so much flack over that you cannot talk about culture. Yeah so. I think the fact that you were naive enough having not been in college and then again. I really think it has a lot to do with you being a woman in that situation that you were empathetic and that through that we get some of the greatest discoveries about that species and i really do think other people would have missed it. I think you're right that many people would i really do. And you know. I've been reading in. The shadow of manifest book wrote about the golden beecham's. It's going to be one chapter a month and it just took me right back. I was reading and thinking every detail is that it was magic to read what i was learning about their different personalities amid was just magical to see. How did it back then now is the person is jane. The person there had to be terrible days in the field. There had to be incredible loneliness at times. You're in your twenties. There was not you deserve your head. Being alone is very different from being lonely. And i've always loved being alone. I mean even. When i was a child that would climb the tree out there. Because i'm in my family and spend ages alone up into branches. I got with my dog onto the clifftops on my own and they were quite wild in those days. So i've always loved being alone. The only time. I was a little bit lonely you know. My mother came with me start. Well again. I really quick. I think that's hysterical as well. That's another male female thing you're twenty four and they insist your mother joined you. That wouldn't have happened to a mail sciences. Now they did. That's not true. They did not insist. My mother join me. Said i couldn't be out in the field on my own. Oh okay okay. And she volunteered to come okay. And it was amazing. People say i was brave. I wasn't brave was what i wanted to do. She was you know she was left alone. With these big booms invading ten because they are very entrepreneurial and they quickly grabbing it thing. That might be a new food buffalo's wandering around snakes spiders. She was brave one and she was a novelist. Yeah well she wrote a couple of books. Okay that's two more than i've written. So i'm gonna caller novelist so obviously had her own set of determination as all on pointing out a determined person. The whole family said the time you're lonely. Yeah yet when she first left just before i saw to using an i really missed having somebody to share the excitement with i have this cook and a guy driving the boat and they listen. They were interested but it didn't mean as much to them as it would have to Yeah i mean why wouldn't the chimps use tools. of course they weren't high fiving each other when you discovered that they were getting termites out now. There was no period. Where of course. Because i'm trapped in my own point of view in as much as i may have been interested in that. Were you ever at any moment going while. But i'm also missing out on this huge human experience. I could be in london. Having drinks with friends did that ever enter your mind. Were you ever concerned about what you are quote missing. Absolutely absolutely not okay. Although i've been very social before i left you know i wasn't a little shy retiring creature. I was out there having fun going to dawn and things like that. I didn't miss it. I didn't miss it. 'cause you are so focused in so fulfilled by this. Pursuit was there in the forest. Only magic of the forest around myth and learning new things every day and will these amazing chimpanzees the different way of doing things complete metric now for those of the listeners who aren't super familiar with just what level of threat different. Primates are your arguably with the most dangerous when you agree dangerous. Yeah as compared to say guerrillas or other big great apes gorillas can lose that temper this young man who is studying chimpanzees in congo and he was attacked ferociously by a male gorilla. Who obviously just ted confrontation with another male. He was mad and this guy survived. I simply don't know right. Attempts can be violent. They're all strong so yes chimpanzees these with each other. They can kill each other. It's lucky they didn't want to kill me. Yes let me. Just say from a personal point of view. I have trekked up to the guerrillas. I felt pretty safe. And then we also went into a force on the hunt for chimpanzees and there were a lot more rules and it was taken much more seriously like this has odds of going bad for more than the guerrilla experience would. That's probably because of the people running the program okay. I'll blame them but as you point out. They're incredibly strong four times stronger than a full grown adult. Human eight times stronger than me. I'm sure very wrong. And they can be very very violent and whether scary moments. Yes there were. Oh yeah but none that ever made you rethink or question. What you're gonna do. No of course. Not i gotta. I couldn't let louis leakey down. Could i no no. No no no that someone's approval. I would certainly be in search of you. Always have that obstinate disposition going through life or did it sort of come when you had this passion. I think i probably always had it. Yeah i think you're born with that or not. Yeah you were. And i have pretty bad dose of it. Can i ask you while you were watching chimpanzees over these many many years. How were the male female roles chimpanzees similar to our own. And how are they different. And was that something that interested you. I was interested in everything. But i loved was watching mother child behavior development of infants relations with brothers and sisters but the males have dominant they have dominance hierarchy they dominate all females and very promiscuous which caused some people to draw not all monogamous and so basically in female comes into eastern when. She's ready for mating. She may be made by all the males when off to the other the various sexually popular of old female flow mayton seven t two times in one day why sewers privy exhaust to the g. She was followed by this string of males and they adolescence. Who don't really get go. They will hide behind a bush and shake a little branch and sometimes the female will look at the alpha male and then creep off behind the bush and is it. There's even evidence. I remember writing a paper called lying in primates. In how they'll also give a call like that. There's perhaps a predator in the area so that all the alpha's run towards it and then they get a shot at the female while the alpha's are out. I think that sort of thing happens sometimes too but mostly that happens when for example chimps hunt sometimes and hunting is a very exciting thing so if the top male sometimes shows possessiveness and other males are not supposed to make his female that happens often but if the alpha male gets distracted and is looking at the hunt bats when the other males run in gas you go and if the alpha male the possessive male catch them. Who do you think he attacks. All i saw that girl for the female up. Yeah that's pretty. That's kind of consistent humans. Yeah yeah if he attacked the male to female it would run often. Have more fun. I didn't think of creating another window of opportunity. So i have a question for you. Does it correlate perfectly with sexual die. Morphism like is the level of male dominance proportional to how much bigger males are than females in species semi between chimps and bonobos male. Bonobo is more or less the same size as the female. And you don't get the same system of sexual relations. And bonobos is well they have a much broader sexual experience than paying troglodyte is right. They're doing more things. That female bonobo is having this pink swelling all the time so they solve a lot of disputes through sexual behavior and females reassure each other by rubbing their sexual swellings together. So i was so glad to louis. Leakey didn't send me to study them. Because the geographic would never have supported. They couldn't in those days of had will these. Pink bottoms pitches. A wonderful photograph in the gets the second geographic article which should obeyed an at c. Sixty nine think and photograph taken by my husband hugo so wonderful photo five males sitting in a row that all of it'll roused looking at the camera has slightly out and always these big erections hard voting off missed little strange missed loin levels. He captured the perfect moment. You know those days. There was no photo shopping. And i saw note to the engraver. Blend in two for blend of graphic was than even when photograph. It's lovely those setting sun and up against you know a beautiful evening light. And i'm holding the walkie talkie to send a message to my mother who's down to tell her. I'm staying up for the night. And i get back. This picture with the note to the grave around each nail is circling since removed from nails. Oh you're kidding. Wow not a while. oh man well. Let's change change now. Of course because i mail i had a particular interest in frodo almost looked like a silverback. He was so disproportionately muscular. I was fascinated by him. Did you name him after frodo baggins was. That's before i realised his personality was entirely not like i say that he did not live up to the name. Frodo ins was as flynn was before him in this dominant at family. He was a spoilt brat. Older brother who supported him a older sister who supported him a top-ranking mother of so he could get away with mudder. I mean he could attack and tease a much older individuals knowing that his family would run the his support and he became a real bully. Yeah and he was enormous though he was considerably bigger than most the other males. Wasn't he not really big because he had so often his risley cash he was most solid. Solid built. Yeah so no we met. You are empathetic and that you are not trying to deny whatever emotional feelings could you come to hate any of them like. Would you be frustrated with frodo. Did act like such a spoiled brat so often and of course his victims are other. Chimps you love. Of course i was mad at him was mad when they did things which were really unpleasant. Horrible i mean. I think of them like humans ryan thorough people. Who do things that irritate. You make you angry. Same that the chimps. Yeah but it would be hard for me if i was in that position to try not to correct behavior versus just observing. No if were in the position you wouldn't feel that tool for one thing. If you tried to intervene in something like that that would be the end of you. Oh yeah well. I might get myself. He was a monster. I mean he was so strong and violent at times. So the very ironic part of your life has to occur to you is that you went deep into a jungle and you're entirely anonymous and at some point you emerge in your a world figure. I think that must be one of the most bizarre trajectories to being recognized the world over most people. Come to hollywood where we're at to get that kind of recognition but you went deep into the jungle and that transition for you. Is it confusing natural. What is that experience. Well when it first happened. I was even out basically shei-pa and first of all all these journalists wanting to interview me and i tried to get out of it and then i remember the first time somebody coming up to me when i was walking through santa fe actually and this woman came up and she started tears in her eyes. Saying you know she actually said. Can i touch you. Can i touch you. This is spooky this issue. I said well. I'll shake your hand. And so the beginning you know people would come up in airports need oneself fees and could i sign something and at first i was really i hated it. I put on dark glasses. And let my hair down. But it still don and then i thought well by this time. I'm trying to raise awareness. I'm trying to raise money for the institute trying to develop our youth program inside the will is obviously something happened. I can't do anything about it on. Ask for it. So will use it so taking brochures around handing them out saying. Do you have children than they've us. Join roots and shoots gives the memory show. Well yes it sounds like. You accepted the reality of what it was. Which is there's no going back. So how do we make the best of the situation. Just so you know. If i met you i would attempt to. Groom you played along demonstrate your your status cuba wonderful groomed bid. Let's start there. Yeah more armchair expert debuted dare. We are supported by. Figs figs celebrates the one hundred percent awesome healthcare professionals by making scrubs. They actually feel excited about wearing figs mission. Making sure healthcare professionals have awesome scrubbed so they can look their best feel their best and perform their best join figs and celebrating awesome healthcare professionals and give them the best groups in the world. I own a pair of these. Why because my nickname. When i play spades is a surgeon. I have figs. 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It's more affordable than traditional online. Counseling and financial aid is available in fact so many people have been using better. Help their recruiting additional counselors in all fifty states. I'm a big big proponent of therapy it has helped me endlessly throughout life. Podcast is sponsored by better help in armchairs. Get ten percent off their first month at better. Help dot com slash dax visit. Better help h. e. l. p. dot com slash dax. Enjoying the over one million people who've taken charge of their mental health with the help of an experienced better health professional our best friends they have a nine year old girl. I mean we've interviewed bill gates and hillary clinton you name it. None of this stuff is reached their radar. They could care less but the nine year old out we were interviewing you. And she was beside herself. She had to dress up as someone you admired. She's gone as you several times. And i think what an amazing thing that you were born in one thousand nine hundred thirty seven. Maybe a gale even better thirty four. And here's a little girl born in two thousand ten mimicking you. I just think it's so spectacular and for a wonderful reason not because you have a humongous but then show it on instagram. Like i'm delighted that they're young women who address up like you and my daughters are excited so wonderful so with year notoriety in your deep love for the environment for conservation for animals. You've been a part of a couple of different really released successful organisations the first of which is the jane goodall institute which was established in one thousand nine hundred seventy seven. And i believe now. There's ten thousand groups in one hundred countries that's going onto the youth program. They are jane goodall institute we have twenty four separate institutes in twenty four different countries. All my goodness and the program. Young people is a program of the jane goodall institute. Got you so roots and shoots is under the umbrella of jane goodall institute now roots and shoots has forty five hundred groups in seventy countries. Do you agree to that about seventy. Yeah sixty eight sixty nine seventy seventy two something like that does groups. We don't even know about because you know the discovered one the far away in the rainforest of guatemala ecuador or something all my young people going from one school to another only love. This program says they started him. The new school so it just grass roots. Yeah walk me through. What roots and shoots does what's the objective and it's youth centric. So what is the goal. How does it work lex that a group get started sates mostly in school and very often those a teacher who tries to get it going or it may be a pie school students or something like that or it may be and the university of somebody may started a kindergarten so you get the group of young people who cab and you tell them now you choose three projects to make the world better to one day help people wanna help animals one to help the environment because the choices they make will depend on how old they are if they're rich or poor if they're living in the town of the country if they're living in china or the united states or abu dhabi or something like that lily should start one. Yeah she by the way it should be so great at. She really wanted. she's a boss. Okay yes you can help hon. You know so. That's how group start. And when. I was traveling around. America through the airports handing out my little brochures. You could follow my progress by seeing way new loop started up just dropping seeds. Yes that's right so now let's go back to. I think the general reservation in the past of acknowledging that animals have an emotional capacity or an intellectual capacity. I think the hesitation there is if that is recognized then you must immediately go to what the ethical dilemma of eating them is or studying them or any of these things. Well studying them with intervention studying them in research laboratories certainly eating them. It's more than the eating of them. It's the way they're kept in the factory farms. It's horrendous and then on top of that this the harm it does to the environment. You're going to feed them. You cut down. Habitats grow the grain. You use fossil fuel grain. The animals to the animals to abbatoir meet the table. They produce methane gas which is like co two greenhouse gases. Thirty two times better at heating up the atmosphere then. Co two it is the the lethal gas up there. Okay so. I don't want anyone to call me a hypocrite. Because i do eat me. Obviously i don't feel morally great about it and i think i've tended to focus on exactly what you just mentioned. Which is the manner in which were getting. The me feels like it could be vastly improved but you know something if you love the taste of meet face alternatives to me dicon tell the difference s identical. You're right you're right. We these life burgers in their insanely delicious ear right. There is no reason to not embrace those. I agree i guess in. Tell me wyan idiot. I'm going to give you an opportunity to point out my flaw so i have no problem acknowledging the value and complexity of animals. I'm not in denial of it to me. It's quite obvious. go to a place. Where we'll i'm an omnivore in omnivores e me and i'm like any other animal. That's an omnivore. I don't feel guilty about playing my role in the food chain now. Obviously playing an absurd role. That i wasn't really designed so i also acknowledged that but i think that's what i fall back on morally. Do you want to blow some holes. In that i will first of all you are able to comprehend the exact nature of the creature that you're eating and you know that that is an animal that has emotions that can feel. Fear and pain plays a role in society or it would do if it was allowed to. And so that makes you separate from the abandoned this also something else to do with health and we have the gut of her before. And the hubby will has long got. Because it's got to get the goodness out of leaves and grass and things a condom four as a short one big cigarette to get rid of the meat before it rots in the intestines which were harming our health this way plus years. These poor animals are given hormones to make them grow faster antibiotics to stop them die because of stress so those antibiotics the bacteria building up resistance because they used all the time. Is there an hierarchy in your mind or no like what about eating insects. Are you more in favor of that. Well i that's something i haven't really come to grips with because this even people now talking about the fact that some plants may have purposes. Well i have to say that. If i was asked to choose between eighteen a pig an mealworm i would choose the mail and i don't think it's too terribly bad to eat insects. Some okay eggs. How do we feel about eggs. Oh if x from heads clucking around in the farmyard. Mind so much. But the factory farms of horrendous the other bad on the environmental and the milk coming from these dairy cows in these off i mean you watch some of the secretly filmed video new. Feel ill. That's what stopped me. When i learned about factory farms for the first time in the late seventies and next time i looked may told my plate. I thought this symbolizes fear pain death. Yeah not appealing. No not very appetizing. Very hungry what you laid out like that. And you know what else when i'm talking to people i never. I never say bad person. You eat meat. You should be mobile. I want to love to this to google checkout pig castle not kosova the artists but pig kosovo you watch that okay. Well here's what happened to me. I watched forks over knives eight years ago and i went vegan for a year. I doubt forks over knives as alarming as what you just told me so. I'm watch it. I might as well go grocery shopping. I because i'm sure. I'm going to have to make a decision afterwards. But really i mean i feel so much better than i stopped. I felt like you feel better when you a vacant for you. I didn't do it right. I didn't put enough time into. What i did is ended eating a zillion carbohydrates in no. I didn't feel much better. I think i felt worse. I'll own a failure on my part and the choices now is so good don't they. Well they're way different than i did it in two thousand. Yes exactly. I mean come on a long way. You know to be honest. What got me off of it. As i was going back to detroit on stocks my father was ill and you just eat vegetarian in two thousand twelve in detroit. Now in la. It's pretty darn good and easy overall. Are you optimistic or pessimistic. Where you add on our state. Well i'm both okay. I know that if we all get together we've got a window of time. We can stop slowing down climate change. We can start healing some of the home that we've done natives very resilient with coming up with our intellect with more and more ways for clean green energy renewable energy and things like that but the thing is we don't have that much time so how do we get people involved. That's why i worked so hard on roots and shoots and so thrilled because many children are changing their parents. Oh yeah mindue daily. It's so annoying. But i do get drug along by a lot of little a little girl in china who i i met when she was ten jr couldn't speak english to came to my lecture. Which of course was translated and she said to her parents. I'm going to learn english. Because i want to talk to dr jane. She started a roots and shoots group and her mother helped her and now she's fluent english. She doing all kinds of amazing. But i got a letter from her mother. She said dr jane. I have to tell you. She doesn't speak english but then her daughter translated. But i was just a housewife and i went shopping. And i never thought Didn't think about anything should now. I've become a thoughtful person. And i think about what i buy and how it was made did it. The environment to said this program of yours does not just change the children. It's changed their parents to. Yeah that's lovely of the things you've done. What is most rewarding matt stuff inspiring a little girl in china or is it the fact that you probably played a huge role in the fact. That chimps are still here. I don't know time what's the one main thing i think. One thing that. I really feel the chimps may to do this but to change the scientific attitude towards animals Yeah that's pretty darn profound. That's a paradigm shift. Yeah it's a paradigm shift and the other one is starting roots and shoots because that now has its own life if i died tomorrow roots and shoots will carry on. But that's such a good point. Yeah for someone who wants to enact. Change trying to figure out how to do it in your absences. I imagine the hardest thing to figure out which you've done. Okay now your podcast. I want to know. Do you like interviewing people. You've been interviewed your whole life. And i was in a similar situation which i'm an actor and i've been doing interviews for fifteen years and i'm like oh i know how to be in an interview and guess what i did not. I knew how to get in. I had to learn how to interview. Have you enjoyed hosting jane goodall. Hope cast well. When i was told i had to host it stupid center system anyway then i found i could do it. It's like the first time i had to give lecture. I felt that for the first five minutes. I literally couldn't breathe. I was terrified. But then suddenly i realized that i do not something from the audience that filled me with with. I don't know what it is but it's a kind of magic which comes to me when i'm out there in front of a crowd that's why this virtual business virtual lectures looking at the camera on top of a screen. That is so hard. I'd had to really put every ounce of energy into trying to give appropriate without an audience Yeah you know. This is a topic. I bring up all the time. There's a term for that. I can't remember it. I am always having majored anthro. I'm always trying to get people to recognize how social of an animal we are like. We have this very obvious understanding that our social so they behave this way in this predictable way and they respond to this and we seem to underestimate that. We're the like apec social animal and that all the things chimps need. We need probably times three this notion of us being an island that is not how we were designed to live and i think you look at all of our mental health issues. We underestimate how social we are and how much we need each other and you standing in front of an audience makes total sense to me because you are feeling the full brunt of community like this is what you were designed to do. That's right. I i do feel like half a suit of purpose in this life and i just have to try and do it you know when i was little. I wanted to write books. Because i was so shy and i started writing when i was four. My mother used to write it down for me. I found stories. I wrote when i was five. Got one lovely. So i always wanted to write want to write poetry but then you know ten years old africa wild animals books that that's what i want to do because women want that sort of scientists than so that the cycle and is it true. You still have the chimpanzee stuffed animal. Your dad gave you as a child. Yes he's in lockdown in washington dc where he was part of the exhibit they put on becoming jane or something like that which i haven't seen yet and locked came to be stippled. Gordon seen by couldn't have him he was too precious. They made him a glass bullet proof case. He's on display like the pope. Well there's an ever an auction and the only thing. I think i'd ever want to own of somebody you know. I think i'd be a good steward of that teddy bear. Should that ever care. You'd be a bad student if you can't well. They're both mammals. It's an easy mistake. My last question about your podcast. I find. I'm just being honest and candid with you. I find that the experience of having fame is underwhelming and more of an inconvenience. But i will say the thing that i most enjoy is that i get to meet someone like you and i have to imagine that you are not impervious to that to do. Enjoy the fact that you can meet people that you were greatly interested in of course because the people i want to me because they could really make a difference. There's none that you just. They're not gonna make a difference but like john. Travolta you love saturday night. Fever and by god. You could have a conversation with john travolta now well. I hate to say that. I haven't had time to go to cinemas for so long. I don't know the film stars. Well i was trying to make it easy for you. That was nineteen. Seventy seven a dea. Saturday night fever. It didn't see that film. Do you have a favorite film. Not the rings ooh k. One do you think about lord of the rings it except he like what's going on now if you think that more door is greed and riches and all these despots who are and we need to grow the fellowship to fight that to fight the black riders who are out there all these big businessmen couldn't care less about anything else and even thought of that recently but if you remember galadriel gives frodo vile of dust and when he sprinkles it all the trees are being cut down by more door come to life and grow up again so the whole thing. It's like a parable of what's going on right prophetic. Yeah he's perfecting. I hadn't made that connection. I made it yes you did. It's proprietary to you now jane. You're so wonderful. I appreciate your time so much. I really want to tell that your captors that you need a little break though okay mic cap too. I'm not a weak and feeble. plus you are. You're anything. But i do have a job to do and job requires me to do what i'm doing so my mother told me if you're going to do something do it as well as you possibly can. While your mother who should be incredibly happy. Because you've done exactly that. And i thank you on behalf of my children's future generations. I'm so grateful to you for dedicating so much your life in time and energy to try to make this place somewhere we can live for more than another one hundred years thank you. That's being absolutely lovely talking to was really looking forward to it. Well we will meet one day. And i will groom you the best of your life. I guarantee he'll band okay. Have a wonderful rest of your day. We appreciate you so much. thanks okay bye. Gene stage tuned for more expert. There we are supported by me under the under the under the undone. Sunday's we unease. Oh my lord. Do i love me on these. I got a pair recently. That are black with white little simple pictures of space explores. I love them. I like him so much. I had the thought. I should get twenty of these weather around. Never not want to be in these me on these now. It is time. We stopped messing around about funny things and talk about something really serious and important your underwear me on these believes undies yelled about from the rooftops or shown off in mere southeast for instagram. Mendis isn't just here to make sure everybody is comfortable. They're also limiting the amount of laundry. You have how thoughtful to membership that not only saves you thirty percent on order but delivers a fun. New pair of undies or sex right to your door each month. Plus you're the boss. You can control your shipments and you can get early. Access to their most exclusive prints. Mayonnaise has a great offer for arm cherries for any first time. Purchasers you get fifteen percent off and free shipping. 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That's just right for you. You can buy it online or in store with curbside pickup in home delivery in select markets. So by your next car your way at carmax the way it should be get all the details and start the search for your next car today at carmax dot com and now my favorite part of the show. The fact check with my soul batman. Hello monica they're paging. Mrs padma n- mrs pad man. How your huge on my computer. Oh too big now your life size. We are not together obviously together. We are separated by about eight hundred miles. And what are you doing. Eight hundred miles away but this decided to get out of town this fucking hit the road no to alaska or south to la. Get out of town. I'm shooting season. Two of top gear. America in utah. And how is it going. Oh man it's so good. It's so good. Oh sorry. oh what the hell happened. House my peppermint tea. Oh my gosh making a real life thing. Yeah so much fun. Jumping trucks racing stace german station wagons today. Horsing around Cutting up with the guys. Wow you know that kind of stuff. You love a cut up. I do love to cut up and you have been very productive this weekend. Yeah had almost no fun. I've been only give you. You have fun doing that though right. Yeah well i wouldn't say fun. It's just really satisfying. So what i did was spicer's. Yes yes i decided to get my life together. It was time who's overdo it was it was way overdue. I was feeling in all honesty. A out of control. I needed to gain some control back so the best way to do that is shopping. Which did that is second. Best way is to clean and organized. So i cleaned organized everything. You know my scary closet. That's like very scary because it's a big old mess where we keep the equipment. Yeah yeah yeah. Every time we gotta get the equipment out of there. It's like indiana jones and the temple of doom waiting for darts to shoot out the walls. No well you brought it up. I did clean up a year ago and it took all day. I mean it was horrible. I posted a picture of it in its worst state and it was really. It was like monica geller. Secret closet friends fans will know what that means. Okay you're not gonna know what that means when you said you posted a picture. You're in the process of senior post traumatic stress disorder from the closet. Well that too. I cleaned up a year ago. Beautiful then in within the year. It's gotten a little out of hand again. Sure years a long time. I had to completely fixed that. I had to clean. My refrigerator. made an error basket. Well everyone's up to speed on the fact that your professional gourmet chef now in the cook seven nights a week. I cook a lot. I really impressive. What are you going to cook tonight. I'm going to cook fish. Oh yuck yuck don't yuck that's a that's a bad idea. it's not cooking. Fish inside of an apartment is the one of the world's worst ideas i would open. Listen oh my god. Listen my chef. Kuru alson roman wants me to cook more fish and indoors and she said she said one of the main things that people fear is is gonna make my apartment smell. No it's not okay. You know what's the main thing people fear because one hundred times out of one hundred. Your whole house stinks like a catfish is not catfish. It's gonna be cod inkata's very light. It is not a fishy fish. Cod is feels like an interesting choice. Because isn't that what you get at mcdonald's and a flare fish now wait no properly taught lavish sticks no fish sticks and filet fisher cod very affordable fish. It wasn't that affordable than you got ripped off because it's a real cheap fish. I got a nice to my. I'm gonna make tomato poached fish and it is going to be delicious. What does that mean tomato poached. You poach it in tomato. I guess i don't i can. I'm thinking of poaching and oh no like it cooks within the tomato sauce. Jews garlic shallot some other stuff. I haven't looked up the rest being a bit. Well some of that might masks the smell. But i am. I'm gonna tell you one of my new fears. Which is you know when people stink they. They've passed their expiration date the b. oh and they. They don't have time for a shower so what they do. Is they pop some cologne all over themselves. Yeah and then smear their anti-perspirant on over the smell and now you just have a ton of smells and the b- oh it doesn't go away and then it's it's like an ambrosia or a cacophony of smells or a cornucopia of smells and i'm a little worried about that for you. I know you're talking about. It's like when people try to spray over their bowel movements. That's right yeah. You're right bad. Yeah yeah it's just leave the bra bob moon there. Yeah yeah i said roy. That was horrible okay. I agree here the pure movements in. Don't don't try to perfume that pig about the the b. m. but not about the fish. Can we agree upon a non-bias judge. That will stop by tomorrow morning. We can appoint somebody shack and we won't tell them anything. We're not going to say god thing just going to say we're asking a favorite you stop by monica's in the morning. Anything seems mentionable. You tell us if not thank you. And if they say yeah went to monaco's man it smelt like Not an alley cats. Oh okay well. Listen listen it's gonna smoke good. She promised and i trust her. I think you are extra sensitive issue. Hated the idea of anchovies. You don't like salmon which is crazy. I acknowledge that. And i cook salmon here a fair amount and i'm fine with it. Do you tell me you had a problem with one of these fish fries though that it did rick lake fish know that was the chicken enormous tank. Yeah well i think it up with some yard bird. But i thought you also had a fish mishap mix up so far. Haven't had any fish problems. How about this. Could we agree that if you have the option just why not cook it outside on the grill. No i can't tomato poach outside. Oh and that's that's the prep. That's a preparation of my choosing. Okay i have to cook it today. Because i took it out of the fridge out of the freezer couple of days ago. I am a little worried about that. I think it's funny. I'll stop but on the counter for two days thawed. It thought a while ago. It's been in the fridge. Oh okay how's you does your fridge stink at all now. Smells great well. Those herbs are in their basket makes us smell so good. I have either. Let us basket in an herb basket. the okay. The lead is basket is box but still it. Has its own impressive. It looks like a professional chefs fridge. When you saw picture of it you said too many vegetables. No one says that well. My concern was no one person could eat that many vegetables in the time horizon. That vegetables stay good. I tend to get three or four extra days out of fish couple of weeks outta the veggies over asked him this tomato. You're going to be poaching the old fish with old old fish. Well dale trying although they slashed prices day-old donuts dale bradley. Dale dale is usually signaling. That you're going to get a deal. As i said it wasn't cheap again. I got ripped off because it's very inexpensive ish. That's why it's in fish sticks and blair let me look up right now actually. This is a good factor. Real time fact. Yeah what kind of fish is in a filet of fish away of fish. Mcdonald's you're not going this answer not cod alaskan pohlak. Let's see what is. Alaskan alaska polack. Fuck is a species of cod. Yeah i walk back to cod fans you you you just got caught. I o d. I got fair deposit. How dare you cash on delivery. Copd de cod. You could do the same for fish sticks and you're gonna find it's cod across the board anytime fishing's yeah absolutely they. What make america run. But it's just not a year so gourmet right now in. Its its tuna fish. I love tuna fish. Also the reason she picked cod as this recipe is because it's not very fishy which is why it's fish sticks and whites and fillet fish. Yeah well and how cheap it is. Oh i'm gonna find out hold on top five most inexpensive. Okay if this makes the list. You're in trouble. Not it's supposed to be on the cheaper end. well now. you're changing your story. You said you paid really good money for this. No but like compared to howl of it but it wasn't cheap. It wasn't like five bucks. It was like twenty five. It's it didn't do inexpensive. It said expensive inexpensive. I should have just said cheap. Fish budget friendly fish skate apparently is cheap. Catfish we knew that. Which type of is the cheapest. This is a bad category to be looking white. Flesh fists is usually inexpensive. Has a mild flavor cooks quickly. That's the most popular kinds of whitefish include cod to lappia attic. Catfish grouper bass and snapper. All right okay. This is like the third time in three weeks yet my Well no hold on. Hold on you weren't eating. It and i wasn't going. Ooh i hate fish. I'm telling you that it's an inexpensive fish which is great. You said you said yuck. I said what i was making. You said how you hadn't said yum. So i said i'm excited. I'm making a fish tonight. And i'm still excited. I'm not gonna let you duck it. I know i'm not trying to. I was worried about the smell and there. But now i'm over. It is going to be great speaking of animals. This is jane goodall episode. Oh my god. I'm glad we weren't talking about steak. That would have been really counter or bush meat. What's that that's eating of primates. people do. Yeah well we're we're meat is really scarce they will be primates. Primates are supposed to taste terrible yet because isn't isn't the cause so muscley. It's that we're so tendency. I guess we taste early rubber rubber band the guerrillas. What my anthro teacher. John barker told me it's arm of. She had tried by hope. She hadn't tried any primate. I started to make a joke. But then i stopped. What did you say. Is that what armie hammer told you. Oh that's a topical. Joe topical joke but i have very mixed feelings on that whole thing. Minor mixed minor very very clear. Yeah i know. I can assume what yours are. Mine are pretty much what yours are. I think well. I don't know all the details. I don't wanna like get it. Let's just take the thing we're talking about. Which is the part. We understand is that he had written Sexual text messages expressing a desire to eat somebody And it was. We were told it was consensual right. That's understanding and i have no problem with anybody's weird sexual fantasy. I have a big problem with someone eating. somebody buck. Yeah you can have as kinky of thoughts as you want. Your partner wants to pretend that you're gonna eat each other. What the fuck does that have to do with any of a i. I agree. I thought it was extreme. What was happening if it was consensual. If it wasn't and he was like harassing people and trying to tell them that he wanted to eat them like mate. That's a different story. But that doesn't seem like that was the case. But i don't know well we can get into a much like that's an easy position for us to take. I think the harder one is. I do believe part of the issue is that it was consensual. And that some of these gales now regret it and say there was a power imbalance and now they don't. They're not happy that they participated in that and that's that's a really tricky subject that i have probably bad opinion on. I don't think we can function as a society. If you can retract consent. I just don't i actually don't think it can function if you can tell someone to their face. Yes i consent and then later say no. I don't consent that's no but it's if you feel like you have to say yes. It's way more complicated. But in this case. I don't think he had power. It wasn't like he was employing these people or he was no but i think people will argue that. Because someone's famous that they have a power imbalance over anyone else. And that's i don't drink. I don't think that would hold up. If that person literally had power like could control their job or their wellbeing in some ways. I don't know if if just saying that. That person's famous gives them power. Doesn't i don't think that really holds any water. They actually have power over you whereas bosses and stuff like that do yeah. I guess i'm just saying if we live in a society were consent can be retracted than if someone gives you consent real time in very genuinely and honestly earnestly you then have to say no. You don't like how do you proceed in life in a paradigm. Where if someone tells you they want to do something and you do with them. You're supposed to what assume their consent isn't you. That also feels weird and controlling and dismissive and will no. I think you just have to be cognizant of the relationships you pursue if you're pursuing one with your employees dull because you never know what is happening there. Oh yeah employer employee. Of course. But i'm talking just to people to people me. They have a relationship. And the guy says i want to be kinky and do sem. Yeah and the person says i do. I'd like to try that. And then they didn't enjoy it. Yeah and then later. They say i retract consent. I was forced. I think these cases are a little more nuance in that. I don't know enough about the armie hammer until like really say i don't think him. Being famous is gives him power personally unless he unless they were like actresses and he was calling them in for meetings and stuff like that. Well that'd be grody. Ah yeah. But i i. Don't people have kinky bucks. But i don't want him to really anyone no. Nobody should eat anyone. Like women have rape fantasies and they work out rape fantasies with their partners. They don't want to be raped. Yeah that's fine if they want to express that fear and that way. Yeah but they don't wanna be raped so you could be working out this thing that yeah you wanna be consumed. What's deeper than it. I think if you wanna get emotional about it is like i think the statement is. I'm so into you. That i would consume me and i would never wanna consume a person but i'm so into you i will ask you. That's the benign version of it right because these texts were explicit. They were dark dark by to make you horny forum doubt it did. Make me like whoa this. That's a lot. Yeah yeah. I guess the only thing i can see with what i could see happening. That's uncomfortable is if i was flirting texting with someone and it was like really fun and playful and we were like days in and we were really into it and then it took a quick turn into something very dark. That would be uncomfortable. Like it would really. It would be hard. Although of course. I'd have to say like oh i'm not into that. Yeah but it but if you wrote back yeah i wanna eat your spleen you know. What on earth is the other person's supposed to assume others. If that happened to you that exact same thing you would just not respond. Probably when it got weird or you might even say. I don't wanna eat anyone. And i don't want to be eating whatever you wouldn't then think i should embarrass this person like i should tell people i would not. I would not unless. I was really feeling threatened in some way or like if something was getting out of control there is not. I wouldn't want to embarrass someone. But i would potentially need to say something to other people if it was getting out of hand if i felt in danger threatened or harassed him can we role play. And i'm going to do this. I'm going to go somewhere where i would have to put up a red flag. Okay okay okay. Hey what are you doing. i'm organizing. Oh you're in her house your house yet. What are you wearing face slightly. I'm wearing a sweatshirt and thick socks. No pants is what going right. That's so kinky to where big thick socks and no pants. I'd love to bring over fifteen pounds of cod. Stink up your kitchen and take them socks off once. It's nice instinctive in there. And then i would go. I do not consent to this way. You said it. I was doing was painting one where i would have to. Oh that was. Were you you. When i was wearing the sweatshirt and i was organizing all i didn't. I didn't know that i wouldn't have been organizing sweatshirt with no pants on. I was getting. I wanted to send the texts that i would have sent up a flare. You wouldn't like it if someone's going to bring a lot of cod over thirteen. Fourteen pounds of cod really stink up the place and then work those socks and then tie the socks around. Really what would you say. You wouldn't just say. I'll if it'd be really nice. Yeah you'd ha- you would be cognizant of the person's feelings i'm also i'm also radical. I i would probably go along with anything. Just see what this whole thing's about. I guess that's where things get a little tricky. Because what if like what if i was texting with someone and then they took it to really dark place really playful and i guess you could think for a bit that it was still like you could think for a while it was still playful in until you're like oh shit no it's not but i've already been sort of playing along because i thought it was that now it's not now i have to say no i don't like it but i did play along for a bit. Yeah but like so. what so. All that is is like it's flirting. That didn't pan out like it's like when someone goes up says what's your name at the bar and then you these corny. And you don't like it ends like so it's just like this escalate this. It doesn't click for you and that's that yeah. That's true that like a moral issue. It's just like oh we're not compatible in the fantasy thing you you've got all this fisher trying on load and you want wanna cook it at my house and i'm not going to be able to truthfully say i want to live out this fantasy with you. Jane goodall forging jiangsu connect. You deserve so much more than that. It was a natural flow as a ding ding. Ding okay. what. We both really loved about jane goodall is. She's kind of taken this not by her choice. She has the role of like queen of the planet and yet she's so spunky. That was my favorite. I know i loved when she told you you. You are capable of taking care of her stuffed animal chip because you called it as head exactly like you can't take care of it if you don't even know difference between a chimp and a bear. You can't have it. That's that's why she'd be fine with us talking about the texting. Yeah she probably like it. Maybe she'll leave. Maybe you'll even get a hold of association. Voice her opinion on it. I think i know our opinion. Well no. I definitely don't know her opinion on the sex part but she's definitely not into eating humans or primates or animals at all. Well we also know her opinion on the sexting that was involving bringing fish over. Because she's a vegetarian she would not want you to bring fish over and cook it now under chicanes as much about fish. Well she said the only thing she could put possibly what maybe insects dan. Yeah my ding ding. I don't know. I just wanted to say 'cause insects in sex. Oh my god oh my gosh okay. So how times more harmful is methane gas then. Co two. we're yeah because bills book. Yes how to avoid climate disaster. Okay i'll read. This is from unicef you. Tell me if your number in your head is different from bills book. There's like they go around but go ahead okay. Methane is a powerful greenhouse gas with one hundred year old global warming potential twenty five times that of co two measured over a twenty year period. Methane is eighty four times more potent as a greenhouse gas than co two about sixty percent of global methane emissions are due to human activities. What is bill. Say i think he says twenty eight. And i had heard thirty two. That was another number that everyone agreed upon. But i think where it gets. Tricky is the only upside methane is that it doesn't stay in atmosphere. Nearly as long as carbon so carbon dioxide has a really long half life whereas methane dozen so even though it's heating it more it'll go way quicker but the thing that was really that we read in the book nitrous oxide which is also a by product that is like two or three hundred times warming co two. We're going to talk to him. Kelly this week right. Yeah got so scared. I'm so scared. Ding ding ding. There's a really funny friends moment. Where ross can't flirt. And he's trying to flirt with a girl who's delivering his and he actually. I wonder if this doesn't hold up and twenty twenty one. Nothing does continue keeps calling shirts. He gets having her calm back so he can keep practice flirting. He can try to get better each time and he starts talking about gas and how different gases smell smells really funny. Oh i love that show. I'm gonna start getting. oh yeah episodes. Are there two hundred. Release that well in all. How many seasons was it. It was ten but in season five. They hit one hundred. But then there's fewer episodes in the later seasons. I bet it's not quite one hundred. Well it's well. There's ten seasons in they average twenty twenty episodes of season which they had to have two hundred hundred and thirty six. Yeah was gonna say probably ever like the the normal order was probably twenty four and they might have cut it to twenty or twenty two in the latter seasons they never. There's no way they ever went under twenty eighteen eighteen shortest eighteen season ten. Okay at best season nine is eighteen. I wonder if that was because people are doing movies. Why on earth would that be was a cash. Cow twenty four so ten was the shortest and that was eighteen. I think they were ready to be done. And they just the network wanted it so bad that they were and they're getting paid a million dollars an episode each. That's pretty good money. Yeah it's it's pretty good is okay. That's really all i had for jane. No kidding methane. Yeah because she. She knows her stuff. She knows her. Shit yeah i mean. There was a question of how many roots and shoots but she. She explained why we don't know that 'cause they're just kinda sprouting up all over the place. So i couldn't really check a campus. Yeah very womp us. Very skadden compass extra wa-was in pretty darned scan. Scotty all right well. This was fun. And then i'll be home. In two clicks to clicks away. Put the pedal down get right home. I'm driving a hell cat. Durango some sitting on about seven hundred ten horse. Pike got sick. I really get up those mountain roads so it snowy it sure is so you can't go that fast right pretty fast. It's got all wheel drive very stable. Really good car okay. I got here and the weather was worse than it will be when i go home. And what are rob and katherine driving. Rob's driving his huge sprinter van that's all decked out call it's very cool and and just throw is driving a subaru outback. Which i know. He's not thrilled about. Oh it's not his pick no he to likes horsepower. Horsepower added he's a cowboy Yes yeah. I'm the steel horsey rights. Remember we interviewed john. Jovi never forget. Jj alright i love you have fun cooking your fish cam.

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