Crowdsourcing to Improve Digital Health Experiences with Denise Silber, Founder at Doctors 2.0 & U
Welcome to the outcomes rocket podcast where we inspire collaborative thinking improved outcomes and business success with today's most successful and inspiring healthcare leaders and influencers and now your host so marquesses. Welcome welcome back to the podcast. Did i have the privilege of hosting denise cedar. She is the c._e._o. Of doctors two point oh and you driven by passion to improve the healthcare through better use of digital innovation denise founder and president of us. You'll strategies and of the doctors two point. Oh a new conference series has a deep vision asian and understanding of the opportunities and challenges of digital health with twenty plus years of experience. She's a global thought leader and social media influence or based in in paris. The niece contributes her unique experience as both a strategic digital health consultant and coach in marketing communication and as a digital health keynote speaker m._c. and conference curator multicultural multi-lingual. The niece was one of the rare americans to receive the legion of honor from the french government for her work. In international e-health she deploys our skills in strategy communication events training and writing to help digital it. All projects pushed forward. If there's anybody that can help push your project forward it's denise and so it's a pleasure to have her here on the podcast with us and and <hes> with that i wanna go ahead and open mic to you denise. Welcome thank you so much. It was really lovely to seek out for this interview in looking forward to it. Yeah me too denise niece did did i leave anything out of your intro that you wanna share with the listeners about you think that was already quite nice so let's just talk into into a thank you for the opportunity. That sounds good. So why did you decide to get into the healthcare sector so it was a combination of wanting to and finding the right opportunity at right moment. Few people know that very early on is a teen. I was considering becoming a doctor and then i went to an open house and an hospital and realized that i didn't think i would have the stamina and strength to be surrounded by people with at the time what i perceived as such suffering munger ability and later when i was at a couple of times in in my life my first job after college which was with the u._s. Foreign service and i was put in public health physician visiting rural medical centers listened city hospitals. I was very interested in trying to help from a policy standpoint and then when i was getting my m._b._a. One of if the offers i received was to go to work for a leading pharmaceutical company and i thought well this is it. This is my opportunity to observe a little bit more closely. What's going coming on in the healthcare system. Wow so it's like one thing after another whether it be through a hospital or a pharma company you just sort of kept this healthcare thing just kept popping up in your life. Yes it was unavoidable. Pops up in in everyone's life although although perhaps in mine a bit more as child because there were the previous generation and the generation before presence of physicians in part of mike inside of my family these people were looked upon as heroes the other side yeah that makes a lotta sense and so you took the opportunity the and fast forward to today while i mean you've done so many great things got this conference where you bring people together on on this theme of you know just being digitally focused. What would you say hot topic that needs to be on health. Leaders agendas today is how are you guys thinking and approaching it well. The hot topic would would be the flexibility that leaders need to have terms of planning for the future in a world where i believe that the health system the treatments in the health system won't be structured in the same way i just came back from the second edition of the virtual medicine conference and when i see the enthusiasm and results for therapeutic virtual reality and as well the fact that in general general term of digital therapeutics is catching on and use of digital for prevention for prevention that up until now has not been successful and and that all of these things take us out of as well at least in part from the physical buildings then i think i begin to see what i we had hoped to see which is that when people are thinking of the healthcare system they think simply bringing solutions to people people wouldn't medical problems and not well. I've got these hospitals have got these healthcare professionals. What am i gonna do with them. That's not the best perspective for how do we organize ourselves to provide the best healthcare to people yeah and and it's happening and i think now more than ever you have have the use of of digital technologies telemedicine present and i think it's important that we focus on. How do we stay focus on our core permission. Give us an example of either something you or or one of your clients has has gone through or done to achieve better outcomes uh-huh or improve healthcare well. I'm thinking of a <hes> a study that was done by hospital in strasbourg zone out success france with an artificial intelligence consulting company who is a partner and this study was able to demonstrate in respect to mammograms the usefulness of the mammogram in the two populations who were observed retrospectively who would not been in a study but because they're able to use software that could gather data that was unstructured that wasn't even a fistula. Can you think of is the electronic medical record but that could have been in notes or any other way. They will demonstrate that women who came in regularly regularly for mammograms had better life expectancy than those who did not that is certainly one way to not put an end but to bring a solid argument to the debate about whether we are excessively exposing people to x-rays and taking their time and creating inexpensive me there is a debate about women in mammograms and you feel that in the end the data showed food that is actually good and the quality of life as well as the health span of an individual is better here because of that and if we can say that so i have two types of professional activity or they're very interrelated one is the consulting on communications aspect of something and the other is making events for medical professionals better so a second example example of outcomes is the fact that i was an important part as the moderator of the patient panel at the virtual medicine the conference because there i was able to put the patients at ease so that people who are not ordinarily in the business of speaking to to a professional audience this was c._m._e. Accredited then we're able to really explain how they had gone from pain or anxiety to state of peacefulness and resolution of their problem through the use of love virtual reality to me. That's why. I know that i'm repeating what i mentioned earlier. What should people be on the lookout for but up until now and i think this is important in distinction digital has basically been putting information in the right place. The example that i gave about the mammographic mammograms is is that case the individual patient isn't going to feel better because they took mammogram. That was a demographic study that overall tells public health policy makers to do but in this case with virtual reality it is the first time ember that a digital tool shoes right directly to the minden face if the patient yeah how to feel better and right away and they all still that after doing this for a while they can actually get themselves into that state. It's good teaching tool. That's that's <hes>. There's a lot of promise to that and you know to your point unlike the more traditional brick and mortar solutions the the v._r. Set could be shipped to a patient at their own home and they could do it from their own home. They absolutely are expected to it might be a hospitalized patient because that was one of the cases as somebody who had massive pain do irritable bowel syndrome disease and to was hospitalized but then used it at home additionally. I don't know that there have been studies using things like google cardboard or other very inexpensive tools but it will work with with that as well. That's awesome. That's fascinating. Have you ever put one of these on and experienced that yourself absolutely so several times unfortunately. I can't say that i did it well. I'm glad i can say that. I did not do it from a from a suffering from a medical standpoint. I one that i had tried was the glass elevator where about three hundred sixty point from inside the elevator and depending on how fast accelerate your head in the direction that you go. That's what you see see. Now it so happens. I am not. I don't get worried when i get into an elevator in one of those hotels has the glass elevators but i definitely felt out that acceleration. I felt exhilaration. I also tried one which was conference person. I go to events as well to know order to bring exciting things to other to the more traditional medical conferences so i went for a number of times two games for health europe. Branch switches often held in the netherlands and at that one i some of their games are are virtual. I tried on one that that had to do with physical therapy where you would see shapes like shiny shapes on a dark background and you would have to move your gaze. He's to shoot them down by doing this day. It would disappear and that gives you physical therapy that is measurable because when you tell somebody do this movement forty five times they may not count them not count right but you can see it with three game method and the game would end when you've done your your your dose went right now. Cedars sinai in los angeles. I also tried on one where you are <hes> in in the body of a person with dementia with form of dementia and so you're in your house and you're seeing people come but you're you're sort of not seeing them right now. I don't know how perfectly they imitate because they cannot be in the head of the demented person right to know but it was a very distorted compared to how i see things the sound and the view were sort of coming in and out were incomplete and a bit scary so those are different purposes that was to train out care professional empathy. Guess yeah yeah as very interesting among these different applications and sneak that you you've tried the different ones and i must say that i tried one at our own. It's something i had organized where that particular model and this was a couple of years ago. I can't remember exactly which model was was not for me. That was a model where there must have been a problem of delay between in some way of of what delay of what you see may meet as he sick right away and i saw so they're improving that yeah so i i'm always interested in seeing it's super interesting and what if finals interested thank you for sharing that <hes> you know the most interesting part is gosh. The different applications shins for virtual reality. You walk us through an empathy with the alzheimer patients. I love the one where also the person can look town and st their avatars limb because this can be that can look and then that can project to them that they can walk that feeling right. Wow yeah that's so interesting. I i had a chance to do was meditation and then they just kinda place me in a forest. It was really an in by the way i was stressed before i did it and i'm like let me try this and it really did relax me and then the other one that i tried it was a training orthopedic training how to use the <unk> surgery fascinating stuff. The applications are plentiful and folks. You probably are thinking wow gosh. What else do they use this on and that is a good question because there's a lot of things at v._r. Is being used on so appreciate you bring that to the conversation denise might and i thought of something that might be that goes back to early questions but it's in relation to this instead. Is there anything anything hasn't been said about you. I own a three. D version of myself says that that has to do with digital well. I wouldn't zinn barcelona on on a personal visit with friends when i walked past this three d. printing store and i saw that it was full of tiny figurines that people purchase just some different size so i stood on a desolate turns aren't they took four thousand photos in like something like seven minutes and i have this figuring. I just did it out of my digital curiosity. I wanted to see if this could really look like myself but i talked with them and they produce ears for a local surgeon out of their own material but it enables the surgeon to then make one out of the material that he needs to use to create an ear for example for a person who is missing one. I can imagine that it could as well given you the body sense to a person who feels off balance or or whatever i just wanted to the thrill of it no. It's very interesting interesting. So how big is the figuring. Oh maybe five six inches. It's it's it's very small very small. I remember as a little kid. I wanted a superman. Dan rea supergirl figuring now you have it. Did you put a little k- bonnet not yet but that's a good idea. I love it. No that's really great <unk> so denise. You've done some some really interesting work in your career and what you're doing today. What would you say one thing that setback setback that you had that you learned a lot from that's major. You've been stronger better well. I firmly believe that failure is always useful unless unless it's a failure that puts an end totally to anything you could ever do again. I mean physically it would ever that. There's no way to start again so it's true that <hes> none of the failures really were a total setback. An example would be my initial relation to startups. I joined one the earliest second opinion medical startups in the u._s. Nearly twenty years yeah twenty years ago nineteen ninety nine and we didn't. I didn't get to reach the milestones and get the financing that we needed there. It was the first internet bubble at the time and it was so difficult because if you had really walk on eggs in relation to getting a second opinion who is it perceived as versus and that with the original opinion you know putting the doctors ability in question a whereas these are very complex situations and actually it's more likely than not that you'd have as many opinions opinions at least variations based on the number of people that you would ask so when that didn't work out. I accepted another concision with <hes> the very first surgical online community deep and that didn't work out either they also didn't have their funding because it was too soon and so i learned from those experiences to be very wary of these great ideas because you need enough enough people. It's it's a delicate balance between you. Don't want to launch something that there are fifty million of them and this brings nothing on the other hand. If you're too soon you won't have enough supporters orders to make it viable. I have a certain distance with respect to founders of startups who could come across the same. This is a really amazing idea. It's it's going to work guy. I've seen from the inside how things don't necessarily work even if they seemed logical yeah. I think that's a that's a really great. Call out. The jason speaks to your experience. Every great idea is a great idea until it's not and it's definitely a great that you mentioned that something for the listeners. Keep in mind if you're looking at something that seems exciting. You gotta really vetted out. What would you tell listeners the niece. How do you tell you know it may seem like a great. Idea may seem logical but what's that thing that you see say. That's that's not well. It depends ants on what market you're after. If you're going to need you would know this well. If you're going after market with reimbursement then you have to wonder what time line is this company or service going to get the proof needs to submit to regulatory authority and candy last passed through that that is a key question because originally many digital inventors weren't thinking of going down that regulatory path and the people realize that because health care functions big time based on reimbursement you have to that and that may well welby question. You can't answer that you might need to show to people use to trials because they can say well. You're going to need x. number of users in two two groups and to show a statistical difference and you can start to wonder whether this service will show that relative great caller. What's one of your proudest leadership experiences that you've had to date overall was in creating a movement and i would say a happiness appreciation through the events that that i've either created or assisted with and in particular particular giving patients voice so when i first launched doctors to point out was a standalone conference now. It's an embedded session in another conference back at the beginning of this decade that is ending. It was very rare to have organized a conference. That's where you would have several patients speaking to treat them like a speaker to have them to give them transport to ask them for their biography their photo photo to give them keynote position and and they all <hes> if i were to ask them but most spontaneously said that taking the stand and in front of an audience where there were senior people healthcare professionals in manager's listening to them not only as appear but listening to them as as a speaker did more for them than in certain cases there medicine which is another thing that i should mention in looking at the the healthcare system for the future the idea of looking at the whole person and not just one particular medical condition which is very difficult for a professional fashioned to do because they're led to practice through a specialty if not a sub specialty but the joy goosebumps of seeing the patient pull pull out the lessons of their medical and digital experience because all those that we invited had both they had a medical condition to which they had somehow contributed in terms of solution along with the healthcare professional by using the using new technologies the internet in app or something in some way to improve their their state denise. What inspired you to start doctors two point. Oh one day a few couple of years before that i found myself organizing as a volunteer and event that turned into three hundred people i had been an expert bert for this french commission that was trying to determine what to do with the quality certification for <hes> web for web stuff websites and i and created an association to discuss this with stakeholders to go beyond what the government was doing and healthcare in particular in general it was for quality of healthcare. Okay got one of the things that i had done early on was. I was invited to many working groups about the quality of information n._f._l. Care information and so that led me around the world but i did this in the u._s. Very european countries <unk> around the world that did not do this in languages in asia for but eurocentric remark however i did participate in so many of these reflections on what to do do with information that hasn't been vetted by medical publisher that i wound up creating a symposium and a large company gave us a huge auditorium meriem and it showed up and said wait a second. Why don't i take this. This might clearly. This is a gift to know how to get people to attend things. Why don't i make this into a business. I then discovered that in terms of the intersection between events anson digital that those events attract predisposed people people who are ready early adopters and sint including doctors just to winnow so my goal which is has always been to convince the decision makers healthcare professionals. I believe that if tomorrow there were an uprising the healthcare professionals saying give us more digital gives us more patient engagement the things that i believe in we would have no problem it would happen because authorities already want to work along with the doctors. It isn't happening because not only do they have burn out but they're not given the opportunities to learn about these things and so that's why i'm still interested in the event world but i wanna be lodged will air the doctors and other healthcare professionals are really going. The not in private private isolated events for i love it. I love it. Thank you for sharing that the knees and what would you say today's today's an exciting project. You're working on well. It's that i've always got more than one thing going on. It's a getting the word out and identifying events where i can bring this expertise of digital and and the patient and <hes> i'm meeting next with a law firm law firms like to promote their expertise by organizing events so hopefully we're going to put together a psycho that reflects these interests and secondly i it's just that's been proved that there is a hospital somewhere in france in a very small smallish town that would like me to participate in there. I'm i'm not sure if i should say digital transformation but in using the power of collective intelligence inspiration to create new ideas working directly with the healthcare professionals from all over the hospital. It's a fairly large hospital several hundred beds and they we need to make the atmosphere more conducive to better recruitment so i'm going to do a lot of brainstorming but these people of what they they would like to see in the way of novelty and i know that or innovation in some of that will definitely be digital. Some of it may be related to exchanges with patients. I'm looking four to this project. Which will i guess start soon and run for several months fascinating denise year always up to something really cool so <hes> <hes> because i'm excited if i can make a spontaneous answer to question. You haven't asked i i i would recommend that people do something started doing a little while ago. Which is a daily gratitude workbook or notebook at night. When the days ending i just right down very quickly. Some bullet points of what i'm grateful for and i think that this gives you a view. When you look around yourself you see the good stuff. I love that yeah. That's a great. It's a great tip the niece so i personally in my morning routine right when i wake up the first thing that i do every day. Eh is go through several things that i'm grateful for. I don't write them down so i think that's a good next step for me and listeners. It is a big deal. You know if you come from a place of gratitude versus a place of expectation. It's a completely different. World and denise is obviously a testament to that so appreciate you sharing that the needs thank you <hes> getting close to the end. I've got a lightning round a couple of questions for you. There followed by a book that you recommend listeners ready. What's the best way to improve healthcare outcomes. Ask the patient. What is the biggest mistake or pitfall to avoid isolating the individual into their different parts rather than looking at the person is whole. How do you stay relevant. Despite constant change it's about what you are exposed to so reading material and challenging yourself by meeting with people that are different from yourself. What is one area of focus that drives all else in your work listening in denise these next two or more on a personal note for the listeners to get to know you. What is your number. One health habit the number. One thing that i've learned as a new habit is how to breathe in breathe better. Thanks to using digital watch. I love it and what is your number. One success habit get outside. I think that we spend too much time at our desks risks. I agree with you. I think that's a good one to get with people. I met my best woman. I'm in an exchange with people that's really good. What book book would you recommend to the listeners then he's so i have two books to recommend one for your whole life that is called the art and practice of loving living heartfelt. Yes by frank andrews p._h._d. I did this book within a course its own line called love the factor for social justice you can find from stanford inferred encore sarah and in short term sapienze by you low harari which gives you a new way of looking at the history <music> of the earth some great recommendations nason listeners you could get links to those books as well as a full transcript of our interview with denise piece but outcomes rocket that health and in the search bar type in denise sober it's s. I l. e. r. or type in basile strategies. That's b. a. s. I l. strategies. You'll find this podcast there with everything. You need to take action on the things you learned today so denisa before we we conclude i'd love if you could just share a closing thought and then the best place of the listeners could get in touch with you or learn more about your work. Closing thought is that when must only the main optimistic sundays. You have a breath in yourself. There's something to be done the great message and if the listeners wanted to learn more about you and your at work what would be the best place for them to <hes> check it out well they can follow me on linked in under my name and they can also check out the doctors twenty dot dot com website on its blog and doctors twenty dot com yet doctors to dot com beautiful and we'll of course if they follow me on twitter twitter. I'd be very happy that south to open a health to paris doctors to allow dot com will leave those lakes in the show notes. If today's interview resonated with view and you want to check out this this awesome conference that the nieces put together. It's now embedded in part of a larger one as well as her work. Follow her on twitter will leave all all those things in the show notes denise just want to say thank you so much really have <hes> enjoyed our talk today thank you. You're doing a wonderful job yourself in presenting all these people to your listeners thanks for listening to the outcomes rocket podcast be shoot visit us on on the web at www dot outcomes rocket dot com for the show notes resources inspiration and so much more.