Atheist Experience 23.22 2019-05-26 with Matt Dillahunty & Don Baker
The mosquitoes in their friends planning a little get together in your yard. So the Home Depot has Memorial Day savings on cutter. Backyard bug control spray for yards by one now and get cutters outdoor fog or for patios free, the spray protects your loan against mosquitoes, and other insects, all summer. Just connect to your garden hose, add the free fog or to protect your patio or deck, and you'll be ready for summer. Today's the day for doing with big savings on cutter backyard, but control only at the Home Depot. More saving. More doing. Limit two per customer. Don. Loud. I'm not too bad. Welcome to the experience, where live today is Sunday may twenty six two thousand nineteen unless you're watching it later and money's Matt delanie, you are done Baker. Hey, good to be here. We are here and normally Don will show up with a failure and I did any did. And after some discussion we're going to postpone that failure because Don walk should be hosting the show next week with Phil, and you may have time to get there. We're not sure yet, but we'll see. But there's something that I actually need to address because I promised, I would, and there were bunch of questions that came in. I'm going to try to not let this take up too much time. But since the goal is to get people good information and answer some questions. I'm going to do that. Some of this was addressed on talk even earlier, I was on with Jamie. And we got a call about the issue. A lot of you may not even know what the hell's going on. I don't we had a scandal. Yeah. So for those who've been watching. We had not only Alex O'Connor on Stephen Woodford, who's also known as rationality rule was on the, the show two weekends in a row while he was kind of quasi Keishing here in Austin. And after the first visit to the show there were some people who express some very serious concerns about a video that Stephen put up that was perceived fairly accurately as potentially transphobic, and it was about fairness in sport. Yeah. And then not really an atheist talk. Most of this has nothing. Well, none of this has anything to do with atheism, but it is part of the community, and as a as a community of humanness as a community of people who are trying to build a community where people feel welcome. It was most definitely an issue. So I'm going to give you the rundown for my perspective, because what I've seen happening is a lot of people, I've seen some people who literally don't know dick about what's going on decide to go out and create some drama on the interwebs people who have nothing to do with the ACA or the rationally rule or the trans community have decided to go out and throw their two cents in, which is problematic. And it leads to acusations that so, and so's the transphobic, or in one case, there was somebody who I evidently irritated, six or eight months ago who's decided to pronounce a white supremacist, even though that has nothing to do with any of this. I I'm not. But how would I prove it? So let me tell you what happened. I left the American atheist convention in Cincinnati. And. To Dallas Texas for the faithless form about I got their day or two early. So we could watch the in game premier and that was where I got to meet and hang out with a bunch of the YouTube community that was there for that conference, including Stephen now, Stephen, and I had met in person once before briefly, which I sorry, Stephen, I, honestly, don't recall. But I'll take his word for it. And we'd had some discussions online as well. And yes, I can read, I'm getting to it. It's literally the second thing in my notes. But thank you. When I'm telling you all this. It's important for you to know I am not the ACA. I don't speak on behalf the ACA anything I said shouldn't be construed as the position of the. I'm also not the eighth east experience. I'm the host of it. I make some decisions regarding the show, but I'm not speaking on behalf of anybody, but me and everything that I'm going to tell you has to by definition becoming from my perspective, and I'm not going to be telling you too much about how other people feel unless I've actually spoken to them. I got there. I met the gang we sat around and talked at one of the first things that somebody said is Steven A released video about transforming in sports, and it was being viewed as transphobic. And there was somebody who had released a takedown video saying, here's the bad arguments that were made and everything else, and it was becoming a thing. And there were discussions about whether or not this was targeted at doing harm to fables for or whatever else. But that wasn't my concern. I wanted to find out what was actually going on over the next couple of days before the faithless forum thing, there were several conversations with Stephen about this, and not just with me. But with other people who were there, too, and I can tell you that every single time this came up, Stephen had exactly the same response. I fucked up. I said things that were insensitive. I understand why people are thinking, they're transphobic. I made factual mistakes. And when I get back to the UK, I'm going to be posting an apology in a correction in an update to my position on the issue. But you know what that wasn't good enough for me? And that wasn't good enough for the other people at faith forum, who I want to give. Massive props to for the way they've handled all of this, merely saying, I fucked up and I'm gonna policies isn't enough. If this is going to be an issue, there's no way, I can, you know, put somebody who's toxic on the show until this is resolved. So over the next day, or so we had a number of conversations until I was satisfied that he at least mostly understood what, what the problems were both with regard to the facts. And with regard to the trans community's perception of it. I understand he didn't and still doesn't fully grasp this from the perspective of the transfer. And nor do I we can't, I don't have that lived experience the best. I can do is listen and try to empathize. Because this hadn't become a big issue when we had Stephen on the show, the first time I decided we weren't going to talk about it. We talked about talking about it. We talked about coming out and saying, hey, there's been, you know, kerfluffle about your video, and would you like to dress, it says, Stephen could say, yes, I made a mess. Steak and I'm gonna be apologizing correcting it but we decided I decided this was Stephen screwed up when he made the video I screwed up when I decided to not have talk about it. The decision was made to not talk about it because this show has a big audience. And I didn't want to give the problem more legs than it already had because I was confident that it was going to be at least mostly if not totally resolved after he got back home. That was a mistake, and for that, I apologize, especially if I had known that the board of directors was going to be releasing a statement at some point, we definitely would have talked about it on the show. But there were a number of communication breakdowns that happened. So that I didn't know that that was going to happen. I understand you're not privy to my private conversations until I tell you about him. And so there were plenty of people who didn't know that all these conversations was going on that Stephen was in town for a week and a half and much of the time was actually spent talking about this. You know. Yeah, they did some fun stuff. And yeah. We talked about other projects, but there was a lot of discussion about how. What to apologize for what needs to be corrected. And that led up to the second Sunday where Stephen was on the show again. But what happened is showed up the studio. It was going to be me. And Phil, who was vice president of the we had a conversation, the back and I said, how do you feel about all this, you know, always thinking maybe having Stephen on? And at this point, nobody on the board and talk to us or relate any concerns about this as a as a potential issue, and I'm sitting there with, at least, well, the two members of the board in the president, vice president. But that's a different issue. But Phil said, hey, look, I have to go, so why don't I do like half the show in Stephen camman for the second half. And you know that was his decision. And so we did that. And then Stephen left and flew back to the United Kingdom, thinking, everything was okay. So for my perspective. There have been lots of conversations with someone, I'd gotten to know someone I genuinely view. Him somebody who was and is supportive of trans rights, who had a rather. Pedantic view of fairness in sports us to the point where he couldn't even see how this or was unable to see at the time how this was going to affect the broader trance community at that was definitely one of Stephen's blind spots, there from my perspective, again, giving you my perspective, we did the second show Steven leaves thinks that he's going back to everything being fine lands. And UK's getting ready to start on his apology video and everything else when the list of statement, that has been portrayed as them, denouncing Stephen and apologizing forever having them on the show. Now, the language of that statement isn't even really being fairly construed by some people go you called, Stephen transphobic. No, they said that what he said was transphobic. And there's distinction between saying use said or did something that's transphobic, and you are a transphobic. But sometimes those distinctions get lost, especially when people get heated. And when somebody like St.. Even who thinks he's just spent two weeks of his vacation having long conversations about something he screwed up. And now thinks that everything's gonna be fine. He lands, and the announcement comes out that is now either the hottest fire in front of him, or it's gasoline poured on existing fire. And so he immediately addresses that from the standpoint of the trans community who not privy to any of these private conversations. This is a situation where somebody said some stuff that was terribly transphobic poorly researched that portrayed tired old arguments about trans people and trans rights, and especially pertains to sports in a way that, oh my God. Do we have to address this again? Why didn't this guy is research? And then he was platform d- multiple times by the ACA. And when they complained about the ACA apologized, and then the ACA shortly after decided to retract that apology and issue, a much more clear statement. And the problem is, is that when stuff like this happens, there's. Nothing that anybody's ever going to be able to do that's gonna make things really better or make people really understand. So Stephen video was immediately accused of carrying more about, you know, him being slighted by the than he does the trans community and maybe he does I don't think it was unexpected or unreasonable that somebody would land and feel backstabbed, or, or blindsided and react to that I because from his perspective, the other thing is heady they're already been partially taken care of already posted that he was gonna polish is he was had started working on the apology since then he's posted the apology, which I'll get to in a second and taking the monetization from the original video and donated that to a trans charity, also he was getting feedback from multiple people, including different opinions from within the trans community. So there were trans people were telling him. Hey, I video you know, wasn't transphobic or it wasn't that bad. And there were other people were saying it was the most awful thing ever, or something close to that level of hyperbole. And when you're in that position your. Feedback. That's frustrating when you're getting tons of feedback, it's really hard to act properly in, in a quick fashion. So we, we as humans tend to cut our friends and our family slack, people think that, oh, Matt Scott bias in this because Stevens, his friend well to be fair. I don't think it would been. I don't think it'd been fair to call Stephen friends until at least partway through that week that he was here, because we hadn't spent that much time talking to each other prior to that, you know, an online discussion or whatever, but I won't claim that I'm not bookfest what I will say, is that I tend to have friends for good reasons and I genuinely think that he's a good person, and it's worth pointing out that so is everybody else involved in this these at every step of the way you're talking about good people who had the best intentions, who either were acting without sufficient information, or in some cases with potentially misinformation. My perspective coming into that show was, hey, this is going. To be taken care of soon, I have confidence at Stevens going to do this. Let's not give it any more attention than we need. He'll go back and make the apology. And we'll deal with that afterwards. That was a mistake as I've already ignored acknowledged and apologized for after this things start blowing up. There's people who are quick to label anybody. Everybody involved as wrong or transphobic, and the real take that are want wanna put on this. Yeah. I know you guys have no idea. What was going on behind the scenes? There were people who were like, oh, the these YouTubers are just in it for drama, and clicks when the truth is the people that some of us were working behind the scenes with all voluntarily stayed quiet because they cared about the ACA they cared about making sure that this didn't become a terrible issue that people couldn't recover from they felt sorry for what had happened to the trance community. And most of them had talked to Steven about it. They felt sorry about what had happened to Steven because he was blindsided, they felt sorry about what happened to the ACA. Because there were some bad decisions made these were people who were genuinely doing everything they could to make the best of a really terrible situation. It's possible for people to, to react to things in a way that is completely understandable based on their history, their community. What information they have? And yet that reaction is still wrong. It's understandable, but not necessarily excusable it applies to everybody Steven made a horrible mistake or ten in his original video, but when he was called out in question for it. He was immediately saying, yes. Oh my gosh. That was a mistake. And I shouldn't have said that, and I should have included that clip. But the public hadn't seen this yet this is what he was saying to us, which is why we had confidence in him. And I still have confidence in him over that anybody who reads this me, denouncing Stephen has got the wrong impression, I think it was understandable that the trans community objected to having Stephen on the show completely understandable, given the information. They had and everything else. It makes sense to me. I think it was understandable that the board of directors, as a hitter in response to the objections raised by the trans community reacted and reacted in a way that prompted an apology and something that was perceived as denouncement understandable. I think it was understandable, that I had decided to not talk about the issue on the show. But understandable is not the same as excusable or right. And what we had here were good people trying to do the right thing in a really terrible situation. And a lot of people screwing things up. I was mad at the board of directors because I felt that they blindsided even a little bit. And I was also mad because they made that announcement without ever talking to the host or producer of the show. Now, I acknowledged that's me taking personal offensive something. I'm the host of the show. I made a decision somebody else apologized on my behalf without ever talking to me. I think that is that is almost definitely the wrong way to go about things. If your goal is to get as much information as possible and make good decisions. I don't know how you can make a decision without talking to the people who are actually involved at while that irritated me personally. This is not me getting over. Whatever happened to me is forget about it. It's not a big deal. Everybody will survive and everything to be fine. Stephen released an apology video. There are people who think it was sincere are people who don't that's fine. I was asked this week. What did you think of Stevens apology video, and I pointed out to this person I've thought it was good. I did have problems with it. I did recognize that other people were going to have problems with it because I can at least try to put myself in somebody else's shoes. I'm not going to get it right. Every time I try to listen charitably I try to make sure that we're being diplomatic and understanding. But in the end what I think of Stevens apology. Video does not fucking matter because I wasn't the person being apologized to. I'm not a member of the community that was being apologized to and he wasn't apology Pol jousting on my behalf. So what I think about the apology doesn't Matt. Under the only people whose opinion matters about the apology, our the portion of the trans community that were bothered by what he did. And that's up to each one of them to make. And if they don't have the experience with Stephen that I do to have any confidence in him if their lived experiences, such that they think this is just another example of somebody apologizing because it was going to cost them something that's fine. I don't necessarily think they're right. But they get to do that. Also, I don't get to define who is or isn't a transalate. There were people who are week before this called me a Transall I and week afterwards called me a transport. I get it. I and I'm not just saying that I sincerely get it. Given the information that you had. And what you saw the fact that you are privy to stuff, and maybe even after you hear everything I say today, nothing will change your mind. That's fine. You get to define who you think is or isn't your ally? But it's not gonna stop me from still supporting trans rates. It's not gonna stop me from supporting the community. It's not gonna stop me from being what I think is a simple huge. Honest advocating for people's rights, whether or not somebody else can hates me, considering me ally, or, or has that feeling for anybody else involved, that's up to them. The only reason I'm talking about this because of the decisions that have been made in vacuum or after a handful of people decided to run with their suspicions and start labeling into nounce ING and making a big deal out of something that are making a different big deal than the actual big deal. The actual big deal start all this off is that video and what impact it has on the trans community. The apologies not my call. Ally ship is not my call, but transpeople many of them are in a position where they are like a raw exposed nerve. There has been they've been so absolutely maligned that things that they do that. People will say, oh, that's a gross overreaction. It's still understandable. It's, it's still something that you should expect something you should pay attention to this isn't just and. Issue of they're not just marginalized. They're targeted they're not just being granted in denied rights on the whim of whatever jackass is, is has decided. Oh, let's, let's not let transpeople serve in the military day. Or let's, let's change the marriage laws or anything else. They are one of if not the most vilified marginalized communities on the planet. Right. And if you don't understand what they go through. I'm with you. I can't understand what they go through. But I can at least empathize, and I can at least try to put myself in that position to say, I understand that reaction even if I disagree with even if I think it's wrong, even if I think, oh, you got wounded, and you decided to immediately label everybody else. I still understand it, and I'm not gonna go around at adding fuel to that fire by saying, oh, well, you know you were wrong. You know, I understand how you feel but you were wrong, we have to do a better job and people will believe things because somebody said. It without actually looking into how accurate it is. What was said? How accurate that is? This is the type of thinking that has led to believing the gospel accounts as we talked about on talk. Ethan is the kind of thinking that leads to conspiracy theorist type stuff of I have my suspicions based on my baggage, and I'm going to reach conclusions. I had somebody Email me saying, we'll Matt, if you don't tell us what you think about this. We're just going to have to guess. No. That's not skepticism. When you don't have enough information guessing is not proper skepticism. I get it. I get the motivation to do that. It is natural. It is what we as human beings. Do. Oh, I have this lived experience and I'm going to judge this situation based on my lived experience. And my experience is going to be different from somebody in the trans community and people in the transmitter going to have different lived experiences as well. They're not all in the same boat. They don't all agree on everything. They're not hive mind. You are not the trans community. I am not the trans community. Oh, maybe we should stop pretending. There is a trance community. No, there is. They're real. They are just like everybody else in that they deserve rights and respect as well. Stephen fucked up. But now aged it and that won me over whether or not is apologies gonna for somebody else that's independent from whether or not I'm satisfied that he's working towards being a better person. And I know him to be somebody who supports translates. I have problems with the board of directors did. But I absolutely know that those people on the board of directors. I know I've known some of them for a long time. Some of them are really good friends of mine who I greatly respect, and by the way, who I voted for to return to the board, even though they weren't, I think there was a better way for them to get information and make a decision and I expressed that and I did it privately a lot of these conversations happen in private, and I am key on making sure that these conversations happen in private I because I've watched over and over and over again as our community decides they wanna hash everything out in public, right? Fucking now without having access to information. The YouTubers that we were talking with the faithless form, who decided to stay out of this, and let the ACA business, try to handle, or they try to handle its own business, incorrect, things, wonderful people. There were some other people who are about clicks in drama, people who have nothing to do with any of those who decided. Oh, we're going to come out and make a statement. Ha ha, we'll do a livestream and see if we can get some attention by writing drama, coat-tails. There's not an easy solution any of this good people on all sides made mistakes. I mentioned on on talkie than earlier that might take on the transparent, sports partly, I wish everybody stop talking about it, because they don't think she's far too complicated. And I'm going to air on the side of inclusion, and I don't know that anybody has enough information. Maybe there's an issue maybe there's not maybe it's related transplants. Maybe it's not. But I'm really sick to death of people either saying, no. We can't talk about anything or no. You can't talk about that, if there's an issue, it should be treated by the expert. Efforts by the people who are involved, and I'm still going to actually support inclusion I think we should remove gender from all sports, but I don't care that much about sports. So maybe that has problems. I don't know at least it's inclusive of non binary people at least now much like you couldn't be a navy seal once upon a time. If you're a woman, and now you can, because we removed gender from the equation, and all that matters requirements. I don't know why we can't do something similar with sports, but this issue for me is not about sports. I have friends in the trans community. I have friends outside of the trans community in need to be cognizant that you don't know what somebody else is going through. And so when I see someone react in a way that my gut tells me just like oh, this is reactionary hyperbolic and batch it crazy. And whatever other label I instinctively want to put on it. I have to pause and think what is it about them that is doing this differently from the way I'm doing, I'm not always going to get the right answer. But the frustrating thing is that while I'm sitting here evaluating things and thinking and trying to come up with the best way to address this. This. There are people who would argue that the fact that I haven't said anything means I'm part of whatever enemy they have perceived in everybody messed up. But the blame for the initial thing, rests with Stephen which he's working to correct, you get to decide what you what your take on that. My not addressing this on the show when he was here was a problem and the board making what I would call perhaps rectory and sometimes contrary positions, amplified things, and in this environment, where nobody was communicating with each other everybody how to different perspective on where they sat within this issue, seeing things everything's fine. And he's gonna push his apology and saw gonna go away. And then it gets blindsided. The thinks everything's fine. Then all of a sudden people are complaining that we platform to transform. I think everything's fine because I've talked to Steven. But I'm not viewing it yet from people on the outside. So for those of you who knew nothing about this. Sorry we had to address it today, but I'm not sorry because one of the big problems that happened throughout all this is that there's not. Enough people caring about what the trans community's perspective is on these issues to even dig into find out what the problems are, and I'm not going to be the one to educate you on that 'cause I'm still learning myself, but that's something that has to happen. And nobody gets to set back and say, oh, I did nothing wrong. You might have. But if we're going to build a humanistic community that is welcoming and encouraging to everybody you don't just get to sit there and say sorry, I didn't know because that's understandable, but not necessarily excusable. That's all I have to say about us something about the election or. No. Oh, yeah. So I do want to say something about the election after this happened. I'm not going to get into specifics about this, but in the history of the, there's a president vice president and seven large board members for total board of nine throughout most of the history of the ACA. There were cases where we didn't even have enough people running for the board to fill those positions, and we would recruit people at the meeting. Hey, you wanna be on the board this year? There were eleven people running for maybe twelve running four seven seats and every single person who was running was allowed to get up and talk and give their reasons why they felt good for the poured and everybody who was in attendance was allowed to ask questions and his board members answered them, because of everybody's views they're going to respond differently to those questions and answers. And at the end of the day, a democratic election was had and the top seven candidates became the new seven at large board members now it's easy to this is oh, we ousted those other people. I can't deny that that's one way to it. But when I look at what was happening there. I think some people voted for change, and I tried to discourage people from doing that, that voting just for change without considering the broader issues could be viewed as just as reactionaries the thing that you're objecting to, but that's the environment we're in once things start going bad, or seem to be going, bad people just start reacting because we want to fix it all those old members of the board, one a day. Eighty to be the best community. They could have that's true for the people involved in the shows I genuinely appreciate respect those people voted for three board members that did not get back on the board. There are people on the board. Now I didn't vote for, but this was not a takeover. Type thing. This was a legitimate democratic election where people how chance to speak, and this is the result of it. The new board has taken no action doesn't take any action until the first meeting in June. So anything that's still objectionable about the is entirely the responsibility of the people who've been running it up on now. I don't know what the new board's going to be like I'm optimistic. I'm up to mystic about the shows I'm optimistic about the future of the community arm optimistic that may be in ten years will have proper quality for the trans community to where we're not having these sorts of fights where people who agree on ninety five ninety six percent are fighting over the remaining portions, I don't know. But I am confident that the people. Who were on the board prior. And the people who will be returning be the Newport in June. Do have the best interest of the at heart. They the various suspicions and other things that people thrown out are just that I'm happy to be here. I'm happy that I have this chance to be able to, to say what, I think, and other people's perspectives of this issue, maybe different for mine. So anybody who just says, Well, Matt set it now. I'm now I've got it all fixed. I'm you know, Matt cured me dick around some more I'm, I'm still learning understanding the different aspects of this. But if you think that anybody new board old board me Stephen, whoever is somehow malicious, actor who's opposed to quality and trans rights and things that you're simply wrong, and I can even understand how some people reached that conclusion, but I couldn't go another week without at least presenting my side, if anybody still doesn't like me when it whatever else find at least you listened to. What I had to say about. All right. On that note. Welcome to the eighth east experience thirty three minutes later. Let's get back ageism. What did you say? I say we should here who who where do you wanna go first for calls? I'm kind of liking number six number six it is Fred in Michigan. You're on Don Matt hi guys doing. Hi, thanks for your patience, and problem. I was listening to that whole thing. And man arch art fell. The thing to say opening up, so yeah, kudos for you to for wouldn't it out there? And you know, be bleeding, heart. I guess you know. Those are the ones that work. Yeah, yeah, exactly for sure, I guess, so the question I wanted to ask I just recently found your guys show, not too long ago and say a lot of the clips, I'm writing Hervas about, like getting custody and yelled at shouted at and all that, but that's a good. That's a good way to prevent me from doing it. I just hope I'm not one of those guys, you know, so, so I was just curious. How it is that we can dismiss the bible as the evidence for God. We can't. So I'm actually working I it wasn't the answer. I expected I'm sorry. Yeah. I'm actually working on a video for my eighth debate channel that addresses the nature of evidence and how we qualify things because I've said it before and other people, you know, if you say, well, there's no evidence for God, and then people like, well what about the bible? Oh, that doesn't count. There are good reasons why we say that. But I think it's confusing people about the nature of evidence. So I'm putting together video that discusses this in more detail. But I'll see if I can shorthand this okay to whatever extent counts as evidence it is still insufficient to warrant accepting of the propositions and it's like if the proposition was Matt strangled done coming forward and saying. Matt as a person who exists is not evidence for the proposition that Matt strangled done. Neither is saying Matt has hands and hands are required for strangling. That's still not evidence that I strangled on because those two things are true. Whether I strangled on or not. And so when we talk about evidence for proposition, first of all, we need an actual proposition proposition. A lot of times we say evidence for God, but we really mean is evidence that Warren's concluding that God exists, and so or that a particular. And so what we see is in something like the bible, these are the claims you need evidence for the claims and these are not prime official claims where the claim stands on its own merit. So when you say you know, Jesus walked on water, that's a claim and there's nothing in the bible that could ever substantiate. Acceptance that, that claim is true on its own their certainly the various attestations to this. Opening count sort of anecdotal evidence. But it's not like that would be could be or should be convincing and not even apply. A matter of fact, most of the bible be thrown out, as hearsay, if we're gonna court. And so when I say it's nothing I get to disregard the bible. It's that the bible is on its own is not sufficient, I see. Well. The for you for you, gentlemen. Go ahead. There's also this idea that extrordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and, you know, the existence of God's extraordinary claim and so we're looking for, for big evidence of this. We're, we're looking for something really solid, something really obvious. You know that, that, you know, some path to this conclusion that's going to be convincing to everybody. That's the kind of thing we're looking for. Okay. I mean, that makes sense but at the same time it on. Sometimes I'm left with that feeling of well if not the bible than than what you know. Yeah, but that's not the problem that, that's a problem to take up with God, what kind of God wants people to accept that exists and presents insufficient. Evidence for sure. And the way I was always presented that would concept was that it. Oh, faith in a in a sense was the ultimate test. Right. Like you said it can be rather challenging when you take in all the Sayas discovered up to this point, you know, the fact that we are here we are with all these billions of trillions of atoms and billions of stars where they only planet with life on it. Maybe but that's a pretty big. Maybe yeah again, we know have to discover knifing somewhere else. So the fact that we don't know, the fact that we don't know of life, somewhere else is, is completely unsurprising since our ability to explore somewhere else is incredibly limited him. His only existed for short period of time anyway, but the sister getting back to this, this issue of faith, there's two different connotations while there's more than that, but there's two different usages of, of faith. One is like the Hebrews eleven one where faith is the evidence of things unseen. And then there's another usage, which just faith just means confidence now looking at, like, they when you say that it becomes essentially a matter of faith, the type of faith. Talking about where you have confidence in something in the absence of sufficient evidence. Is there any position that you couldn't justify appealing to faith like that? If I'm being honest, you could have faith in things that are not true, like eventually, like there have been times throughout history, where we had faith in things like bleach is being able to, you know, cure you of headache, which we over the course of history and time and experimentation we were able to figure out that. No, that's completely moronic. And of course, that's not how it works anymore. But, but if we hadn't if we hadn't had the ability to, to investigate that and either debunk or confirm it than we would still be believing on faith which so you, can, you can exercise faith in such a way that you can be confident in something that is true, and you can do it in a way where you can be confident something that's not true. And what I care about is whether or not, we have good reason to believe that something is true. Which is why when I talked about faith. I say that faith is the excuse people give for believing something when they don't have a good reason because. If I ask someone why do you believe this, and they have a good reason? Then they give that reason when we're talking about scientific facts about the universe. Nobody says that they take it on faith. You know that the that the sun is at the center of our solar system. They present the anymore. Yeah. Not now. But that's, that's the reason I use that example is because they're flatter their people. There are people who think that reasonableness corresponds to truth. And that's something I try to correct people on when I can at one point, given the all the available information it was reasonable to conclude that the sun went around the earth that any other it's wrong. So it's entirely possible to be reasonable based on evidence based on what you see and still be wrong. And so knowing that, that's the case. It makes it even more repugnant to me to for anybody to ever appeal to faith, because knowing that our best efforts looking at the best available evidence, we could still turn out to be wrong to then take an extra step and say, you know what? There's not sufficient evidence for me to make conclusion. So I'm gonna make conclusion anyway, that is that has to be a big mistake than following the evidence to an error. Yeah. I. When you put it that way. I can't help it agree with it. So, well, damn. Now, I can't really yell and cuss at you. Even. Why did you have to be so reasonable approach things with an open mind? And I definitely, you know, I approached calling you guys today with, with the idea that, you know, I wasn't going to hold onto these beliefs so strongly that I wasn't willing to. Listen, if that makes sense. Does. And we appreciate it, and hopefully, this call will not only let you know, but let other people know that that's how we, we are as well. When I stopped believing it wasn't because I got mad at a God it wasn't because I was like screw the church or you know as I, I was actually trying to be the best Christian, I could be and to answer the, the logical reasonable objections that people read against my religious beliefs, and I didn't choose to give up. Religiously what I believe. Or what I'm convinced of isn't a choice. It just reached a point where I was like, wow, all those good reasons I thought, I had turns out, they're not good reasons and my position still is not if somebody, I was having a conversation with one of my aunts this weekend. And I, I was explained to her that, you know, she believes in God and an afterlife, and I don't I'm not saying she's wrong about whether or not there's an afterlife. I'm saying that I'm not convinced that she's correct. And I am taking a step further for the people who are. Every time I say that who cringe you're being honest because you are in their own. I am saying that when you give me your arguments if I find fallacies there, I think your reasoning is wrong. I think you believe without good reason. But that's still independent of whether or not you're factually, correct? I say and for me, okay, all of this rest, if there is a God, all of this rests on the shoulders of that got that, God, you'd have to think stuck his down here. Chaos brain allows us to understand logic and reasoning and evidence and figure out what what is real and not real to the best of our ability in this world. And for the single most important question has left it with insufficient evidence to reach the conclusion that is not a good being. That's not a wise being, and I think it's an argument for why that being almost certainly doesn't exist, at least as portrayed care. I'm just curious. Because I have given some thought to that idea like, why, why would he do this? And then, you know, kinda leave us to our own devices to and it was just one of the. Those things, you know, when you start looking into say quantum mechanics, there's a an aspect of quantum mechanics, known as super position. And then when you begin to look at that all particles before you observe them will be in any all states that they can possibly be within given probabilities. Now, there's a, a fringe theory based on that we call the called quantum consciousness. I ever heard somebody a trying to remember his name now, Michio Kaku. I believe was talking about it and or I'm familiar with that name. I don't know if this what he was talking about. Good. Oh, okay. Fair enough. And that got me thinking, okay. So if, if at the universal level, we can assume that anything that is exists exists, because we observed it then could it simply be that? That the reason God only wants us to believe in him. That's the sole reason for all of this is because without that he would cease to exist. Sounds like a pretty weak. God to me, it, doesn't it certainly, doesn't it certainly doesn't match up with an all powerful all knowing all loving, God, if if, if we stop believing him and goes away. There's some science fiction to raise with that is the premise, I couldn't I couldn't tell you what they are. Okay. And on the quantum mechanics stuff. I I'm not going to dig in, because I have perceptions, and I've no expertise there and I presented that aren't consistent with that. But it the end of the day even viewer correct? The time to believe that is after it's been demonstrated to be true and not merely because you can't rule it out as a possibility. I can agree with that. That's a good point. Well, Fred you're my new favorite person. Wow. Okay. Cool at least until we get to, you know, and other caller. But I appreciate that. I present you calling in. And if you come up with more stuff, or have other thoughts or questions feel free to call us back. All right, sounds great. Thanks. I appreciate your time. I feel jilted we feel because you, do you know about quantum mechanics. No, I thought I was your favorite person, take another call. Well, bad joke, you didn't agree with me as much as he did. I only like people who agree with me. Just ask the internet. That's right. Who do next? Oh, you know, I don't know. Let's go with let's go with Ryan in San Jose, California. Thanks for waiting. Addition for Don bicker. Save person it is for mass fy rights. Aren't right. So I just want to say, I'm a big fan of yours for about years that different help my conversion out of like two and a half questions that are personal to me. They can apply to others deeply chair on a half a question about bigoted, bigoted, St Peter's, as well, as, you know, is the first time caller, I cover my nerves of humor. I'm little nervous like jokes when the better be funny can help lie performance issues of any kind. So as you know, they're putting under the first time now, you'll be fine go ahead. So, you know, so. Like you converse experience and the mental health emotional reasons for conversion as if in your especially with other atheists, who had you conversion stories mine was based on a motion, like kind of around the problem with evil in why was suffering in the way that I was that was the initial part, I don't, I don't just not believe, because of that I've watched shows other YouTubers Stephen and Alice O'Connor. And those are definitely helped me. But would you say that initial conversion ignition weekends my little, no? Do you know there's this? There's this phrase that you can't argue some something somebody out of something that they didn't reason their way into. And so, I think, you know, having this emotional thing gnawing at you might have been away for you to explore the issue and, and such. And I think I think that, you know atheism if you're if you're going to try to reason about something or whatever then. Ultimately that has to be the foundation of it. But getting there might might take an emotional path. Yeah. Ten years ago, I would have said, I would venture question with. Yes. Because I wanted everybody to have still want everybody to have good reasons for whatever position they hold or whatever positions they reject. But a couple years ago, I did a video called y'all just wanna sit. And it was about me changing my view on this, because people Christians in particular would would come up to someone who is, let's say gay and say, well, the only reason you don't believe in God's because you wanna be gain you wanna sit. And I used to caution people that perhaps what they should say, is, you know. Okay. That may be true, but that's not my reason for not believing. And now after that video, I'm happy to say, go ahead give that as your reason because the type of thing that they're objecting to sin this. You have wounded or fended my God, his bullshit in the first place. And when if you are if you're an atheist, because EUROMED sexual. And religions denounce who you are fundamentally. That's a good reason. It's not it's not a philosophical thing. It is wait a minute. Your God thinks I'm shit. And I know I'm not so clearly you're gods. At least wrong if not fictional. And since I have no access to that, God other than what you're telling me, I'm going to be fine. Yep. I wanna have elicit sex of the kinky is variety, and your God can reme- after tacos. Question. Yeah. Thank you for answering that kinda ties into that earth one, I have bipolar disorder and the initial manic episode is kind of converted me when we enough, the second manic episode, I had one thing that I now know is a sign of episode for me is I was praying again, because I didn't know what to do. So that was kind of a shocker for Catholic. Bruce my ego a little bit. But I'm over that now I'm fall following stoicism more or less that's helps but it's want to any other people in the audience who are suffering from mental disorders like reach out, ladies and gentlemen, is reach out to me look for a local group to meet up and talk. 'cause there are people who tell you to prayed away. I was in the chat earlier on YouTube, and I saw one gentleman suffering from depression, and his, his relatives. Always telling the pray and I that was done. Two million hurts isn't help. So you gave an acronym. What is that? Namiki National Alliance for mental illness. Thank you, and the second one, these are more so smaller groups. But these are what I went to you, depression, and bipolar support alliance. Okay, these are national group and is one that I nanny is say, I'm not sure. But I think they're affiliated with net with nam me in some way, shape or form. I was actually hospitalized for my on and I was in. There was nothing to do. Yeah. Yeah. I think I think religions sometimes do us a disservice to those with mental health issues because they tend to mass them and hide them and shuffle them in the wrong direction. Yeah. Rather than actually addressing the problem. There was a call to talk even which turned out to be really bad, because the guy wanted to talk about why not go with Christianity. That makes people happy. And we put it on a number of reasons why but another another reason many of the religion. Would look at something like mental illness and you know, ages ago would have attributed to demons and in the modern area modern era more likely to tribute to send and all of that is in denial of what we know about the human brain mental health, and who we are as people's psychologically. And if your religion isn't bolstering people, and encouraging them to get sound medical treatment for mental health issues. That's yet another problem with that particular religion and it's doing real harm. And even absent religion, at least in western culture, we stigmatize mental health issues. I'm not I'm not ties for being a diabetic on occasion. Somebody'll say, oh well you're diabetic. Because, you know, you were fascinated bunch of sugar whatever, and maybe that's true. Or maybe I had some sort of chronic condition my anchors. I don't know but mental illness, we tend to put the blame on the person, and we tend to try to shame people. It's the. Same thing. We do with just simple things like saying, I don't know, saying, I don't know, somehow a bad thing to most people when I think is one of the best things you can say recognizing that you, you didn't decide to be bipolar. You didn't choose this. You would rather this not be the case. But even more than that, you would probably rather that people stop pretending that this was something about you. I think that it has to do with the fact that we have a hard, time distinguishing things related to the brain because that becomes who are identities. But we have to do a better job of making. Sure, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We don't stigmatize people and instead help them get the help. They need. Now, my parents are accepting my L E. Tune extent. My dad doesn't care. He's glad I found his through lack of faith one, I go to church to make happy, the nice in front really make a nervous. So there's that too, but enjoyable ask questions that always annoys the hell out of. Yeah, I, I don't take any more time. But with one of your thing mad this kind of I one of your stays like oh God being moral thug. And you being more and more UB moldy superior rather, go to hell than spend time with him in heaven. Is that paraphrasing it, of course? Yeah, that's mostly. Yeah. And I try to stunned by that sometimes kind of freak out. And I, I know I don't know that my death is a long time coming. But I'm thinking this living moment to moment like trying to forget about that. And just like knowing that you live your life well moment to moment pendulum he talks about. He doesn't pray he like before he goes Betty, every moral. Good thing he's done that they like. Oh on this, but I'm not better looking for different kind of ways to not cope. But, you know, address it. Yeah, I wanted to I wanted to wanted to address this during the conversations I had this past weekend. With an but I didn't. 'cause we got onto too many topics, but it's not that I am saying there's no afterlife. I'm saying, I don't have any reason to believe there is an afterlife and Intel that changes the one and only life, that I know I'm going to get that. I'm actually living now has to be the top priority in anybody who comes along to tell me that this life is like dirty rags that this life is like, you know, seeing through the glass deli that this life is something that we should sacrifice in hopes of a better afterlife. Hell no. You gotta come with quite a bit of evidence to show that, that's the case, and all of the evidence that is worthwhile that we can evaluate at all seems to lead to the opposite conclusion that this that when I'm dead, it's most certainly over. And even if I'm wrong, the afterlife becomes a surprising bonus that I couldn't have good reason to accept prior to dying. And so I still must live this life, as if it's the only one I've got yeah. And thank you, the answers that question, the, the one have questions about the street preachers. They're they're not. I don't they're like came like a, the store brand of westboro out his church. You know, they weren't as all over the place, but I was at this one convention Fana may where people dress up as characters from different media, and there's some people the protesters, the, the bible bashing testers is the thing bunch of stuff that was found in the bible. And I was just go up to say, hey, you wearing mixed up, but I know not good to. You're feeding like you're adding getting if they have a microphone, you're going to be in trouble unless you're aren't. They can have a megaphone. Aren. We'll stand next to them and still get louder than okay? There's a bit of an art. My friends or martial artist triggers, and they did Jesus flip in front of his law. So this backflip with their legs extended arms out, then got kicked out, so no. Did they do that in costume? No, no. That would have been really. I was considering dressing up as Jesus with across walking up to the next year. I didn't die for this, you know. Yeah, yeah. You know, we'll those folks are attention hounds, largely and, you know, if there's some if you're stirring stuff up with them, they'll, they'll get a bigger audience. And so it sometimes the best thing to do is ignore them, and sometimes it's not. And it's really hard to tell which of those situations, you're in. So we have we have issues like that at our pride festival here in Austin and other events out laughing. My ass off, how ridiculous it all. I mean I know is there true found belief but it's it just seems ridiculous. So counterproductive. Everything else is happening. Yeah, I find I find that I can't laugh at it anymore. It's, it's sad. And when I see the it's weird because I see the impact that their beliefs have on the community at large, like the transmuted we were talking about earlier. But I also see how their beliefs have an impact on their lives. And this is just a lose lose scenario where they're only joy. I mean, it's one of the things that I criticized in the sermon on the mount where it the sermon on the mount convinces people that they're going to be persecuted for standing up for God. And so when they stand up for God and they feel like they're being persecuted that affirms that they're doing the right thing going profit when the truth is, maybe you're being antagonized, because your deck, you know, if you are offensive to people in hurtful to people, it may be that you're doing what God wants you to do. Now. People are going to call you out for it or may just be that you're you've been convinced to be a treat people like crap and the, the derision. You get his now justified. So I wish I could laugh at it more. But I can't. So now looking at it that perspective. Yeah, I was kind of in the moment. But yeah. Well, that addresses Majoor of my questions, I don't wanna too much into to call back time. Yeah, I wanna say your callers are very, very nice. Yes, they are called in for one of one thing. Hey, mom on TV. Yeah. I'm, thanks generally generally all over our own tears are awesome. Yes. And we're very pleased to have them helping out, because they, they're, they're waking the show where they can show themselves, like right now in the middle of the show, even as long as they March ready. And then you can see all the volunteers in the back room that make the show happen, there, probably smoking to join its. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know what I don't know what time the food's arriving or what it is. But I'll announce it as soon as we know by the way, this program, sponsored by the eighth ius community of Austin, who I am not a spokesperson for in any regard anymore. And haven't been for many years been on the board, but but we're not now. This building is open seven days a week from like eleven nine and I probably get the hours wrong. There's somebody here all the time there's stuff going on all the time. We're producing more shows and if you end up in the Austin area and wanna come down and see the experience, you do not have to Email to get tickets or anything else, fifteen seven west glean is where the atheist free library. The free thought library is there's people on the other side of the glass today and probably in the back room out back. And when it's over, we're gonna be feeding them. I heard a rumor that it might be barbecue. We'll find out shortly, but there's a community here that is robust and welcoming and not perfect. And if you're expecting perfection, you're not gonna find it anywhere perfect as. The enemy of the good, who would go on to next. Oh my goodness. Let me do this one. Okay. Murray. Welcome back. How are you? I'm fine. Thank you. Take him a call. For those dole recall Mary called prior to the American atheists convention, and we, we met up at that convention. And also, I know that you were with some of the folks from like northern Indiana, eighty east and stuff. How things going. Good. I really appreciate it in at the convention really mainly. See that guy's really our community. And what really struck me is I nobody was telling you what to do what the thing. And that's definitely not if there were somebody they're doing that. They wouldn't listen to anyway. Right. That's true. It's probably one of the big on occasions. I'm it'll be like, oh, well, you're just another religion or you're just another call. And having somebody point out that we're not telling anybody what to do or what to think is, is helpful. Well, if anything we have the opposite problem where there's, it's a real cat hurting exercise to get everybody to do something together. I, I've been doing a, a lot of thinking. And as far back as I can remember I was in church, and I believe, in God, and they were times that, like I'd say I pray and I see an answer. You know. Or like I was in a really violent robbery. I wasn't shot and I wasn't. Right. But pretty it was pretty bad. I was knocked around and, and one point, the guy was sitting on with gun at my head counting to three. He wanted the case to be base, and it's pretty intense. I never this went on seem like forever in the longer. It went on the more violent they became and I remember thinking excuse me, this one time that if I cried then would believe me, and I've, I've forced myself to cry. And they immediately believed that I have the case to save. Then then. Proceeded to drag me out of the store with my head again, but they, you know, let me go, and I thought always believed that, that was God telling me in the middle of that chaos. And I was pretty much. They what does it call when attached was, like I was going to dissociation dissociation. Yeah. Yeah. So thought was the clear, a concert understand why why people, especially with the history of religious belief would think, oh, this got kinda telling you what to do because that's what you've been told. But the truth is that sorta reaction is natural and learned from the time your child, you, you cry babies lie babies cry the hunger cry, even when they're not hungry, because they wanna tension. But also, we, we learn stuff we, you know, I don't know how many crime dramas you've watched, but I've learned quite a bit from crime, dramas about, you know, with if somebody's kidney. We talk about them as a person, and we say their name, and these other things you learn these lessons, even if they're not explicitly taught to you, that when you're in this situation, the best thing you can do is try to make a connection that is going to instill some trigger the empathy and the person who's assaulting you. And as long as you don't have somebody who's incapable of empathy, then you're probably going to end up slightly better off than otherwise. The issue isn't if it was God telling you cry. Why God do something else, or make it clear that Godwin cry? I mean why would God have you in a situation where you've got a gun to your head? And then just say, go ahead cry. I mean, that kind of sadistic, right. Yeah. It reminds me, you know, things like Tracy said about, you know, if somebody's going to sexually assaulted child, and you saw you intervene, because we're all decent people, but God doesn't intervene. You just sets up there and says, go ahead closed-door. I'll take care you later and allows it to kind of go on. And so while I can certainly understand how you or anybody else would say that time because I in my desperation doesn't seem like something I would have thought of, it seemed like a message coming to me, and therefore, it's yeah. Therefore, it's likely from God. One of things is we're not really good at understanding. Our brains. We try to divide things into like conscious subconscious or unconscious times. We talk about our intuition or the little angels and demons, sitting on her shoulder because sometimes when we're talking to ourselves it can feel like somebody else's talking because you can't explain where these thoughts are coming from, you know, it's if I'm trying to solve a problem and I'm just stuck in stock, and all of a sudden, I have this. Spark of intuition. And I get the right answer. It is understandable that you might think that, that came from somewhere else, because it doesn't feel like it came from you. But that's the way our brains work and all the evidence points to this did come from you all the best evidence. I got. Can I get another example as you're kinda start breeding? When I was young and Finn, I would hitchhike and I would always pray that God will give me a safe ride. Well, this one time this guy pulled over, and I get in the car, and he starts, lecturing me about how dangerous checking it and I asked God for safe ride, and he started laughing really loud, because he was a pastor of one of the churches. And I I've always thought that that was that was God, why why I guess, because it was such a coincidence, but coincidences happen all the time and. I just don't see any justification for attributing it to God. And I've never picked up a hitchhiker, I would never hurt somebody. I'm actually probably a bad person in some regard because I think one of the reasons I haven't picked up H I because I'm worried about picking up somebody who might potentially hurt me. But if you look at the type of people who are likely to pick up hitchhikers, okay, maybe the same reason that you reached out to God to give me a safe ride the same reason this pastor when ahead and decided to pick up a hitchhiker, and then it's unsurprising that pastor would talk to somebody said something that was potentially dangerous in their life, pastors are often good people. But some of them aren't it's entirely possible that you could've asked. God for good ride got picking up picked up by a pastor and still been, you know, assaulted or mistreated because there are pastors that do that, too. About them a lot. And the thing is, if you think that this is thought that this was God, giving you a message one thing I keep harping on his in what context does that make sense? You know God's gonna put you in this situation where somebody's got a gun to your head. And then he's going to tell you to cry or you're going to ask God for safe ride, and he's gonna make sure you get an in a car with a pastor as if that guarantee safety. Why is it? That God has messages for people and cares about people. He has to be so damned cryptic give you a hint of something that maybe maybe it was God telling me this, why can't it just be audience? You already believe it's not like you know, he has to convince you, you know, it would be like I it'd be like Satan Satan, if he exists knows God exists completely. So why would God have to send Satan hints instead of just saying, no, here's the way things are this high go. Seek god. It just doesn't make sense. God's got a message. For me, but he's going to give it to me in a dream. God's got a message for me, but he's going to kind of whisper in my ear something that I'm not quite sure was him. How could you not quite sure, I think people like to be part of stories right, part of the drama. And I think that religions give you these, these stories and these things in and one of one of the things that Christianity, does sort of makes you part of it. Right. You are going to be saved. You know, just be humble, you know, your, your reward is coming and these sorts of things, and I just see this as part of that also that, that, you know, you're going to get a message from God somehow because you're important. Yeah. It's like I, I understand I, I guess I'm believing a lot of the things that I am hearing, the, you know, ACS experience and since Andrews, and, and some of the other in an air not. But, and then I think, okay, I've got a re that we frames, my whole life and I'm, I'm really struggling with that, and you're not alone. So, so does everybody else in this in this transition? It's very few people who are, like, you know, on Monday, I believed in God. And on Tuesday, I was done with it. And I'm completely better and don't have any bag with the process for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Do you have some friends or some community reach out to no not? Really? Okay. That's something it might try to do, even if it's an online forum, you know, a lot of folks will have gone through similar things, and it's nice to have some camaraderie there at all. And also there, there were, there were resources that I put you in touch with while we were at, at the convention. Yep. And I, I would encourage you to reach out to them, you know, are, are in the second therapist project and secular women as well a going to conventions good. 'cause you can meet people, I've, I've made friends all across the United States and internationally that way that should be my nest. Next step conventions are expensive of you might eat might try to find a local group and get get more involved locally. It's one of those things where just having anybody around talk to is going to be a really good first step because sitting there trying to deal with all this stuff on your own. He you might find your way out after a time. But I, I really we're here to build communities because we're convinced that having a community is one of the most important things for people who have found their way for your religion and feel ostracized alone. It's also an. Important step towards atheist or secular normalcy. That once people realize. Oh, yeah. You guys are part of that. Eight Theus group down the street. And, you know, you, you do these things your work with these helping the homeless, or whatever outreach things, maybe maybe sit around and drink, and bash religion, if that's you know, that's the thing. That's good actually go, then I would recommend you see if there's a skeptics in the pub in your neighborhood, because drinking and bashing religion a frequent event at at its. Anyway, Mary, we gotta go, I've got a bunch of other callers. I want to try to get to, but I really appreciate you touching base with us and feel free to hit us up again, when you have more questions, concerned and try to find some people in your community and don's right? If you can't find anybody that you can meet up with person. There are online resources and I'd recommend contact McGovern for religion because they have counselors that can direct you to that type of stuff. So thank you for taking my call pay talk talking to you. Thank you very much. And it was great to meet you, in Cincinnati, take care. All right. So we've got four calls left to get to I've been told that I was wrong. Tonight's dinner is not barbecue. It's sushi. Looks like I won't be skipping dinner and went home. New board is blow it all the money. It's, it's a great thing down here, by the way. And, you know, the there there's a before we get the next call, and you can figure out where we're going next. There's a whole bunch of people on the other side of the glass who sat through that thirty three thirty four minute dissertation, that I gave patiently and they are from all over the country, and in some cases, the world or we have guests in from Switzerland even we often, try to make sure that we appreciated for the people who are doing the real work and the the booth behind us. But I wanted to actually think all the people that are out there in this glass because today was not necessarily the show they were expecting to begin with. And so. Showing Beatty got a few more calls to get through. And as a reminder on next week show, he's five five next week show, Don Phil will be on. So we've got Franken Dallas, Texas. How are you? Oh, you guys were talking about cults a little bit ago, and I've a feeling I'm going to start a call you and Don to join us all take that, but to serve sushi. Barbecued sushi. Oh my goodness. You might have me, by the way before before before we let you get in. I know that when you're talking there's, there's some pops and stuff that make a difficult understand. So if we have to interrupt for clarity, that's the reason why. So go ahead. Sure. Well, I do believe in an all powerful force, and I think that it's Paris pretty irrefutable. And I feel that your show is just like a drop of water in the ocean compared to my all powerful force are shows like a drop in the ocean paired to a lot of things. Sure. Well, first of all, like to make it clear that I fully support and encourage the AC as continued activism, as well as other second groups, and they're very grateful for all of the positive change that you guys have made both on an individual and community level. Let's perform the thought experiment. Let's say that this in second or activism is so successful tomorrow. We attain the marvellous result of the entire human population of the earth becoming nonbelievers. Now, let's say that happens and this -ssarily affect the remaining problems, pointing humanity and the planet such as Thane, juris and damaging beliefs as antibac-, Sers, global warming, deniers racists, Assad China's conspiracy, theorists. And all anti science, pundits, not necessarily not, not at all. Well, I won't say, not at all because sometimes religious belief is at the foundation. For that. And also, if we were successful in everybody's tomorrow. My goal is not to get people to stop being religious. It's to get people to embrace rationality, and so if the whole world stops being religious tomorrow, because they've been braced rationality than in fact, we will have addressed the foundations behind anti vaccine other things like that. Well, I mean arguably just you're correct. But I think we're saying it's e-. It's of course, it's easier to protest. I think from an aspect that you guys actually mentioned on multiple occasions on the show. And that's why I think that you'll want to join my give it give us your own powerful thing that we're going to join okay. Two words critical thinking we're already in that cult. We've been in Goldberg decades. I understand my most of your callers calling about religious aspects or sometimes political aspects. But in my opinion, critical thinking compasses all of these irrational conclusions. Yes, everyone, everyone is taught how to think credit going, then everything about grades. You don't have to spend so much time with the visual aids on religion on politics on child rearing on conspiracy theories. Everybody understands how to think critically. And you don't have to go through the same arguments over know her. Well, I agree. It's a it's an important issue, and we do try to emphasize that. But you have to talk to people where they are. And if they're interested in conspiracy theories, or if they're interested in God, or whatever, then, then, that's where you have to meet them and kind of lead them, lead them hopefully in the right direction, and I'm gonna be extra pedantic for a minute and stick, a bow on this, which is we're in agreement with you evaluate critical thinking, but I wouldn't call it all powerful because first of all, I don't see any likely that people are going to be perfect thinkers, even if they understand their point, people who are critical thinkers who are critical thinkers, about ninety percent of stuff, but not the other ten. And if you were perfectly critical thinking, I still wouldn't call that out powerful because I don't want to diminish the impact of empathy. Now, I think that you can make an argument that is logical and reasonable that empathy is incredibly valuable, but that emotional attachment that we have two people that commute. Unity building relationship. Building thing is not critical thinking it may be in game theory, the best way to go about it. But I wouldn't want to diminish its impact on building a better world, not at all. And so you don't have an all powerful force. You have a largely powerful force that we already except, which isn't a force, if that's what you're using force. Yeah. It may be semantics about how you define critical thinking my whole approach. Scooper or any informal education. A list of pal. Greg Nuys is almost every eight goes on. Religion anything there, recommend where? Argument are eight on those policy biases then become a contract to overcome that of Goshen. The problem is down in the fallacies bias. When you say empathy, I would almost argument argue that, that might be an example of a human when we empathize Geis's aren't necessarily wrong. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. That and on that, and on that note, Frank, I'm gonna actually actually gonna hang up, we're in agreement, and there were some problems with a call that were that were audio related, where it was getting more and more difficult. But we're in agreement, and I do appreciate you calling in about it. But on that note, we're trying to get to a couple of calls before we're done for the day, any preference done for four. It is in Idaho. Thanks for waiting. Eight man I Don could talk to you is again. Thanks for taking my call, but I'm looking. At the time now when I'm thinking that might not happen of time to actually dig into what I went discuss. So I just I come back in week sorry that, that didn't work out today. Yeah. Okay. Thanks guys. And as a reminder filling donavan, next nothing, the brothers, but fiction and done Baker will be on next week. So call and talk to them. We've got Daniel in Wisconsin. Thanks for waiting says, here's you, you believe claiming there's no God is an extraordinary claim since God is such a common belief. Right. Well, I don't know if it's still on them. But I believe it's more common than the opposite. Yeah. That so there's a fallacy called argument them at popular, which is an appeal to popularity which is this notion that something is true were likely true. Because so many people believe it to be the case. However, I would agree with you, that it's extraordinarily. But I would agree with I would agree with you, that it would be extraordinarily declaim. There is no God. Okay. 'cause wasn't that what Don Baker had just previously said. Within the past hour kind of lost track of time at this point. But am I might have, you know, I believe you told the color that it's an extraordinary claim onto say there's a gun? Yeah. It's an extraordinary is an extraordinary claim to claim that there's a God, okay? But then the opposite must be true as well. Correct. I've, I've already acknowledged that, that is serving that there is. No, God may in fact, also be an extraordinary claim more important than whether or not is strawberry is. It's an unfold. Safai -able claim. And so the position that I hold is not necessarily, there is no God. Although I think there are gods that we can show, don't exist. It's no one has prevented. You said there's, there's gods that you can win that we could show don't exist, because they lead to logical contradictions or contradictions with what we observe in reality. Agree K? But the my position is if somebody claims there is a God and well in the entire history of the human species. I am unfamiliar with any God that has been supported by sufficient evidence to warrant belief. I'm not claiming necessarily it doesn't exist. I'm saying I don't have good reasonably the does. Right. I've heard a lot of your outcasts. I believe there's plenty of it in the point to there being one God, especially since there's so many cultures believe in many gods. There have been many calls. So the number of people who believe something has impact on whether or not it's true agreed. But it does point probability. No. It doesn't it points to what humans believe at one point, a great many people believed that the earth that the sun orbited there that the earth was flat, or any number of things that were false that, that lightning came from zoos etcetera, but no matter how many people believe that had no impact on whether or not those were true, and it doesn't impact the probability either because people aren't perfect thinkers. And so if everybody is convinced for about something, everybody on the planet is convinced of something, and they're all bay doing it based on flawed information, flawed reasoning then you still haven't done anything to address what the probability of the claim is the most likely source of a religion as your is from your parents. And that's cultural transmission is really what that is. And so if if you think that religion is culture and it's transmitted from parents to children. Then, of course, a lot of people believe in a lot of people believe the same religion. Has their parents and has met says it doesn't mean it's true. It just means that people are cultured to okay, a couple of things there, I get into the probability that there could even sustain life on this planet, and the probability that we could have one hundred percent Asian, especially this any, it's a hundred percent probability that this could be happening right now. There's live on this planet. Right. So the probability that this, this planet can sustain life is one, but the probability that it came just by chance is four line next to nothing. It's not borderline next to nothing but no matter how unlikely it is it happened. Now, the question then becomes what is the explanation for why this planet, consisten life? Now, we know that it's possible within the laws of physics with a natural law. What's the probability that God did it? And how did you calculate that? Well, I went by the reverse of probability that it wasn't a God. Okay. So all you're doing. There is just a starting complete all you're doing. There is just a certain that it's more probable that God did it. I'm as. Asking you. How do you determine that? It's more probable that God did it. Well, you also look at the consonants and are more behavior fact that we're prone to love. There's those things are all of those things are completely relevant as to whether or not a planet, consisten life. Let's say let's say I dealt out a hand carts and you pick up your hand and you have a Royal straight flush. Right. Did I cheat the probability that you'd seated is very high? Okay. How did you conclude that just based on statistical evidence? Yeah. The problem here is that is it possible for someone to get that hand without anyone cheating? Absolutely. How did you determine that? It's more probable that I needed than that. I didn't that you can't just go by the odds of the hand you're now making a claim that I cheated. So how did you determine that? It's more probable than not that I cheated. How did Termine? I know you in advance. Sure, and will not only do you know me, but, you know, that I'm really good with cards and a magician and that was. Possible for me to deal you a Royal straight flush. How did you determine that? It's more probable that I cheated than that. I didn't. And this is the first and yeah, you're digging around for all kinds of stuff. I've granted you ten times more than anybody should to make the point that you cannot reach a reasonable conclusion based on the information that is more probable than not that I cheated because you cannot rule out the fact that I didn't cheat. And as long as that remains a possibility you can say, I suspect you cheated your free to do that. But you cannot reasonably conclude that it's more likely than not that I cheated until you have additional information enough, same for God until you demonstrate and tell you demonstrate how likely God is how, how likely or probable a God is as an explanation, and the big mistake, people make is a God is entirely consistent with everything. Hey God, conserve as an explanation or an answer for anything. Here's an explanation for nothing. Because it doesn't tell you anything about. How, and so if, if somebody says, hey, I prayed, and because I was feeling down, and I feel better, you can't tell whether or not a God intervened. There is no mechanism by which we can evaluate supernatural intervention at all until until there's such a mechanism where we can demonstrate it, you don't get to appeal to it as a possible or plausible explanation. It's just something that's unveils affordable that we can't rule out. But when you look at it, and you say, oh, it's really unlikely that this planet could have happened by natural means. No matter how unlikely it is. You have to be able to demonstrate that God is more likely even to make the claim that it probably was God. And even if you could make the claim that it was probably, God, you still haven't concluded that it's reasonable to conclude that it has got because let's say we knew that let's say exactly half the time ideal fairly and the other half of the time. I cheat let's say we know that, that's the case which is. Not something we don't know about God, if ideal you a good hand. You still don't know which of the fifty percent you're in. And if you were to conclude that I likely cheated, your factually incorrect, because we've already defined it at fifty fifty. But if you are, if you think that that's the case. That's what you think about it, and what you think about it has no bearing on whether or not. It's actually. True. And so when you tell somebody, I'm convinced that Matt cheated, and you're gonna whole bunch of other people who are also convinced that you cheated that doesn't make you any more right to being convinced and being and believing probable like saying good chance and being okay. That I'm convinced there's but but we're at fifty fifty right. Yeah. And this is with you knowing a bunch of information. Not only can you not get fifty fifty with God. You can't even put a number on it. It's unquantifiable and that's not the fault of me or skeptics, or reason or mathematics. It's, it's the fault of the claim itself. And so if there is a God this. God has arranged things such that you can never reasonably concluded exist. That's where we have to go to the bible. And I know you don't think that's fishing evidence. You are correct. And actually, the second the second the words we have to go to the bible came out, you just demonstrated your bias because why didn't we go to the Koran? Well, I really was Don talking who said that we get our beliefs from our parents for the non direct. Yeah. My parents got me to believe all kinds of things that aren't true. But how does that come into play? When you were abused by your parents, and you believe that they were false prophets and believe, anyway, I don't understand what you're asking quite fall because those in that at least imply that you must like and respect your parents, doesn't, what imply you know, one expanses to honor your mother and father. But you're going back to the bible. So you so you completely derailed from the question I asked. But I don't know what you're on about now. I'm sorry. I don't know what your point is now because I asked why you went to the bible, and said the Koran and now you're saying something about what if you believe your parents were prophets or whatever. Yeah. Point to, you know, saying that I must get my beliefs. My parents, no Don, Don said, the most likely looking to the bible over the Korean. Sure, my, but didn't say anything about saying it was common when I ask why go to the bible, instead of the Koran simply saying because that's the religion. My parents, indoctrinated into that. That's probably an accurate response. But do you think it's a reasonable reason to go to the bible? No. Okay. That was the point of my question I went to the bible, because I was an ATS for years after helmet with my parents and then became a Christian because of supernatural encounter. But obviously I have no way of proving that. Yeah. The thing is what I would definitely not choose the cram, because the trans bend over and over again especially, so it's. Kill Christians Mohammed being proven to be pedophile of sorts and whatnot, some and out of the Bible's fired, or if the stories are true, which is worse. There's a reason I'm not interrupting because the longer you go on about how the Karan's been debunked. But the bible hasn't the more ridiculous. You sound so keep going. There's not really mass murder in the bible other than, you know, God, and Moses. And okay. How is that genocide when God commands Moses to kill all the media nights, but keep the young virgin for himself? You don't think that counts, genocide just because we, we the booty for ourselves we didn't kill them all. So it's not genocide. What, what about the, the Amel guides who are or to be white from the earth and all memory and then we wrote it down, so that we couldn't forget after saying, we I think that you don't actually know your bible? I know it's very well. See you're implying that these were humans. These were natural humans that were killed right? He and I know it'd be last guy. But I'm sure you're familiar with the verse that says the sons of God came down, and had intercourse with the daughters of man, and those created here old, which many few lotions, and scholars believe we're probably giants. And, you know, one of the reasons that in native American culture, they raised their hand and whatever it's to make sure that you'll have five fingers on your hand and not six. I got one injuries that. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Okay. Well, thanks for dehumanizing everybody as a matter of convenience. But when we're talking about killing off, you know, the various other drives and stuff. Yeah. You can claim that they were the demon spawn giants of the world, but game of thrones is over. And so this call. Plasco the day, Tom and Liverpool. Thank you so much for waiting. Please. Tell me you're not here to talk about giants in the bible. No, no. I have to say you guys are the best two guys 'cause Don takes the humor part. And you take the analytical. Anyway, I wanted to mention a thing I ran into on YouTube, one of these recommended things. Yeah. It's Ramat trees. And it's about this guy who kid who decides an atheist, and it brings them all the way to everything he encounters like, thought it was interesting. And one of the things he pointed out with the problem with Jesus and Lancer K, you know, Lazarus dies. Right. And Jesus goes to town to to the town. He's going to raise him from the dead. Why does teases cry? Well, I don't recall that level of detail in the story myself. Yeah. It says Jesus wept. When you talk to sisters. Oh, well, it's like I can Jesus was already knows number one. He's going to bring him back. Maybe was going out himself as a whip. So here. No, no. No. So let me let me let me put my southern Baptist hat on Lazarus Lazarus died and would have potentially been in heaven or paradise or something else. And Jesus had to drag him back out of that. And that's why Jesus wept. That was my next point. What, what made him think laughing is wanted to come back. That was probably the reason he cried because he didn't take Lazarus's desires into consideration or had to set them aside in order to appease, the family or make statement or demonstrators power. But yeah, I I that was kind of like being show. Sure. But, you know, we're talk we're talking about a God, that, that rain, ten plagues on Egypt, so showing off shouldn't come as any surprise anybody in volume to the next. One was the Palm Sunday thing where this goes into town on the donkey and big parade and everything. Yeah. And then a couple of days later, somebody has to point out, which one is Jesus just the guy on the donkey dealer day, went through the town. But maybe that guy wasn't there when he wrote in on the donkey, these are, and I don't I don't mean to be I get it. We can we can have fun with a lot of these maybe I'm just too serious. But the silly stuff. Or counter bulge. I literally like have no interest in, because my goal is to raise release us that will give people pause to reconsider why they believe and I get it. I, I like to have fun. I just don't have as much fun on the show with crappy arguments. But the my experience watching your show is that they just don't care. They don't listen that may be the same argument. But here's the thing, we haven't this. No, no stop. Stop. Stop. This is flawed. When you talk about people not changing their mind. This show's been on for twenty some odd years. It's not the same caller, every time people do in fact, change their mind. Thousands upon thousands of people are now secular and atheists and skeptics, because of what happened on this show it, they may not listen immediately. Okay. Well, then don't say things likely just don't want to change your mind. It's the Knicks person you in like he's got the best argument. Yeah, same one but they may have never watched the show last week. They may have never watched the show before you can't judge person based on what person beads theater said. But anyway, we're gonna let you go. We got sushi waiting and. Hungry audience. Yeah. And great Bush's in the audience. Thanks, everybody. Who tuned in? Listen, if you tuned in late, you can go back and watch my dissertation at the beginning about the current six. In other words, those are my thoughts and my thoughts, only I don't represent anybody else when I definitely don't even represent Stephen who was the only other person, I think I named by name. I'm telling you how I felt about it. Don't just trust something because somebody said, so. And if you're honest, valuation of this entire scenario after the fact is that I'm terrible and don't care. That's your prerogative. If that's the case. Don't punish others for my mistakes. Don't punish others for Stephen mistakes. Don't punish others for the boards mistakes. Don't punish others for certain members of the transportation mistake there this too shall pass. And we shall remember that we are building communities and there were people here who cared for everybody and wanted nothing but the best and had the best intentions and. Mistakes are still going to be made. If you expect one hundred percent agreement if you expect absolute perfection. If you have no ability to listen charitably you are asking to be disappointed at every turn. And I'll be one of the first ones to disappoint you, because I fuck things up all the time, but we have a community here, there's a broadening community out in the world who support the community support women's rights to choose which is currently under a massive assault. And I would like to talk about it except that if I talk about it without talking about the other issue, then I'm ignoring the other issues. So that's another reason that I wanted to, to get this out of the way address today. My sincere, thanks to Don for being patient and setting aside. The failure thing for day number sixty seven sixty seven really in four hundred sixty seven oh well, I've been at it awhile, but also thanks to all of you who watched, and who support on various YouTube patriot, and all those other things come down hang out with the AC sometime try to. Right by each other, and try to maybe find a way to forgive people when they're not as perfect as they should be, or even as good as they should be. Because we're in this together. We'll see you next week or they will Bye-bye. Now is the chance to use reliable energy to grow your money with the dominion, energy reliability investment. 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