65 - Cutting the Cheese With Miyoko Schinner
I'm not just a CEO of a company making products to sell. I'm here to change the food industry here to create a world. That's based on not only sustainability but compassion for all living beings. We'll hello there everyone. We are so so pumped to welcome you to this. Switch for good podcast. I am Olympic silver medalist and switched for good nonprofit founder. Doc- Bausch and I am Alexandra. Paul a certified health coach in a longtime actress years ago. My life was radically transformed when I made the switch for good away from eating animals. Animal based products. My athletic performance was greatly enhanced. Much to my surprise actually by the power plant based eating dropping all animal products from my life has finally aligned my values with my diet and now I feel more balanced and more at peace with food and with my body Alexandra and I started this podcast with you in mind. We are here to take you on a transformative journey to learn the power of eating plants and help you redevelop a healthy relationship with food and a more whole relationship with yourself. Each week we bring you. Doctors Dietitians psychologists athletes and other interesting guests who have deep rich information inspiration to share. We welcome you every week. Join US on the journey to switch for good. This is the future. Hello and welcome to the switch for good podcast. I'm Alexandra Paul and I'm here with my co host DOT C. Bausch good afternoon high gutsy so listen. This episode is about cheese and IT. Is You know a lot about cheese. So s knows a lot more than true. So I'd like you to talk to a little bit to our audience about cheese. Yes I'M GONNA I'M GONNA START US out here with some facts. All right for the fact lovers out out there. Which is you always trying to please you make you happy so I wanNA kind of set up the problem here in specifically to the dealer effects of dairy now we know cheeses the most concentrated form of cow's milk so but under cow's milk right we have we have yogurt and obviously milk and we have cottage cheese and we have butter and we have cheese We have ice cream. Don't and we have ice cream. I did forget ice cream So our our guest is in my opinion in yours too. I think the solution to this problem. So I'm GonNa just give some scientific facts based on research all of which you can find Under switch for good dot org and clicking on why ditch dairy to understand many go through four reasons and then I'm going to introduce our guest and we're going to dive in because the solution is pretty awesome. All right so first off when start with cardiovascular health and inflammation years of research has told us that consuming foods high in saturated fats like dairy products can be detrimental to our cardiovascular health. Most recently twenty eighteen study published in laboratory investigation. Not only found changes in size and shape of red blood cells. Just one hour. After consuming a high fat milk shake but also changed in our immune cell function setting the stage for inflammation plaque formation and ultimately heart disease. Which as we know is our number one killer here in the United States in regards to vary in cancer research links. Cow's milk dairy to increased risk of ovarian cancer in a study examining the incidence rates of ovarian cancer in forty countries across five continents. Researchers found that they were most closely correlated with cow's milk intake the research to suggest that women who drank just one or more glasses of whole cow's milk per day and remember the dietary guidelines. Tell US tells us to drink three per day but the women who drank just one or more glasses of cows per day were three times greater. Risk f-r-o-t-h varian cancer next asthma. This one is you know very confusing for people I think they. They don't necessarily know how to to connect it so there are two Intolerances to dairy one is a lactose intolerance right in the other. One is a full-blown dairy allergy. Which is you know. has all sorts of side effects. Which is much more rare but the intolerant grunts What sixty five. Percents percent of the world's population correct right and much higher has intolerance. He bore color. Yeah so cow's milk and other dairy products including cheese have been shown to increased mucus production in the body which is a hallmark symptom of asthma. Now researchers hypothesized that increased intestinal permeability which has been associated with strenuous. Exercise so for athletes allows the casing protein to leak through the gut and therefore stimulate excess. Moot mucus production and lastly bone density. Right what all women are Co Well Caucasian women because we know from Dr Milton Mills That African American women do not get osteoporosis. So all of us Caucasian women are an and women have other colors are very concerned about us. Gop Osteoporosis and having healthy strong bones we know. Calcium is an element to that but not the calcium found in cow's milk so as we are all fooled by the advertising. Bits making us believe that Most advertisements claim that cow's milk helps to strengthen bones. That's what we kind of grew up with learning but the research tells a different story in two thousand eighteen a Meta analysis involving over two hundred and fifty male and female subjects found no link between drinking cow's milk and a reduced risk of bone fractures in fact according to a study published in the British Medical Journal. Those getting the recommended three plus glasses per day had a whopping sixty percent greater rate of hip fracture. Okay so why is that? Is that now? I've heard that it's because of the acidity of the milk actually counteracts the benefits of the calcium when it comes to bones. Is that correct? So they don't actually know. I've talked to multiple scientists about this and the two molecules that they think are most are mostly the culprit are the sugar molecules. Dairy DIGA lactose and any five G. C They think that that's what's contributing to to the bright law. The breakdown of our bones to calcium is building it up but we also get calcium in sesame seeds and almonds and dark leafy Greens and all sorts of wonderful plant foods without the sugar molecules. That are breaking down bone structures fun fact on personal factors that When I was a vegetarian and I did do way in my protein powder I had. This would Dr- drink this K- seen protein powder and I loved it because it got off fluffy and made it seem like it was It filled me up a lot but it made me feel so bad afterwards and actually talked to my sister and she had the same effect. And when I talked to my nutritionist back. Then this is twenty. Years ago she said casing you should avoid casing. Define bad were you. Would you be credible voting? No I felt Sick kind of slightly sick like this. Yeah wasn't clear gloating didn't have anything to do with my intestines had to do with my whole body. Inflammatory snored it because I like the taste of it and thought I was doing a good job of getting protein. In but then my nutritionist told me to get off it because it was actually more linked to cancer and things like that not good things. So there are many many reasons to avoid Animal products and and since we are going to focus on cheese. Cheese is the most concentrated form. It's seventy percents. Cow's milk cheese seventy percent fat and has more salt per than a bag of potato chips amazing sodium and they think well let let's go to our guests and then we can talk more about how addictive cheeses and okay. Well I feel like our next guest here really needs no introduction as David letterman would say and maybe some of you have guessed but we are really excited to welcome the Vegan. She's Queen Herself Miyoko. Sioner to the PODCAST. She's an industry. Pioneer truly an incredibly successful businesswoman woman. But her work is doing far more than enhancing our VEGAN CHEESE PLATES. But we are so glad she's doing she cofounded a farm animal sanctuary and recently launched into a project to aid the transition of dairy farms to more sustainable businesses. Her resume includes cookbooks and restaurants the corporate world and even prior attempted Vegan food manufacturing which will probably get into. But we're really all. I know glad that she landed on cheese. Because it's honestly the gateway cheese I give to every single Derry Guzzler on the planet to lure them in. We have so much to talk about so welcome. Yoko High Dot c Alexander. Thanks for having me on this show yet here. We are excited. We wanted to have you on for a long time and I have a quick little. Miyoko story Everyone knows you as as being an incredibly strong and powerful businesswoman. But I don't think they maybe not. Everyone knows how strong you are in all aspects. I got to spend some time with miracle in her team Last year the CAMPOBELLO bicycling events Mayo Cohen Email. I even got to cook on stage together. We had a blast but the bicycling part of it was they had fifty mile ride eighty mile ride hundred mile ride and so I go with my husband and we ended up renting bikes. We didn't WANNA fly with them and we get the bikes and we do the ride. And I am literally convection and complaining from Mile One because Princess and the PEA here like a saddle was just not quite right and then like the before and after was off and then the people I was riding with I didn't like and it was a little cold and it kind of started to rain and I just complaining where the cheering crowds going. Usa USA exactly there were. That's the bad. That's the problem their resume. There are no fans right shore so I pull in and My husband was like. You're you're grumpy. I'm GONNA spend some time away from you now and Anyway I look over and Mioko his comeback from. I think you did forty five miles. Is that right? No thirty thirty five. I can't remember around their regular shorts and tennis shoes vans slip on van so flat like not clipped into the pedal on a bike. She's obviously never written before happy as a camper tweeting bird. Just that was amazing. That felt so good. She's like thirty thirty five miles with flat shoes on so there you have it. Wow what did you? Yeah and just tough cookie and just such an incredible positive attitude so I turn my attitude around really fast after that and my husband started talking. Wow thank you well dot C. You're the inspiration so you know strive for more like you so some yoga. We were talking about cheese earlier and you created a line of Vegan cheeses. But you loved. You grew up eating dairy cheese and you loved it. So why didn't you go there and just make regular cheese instead of make the cheesy loved? Yeah creating this amazing line of food that is now really changed the vegan world. But how could I was Vegan so if I've Vegan I can't make dairy cheese? It was definitely something that was hard for me to give up. When I transitioned to the about thirty five years ago it was the hardest for me to give up. Everything else is kind of easy but giving up cheese on my gosh going to a party and having to ignore the the beautiful European style cheeses or or pizza parlor and not being able to eat. Pizza was really really hard So out is why I started the cheese company. I felt like we needed to tackle. There's a serious cheese crisis in this country. If you think about the average American eats over forty pounds of cheese a year compare that to the turn of the twentieth century when the average American about four pounds of cheesy year. So it's really really frightening amount of cheese for eating Today versus over one hundred years ago and what that's happening how. That's impacting our bodies and our planet. So you so. You decided to go into the vegan cheese business because of the health of Americans because you saw a need for people who didn't want to eat cruelty but couldn't and were addicted to their to their derek cheese. What what was the motivation? Yeah I think you know for me. My life has been always around producing beautiful Food that's Vegan to help convert people from A conventional dia to a more sustainable compassionate lifestyle and I've done that for the last thirty five years cheese by think the whole is the holy grail. It's the last hurdle is the thing that everyone says. I would go vegan but for the cheese. I just can't give up cheese and the other thing that's really frightening about cheese. Is that most people think it's rather benign I was sitting in on a focus group. One time and people were talking about how guilty they felt when they ate meat Because you know you're actually killing the animal but she's is better because they come from happy cows and no ch cows or harmed in the process of making cheese and I think what the majority of people don't realize is that the cheese industry is exactly the same as the meat industry if you think about it From the very very beginning what happens to all? The male calves male calves stone will never produce milk and so they're slaughtered either at birth or they're raised into the veal industry. Veal industry exists because They're sort of like the extras the unwanted extras of the byproduct of the dairy industry. And then what happens to the female cows after? They've given milk for four to six years in their milk. Production declines is that they also Get turned into hamburger so basically milk is Basically a gateway into the meat industry is the same thing. Milk dairy cows and up as me cows in the and so it's A. It's a complete myth that that American that we all believe you know. There's a lot of myths about that. We believe we think that cows are these magical creatures that just give milky around without having to ever be impregnated. There's so much that we take for that. We assume about milk. That's simply wrong. And when you really do a deep dive into it and realize the detrimental effects of of the entire Animal a dairy processing on not only our bodies but the environment And everything else. You know down to the school. Lunch program is really really shocking. It's probably the worst industry that exists. We had on that one. Yeah we had Howard Lyman on the cattle rancher. Yes he said he felt. Dairy was far more cruel than the cattle rancher. Because as you said they get killed at the end like the beef cattle but they also endure five years of hell and be dead at nine months right and so many of the doctors have also said. If you're going to give up something I give up dairy right from a health perspective from breathing perspective from a bone perspective. We've had so many yes right. Yeah Yeah do you rely on your sorry go ahead. No I was just GonNa say my own journey. A transition to veganism was because I had all those health issues. That was certainly one of them to talk to us about that you. I became a vegetarian when you were about twelve. What was the? What was the inspiration for that? Well you know I think it a young mind at at some point. There's an opportunity to make a connection between the pork chop and a pig and lucky for me. I was able to make that connection because of some friends And going on a camping trip with them when I was twelve years old and I never looked back. I mean literally overnight. I stopped eating meat and I never thought about it again Did they tell you did? Did you not know that a pork chop was a pig? Or what was it that they did but I just didn't. Somehow I didn't understand at this really you know I. It was so long ago it was fifty years ago so I don't remember all that well but I just remember coming home and looking at those pork chops in pushing the plate away and saying I can't eat this anymore And it seized meet cease to look like food to me After that day I never looked back and then you became. You became Vegan though at some point was that also because of an ethical reason. Yeah so in my mid twenties before I knew to pronounce the word Vegan But in my mid twenty s in the mid eighties or so I think I read an article in. I think it was vegetarian times. It was so long ago it was pre internet. There wasn't a lot of information out there but there was some article out there somewhere about dairy at its environmental impacts and I think I was appalled by getting a glimpse into that I just decided you know what? Why just be a half ASS VEGETARIAN? Why not go all the way but it was a slow transition for me. I mean I I cut out ninety nine percent of the dairy but once in a while I cheat in that took a few years for I stopped cheating. And what was your? He's got it was pizza. And I think bree the Yes yes yes. Yes no doubt on that. So you use. Do you remember a story or when you very first started to sit your own kitchen and you've always been a phenomenal chef? You've always loved food and making delicious beautiful food like you said is especially obviously Vegan food that very first time that you made a homemade cheese and someone tried it. Who was not dairy free? Yes you tell us that story. I do remember that so once you know I I hate to blame my husband in public but and I can blame him in credit him at the same time. Because he's the rea the reason I really dealt into the topic of cheese So we had a Vegan household and one day he just said I'm sick and tired of of not having cheese and he started buying cheese dairy cheese this is. I don't know maybe ten like a dozen years ago fifteen years ago. Something like that. And he's a lawyer and ICED ENTERTAIN. A lot of for his lawyer friends and things and his clients and so we'd have these big parties and I would make these beautiful Vegan appetizers and little canopies and things and he just said. I'm buying cheese that Pete might my guess. Expect to have fine European cheeses or whatever and so he'd go out and buy all this fancy cheese and put the cheese board together and I just got one. The first year did that. I was just appalled so the second year I was determined to start working on cheese. I started playing around with making some very simple cheeses. What I was doing was making. There's a way of making cheese from yogurt and I learned that making dairy yogurt. When I was a vegetarian see make a really thick yogurt. And then you strain at through. Cheesecloth let it drip for about twenty four hours into a kitchen sink in. You have tied up in cheesecloth like that and then it becomes really really firm then you can flavored with herbs and things like that to make a cheese so I did that. That was my first and I did something with lemon zest or something. I put it out there amidst all as other artisan cheeses that he'd picked up from local creameries yogurt. I mean. We should Vegan Vegan yogurt that I had made it was home made in Europe making no from from soya. Cashews and I've been making now for a while so I did that and I put it out there at the end of the evening. One of his clients are lawyers. Came up to me. Ma'am what an amazing she's bored. You guys serve. I love the one with a lemon zest. Which creamery was that from and I was like. I'm so that goes creamery was bored and so I was just determined to just experiment and my kitchen turned into this virtual laboratory and I had all these projects all these cheeses and different stages of fermentation. I took some traditional cheese making classes of the local community college and I was the only student who didn't taste anything. I just wanted to know how it was done So they were like. I can't believe is a Vegan and here but it was funny. I mean I I wouldn't near like are you sure you don't WanNa taste this. I'm like absolutely sure didn't have no interest. I just wanted to know how you know the enzymes in the end. The bacteria worked on on milk And then I tried to apply that science to Things like cash you. Milk and almond mill can learn where the the same science and technology could be applied where it didn't work and where. I had to come up with a new method do things. So just like deep dive into the exploration of dairy science and non dairy science which I was sort of helping to To Trailblazers and I did that for about a couple of years and that culminated in my I in my book artisan Vegan Cheese which came out in two thousand twelve. We tell some of those processes because I get asked all the time Oh wait. You can ferment Vegan cheese. You can age vegan cheese and I always say is yes. I don't know anything else passed that so help us out for when people ask those questions as it turns out. You can pretty much ferment. Anything or age anything so there are so many different plants substrates that we just haven't even explored yet because no one ever thought of doing that before So this is a whole new world. I just got back from from New York just to share a story. And there's this amazing cheese shop that opened up about four years ago called. Riverdell and they had the most beautiful display of gorgeous gorgeous cheeses so there are so many and when you say cheese are we assuming it's Vegan cheese. That's all I ever talk. Okay Okay Yeah. I refuse to use the word cheese alternative or GONNA because it's not an alternative. It's going to become mainstream so you'll say cheese if you're talking about if I'm talking about the alternative say dairy okay. So anyway they have. There's all these little artisan cheesemakers all over the world now and I visited them in Rome and the UK and Buddha Pashto and in New York. There's so many there's these little clusters of Liezl cheesemakers. That are making these Gorgeous Gorgeous. Cheese artisan cheeses. They've just taken it to a whole new level and we I bought brought back a whole bunch of an. We tasted it here with our detain. We were so impressed at the level of the just the quality that you know. It's just come so far since I I wrote my cookbook. And since we launched five years ago so but basically to make cheese to make dairy cheese what you do is you introduce a lactic. Acid culture bacteria into Milk which has protein in it. And it and you also introduced an enzyme that works on the protein so the enzyme works to conceal the protein. And that's where you get Kurds. And Way as they as they say little. Miss Muffins sat on our topic eating or Kurds. In Way. The lactic acid bacteria worked to lower the PH and acidify the milk so it starts out being very sweet. Like milk is because it's high in sugar. The lactic acid bacteria eat the sugar and lower the Ph so that it turns into something. That's like cheese. The Kurds are separated from the way. And then they're pressed and then you know any number of things can happen to it. They can age. They could Brian and they can inoculate it with a mold. Like penicillin broke. Forty or penicillin can diem. All kinds of things can happen. So you can apply the same processes to certain plants substrates. They all act differently For example cashews are very neutral nut. They're not high enough from protein. They're much higher starch. So they don't coagulate like milk does but you can thicken it. Through other. Means such as pressing or air drying or aging et CETERA. Almonds are higher in protein so macadamia nuts on sunflower seeds. They might actually coagulate depending on the enzyme that you use so it. There's similarities and there are differences and every single substrate is different. So you have to figure out. How do you tweet that and what we've done here that I'm very proud of at miyoko? Is that we've commercialized. This technology You know it was one thing if you're making it in a in your in your little laboratory or your kitchen at home or even a small production facility but to be able to go from making forty pounds a day to making twenty thousand pounds. A day is a huge undertaking and requires a capital expenditures huge pieces of equipment figuring out. How do you could construct these lines? How do you maintain the integrity of the product? When we first moved to this built this thirty Thousand Square Foot facility in started producing all of our cheeses. Were coming out like soup. They just never set up. And we didn't know what was going on and took a team of food scientists and engineers in need to figure out what the issue was with the equipment that was causing a failure in the product. And so as the cheese revolution takes place and we go from dairy products to plant based substrates. There's going to be new books that are GonNa have to be written on the food. Science of Fermenting plants aging plants. And all of that. So we're in an all you know. This is a brave new world that we are entering that I feel very proud. That mioko is spearheading. That were at the the head there and emblazoning this new trail. And they're all these amazing individual cheesemakers out are also out there discovering the science and the trick is going to be scaling down science and making it commercial so I I hope I answered requested task. That was that was really long after you introduce The bacteria does are. I'm sure all the cheeses. What's the longest he wants to make her own cheeses and find out? How did this come out to have two? Or but typically whether it's dairy milk or plant based milks is somewhere between twelve and twenty four hours. Okay all right so from tation. Pureed is not that long it. It's it's time and temperature depends on the type of bacteria different. Bacteria thrive at different temperatures. So there could be a bacteria that thrives at Fifty five degrees. Some wool thrive at one hundred and ten degrees So Avenue in an different bacteria produce different flavor profiles so Some will produce a buttery. Note some will produce more of a sharp pungent note so different bacteria can be utilized to different result and then after that there's other processes that take place in the aging of cheese. If you ate your cheese summer fresh summer aged can be anywhere from you know a week to six weeks or longer so it all depends on the size the shape et Cetera. But we are aging room is was built by a French aging room company. So it's built just like a traditional She's a deary cheese aging room. And so I know all of your cheeses and a lot of our listeners. Might which one's age longest We have so not all of them age. The ones that are age like are aged. English smoked farmhouse aged English. A sharp farmhouse Herbs are prevents black cash. We're also working on an amazing Parmesan. That'll be age for several months. So I'm really excited about what about what about your your Favorite dairy cheese the bree hat. How is So I I made breathe very first few months that we were in business back in two thousand fourteen in the fourth quarter of twenty fourteen when we started. And you know the so the problem with Brie and we hope to do it again someday. Is that the mole. Gets it permeates. The air gets on everything else. So everything ended up being bree even things that weren't supposed to be briefed as we didn't have separate quarters to Asia or to ripen it so it's one of those things. We hope to reintroduce Next year with a different a different route you have to separate it into a different separated. Yeah we have to have a different area of the facility so working on that. We're working on a great wrote for two but what's coming out in. April is a very multiple grilled cheese style cheese. And that's what you guys took to New York City last week and you sold almost not sold you gave away because you did on social media and there was a line of three hundred people when you guys showed up. Almost four hundred grilled cheese sandwiches in like an hour right. That's exactly right. We had We gave four hundred girl cheese sandwich giveaway at a place called the melt shop which is a chain of grilled cheese sandwich restaurants on the east coast. And we're launching We call her everyday product line. So we have a pepper Jack in a Cheddar. We have those in slices shreds and then blocks or called chunks and it's launching and fed that they're launching in February At whole foods and some other stores nationwide and we wanted to show How they performed in grow cheese sandwich so we were going to be doing a series of pop ups throughout the country. And we've got a grilled cheese nation food truck that's going to be going on tour starting march starting in La at Expo West right So we're really excited about that. It'll be visiting your city so be sure to find out where you can come in. Try it it was just amazing. People were just blown away. I mean there's Orla modest licenses shreds on the market but ours is still cultured and the exciting thing. Is that what we're doing is right now? Oliver Cheeses have made out of cashews. These cheeses are made out of lagoons and oats. So we're taking whole foods and were fermenting making a base out of those milk and there were fermenting that And then and then turning it into cheese so they actually have protein and calcium about ten percent of your daily need of need for calcium says a good source of AD. It also has protein So we're super stoked Lower in saturated fat lower in calories and it melts incredibly both of them so anyway. I'm just so excited I can't wait to get the girl cheesy. Did you get a chance to go? I've just I've just got your marketing director. Neil tell me all about it for the last three weeks and I have not had a single byte expo west next x lowest. Is My city like yeah okay? Great so you're going to be having it next work an audience of track your the truck go to our website neo coz Dot Com M. I Y. O. K. O. S. DOT COM We haven't announced food truck tour yet will be launching it very very shortly. It starts MARCH SECOND OR MARCH THIRD IN LA excellent excellent. So you're talking about all these amazing cheeses and you have actually. I have a cream cheese story at Christmas. My goddaughter spent Christmas with us and three of her friends. So these are all women in their twenties and basically twenties in thirty and we as I was doing the shopping when we had brunch. They had to have mioko screen cheese. They couldn't have the other kind. The dairy kind and they loved it loved it loved. It loved it. And they're all women of color so they all had some form of Dare lactose intolerance really never had the vegan cream cheese and they still dabble in dairy because they haven't probably because they haven't been exposed enough to me. Okay Anyway. It was just a huge hit. I mean they. They loved it not not in terms of compared to the dairy kind but just because it tasted so good on its own so great no. That's so important. I mean that is our goal at Miyoko. With every product we make we want the not only the flavor but the truth functionality of the dairy counterpart so our cream cheese makes killer New York style cheesecake. For example. Now you can make a butterfield prostate. You make me on because there's only there's only like three or four ingredients are cashews. Coconut cream coconut oil Cultures in salt. That's all it is very very clean label And all of our goal is to produce a plant we wanna make cheese and butter out of plants out of whole plant ingredients minimise the the the processing agents etc we want to deliver clean label clean ingredients Whole foods plant based products Just applying this age old technology of cheese making with some modern food science and just change the format of plants into what looks like an animal. Dairy product exactly. is speaking of butter in twenty eighteen. You were sued for sort of stealing dairies. Halo because you label your butter as well butter right. So you're you're an activist through and through but this This this suit Obviously you are misleading customers What was the outcome will? And and and what has happened since then and has there. Been any pressure in terms of How you label your teeth yes. So it's it's so interesting. So first of all had a very great outcome. The suit was dismissed It was or there was a very amicable into that suit. Attack that Suited all of us both parties so that was a very interesting unexpected outcome but the suit was that was the New York. That was a lawsuit that would a class action lawsuit but it goes on then. There was the state of Wisconsin that started pulling butter off the shelves. of stores saying that they couldn't sell butter anymore because we It was misleading consumers. And it turned out that there were two complaints when we file for. Okay so who are these people? Complaining there were two one was the dairy industry and the other was milkweed magazine. So that story got picked up by MILKWEED. It's a magazine for the industry. The dairy industry so when that got story got out on Bloomberg They got Wisconsin. The State of Wisconsin Was hit with so many consumer complaints about not being able to find her butter and they just said okay. They threw up their arms. It Okay Fine. You can sell your butter. That's fine. We're just backing off now. There's actually two bills in Congress. I two bills at state legislative level in Wisconsin about restricting language The same thing is happening In California we got a letter from the State of California saying that we couldn't use the term for not only were. We told we couldn't use the term butter that we couldn't have any anything alluding to the dairy industry on our website or marketing materials including a picture of a woman hugging cow on our website. Because we were trying to show that Kawser for hugging not not eating not for milk enough for Asia. So that's very very interesting. I really can't talk much more about California right now. but You know yes. I mean as far as I'm concerned. This is a battle that has to be fought. I'M NOT GONNA lie down because we have to change the food industry and so I'm not just a CEO of a company making products to sell. I'm here to change the food industry. I'm here to create a world. That's based on not only sustainability but compassion for all living beings as critical to me. I have rescued cows at my farm. Animal Sanctuary And I've known individual cows. Some of them are nice. Some of them are not just like people but I love all animals but not just whether I I like an individual animal or not. They all have the right to live life according to their needs to their desires not to be at our. Beck and call to be commodities for us. So I'm fighting for the right of all living beings on this planet and if we want to protect the rights of all living beings on this planet we have to save the planet. And that's on fire to we've got to reverse climate change so this is a battle that has to be has to be one. I'm determined to win this battle. I'm not gonNA give up now you so you're among the Mayo. Industry tried to did SUE WRIGHT JUST JUST MAYO. And the eggs. They're threatened milk the cows milk or spread almond milk industry. That's the argument was that tell me if I'm wrong was that you shouldn't that MIO COZ product shouldn't be called butter. It should be called margarine. They actually didn't say margin. There's another standard of identity for margin. So they wanted to be called something like plant plant based spread or coconut oils spread or something larger and has a different so so the margin people don't want are pissed at you to every I take you not actually because for example up fields which is the maker of of a country crock. I can't believe it's not butter. Land launched their own version of of begin butter or Vegan spread that they call plant butter. They call that plant butter. And then if you think about what's going on in the dairy industry there are companies now. I think it's a organic valley has launched a milk get this. That's called grass milk. Yeah I'm sorry. What the heck is grass mill? Did you take grass and milk that no and so you know the dairy industry saying basically it's from grass fed cows right so fight back and say it's not grass milk. You didn't help the grass like that's so this is what I'm saying. Is that they they. They're complaining about us because they're threatened but the same time they're using their own terminology and then there's company like up fields. They see the writing on the wall. There dairy dairy company also. But they're also making all these plant based products as well so there are many many Dairy dairy companies as well as meet companies that are getting evolve plant based movement that no. They see the writing on the wall. They know where it's going and they're spending money on this and that they're going in that direction so it's really not them so much. That are complaining. It's the farmers is the the ranchers. It's the people that are tied to the land that are in debt over their head to the large dairy processors or egg processors in these are the people that are have the most to lose and these are the people that we want to help because they're basically indentured servants to the dairy industry themselves. Talk to us about. They think they feel threatened by you but actually you want to help them to more sustainable business so we can Yeah so we just launch this initiative to help A dairy farmer convert crops. I mean what what's been going on is that there's dairies been in decline for many years. I'm sure you've spoken about it. And they're these big consolidators that are basically buying all these farmers so in the old days you know you had a farmer a local farmer and the milk went to the Milkman and you the milk was distributed only locally today it's all consolidated these large processors and then they go into these contracts where they have to buy all the equipment. The average dairy farmer owes something like five hundred thousand to a million dollars in debt for equipment in there. Earning thirty thousand dollars a year on average so there is no chance that they're going to be able to pay that debt back. They can't get out of the industry even if they want to. They're committing suicide at an all time. High dairy farms are filing bankruptcy at an all time high not to mention that board and just filed bankruptcy Dean foods the dean foods and back or the two of the biggest and they both bankruptcy so the whole industry is going is under collapsed but the ones that are being hardest hit or these poor dairy farmers said have land and they're gonNA lose their land. They'RE GONNA lose their livelihood. They don't know anything else. Some of them. They've that's all I've ever done their entire lives. And they're in debt over their heads to these large dairy processors so they're targeting us thinking that it's the plant based industry that's causing them to fail but it's not it's really the consolidation of all of these of dairy and Animal Ag And so what we'd like to do is find a dairy farmer So if you're a dairy farmer out there that that is willing to transition to a new industry that wants to stay true to their land and stay on the land we WANNA help you provide you the livelihood help you make that transition to growing crops that can become part of our supply chain may be. It'll be lagoons or oats or maybe some new variety of potato Something like that to become part of our RND in supply chain so we ensure that not only we help you transition But you're gonNA have a livelihood because you're gonNA have a place to sell your products You know unfortunately there's GonNa be a collapse many many farms around the country At the same time there's going to be one point. Two million new jobs built a created in this industry over the next ten years. So let's help you become art of that New Economy that is going to take over the old. So if you are a medium sized dairy farmer in central to northern cow and you're interested in this Email us and we'll put you in touch with me. Oko and yes please do. Yeah we'd love to talk to you really. Are there any other? You're you you are one woman working to convert one or two or three farms are there are there. Any kind of Initiatives on a federal scale or a state scale. Do they see the writing on the wall? And are they trying? Now you're shaking your head. Now I mean I know that there's an opportunity with someone like Senator Cory Booker to get something to redirect some subsidies that are used for sustainability to help fund initiatives. Like this there is a is a California State Assemblyman Ask Cholera that is trying to Do something there to take some of the money. That's allocated for sustainability and redirect it to something like this so there are some legislators that are trying to make progress but I do feel that industry needs to take a lead role in this as well to write on because it's affecting all of us so will work creating is going to be an open source model for others to follow his well We're hoping that other companies that how the the resources follow suit and try to help in their own way. Maybe it's chicken farmers. Well you know I know there's a there's some transitions going onto the chicken industry. Which is all the egg industry which is suffering the same fate the egg and chicken industry They're also like indentured servants and some of them are switching to growing mushrooms etc. So there's a lot of opportunity for people who owned land farmers to transition to other things. There's also transitions That are being made towards almonds or hemp So as well as pea protein piece. Yeah Pulse. Crops are the most little. Yes them right in terms of like what you can use them in from burgers to protein powder to just by themselves to. Yeah okay. And she's s yes. I Love Cheesecake. Or now you'll cheese. I like cheesecake as knows. I love sweet things. A the non sweet soul my mind New York style. Cheesecake is amazing. It's so good no deprivation at all. You don't do sell that I you don't sell. I would've known about if you sober. Now you're GONNA website you can make yourself. It's so good there you go right right right. Sure it's not going to try. Let's actually go from the macro to the personal there. There are a lot of people who you want to become Vegan. And you are an author of many cookbooks. You've you had your own vegan bakery of Vegan restaurant before me. Okay does cheese you actually manufactured other vegan foods. How do you if someone comes up to you and says I want to be Vegan but I just what do I do what I do? I what what is your advice. Oh Gee I mean it really depends on the person but there's so much education out there. I mean there's great podcast like what you're doing switch for good now. There's so many great websites that not only cover recipes but people become the in for different reasons. It could be for health if it's for health and you want to direct them to more of a whole foods plant based website. You know like the like a PC RAM or or you know Dr McDougal. I mean there's there's programs like that but you know maybe they're they're going Vegan because they made a connection with animals and they just want to celebrate The junk food and that that's also a perfectly good entree I'm working on my sixth book. Right now With ten speed random house. They asked me to write a book on which is pretty funny. It's on VEGAN NEAT. How to use all the Vegan meets available today as well as how to make your own. I just think it's funny because I'm the last like I just came up with a recipe for brisket. Because you guys have you guys watch that. Show Marvelous Mrs Mazel. And she's always taking brisket to help her husband. Get a GIG as a comedian. Yeah anyway brisket was lying in the fifties sixties. Yeah I have no idea what brisket is. I've never had it. I Wash Mrs Mazel. I gotta come up with a Vegan brisket. So well okay. This is an interesting point. How do you come up with a brisket when you've never? Did you ever taste risking when you were describing it so i? I don't care if it tastes exactly like I wanted to have the same sort of satisfaction. So you know. I don't think as a Vegan of thirty five years I don't WanNa taste like some of the new substitutes tastes too real for me like I'm so glad impossible exists. It's just not my thing I just don't want to eat impossible But I do like eating Satan for example That that doesn't taste like meat. But it's me T and I'm also served like Really Great Satan that I've made to Meat Eaters and they don't realize they're eating say Tan so because I think there's such a wide range of of you know the meanest in meets as it turns out like some chicken can be really bland and so I can make a Vegan chicken that actually tastes better or has more flavor so if that makes sense so anyway The brisk thing was you know I took listen to people's description of what brisket was I made it out of mushrooms and protein in Week. Luton and It kind of does it people who were meteors that looks just like brisket and then it kind of falls apart like brisket does and and they're like this is delicious. I it may not taste exactly like brisket but they like I would eat this I would make it again. Cilicia so I think that's what people looking for same thing with cheese like we're looking for the same satisfaction that that thing provides which is like fat salt and you know all the things that ultimately if you want to live to one hundred and five you know you. You probably don't want all that stuff but it's such a great food for transitioning or for indulging once in a while you know. I'm not a pierced by any means. I like to eat more of a whole what they call a whole foods plant based Diet generally speaking. But you know what I think. There's always time for indulgence. There's always a time to celebrate with people. We can't be critical of people who you know. We can't I don't know I get a little turned off. Vegans go but it Scott oil in it or it's got salt or whenever let's help people transition? The most important thing is that we're all compassionate and we preach compassion which is which goes not only towards animals but to people. Let's help every body transition to more sustainable diet Right if you're not recovering or repairing from heart disease arteriosclerosis. They can live a little little cheese a little risky. But take your recovering. That's like food becomes your medicine then so you do have to what you eat more seriously. But if you're not a recovering we still need to get you over to the Vegan side. So let's help you with deliciousness like there's nothing wrong with tasty well. I think you're amazing. You're talking about compassion. And you mentioned your animal sanctuary can you? That's just that's a huge responsibility. I don't know if it's a more of a responsibility than owning a company. That has to churn out. Yeah and you opening pounds of cheese day but Tell us about it and what what inspired you to take on yet. Another just important huge venture well. I didn't exactly decide. It was sort of accidentally on purpose. You know we had land and then these goats arrived somebody asked us to take goats. Pigs arrived and then another governor sheep and then it was like my husband is a lawyer goes. We should just start a fi- but once he three because you know the fact of the matter is you have have a succession plan for these animals. If something happens to us you know who is not so easy to rehome Akao. It's just you know it's not like I'll take your cow or your five hundred pound packages doesn't work that way so we put together five. Oh One C. Three today Our sanctuary rancher COMPA CION is staffed by two full time staff people. We have tons of lots and lots of volunteers that on a daily basis. We have visitation and Workdays SCHOOL FIELD TRIPS. Humane education were not just about rescuing farm animals and taking them out of the food system but were about helping people make that connection between amazing lives and personalities. These animals have so that you can make the connection between the food on your play and the life that it came from. You know I want you to think about. What are we eating today but who are you? Are we eating today when you start thinking about how I could have been eating goober the pig that you know flops over when you rub his belly and just with the biggest smile on his face and we want you to start thinking of making those connections by actually connecting with individual animals? They're the best ambassadors possible for Veganism. So good when you spend time with these amazing creatures. It's hard to go home. We have so many people who visit. Who aren't beginning they go. Oh my God. I'm going to go home and think about you. Know they come back and they go. I haven't eaten meat since I came to your farm. So it's really It's really really powerful thing. We let the animals speak for themselves. They want to connect with us. It's just so amazing. The connection they they make with us. They're not off on their own like when people are there. They're all right there with the people wanting to relate share their lives with with us. They're just amazing. I can't I can tell you store I can tell you. Animal Stories all day on real life meet DOT which is nothing more powerful. Do you have a favorite cow story that you can share with us since we are so? Unfortunately Eric is no longer with us. By like to share story by Erica. She was one of the greatest ambassadors of all time. Erica was a dairy cow. That was going to be put down. Because she was arth riddick and couldn't stand. Obviously if you can't stand you can't give milk so she was rescued somehow and she came to us and when I agreed to take her I thought what am I thinking. I don't know how to take care of an arthritic dairy cow I have limited inexperience with ant with animals With farm animals so she arrived. She came out of the trailer. And I think there's like when animals get there. They immediately know. This is not a traditional farm where they're going to be you know the trailer is GonNa come in home away at point. They know that this is a different places. This is their forever home. There's something in the energy of of R rant of rancher compassion so when she saw the green acres she ran off that trailer is she ever stopped running for two years until she passed away unfortunately and she became at first he was afraid of people and the next thing you knew she was just sneak up upon you for a hug or kiss and she became the most loving creature and she was she knew exactly what she needed to communicate to people when they came so she became an a great ambassador so she had arthritis but she discovered the most This draw vive this reason to the joy of living and she spent the last two years of her life exploring far and wide as far as her legs could carry her. She rarely sat down She's like I'm going to enjoy every last minute of that. I have before anyway. Her legs gave in one day and she broke her leg and she died. Unfortunately it was. It was very sad in the end. We ALL MR. But she was on. We have this picture of her literally. Running down a hill a steep hill to come in. Greet US And we put up this. We put it up on social media saying something like All What is it? All living beings have a right to happiness or something And that's really you know it's not just all humans but all all living beings have the right to let to to live to to be joyous. Yeah so what? What what motivates you each morning when you wake up? Oh changing the world. I mean I. I feel so grateful that I had been given this opportunity to do this. To be at the helm of this revolution along with so many other leaders in the industry in Activism Olympians that are changing the world. I mean we are all. We're changing the food system. This is the first time we've had the opportunity to do that. Twelve thousand years since the advent of agriculture. This is going to be the this is the beginning of a new food system. We are creating that and I'm just stoked every single day. I can't believe I was given this life so you know I. I don't know the challenges. Don't phase me bring them on their heart. Good days bad days or hard as easy days but every single day worth living in the animals. Remind me of that too I I just feel so blessed all around. Well we feel blessed having you on this show sharing year just amazing expertise with US and your passion. So thank you. And how can people learn more about your rancho combustion is their website yeah Rancho COMPA Seon Dot? Org So it's It's spelled Rancho R. A. N. C. H. O. Compa Seon which is just like compassion but only one s okay so rancher compostion dot. Org You can go there and find out about it We were five. Oh One C. Three we live off of donations. So We'd love to get that as well but I'll come and visit us. We have regular visitation day. It's an amazing place. Thank you so much in the you beautiful story. I'm glad you told it. Thank you so much so thank you so much for tuning in today if we helped you in any way then click the subscribe button and let's keep hanging out together. We have so much more to share with you and if you need more information on actually making the switch for good please visit us at switch for good dot org for loads of Info and you can subscribe to our mailing list with you will receive all sorts of Super Bowl. Gifts discount codes to are very Fav- dairy free product and a lifetime of powerful health tips. So join us on the journey to switch for good. This is the future.