E 133 Mobility or Stability Issue Daniel Bockmann DC
Episode one hundred thirty three ability are stability issues and he'll start the Justin truth-ler today Dr Daniel box men's perspective join twenty seventeen in two thousand eighteen podcast awards nominees host as we get behind the curtain look at all types of doctors and guests specialties. Let's hear a doctor's perspective <music>. Thanks for joining me this week. I think you're GonNa like the guest as the title suggests mobility or stability are actually is it both and yes it is so we're GONNA go through all of what's he looking for. When we're talking about mobility or stability he's creating a one day seminar seminar to come help goals through all the joints that he treats but that's only a small part of the actual interview most of it is talking about the kids definition his theory housing look at things because the way he does Rehab is very simple ineffective in fact? He's is able to be one of the doctor for the A._D._p.. Volleyball which is their professional organization is the Go-to for some musicians that come into town and a lot of stems from online reviews as well so that's part of his marketing at the time of the recording there was a prominent Achilles injury during the N._B._A.. Finals so we use that as an example for him walking through his technique protocols and also his favorite patient outcome assessment which is different than probably what you think like. It's not Oswal Trie. We got to review the other day. I'm not one hundred percents sure if I put it in the past episode but here again ego or K. D._C.. Wrote doc great job on creating such an array of good and useful information. I see that lots of work was put into the podcast good job well eager. I appreciate your feedback back. Appreciate the encouragement and I do put a lot of effort in time with these which I hope everyone notices well you know these guys come out later Dan when I do them but next week going on a little riverboat cruise Sinjin city three days down never you've been on like that before so far to spend time with a family get away from work for a little while the adventure of teaching Shanghai's been going well. It's a little bit teaching consulting little sippy sipping tea and having great Chinese hospitality speaking of real quick. I don't have a dedicated age for the PR- alone fast mimicking diet but I just started this week. I'm on day four or five as not really a weight loss diet but I think that's how they want you to like promoted a little bit but I look at it as more of playing two for one week per a month for three consecutive months yeah all the odometer fat. That's an important part for me. That's where I keep it. Blood pressure goes down triglycerides. L._D._L.'s glucose tolerance is better like A._N._C.. C reactive protein oceans go down so I've already taken a blow working. I'm waiting so you know I got to retake but I'm excited for it and the big thing is the up regulation of stem cells after you're done fasting and then repeating when they're big things is year a fast but you actually get to eat some food and the food is specially made us why at the by these boxes and the foods given to us eight hundred calories a day that interest you just shoot me an email or response you can also go to a doctor perspective dot net slash resources to find out more about that. I think that's enough for now. All the show notes and transcript can be found at doctors perspective dot net slash one three. Let's go hashtag behind the curtain live from China in Austin Texas. Today we got a doctor car practic who says his treatment approaches outcome driven which means he has specific functional in pain goals for every patient that comes in. He's got proven methods. That work in a big thing is how to educate patients on how to prevent future recurrences which is I think very good thing now. He works with semi pro football musicians and not on for himself but for volleyball players in the A._v._p.. So that's a nice little niche. He's got going on please. We'll show Dr Daniel Bachman. Hey everyone doc thanks for having me on. I love of your podcast and you do great work. I'm glad to be music to my ears right there. We always gotta start the interview with you know why Chiropractic we're actually the same alumni oh really so you went to T._C.. As well he A._C._C. would not have crossed paths some of the things I definitely GonNa want to know about later for the listener assume volleyball. I've only treated one like a really good volleyball player and that was really fun and then musicians like well that was Kinda. Cool looking at your page nursing home a world you get into that and what is functional Rehab functional all that stuff look like so. That's what you're going to get today so let's just jump in why chiropractic and obviously fit guys. That was the backstory okay so it's an interesting story <hes> how I got into Chiropractic so it's Kinda crazy so when I was a senior in high school <hes> they gave us an aptitude test in skills tests to see what we're good do that and what we're interested in right kinda point us in the direction of a career well. I took the tests and both of the two tests most of them said I should become a chiropractor which I was like. What is that in my counselors like? I'm not sure I think it's some kind of bone dr not even I was like exactly so neither knew what it was but it sounded like Oh dr sounds pretty good so maybe I should go for that. I said well what do I need to do. She said well it's premed so I said we'll all go premed so now there was a big gap in there here so I went premed for a while and then <unk> then I kind of discovered the college life and long story short. I had a lot of fun and didn't really take much school for ten years. I bartended for ten Tan years and then I got married and I realize hey I don't want to retire and raise a family on a bartender salary so I started reconsidering what career path on might take in went back to my wife said Hey. Hey what about chiropractic and I said okay so I jumped in. I went. I took forty. Basically I was short for my Undergrad. That was short forty hours of science so I'd taken every other class that hangs it's a lot hours and I took the forty hours one year I wo- I took summer classes and I mean I just went great guns and I also had to raise my G._P._A.. At the same time to get accepted so it was kinda crunch time but I did it then then I went to Texas Chiropractic College Pasadena Texas and where you which you know well stink Edina Texas and they know yeah yes and <hes> and that in honestly I think it's amazing that an eighteen year old which we are at <unk> as a high school senior we're being asked to make this monumental decision about what we're going to do for the rest of our life. We have no idea whether we're going to enjoy it whether we're going to be good at it but we have to make this massive investment in time and money towards this thing and we just kinda cross our fingers in hope is the right thing so I feel completely fortunate to come to just unreservedly love what I do. It's it's I feel lucky to have landed here. It's very rewarding boarding job. I look forward to every day. That's that's my measure for. How much do you like your job? It's how you feel when you're driving to work. Do you feel like Oh my God another. I got a psych myself up for this or do you feel like what's Today. GonNa Bring me. What kind of new exciting different case am I gonNA get? How am I gonNA be challenged kind of big therapeutic winds? Could I get today. How many how many people can I see light up in happiness or be able to get out of a chair again or whatever whatever whatever the thing is? It's exciting and I feel super super lucky to have landed here. Sometimes I wonder if we should be taking a year all not a year off but doing something for like a year when and if it's expected the nets great because I'm with you Manley bartending for ten years that's a long time thirty hours forty hours at one time of all your scientists that would be brutal. I mean it's kind of like college probably to college at that point. You just like oh my gosh. How are we supposed to get through all these hours hours in study in so you prepare yourself but love him in love is so far in there's so many avenues of like I guess Chiropractic niching down old people pediatrics just being run of the how'd you get into the functional part so first of all I would kind of it? Yeah you're right. They're a bunch of different kind of pass. You can take once. He become a chiropractor similar to M._D.. Right so you can M._D.. You can become a pediatrician or radiologists oncologists or family practice right. We don't have those same options but we do have different certifications and diplomat programs or call them sub specialties. If you like areas of focus that you can go in and mine I define mine as sports medicine listen and rehabilitation for spine and extremities <hes> sports medicine meaning injuries. They don't have to be athletes but I mean people I mean generally athletes hurt themselves. If they're pursuing the IT's common and they WANNA get back to sports so I think sports medicine condom encompasses both the kind of injury which are often extremity injuries and the fact that you're trying to restore an athlete back to their sport. Getting someone out of pain is one thing return to play or they. They called R._T._p.. Is is kind of <unk> separate thing. It's a separate process because getting you to where you can feed yourself. Dress yourself and go back to work is a worthy goal but it's a much lower bar than and being able to perform a high level like collegiate level or professional or whatever so that I would say the sports medicine bit and I do pre and post surgical rehab so so yeah A._C._l.. Reconstruction in our label Terry repairing on Shoulder A._C._l.. Achilles rupture reconstruction bicep tendon ruptures. I mean I've Kinda done it all fractures post op fracture revamp. What did you take for that because that's a pretty unique thing for a chiropractor to do normally like that's physical therapy you got that? I don't even want to see it rights so it's a weird answer to your question. I had zero extra certifications. I kind of just figured out I I've written all my own Rehab protocols myself in. I've kind of cobbled together from other things I've seen in heard and combine that with stuff that I observe with my patients in practice and I just just had patients come in and asked me if I could fix something I said Hey let's try. This was decades ago but right right but now I mean I have neurosurgeon sending me their post op spinal fusions or disconnect me's or podium patrick surgeon sending me there bunt post bend the anatomies which which is crazy 'cause I always say yes cinema over and then I'm like panicking me back. When I got this you know you've never had one and then you get one you kind of panicking but it makes you try harder and then once you learn that thing then you've done it and you can do it again? It makes you less afraid of the things in the future sounds I would think too. It's kind of like a mixed bag. Just probably certain protocols that you get taught at like a program like you're going to do this and united this step one step to yes and it would talk to a guy P._J.. He was doing in some special knee Rehab Ath- like surgery get you replace and sex machine and pretty much sepia store yet it restores you're not that one is actually restore your motion in about two weeks and then when you go to the P._T.. One now you're working on like strengthen everything so it was a really cool concept where we're not just worried about drain emotion. We gotta get you back on the field. Yes the idea being you'll probably put them. Through Different Rehab program like different exercises exercises different load-bearing that would be different than just. Let's make sure you have full range of motion interacts but yes so so I'll do follow up leases question you said where'd I get this stuff. Well in your right most chiropractors <unk>. I mean ask someone with a chiropractor does their back. We're back crackers right right but and that's true that is a tool in our toolbag but that's just one tool in our toolbag so for example all I have five treatment tools that I use news for patients just five and they are stretches exercise massage spinal manipulation lifestyle modification. That's it no ultrasound attraction <hes> electrotherapy <hes> <hes> no braces no heat now is no Anthony Flint. No that's it and that's those are the tools I used to fix. Everyone and I have actually I'm happy to talk about it but I my protocol is pretty simple. Ended applies to all areas neck bacne shoulder foot ankle wherever the same rules apply but <hes> and of course you remember T._C._c.. We had physical medicine <unk> rehabilitation classes right. I mean we can vaguely remember that orthopedics the PEDIC's we had some orthopedics class of it but the problem is they never gave us any actual plans or programs. There's like you said there's no checklists like okay. I do this then when they can do that you do this. We never got that we learned how to apply electric stem and how to do ultrasound in what kinds of things they might be good for but when you get an actual live patient sitting down in front of you who's got tons of pain and swelling what do you do you know missile tested positive. Yes exactly they've got everything right. Yeah all your tests positive so basically I just kind of muddled through and honestly I. I like a lot of Craig Lebron's work. I don't know if you're familiar with him. Roy Functional Real Rehabilitation of the Spine and Professor Stuart Macgill Monster in his field and great cook so to me. Those are the Great Cook of Functional Lumine Systems. Those three guys are top of their if you follow them. You're going good places so he studied the classic three people that most people are creating these long certification programs and everything those main guys the <unk> research from anyway. Yes and I say research loosely because I've watched I've listened to podcasts and not watch some youtube videos of them and I kinda got their concepts. I never took a course or anything with any of them. I I did regret correctly. Benson's Find Rehab Book Twenty years ago but the ideas are what from them are what I used to Kinda create my stuff and tested out and see what works and what doesn't fit works. I use it if it doesn't I try something else and I just kept doing that until all that was left was a real small list of easy rules to follow that you could plug in any patient anybody park so what is like one of the core concepts that you adhere to whenever you're looking at your package. That is the question to ask so basically if you think about it all injury in pain head to toe has really only two two main reasons for that pain and it's either mobility problems or stability problems move <unk> me. I'm talking about problems with moving parts joints muscles bones ligaments nerves all that stuff that goes with so mobility problems. You can either have too much mobility like if you tore your A._C._l.. Your knee your knees. No longer snug is slipping around right. That's too much mobility or two who little mobility. Let's say you have frozen shoulder. You should be able to raise your elbow but you can't so you can have too much too little mobility and not enough stability meaning the muscles whose job is to protect that joint can't and that allows pain to happen what that breaks down to almost every time is the rotation has type things and week thanks so once we realized that got type things which are limiting their their movement right and moving is limited wanted that means by definition they are being forced to move abnormally right if they're they don't have normal range that therefore everything they do is abnormal that and that means. It's a riskier way to do that thing and more likely to hurt because the price still doing it just compensated. Yes Eh like an athlete exactly but this applies to eighty year old grandmother WHO's trying to bend down to pick up something off the floor. You know if if she's only at twenty degrees of hip selection will she's getting stranger back in the process. I see a lot of fifty eight year. Olds waddling modeling around instead of walking is just bounce from yeah. Yes and I will say type things we things of those to the type things. are this big a contributor in almost every case. It's usually like ninety Andy Ten ninety percent of the problem type things ten or maybe eighty twenty. It's usually that way so then once I this is my hypothesis. There's only two kinds of problems you can have. These are them once we assume that then there are only three tools to fix things stretches fixed things they create moral building massage does the same thing by breaking up scar tissue adhesions allowing more mobility and spinal manip-. I treat adjustments like W._d.. Forty forty for the spun yeah if I if I if a patient should be able to turn ninety degrees to the side and they can only thirty and I give him an adjustment and they can turn further. That's what is four. That's how I treat it. It may have many other benefits but that's the way I use that tool cool and then in the let's drink the week thing. Side is all exercise. I just plug into the missing things that I think there they could benefit from so that's my method. That's awesome and we're talking about strengthening with exercise. Are we doing things you could see at the gym there bands. If we will sell you working you'll be like dude. I never thought of that before. That's really cutting edge you. Yes you can do them in a gym. No you don't need a gym so you can kind of do them. Anywhere is what I mean and in my Rehab Room I have zero machines zero weights and yet we rehab you know host off everything right Andras regular stuff headaches and you know back pain and Plantar Fasciitis tennis elbow all that stuff right and the tools the actual tools that the equipment you need that I have I have tumbling mat to lay on on the floor to do floor work with a Swiss ball are a couple of them right those big balls people sit on a stability trainer so I use the Therre band is just a piece of foam you know about like this big and it's a balanced trainer. Okay Okay and phone roller Lacrosse ball and elastic bands. Okay those are literally the only Rehab tools I have and coincidentally all of them are super low tech and really cheap yeah so the patients could do it at their house. Continuing exactly that is the idea now. It's so happens that you no you can pay hundred grand for a Hanoun machine which is a super fancy neck back rehab machine underground for or I can. I Bet I can beat their results with the Hanoun with my you know twenty dollar form roller and stuff like that so and the patient doesn't have anew that they can touch themselves up within the future the low tech no tech stuff pays off bigger and his cheaper and they can do it on there. I think we get excited for kettlebells and we get excited to see people do certain things especially AH athlete no athlete is just stick with athletes. Just because it's easier you can kinda see them saying look I used to do this. I can't do that now. Okay now can do it. Again and bans aren't going to get there but if you get really into band work there's different ways. I'm sure like you you can do two or three bands. If it's not strong enough you can buy this floss Bain a centimeter thick where you get massive resistance you can get super creative with a different motions that you can do if you can just get into a position where they needed this twist your body a little bit. Oh there it is now. Oh Wow okay. I'm really week. There now can make a good feeling. That's my guessing yeah. Oh yes so that's the thing you're you're right. They're very versatile. You know you can stand on do curls you can unwrap behind your back and do presses now. I will say this. I only get my patients to band exercises and I only use them for shoulder. In fact in shoulder my shoulder program only has to exercise and they are both done with bands and the rest are things that require no equipped okay but the to exercise. I can tell you right now. They're a middle row which is pulling in squeeze with chest out for a whole second and then release and then something I call it goalpost which is the bands are about chess tight in they pull back and pause in the position of football goalpost for whole second and then they lower their hands elbow. Stay up which address those between those two extra those hit the two most commonly neglected muscles around the shoulder which are retracted the shoulder which is this and external rotator which is this and if you think about it and I know your listeners can't see this but you can but if you think about it most of Davis spend in in the opposite position so protracted hunched over over computer so it only makes sense that the muscles that do this hunch over position are relatively stronger than the opposite ones and then the strong ones win. We get slouching but if you catch up the week ones not only does posture improve but you get this support protection back you that you were missing so I just plug in the missing thing basically didn't see it. You know when you flex your by your. I'm so strong like I said a goalpost pretty much shows. Abel's are both ninety degrees. That was the motion so that's pretty interesting. You know it's funny to see something to talk complicated. We make something and then yes obviously what you're saying. I think it's a little bit probably simplified because there's always does not that. You've learned over the last twenty years of actually you know in a little bit more complicated because you're able to see what they're doing. Then you modify your mom so based on when we're recording this versus when it comes out durant on the warriors just ruptured Achilles who knows that we don't know yet. Do you have any opinion about about that. Did you see it at all. I did not see that happen. It's they generally call it the Achilles rupture planted and and so he step backwards <unk> you see the muscle star Jiggling you like yeah and that's the mechanism of injury for that injury by the way so what will happen is and I've seen entreat. I'm diagnosed. Several on the football field. Actually actually volleyball is huge yeah so the way it happens and again knowing the listeners can't see this but if you're standing and if you imagine stepping back with one foot like you're about to back up and then bouncing forward off that back foot all in one emotion step back bounce forward stress. It's a sudden and I guess perhaps unprepared loading of that tendon. That's the way it happens now. I've soccer player recently who blew his and everyone anyone every patient you have that has this injury when you when they come in they say they had they're going to describe the feeling as someone shot them or threw a rock in hit them in the back of their ankle the IT always be they'll turn around and look to see if somebody kicked them. They always are convinced that someone attacked them some in some way because it's such a sudden kind of crisp impact feeling so <hes> the last soccer player I had to Achilles rupture. He said that was dribbling along with ball and said someone kicked me and I turned around and there was no one around me and I started yelling at people. They're like no man you're by yourself and jer noth- he was he ruptured captured yet so it's like prevent that because again athlete in that's an option ads just happened so yes there is the risky launch back launch forward launch Ford off back foot <hes> that we just described you know maybe modify void that don't do credits explosively but think about Achilles tendon right tendon is just it's the end of the calf muscles so the calf muscle tapers down becomes the Achilles attached with the he'll so the attendant is just the way muscle attached to a bone so it can then move it and cavs in an an Achilles are any tended need to have some elasticity to them now the reason they need last this so they can soak up that what impact instead of just snapping like a brittle twig you know so remember we were just saying flexibility. Problems are the number one problem for all patients with new moving parts issues or Musco skeletal issues which means they're not elastic so it just means they're they're more likely to snap then give and soak up the impact so improving calf and Achilles flexibility and there are two. I have to Castro upper cash stretch in a lower caste ridge. which is an Achilles stretch that I tell patients do so that's making sure the equipment can absorb the impact? That's what that addresses now. Also you can strengthen tendons themselves. Meaning attendant has like if you've been fishing you get like twelve pound contest <unk>. You've got fishing line. That has a certain amount of weight it will bear will tenants have a certain amount of weight that will bear to you can increase the amount of weight your own tenants will bear by doing e centric loading so e centric is the down in part of any movement essentially so if you were doing a curl you pulled the weight up towards your chest. That's the concentric part and then when you lower the way back down toward your thighs. That's the E centric part or people call it a negative GEICO. Yes yeah the negative part of that movement so what you do is you exaggerate the down part of a calf raise our he'll stay right like if you're stepping on the side of the stair the ammonia really lower so for example in our examples the Achilles I would have him stand with a four foot one four foot on a step holding on to something railing or something for balance go up to full tiptoe height and then spend six seconds lowering all the way down <hes> to a dead hang and then return path level yes to yeah so there he'll as low as it will go and then stand all the way up to tiptoe and then six seconds down again and then I will have them do one onset that ends when they can no longer reach full tiptoe homeless along. It's not as long as really is not as long as you think. Ten of those is a workout county do that today and an all have them do that once. Maybe twice a week and what you'll find is that week over week you can do a few more reps before you like first week. Maybe you can do in the eight second week. Maybe ten then twelfth so essentially your your calf is getting stronger but you're Achilles is getting stronger to which means it can withstand more load in his less likely to fail so that's a really long answer to your question. Do you find that it could be partly like a knee. Bio Mechanics is off as well absolutely aluminum in a vacuum if one right yeah so anything can contribute anything else in the closer the closer that other part is to the injured part the more the bigger potential effect. It can have so you're right. Let's say if you're if you had zero mobility in your knee and you're trying to run. Well what's going to happen is you're just going to be bouncing off your calves everywhere off your toes because you can't bend your knee. You have to get that movement somehow so that's an extreme example that illustrates your point. Which is yes best? If money doesn't track ride or I don't Mike Looser two week and then I'm trusting my calves to propel me forward more so essentially yes. You're absolutely right. That's where the assessment comes into you watching him do something you can't squat you you squad and you need new goes off to the side by that's not good are goes too far anyway. That's that's a problem. There is a foot foot hurts but really you got a whole other thing going on so basically my approach is they got an Achilles injury. I look at every possible contributor to that injury which is basically from will say ribs down hips lumbar spine knee quad glued all that stuff I._T.. Band cavs switch ankle and I just catalog we need deficits that I see whether the mobility our strength and then we just plug in the fix for those things and then we have more workers online to cover for that injured part because if the rest of your muscles are stronger than the Achilles has to do less work because it's uh-huh workload is being shared across more workers right and and you get more performance because you've got more workers and is less likely to hurt anyone spot because no one spot is doing that much there we go if that makes sense but we definitely went on a rabbit hole today and that is that uh-huh. I hope somebody learned something today. especially the mentioned in the pre roll your like really like the way the podcast set up for a new grads but I think you know whoever's listening to this if they're getting into more rehab and all that focus like okay okay they just learned something to grab onto in learn more about you know. Sometimes we just something sometimes and you're like what are they talking about. Oh I get that okay now. I know where at least go focus my attention on YouTube. Watch some videos or take a course or whatever and and and learn something yeah very good for doctors who are struggling or just starting out. What are some of the things that they should do? It doesn't have to be a lot just one or two that you find after having so much experience at day should definitely look into now. There's a couple of ways you could struggle. I'm guessing the most common candidate most people can be interested is struggling financially trying to keep the doors open. Try to get enough patients to pay yourself in your staff and your rent right so it is is that is that what you're meeting mostly behind your question there yeah we can do that. This is go within yes. Starting off is tough part obviously 'cause you're starting with zero patients. You know we all that's where we all start. I will say this for a new Grad or a soon to be Grad. Do what I did if at all possible which is find existing doctrine practice who is willing to here's the adopted from me. He paid me to be his exam doc so basic last shot his xrays as I did is exams I did you know therapies on his patients. Whatever and he paid me you know whatever three grand a month and he said in the off time when we're outside of our normal clinic hours you can see and treat your own patients in our inner office using using our staff to bill and all of our equipment and so on you can see your own patients during the off business hours and build your own practice that way in he said in exchange for that I would pay him forty percent of what I collect on top of was it makes sense so he's paying me and then I'm paying him a portion of what I make from my patients he's paying me treating his patients and he's allowing me to build my own practice and then he takes portion? The best which is a forty percent is a great deal because if you think about if you were to go start your own open your own shop your overheads going to be way more than four I mean it's going to be close. That's the normal mouthed I tell people they asked about becoming an associate or like invading contractor and you should aim for at least forty because you're not gonna get much more than that but you don't WanNa go to like twenty because then you you just you might as well the different job because that's way too much work to get a salary that you can survive on yeah and I mean on the first day opened when you have no patients. Your overhead is one hundred percent here any revenue you know but hopefully work down but but so what that let me do was <hes> build a practice at a pace I could handle you know and not go broke and not collected from a place. If I had my own place and then I ended up out outgrowing his office because my practice got big enough and then I opened my own which is I've had for eight years now. I guess that this really strange that he would like that because normally we're always I know compete or at least one mile. What can I grab onto legally that they can enforce those guys going to just take all my patients? There's always that fear and he's just embracing it already. Say No. I expect that you're going to do this so and the year right and I think the non compete thing is it's hard to enforce. It's it's hard to enforce yeah and but the other thing too is I didn't take any of his patients. All I did was go open up my own shop with my own patients and and for him he he should he is incentivized. Who Want me to succeed while I'm in his office because the more money I make the more he makes the cost him nothing? You know I'm just free money coming in you WanNa work seventy hours a week buddy go for it yeah yeah so it cost him. Nothing is a win win for both he and I and if any as the end of your listeners who are <hes> soon to be grads or new grads <unk> approach these days times are hard. You know they always our approach any established doc especially if you have a reporter with them or you know them your respect the way they practice looks like <hes> especially if they have space someone. You'd like to spend time with and just ask them say hey. I'll make this deal with your. Do you need an associate or any associate job that comes up up and you're considering see if they will do that as well. I hadn't thought I can't imagine why they would just made me think too. We almost trying to be creative. Maybe working on massage therapist clinic and start start smaller rinse base in you know other carpenters awesome. That's an interesting idea. If you're willing to work some strange hours you might find a carbon all of us that you liked that set up the way you would want it to be approach them fifty fifty split forty sixty split something after hours and you just work on Saturdays now your family life might be strange for awhile 'cause you're off until like six o'clock at night you only worth three or four hours a day. I don't know how that would play out but it's something to get started and you can experiment. It's a swear there's not the the risk of complete failure failure just around the corner at all times which if you if you get a lease on a place yourself is going to be at least a six month lease a year lease. You're locked into that thing and you're on the hook for that stuff even if you fail after three months they're gonNA come. Ask You for the rest of that money. You may not have it but they're coming after you anyway so all. That risk is gone if you do it this way. We're talking about and it's it's an easy. It seems like it would be an easy sell for the hiring hiring doctor the hiring doctors associate to do that because like I was saying it's free money for them very interesting. I did work for year and a half as just straight up associate in a group practice right at a school. That's what I did. I I really do recommend that approach because it lets you gets both some experience working with real patients and seeing how they treat your you know you're at your attending clank. Director treats in how they want you to treat. You're gonNA develop your thoughts on how you like things done. It may not be the way they're making you. Do it was the case with me. I really didn't like the approaches that we took but it really informed what I did want to do going forward once I started on my own and not I'm not opposed to the associates. Get Out of school going to do that because like you said there's so much you don't. I don't know are you could find too especially how to communicate because my goodness you could be a marketing machine and they just run right out the back door because you don't know what to tell them to make them understand. This is what's wrong with you and is why she come in and I'm like no oh crazy twenty visit package. I'm just saying even four to six visits. If you don't want to communicate what you're doing they might be going in to and that's not right either so you can learn that on somebody else's dime and another little absol- another soapbox and I think a group group that I mean we we say the same thing usually paying your associates. Well not like crazy well but they shouldn't have to worry about. Should I go barten- after hours and because you don't even pay me enough to cover my basic living and that seems seems to be something that happens and luckily we are seeing the trend where you know these doctors. I guess are waiting before they can say okay. I can afford it now. Here's sixty grand are fifty five thousand or something like that plus bonuses and now we can you know focus more on patient care versus okay. What do I do this month? 'cause I can't even cover it all so just frustrating to me right <hes> do you market at all any tips for that. I rely almost I'll say super heavily on yelp and Google Um reviews and I will say that is the cheapest well there. I mean they are free both of them and it is a place that potential patients turn to more and more. I mean you know if you're looking for. WHO's the best mechanic on my side of town? You'll go look at Google yelled. I duNNo. Do you guys have yelp. They're in China. No we've got our own. They got their own everything they knock off of. You can imagine okay but a review we go and and basically my my that's. The single best thing you can do is start accumulating reviews because time is going to go by regardless may come very slowly but they will accumulate a lot of Yokum just like this guy must be paying yelp a lot to keep them all current so not because I've heard yelps crazy but <hes> you got a lot of us that something like that that's a takes effort and it does and guess what I don't pay them anything. <hes> and you're right that they don't show <hes> let's see I think they don't show it's all I'll look here but it's something so it's something like eighty reviews are hidden so I think I have seventy something show seventy five showing but they're eighty tons so basically I think yes yes so it's very frustrating but it is worth it. Just stick with keep the ones you have but here's what I'll say they're the best practice to get them is when you release a patient from care and they are at their happiest. That's when you send them a little shorts. I do a little form email. It's just a <hes>. It's just a canned response in my g mail. I just right the email once in basically says by the way so-and-so congrats on your recovery you put in the hard work. I'm really happy with your results so far. If you have a second would you mind rating us on Google or YELP. Here's how to find as and of course if you don't have time it's no problem regardless. If you've ever have questions let me know that's the email and I just send it to every happy patient and they just start accumulating so on on you don't even automated is just I guys finish. Girls Finish up sinned Yup for the guest listening. There's a couple of podcast episodes further back that actually have people that do this like ninety ninety ninety nine and you can pay people to have it all set up automated in case you're like. I ain't doing all that. I'm not supposed to remember all of that kind of stuff. I have the cheapskate version is free my way but and it's worked for me so far oh I want to ask you so you've been volleyball. I understand how you can get into that like if you're into volleyball. You're at events already played. You're an athlete in that Area Natural Sir treating your friends right friends know people and all of a sudden now you're you're hooked up at the M._v._p.. And you're like but the part of Justin is curious about is you do stuff with bans. Is that common just a one time thing what is up with that. It's kind of fluky thing so they called me out of the blue so there are companies whose job it is to manage healthcare for road shows like big bands at travel right and get some carpal tunnel or something guitar picking Yeah and so they may get massage therapist chiropractors or medical doctors whatever and so this person's job is to locate and court get the the healthcare the band members need and this case. It was <hes> thirty seconds to Mars which here here in the U._S.. Their music is played all the time. It's jared LETO WHO's an academy award winner by the Way Oscar winner his brother Shannon Leto who's the drummer for the ban and interesting story so the lady just call me who runs his company and she said she said Hey. I've I've got the band in town. She'd actually called me for a Transsiberian Orchestra also several years ago and said we may need you. They're going to be in towns. A lot of people yeah. That would have been a job we we may need and they ended up knowing ended up needing me so I didn't get ago but but they did this time but she said I looked around. It looks like you're the best chiropractor in town. Would you WANNA do this job at tastes two hundred fifty dollars for an hour's work so I I was like yeah. I'll do that now the interesting so I guess she just look me up online so again that goes back to review all those reviews S. so that's how you asked. How do you get these crazy gigs? It's the reviews Dr Buckling handed down so I got there and I worked on Shannon. He's just wonderful. DUDE IS SUPER FIT super clean and everything and really nice guy did some work on the shoulder he had rotator cuff tendonitis and then. He said he said hey man you know. Drummond is hard work and I want to know if you would mind watching me play and just see if you have any tips tricks for me <hes> after I'm done like as to how I can protect my shoulder as like sure he said come on out with me so I walked onstage with the band of my Gosh and he's like here you can you can stand right here is standing right next to the drum kit and then it is a packed arena lay before me. It was a surreal moment and I sit there and listened in watch the entire concert my good so it's it's if if you develop a reputation which again comes with time more and more of these these kinds of things just kinda fall in your lap <hes> the M._v._p.. They gave me a call for that too so the pro volleyball tours been in Austin the now three years in a row and they call me every year when they're coming and ask if I'll do it. Of course I do. I don't get paid anything for that but I get to work on Olympic gold medalists in all my favorite athletes and they we all know each other now we'll get to joke around in the Nile so get zoo courtside lied medical which is cool and actually watch the players. You know if they I mean when I think about that. All the work that you gotta do up potentially could do in a weekend when you're not getting paid you get the put like A._V._p.. Preferred doctor me like New Orleans Saints Prefer Chiropractor type of stuff in answer to that call that yet like <hes> like advertise asser ships yeah you get the ability to put that on stuff no in the wording you gave me. They're actually actually very strict about how we can describe it so basically I describe what I do as I'm on the A._V._p.. Medical Support Team. It's a different team in every city so like on our team for and I can say that that I can't say that I am an official A._V._p.. Doctor I cannot say official anything but I can say I'm Dr on the M._v._p.. Medical Support Okay so you can use that for some advertise inadvertently yeah absolutely I almost did that for the Olympic do toured snowboarding for the X. Games and stuff like that they were gonNA apply and deal this kind of stuff and at that point of Micros like yeah I'm not I'm not ready to work on Shaun white or something like that. I was like Nah. I know where I'm at you. You know what you know what I'll tell you man next time that happens just do it. You'RE GONNA be there will be okay now. You would want on who gets an opportunity like that just do. That's what I did. I took on tons of stuff. I was not qualified for and I was terrified but once you do it you you really care about doing a good job and you'll learn from it and then it makes you want to learn more how to fix that same thing when the opportunity comes again so it's a great motivator and also once you do the scary thing and you don't die then it becomes next year the next time at in divesture. Yes us <unk>. He what's exciting you for the future which you got any five goals that you're looking forward to I do. I'm actually taught to courses to see courses for the A._C._A.. The American Association on their Era Learn A._C._A.. Platform so they have to rehab courses my low back. We have programs on there and I get no money for that there. They were Webinar formats but you can watch them on demand in A._C._A.. Gets all the proceed so it's just kind of me see helping them out but it's also fun for me to do if the resume builder yeah and I'm starting a series of live seminars that that's the thing I'm most excited about because its teeth I have three. They're low back neck and shoulder in Ne- Rehab Protocols Protocols and they'll be live hands on and I know this. This is effectively plug but you ask what most excited about. I am most excited about this. They're all gonna be in Texas for now but I'd like to expand but there live hands on we'll take you from consult to report findings to <unk> are exam reporter findings and then it take you all the way through each step of the patient encounter all the way through the rehab process that progression and then returned turned play prevention and released from care so in every everything that I do with patients we'll all do together so every exercise every stretch every bit of massage miles hash released everyone will get to do have hands on experience with that so I'm excited about spreading this approach so that all chiropractors can use physical therapist if they wanna come to but <hes> that's the thing I am most excited about now I would also. I WANNA be your my first podcast. I've ever been and on and on superstock that was you were one of my goals by the way to the on a podcast and you graciously invited me and so I thank you for that I do WanNa be. I want to be on Joe Rogan. I want to be on Joe Rogan. I want to do a tedtalk so goals are like they're up there and who knows if all achievement but those are those are the things that I want in the next time ten years well Ted talk seems to be doable yeah. If you watch enough you can kind of almost say hacked the system but you can definitely find a way to do it. <hes> we've had two on the show inadvertently guy got on for marketing one guy got on Chiropractic and he had like he was was interested in he had a innate intelligence ish type which which I'm not a big fan of that were but was able to to to package that for kids in have talk about that and it was like and you present something so does give encouragement that that's what you WanNa do. There's those text events. I'm pretty sure there's an Austin when you may have to go to someplace else. Austin might be too intense for the first time Austin's a hotbed. They got so much stuff going on right. We'll see I'll be terrified but if I get a chance Kim Fair somewheres somewheres yeah. I said you gotTa do yeah. That's a need to know you need to know the seminars that you're gonNA put on sounds to me like you show up. I don't know if it's a two day or one day but one day eight Monday eight hour one day perfect Monday morning. You'RE GONNA have a lot of notes but you can really just hit the hit the ground and sounds to me like it could be somebody who's looking to get their feet wet. Maybe they were an innate intelligence doctor. Maybe they're like you know what I needed. Change I I needed Rehab and it'd be more evidence based. My patients deserve better and they're like what am I do like. I don't know where to go with the start with. Maybe I need to go check this guy out. It's only one day and then from there they can actually bill. They feel like wow yeah couple of months later. Maybe I need to build more on it. Okay cool all these similar as you can do are not feel great. Let me do this for a few years in Gabby wetter right and that's exactly how you're right. It's either for someone who's been you know maybe they just worked on on spines and they're really good at fixing back next what and so on but they wanna add some more tools in their tool bags that they can use to fix patients either current nations or a whole new population the patients that wouldn't come to them for knee pain for example or for her post op anything so you can grow your practice and profitability and the benefit that you can give other patients in the community if you have more tools in your toolbag and that's kind of how the that's how I think about this it just it lets me choose choose a more precise tool for things rather than just final nip and and then the electrostatic ultrasound traction <hes> heat nice stuff which those hand usefulness but their usefulness is low lower then some of these other tools that are available available. You shouldn't be doing very very much couple visits some east them and then you know move on yes kind of how it looks at it yeah and we'd be remiss without saying doing they might be doing some kind of rehab because they know they can get paid for it but if you're doing some real stuff and you can feel confident like you're doing real service you can w practice right there because that's a whole another charge. Yes and extremities is another charge. You write an insurance companies. Pay Way more for the Rehab stuff like a therapeutic exercise for example pay thirty bucks for that whereas for you know eastern. They're gonNA pay what six four dollars something takes yeah so no more time but you get more money yeah so the reason insurance companies pay more is because that that is more effective than those. Are you a cash practice the courage insurance which thoughts we're almost a will accept cash but we're mostly insurance based so it's probably something like Nick Ninety percent insurance major medical. Are you happy with that. You feel like if you could do it over. Would you get out or at this point. What are your thoughts? You know yeah you're right so so of course there's benefits and drawbacks arrested each. I fantasize about a cash back this. I will say that because everything is so much simpler you know you need fewer staff like right. Now I only have one staff member and she's amazing and she's a certified five billing specialists and she's great what she do she doesn't she's worked for me for twelve years but as impressive but I pay her a lot of money you know and if I would you know I'm not looking forward to let one person we should have I knew but do you need a sixty thousand dollars a year person or do you need a thirty thousand dollars a year person to answer phones in schedule. You know what I mean so that would be the difference between an insurance for cash base <hes> you can hire some like a high school in Turner you know someone who's not specially skilled and therefore requires a bigger salary to answer phones and Book Appointments With Cash Practice and plus. You get your money immediately you can you can make deals in practice and prices is you don't have to worry about contract prices and all that and you don't have to worry about audits you know so. It is very attractive but it's it's. It's my background that I think about. We'll do see how the healthcare landscape shapes up going forward of course it's kind of getting crazier and crazier as far as major medical coverage in Obamacare and all that are you finding that you take insurance. That's great back in the day was a twenty dollar copay but they're pretty much are going to be paying the full price because they have the duct. Will that has to be miss. This is just an easier conversation <unk>. You need six visits. Your insurance won't cover you. GotTa pay to meet your deductible so you're still gonNA come out about seventy five bucks visit <unk>. It'll drop down to your twenty percent or whatever it is but yet you're still looking and at seventy five dollars a visit so you're asking is it easier to since the deductibles are so high. Everybody knows that is used to that yeah because everybody ends up being through your kind of the fact that cash practice because of the high deductibles are noticing that it affects treatment plans or the people having a hard harder time committing to care for us not as much as I think other PE- teashops are chiropractic office that bigger plan so just so you know my my average I I looked over twenty eighteen. I looked at every every single patient <unk> twenty eighteen I had six hundred sixty or eighty new patients and our average treatment per patient visits per patient was two point six nine. The thin that's six is great and so because but that's my release criteria by the way is patient is eighty percent better. They're equipped to get the remaining progress on their own and they're equipped to not need me again Dan and once. I feel that they've reached that released them so so we're getting well really fast. You do like a follow up in couple in two months. Make sure they were there. I usually don't I usually don't I do tell them that they all my patients have my personal cell. Cell phone and that my email they are have orders to collar email me say ever have questions I tell them email and most of them are good about that and then if it looks like if they have a problem the emails is a little tweak. I'd send it to him is not as Camman but my my point to answer your question. Our average collection per new patient per patient is two hundred fifty five dollars. It's terrible. It's that's a lifetime visit avid. I think that's what it is like. Origin are averaged collections. Her patient is two hundred fifty dollars so with costs at low pretty much. Anyone will agree to do that so we don't have a lot of drop off because the high deductibles because like you said it is effectively. It's a defacto catch practice already and the like we'll invest that for when you when you can say hey three visits you know two point six. I mean some people got four is some people only had two. You know so there's orienting yes so there's definitely okay. I interviewed view. The guy he goes. Logan was better in four or come. No more something like that and that's the WHO was theory was like if I can get you seen results or whatever and four visits he's like. I'm not doing my job right. I like that appro. That's a different viewpoint than a lot of places where it's come lot or well and that viewpoint you just quoted. There happens to be the very thing the patient cares most about his they came to you because they don't feel good and they can't do things. All they really care about. Is I want to feel better and be able to do things and if that happens to be your goal as well and you're measuring your effectiveness on that scale. They're gonNA love you because they're like hey. This guy wants exactly what I want so I'm going to do whatever he says and your system does have like a Capri check and then two visits for visits whatever it is there. They've met the goal that we wanted now. That might take eight visits because you had a torn Achilles. That's obviously take more than two visits so there's some way to Yup Yup quantify this. Yes yes there is you that is an excellent question so I use an outcomes assessment tool for that so there are many many right. There's a neck oswestry in the loan baggers. Forget all the name rolling nor has whatever Yes yes and I use the P. S. F. S. which is the patient specific functional scale. It was recommended to me by the head of research at T._C.. Her name Cheryl Hawk and I asking her for the best tool to to kind of quantify my results that I get with patients. She said this one and it happens to be super easy to administer patients. Get it and it's it's it's. I do it right there in my patient note so the weight works is day one after consult but before exam you ask the patient what are the three activities you are most limited from because of your pain and so let's say if they have their their for low backman it's going to be putting on pants issues and socks in the morning getting up and down from a chair or putting clothes in the driver for example so those three common activities that are painful and I'll say now give me a score for each of those for how well you can do them zero is I cannot do them. At all ten. I can do those things as easily and comfortably as I ever have so low number is worse so if Zeros can't do it all and they say oh I can. I have my wife. Put my pants. Choose on for me. Then that's <unk>. I'll say the two right so then you get three numbers you Adam together and divide by three so let's say it was a two three and four with the scores they gave us so that means the average is going to be a three and I believe it's my masters right so that's their initial functional score then when I the day I released them. I asked them the same questions and let's say they're like a it's a seven eight nine. So then the average there isn't as so they went from a three tonight so they had an improvement of five functional points which is actually a really big improvement on that scale and then I track all those kind of obsessive but I track all those in a spreadsheet on Google seats and I'm keeping data on them and then I I wanNA publish published a case series on my results once I'm up around one hundred hundred twenty patients so far that I've been doing this hundred twenty new patients as starting to be pretty good number there so nice little in sample value yeah nice in a number so I wanna wait till I may get two hundred and then publisher case series on and these are all injuries all body parts pre post op niece neck shoulder bag wherever I'm launching them all together because I'm using the same treatment method for for all doc some trying to evaluate my treatment methods versus sate physical therapists or other chiropractors or they choose you can compare this Achilles person versus the other fifteen Julie's persons treated this year and why did half of those not good better. You are the only improved to like what's up with that. Yes revaluate yourself to you like Oh. I change something halfway through the year or I learned something or whatever absolutely let's switch gears already. You got the questions ahead of time personally ready for this sure you're in the great city of Austin. They keep it weird. They do say vacationing vacation and are able take any. What are you doing a disconnect from the office so I did in February I went to Puerto Rico actually and I I use actually was a very cheap trip to so what I did is is as you do a timeshare where you had listened to an hour presentation? Oh but that can work. I've done that before I went on a on a overnight state to the Bahamas on one of those just keep saying no yes just keep saying no and they have to give it to you so I have done that but not I didn't do that on this time but I I signed up for card to southwest airlines chase card and if they had a special going if you sign up for the car they give you fifty thousand miles with let on mccaw right and then all I do I by all of my gas in groceries for awhile it. Let me pay my rent that way so I got tons of miles so I got my airfare free and I've got like it's just piling up I have tons of airfare and you can use verana rental cars and stuff too so that was really cheap and spent a week there and then stayed in airbnb which are cheaper than hotels by the way we're comfortable. Typically more comfortable in you get to live like local then we prepared our own food did eat as much as we might usually <hes> so that ended up being an affordable fund getaway and it's really a lot for Rico's yeah so that's something and then I also like little stations. I call them or other people. Call which is is maybe go camping. There's place called Inks Lake or a campground somewhere in May go there and camp out just on a Saturday night and then wake up grill over the fire that stuff is fine or her go tubing down the river for example which is cheap as well there we go. I like it ideas. You don't have to go in these extravagant vacations. You know the to have a good time. I think it would chase with my own car that I have. If you book through their website you can get twenty percents more value on your points for air furrow but I was checking sometimes and I was like that's great but it wasn't even cheaper so it's like if I use Kayak. I can actually get a better price versus yours but every now and then that's not the case where if you do to Churches WanNa get twenty percents more points value. The other one is okay. It doesn't council. I'm GonNa just get the get. The car points overlooked. I think yeah yeah and in some cards I have better deals than others but but I've I've been very happy with that. They just keep piling up. All my airfares are gonNA be free yeah. I don't fly that often. This is rain into just when we're talking about with my card if you knew I'm GonNa go shop on Walmart. I'M GONNA shop at by some bose speakers or a Hobo. There's like two hundred stores you actually go through their portal through chase or whatever being you know you probably have the same situation and you click that and you go to buy whatever you're GONNA buy on that for every dollar you spin you can get to five ten points extra. Wow Yeah so home depot that out because I think hope depot lows that means you just get ten times the points for the same dollar that you spent and Y'all do who was inconvenient yourself a little bit instead of just going on Amazon okay. I'M GONNA definitely check that out. That's not leaving on the table. Thank you yeah yeah so random homework life balance hobbies volunteer which you got for us so <hes> first of all. I have a very easy schedule so I set my own schedule obviously so I work five days a week but only two of those are full days. The rest are just mornings so Monday and Wednesday. I am seven thirty to six Tuesday Thursday seven thirty to noon Tuesday Thursday Friday when you do the rest of the day man so I like I went to the gym earlier. I shot some videos for my youtube channel which that's another great marketing things that I didn't mention when you're talking about. I think he just getting started with it yeah so I would recommend but I shot like five or six videos from Youtube channel that I'll be posting over the next week and caught. I talked to my mom. I mean you just do this stuff during the during weekday that you don't always have an opportunity to do so sometimes I'll take a nap on not play volleyball so I usually play on Thursdays and Fridays and then I played volleyball tournament. I'm at last Saturday a real quick these short hours. You've been business for quite a while and that's something that someone in the first year to Mitch Doer. Should they just work long hours. That is a great question. I actually adopted the schedule because that is the same schedule Agile. The senior doc who I was working with initially that told you let me build my practice for forty percent those hours he also your after hours were afternoon. It wasn't even six to nine o'clock at night exactly exactly so all I had in that case. I had Tuesday Thursday Friday afternoon and Saturday. If I wanted it Saturday morning I wanted. That's a question should ask. I'm assuming it's between six and ten o'clock at night and you know it just a normal afternoon shift yes. I'm young. I'm hungry. Why would I go home and do nothing so and I just kept? I've kept those hours because we haven't filled them. You know I've expanded them a bit. You know we used to open eight. I assault open at seven thirty used to leave at noon and come back at two thirty now lately comeback too so we're we're starting to fill up and get more. I mean think this week I have fifteen new patients this week. Today's Tuesday yesterday at five new patients yesterday and they start filling up you know and so it once it gets the point where hey we're staying pretty busy every week. Let's add another thirty minute slot and that's you know to patients. I can see or one new patient catching. She not just sitting around at your office all day like let's just hours. I want maximum out. If we're getting too busy waiting list. We'll just add some more hours and I'll just work another couple of hours one day and go from there absolutely yeah it does sought to sit in your empty office hoping someone does moralizing for I remember those days. I remember those days. It's it's there the longest days. Are you always answering your phone or somebody's answering your phone though I have someone who answers as long as it's covered because you call a chiropractor onto the at three o'clock he expect some other to answer the phone Yep Okay Tomorrow Yeah Okay. Do you have any favorite blogs. PODCASTS are books that would recommend and they can range from business to pleasure okay. Absolutely I will say podcast wise. I'm following. You and I also really like in highly recommend the forward thinking lights. I don't know if you've heard that has bobby. Maybe that bobby maybe he has some heavy hitters on there. He has those guys I told you about. He has really long podcast interviews with Great Greg Wrigley. Now I will say they're not all great as as far as books go I read a book by an author named Katherine Rahman R. A. M. I. N.. I believe and she wrote a book called crooked and it's about uncovering <hes> I think corruption or something in the in the back pain okay field and so I really liked your book thorough God bless she had obtained for a law amish <unk>. She basically chronicles are paying an all the people she software all the different approaches including directors yeah it's very interesting read so I actually reached out to her at emailed her and we ended up skype talking and stuff like that too and I gave her some of my account took a little console whether and gave her some stuff it's difficult to do you telemedicine that way but I did give her some stuff but her book is really good for pleasure right right now. I'm reading the Mcclain's the adventures Huck Finn Okay the classics and <hes> This is totally off healthcare at this point but there's a book called the name of the wind by Patrick Rothfusz. It's a trilogy and it's a kind of a fantasy but really well done it takes. It gets a little a little slow start but if you like if you like Harry Potter if you like any even marvel or any of the fantasy stuff at all it's fantastic and I predict it will become a series of movies. It's that good we on the inside track so yes yes right Dr Daniel Bachman. How can more people get in touch with you? What's the websites and all of that absolutely so <hes> first of all I welcome anyone <hes> if anyone if you're a student and I've already talked to the student the American carrot the Second Studio Karaoke Association at our to Texas tools and said any of your suits WanNa talk to me or bounce cases off the or shadow me in my office? You're more than welcome. There's no shards or anything I dislike talking with you guys and I'll make the same offer to your listeners. <HES> give you my cell number and it's five one to five eight nine two eight two zero. My email is Dan at Bachman technique. Nick DOT COM so bachman is spelled B. as in boy O._C.. K. M. as in Mary a n n <hes> and then technique as so bachman technique dot com now also <hes> you guys are welcome to check out my youtube youtube channel. Which of course is also free? It's it's where I answer. Common clinical questions I get from patients or other people and also talk about my route have approach so you'll find that on youtube if you search bachman technique against B. C. K. so feel free any and all I mean including you yourself doc. If you have cases you want to collaborate on I'm hat. I love talking about this stuff. Being the detective trying to work together to crack a case is indeed right. I really appreciate your time and opening up with a lot of how to and some of the numbers and all that just makes you feel like guys a real guy. He's approachable relatable and we really feel your passion in what what you're doing so I really do appreciate you taking the time coming on the show man dot thanks for letting me come on and you have yourself great day. That was a powerful interview like always say please listen critically think about it and then implement an older people don't always make it through the end of the episodes but I encourage if you've made it here and you you talk to your friends about it and courtroom to do it. I think the the family and vacation and the home life balanced part of the in is important. It's something that I didn't get in a lot of those other podcasts that I was listening to so check about Minnesota Thursdays and Saturdays those come out. Let me know what you think about that. If you have an episode that you want me to do for the audience just send me message on facebook Justin Chocolate M._c._c. is the official page of everything about me. You find the books acupuncture puncture no needle book the Today's Choices Tomorrow's health book that talks about weight loss exercise dieting and financial health. You can get free chapters at dot net slash chapters or slash in a protocol so that way you can experience experience the book before you buy them. If you sit in interviews that I've been part of where the roles have been reversed its dot net slash as heard on the resources page on the website has all the products that are recommend and there's some deals for some of those so check that out and has always if you click any of the hotlinks in the Sonos page for books we piece of that and we appreciate that as well the dot net slash support is the webpage if you want about a host a cup of coffee and lastly reviews always always appreciate it and so grateful when you get so that's a doctor's perspective dot net slash reviews. You'll have a great week. We just went hashtags behind the curtain. I hope you will listen.