Summer Movies and TV That Fill You With Dread . . . In a Good Way
Hello. And welcome to little Goldman, the awardees and podcast from Vanity Fair. It's such an honors present this next award nominees, and the group. And I can't deny the fact that you like me. On the. Mistake. Light. You guys won best picture. I'm Katie rich the deputy editor of Vanity, Fair dot com. And I'm here as always with our digital director, Mike HOGAN, hey, Katie, Archie critic, Richard Lawson Colo, and our senior writer Joanna Robinson. Hi Katie this week, we have a nice grab bag of things to talk about from television to film to films that are not coming out for many months, and then in the back of the episode, we're going to have an interview that VS lar- Bradley did with Marisa Tomei who played Edith bunker, in the live Norman Lear, all in the family revival. That happened a couple of weeks ago and really kind of, you know, literally channel the spirit of Jean Stapleton as she will talk about in the interview. But first of all, I want to talk about something that popped up as a somewhat of a surprise to me. I didn't quite realize it was going up this morning as we record this. We debuted a bunch of photos from, Greta gerwig Little Women annotation, which is coming out. I don't know that has a specific day, but it'll be out later this year. It's reuniting her researcher Ronin and Timothy shallow may. It's got Watson a role. It's, it's incredibly exciting. I've been excited about it even before these photos, showed up. Did you guys all swoon as hard for these Little Women? Oh, does as I did. Yeah. They're gorgeous photos. And, you know, the costuming looks not overly lavish, but very tailored, and beautiful. And you know, it's, it's crazy to see everyone assembled together in there. I mean, there was some like, like kind of 'paparazzi photos from the set. But like, you know, this is like the way it's gonna look on screen, and it, just yeah. I mean it's, it's, it's exciting and judging from Twitter reaction, people are like ready to go for this movie. Not super surprising. I guess there's some really nice baskets beautiful. The, the photo that I tweeted was photo of socia- and Timothy looking at each other, and she's wearing this kind of like jacket in Thailand, this menswear thing, and she's playing Joe who's like literature's most famous tomboys, and there's a lot of time in the article that Sarai wrote about kind of giving over to the relationship between the two of them and how they kind of like meet in the middle. And Joe like you know in some ways wants to be a boy, and they have this friendship, and then just like, haven't read, Little Women in a long time, and it made me so excited probably to read the book again, and then revisit it from an adult perspective. One of my favorite things about this article that sunny and the team put together is, there's so many references to the book, like there's the, the, the beautiful shot assertion on, on the rug with, like our hair all sort of spilled out. Joe's famously beautiful hair sort of spilled out all around her and the capture something like one of the very first lies of the books mentions. Just fondness for lying on the floor. I was like this is the content I'm here for. References and so excited. This one's for the fans. For the book news for the Alcott heads Elisa, Elisa Scanlon, who we talked to you for the so washing podcast when we were covering sharp objects. She was just such an electric presence in that show last year. And I've been really excited to see her. Do Beth who is like a much different wildly different character. But I just think she's such talent that I'm really ready to see her pop and then Florence is it pews at he pronounce her last name? I think so as Amy like she's incredible in everything she's done. And so it's just it's a an amazing cast and additionally all of that beautiful costumer amazing gas. And then every shot where you see, Greta in Greta gerwig in frame like doing director hands, or whatever I get really excited about with Meryl Streep. Tackling their aunt. Yeah. That's cool to see obviously you know, Greta gerwig reunite with Timothy Salaman, sir show Ronin after lady bird, and then I love this, quote, because I think if Greta gerwig eternally as like Francis high as a very like contemporary, sort of borderline punk rock, like already person. And so it's interesting to see her do, like a period piece by love this quote. She gave Sonya where they were just people. They were not in a period piece. They were just living there were those modern people who had ever existed up to that point. And that suggests like a, a hopefully, a fresh, you know, modern look at this whole thing or maybe not modern, but, like, just giving it the life of re time as its lived not looking back in some nostalgic way. No. Exactly, mike. And I think that, that's, that's really tricky, because sometimes people kind of overly period, the period piece. Yeah. And, you know, I think about something like years ago. Mike Lees fill mister Turner or just what I saw it can that portrait of lady and fire where you watch movies, and it sounds like a silly thing to say because I certainly wasn't alive them. But you're like I bet this act. Really, what it was like, you know, and like a quote like that makes me a hope in that, like, are we could be on the right track. In terms of getting very lived in textured kind of thing, not to say that the nineteen ninety four film, the killing Armstrong film, isn't. But like you know that was twenty five years ago. It's now you know, new generation can experience the, the story on film. So, yeah, it has been excited and those costumes, which, again, aren't overly or Nate also I think lend us that, that to that sense of, of authenticity. And I thought the pink converse, all stars was an interesting touch to threaten. Phoenix. Well, I think it's funny because it's, it's good that you mentioned the Gillian Armstrong version, because for people our age, she weren't complete weirdos. And it had already seen like the Elizabeth Taylor Katharine Hepburn versions of Little Women. So Gillian Armstrong's felt like a third remake by the time came out about ninety four. But like that film, the ninety four film is such an iconic film, for so many people. The fact that there's so much excitement around Greta during this is really incredible as opposed to resistance of like how dare she this is my, this is my definitive version, this nineteen Ninety-four version, and like that reception to this project. I think speaks to how much Norma's goodwill, she has built up after lady bird and just the impeccable way the that she's cast this film. Yeah. It's we talked about trailers, occasionally on the show, but very rarely to be talking about photos in this much detail, which I think maybe says something both the house, sending these photos are. And how excited we are as a group, for Little Women and starved for Oscar stuff. I mean we have. Reveal of these photos, and we also had a first up, I think it's production still from west side story, the Steven Spielberg movie we started filming in New York. And, you know, I'm not gonna base any real opinion on one photo from from west side story. But, you know that has a much more like cinematic Jonah's Kaminsky kind of looked to it, which, you know, maybe says that the film won't have the kind of gritty authenticity that one might hope I sort of more modern west side story, but still I'm excited. It's fun to sort of Sirte. See these first trickles of what we're going to be talking about a lot of this podcast in about five months. Do you think it's possible to improve on the first west side story, doesn't it seem like an act of extreme hubris to just be like let me remake this again? Yeah. That's I mean that's a little nuts. Especially when you have something like Jerome Robinson's choreography being so essential to using the choreography on our. Yeah. If they are then great because there was a, a Broadway revival had story, a few years ago that didn't use the choreography of and you kind of. Sort of partly used it, and it was like. Not quite. The, the tweet that I saw sorry to like reference tweets on a podcast. But the tweet that I saw that really summed up my take on that. I was story photo is at that saucer James were at Westside story nineteen sixty one versus beige, the musical and just compared to photos and it's just a promo photo. But the new production, it does just look so muted in washed out intentionally so probably, but compare it to the pop of color that you get in west side story, the pops of color is just, you know, it is it is huge choice. Huge swing. And I guess the thing that the twenty twenty version has in his favor is a casting younger, and be casting, actually like Latino actors and actresses and these roles also people who are going to sing, unlike Natalie wood did. She didn't say the original, I think that casting Timothy Shalam is officer Kripke that feels. Refers. They just like flipped. The switch on the Martin. Scorsese Irishman machine. Georgia north owning I think was this story I won't be out till next year. Oh, yeah. Set for December twenty December eighteenth two thousand twenty so this December we get cats musical next December week at west side story musical, can we handle it in this post greatest showman world, I guess, December is the time for musicals? We'll see me like why not? Okay. Let's see movies for a minute, before we jump in to one recent TV obsession Richard last night. You were at what seemed like not just any press screening for mid somewhere, like it is this one that you got like sent a hand-stitched invitation to go to. And then all of New York press was there kind of expecting to have the, the live scared out of them. Pulled up to the Conde offices in a stage coach. They did send a physical invite that was kind of a pop up that was cool. I never received. So I just had to respond to any Email boring. But yeah, so they did a screening in Brooklyn at the Alamo draft house, which is always nice to have a Brooklyn screening. They did a screening simultaneously in Los Angeles, Austin, and I believe one other city, and they really were ramping up excitement for this. And I was like, Shirley, there will be an embargo, like we're not going to be able to tweet about it or or file reviews. And I emailed, and they said, no, there's no Bargo say whatever you want after the movie's over and I talked to Nicolette from Berg from each twenty four inches like we never have embargoes, which was like, oh, I've never noticed twenty four. But guess unless it's like a Cannes film festival, never hasn't Bargo. So they really wanted to create a sense of excitement more than they're already was based on the fact that this is the guy who made hereditary and the trailers are so effective in the poster art is so effective. There are a couple of technical difficulties which bent are screening had to start late, which was, I think actually kinda only added to the excitement. The cast was there are Yasser was there. They did a QA afterward. So the movie had a lot. Kind of going for it as it's, you know, the credits rolled let's say and then I think it's delivered. I mean, it's a really disturbing not quite jump scary movie, but just creepy that also deals a lot with grief similar to hereditary. So I if I filed a kind of gushy review last night, I don't know what it's like popular boxoffice kind of potential is. It's pretty illuminating, your remember, like hereditary, though, it did well at the box office had, like a terrible cinema score like audience exit polling. I think it was like a d I could see this going similar route, like big opening weekend and word of mouth, kind of Peter's off, but I think for those in the sort of with the propensity for sort of Ardy horror than the prestige Hora world. We live in now this one onto deliver it uniforms, really been making prestige horror like obviously that term exist lump places. Jordan feels like a big part of it by thinking of predatory and the witch, and, you know, movies that are truly weird already horror movies, like hereditary made forty four million domestic box office, which made twenty five which is. A lot. We're movie whose would style like to live deliciously talking. It's impressive. How much they've gotten people to embrace really weird stuff. Yeah. And I would say this, you know about about midsummer and also the filmmaker behind the witch Robert Eggers. His second film, was the lighthouse which we talked about Hugh on the podcasts out of Cayenne, which is super weird, you know, narrow aspect ratio shot in black and white with old timey dialogue. And this is our yester- kind of doubling down on the themes of ready, Terry, and going more esoteric and weird or, and I really liked that trajectory that these are not guys who quote unquote sold out and went for the big budget thing. There's nothing wrong with that. I mean, if you wanna make money and have a bigger impact in terms of, you know, reach that's fine. If you want to do a big budget movie after independence success, but I liked that they're really that are Esther in midsummer seems really committed to his artistry. And I, I hate to be hyperbolic. Well, no, I don't I love to be, but. You watching the film is not even thinking about it afterward. I was like this is this is going to be a major filmmaker like he, he is like, you know, has the artistry of Paul Thomas Anderson, or Kubrick. I mean, he really has such a command of kind of cinematic language. I mean, not everything in the movie works. It's really long. I think it drags a bit. But like it's a big sophomore. Swing you know, in, in the spirit of so many sophomore features and I just think it's really exciting that he's clearly somebody who has a very clear intent with the kind of films, he wants to make. And I hope he sticks to it. I just want to speak up for services go really quickly and say, I also got a hand engraved invitation whatever to this film that they were doing the Alamo here in San Francisco with I guess, like a live screen light simulcast thing QNA. I says the film about a cowboy in the shepherdess sort of a, an independent love story that we'll talk about later. But, but no, the real reason I, I mean, those two screenings red, same time in San Francisco, which Toy Story for and, and miss summer, but the real reason I didn't see midsummer as I was scared to so. Hereditary of hereditary had to watch at home with all the li- like in the middle of the day with all the windows like all the blinds open, which is exactly, I'm sure how are ES are wanted me to watch moment? I was here. Scared to watch it any other way. But do you think like just much the way that there was rumblings of awards campaign behind him, Toni, Collette, Richard UC anything for like forest Pugh? Or Jack Rayner or anyone else who's who's in this film coming out of it? I don't think it's quite that movie. I think you I think it's best hope would be in, you know, this below the line. I think the cinematography is exquisite the scores amazing. I think that for Florence Pugh, who is the star of the film, and we just mentioned that she's in Little Women, this is going to be a huge year for her between, you know, this really interesting genre piece, and then a much more accessible, you know, traditional fall season, Oscar movie she's an actress who's been simmering for a while now. People who saw Lady Macbeth or saw the AMC miniseries a little, drummer girl on. I'm just excited for her to now take that next step in her career because she's such an exciting actress, I think it's public knowledge that she is co starring in the Scarlett Johansson, black widow spinoff, so she she was at the beginning of the screening in Brooklyn. And then, you know, gave us a toast and said enjoy the movie, and then she got on a plane to Budapest where she's filming with Scarlett Johansson, so, you know, it's just interesting, I was watching a young actor on such a meteoric trajectory, and I think this year particular will be the one that people look back on our. That was the, the Florence Pugh really put her Mark on sort of people's consciousness, says, get braid and see midsummer. Even if you're scared beyond funds future, China early. I'm a total chicken. I'm trying to make myself, better about hor-. I went to hereditary for, like, the, the day after it premiered at Sundance and all these tweets were saying it's the scariest movie your level. You'll ever see I survived. I was fine. This is less scary than hereditary think it's more just atmospheric, there's some gore. There's maybe one Joe kinda jump thing. But it's really more just like a, a mood piece. You know, which I hope that doesn't turn people off it. It's really interesting. But, you know, it's not like you know, I, I would have a much harder time at something where it's just like you know, a B movie about ghosts where things are jumping out all the time, like that's much worse for me than, than this is. Yeah, I do think is super cool. I mean, I, I love eight twenty four. I I love that it exists. I feel like they have an optimistic about film that, like not a lot of other people have, and they just are smart about saying, you know. Hey, what do people actually go see in the movies, like atom movie theater anymore? Not that many things. One of them is hard. That's the cheapest thing to do. Why don't we get like the coolest smartest most ambitious people that we can find do stuff, you know, and, and like they are actually making money off of that. But it is interesting to see as, as these autour are like, well, let me edge away from, you know, jump scares into something weird, or like that, that strategy may, you know, it may lead to the next Kubrick, or it may lead to the next, you know, Heaven's Gate will, right. I mean, that's the thing is, like, I think about midsummer that's interesting. And I mean to some degree with the lighthouse, but like this is one step away from just him, not making horror, horror movie, you know. And so it's interesting watching that shift, while he's still clearly obsessed with, like some super creepy, imagery, and certain degree of violence. But I think there's not that they're, you know what the horror shallow but I think there's, like more on his mind, and I'm curious you know what that is. Who are you? We know that somewhere in the world someone downloaded this podcast, but we don't know anything about you, the folks who support this show would love to know just a little bit about who is listening. If you have two minutes it really only takes two minutes. I swear help us make the show and even better experience for you by telling us more about yourself. Just go to listener Q. That's L. I. S. T. N. E R, q dot com forward gold and take the short survey, you can also give us direct feedback on the show, which we would love to hear. Thank you. You'll be entered into a drawing for a one hundred dollar Amazon gift certificate. Two minutes listener, q dot com slash gold. That's listener, q dot com slash gold. We'll make you want to talk about something else. That's scaring the hell out of the people to the point that I have not yet watched her noble because I don't know if I can handle. And Brett can we get like a Geiger monitor clicking? Part. Yeah. No, we're talking about Chernobyl and join on I at least have have watched it. And I think that Jared Harris, you know is is absolutely a late entry into into the ME race. Right. He's so good in everything. He's really good at smoking cigarettes. I don't know if you've noticed this and sort of being like kind of worryingly ill. But, but this, this show it's weird. I was noticing that like civilians, as we sometimes call them on this program on Facebook and stuff where like holy shit Chernobyl's amazing. I was like, wait, regular people. I know who don't watch anything. We talk about are all watching this weird show about nuclear fallout, and yes, they were and it works on a lot of levels, including kind of body horror, including, you know, as a kind of warning about what happens to your society. When people stop telling the truth. Or managing things you know, competently about a lot of stuff and also about about kind of real life heroism. It's really, really good. I thought that the last episode was not as good as the rest of it. You know that kinda happens with these things like how do you tie up a story like that? But anyway, the standout of it is Jared, Harris to me, seems incredibly in the mix for the Emmys. And, and maybe we'll win something put you into what was your take? Yeah, absolutely. And I think Jared hers has so much goodwill built up from like his great work a madman on the crown of the terror, which is something that, like not a lot of people have watched or I'm sure a lot of people have watched but not a consensus have watched on AMC and he's fantastic. And that other is something about the way that Jared Harris look he's such a compelling. I hope I can say this, that sounding at all insulting, because I'm such a huge fan of his, but he also like he has, you know, funky teeth and funky skin. And there's just something about the way that he looks like a real person in this, you know, Soviet nightmare. That is just, you know, so watchable and so compelling. And I am like I watched it all the way through, like I watched it after the fact because I was in a K hole created by game of thrones. And I was like, okay, I gotta catch up on shore. Nobody's everyone's talking about it. And I watched it. I kept waiting for like the thing that would make it popular. And I don't know that I I still don't understand why it was so. Popular, but it's incredibly good at the same time if that makes sense true crime thing, do you think like that? Like people like, you know, watching real horror unfold. I have a theory I mean, people right now are enjoying watching Russia fuck up. Yeah. Probably. So you think you're so hot right now. 'cause you hack our election and have a puppet president in the White House. But member thirty years. Yeah. Definitely a big part of it. Absolutely. And this and the critique of the Soviet approach to misinformation and how you know, and it's sort of like maybe Americans can see it as like a, a well it's a, it's a Coporo, right? Is it was originally a British production, but like maybe the UK and the US can be like see Russia? If you keep letting your government run roughshod on you Chernobyl like finger-wagging figure out like that, I guess, but, like I don't know. It's, it's fascinating leg. But isn't there also an element where it's like, okay America? We're losing country where maybe the government isn't telling the truth all the time. Where's your noble? Like that's the part that I that makes me feel like I don't know if I can handle diving into it while the wildest thing about the first episode. I don't think it's a spoiler. Because it's the first episode. This is not an original thought someone else said this, I'm cribbing I don't remember who but you're expecting it to be like, oh, my God. The horror is going to be this, this event this meltdown, you know, and instead the. Horror, that's all happening in the background. The horror is that no one will acknowledge that it happened for, you know, twelve sort of critical hours. Everybody's just like it's not possible that couldn't have happened. And, and this horrible, scientists in the lab, basically just keep sending more people to do things that are definitely going to kill them to prove that he's right. That the nuclear reactor didn't meltdown, because it couldn't possibly meltdown, because he would never have allowed it to down. And it's just like it's, it's insane, but it's disturbingly familiar. I think for a twenty nineteen American know what's crazy about watching, I've seen I've seen the first couple episodes, and watching back actor I forget his name is amazing because he was just like he's such an asshole. And you're like that's people who are denying climate change right now. You know, like I think that I think that there is a lot pertinence to just current anxieties in a way that I, I watched I to episodes of this HBO show. That's already in the UK called years and years, which is Davies. Fester that I mean interesting, but it's also like it's watching people act out tweets. I'm like this is like too on the nose. It's two pertinent to right now. It's stressful to watch. Whereas noble, has at least at thirty remove where it reminds us of things that are happening right now. But it's not the things that are happening right now. And I think that, that kind of delicate balance is what I can come up with a theory for why this dark literally darkly, filmed thing with British accents, and not a lot of none of big name actors has done so well in the US, you know. Yeah. We should also mention selling Skarsgard incredible as Joanna knows how to pronounce the name shipping. Yeah. Emily Watson is playing this like a composite of like all these other scientists who work in it. And that's like, that's actually one of the more annoying reaction that I seem to travel because like, and I'm sorry, I'm trying to say Shinto Bill the way that they say that the thing you don't hit that are, but and shadow to Paul Ritter, who's, who's the actor who plays the mustache ecoed scientists, who we all like hate so much for this little thing. But, like, what are the word knowing reactions? I've seen is like one okay, one of the pleasures of watching something like Chernobyl is is digging into the true stories, and we have the F do a lot of really fun and great coverage around that. It's like, okay, what's the real story behind this thing, you're watching this based on reality, because obviously, like Craig MS and who, who put this together like is going to take some liberties in order to tell you a compelling narrative, right? He drew from real stories surrounding the event. But also just knitted together in a way that, like people are connected, maybe in a way that they wouldn't have been or something like that, or you someone like Emily Watson who plays the composite a bunch of different scientists so that you actually have like a place for a third female lead in this lake Soviet Russia, sort of a landscape. But the, the fact checking that is about. There's a lot of headlines. I saw that. We're like Chernobyl lied to you like the TV show lie to you. And here's how, and then I would read through, and I'd be like, oh, so they composite it some characters like I don't feel lied to at all by that. There's nothing there's actually nothing. Gotcha about this production, and I feel like that's something you're watching a documentary, you're watching a mini series. It is worth looking after you've watched it. Don't do what I did in watch it while you're watching the final episode. But do read the Masha Gessen piece in the New Yorker because I think she raises some interesting concerns about it, basically, basically just like, along the lines of this whole situation. Was actually far worse than even this show presents it to be. And there are some moments of sort of American style heroism that she's just like not only didn't it happen. It no one involved in this would've, even ever thought to behave in anything like that. And that's how dark the totalitarian world of of Soviet Union was. And I think that's that's you know, something when once you've enjoyed the series, that's interesting stuff to kind of reflect on. But I don't think it takes away from the, the Shopian good. I think that's absolutely. Find say, like okay this is this isn't quite true. This is this is why it's like through an American lens, sort of thing. But not that anything that the series is presenting is disingenuous. I guess a shout out to a couple of other performances than I really wanted to say, a notice is berry Cheonan, ferris ferris, or in this sort of, like, it's almost a standalone episode about these Soviet soldiers who had to go around and, and basically, exterminate the animals who are left behind who were sort of who are contaminated. And I had to be dispatched. And so it's just like this awful vignettes of these soldiers having to kill like dogs basically a watched your noble. It's fun. And then also a Jessie. Buckley who plays the, the wife of this firefighter, Jessie? Buckley is also like foreign pew like Dr Seuss having an incredible year. I saw her in this film at south by wild rose, which she's incredible in, and then she did like alive because she's a beautiful singing voice. She did this like live musical performance, at south by, and I think she's just someone that people are really, really watching, and I'm excited for her. I think she's going to be in the new JAMES BOND film. And I'm excited for her to, like, really, really pop in a huge way. So okay, let's somehow transition from renewable to Toy Story for which is the last thing that's out this week that we wanted to talk about Richard and Joanna. You guys have both seen it. I understand from Twitter that there's a character named fork in it. He told me more about four he so forty was a sport that was near the nuclear reactor internet. Radiated into life. It's a weird backstory that they do in this movie picks way really does. Worke is, I think exist primarily because it's the fourth movie and he's four key. What? No, but, but he's as great weird character. Who those who seen twice or three remember that at the end of that movie, the toys, R left by, you know, grow sort of grown up ish, Andy given to a little girl named Bonnie and do they become her beloved toys, and she goes to kindergarten and creates a toy out of pipe cleaner and a sport. And some clay, it comes alive and Fourchies voice by twenty hill has this amazing kind of Frankenstein, Ian awakening, where he's like, what am I basically? And he's insists that he's trashed she's not a toy and it's really weird and funny. But the way that they work him into the story, which is really more about Woody in peop- in an more familiar characters is really good. I was very skeptical. I was like this seems like they had a perfect ending on the third one. Now they're trying to cash out with this new character in this fourth movie that doesn't need to exist. And I thought it was great. I was really surprised. I don't know how you feel about joining, but I, I. I'm always a little bit less sanguine on Pixar animated films in general than some other people seem to be. But this one got me. Yeah, no, I, I loved it and it's a really interesting narrative for what's going on picks. All right now. So, you know, John Lasseter was supposed to direct this. The now disgraced chief of Pixar, and so a lot of questions around picks are can picks are survive in a post John Lasseter world or like what is, what, what is the point of doing Toy Story of John lesser is not doing it is how I imagine. I don't know the worst Pixar fan to think, but Josh Kelley, does an incredible job taking over directory all duties on this. And I think that I think Toy Story three is a is an incredible film. I think this one is also just like another really really great emotional Pixar installment. And what's been interesting also is that there's been a lot of critique of. Oh, twice or a Pixar had so many sequels coming out like they're just relying on the old hits a month. True like Toy Story four finding Dory, excetera, etc. But what they have coming up going forward or all these originals. And so it just seems like a strong forward momentum for a new era of Pixar to have this, you know, yes, we're doing another toys story, but it is not just a retried. We have something actually intriguing to say the, the stand out of the film is this like weird spark figure, and then we're just going to go forward with that energy. And I think I think it's a real real real triumph for them, especially after last year. The incredible 's to sort of feeling like exactly that, like a retread. We didn't really need, and it didn't win the Oscar even though like earlier in the year eleven people thought it might and stuff like that. And this feels like a good rebound for Pixar. The forecast has a tendency to just I told you this, I think, after I came back from, like a Pixar event months ago that four key just like calling himself trash and fleeing himself into the trash over and over again is such a two thousand nineteen mood. I can't even like it's just a beautiful representation dark because it's like almost suicidal. And it can't happening in the movie, and you're like, well, and I think, in a sense. I think that, you know to if they were going to do this tack on this fourth thing, where it really had felt like a trilogy. And then, you know, like, oh, no just kidding. There's another one which, you know, they just did with men in black, and that certainly didn't work, although this has the same characters. But is they expand the kind of themes of the of the toy store universe, which have always been about, you know, mortality to some extent, but really, you know about watching kids, grow up in this sort of wistful melancholy of that. And this kind of looks a little bit past what sort of being in a child's life might be in what kind of things you might wanna do as an individual, whether you've had kids, and they've grown up or whether you never had kids, and I really appreciated in a sense, you know, the writers of the film extending sort of hand of understanding and comfort in some ways to grownups in the audience who haven't always been able to fully relate to the executive child rearing aspect of, of the Toy Story metaphor. And I think that that's a good. You know, roadmap for if you wanna stay in the same world and develop a property that. You know his already had so many films come before it, you need to sort of figure out what else this world can tell you about being alive. And I think that they figure that out really well in a way that, you know, the incredible to didn't really it was like you said, join our rehash. So let that be less than to anyone considering a fourth movie in a franchise, or a v movie like it needs to say something more but also still speak in the same vernacular as the past films. And I think, you know, Minna black international for example, does exactly not that and on. Here's that's why Toy Story is gonna make you know, forty billion dollars whatever it's going to make. And while we were recording this Pixar just announced that they're releasing another new original next year next June called soul, which will take you on a journey from the streets of New York City to the cosmic realms discover the answers to life, most important questions. So it could be literally anything picks her gets infinitely exit using inside out to a story four existential ISM or nothing. But yeah, so it's, it's that and, and they're doing the film on where they're doing to regional six years. So there's just like getting really in business, which did not work out. Well for them at a couple years ago when they like the good dinosaur seniors something else. So we'll see. We'll see but, but this, but I am sort of optimistic about this. Can I talk about one more thing before we have also up a under embargo is the two thousand eighteen TCI award nominations just came out under embargo as recording and the narrative from those? Nominations is the television critic says he Asian of which I am a proud member. The, the narrative, I think, is there is HBO leads the nominations overall, but pose in Russian doll are the two zero and fleabag are the three series that garnered sort of the most nominations, each and so that's you know, a win for affects win for Netflix and the and a win for Amazon. But what you see is that the most anything is nominated is four and otherwise, you have a huge spread, and that's just like I mean, that's just expected. Right. That's just the, the narrative of two thousand eighteen is there's too much, and it's all good. So here's one nation of peace for like so many things. So you feel like this is a preview of EMMY nominations to come. Maybe I mean, I can't you know it's hard. It's hard to imagine nominations coming out in us. Not like what, what do we think is going to get? An avalanche of awards. I mean I guess other than game yet. Give got one TCI nomination for like a most outstanding program, but like they didn't get anything else. And that's okay because they don't do like directing, and that sort of stuff. But that's a very interesting question too is, is is there a divide between critics who say okay, this game of thrones season was not their best? Right. Versus EMMY voters who presumably will say, all right. We gotta like pile the last, you know, forty seven awards on the wagon before it leaves town. We assume they're going to do that. It's possible that EMMY voters were like not that thrilled with the final season but that would be shot. I think I think it's a very different voting body. I think they're gonna let that show pied piper, all the Mexico into a cave, or whatever they're like, well, you know, that's why it's fun that they're critics awards like the TCI's were because you can see another side of things you know. And I would love it if a show like post, which just got renewed for third season like made us, huge splash at the EMMY, and I don't know that it will. But it'd be nice if fleabag one forty seven. Well, because it certainly support. I was I was on in province town of the province town film festival last weekend, which was a great time. Great festival talking to people at t the dual not dance at four PM. And I said to a group of I dunno maybe seven people that I hadn't seen fleabag season two in everyone's head whipped around, and they were like what? Watch it right now. I know it's a beautiful sunny day. But go back like that show has support. So, yeah, it would be fun if the Emmys reflected that let me, let me know one more thing about the TC nominations, that they don't do gendered acting categories. Right. So there's individual achievement in drama individual achievement comedy and those are the two like acting categories. So and there's only two men nominated overall and I should say, the TC in general, I think is a like tense towards female membership. Billy porter propose and Bill Hader for berry. That's it. So all acting or just comedy all acting jeez. Yeah. So, you know, so you got like Jodi Comber, Michelle Williams and Pamela, Adlon. Julia Louis Dreyfuss an attache Leona, Catherine O'Hara, Phoebe, Waller bridge and Amy Adams, Patricia Arquette, and Christine Bransky, and who could argue with those. Kick out an anchor. Exactly. So there you go. And now as promised we're going to share the interview that Laura Bradley did with Marisa Tomei who played Edith. Bunker in the live revival of all in the family alongside Woody Harrelson as Archie bunker. It was a pretty special event. And she really did a lot of work to kind of connect to this character, who is such a lynchpin of a really, really important sitcom and kind of talked about the ways that maybe on the family, you'd think wouldn't have Asia's, well, and how they managed to bring it to life anyway. It's a it's really fascinating conversation. So let's listen to it. I'm here with Marisa Tomei to talk about the revival. The live revival of Norman Lear 's all in the family, and the jeffersons Marissa's starred in the all in the family revival as Edith bunker, originally, played by Jean Stapleton. The first thing I'm wondering is just was Jean Stapleton, an influential figure for you growing up or in your early days as a performer, you just captured her energy as Edith, so well. Well, who doesn't love Jean Stapleton, the she's so deeply deeply beloved and when I was little watching on the family, I didn't really relate to Edith. I was looking at Gloria. Noah's looking at her hair, and get her shoes, who was coming to the door. And I wasn't as aware of the fabric of the family dynamics as much as the events, and, oh, they were going to do a flashback to win glory got married. So I was looking at different things. But yes, she's someone who is an incredible performer in many in a theater actress as well. And in many mediums has done incredible work. So once I revisited this, and, and we started talking about Edith. I was all over again blown away by all her choices and how she constructed this along with the writers. She was such a crucial part in the show just sort of as its heart and soul. In a way. I'm wondering how do you prepare to take on that role and to become Jean Stapleton, and by extension Edith? Well, I had a little talk with, gene. Above. And then I didn't really want to look at her, or kind of commune with her until I felt solid that I understood Edith, even though she's the conduit for Edith, and she created Edith, along with the writers. It's an a show that long we know that they're doing that hand in hand. So, Well, I, I asked what what's the mandate? What are we doing here? Is this an Amodu is it more of an SNL impersonation kind of situation? What, what's the endgame to are we because I thought it was just a one night only thing. Then at one point, it seemed like maybe there was going to be are we angling to revive the whole show? I wasn't really sure there are a lot of rumors going around. So I spoke to brand whose Norman's Leers producer and asked him and really. He came back saying Norman says the actors should really as if they got this script in, and it had ever been cast before. What would you do with it? I found that really daunting was not exactly what I wanted to. I imagine that would be intimidating to sort of taking on a role in being told now just treat it like a new script when somebody else did this role for like you said so long. How do you think through doing that? But then also keeping it in at least the spirit that she curse because we love that spirit. And that's why we want to see it again. We want to be with those characters as they were created. And also listen to them anew in this time. So that was exactly the question. How, how do we do that? And I think each of us as performers answered that for ourselves differently because Norman after he left us with that there wasn't anything else to the cause Jimmy Burrows came on the week that we, we only had, we rehearsed for five days and he was there for that week. But he wasn't available before. And I start. Did before because I was so freaked out that I had committed. Project. And as you we were talking earlier how, how much we love this show, and how much it meant to us growing up, and what a national treasure Norman Lear is, and all of those things that are that are fill our hearts with so much love that, that was why I had to say. Yes, even though I thought, as soon as I said, yes, I thought, what have I done? But diving back into it. I reached out to Woody Harrelson to ask him or you let's figure this out together because, you know, that's kind of what we're doing here. So I, I asked what he and he said, hey, I'm working on the accent. We did this via text. And then we didn't that was really it's I didn't really know if he was going to go full Archie what he was going to do with his hair or his body. And those were questions that I'll definitely had to answer for myself with the incredible team that they had assembled. So one thing that I asked for early on was a singing coach. And, and a wig. So I thought I just need to have those in a contract, so that I know that I have that, that those will be there and solid request. So that created what Norman wanted which was go back to it? And what would the history of these characters really big and he had put them in put it in there. So that was some of the beginning, the beginning of it, but then you have to go back to Edith herself, and what, what gene was doing because he because we want, gene, we want, we want the essence of it has to be. That's what we love and the lines, the intonation, which I tried not to do exactly. But just to get get the spirit of what was behind it, and basically her spirit, which was such a beautiful, beautiful place to be is that she is non-judgmental. She doesn't lie and her, her credo is everybody is somebody when you love them. So I just put myself into this stream of love that gene created via Edith. And try to see everything everything through her is because it's hard to think about what Archie sets to her, sometimes now as very hard women and men looking at it now. House is gonna Arn that is actually a thing. I was wondering it's just to me from the outside the hardest thing about this role and cap would be capturing Edith's dignity. Archie was always like we said, so harsh with her. But the cleverness of the writing was that she would always drop these great kind of innocence zingers that gave her a power of her own. I'm wondering whether that was a concern for you. Sort of making sure that she didn't come across as a doormat and sort of bringing that strength that she had out. Yeah. Yes. But not it was a concern. But nothing I could do consciously to. Oh, we're going to change this, so that it reads stronger. And of course, we weren't going to change the lines. So, but I think that what I was just talking about about the power of that, though, the enormous heart that she has is the strength. So once that's aligned it just naturally has its own power. When you were asking me about how did I relate to Edith? I actually it took quite a few beats, and then I thought, oh, my Gracie Allen Gracie because I could relate more to Gracie Allen initially because probably because of her, maybe her glamour, or the relationship that, that she has has with her husband with different. So it was kind of a way in that I realized, oh, there's a, there's a lo-, this Edith is in a long line of hilarious. Ding bats, that's, but that also certain brilliant to them. How do you work to build report with what he Harrelson so quickly? It was striking how transport of it was immediately to watch you two singing behind the piano, and that seems to me like something that would be very difficult to achieve with five days to prepare Lee. That, that was one of the first questions I asked. Are we doing the song? Half hoping and have fearing. Right. And it was built into the schedule and then maybe by day two or three Jimmy boroughs, thought, no, let's do the song live as well. That just sent the next level of pressure to. Adrenaline through my body. I had had a really bad experience in high school where it was supposed to sing a song from Pippen, and I got laryngitis, so I always have felt I can't sing in. Doc to that level. Even though the song is you have so much leeway. All right. Gene was a, a really great singer, which was another really interesting thing, because in the, when you see the shows she talks about K Kaiser and Deanna. Durbin and when you look at those performers. Oh, that's the vein of this kind of singing, she's trying to emulate. So I could really get to the root of what that was, and the joy of how she aspired to, to be them in her in her little inner own little girl, fantasies, and so over the course of the next three days, Jimmy boroughs would say, I'm just gonna ask you every day and we can just practice every day. And hopefully when it's time to do it, he'll do it. And, and what he was very encouraging what he has. He has a really good voice, and we did it the night before with an audience, so that we could so on Tuesday night, we did at taped in case anything should happen to the live show, they'd have something to put up and it also gave us a chance to practice with an audience. So that day I felt safe because it was taped to do it, and that really broke the ice for me. And I thought, okay, we'll take just take another risk. It's, it's fun. Where there any aspects of doing this live on that night that you just hadn't expected? Was there anything just different about it from what you've thought it would be? Well, it was different from the taped show for sure. Because I think the audience was also very heightened their adrenaline was in it with us on the Wednesday night. So the laughs were kind of heartier or more prolonged, or, or more, there was more surprise and delight. And then just the sheer joy of everyone revisiting this beloved show together. There was a lot of emotion, I would love to do this every week. It was just it was so exciting, and so terrifying. Such an incredible format because you're it's like it's like a play, but it's short. And but everyone gets to see it. And, and there's no. You've done it. It's not a in terms of like actual work hours and reds. That makes sense. I feel like I would kick myself if I didn't ask just what was it like working on this with Norman Lear? Oh my gosh. Well, he is the fountain of depth and humor and vision that, that we know him to be, and he's, he's very easy going with it, but he came to every day there would, whether it was a run through or just a short rehearsal. He was there to see at least the run through give feedback whether he he didn't give really directly to us. They give it through Jimmy, but his eyes were on it, and the, the grace that he carried because it was. It's intimidating. And he just was there to, to keep an eye on, on these beloved characters the pacing and you know how it was all coming together. But also he was a great support. He he believed he believed in, in us. And so there wasn't a it wasn't a tense atmosphere at all. It was very well. Welcome ING, the he called me. That's how I got involved. Actually, he called me on. I don't know how he got his number. I Norman Lear. He has. Yeah. Yeah. He said, we met thirty years ago, I told you, I'd call you thirty years ago. I call you now. Did you remember? Oh, yeah. I do. That's what was amazing about it. That what is an actual encounter. We had had that he said he'd call. You. I, imagine that is the thing that you remember forever until you get the kind of feel like I was discovered by him through this in a way. And what's it been like just to see the responses to it? There was so much. I mean, joy, and particularly, I think for your performance in the way that you captured that character, the joy, we all felt that joy throughout the whole as soon as I stepped on the set. I cried I I'm sure every one of those performers did as well. It just you can't believe it's also so trippy he think you're going through the TV and this fantasy that, like who in their wildest dreams. With think I'm, I'm going to be part of all in the family in stand on that set in and say any of those, I it's just it's just one of life surprises. I, I was I was. I was feeling like what's what's going on? What's what is there? And then life just kind of brought this incredible surprise in. And so there there was that joy. And also the conversation around how how topical the episodes are all the right? How solid the writing is how the writing more than holds up is just is so, so robust order line eerie. We're fine here it can can be sad. If you think about it a lot, right? But that the country had lived through, you know, nineteen sixty eight at that time and th-, and those that family was processing, all those changes, and just like we're processing so many changes in the country. Now an over the years and even recently, you help taken on just such a wide variety of roles in the sense of you've been in the sitcom revival. You were in a vendor's endgame, very big franchise film, and obviously Spiderman universe. You had a cameo in Handmaid's tale relatively recently last season. And it just strikes me how again, varied these roles are wondering what kinds of parts, are you seeking out right now? Is there a characteristic that you look for part of its what comes along? And, and then, of course who else is involved, and I'm excited that this is a bit of a comedy cycle. So, you know, it's wonderful when it has. Relevance to either to my personal world or to, to the world, at large, which obviously all in the family was something that was was part of it. So like relating almost thematically in a certain ways is always something. I actually look for or just that it resonates that way. And I do have one question about avengers endgame. I was reading that the cast for the funeral scene toward the end had been told that it was a wedding that they were filming. Yeah. I was wondering what were you told that? Did you go in that day expecting to shoot a wedding? Yes, we, we were told that it was. But, you know, when the costume designer is putting you in black. Like it might not happy about this. So you did you would sort of picked up that something might be. Yeah. It was in the either. I think we're about ready to sign off. But is there anything that I haven't asked you about that you'd like to talk about? Oh, well, when you had asked me earlier about gene and Edith. One of the most wonderful discoveries was to see the depth and breadth of her craft because I, we were looking at, for example, the costumes, and she wore a lot of she wore green, and she wore like a lavender color, and sometimes she wore quarrel. But of course, it's like that's what maybe suited, gene, and maybe suited her skin tone, and maybe that was just what was around at that time. But then when I got to look at the costumes with Kerry, our costume designer we tried on a bunch of things things that I thought, well, maybe this would be a better color for me. Or maybe this would be more comedic or no? Gene, had figured it out that the blues and the greens, looked perfect with that kind of, and that kind of pattern on that set. So was this. Full cycle of understanding o that, that a lot of thought went into this and this choice, and this choice and after going through that long process of understanding, Edith, the character. And some of genes choices on that final day is when I went back to Jeanne, 'cause I said, I'm going to not talk to you for a while and not think about you. And that's when I lit a candle to her and had a conversation with her. I'm sorry, good, emotional, and thanked her because I really understood that not only what she did as a as a thespian, but also where her heart was because a lot of her is in that. I mean, your connection is so evident and it really came through. So thank you, again, so much Tang that eating with me. That does it for this week's little gold man. Always listening and for finding us and telling other people about us, and leaving us reviews, you can find us all at Vanity Fair dot com. And we're all at little Goldman on Twitter and run our own, I met. Katie rich Mike, Mike underscore, HOGAN, and Richard at happy birthday, Katie. Hey. I can't believe you change your Twitter handle that Richard. That was. Worth it and Joanna terror. This episode was edited and produced by Brett Fuchs and this week's award for the best description of the NBA finals goes to my Cogan. There's some really nice baskets. Panoply.