Taking Collective Responsibility for Fixing Climate Change
Hi I'm Elise loon co host with Gwyneth of the podcast. Today's guest is Tatiana Schlossberg. Tatyana is the seventh gas in our special series called women on top which is all made possible by our friends at Banana Republic The most interesting businesses are born out of curiosity. This is the space that went was in when she started goop. It's also the space from which Banana Republic was founded back in nineteen seventy eight by to California creatives with adventurous spirits. Laos ball partnered with the team at Banana Republic to celebrate curiosity by talking with women who are redefining. What it means to be powerful and brave and we're very excited to be back for a second series. I hope you love listening to these conversations as much as I love having them and I know you'll be deeply inspired by these women so please keep listening and keep shopping with our friends at Banana Republic to see our favorites from their spring collection had two banana republic dot com slash goop. Don't hold anything tightly. Just wish for wine. It let it come from the intention of real truth for you and then let it go. The Mayo soul is like it's unbound. It's limitless but we will use words to limit ourselves when people stop believing that. Somebody's got your back or Superman's coming. We turn to ourselves and that's where you become. Empowered courageous participation attracts positive things. I'm going paltrow. This is the group podcast bringing together thought leaders culture changers creatives founders and CEOS scientists doctors healers and seekers here to start conversations because simply asking questions and listening has the power to change the way we see. The world is no exception a letter. Leesville you win on her extraordinary guest all right over to a lease Tatiana. Schlossberg is the author of inconspicuous consumption and a journalist who writes about climate change and the environment. She has contributed to the New York Times and worked on the Metro Desk Tatiana and I sat down at our last in. Goupil talk about how we are all collectively responsible for building a better world. She teaches us what we can do. Now to create bigger change and both small and significant ways will learn just how much water goes into making one pair of jeans and how we can change this and the people who already are Tatiana understands that environmental issues do feel overwhelming. But the best thing we can do is to educate ourselves and take action. And when we do this. We realized that the issue of climate change is an enormous opportunity to fix the world. We live in today. We often talk about climate. Change as if it's a big loss and sacrifice and it is those things but it also is an enormous opportunity to kind of fix a lot of these systems that have perpetuated injustice in our societies. Let's cut to our chat with Tachi on Schlossberg. I know within your book. You talk about how. There's the onus somehow has become on us as individuals to reduce our carbon footprint because corporations and certainly our government right now and the globe isn't doing its part which isn't appropriate. I think we all feel like what can we possibly do in later? This imminent threat. So can you sort of talk through on a political level obviously voting but like what what you think we need to do is consumers to get companies more engaged. Yeah you know. I think that when we talk about climate change carbon footprints. I think that the narrative of personal responsibility on this topic has been really destructive. Because it's made us look inward at ourselves and what we're doing instead of focusing on the larger systemic and collective problems are issues that are really causing this problem and I think it also makes it seem like you know if we'd all just brought our own grocery bags to the store twenty years ago we wouldn't be dealing with this but most importantly I think it's let those who are actually responsible off the hook and that's you know fossil fuel companies and their lobbyists and the politicians who take money from them and corporation. They're they're guilty as well so I think it's it can be really difficult and I understand the impulse to feel guilty about the things that we do by and I'm not saying you shouldn't feel guilty is therefore you should go do whatever you want but you know. I think we don't need to feel individuals guilty for climate change but we need to feel collectively responsible for building a better world and for fixing these problems and the way that we do that is by engaging in collective action so for the most part that the most effective way to do that are voting as you mentioned and getting involved in the political process but also we have a lot of power as consumers that I think we have kind of abdicated. So you don't have to support a company that isn't at the very least being transparent about what its practices are and then encouraging them to do better and the same thing goes you know making sure that they follow through on the promises that they're making that those promises are legitimate and a lot of companies are realizing that this is a really important issue to a lot of people and they really need to do more and they are responsive to the bad. Pr that comes from having a negative climate or environmental impact. So we can't shop our way out of this problem but we can't shop better and I I think in general. It's not you know we've put so much pressure on the consumer to make the sustainable choice when usually we don't have that information and instead it should really be on the companies to do a better job whether that's limiting the amount of water and resources that they use or decrease in their carbon footprint or any of the the many many things that most companies can do to not have as big of an impact as they do. We can go through different categories but maybe it makes sense to start with fashion because I think we all probably that most of the people in this room tend to buy fewer things that are well-made that they can continue to wear and that's sort of how we used to dress right like you would have things for three years four years and that is statistically just like dropped because of fast fashion and this idea right that we should have whatever we want and as much as we want all the time. All the time I was watching one of those makeover shows and I was shocked because at the end this they threw away all of this women's clothing and bought her a new wardrobe and she had they gave her. It was five thousand dollars worth of clothing. Which is a lot of money right? And they provided her with racks of clothing. It was like forty pairs of new shoes and three racks of clothing for five thousand dollars and it was like this is kind of really fucked up lake. You could buy like a wardrobe of Nice well-made things right without money you don't need this much stuff right but we've all been sort of trained to consume consume consume. Yeah I think that's you know. In general that's how we measure success is in growth and the reason that things are cheap whether it's fast fashion for the most part but also a lot of the things that we buy. I mean proportionately. We spend less money on clothes and we used to because it's a lot cheaper to manufacturer close mainly because they're manufactured in places like China or increasingly Vietnam where they have much lax much more lax environmental standards as well as Labor standards and wages. And things like that. But you know the reason that it's cheaper to produce something in those places because no one actually is paying for the cost of producing them and the cost of producing these things should contain the waste. And whether that's or the problems that are caused whether that's ocean acidification or sulfur dioxide pollution in port cities or water pollution in the towns. Where all these factors are. I mean those things should be factored into the cost of what of what we buy. Because that's part of the cost of making them so so if that happens I think hopefully it would not only encourage better practices but it would also make people feel that they couldn't afford as many things as as we all want all the time. And there's you know amazing statistic that the average item of clothing is worn seven times and then thrown away and in the US. We donate or recycle. Only fifteen percent of our clothing and Aso eighty-five percent is landfilled or incinerated. And if it's landfilled if it's biodegradable material that's can have a lot of methane emissions but if it's synthetic material can leach apostasy and other toxins into the soil or the groundwater in addition to just being wasteful of all the resources and Labor that were taken to make those things right and speaking of corporations I know with the you talk about this but the and we found this cube in the process of making our own label and trying to drive it as sustainably as possible that there's an absence of Information. It's a very opaque industry and that a lot of manufacturers haven't been called to the mat to sort of explain exactly what's going on and so a few companies are something for you mentioned Levi's here in San Francisco being very clear about the amount of water that's required to create the Denim and how they've brought that drastically down there. Trainings Industry Right. Yes therefore sections in the book so the Internet and technology food fashion and fuel so in the fashion section. I write about Denim which is mainly away to write about cotton but to grow a kilogram of cotton so about two pounds us on average twenty five hundred gallons of water to turn that into a pair of jeans could use up two additional an additional two thousand nine hundred gallons of water so it really is like an insane amount of water especially when cotton is often grown in places that are water stressed. You know dry to begin with but so Levi's has kind of instituted this water less campaign where they are trying to manufacture their denim using less water. And I think it's not. All of their genes are not made with that technique but a lot of them are. I think they're trying to get to eighty percent by next year and then they are giving away those methods to the rest of the industry which I think is really important because I mean everybody needs to do better and it shouldn't be up to the consumer you know if you're standing trying to decide between two pairs of jeans you probably don't need you know which one was made with the least amount of water it should be on the companies to use as little water as possible and you know. There are some factories and suppliers. That do that. But they're kind of few and far between. Yeah but no. I think it's sort of incumbent on us to ask and apply that pressure and shoe indicate that were curious and asking and then I think that's how markets are to move in the absence of government leadership I think businesses are stepping in to take on right mantle and that's ultimately what we're part of what we're going to need right. Yeah and I think it's interesting that you guys found the same thing that I found which is that. There's no transparency in the supply chain which allows the companies that we think of as like making our clothes really. Don't actually make the materials that that we end up wearing. They kind of put them all together for the most part so the fact that there is no transparency allows them to get away with a lot and allows them to kind of feel unaccountable. And we haven't asked them to be accountable but we do have that power to ask as you're saying and if that's not coming from government regulation or kind of industry agreements than than it does have to come from from us and from consumer pressure. We'll get back to Tatyana and just a second You've probably heard me mentioned that. Curiosity is my favorite state of being. I try to carry that attitude with me every day. And it's certainly easier to do it. That a place like goop that places. Such a premium value on being curious and feeling empower to explore and ask questions. Banana Republic is another company that values curiosity their founding story starts with a California couple who were looking for an adventure. Fun Fact Banana Republic began as a safari inspired clothing company and today the inspiration for their clothing is designed for life in motion or as they put it living a life of possibilities with no boundaries. This can be seen banana. Republics latest spring collection a modern versatile take on work where to see our favorites from the collection had two banana republic dot com slash goop working out and more specifically. Doing Yoga helps me get out of my mind and into my body. I spend a lot of time in my mind. And Yoga is a form of release for me. I love it but the usual barriers can keep me from staying in a regular routine bulldog. Yoga online removes those hurdles and makes it very easy and fun. 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So they're bringing the experience to your living room some levity to try bulldog yoga for yourself head to bulldog online dot com use. Promo Code goop sixty to extend your free trial from thirty days to sixty days. That's BULLDOG ONLINE DOT COM and use. Code Goup six zero after your retrial. It's just twelve ninety nine per month and you can cancel anytime back to my chat with Tana and speaking of Supply Chain Accountability that the chapter on Technology was fascinating. Not only because of the attention of brings to rare metals which are typically mind and places like the Congo but also that so many like I was floored. I hope some all of you don't necessarily work in Silicon Valley comedies. Superfund sites are money. Three twenty three superfund site. So yeah it's it's the most polluted county by number of superfund sites. It's not the most polluted in terms of the amount of pollutants. But there are. I think it's amazing for me to learn that there was that pollution at all. Because I don't really think of Silicon Valley is like an industry or manufacturing area. But that's what it was for a really long time. And only more recently is kind of more software and this sort of intangible internet stuff but producing chips and semiconductors and all the different parts of our computers as an incredibly chemically intensive process and requires lots of precious materials. And we don't currently I mean the there are a lot of reasons why you know they're not kind of recycled effectively. But one of the reasons is that the company's kind of factor planned obsolescence into their business model so that we always feel like we have to buy the new thing and then we don't recycle them or they don't reincorporate those things into their supply chain and all of the stuff that's no other it's in the batteries or the computers you know is mind all over the world with huge environmental impact and also you know health problems for the for the people who work in the minds or live around them as well and there. I believe I don't WanNa you can hopefully crack me. But in the Congo there was sort of this recognition of all the human rights abuses. That were happening because of the mining and there were all these. It was like essentially blood diamonds but happening with with cobalt for like Lithium Ion batteries. Which are the batteries that we all have our phones and but also an electric cars and kind of all of our devices. Yeah are you know. But I don't know it's not perfect but the tech industry did sort of move to try to really clean up all those the smelters and the mining operations and to ensure at least things were i. Guess Investigations found that some cobalt from certain minds or mining companies. That use child. Labor was getting into like apple supply chain and they've now cleaned that up but that was kind of the the biggest piece of it. But you know I mean. That's one of the things that I think. Obviously moving to electrification and transportation is really important for lots of reasons mainly for green reducing greenhouse gas emissions. But we don't often talk about what the cost of that is and the cost of that is more if we're not. Recycling is more cobalt mining and lithium mining and graphite mining. All of which happened in other parts of the world with often little or no environmental standards. I know it's overwhelming. I think I'm sure many of you guys will agree. But everything has an impact and everything has a price and everything has a cost. And there's a ripple effect whether it's our words or what we're buying and it's incredibly intense that think about unraveling it to the point where you know and I think as women we liked we tend to be overly responsible and so it becomes overwhelming. Where do you think that people should start? Well you know I. It is really overwhelming. And you know as somebody who reads about climate change all day every day it is really really overwhelming and depressing and things like that. The conversation that we're having about like these materials are mind but we need them for electrification which is essential to fighting climate. Change like those trade offs are really important and important to discuss and it shouldn't be on us to figure out how that happens and that's really the kind of point that I'm trying to make is that this requires like different like a different system or different structures to how these industries work. But I think for me you know before I started writing about climate change the environment. I never wanted to read about it because it just made me feel so anxious and like it was so this problem was so big and so inevitable and what could I possibly do about it. But I found that actually through my reporting and writing this book and by learning more than I've felt less anxious and that's not because the problem became less serious or less scary but that I felt like a much more informed and responsible citizen because I could evaluate when what like what the green new deal actually means or when. Somebody's putting forward a climate policy. Like is that what actually needs to happen. And and the same thing is true for companies like are they greenwashing or is that legitimate or is that just the beginning and I think you know for all of us. I hope we really do need to educate ourselves because this is not the kind of these kinds of changes. Don't just happen. You know. We have to make them happen and that it's really hard if not impossible to solve a problem if you don't understand what the problem is on so I think you know. Learning more is really the place to start. And then you know asking some of these questions that we're talking about of the companies or the where you guys are buying things or who you're buying them from and politicians you're voting for kind of getting engaged at the local level because especially right given that in Washington things are moving if not nowhere in the wrong direction. There is a lot of change that's happening at the city level and state level. And that's those are really important places for all of us to be involved because I think we often think like whatever happens in the state legislature like. That doesn't have a lot to do with me. But that has more to do with you than a lot of federal law and it also has more to do with climate change. And then you think whether it's where your electricity is coming from or what. The city is doing to plan for mass transit and all these different things in local water supplies and toxic bloom right right and I love your book too because I feel like there are so many Jews. Even within the food food chapter there were so many surprises like essentially this idea that we should eat local and of course that's great support your local farmers. Ncsa's but at the same time that there's been a little bit too much emphasis put on that late of climate change that the doesn't contribute that much to ship food right. Yeah it's a baseball complicated. So basically I felt like I wanted to. I had heard a lot about like eating locally in how we were all supposed to do that. And I should feel bad for not doing it all the time but so I wanted to find out if that was actually really true in terms of its climate benefits and basically what I found out was. Farming is so incredibly energy intensive from things like fertilizer production and pesticide production and the energy required to harvest. Something that transportation is actually a really really small part of that. So eating locally in terms of a carbon emissions or greenhouse gas emissions doesn't really do that much like you have to be really really good at eating locally to make as much of a difference as shifting from red meat to vegetables like one day a week but to say that kind of ignores all the rest of the problems which is that. Somehow it's become cheaper and more efficient to grow food in South America and ship it to New York and the the fact that we've all come to expect that we can eat berries in the winter and whatever we want at what particular time and so eating. Local has a lot of benefits apart from that. Which are you're supporting a person for the most part? Who is most likely Whether or not they're certified organic is probably putting in place. Sustainable are progressive practices. Because it's what makes sense for them and you know over the long term like it's cheaper to have better soil health and better water quality and so that's what they'll do. It's really hard to evaluate. You know people always ask me like well. What better like eating local or eating organic. And how much time do you have so really it? Just you know there's so many trade offs in there so many misaligned incentives in all these different areas and so it is really hard to give a straight answer. And that's again why I think it's not fair to put all that pressure on the consumer to make a sustainable choice because like I know that because I wrote this book but if you're just going to the grocery store like you don't have that information and so that's why these systems need to be changed such that were not. We don't have such a chemically and fertilizer intensive agricultural process. That means that it's uses less energy to ship food from New Zealander wherever and do you think that that needs to come from a carbon tax? Is that an ideal scenario and do you think? I want to believe I read. I don't know if you guys have read David. Wallace Wells' book as well. But if you don't want to sleep you read his book terrifying. But he makes the argument that ultimately we and again the more impoverished parts of our world are the ones who are getting destroyed first by climate change which is another great injustice. But that I live in La and your family was evacuated during the fires. I was evacuated and it's expensive right. Like at a certain point we will not be able to sustain all of these environmental disasters which are coming with greater and greater frequency. So do you think that that will force government to act or or is it going to be a carbon tax sort of created by businesses? It's potentially passed on to us but allows us to make good choices cloth diapers or not cloth diaper like those are the plaguing you know. I think that a carbon tax is probably where the starts on the policy level and it would kind of make the incentives align more because it would produce a lot of carbon emissions to ship something from China to the. Us You would do that less because it wouldn't be cost effective anymore and things like that but there are a lot of things that doesn't address people often talk about like. Oh transforming the electricity grid or electrifying transportation and will all be so expensive. We can't afford that but the cost of climate change will be much much more because we'll have to pay for all the disasters as you're talking about but also we'll have to pay to rebuild and it's much harder to do those things you know when the disasters have already happened. Rather than to kind of plan to mitigate against some of the things that will face. But I think it's really important as you mentioned that around the world. Those who are at least responsible for creating this problem are those who will be the most affected and disproportionately. That's women all over the world but it's particularly poor black Brown and indigenous women in the Global South and those are the people who have already been living with this problem for decades. But it's also those people who people often ask me like well. What's the point if we can't you know like if it's that bad? Why should we do anything? Or what can we even do? And why bother and we should bother because of them because this is already killing and hurting people all over the world and I think you know fundamentally what is motivating for me to keep writing about. This topic is that climate change is a justice issue fundamentally you know it arises out of inequality and it exacerbates inequality wherever it is. And I think that's kind of true in terms of the effects of climate change but also in the things that that created so basically we still get about a quarter of `electricity in the US from coal and burning coal for electric produces coal ash. Which is kind of like that contains lead mercury arsenic cadmium selenium kind of all kinds of heavy metals that are toxic to human health and we mostly store next to power plants. Often like in. Rivers are dammed sections of Rivers Lakes. Where can leak into the sounds like a great idea where it can save into the groundwater or stored in landfills it can kind of blow away and it causes all kinds of health problems cancer and lung disease and all these sorts of things and in two thousand eight? There was a damn kind of holding back this toxic slurry collapse in Tennessee. Release billions of billions of gallons of the stuff into a river buried three hundred acres of land the waste to clean it up was carted away to a landfill outside a predominantly black community in Alabama. The workers you cleaned it up weren't given any protective equipment and dozens of people died. Two hundred people were made sick and they recently won a lawsuit against the contractor. So it's one of the worst environmental disasters in American history. It happened in two thousand eight. I never heard about it. I never heard of it before. I became a climate and environment reporter. I never heard of coal ash at all. And that's part of the problem because it's really a luxury to not have to know what that is and there are millions of Americans who live with every day who are disproportionately communities of color low income communities living in rural areas. And you know if I'm using electricity in a particular way that can burns more coal. Those are the people who are going to suffer from that and so I think a society that allows people to be disproportionately affected by something like that because of their race or their income or where they live is a that is less free and less just for all of us and so preventing burning. Fossil fuels means that people don't have to live with that kind of pollution and we often talk about climate change as if it's a big loss in sacrifice and it is those things but it also has an enormous opportunity to kind of fix a lot of these systems that have perpetuated injustice in our societies and those changes come from coal not being burned but also the government regulating the disposal of that particular material and getting rid of the federal regulations on coal ash. Which only went into effect the first ones ever in two thousand fifteen was the first thing that the current EPA administrator did when he got into office so these regulations and and kind of what the EPA does really does matter to all of us. So I think that's for me. What makes me WANNA keep writing about this and keep them make sure that people understand? Yeah no it's a major social justice issue and it was you know being in this recent evacuation in Los Angeles in the fires. Were right above our house and FDA was amazing and saved a lot of homes and nobody died and a lot of people reach out after. And we're like I'm so sorry and I was like you know what like don't I'm fine like I'm good. I'm in a five star hotel with my kids on the beach watching this incredible reaction to no one died two miracle but this is like affluent Los Angeles right like this is not the response and Syria. This is not the response for all of the people who are already climate refugees. They're not refugee ing at the Beverly Hills Hotel. He's not where I was but I think it's incumbent on all of us who you know. Have all of this the privilege to go to those places to make sure that we're not just drowning. Literally of these people right. One just goes to show that no matter who you are. This problem is going to affect everybody. But you know how we make plans for those things and make sure that people who don't have money can also be protected you know that's really important and policy is kind of we think about it in an abstract way but policy is kind of how we determine who has power and who doesn't and so we need to have policies that think about everybody and don't just think about the people who can already afford to protect themselves. Yeah we'll get back to Tatiana and just a second Women and moms especially you can probably relate but lately I am spending less and less time shopping for clothing stores. I'd rather do it online or not at all. But every now. And then it's really nice to freshen up your wardrobe especially when it doesn't require you to spend all day shopping mall. Lotto is a fashion rental service. That makes it easy and convenient to freshen up your wardrobe regularly for a flat monthly fee. Their mission is to make bashing accessible to every woman every day. 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This may make me unpopular but learning about the effects of Kashmir really surprising to him So can I and chief Kashmir sheep Kashmir has led to the you can go for it Okay Stat. Ready so cheap. Cashmere has meant that. There's a huge growth in consumer demand which has led to along with a few other things the explosion of the goat population in Mongolia and parts of China so like nine hundred ninety there around six million goats and it actually is very difficult to get a precise estimate of the population in Mongolia. But I tried and in two thousand and four there were around twenty four million goats so it's really grown enormously and there it's now represents like sixty percent of the livestock there so the goats when the it's very kind of fragile ecosystem this high mountain prairie and when they graze the grass they pull it up by the roots so it kind of destroys the whole plant which destabilizes the soil and then they have these really sharp of that like no matter what source you're reading are described as Stiletto. But they still they break up the soil even further and then it kind of it can blow across the plains and add to this already naturally-occurring process of desertification so expanding the desert and in addition to that climate change is happening in Mongolia in this part of China at a faster rate than much of the rest of the world so the average surface temperature of the earth has warmed by about one degree Fahrenheit in Mongolia. It's four degrees Fahrenheit. So it's getting much hotter and drier and that is adding to this process of desertification so you get basically an additional fifteen hundred square miles of desert every year. So that's like the Gobi. Sorry that's like adding Rhode Island to the Gobi desert every year. There's that and then that dust blows across the country to cities on the coast like Beijing. Where it combines with soot from coal fired power plants and factories and adds the air pollution in Beijing and then in another five days it comes to California so about forty percent of the air pollution in California can be attributed to dust from Chinese factories and so learning. All of that was really incredible. Because I had would never have thought that those things would be connected and also thinking I think we think of our close is kind of belonging to us and not part of these big global systems. Which is shouldn't it's surprising. But it shouldn't be you know when we think about where stuff is made and what it's made from but yeah so learning. That was kind of incredible and I think it's really when we talk about kind of international climate policy. There's a lot of hand wringing about how will we stay under two degrees Celsius of China's doing x? But we're buying a lot of the things that China's making that results in these emissions. So I think it's really important for us to acknowledge our role in these global systems. And there's no way that we're staying. It's were like blasting past three rate at this rate. Well the biggest variable in climate modeling is what we decide to do about it. So we're like we're not yet at one point five and there is a certain amount of warming that is kind of baked into the system. Just by how M- how much carbon dioxide and other gases are in that but I think there are things that could accelerate warming there things that can slow it down so it really depends what we decided to do. But yeah business as usual isn't is not below to we have to make significant changes like net zero by two thousand fifty right. What are you most excited about? Like vacuuming carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere with machine. Don't exist or carbon farms or in general. I think I am not what we in. The climate community call a techno optimist. So basically like. I don't think that technology is going to solve this problem and I also don't think we have time to wait. I mean maybe it will but we need to do a lot in the meantime and there is a lot that we can. Do you know whether it's getting rid of fossil fuel subsidies so that fossil fuels competitive and therefore we can expand renewables you know installing more offshore wind which is a huge opportunity not deforesting Alaska which the trump administration wants to do not drilling for oil and gas and public land's all there are lots of solutions that already exist you know like in the US sixty seven percent of our crop calories. Don't feed people if animals so fixing that so there are really a lot of ways around this that that solutions that are already available and so I hope that maybe there's a technology someday that sucks all the carbon dioxide atmosphere. But we don't have time to wait for that right in the context of food and eating much lower on the food chain. Which touchy on us. Not Convincing you to do vaulter Longo. It's the lawn Jevon Diet guys. What as what. Can we do besides buying things in a more conscientious way to just do what we can? Yeah in terms of food or everything everything okay. In general what I try to do is like consume less. You know? Mostly I don't need what I want and I find it actually very satisfying to shop online without actually buying anything and just imagine what my life would be like that. But yeah you know I the the way to have this diet. With the smallest carbon footprint is eat mostly plants and then also farmed shellfish. So there's that but yeah I think in general to consume less to to really think about what you need. If you I mean buying secondhand are renting. Close the in terms of fashion. That's really good eating less meat eating less dairy all these things are really great but really I think difficult flying less. Sorry UNITED BUYING CARBON OFFSET. All these things are really important but I think that those things you know. I try to do a lot of those things because I want to be the kind of person who acts on new information as I acquire it and lives in line with my values but not because I think that's how we solve this problem but I do think I hope that if we understand why we're making some of these sacrifices and maybe it will make us more willing to make them. Yeah you touched on anxiety and I guess feeling less anxious which seemed like a miracle to me but are you. Are you optimistic? Are you terrified? Like do you think that mother Earth flicks off like a like an aunt. I mean she sending us some powerful signals that that's she's getting ready I. I don't know that I'm hopeful or optimistic but I. I believe that these kinds of changes are possible. I don't think I could do what I do if I didn't but also I think I'm incredibly inspired by the youth climate strike and the suits against the lawsuits against the government. And what's happening all over the world but I'm also really inspired because we've done this before we wouldn't have the Clean Air Act and the clean water act and a lot of the environmental really strong environmental laws that we do have it hadn't been for the grassroots action that led to the first Earth Day and the nineteen seventy midterm elections which changed the makeup of Congress. And you know a direct result of that is the laws and so. I think the fact that this is possible. Twenty million Americans came out for the first Earth Day so at the time. That's like I mean there were two hundred million American. So that's like ten percent of the population which is really incredible. So like we all have that power and so the realizing that and kind of acknowledging that that those things have happened before and that therefore they can happen again. That's what makes me feel hopeful and able to continue writing about all the other terrible things that are happening in the rest of the time. What do you of the new green deal like? How would you change it and then not to put you on the spot but who? Which are there candidates who you think are really like have faith that they will do something about this the problem with anything we will not be able to get a lot done if we have? Republican Congress and Senate even if we have a Democratic president? So that's why voting at all levels particularly the federal level in the next election is really important. You know I think the green new deal. There hasn't been a ton of concrete policy items associated with it so I think it's been amazing in terms of raising awareness and changing the conversation around what is possible and what kinds of radical action we do need and I think the fact that they're getting people to understand. Climate change is systemic and structural issue as opposed to like something we can isolate as being just climate. Change is really important and really significant. Anything would be better than now truly anything so you know and I'm you know. I think there was a lot of people. Were really upset that there was not climate. Change question at the most recent debate which is right for people to be upset about that but like every question is climate change question and I feel like that's really how we need to be thinking about this topic and it really matters. I will miss quote this but essentially Al Gore who I know Blurbs Your Book David while smalls was saying that if he had won and maybe he did but if he had become president and enacted sort of his plan we would be at like half a degree. They would have been a dramatic. Lot of this has happened just in the past few decades so it really matters dramatically. I think for our kids and our grandchildren and I think we sort of all thought. Maybe this'll be our kids grandkids problem and it's becoming at least. It feels apparent to me that this is no problem right like this is going. Yeah fact us. Yeah I think we often. It's like we hear like twenty fifty or twenty one hundred and then we're like okay. That's when it happens but it happens a lot before then too and it's happening. I mean this weather with becoming weather is like a normal events Constantly and it's only going to happen with frequency because we're we're not that far along what's what's to come. Yeah more frequency in more intensity also so the loss of look forward to yea. Thanks for listening. To my conversation with Tatiana Schlossberg for more anti Tsiana had to talk TSIANA SCHLOSSBERG DOT com. That's S. C. H. L. O. S. V. E. R. G. And then say that eighteen times fast and make sure to get a copy of her book inconspicuous consumption. That's it for today's episode. 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