149: Americas Soccer League With Steve Holroyd


Hey Gang this week's episode is brought to you by the Arizona Office of Tourism this spring. Follow your favorite baseball teams to Arizona for Cactus League spring training amazing whether landscapes exciting outdoor adventure. Incredible Food Arizona. Is the perfect home base for baseball fans. Plan your spring training getaway at visit in Arizona Dot com slash spring training. Yes that's visit Arizona dot com slash spring training. And now. Here's our show seconds left on the clock down one more. The crowd express that I maybe to American Soccer League Championship. Why the score of four to one over Oklahoma the city to win the best of three series tuna one Detroit I Oklahoma City one behind restoring? Oh shut checking Chapman Watson antenna and a great goaltending by this crowd celebrating here at the Pontiac Silverdome. ooh What a great van here the dome absolutely perfect ending refined find season for the Detroit Express kept her alive in two years of the American Soccer League. He's built something and he's built today with thirty three thousand Detroit Detroit a championship. The only championship. We've seen in a long time a very very fine performance all around. Welcome to Good seats still available. A curious little podcast devoted to exploring what used to be in professional sports. Here's your host. Tim I'm handling greetings and salutations. Everybody my name is indeed. Tim Henman how are you buddy. This is good seats still available you. I know that by now appreciate your findings are curious. Little podcast are excursion each week into what used to be in professional sports and as you heard there we are. We're going back to soccer and not the obvious forays into the NSL which we've done quite a bit of over many many months of this This little show. We're going into something. We've only talked about just once episode. twenty-nine specifically with our Pal Ronnie Salerno in Cincinnati when we talked about the Cincinnati comets back in I guess it was nineteen seventy four ish or seventy three ish of the old American Soccer League in you know it's been a curiosity and frankly a number of enquiries stories over the last number of weeks about questions about teams and people in the American soccer league the most Perhaps enigmatic of of soccer history St Leagues in this country and we have called upon our resident soccer expert. Steve Holroyd this week to kind of allow allow us to go into perhaps an early survey of this most curious of professional soccer leagues in the United States. The American soccer together but a number of different versions of it for you persnickety Soccer historians out there so this is a essentially known as the second version of the American Soccer League. But it's the longest lasting and perhaps the most Historical I guess of all of the American Soccer Leagues it Got It start Way Back in nineteen thirty three and and truly to its name was envisioned to be a top Tier Professional League especially amongst baseball all team owners and We've sort of heard and seen some of those. Those approaches before however as things sort of war on the war were World War. Two and all these other distractions the American Soccer League. Basically in the forties and fifties and sixties pretty much sort of Languished a AH albeit spirited in as mostly an ethnic league comprised mostly of new immigrants to the United States. It's especially in the east coast a little bit mid West and some very amazing and strong teams and and there's a whole very very deep and rich history there is arguably arguably Most of the the players that for example played on the team of the US national team in nineteen fifty upset England during the World Cup sort of the one of the greatest game ever played in American soccer history. You know of any professional that rose above I guess either play outside this country or even and coach door or was found in the collegiate and and semi pro ranks came out of this American Soccer League During that period of time but it was around in the early one thousand nine hundred seventies which is kind of the time. We're going to be sort of focused on With our conversation with Steve Holroyd and just a few moments is when the American soccer. Really Kinda got the fever. Shall we say. Got The got the bug the top tier professional bug that the North American soccer league had had kind of perhaps to lay the groundwork for and the ASL kind of didn't want to get left behind as we'll get into our conversation with Steve that Kinda all got set in motion in the late nineteen sixties when as we've talked about on multiple episodes to if not even three groups of of business business owners and business Sports are entrepreneurs got together to kind of take advantage of the nineteen sixty six World Cup. NBC's national broadcast of the game In the United States to create once and for all some top tier professional level leagues in the United States. And we all know sort of what the happened there in sixty seven there were two leagues rivaling each other they sort of merge into nineteen sixty eight to become the North American soccer league and then they quickly crashed burnin and an almost didn't survive sixty nine nine hundred seventy. I mean we're down to like five teams in those. NSL Lean years but the American soccer soccer leagues. You know a couple of years after that seventy two seventy three or so as the An. ESL was regaining. Its toehold starting to get a little bit more traction and and as the process by which American soccer was kind of rerouting itself shall we say the American Soccer Soccer League the ASL was us Watching quietly and then not so quietly in the background. And we're GONNA get into that period of time in this American Soccer League from roughly the early nineteen seventies when the sort of The the beginning of the end I guess of these ethnic teams in clubs. You know we're talking about teams known as the New York Greeks The Philadelphia Ukrainians and the Baltimore Saint Gerard's and Roma Sec. The Newark Portuguese Ukrainian stitch also of Newark New York. Inter her these are all teams that literally were the legacy of the American. Soccer League is clearly a conversation for another show at some point. But in the early the seventies we saw the beginnings of a desire to sort of shed those ethnic names and and become a bit more. Shall we say American centric And truly tried to devote more effort around developing the quintessentially American quote unquote player. And that was what the American soccer the League under the under the guidance of guy named gene which Who will talk about to in this Yes his brother was Walsh's which we've talked about him peripherally as well in previous conversations but you saw for example. The New York Greeks become the New York Apollo a little bit more American sounding and teams like the New Jersey. Americans pins in the Los Angeles Skyhawks the Columbus Magic the Sacramento gold. And as you heard in that clip at the beginning of this little show here The Detroit Loyd Express and the Oklahoma City slickers who in one thousand nine hundred eighty two We're playing for the American Soccer League Championship. A three-game affair the last which you just heard there was the championship securing victory in front of guys who is almost thirty thousand people in the Pontiac. Silverdome is the Detroit. Express press unsuccessful in winning a championship in their years in the NSL finally broke through in one Detroit's only professional soccer championship at the tail. End of nineteen eighteen eighty two. As a matter of fact I think it was. Oh my gosh I think it was Sometime in September yes. September twenty second nineteen eighteen eighty two as a matter of fact and that that clip was featuring the the dulcet play by play tones of Bob. Lewin douse key and color. Commentary commentary by Roger Faulkner on the something called the Detroit Express television network. I don't know how significant or deep-rooted that was there in the Pontiac. Silverdome in front of almost thirty thousand fans Was the second to last penultimate American Soccer League champion that was crowned but we get into this period of time the sort of early nineteen seventies through the early nineteen eighties into amazing stories about this. I wouldn't call it. Division to although in in the in the sort of the prism of history sort of considered to be sort of the second tier behind the The then mighty North Americans Arkley the ASL the American and soccer league and it's it's so many different twists and turns And again if you were a fan of the indy daredevils or the Georgia generals perhaps the Houston Dynamos. Or maybe even the second incarnation of the Jacksonville tea men. When they left New York Excuse me the North American soccer league the Rochester Flash the Carolina lightning all kinds of interesting teams. That came and went in the old America. We get into the Pennsylvania's stones. Yes all of those things spend more in our conversation with the great soccer story and we appreciate his joining a Steve holroyd coming up in just a moment or two fascinating stuff. Even if you've if I'd never heard of the ASL or even if you fancy yourself soccer fan you may not know a lot about this American soccer league. And I think you'll enjoy as you will also enjoy the fine wares of one of our great sponsors are pals at old school shirts dot com and our pals Pf Wilson and his band of Mary Women and men in in Cincinnati and Of course there are some great shirts that you can use to commemorate this episode about the old. ASL At old school shirts dot Com using that Promo Code of of course good seats for ten percent all of your purchases and what are they got their. Well they've got shirts commemorating clearly lots of old teams no longer with US certainly a lot. Lot of Great pop culture history amusement parks and and bars and restaurants and all kinds of stuff that you may remember and you'd like to proudly do so in t-shirt form but of course old school shirts dot com. He says Promo Code. Good seats has a number of wait for American Soccer League t shirts. I mentioned the Indianapolis daredevils also known as the Indy dare-devils they played in Indianapolis in the ASL from nineteen seventy eight through nineteen seventy-nine two seasons. They were formerly known as the the Rhode Island Ocean ears and they played in in the Providence area from nineteen seventy four through seventy six and then they renamed themselves the New England Ocean years and seventy seven. I'm not sure exactly where they played. Then but in one thousand nine hundred seventy eight. They moved to Indianapolis to become dare devils. And there's a tremendous shirt there. At old school shirts dot com commemorating during the indy. Dare devils and if you're if you spy with your little I you'll notice that. The logo of the Indy daredevils looks a lot like a rehashed. Rehashed version of the ocean ears logo from their time in Rhode Island fascinating stuff and a great looking shirt. Perhaps one of the best logos both the ocean ears and the dare-devils the Indianapolis Annapolis Daredevil said old school shirts dot com again. Promo code good seats. There's also an Cleveland Cobras shirt. The Cleveland Cobras were one of the longer-lasting of the modern version of the ASL teams for nineteen seventy four through nineteen eighty-one. They started their life. Actually as the Cleveland Stars and yeses shirt there at old school shirts dot com. I'm commemorating that version in nineteen seventy two and seventy three. The Cleveland Stars the Cobras. Of course for you Folks paying attention in eighty two then moved to Georgia Atlanta Atlanta suburbs to become the Georgia generals. But all those shirts and more plenty more. Are there for you. Enjoy and reminisce at old school shorts shorts dot com again. Use that Promo code good seats and get ten percent of all of your purchases not just these. ASL shirts but all kinds of other great sports and pop culture culture history shirts and again our friends. PF Wilson and team at old school shirts dot com. Again that Promo code good seats for ten percent of all all of your purchases we thank them and you for trying them out and As they say you'll be glad you did all right. Let's move on into the fun and very very interesting origin stories. I guess of the late Life of the American soccer. We're going to focus on this. This time between the early seventies through through their demise in one thousand nine hundred three of the old asl. Here's our conversation that we have with Steve just a couple of days ago and Please enjoy you want to remind our audience who you are by day who you are by night and how soccer soccer and and maybe even Lacrosse for that matter has sort of. I won't say consumed your life but it certainly is taking up a large part of it outside of the way you put bread on the table. Well thanks for having me back Tim my name is Steve Holroyd by day. I and a Labor Attorney Here in the city of brotherly love Philadelphia representing labor unions In what free time I have if it's not playing soccer When my kids were younger including coaching soccer? Now it's mostly spent a lot of time compiling and writing about The great history has an his country even most people think It started in nineteen ninety four with the World Cup. Some people who think they're particularly clever. We'll take it started with payloads arrival in nineteen seventy five live but in fact it's got a history including professional history professional history back to nineteenth century so So that's it's I spend a Lotta time doing that Lately on just collect a lot of primary resources and from their call out to bits and the stuff that I can write about or tweet on twitter just to sort of generate interest in the fact that this sport does have a history and it needs to be honored. That's it As a historian. I'd have to say I'm here today to bury the second asl not to prison And I think we'll we'll get into some of that in due course but to your point I think there's a lot of interest in it for two reasons one There there's a there's a vehemently anti MLS contingent on social media the things that advances there caused by Pretending that professional soccer has always been here in the United States and I guess in a strict technical sense it has but it depends on what you mean by professional as opposed to Major League and this group likes the champion the American Soccer League as oh it was they're just like the NBA and Major League Baseball and we need to honor it and that really wasn't the case and as far as the latter day asl th they were going. Don't even speaking mostly about today. I think I think is interesting because People WanNa take lessons from the past and to the extent they wanna see gene arrival through MLS. And frankly I'm one of them I'd like to see legitimate reliable to major league soccer like the AFL like the like the W. w. h. a.. Had Been in that because I think that rivalry and what really bring about positive change in American sports and I think they're looking to the American soccer league in that brief window when it tried to be something close it's a major league when it tried to If not challenged. NSL offer a different version of how professional soccer Could be and of course it also failed and I think some people would like to take lessons from that. Well let let's talk about the the NSL Ah specifically because you know in my back and forth with you on sort of my memories and then aided by some of my arguably cursory research I kind of circled the early nineteen seventies. I think perhaps nineteen seventy-one ishwar. So as sort of the I guess the sort of I I don't know the the the inflection point of what was the ASL and again for historian Sake. And I don't want to get into the particulars of the the true second incarnation one of the American Soccer League but albeit for since nineteen thirty three in its second Incarnation was really sort of this inflection towards more truly or at least a an Tissa toy or trying to truly get to a more professional or major league kind of thing but I I think actually having having referred to my old encyclopedia cyclope of American soccer history by measures. Alloway Joe's into litterers you. Could you could argue as they have in their entry here for the ASL number you too. Is that the neuron. Nine hundred sixty six really is kind of maybe. In their words they sort of the beginning of the end I guess of the ASL's potential roll oversight of professional game here in the United States because ironically or maybe not so it it it was when the United States Soccer Federation or us. I guess it was called the USS USS FAA at that point still EG e basically gave a grant to a fledgling entity that that wanted to go truly big league and arguably kind of took that power away from this ASL. That I don't know should have had a better game plan to get there. I don't know maybe you can kind of set up. Maybe using that as a starting point step yeah and I think that's an excellent starting point Up The Up In nineteen sixty six. The American Arkansas clearly was extensively professionally but it had it had this status none of the other equally semi pro. They've such as the National Soccer League in Chicago or the Saint Louis Soccer League hat and that was that the United States Soccer Football Association as you indicated you know it was called at the time had granted to the ASL exclusive rights to control professional soccer on the eastern seaboard and that itself is a vestige of compromised from like a second soccer war. Everyone most soccer fans if they've been paying attention and in listening to your podcast and reading the stuff that the Society for American soccer history puts out there where the soccer nineteen twenty eight twenty nine. It was a desperate is a is a body blow to the original. ASL and and just did not help. The sport was actually a second war. Much smaller scope right around right around that I period between the end of the first day I saw him the second. ASL and wanted to compromise is was The United States soccer the United States Football Association at the time continued to say we are going. We are controlling professional soccer. We're not gonNA give the ASL the autonomy. It's been seeking since you know. Nineteen eighteen twenty four. You have you still have to us however we will give you A. ASL exclusive rights that eastern seaboard and all the so ever did with that was they use that as a as a method to import foreign teams over to play exhibitions which were very profitable and help keep the ASL lot. But they didn't really try to do much else with it except to stop the international soccer with Bill Cox's international soccer from continuing because there for the first first time the ISL compel to To waive its hey exclusive pro league here we control this however up until as of nineteen eighteen sixty six the second. ASL remain what hit it always been it was non professional soccer. They as much as it was a loose affiliation of ethnic social flops and so when Major League small saw small l soccer Started to rear. Its Hey in late. Nineteen sixty six They ASL was not only happy to stay out of the way. Wish them luck because having a national league with big budgets and everything else was really nothing that again these little social clubs ethnic social running the NFL teams had any interesting But they also so happy to step out of the way and kind of see their exclusivity status and yeah with that at that moment we asl cease to be relevant And Yeah that's when I should say the ethnic era of the second. ASL cease to be relevant and began on a slow death. Spiral that stopped in nineteen seventy one when the truly American American Soccer League if you will began to take shape yes so it's interesting I mean and maybe this is sort of historical nitpicking. But you almost wonder maybe why obviously it was still sort of in continuation relation but maybe why it wasn't sort of a demarcated almost as if you will the third version at that point given that it took on a different complexion. We'll get into that in a in a second estimate how that started to become but but you know give us a sense of some of the teams around that sort of nineteen sixty six sort of decision point and the early rumblings seventy one issue. So we're talking about You know places like the Metropolitan Oval in New York and teams out of Kearney and and the New York I mean there are all kinds of ethnic enclaves and teams. And it's very much A. Could you call it. Semi pro. I mean was was there was there pay or was it literally just competition and just keeping their keeping their bills paid or what was the construct of that as we then segue into seventy one or so when it truly desire to become more professional it's The the American Soccer League was semi pro Folks were getting paid. Maybe not every team was paying but I guess probably the best description was provided by Walsh's swatches of which was a longtime star. You're in the American soccer league for the nineteen sixties with With Newark Ukrainian Stitch Philadelphia Ukrainian nationals and in nineteen sixty seven he He jumps to Philadelphia Spartans of the National Professional Soccer League. One of the two major leagues that have popped up that year and and he offered he. I guess he was asked to some point. Hey how is this different from playing with the old Ukrainian nationals and choose what said he offered this quote. The I saw what was supposed to be a professional league but I considered it amateur. It was a higher standard of play. Sure but nobody was making any money. It was a joke. There was no money to be had. I got got three dollars for expenses with Ukraine nationals to practice and six dollars on game days every two or three years players believe because imagine problems. Coaching problems. Coach yourself self really. Somebody's just made up the line right. There was always a problem scheduling was never stable. A lot of teams came in with a lot of food and found that they couldn't exist financially. Polish Falcons Ludlow Massachusetts New York per cat and and so on so I mean he he does a pretty good idea of just what they you were to send me. There was a it was a beer in that. You your showed up when you could you make practice when you could because everyone had day jobs and you've got some pocket uh-huh I mean that's that's professional in the truest sense of the word and I showed up and you gave me money to play but to argue that that's professional in the sense that We consider professional particularly when we're talking about professional sports is is is all and that's what they were looking at you As as the as the the age of Inter Brooklyn Italian and and Ukraine nationals. Hakoah Americans Newark Portuguese. What you these you know even even go into the nineteen in the nineteen seventies What was still very much an ethnic soccer elite again especially competing against the North American Soccer League which while far from flourishing was at least trying to play okay and in actual statements as opposed to as you point out the metropolitan or high school fields And and that is really kinda petered out at at the end of the nineteen seventy season so the point where it was really a team last the Boston Astros and the Philadelphia spartans and and it ultimately fall on the shoulders of one man to keep it going and And hit the past he chose to take was finally Americanizing. Americanizing this league and providing a place where American kids could play our before we get into who that person was and that sort of next step back up F for one quick second and you mentioned the international soccer league. The bill Cox Sort of run a precursor to maybe arguably what is today things like like the The importation literally of full teams and having them sort of play an exhibition schedule and even competitively during the summer months It sounds like that was sort of an existential threat to the ASL's charter and it's a unique position to own if you will professionalism on the east coast host at that time but it's interesting to me. Why did they not? Maybe use that a challenge and having beaten off. I guess that challenge so to speak as the opportunity opportunity to maybe Kinda do what ultimately came after the sixty six World Cup and two or even three depending on your read history groups from the outside that said we want to big league with soccer. I mean it sounds to me naively that the ASL lost the opportunity and needed the fledgling ruling then NASA. Although it'll be flat itself floundering in nineteen seventy to kind of kick them in the butt to realize that. There is an opportunity to do that. I guess from if that's any any part of that is correct. Why was it so dormant and were not ambitious given some of those rumblings in those existential challenges just before this well? I think it's important to remember that the opportunity that the ASL was protecting when it played its card and forced is the US FFA initials missed whatever the US soccer to to step on the international soccer league was not because the American soccer. Doc was afraid that someone's going to step on our status as a professional league it was solely because the ISIL was cutting into profits in the world of foreign tours source of bringing those other teams over The ASL wasn't interested in in the opportunity of being a major league Because again and I don't want to overstate the point because I particularly given the tenor of the Times on the issue of immigration. But Again it must be remembered. The American Soccer League was really just a group of ethnic social clubs with teams playing for the pride of the motherland No they they would use whatever players they could to bring them that gory. I mean some of the later. Ukrainian national sides when he opened cups in the and Later sixties featured Brazilians. And and. What have you they play to play In the end what the real interests of the club owners. There's was glorifying the mother and it wasn't in growing the game. It wasn't in developing American talent and it certainly wasn't in You know just having a professional soccer league in their defense. They weren't equipped for it. They didn't have the money to actually you know throwing the money and In in in try to compete and get television contracts and things like that it just wasn't any ASL's DNA and again that's why you would think the way they fought the ISIL. You'd think they would have fought just as hard against those two or three competing professional groups popping up in late nineteen sixty six Reminding US US assay here. We all don't forget us. We're here we. We had the exclusive right now and they stepped out of the way historically the Aso don that on several occasions prior back in nineteen forty six for instance Again the wars the Second World War is over. American servicemen have been exposed to the game of soccer wild while fighting in Europe. This interest in it and there was Th The individuals are interested in in maybe sort of further the professional is in the game. And it's a group of teams in the Mid West Chicago and Detroit who approached the ASL and said hey we'd like the Bay Western division and he has no thanks to much trouble and so those those individuals instead for them. The North American Soccer Football League which lasted about a year and a half. I mean but again the opportunity to sort of expand beyond its backyard and be something more than just go five Sunday league and they they they took a pass on with no regrets because it just wasn't something that group of individuals at that time was interested in it all right so you hinted it added earlier before that question circuit. Let's get into like nine hundred seventy one right. So what's changing. Now in seventy one and I'll give our audience a bit of a sort of a framing a and a and a hint that you know this sort of North American Soccer League which had a couple of years under its belt after a relatively chaotic start in sixty sixty seven and then sixty eight has its own merged unit itself was not doing all that well they the proverbial top-tier if you will put that in quotes a professional soccer in this country was as history shows down to five teams and not looking very healthy itself but the state of this. Asl In one thousand nine hundred seventy one. You're mentioning this. Really itself was only down to two teams what happens in what transpires that To begin to change some of that. And why why I guess the the final nail in the ethnic the Sol's coffin was as you point out nineteen sixty eight utter collapse of the NSL. It's in the sixty nine flew the work of Philo losing them to Cajole five teams. Just sticking it out and nearing the end of nineteen sixty nine season. The baltimore-based say we can't do it anymore. the Orioles Baseball team. We're pulling funding. We can't do this anymore and wisdom's kind of in a panic. He knows he can't run a fourteen week. So what did he go he reached down to the ASL. To in sixty eight had Had recently expanded expanded a little bit beyond their traditional New York northern New Jersey Philadelphia in Baltimore The territory and put things in in Washington. DC and Rochester the Rochester Lancers and the and the Washington Darts And in nineteen sixty nine. The Lancers beat the darts to win the title and Nineteen Seventy Losing Lords and succumbing to the North American Soccer League. Yes there we say. Two teams promoted from the I so to the show but with that I mean the afl kind of I think the the the old guard Again the the ethnic here the ASL saw the writing on the wall basically anyone who has ambition to really promote soccer and the a soccer team and no answers weren't a social club the darts weren't you know an ethnic club as opposed to New York intern. Somebody other things over there. They they kind of realized. We can't keep this going. Why bother so you get to nineteen seventy-one Ukrainian nationals one of the ISL's most story story teams and and with a lineage? Goes all the way back to thirty three if you count you know. Philadelphia Germans and Philadelphia nationals. The franchises develop jumped on amateur league. You know Newark Stitch couldn't find a field anymore. You only had the Boston Astros and the Philadelphia spartans and everyone kind of had enough and and then up steps We mentioned Walter Chisel wits Well he also. He had a brother Eugene his wits who was also good player. Good coach and he stepped in took over as lead president. Nineteen seventy one and just started hustling His first big coup was to convince the New York Greeks who were the three-time Open Cup winners from sixty seven sixty nine got them to join the League and then because at that point he needed teams. I was pretty much willing to place a team anywhere willing to host. The team manages the place teams in Syracuse and Virginia And the only play so so nineteen seventy-one on you know He. He managed to cobble together. Five Teen League only played ten gangs but separately going and more to the point he had to play started telling anyone who would listen that. And this was his phrase he was GonNa make the American Soccer League quote the American League for the American boy and and at that moment you know at least conceptually. The American Soccer League was no longer just a loose confederation of ethnic social because it was now going to be a truly professional league and again no different than ESL. Just how professional as far as you still work day jobs and things like that is is open to question but at least now is going to hold itself out as a soccer league as far as professional soccer league and and Walnut Challenge. NSL At least initially certainly provide an alternative Again primarily focusing on as opposed Dan. ESL We are going to. Americans plan. I mean in fact just the first thing Jean Shirt which did was he announced that All teams in the NFL would be required to Kylie four Americans on the roster with two in the starting lineup and while that may not sound like much it's It's you know it's four and two more than the. NFL was requiring at that time. So that sounds like a little bit of opportunism but also a bit of of vision right. I mean and I guess it takes a little of both right because you look at nineteen seventy one I mean the. NFL's just starting to maybe regained a little bit of its footing after some very dark years and some gigantic ambitions just a few years prior I mean it almost is feels like on some level. He's thinking that the NFL will continue and continue to gain some strength but but with a sort of a more. I don't know a splash. Year kind of approach and and the ASL could differentiate itself albeit maybe in a smaller kind of manner accordingly. So is that a fair assessment assessment. Or is he just trying to survive and just do a do soccer a different way that he thought was more sustainable It's probably a little both. I mean he certainly saw an opportunity in that again. Game as a nineteen seventy-one unless you're on the Saint Louis Stars. As an American you would virtually zero chance of playing this league. I if you were a native born American can less than zero Again unless you were on the stars So I think he saw both a business opportunity again providing a an alternative You know Sorta like we'll give you playground basketball's opposed stodgy you know Jim Style the NBA was playing very structured structured. But it was but I do think you know changes which was a believer any American player. He wanted to see the Game Americanized. So the it was a it was both vision and an opportunity But it's interesting to point out 'cause as you know the NFL survive sixty nine survive seventy and seventy one. The New York cosmo's which is important not not only because they're back in New York? But because Warner brothers. Communications owns the team. And while they weren't pumping humping cash into it right away. It's it was. It was a high profile owner. It certainly helps attract other owners. I seventy two. Meanwhile the the ASL oh one year after barely surviving itself in keeping with gene with goal to Americanized League. The first thing he does is the press. Call that a merger but it really wasn't. Here's -ffiliated with New Jersey Schaefer. Soccer a very competitive North Jersey League sponsored by Schaefer Beer Schaefer. Yeah which had one of the Great all-time slogans which you will never hear again. Schaefer is the one beer to have when you're having more than one L.. I remember vividly. Of course seeing the for for you to but I will. I will not burn. Can you imagine doing that today. But after after affiliating with with one of the major junior circuits because again his goal was to to be a developmental league for the American player he has nine teams. I mean in Nineteen Seventy two the ASL has twelve teams. It's actually larger than any of that self is point although admittedly sadly neither Most of our brand new you know. But he moved to the Mid West Cincinnati comets entered elite who he referenced there And you know Walter Geezer who features prominently in American soccer history. And the he POPs up in the miracle match anyone seeing that Entertain movie about the Nineteen Fifty World Cup team. He owns the saint. Louis Frog Saint Louis is finally going to dip. It's to- In a national professional leagues opposed its regional lead and and and the goal is American players lawyers. I mean the Delaware Wings the the Nor'easter it's They started North Jersey hundred percent American players th-the lost is really being filled with Americans and you know. The New York Greeks are holding on The Boston Astros are still largely Portuguese. But everyone else is you know signing up with the concept of we're GONNA provide the American soccer for the American fan and and you know it leads to some In that in that in the period from seventy one to seventy four which which is when we see the next break With the hiring of dough cousy as commissioner. You See Things you know the seventy three choose. What's finally finally bands? Ethnic nicknames can figure that by Nineteen seventy-three For Forty Years in the League's history. They finally bands ethnic nicknames. And you see him seventy four. You know all the fuss about Freddie do he was fourteen allegedly when he was signed the Boston Astros and seventy four had a sixteen year. Old Kid named Steve AIDS. He's playing for them. I mean these teams they were they were all in with the With the Americanization thing but you know they were still l. struggling to get nervous because it's still largely a northeast league notwithstanding the presence of the comets and Chicago cats and things like that it's still primarily in the northeast corridor. And of course by seventy four. I mean by seventy three the NFL with the Philadelphia. Atoms takes a big step forward towards you know getting national recognition. They get on the cover of sports illustrated Seventy four the the. NFL has a very successful west coast expansion and and yourself five itself falling behind again. So the the default was we need to take the next step towards becoming professional. Let's Higher Commissioner. And let's hire commissioner. Who's going to get some publicity? And so they hired Bill cousy who is a name known to most Americans but not for soccer. He's a great basketball player. And that starts to the real era of of the ASL trying to be a competitor slash alternative to the Aso. Aw which is you know. Basically nineteen seventy five until its demise and he gets Kuzina in just a second. But but just underline your point about sort of the move away from Shall we say an overt ethnicity A an important Change was the New York Greeks would who had won the championship. I think think in what seventy one was it of the ASL. Maybe seventy two. I forget which somewhere around there They came in seventy one always among one of the League's top teams right and they changed their name to the New York. Apollo which you know islanders will remember in the latter part of the of the seventies. We'll talk about that a few minutes. you know became sort one of the Stronger or remained. If you will. But it's also interesting too because that sort of that ethnicity thing that sort of ethnic sort of route routing of of of clubs and and and and league play and stuff that was something that even the NSL couldn't get rid itself of until in probably more visible terms until nineteen seventy six until after the Toronto Metros which were really metros Croatia at that point one the entire championship. Much to the Granville Phil wasn't in on the. NFL really wasn't until after that they were able to sort of officially get rid of any sort of overt ethnic labels. But but it's an interesting. It's an interesting a component of all this history because frankly without many generations of of immigrants to this country you wouldn't even NBC frankly in a position even in the early seventies to even begin to think about how to quote Unquote Americanized the game with pure American players and talent given how our relatively nascent and still very ethic. The sport was especially at the professional level in this country and make no mistake for as much as I will. We'll criticize the second American Soccer League for its failure to grow to game it practically in both versus both in its ethnic version and they kind step all over themselves in. Its you know in the ladder in its latter era when it when it had an opportunity to really provide an alternative the north North American Soccer League and and just just again just couldn't get out of its own way you know that. That's not the fault the players. That's not the fault the the immigrant communities that supported the game otherwise I guess could have virtually disappeared like say cricket right But for the The participation participation in support of folks who may have been out there waving the banner of the Homeland. Because of that's probably but they're also out there because they love the game and and and you're exactly right. I mean if if the American Soccer League in Nineteen Nineteen thirty three disappeared by say World War. Two and and there wasn't anything at all even remotely resemble professionally. Yeah who knows whether or nineteen sixty six would have happened even with all the excitement over the World Cup and everything else whether nineteen sixty six would have happened. Never mind you know getting a Palay To be willing to come out of retirement and play Here in this country. So yeah I mean while the powers that be that ran the American soccer league in in both versions that we've been talking about Desert a lot of criticism for their mishandling vet various opportunities. The players the fans are above reproach and their jobs. And that's and as you say and because of that. Yeah we're having this discussion now. Alright what's this the Arizona Office of Tourism Spring Training. Oh my God hey this spring. 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ORIGINA- also has tons of stuff for kids to do and see like wildlife parks and science museums aquariums. Even dude ranches. So what are you waiting for. Plan now for your spring training getaway at visit Arizona Dot com slash spring training that's visit Arizona Dot com slash spring in training. Hey and don't forget Senator Postcard I'd love to hear a little bit more about Bob. cousy and how how he gets. Recruited into being the commissioner of this fledgling in the shadow of the bigger. NSL American American Soccer League. And I really don't know much of the story Ma- maybe maybe you can help fill in some gaps and is there any stuff that you know about about sort of like how it crosses his radar. Why the League felt that? They needed a big name from another sport to kind of sort of burnish their image a bit more like why him versus others were there others considered or thought about an and frankly is this gene With Chiswick Chiswick. I always get the name. It's tough for me. Did gene and his in the board I guess were they the ones kind of pulling the strings to kind of make that happen or was it more of a happened stansell angel kind of thing well. Gene Gene was a coach at heart. And and you know he wanted to go and go back and get back with the Apollo Apollo And I think growing the league beyond it's it's Brown paper bag origins. If if you will against still predominant northeast was just beyond his Ken and you you you started to have you know not big money. Man Against wasn't the North the American soccer. But you had New Money coming into the league that fancy themselves as as being a little more visionary very little business savvy that the thought was we just needed splash and and I think they took their cues in some ways from the American basketball says when when they needed commissioner they went to George. Mike now helped Mike and was at least a basketball player but at the time he was one of the most famous basketball players of the era so having him speak for your league was was was not a bad thing and you know just how who's he came to be. The man is Kinda lost the history because again one of the other problems with the American soccer leagues even in Soccer Media at the time which was predominantly soccer America. Weekly newspaper newspaper Didn't spend a whole lot of time covering ASL But what I what I have heard was essentially the search was was. We need a name that people recognize WHO's not really otherwise engaged You know for instance you might have thought. Oh well we'll get it will chamberlain. But he was still depending on what he what what mood. He was in at the time either. Still playing the place the same Yego Kista doors in the ABA was getting ready. You get ball with the International Volleyball Association. Seems kind of busy but Tuesday was out there. All American Name Beloved Basketball Players Star with the Celtics and and If memory serves just someone Aso group happened to know him happened to approach him. He freely admitted in early interviews. He didn't know thing about the game of soccer but he was here the Commissioner so here I am and And and they signed him up And and it worked. I mean dot the Aso and the newspapers because the newspapers the papers were reporting basketball. Legend is commissioner of Soccer League So it works and it because he's presence you know again much like Mike. Aba that's commissioning wasn't just there to govern the league He was there to meet people. He was there to to energize investors again. I guess the thought was talking to talking to someone who might be willing to invest in pro soccer and might be far more exciting for him to me or commissioning legendary the Boston Celtics Guard Bob cousy as opposed to hey come me. Teaches Witt's brother of walked Chisel. It's you you know that does it doesn't quite have the same bank of So he got the job and it's questionable. What did he do for his money because again the league was largely operated by various presidents working underneath him during his tenure but if they had the desired effect act it put the ASL in the math and the league started growing? It started out the west coast. Started you know making splashes as far as challenging Algerian ESL for top college draft picks and things like that so While it remains a mystery is just help wound up being him and history showed. It wasn't a terrible move on so far. Well he is actually still with us. I know he's well into his nineties. And I I honestly any of our listeners either have Reached to reach out capability to him or if he's even a even a had the capacity to talk but it'd be a fascinating chat for sure as to maybe get to some of the some some of the rationale that he was thinking and and what of this league that he saw was was worthwhile. I maybe I could use this point. Now we're talking. Basically the end of nineteen seventy four. If you're keeping tabs at home on your calendars the I guess my question at this point is now just put it in. Let's put it in context. Pele still is six to seven months away away from being announced as the newest signing of the New York Cosmos Right. So this is this is half a year before any of that. So I guess my real general question around in this period of time is i. It's it seems to me that it wants the ASL recognizes that the ASL is growing in a lot of different ways right this national television coverage of the the seventy four championship game and the West Coast expansion and San Jose and the like is is is doing quite well. It certainly has resuscitate itself and then some but yet I also see that they're probably looking at it as a somewhat of a a threat right because they're starting to feel that they could be professional on themselves albeit in a more differentiated sort of American kind of path. I guess here's The question question does the ASL at this point prior to and then just after cousy arrival are they looking at themselves as a true challenger to this now now somewhat more stable asl or are they kind of just betting that the NFL is on its way and we are going to. I don't know for lack of a better word supplemented in our own American centric way. Almost like a dare. I say second division kind of structure. I think at that point you have a split in Iraq's thanks and yeah you sell. I think you see new owners coming in who want to be a direct challenge. They see they see that. There's a future for professional soccer. But they WANNA get it on the cheap they don't WanNa pay. NSL expansion fees They'd rather be a part of this. Utterly that you know has history which which which is marketable to a point but nevertheless be full blown challenges? Then you have Y- another contingent in the league. Some of the older guard who are content a to be professional you know continue to follow the Chisel Gold America Americanizing and and being a little professional but going with the rising tide approach coach. You know as you indicate we'll be we'll be we'll be a minor league we'll be AAA and in fact you know as tyrod maybe we'll we'll wind up version But like in a sense and that split was was a cause for again. I keep mentioning missed stop by the American Soccer League pay as we all know. Sign here in June of seventy five. What's not as fondly remembered that in February of seventy five George Best Manchester United Fan had committed to signing with the New York. COSMO's name just disappear. This stop pretending clock police calls and that would have been splashed. But meanwhile on the American Soccer League there was a team Nineteen seventy four Rhode Island. The oceans expansion team coached by manny. Shell shied who was on the Philadelphia Atoms champions here before the American team had a kid kid named Arnie. Mouser playing goal for them Very good team. But they realized between the Boston team the Minuteman mm-hmm and and in seventy five the NASO's expanding to Hartford with the bison tunnels that the the the the ocean is realized. They had in some stiff competition so they had the opportunity to make a splash themselves in sign Eusebio the Black Pearl the second greatest player in the world By consensus at that point to delay. Yeah Portuguese star Be You know so his name alone. It'd be quiet coup Being Portuguese he's It would give them a Give Rhode Island a real leg up in that in that area against Hartford and against Boston because it was a significant Portuguese community. Emily when and you know and had the opportunity to sign it but he would have been expensive. I mean he was the certainly What he was seeking was more than what Pretty much all players making so you know. The the ocean heirs tried to take a page out of the Winnipeg jets play book in the in the World Hockey Association. Seven the two they said. Hey Getting Eusebio here. We'll help the entire league. You say his presence here what will will give us player even the NFL. Does it have. It'll it'll bounce the entire early so you should help us sign this guy and and the other owners. No we're not interested in some of them have heard Savio others like that. We're not that interested so was missed and you say you wind up signing with the Boston minutemen in the NFL. So I mean that's just that's even as the league attempted to grow it was still. We'll have used the phrase tripping over itself it never ever up until the end was every position where everyone was on the same page and pointing running the same direction. And that's that's a prime example. You know that if you save you the size of the ASL. At that moment it might be considered by many as an equal to the idea so uh-huh and then and then prepay maybe Merger Talk Start Soon. I mean there's a lot of it but you know that that would have been a huge deal for forty American soccer league at that moment at a time when the NFL hadn't really signed anyone big yet and And indeed fill beside George best and and it would certainly put them on the map but again they didn't have the vision some at least enough owners did not have the vision to appreciate. What signing used to bring the League and they let 'em they let the moment pass that see? That's very interesting and and not only do you wonder about that but I also I also I guess I my twin wonder there as is. Where is somebody somebody like cousy? Who you know Big Name Commissioner to not only generate attention for the league arguably you know commissioner such as that should be and maybe managing this situation properly for the league's benefit I guess where was the management there for to sort of make make that situation not go the way it did? No you're right. In fact there's a lot of criticism I mean. He was a few months into his tenure at that point but a lot of people at if I were asking the same questions like wait a minute. We we bought him cousy to Sorta rain in and not only attract investors but kind of rain us into But you know are you still had some of the older clubs while the League what League they've been trying to be Americanized I think among the ownership is still had a lot of that ethnic social club mentality and while cousy would've been it was a big name and got them in the newspapers. Soccer man had no respect for because he he hadn't played the game. He knew nothing about it so him pounding the table Trying to convince someone to spend their money to make another another team better because it will benefit the league is a whole you know you can just imagine the New York Apollo not being interstate. We're winning we all reasonably well. Yeah yeah get their own player so yeah from the very I mean I think more to your point while then the cousy hiring did what was supposed to do as far butchered From the very start his his His I would say his ineptitude but just as inability to to to through force of his world wars personality. Make a game changing events like this happen Just to show that ultimately me it really was just a publicity higher and the League was still going to be largely rudderless which was going to be a problem. Well it seems seen even at the the end of the seventy five season. The playoffs playoffs in the determination of a champion was also wishy. Washy really handled to exactly I mean is too many overtimes so just just throw hands in the air and say Boston New York Co Champions. Go home you know. That's that's that's seventy five was an odd year that way I mean if they miss Assalamu save you Alternatively because he came. Here's the rising tide comes in signs with the Cosmos sports illustrated. There's finally paying a little attention to soccer and those of us who finally remember when sports illustrated was a real sports magazine. You know with with with news and stats as opposed to the human interest stuff. It's doing now. It's back page called scoreboard near the near the end of the near the end of the Mexican school board that that would sum up. What was what was going on? In various sports and in soccer they also covering the ESL meanwhile pay lay had brought the attention. You know the powers that the SI hi it's time recognize. Hey there's a league here too. It's worth talking about. And and so he was getting publicity. It would get mentioned in the weekly summary And you'd see little tidbits it's like Yeah only in the NFL. Would you see that You know Cleveland won a game on the back of a goal by Cleveland Cobras. GM slash player. Jim McMillan if GM ever played Before or since I I don't know I don't know if Mario lemieux counts. He was an owner but but they again the opportunity was there people. Were looking to see what would happen. And instead you. You have a final that peters out into Okay your co champions one team. Actually it was one team was an inch they didn't doing a replay I think it was Boston. Said Yeah we don't we the WE'RE GONNA lose money we we we. We're not GONNA play another game we're not gonNA do a replay so we instead of ordering him to okay. Fine We'll have coaching gates But even in even in that moment when at least up until police arrive they might have been an argument. These are relatively equal. I mean probably some of the best asset team could have people some of the better. NFL teams you saw huge difference. I mean the attendance in the ASL was two thousand two hundred game at the end of nineteen seventy try the NFL immediately with a big post. Pay Bump Was it seven thousand nine thirty so there was. There was too as far as the fan base you know. The people saw the North American soccer league as prime product and and gave me. ASL was was was laboring to try to come back and its next step to try to combat. That wasn't seventy six after two years of planning they. They finally accomplished their west coast expansion. which which what which brought good news and babies I mean again the ASL one step forward two steps back? Well let's talk about that in seventy six also interesting too because not only does is. It seemed like more players seem to be getting picked away from the ASL to go to the NSL seen a number of players. Like why you mentioned mentioned a few like Arne Mouse. Was it already. Mazar on emails are Nineteen Nineteen seventy-three Aso Rookie Doug Macmillan there's also the nineteen seventy four. NFL rookie year. 'cause he jumped with Los Angeles aspects Yeah it was there was a lot of Ringo. CAn't t you can t bill. Yeah yeah huge huge figure in ESL with Hannity Com. It's jumped through the Tampa Bay. ROWDIES seventy five the NFL had more money and and that was and that was. That was a problem that the the ASO would be fighting until the end of it stays to fall its vision. It could never track the real money for one of the better way to characterize it can never track the real money to come on board because they would see North American soccer league anymore. Rapidly growing product doc. It caught on studio had pay so they got back on. Television fits and starts Was a national league. I if I was going to invest in soccer And again in this era we're talking about people who are investing because they wanted to be sports moguls. The ear of someone actually having vision to a to develop soccer hadn't he had arrived. I mean they were going to choose. The Esau retired players were in the same boat. But in seventy but is interesting because seventy six. You have an example where the ASL actually for coup Brown University had to defend the name. Steve Rabovsky hot property. So hot that the the Do all singles aspects traded I think seven players to the San Antonio Thunder for their first pick and ASO draft first overall pick and and the takes drafted Rabovsky. Well the brand new Los Angeles Skyhawks coached by. Ron Newman storied any. ESL coach one time and has champion with the Dallas Tornado. Seventy one also drafted Rabovsky and Rabovsky sign with the ASL. T became the type of thing if you remember the ABA NBA wars. I mean day started making real inroads when they were signing college stars admittedly by like kind of cheating by drafting it was underclassmen. But you know here's an opportunity and But within a year the skyhawks managed winning. They're so fatal manage to find ways not to pay newman and Rabovsky and within a year. They're both back in yourself It's just is too classy. Classy example again. One step forward two steps back garage because Aso since they couldn't get again that real money talking about doc would be inclined to take anyone willing to invest and as these minor sports. We're startup sports if you will have shown whether it was the early Abad eighty early w. h. a. early box across Professional boss across the willingness to take anybody because you just want someone to get involved never works because it turns out the WFL a prime example like ownership groups of fifty people and it doesn't work and that's that was the problem. The Aso so kept running up against era when it was trying to challenge them and it almost seems though to that they were so that's it also seems like the ESL's is in its own way trying to albeit from a differentiated standpoint align itself or mimic the NSL in some way shape or form the point system right which you know we we've gone back and forth on various episodes. I should tend to think it's actually. It was a good thing right where you incentivize not only winning but also scoring goring right and getting extra points for that stuff where so it looks like the ASL kind of created their own sort of almost almost carbon copy of this quote Unquote Newman System. That that did I the things I was going to say. The Newman system which is comical. Because it was basically the NASA NFL system. Except you got five points away not six wchs but it's called a different system. Yes sure but but my point though is that. That's almost you know while we're sort of grinding. Our teeth sort of at the bigger more established tablet. I guess or at least wealthier supposedly North American soccer league you know here. We are trying to emulate indoor align ourselves and it does sound like like that other half of the group that you're talking about you know wants to go maybe more directly competitive at some point or or as soon thereafter to to kind of maybe challenged the more directly. Yeah yeah so I think a and you start seeing that post nineteen seventy seven when again the ASL. They these leaseholders work completely. It's they kind of recognized. They've lost a few opportunities. They were letting their they were not properly vetting owners. Or what have you in. Nineteen seventy seven. They formed American Soccer League Management Inc to basically do what they thought they'd hide Tuesday to do that. Is You know sort of handle the management into things and Marshall things from from From things as basic as. Hey we're GONNA WE'RE GONNA. I think it was voight. Had the deal we've got an official ASL ball and it's GonNa have our seal and we're GONNA WE'RE GONNA get a royalty on every ball with soul you know marketing and the beginning of the more modern approach to Sports Business And with that you start seeing you look you know people are going to any. ESL We you know we still. I mean here so I I want to be American. Still wanted to be traditional soccer. I mean there's some people that chafed at thirty five yard lines of things like that but I guess of course it's the year before sure as hell am But nevertheless new ones able to come in and say look. I'm all for leaving the rules alone too. But there's nothing wrong with incentivizing scoring so it's you know and and not playing for a draw. It's too easy to win at home. Trolling the road. You win a title. That's that's conservative soccer. That's making a wing with something. They could fly points sixers too much they could five and we'll we'll have the bonus goal to incentivize office. Yeah I mean I. They they saw Americans want a more exciting product. But I think the Aso also saw themselves as well. We're we're still. Do you know this is still soccer. We don't WanNa get crazy but we can send a by storing and and you know and we're going to copy the an ESL In that the system did appear to generate offense for as much as people hate it. And Yeah I mean I was. I was the Philadelphia Fan. They made the playoffs. The first two years being a last place each year logic a bonus going is kind of silly. The point totals that would be generated but one couldn't deny the fact that was producing offensive SUV soccer And so yeah they they certainly would looking at their big bubbles. They were looking at that expansion to I mean they they need to get to the west coast and things like that. It was all with an eye towards the. NFL's doing this and doing it successfully. We don't have the budget to get big players. WE'RE NOT GONNA sign it away but But maybe we can do other things again. That's where it goes to. We'll we'll build a better mousetrap. There's going to be an American League America's GonNa Knock you get an opportunity to play I. I mean And and that was true. I mean many Articles of the period but Kevin Welch the prime example in seventy six. I think he. He's with the Hartford. Didn't get off the bench. Trenton New Jersey near that didn't get off the bench in seventy seven. He's playing with the New Jersey. Americans largely living up to their name largely an American team or American born or American braid. If you will you know Ringo Cantero's on thing they win the title but again money being money with the great expansion expansion in seven years in the NFL Welsh suddenly back in the NFL. With the milling team so the same problem. I mean the as those be I guess in in a way it was succeeding too. Well it was playing Americans it was developing Americans. Would that second tier player that otherwise might have escaped any radar and and and only get poached so That remained a problem and again the soccer. Well that would today. That might the attractive. I mean I could see in soccer community. People finding something noble about that and going out and supporting that second team and of course it would further ramp up the whole pro rail discussion. I guess at the time the soccer community was not that sophisticated and And Yeah so it was was was notwithstanding its best efforts not seen as. Hey here's an American alternative. We should follow. It was seen as a minor league and indeed it was probably it seems a minor league when shackled by system because they opened up in an ASL media guide. And you read it supposed to champions as twenty scots. Connie Irish New York took up about Brooklyn Hispaniola and Ukrainian nationals and imagine being a newer fan and wondering what kind of legal my following. It was problematic problematic. It's also interesting around this time too late seventies right to I. It seems that you also had any poaching of ASL talent but actually people coming from the NFL into the ASL themselves. Either on their way down or or having maybe a personal situation or maybe a falling out of favor with a particular the team so I mean for example I mean a Sabia wound up coming back with the New Jersey Americans in the ASL. You had people like Ramona Flynn and real doe. who were part of the COSMO's Osmo in the latter part of Pele's tenure in the with the New York Cosmos going to the New York Eagles also another observation too? So that's it's an interesting sort of blending I guess albeit still you know a top tier versus more seconds later but it does seem to me that the AFL also so for whatever reason still couldn't shake this shakiness if you will of franchises coming and going in and asl certainly was almost the buying ear and that too but the ASL in many respects took two different levels over the years prior. Because you had team that would just collapsed in the middle of the season. I mean talk about tremendous instability. Thirty but I guess the one other thing. I'll start with her out there sort of packing a lot into this semi question. You also look at some of these. The cities that they're in and either to their credit or to their luck I guess they're either supplementing and sort of outlier communities in and around where the NSL had a franchise so for example the New York Apollo being a dedicated long island team to that of the mostly New Jersey. Centric New York Cosmos where New Jersey Americans right being sort of in southern New Jersey. Right so more metropolitan but places like Cleveland or Indianapolis like the dare-devils were a southern California lasers which arguably drafted a bit off off of of some of the The NSL or Sacramento Right. That's a completely separate anew. And until Soil Tacoma was part of that mix and road. I mean so I guess I. The general questions are observations is are we giving them too much credit or are they just sort of going to places where they think they could make pro soccer go. That wasn't the NFL and then does that. Also maybe help This maybe attraction of talent in that it gives some talent that is either maybe on on their way out or on their way up some other places to go if they can't come to an NFL contract. Yeah I'll take the first part of that question I you're right. I mean the you saw all people going back down to the ASL to and it was largely over playing for money. For instance you save you as you point out we savio finally finally signed with the ISL in nineteen seventy nine hundred seventy seven. He was with the Las Vegas. quicksilver is in the NFL and it wasn't signed and seventy eight. He's signs with the New Jersey Americans in late July. Nineteen seventy for twenty thousand dollars to finish out the season. She got twenty thousand dollars. Basically basically play you know six weeks that was the highest salary in the League at the time. So again it gives you an idea of how how Low Oh budget. Yeah so remained. And notwithstanding that they still couldn't keep franchise which goes to the chaos part you were talking about but at that time the they they were they were still kind of competing in an as markets. They got the idea. It's well let's start going where the NFL is not was that was seen as an attempt to grow the game in in other areas that something would be a valiant goal. was that scene as let's grab some of these other properties before the NSL does and that way again it comes times to there comes a time to measure. We're we're we're we're Better footing it's hard to say. But that's what you saw. I started with the West Coast expansion and they can become and Co teams would go But they also look beyond the obvious and you saw like nineteen seventy nine. Ninety eight was both the peak and the is the best and the worst of this latter day American soccer league in one fell swoop starts at seventy nine seventy nine the Pennsylvania storeowners join the League based out of Bethlehem Allentown area stories area for those who love soccer history. You know the home of Bethlehem Steel powerhouses. The twenties. Half a million dollars franchise fee ridiculous victimless amount for the huge amount of money. But this was a team that was squarely line with with changes the original goal. You know he was long gone by that the source involved with the League in seven years in the making You Know Willie Earl it Who was as the mover and Shaker behind the team? Seven Years Developing Basically Academy. What we would call the Kademi Tech I mean the Pennsylvania's donors are today's MLS franchised franchise's in nineteen seventy nine? The interleague seventy nine nineteen eighty year starts in chaos. cousy resigns Joseph Freeman conserving as League president and was owner of the New Jersey Americans. One of the more stronger better supported Salvatori. Even you even for money from the from the COSMO said it was a bit grabbing after you've got fired in By by exactly got fired by the seventy nine harder all only lose them to the fury in nineteen eighteen eighty Although there was a reason for that Raymond son how is not reelected as president sort of fit of keeps. He sells the New Jersey Americans to a London group who They're going to spend the phoenix. There's a team called. The Phoenix fire coached by Jimmy. Gabri hot off of A couple of success the coaching the Seattle sounders including getting through the nineteen seventy seven soccer ball file signing NFL players even had a couple of exhibitions nations against Like the Mexican national beating didn't make it to the starting didn't have money. You know Rodney Marsh comes to the albeit. beat his coach of New York United. The second New York area team yeah he quits after seventeen days But nineteen. That's the bad then. You had the good you know the Pennsylvania's donors I American team. That a kit sponsor without though No one else is doing that at the time but I guess the perfect example of just how crazy the ASL was at that point can be found with the second goal I seventy nine the Sacramento goal. One there so file. Its owner. Owner was bragging about Receiving offers to jump the North American Soccer League. But now I'm staying here. I'm going to stay with the ASL L. by halfway through the nineteen season. It's taken over by the League. They're out of money taken over by the League eventually assumed by Ah Community owners who say publicly we're GONNA play home games and we're GONNA force it the Road Games. We can't afford to go forth the road games in order to keep costs down. They didn't it actually do that. They sucked it up. I mean made it to the final. They made it to the ASO. Final played in Allentown they lost to the Pennsylvania stones. But I just don't have to pay had to give Sacramento fifty five hundred to cover to travel across to get them there so they didn't show up to the final I mean that's like quintessential asl at that time of course at the end of the season they are so drops off the west coast things because it's too expensive travel wise and instead going to the point you made in the middle of your question instead they said. Hey we're now going to develop the deep south. The American south has been largely unconcerned by north. Arkansas lead we are GONNA Look to the South And that's what they did. You know so come. Nineteen nineteen eighty one C by by eighty two. You see four seven teams Charlotte Georgia national start entering the mixed But you see a former relegation the Detroit Express now now join The the American Soccer Leagues Not really the same owners as the original express who moved to Washington For the season. But you start seeing. You know it's funny. America's always have promotion relegation just been on businessmen not feel married people. Don't WanNa hear that but that's the case. Interestingly though there was a western soccer I guess the West Coast having been abandoned. Hey Western soccer league not the one that would later evolve into the often In nineteen eighty two there was talk of the ASL and the WSDL forming to merge something called the union soccer not to be confused with the United Soccer League which we'll talk about eighty four. Of course it doesn't come out because they need to see your so his the Pennsylvania's donors I they. They win the title of their second year. They develop their own players. I mean again. The very prototype of what analysts do today but by eighty three. They're out of my. I mean it's it's because really because Willie early Early is very much. A visionary is like a lot of day sell owners visionary take the money and that and that was a custom problem. This league had to deal with and as you say as you know Jeff Born Phil Parkes some storied. NFL players others are coming to finish their careers. ASL But and and the as those having success in Charlotte probably marshes coach Excuse me Georges which is doing okay at the gate. Now I mean the the southern expansion is is generating results but the older teens. The New York teams the United And in Pennsylvania stones. They can't survive long enough to take advantage of it Speaking of chaos nineteen eighty three. Give me an example to season. It's it's the least Lacy Jacksonville team at relegate themselves. NSL Ta so because the owner still believes in soccer but doesn't believe in spending any ask money to to to prop it up. There's two sets of letterhead joey out for the media. One says American Soccer League and other says America's soccer soccer league. I mean there's even at that late date and of course spoiler alert. It's their last season that late. They they the the powers that be. He could never get on the same page in what they were doing. And it says. And that's why when I say I get upset about lost opportunity. You know the NFL in my view. Insp particularly when the Pennsylvania's donors king the stone has showed them what they could do what they can bring to the table that the NFL was true community involvement the academy's resulting professional teams playing professionally. That was very attractive. I mean Erlich was underfunded but crowds came out Estonians drew. You know there's a model to be followed and again who dropped the ball. They drop the ball. Because it's in instead of convincing other owners to you make that kind of investment you know start there's all the youth teams start growing your own as it were. They don't WanNa do that. Hey We've been winning picking up guys off sandlots. Why do we have to do? ooh that will go down south instead. I'm sure there's a well while expansion fees weren't that big always at Ponzi scheme nature to expansion old old guys been losing money. Start getting some money on the backs of the new guys and and that was a real opportunity for yourself to make itself an attractive alternative alternative to the NFL which itself is dying on the vine with aging foreign players. People don't really have a lot of interesting and American kids not not being given the opportunity to play you know vibrant. ASL might have been the very place for FCC ATL if you remember the SE Seattle was basically try to take Pennsylvania's donors model and apply it out west. It would give them a place to play. It didn't work because again these guys could could just never get out of their own away and it's a shame because And while we're gonNA talk about these. The United States United Soccer League in the second which tried to do what I'm talking about now if the ASL managed to pull off maybe we wouldn't have had you know the the eleventh gap between major major angelique soccer in this country which which again while we can sort of not worry so much about now because mls is thriving for those were more of on period period and we would have just been day. I would've been happy to avoid. Yeah again it's also interesting to that. It seems like a lot of the the latter years of the ASL's existence almost a it just looks in retrospect almost like you had people on different song sheets right. I mean for every you know Detroit Express in the ASL in Nineteen eighty-two drawing thirty three thousand and change for their you know their final title game beating Oklahoma Right Oklahoma City slickers of another new market that to their credit the ASL was looking to see that that soccer over Georgia for example a Carolina lightning modestly successful in their short tenure. There as well yet you also had people kind of reaching for the stars ars. I mean that New York united store at some pogo deeper into that. But you know going to Shay Stadium. I remember vividly. I think it's for some of those games and pretty well publicized sized by the way we're like in the hundreds at Shea Stadium Cavernous Fifty Five thousand seed Shays Stadium so it but it just you know. I'm sure there's another sort of piece of evidence where and having read soccer America during that period of time on a weekly basis you look at the Agathe then you look at this. The attendances and some of them were were woeful in like what's going on here and then some were actually quite surprising and I think some of that was the halo of the NSL albeit Having sort of itself sort of on its way down. But I think it's lost in all of this and you guys you mentioned this in some of your writings on the On the American soccer history site. You've got You know the tendency was near its apex around this period of time the four thousand forty five hundred per per game on average and you know there was clearly something there but it sounds I to me and it looks to me like the. NSL starting to falter. The somewhat crossroads I guess of the ASL with You know not sort of the same song sheet. Plus I guess a bit of sort of macro economic downturn and inflation rates and whatnot Probably all conspiring. And frankly frankly by the way no television by the way for either League which obviously was a part of the economic mix that was starting to become essential essential for any sports endeavor to to succeed and economic mix. The timing is unfortunate because you made reference and I made reference about doc you have people not playing off the same music sheet and by nineteen eighty four The Carolinas and the Oklahoma City's An in the Rochester Flash Either the Russia they you had these. ASL teams bolting. It's like you know we we. We have a vision. You don't we're going to do our own thing we're GONNA do this. American League for the American player. Strict budgets You know strict limits on the number of foreigners can be on the team at any given time. You had You know Bobby Benson who was owner of the Carolina lightning. Which is Dan? Is You know we're pretty in the in the candidate successful saying look. You know. We've kidding ourselves. We're the sport of the two thousands. We've got stop dreaming that we've made that wake up the full stadiums we're ten to fifteen years away and and he and some similarly minded owners decided you know soccer's Walker's got a future but we have to start looking at ten to fifteen year model with slow growth as opposed to doing the NFL's doing as opposed to doing with some of the other folks asocial doing which really was just putting putting anything on the field I if I'm winning great but I'm not really thinking about tomorrow. And that's when you see the The the creation of the United Soccer League in Nineteen eighty-four which has the sections from the NFL almost has Tulsa roughnecks and Tampa at the Bay rowdies defecting from the NSL because the model was that attractive? People realize. Look the throw money at it and see what happens isn't working. We've got got to go with the slow growth model And we need similarly minded people to do it and the US L. had a great opportunity between those American Soccer League successful as franchise th-the between being able to go into a great soccer market like Fort Lord Lauderdale which the strikers were forced to abandon because the NSL was lunging towards companies Indoor League basically and Fort Lauderdale do did not have a suitable facilities so to strike as like the Minnesota or boom here. Here's the Fort Lauderdale Fort Lauderdale Sun featuring most of your favorite strikers players. I got another great opportunity but in in in the continuing story in American soccer at least up until analysts Just great ideas wholly fully funded and poorly executed the US L. is gone You know but a few weeks into its second season. Nineteen eighty five. And that's and and that's the end now literally the end of outdoor soccer so so a couple of things maybe as we sit around home here so around third base sliding into home to completely use a terrible analogy from another sport. The idea though is reserved lost opportunities. I look at it actually from a marketing person right so you know when the the ASL S. L. finally folded in in nineteen after the nineteen eighty-three season. It was Fifty one years right since The the second version version sort of came into into being so. There's a missed opportunity for the fiftieth anniversary. Kind of celebration. There's missed opportunity It seems around some of the newer franchises that were starting to get some attention like the Carolinas etc.. It also seems like there was maybe you can fill in the blanks here too. If I remember number correctly perhaps out of desperation were obviousness. There was sort of this idea that I remember the. ASL was floating to try to do. This is year round enterprise which would incorporate both outdoor and indoor given the rise of the newly successful MSL in the NFL's reconsideration Asian of the sport where instead of having to choose between the outdoor or the overlap of indoor stuff that the ASL was at least thinking on paper that they could maybe create an and integrated league that would accomplish both nineteen seventy nine eighty That was something on paper and the thought was it. Sounds like a good idea. I mean I know the NFL but you know you could do that with purpose. Not Sort of you know the way the NFL it right. I think it's always looking. He added both is a way to Broaden one's footprint and that hey you could see your team year-round but also as a way to have to pay the players more Because you have more revenue opportunity so maybe I can bump up the salaries and not keep losing my best players to the other league But I'm not taking a bath because I'm paying them a little more but I'm also playing two seasons and indeed. That was all supposed to be part of the. US Els mom everyone you know even going back like the full losing the the the the the theme of the time was the American players not good enough because he's not getting enough reps. There's not enough games you know. The college season is ridiculous. You know you play twenty games and like a four week period three days a week whatever. That's no good You know in England. They're playing kids playing forty games. He's here we need to get more opportunities. And so with outdoor and indoor the American player's GonNa get plenty of touches on the ball so that that was the thing But unlike say a the North American soccer who I mean it's Kinda forgotten but in in eighty five. The plan was The four eighty five right indoor season was going to be forty. Some Games in the outdoor seasons GONNA get throttled existing. I mean I I if the NFL survived. I suspect the outdoor would've would've just disappeared Indoor was where the money was at indoor was where the crowds are going. Indoor was where the excitement was and so but the ASL and also the US. So we're still they. They want to export that opportunity as a way to get more revenue but again in keeping with this stated goal of being being the American League for the American player also saw Moore's as a developed now opportunity in any event. It never happened. I mean they talked about it since nineteen eighteen eighty four or five years and never actually changed for wish. Yeah and now I guess we could play sort of parlor game of what if what if the NSL had continued in the ASL maybe because woken up to the fact that it could be A. Don't call it a feeder league but a a part of a bigger sort of ecosystem in which the ASL has its role in the NFL has zits role. What of the ill-fated Almost at least for a period of time chance for the United States to host the World Cup in nineteen eighty six. I believe that never sort of officially happened in their various political and international reasons for that ultimately and and you know what if things like yeah Cable television had come along a little bit faster to perhaps offer a more obvious revenue stream. This is a whole bunch of things that you wonder. I guess maybe I can sort of use as as a prelude to maybe a wrap up question. What is or was the legacy of this? I guess this sort of most modern version of the ASL. Let's call it that the lack of a better term if anything I I'd like to give it some credit for it seems to me. Maybe some you know. A hint of of how a second quarter division could look and or support albeit not very possible I think in the way the construct of MLS and US es L. is today maybe even some credit for taking some chances on some newer and or unproven pro markets. But maybe I'm being charitable. I don't know what do you think I know. I tend to think that what this latter day version of the American soccer they sell to. And to point out if you will I think it's it's it's legacy was that even if it itself never actually followed fru on its ideas it did create the template for what would eventually result in successful professional soccer. I mean the ASL folded after eighty four seasons You know the US L. United Soccer essentially folded as well even though the number to call but you saw in its wake immediately popping up the western soccer alliance which was four teams things for one in Kannada and Doing you know what the ASL said it was going to be doing for like the ten years prior playing American kids largely developed locally. You know in the case of Seattle and Portland with with with the tight affiliation with its youth clubs and he started seeing. Oh you know this American centric grassroots kind of soccer that then took off on the east coast with the third. Asl in eighty eight but again following the western soccer alliance is model Then those two weeks essentially come together to form the American Special Soccer League and and laid the groundwork for analyst but they yeah well there was no mistake franchise fluctuations and things like that to those league the WS say in the third ASL in the combined ats and then ultimately tailing not only show. Does you indicate sorta gave a model for what second division how could operate and what it can do. But also showed the grassroot soccer using hateds using locally grown and developed tornadoes was indeed a viable business model. The Aso never had while they will never have the wherewithal to fully commit to it and find out for myself. That was the case. It had the ideas. Jean Shirt Switz- had the idea really Erlich had the idea. And and and it was right after the Aso died. Thank you had people lining up and finally implementing it in. Perhaps they were able to do it. Because they were unburdened by the history of the I. So I mean you would like to think if the ASL survived it would have taken that followed that path. If the W I say and the thirty s all fall and like the thing well maybe they'd be some advantage to the fact that it's doing it it could also raise his hand and say hey we've always been here we've been here since nineteen thirty. Three heck we can make a claim to having we've been here since nineteen twenty one. History counts for something as opposed to brand new startup sport So I'll give it credit for that. It had lots of good ideas even if they couldn't get out of its own way to actually implement them and I think that's And I think it's still see vestiges of that in the lower tiers of USSL And of course again if you're looking at the academy system while itself I mean. Obviously it wasn't an American invention. I mean really took the idea from Europe. You you know the fact is it was done in. ESL I it was done successfully shame on mls for not picking up on it user but th that's what the deserves it it had the right ideas That maybe other people would have stumbled upon on their own. Maybe not but the second is the ideas were out there so immediately the after it and the NFL's demise someone else's willing to pick up the ball and we had some form of professional soccer in place in the era between the two major league last question do you worry that Because of the rise of MLS MLS and and and it's a relative success right at stability in it said and we can argue the merits of single ownership. And how it's helped or not help the international game and all that kind of stuff or pro rally and a lot of thought of tangential questions. That could be sort of brought up but do you wonder that I mean you Kinda hit it out. As as we began our conversation right there are people that think that pro soccer really started in nineteen eighteen ninety six with mls or or or charitably. The Pele was the beginning of pro soccer in this country. Right and and as you well know and hopefully hopefully most of our audience recognizes. And if you know there's this Internet thing you can kind of look it up for yourself. There's this very very long standing arguably ethnically weakly rooted and very rich history of of the sport of soccer in this country going way way back in the eighteen hundreds and then some do you worry that at the ASL. Maybe as it sort of felt its way through to quote unquote capitalized professional second slash semi. I hear Soccer Locker Kinda I dunno frittered away. Perhaps some of that's history or do you wonder or do you worry about its entire history inclusive inclusive of this period of time being swept away or ignored. I kinda do actually. It's it's it's a problematic question because you know you you want to impress upon people that soccer's always been here. It's not a sport only popped up because you know the participation trophy if you're if everyone plays and our professionalizing now it's always been here and you like to be able to point to people and it's always been here the problem. Is You know the the other lingering trope at the anti-soccer likes to fill out there. Currently it's Oh it's a girl's game and of course the fact that the women win in the men don't doesn't help but prior to that it was always. Oh it's not a game for Americans it's a foreign game and so it's problematic when you want. I mean when you when you try to champion the second. Asl As being a fully professional league. Even if you're willing to look past the fact that it really wasn't but at least it was you know professional and not entirely unsuccessful. I I mean it produced you know it had about Twelve Open Cup winners in nineteen thirty three to seventy one here. I mean there was some good. Soccer is being played in order to do. ooh that you all you do is highly ethnicity. The otherness of soccer that I think certainly on the less spratly DSL and works so hard to get away from so it's really it's really quite a contract and you don't want to ignore a so you don't want anymore the players. I mean you know we want to champion the nineteen Kim fifty team. That upset England could be a great story. And you can't really do that without pointing out that the guy who scored the goal Joe gaetjens playbook cat was leading score and he. ASL that year the guy who assist on the goal Walter Bahr played the nationals. Who won the won the Cup a couple of years earlier with the team was all American but for one player Yeah you don't want to forget the great players of that of that nineteen Thirty three to You know nineteen sixty six year. Don't want to forget the Americans you know. Joe I think the guys who would never get an opportunity and so American born and bred who go to the Okay S. L. and and and and star They ought to be better memory. 'cause they they are among the great American praise in the year that no one talks about. 'cause they play in the League league. No one remembers so but but he got it cuts both ways and it. It's like the Washington redskins. People WanNa you WanNa talk about the Washington. NFL team scene but you think of the way we always coin Washington NFL team. You know I can't talk about how great you know. Fabri Salcedo was and just say he played for Brooklyn and not. Have someone say wait. A book. Hispanic was it's problematic if you WANNA shed the the the ethnic It's not ethnic origin origin. Certainly say there's uncharitably as possible. The ethnic anchor held the sport down from developing in a way that you know the basketball had the chance to say You know in that era. When pro sports were starting to food to to grow so it's tough but historian me says no you can't forget it because of the players you got any end you've got to honor? The players remember the players. But it's but it's problematic because in some ways you shoot yourself in the foot as far as getting the game even water except today I think yeah. I think it's also some asterisks to that could be remembered. Maybe maybe you easily so a major league soccer right so north Charlotte gets their mls franchise in in order right. I mean there are a couple of years there in the eighties. Where the Carolina lighten? We're pretty pretty compelling and maybe even the first season or or two or I know. It was rumored as as being part of the of the mix could actually be could be playing some of their games. Or maybe some other exhibitions in that That Memorial Memorial stadium there whatever the Sacramento spirits and gold maybe if Sacramento Republic. FC or whatever their name is going to be Could also be remembered to. I mean there's lots of little things that that you could actually maybe individually pull back some of that history and maybe remember and bring back the ASL albeit and chunks and pieces that can you you know at some continuity to mls that fits and starts has been done with some of the old NSL teams you know Columbus Magic. God forbid the the crew. Who could you know do a night? That remembers the two years of that franchise and their silver and gold. Exploits in the Clippers stadium. I I don't know maybe I'm just wishing fancy here but You know this this this before there is a fourth American soccer And it's It's it's it's very low-key But it was doing that it had to fill up your fury. It pro fact the atoms it was bringing back to New Jersey Americans and he was trying to assess the take some of those. ASL BRANDS its role as a division foremost Basically it was Interestingly enough a group of proteins were there at the top top of that Academy Pyramid. And I forget the status of that we with the rise of The NASA but there was actually the fourth ASL. Doing what you're saying so we're bringing back those brands although as Fury Nana's any so obviously but in some other cases bring back so brands and and trying to you know we capture some of that nineteen seventy five eighty three history which is not you know I mean the teams came and went. But what Saint Louis Skyhawks Soon Sacramento California. Sunshine Cleveland Cobras. These were finally remembered by the people who Aaron supporting so Yeah I it's it's a shame to throw all that history but it's difficult you can't pretend that the ASL pop up to seventy one you know you. Can't shed the newer Portuguese. He's Ukrainian stitch type ear. 'cause those are the things that dot the champions list and So again it's it's problematic in American soccer this kind of ashamed of its past and at the same time. Can't forget great players. Ed Because you know many times was American players playing for these social clubs so it kind of sucks all right. Thanks Steve as we have opened up the Pandora's box known as the American Soccer League at least the second version of it and at least the one thousand nine hundred seventy s and early nineteen eighties. Last vestiges of it fascinating stuff. Lots more to sort of explore You You New York Apollo Fans Columbus magic fans you Sacramento gold and Sacramento spirits fans. You Carolina lightning fans fans. You know all those by the way all you know should be Perhaps remembered and dug deeply into as you ascend into major league soccer status with your new franchises. Why don't you just up just a thought to know that there is some actual pro soccer history in those in those markets before? MLS makes it's Mary way in to Official notice in your respective markets. But I digress. More about Steve can be found. God where can you not find out more about Steve. You find find out more about him at the Society for American Soccer History of at the closest thing the saber that soccer nerds have in history and data and Stats and all that kind of stuff that you can find out more about them at U s soccer history dot org and you'll see all the all the great stuff that they do to keep the sport memorable memorable memorable memorable memorized. Now what am I taking memorialize. That's the word I'm looking for. It's been a long day but Steve knows what I'm talking about. And he knows what he's talking about for sure. You can follow Steve also on twitter at soccer maven. That Soccer Maven M. A. V. A. N.. Drop either soccer maven and also he's As you probably heard him reference and we've talked to him on a couple of other occasions is a deeply passionate guy in the realm of Of Lacrosse cross history in this country and you can find all his Stuff devoted to that the the website cross-check that C. R. O. S. E. Check could see H. E. C. K. dot com formerly known as retro lax which we talked about under previous episode. and that's a tremendous repository stuff like the old the National Lacrosse League The previous version back in the seventies and and other leagues prior to that and since all kinds of great stuff and you can follow him for his Lacrosse plus things at LAX Maven. Lax and again dropping. All kinds of ways to follow steve it all kinds of ways. Frankly to follow us. Hell if you've got an ASL memory. American Soccer League memory will we'd love to hear it L. Trout Week. If you're out there or this is shared with you this episode we love to hear from you in particular Because we know beyond your Your great years calling fun stuff that we'd like to obsess about like the arena football league for a NBC or even the of course the old major indoor soccer league on the old USA Cable Network with cholera junior one of our previous guests we We certainly know and remember that you got your start pretty much pro wise. It's on the air with the old Newark Apollo in the late Seventies. I remember vividly listening to games that you call. I think for their championship season. Seventy eight on the L. W. m. c. a. m. five seventy in addition to various stations. Long Island so I'll travel if you're listening or anybody else frankly who remembers or has some direct connection into some of the old ASL history. Hey We'd love to hear from you. You Cleveland Cobras. Fans you You Rhode Island Ocean ears fans perhaps Cincinnati comets it spans. Maybe some Indy daredevils folks out there. my all means give so you give us a shout out our email address. It's hello at good seats. Still available DOT com. That's the way to get in contact with us not only for ASL stuff but any stuff for that matter and of course our website if you want to listen to any and all of our old episodes in one hundred hundred and forty some odd now counting and mortar com. That's our website can be faddish. Good seats still available DOT com. That's the place you get all of our our old shows shows you can see all the The great imagery that we've found there from the INTERWEBS and And of course all the links to our various media and books and all the things that people are talking talking about on our show. It's all there for you. Get good seats. Still available DOT COM and of course sign up for email newsletter there and you can also find our our social media feeds and you you just go to those directly. If you want to on twitter. You'll find us at good seats still on instagram. You'll find us at good seats still available and Yeah on facebook. A page devoted to us Somewhere in there to Let's see one last thing we want to say. Thank you to our good pal. Jerry pain for his editing and production reduction skills this week and he spent all of last week as we drop this episode during his day. Job At radio row there during the Super Bowl in Miami so hopefully he's not too hung over from the festivities from from Sunday's game. We don't know what happened because we're recording the days ahead of that game but hopefully for everybody's sake it was Enjoyable to to watch and you didn't snack too heavily and You drove home safely. We hope you drive home safely or if you're listening in the car you don't pull over and veer ear off at any kind of accident. We appreciate your listening to us of course and We don't know we're GONNA be talking about next week but boy I'm sure it'll be exciting and interesting as we always try to do and We thank you tremendously for for giving us a listen and until next week take care.

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