This extra effort of women and crime. Uk edition is presented by acorn tb. This podcast may contain content. That is graphic and disturbing nature listener discretion is advised over a period of two years. Five children would disappear in manchester england and would never be seen by their loved ones again known as the most notorious child murders of their time. The country was shocked when the identity of the two perpetrators was made public. A killer couple was responsible for these brutal murders. A match made between a cruel sadist and to everyone's surprise a young female accomplice. This is episode. Forty three myra hindley story Hi amy again. How doing great to see you today and to be back recording this special. Uk edition of women and crime and loving these uk cases. They're so good aren't they. And you know we've had uk request before. And i've put them on the list. But this was really just a great impetus to like start examining the cases that we wanted to and it's so interesting because their systems so different than ours and we know this because because we taught study abroad class we brought our students with us to the uk and we got to visit prisons and courthouses and police training we did a full comparative course so actually this is a perfect setup for us to talk about the differences before we discuss the case in detail though. Let's take a moment to thank our sponsor of today's special edition episode brought to you by acorn tv acorn. Tv is a streaming service. That's rooted in british television. It has a rich catalogue of exclusive award. Winning series across genres including mysteries dramas comedies. And so much more. Today's the third episode in our special uk addition presented by acorn tv. The myra hindley story now there were a lot of cases to choose from and this was probably the hardest part for me was narrowing them down. Did you have the same problem. yes for sure. Okay so. I chose this case in particular myra hindley because it's one of the most notorious cases and it has been requested by so many of our listeners that you know it was one of the things where i put it on the listen. I had at their over and over again so i thought this is a great opportunity. I also chose this. Because it intersects with my teaching interest which as you know are women in crime in serial offenders. So i feel like this was the one for me amy. Do you know myra hindley. I don't i feel silly saying that since you said it's one of the most notorious yup one of the things that were you and i are really great at is picking cases that maybe you know known or may not be but we don't know them. We're often telling each other a new story. I definitely know the name. I associate the name with something very evil. But that's far as i got right and if you see the pictures which everyone's gonna look at anymore. Look at two. You'll know the picture when you see you go okay. I know there's a famous picture of this to that. You'll know myra hindley was born to a normal working class. Family in nineteen forty to the family dynamic is going to play an interesting role here. I think mars father was gone for the first few years because he was in the military and this was during world war two and so for the first three years of her life. It was just myra and her mother. Her father returned after the war. Unfortunately after he came back he also came back as many people did from the service with a substantial drinking problem and it was a difference namic in the household and then shortly after he returned her sister was born. I mean this is like the baby. Boomer thing and meyer sister was born. Myra was sent to live very close in the neighborhood with her grandmother. They were financially strapped. This was a poor working class neighborhood. I read different accounts of this. You know myra was somewhat somewhat enjoying this. Because she liked living with her grandmother. And because i think she had all the attention over there and i think because she didn't have to share with her sister as much it was a good condition and because she lives so close to home she could keep going back and seeing her family so so she was going back and forth between these. Two homes is my point. Count of her home with her. Her mom and dad were mixed. I read and saw a documentary. That's add there. It was a very loving home. And i have also read though in on multiple in multiple places that her father was tough. He drank a lot that seems to be confirmed and he was abusive. And he encouraged myra to use violence as a solution to problems with others. that came from him Kind of consistently. Her neighborhood while lower working class was tight the type where and this is important where everyone knew their neighbors. And you you trusted people and remember also. This is a different era. This is the nineteen forties myers. Attendance record at school wasn't great but she was very bright and she did well in school when she was there. Kind of like my attendance record. I went to school high school. Myra was also considered pretty fashionable and had sort of an avant-garde. Look one of the things that happened to mirror that was traumatic. In her childhood she had a best friend who died of drowning and this had a very huge impact on her in terms of her behavior in her religious beliefs. I believe it was a male friend and she was about thirteen years old. And i think why this was also traumatic is that she was going to go swimming with him. That day but didn't in. This was a very close friends. So i think there were some guilt associations. So some say that. This was the impetus. This event was like the impetus to her emotional separation from people but at the same time she was forming other connections because she also made an effort here to become involved in religion and she converted to catholicism following this major event fast forward a couple of years at age seventeen myra would become engaged. But that didn't last very long. Myhrl likes the idea of it but found the idea of also traditional life. Boring not very exciting soon after the break up with her fiance she got a job as a typist and job and this is where she would. I meet ian brady. Ian brady had probably what you would view as the opposite childhood. Even if we don't know completely meyer situation. He didn't know his father at all in was born to a single mother who was forced to give him to another family when he was young. Now she still visited him and eventually he would return to live with her. But after many many years but ian was a loner he did not join in with activities by any account he was an odd ball as people described him in also began committing crimes at an early age and by sixteen he had amassed several offenses quite a criminal record. He had served a term of probation already. He had threatened a girlfriend with a knife. He showed serious signs of conduct disorder. Yes don't most. Serial killers have conduct disorder as kids. That's correct because conduct disorder is really just the way. We label antisocial behavior. But when it's in children we call it conduct disorder and advances to adulthood. We call it antisocial. So let me just give you some examples because some people might say what will what is conduct disorder. Look like in children and just so you know taken alone. These behaviors don't necessarily indicate. Your children have conduct disorder but taken together Some of the early signs are certainly physical cruelty to animals and two other children. That's also part of the macdonald triad which we've discussed before you know the triangle of behaviors. That are later to indicate some cereal offending some of the other signs are biting in hitting but serious biting and hitting you know and again not alone. I see you smiling because your kids by in hit. Sorry i know. I know again on. Its own but i know you're thinking But regular biting and hitting theft regular consistent lying these kids also Will often be engaging in acts of arson pretty young so taken together. This is conduct disorder taken alone. This might be just a normal kid. Okay myra was quite enamored with ian. From the first day they met she wrote in her diary frequently about even the smallest things that ian would do such as look at her or e and made a joke today or ian. Was airing an alfred. I took the same age. Myra was a little bit younger than me. And actually so if she was eighteen when she got this job that he was in his early twenties so not a huge age gap but she's still an eighteen year old. Did you have a diary when you were in your teens. I had a diary from when i was ten years old up till today. You still diary. Oh i didn't know that it's not like dear diary. He's so cute anymore. It's more like just like important things like a very quick few lines a day. That's funny do you do it every day. Interesting james's started doing that too. I had a diary when i was about ten eleven. It lasted for like a year. I was like this sucks. It's so fun to read all diaries who quite so far right. We'll she wrote. I mean. I don't know you know you were probably all about who's cute. Who liked to write teenage now. It's like i really wish my kids who go to bed early so our to myself but anyway okay. So i think that the things that myra were writing probably weren't far off for seventeen or eighteen year old girl at the time who's in a diary or eighteen year old woman ian however did not take tomorrow right away or as quickly Some would say this is because ian wasn't really interested in women but eventually the two became a couple seemingly because in was very influential over mirus beliefs and he could influence her world views to become more like his. Myra tried for a while to get his attention. I mean it was definitely a good year. Eventually he asked her out. But i think it was her persistence. That kind of gave in. And i think it's important to note here as i said. I think what ian recognized admira was. She had such admiration for him that he could manipulate or influence advantage of it. You know he had power over her. And i think that that was what was alluring to him. Ian had very distorted political religious and sexual views and he exposed myra two different world views than she had been accustomed to that she had grown up with you know in a strict disciplinarian religious home. He introduced her to sadistic sexual behaviors which they engaged with together. He also influenced her. He denounced religion and so he influenced her views on religion remember. She had been a catholic. He had an obsession with nazi. Germany and montcalm So he was very influenced by hitler and hitler's teachings. I think their first movie might have been the nuremberg trials. That's a bad sign. Somebody's interested in that. You might want to run the other way. These are all bad signs. Actually from ian. And i think what you're gonna find as it gets much worse quickly as they're dating and has they've been spending time together and has he. Can you know see that. He's influencing her he. I asked myra to help him with a robbery which they didn't actually commit. He didn't really ultimately come- into saks. I'm not sure if he wasn't really interested. I think with this was more of a test he was looking to see. Was meyer loyal. And how far would she go for him. And in that regard. Meyer proved very successful very quickly for ian so they skip the robbery and escalated to some of the most serious violent offenses imaginable. Those targeting children. Pauline reade was the first victim of this statistic duo. Pauline was sixteen and on the night of for disappearance. She was all dressed up for a dance that she was supposed to attend with her friends at her school her mom i watched the documentary and her mom described her exact outfit and how she walked her daughter to the end of the street watching her. Go off and seeing her so happy and it was. You know really a sad moment when you heard the description and saw everything and what happened in. This instance is that. Myra borrowed a van and drove it behind. Her brady was following on a motorcycle. And what he was actually doing with scouting for victims when brady saw pauline walking alone down the street getting towards the evening time. He flashed morrow with his motorcycle and that was the signal that he had picked out his victim. And then it was myers. Turn to jump in. And what role was to lure the young girl into the van. And this wasn't really difficult for myra. Because of the small community they lived in my actually new pauline rate so she was easily able to get her into the car and they're like they're kind of peers. Right how old is myra. She's not that old. Yes so that's the interesting part. Because pauline sixteen and i think myra might have been twenty you know. I mean not exactly peers macaque. Yeah close enough in age. It was a bizarre situation though. Because i watch these two documentaries. And they said that. Myra asked her to help with some miniscule task and i'm like okay. What's that miniscule task. Myra said she lost a glove but it was really important. It could pauline help her find it so random. It's a random bizarre thing. I also don't know how important gloves were than bill. Maybe it was expensive but anyway. Pauline essentially agreed pretty quickly to help her. Was pauline on her way to the dancer way home. She was on her way to it. And i think she was meeting her friends. And so i'm imagining that mirus. Can you tell me find something that'll give you a ride. Your friend's house during yeah and again knew each other. She's a female two females. It's it's more innocuous. But what pauline didn't know is that ian brady was going to be following them and would meet up with them. Brady followed them to the remote wilderness of saddleworth more more is a rugged hilly area covered in mossy grass and this unpopulated area. He basically took pauline alone for a while. There is not much description here. Except that myra drove out there. He walked pauline out alone. Myra stayed behind and what we do know. Is that somewhere in the moore's in this area. He sexually assaulted pauline and slashed her throat. And then he called myra over to the scene to help him clean up and drive away from the scene. The description here is basically that myra led the girl in ian took her. Myra goes and waits based on whose account both of their account. This was definitely based on the police account and then myers account. But it's also alleged but not proven that. Myra participated in the sexual assault on pauline as well. That information didn't come 'til much later and that could not be corroborated later on. I'm not sure about this. Ian had the sadistic tendencies already and he had been accustomed to harming people. I think that this was mirus first. Introduction and by the way by all accounts she was actually excited to help him and she was excited to be a part of this not like scared. But i'm not sure on the first go if she would have participated in this so i think i would take this one with a grain of salt this their first victim their next victim a young boy twelve year old. John gilbride now long after quickly. This happened all in a two year period. Which is kind of quick because we're talking about five victims of the end so for serial offenders. Two years five victims is somewhat quick. He was lord by the couple to the car after coming out of a movie to the cinema by himself and with my renton the car again. He was probably not too afraid. This was a different again. A different time tight knit community. People were certainly more trusting. You knew your neighbors. John was then unfortunately There's going to be similar pattern. He was taken out to the moors and led by his death and returned after about a half an hour explaining that he had strangled the boy with a shoelace because his knife broken him. Yeah this is i mean. There's a brutal crimes their next victim the victim number. And myra wasn't didn't take part in that myra did not take. We don't know for sure. I will say that we are going to know for sure. One of the crimes at meyer took pardon. She admittedly freely admitted that she was an accomplished. She planned it. She drove but she would say that she did not take part you separate with the end. Give him his space to do what he was going to do. Their next victim was twelve year. Old keith bennett again. Using the same modus operandi keefe was coaxed in the vehicle. Keith was actually walking the short distance from his mother's house to his grandmother's house in the local neighbourhood. He was taken to the more henley followed behind him this time but she stood as lookout while brady sexually assaulted and then murdered the boy in the moors and they left his body. They always left the bodies there. The next murder would be the fourth one and this would be different. This was murder of ten year old. Lesley ann downey young. Leslie was at a fair when she was lord to their car by the promise of a reward to help this young couple. Carry some bags to their car. They had a couple of bags near her and they dropped to them. They were like food bags and said oh. Would you mind helping us. We'll give you you know something for the fair. And so i mean she's a ten year old girl but in this instance when they got her to the car take straight up to the. Moore's they took leslie to their whole which marks a very substantial change in their pattern at their home. They bound her the gag. addressed her. They photographed her e and strangled her her body cleaned in the tub and they eventually transported her to the moore's the next day and disposed of her. But why this is different. And why this is significant. There's a couple of things first of all taking her to the home means. They're getting more comfortable. they're going straight to the moore's they don't want to be ready to home that once see. They're getting comfortable and that's they're getting more bolder but they're also then getting more reckless because they are taking a big chance and this does happen with people. When they're getting a little more successful they escalate things happen. A little quicker and some people were can perfect their craft but others are going to take more risks. Because they've got away with it a today show is sponsored exclusively by our favourite british streaming service acorn tv and we invite everyone to support acorn. Tv because their support allows us to keep our show free for you all. Here's why we love them. Acorn tv is a commercial free streaming service. That's rooted in british television. It has a rich catalogue of award winning series across genres including mysteries dramas comedies and so much more and acorn. Tv has exclusive premieres and originals. That you won't see anywhere else. Amy right now. I am super excited about law and order uk. I knew you would love that one. I've watched every law and order from the beginning. I've been a fan for years. You've seen several many times. Oh i can recite some of them by heart for all eu law and order fans out there. Dick wolf's long-running us police procedural drama gets a british tweak as the action shifts from new york to london. The irish independent describes the iconic cop and courtroom station just as engrossing as its american counterpart you can stream law and order uk on acorn tv now. Plus you get thousands of hours of new refreshing content on court. Tv for a fraction of the cost compared to most dreaming services at just five ninety nine a month from all of us that women in crime uk we think acorn tv for sponsoring today's show because it sponsors like acorn tv that make what we do possible. Try acorn tv free. For thirty days by going to acorn dot tv and use my promo code. Women that's acorn. A. c. o. r. n. dot tv and use my promo code women w. o. m. e. n. Myra was always the lore. This is similar. we've talked about some cases. between males and females I don't know if you remember when we covered. Karla homolka and paul bernardo at. That's what i was thinking this whole time. You are okay. Yeah i mean. Women are obviously easier to trust especially for vulnerable victims children. It also makes me think of case i covered with. It wasn't a male and partner. But do you remember the melissa. Huckaby case how. Could i forget that. Okay you know. She was easily able to lure her neighbors and sandra cantu into the car because sandra knew her she's a woman she's also a mother so this makes women because of their gender A better lore. They got bolder but then they got even more bold and really i would say they just got careless arrogant and stupid on this. Because it was their last victim that would be their downfall of these. Two serial killers brady had allegedly so ian had allegedly met seventeen year old edward gabe bar. And the implication was that brady had lured him to the house. With the idea of a sexual encounter now brady had been sort of grooming myra as brother-in-law david smith for some time meyer sister. Maureen was married to david smith. They were younger at this point. Ian is in his twenties. So as myra. But david smith was only seventeen and i don't know how older sister maureen was. But smith became enamored with ian brady and with his lifestyle and saw him. You know kind of as a bad ass. You know not knowing. He did not know the extent of brady's you know violent tendencies but he did know that he was you know he engaged in criminal activities. And what brady thought was that. He could recruit smith into his crimes and his lifestyle. But into the whole lifestyle. And so once. Brady had edward evans at the house. And david smith was there as well he murdered evans with a hatchet to his skull from behind after sexually assaulting him he didn't sexually assault him but he murdered him in front of david smith. It's with his way to see a kid could hang. It was yes and essentially what happened to was that he put him in the position of will. Now you're in on this. You know what i mean. And i mean what happened was basically a terrified. David smith took orders and he helped clean up the mess and cover up the body for disposal. But we're there for this one. Oh yeah myers and air cleaning in the kitchen As if though this was not such an abnormal and she was definitely present for this one and she wasn't at all appalled or whatnot. It was it was pretty obvious that she had become accustomed to this but they underestimated david smith because he went home afterwards and he and his wife called the police. He did not want anything to do with murder. This was a step too far for him. He also mentioned a suitcase that the two had filled with incriminating evidence of their crimes in the house. He saw them do it and they removed the suitcase from the house. So now the police are thinking. Okay great we have a witness to something. But they're like what's in this suitcase case. You know if we're going to search the house where we're gonna find if they've moved everything out so while they were executing a search of the house based on this phone call. The police found a ticket for a left luggage station in manchester. Have you ever heard the term before. I don't know if we just don't know the turnabout left luggage is a place where you can leave luggage short term. I yeah i wouldn't know anything either. And so the police got the ticket and they went and retrieved the suitcases when they went through the suitcase. They found everything to help them. Identify what myra and ian had done and who their victims were. Here's where i said member leslie. Ann would be different because they took all those photographs of her in their home so they found the photographs of her. And what's even worse. Amy is found a tape that e n and my remained recording her. It was so upsetting that most of the officers cried when they were listening to it. Apparently lesley cried out from her mother and prayed to god to help her on this. Sixteen minute tape. And here's what else it showed. Though then later was involved. Not only was she involved but she sadistic too and she enjoyed it. She's cruel and it shows it clearly that it's not just ian and she's the subdued one. She was an equal participant here. so that's why she was involved in the absolutely yes. She was involved. Police were also to match fingerprints or photographs. Tamara in ian from the suitcases. The photographs also helped because they had photographs at different parts in the moors and the police were like. They're taking photographs near their gravesites. So it was. They were able to help with locating and retrieving some of the victims. There were a lot of photos and they they start for miles and miles. You have to understand. The the land is very difficult and on one of the searches. They just didn't find anything you know for a long time. And then an officer went out to like relieve himself and wound up coming across a bone and when it was fully prodded it was determined to be small girl. It turned out to be leslie. So that's how they found her. Well now we're moving to you. Know ian and myra are arrested. And they go to trial when they went to trial and tried to protect myra he actually wrote to her. Giving her ideas for how to distance herself from the crimes but myra was more resolute that she and ian were both innocent so she was loyal to him prior to trial as well. This is a change to normally. What happens is someone turns on the other one. They did not turn each other. She refused to blame in to save herself and ian wouldn't turn either until much later. That is unfortunately. Her strategy failed in fact. Had she listened to him. I think she might have had a very different outcome. We've seen this happen before. Just talking about case in point karla homolka and paul bernardo carlos struck a deal she cooperated and she got twelve years whereas bernardo got life. He's up for pearl that he'll never get out. There's also a couple that i thought of though Craig titus kelly ryan have you ever heard of them. They murdered their assistant. Melissa james i remember this They were both involved and he wound up with something like twenty to fifty years but she got paroled. Twelve years again for turning on him for myra this likely have proven successful strategy in terms of her sentence because these two were both found guilty and was ultimately charged with the murders of lesley. Ann downey john gilbride and edward edmonds and he was found guilty for all and received three life sentences for his crimes. Myra was charged with lesley ann. Downey and edward ends and to being an accessory to the murder of john gilbride and she received two life. Sentences in prison are if you're going to get into this. But why would they charge her with murder. They had evidence as you said that she was an accomplice with the she was charged with murder for two of the cases for leslie and they had the tape and for edward edmonds. Because they had david smith testifying that myra helped gotcha For john gilbride. I suspect they didn't have enough proof for them. One at that time after this trial myra had maintained her innocence for many years. She cleaned the tape. She said that it was all and basically what she said was that she was a victim of him. So she's turning on him now because he said at first. She said they were both innocent. Yeah okay she did turn on him. It took years and what she said. Was that yeah. He was the mastermind. I was under his control. I was his victim like other people were several years later. She finally confessed. And at this point she really had no other options to get out of prison. She was eligible for parole to certain point and maintaining her innocence was not gonna work for her and she realized it and she realized that no one believes it anymore so she began to talk about. This took twenty years. Just say you know mind you but she began to talk about her role in the murders and offered to help the police because she was hoping it would get her parole. She was hoping that it was in response as well to keep bennett. Remember one of the victims. Bennett's mother wrote to myra pleading with her to please help. We can't find his body. All i wanted her his remains. I think this did provide somewhat of an impetus from irish. She might have had some type of feelings. But i think she also realized that this was an opportunity for her to work with the police. Myra had been a model inmate all those years. Mind you for twenty years. And she had been advocating for her own release very publicly and so. This was another way. She could try to basically secure parole. And you still have these two missing victims. You still had pauline and keith. Who had never been recovered. Their families wanted their remains. And so did the police brady would also talk to the police. But it was different so ian. Talk to the police. But he'd only discuss two of the murders. Pauline and keith. Ian brady was extremely difficult though. He would not allow the police to take notes when he came in. They said that he always had to be in control dictating the course of actions that they took how they did it but brady wasn't able to help them find the remains. It was long after. And myra had trouble to. This was monday. Twenty years the terrain had changed. They couldn't remember exactly where anything was regarding ian. There was dr alan keatley. A college tutor from the west midlands befriended brady and asked him what his motivation was for targeting. These children brady answered existential exercises in other words testing his theory that he was free to live as he liked and seeing how far he can push it. Preoccupations were lowering me to take the path of pure in which the will to dare all and suffer. The consequences was becoming all important and solution. Would it really is is basically saying. Because i wanted to. I wanted to do way of saying that. I wanted to do it. I wanted to see how far i could go. And because you know you people have a boring life. But i'm doing exactly what i wanted to do. Brady said the morons out. There are the ones who are mad. People who live conventional dull boring. Life's so his was anything but conventional and he was pushing the boundaries. He also said myra was surprisingly in tune with me from the very beginning. I was never conscious of having to exert myself to coarser into accepting my belief in relativist morality. She was as ruthless. As i was. So he's now throwing her under the bus a little bit. Yeah no he's definitely is the didn't blame her and say she did certain things that he did but he said she was. She accepted this. She chose mister nice girl. Brady was also diagnosed as being chronically psychotic later on in life. So maybe you're right about the delusions suffering from paranoid schizophrenia. Which was marked by perceptual disturbances. Delusional ideas disorganized thaw in speech. This diagnosis came in nineteen eighty-five and he went on a very long hunger strike and had to be force fed from two. So what happened is that they didn't. The police didn't have any luck with him. But the police did have more luck with myra helpful. She was able to locate the gravesite of pauline. So the families and the and the police were able to get pauline remains back and brady meanwhile goes on to die in prison after being bedridden for several years at the age of seventy-nine from emphysema. Myra died in prison at age. Sixty after serious respiratory failure. They did not ever find keith. Bennett's body however after brady's death he left to lock suitcases for his lawyer to keep the police bennett's family have hoped there be way like clues to keith whereabouts in these suitcases but to date they've not been able to gain access to the documents in the suitcases. Very recently. there was talk of home secretary. Pretty patel preteen patel to bring a new police crime sentencing in court spell which would force the killers lawyer solicitor to grant police access to those briefcases. That's probably the last hope for finding the remains of this young boy. All right amy. I'm gonna ask you what your thoughts are on. Ian and brady who i think is more straightforward. You mean. how can we explain ends behavior. Sure the fact that he had conduct disorder that really planes. That all right. He had antisocial tendencies from a young age. Yeah and i don't. I don't think you need much more other than you know that you said he had a tough upbringing. I can't remember now. Yeah no yeah. It was an awful childhood early conduct disorder later antisocial behavior. I would also say though He had a preference for children. I believe and i think his preference for children was around ten to twelve some of his were victims of opportunity. But i think that's the age range is a pedophile a sadistic pedophile. Yeah it was a sadistic interesting because you know you have sexual offender versus sexual predator which is different. The predator are more dangerous as they're not seeking like a pedophile seeks to establish a relationship with the people in the age group so he wasn't seeking to establish which makes him a clear predator. He's the most dangerous sign. So i think it's fair assessment to say he he developed into full blown psychopathy. Now how about myra. There's a couple of big questions here. I mean one of them is. How do we explain. Her behavior would have become a killer if she never met ian. Was she a sadistic sexual killer. If she didn't carry out the killing but she enjoyed it. Is she a pleaser. She a psychopath so there are a lot of questions here. What what would be your opinion. I mean she's clearly sadistic whether or not. She participated in any of the crimes like just knowing they were happening. And being that accomplice clearly sadistic i think definitely sadistic tendencies. How do you explain it. Is there any criminological theory. That comes to your mind. Giving the background that i told you about her as well. I mean social definitely social learning. She was learning from in. She was learning from two people l. Her father's violence gas well. I believe you mentioned that. Her father taught her the way to solve. Problems is too violent. Obviously if you you know you look at where the most influenced by those closest. That was her father teaching her. This is the way we handle things and then she meets this man who she clearly enamored by and he's violent so it's just it's also reinforced differential reinforcement to right. It's reinforcing that violence gets you what you want. Because they didn't get caught right away. Each time they got away with it that reinforces the fact that oh this is working. So we're going to do it again. Think definitely social learning which obviously differential association and differential reinforcement are under social learning. But it's just the idea that she was learning these behaviors from people around. I agree learning theory. It's hard to evaluate female psychopathy as well because there aren't any solid measures or at least the pc l. r. and other diagnostic tools. Were not originally intended for women and the little research on female psychopathy shows that there are similarities between male and female psychopaths. But they're different also in that women don't have the same criminal behaviors. They don't tend to show the outward aggression. you think she was a psychopath. I think maybe yeah. No i do think she was their emotional feelings. Also differ. they tend to be more anxious their differences between males and females. But when i look at the shared characteristics the lack of empathy the pension for manipulation. Lying need for stimulation and boredom. I think myra does probably fit in there. I agree though that she also probably socialized in some ways into vilocci. I'm sure she had a personality disorder and there too. Well i if if if she's antisocial i mean if we're talking about that is the personality disorder and psychopathy isn't psychopathy is them most extreme form. But i'm saying you could be antisocial without being psychopathic. Yes you can have antisocial traits without being. That's what i'm saying so she. I think she might be antisocial. I don't know if she escalates. Psychopathy go i with four idea psychopathy. I think so. But i couldn't be positive but beyond beyond criminal logically. There's the notoriety of myra. So why the notoriety i. She's a woman and for that she's more reviled than ian Woman who committed sexual acts and murder against children thus violating the gender role especially of the nineteen sixties of the housewife motherly woman. There's also the fact that just one year before their trial. Britain eliminated the death penalty and so people were up in because they they just say these are the cases that deserve yes and it was just like god if we'd just held onto it for another year there's also the relation to rosemary west. Have you heard of her. Of course yes okay. So she's also a very notorious serial killer And the fact that the incarceration of these two women overlapped now rosemary. West's was much later. She was in the nineteen nineties. But the comparisons made between them and the supposed- relationship they briefly shared in prison really yes. They both had experiences with females. Later on which happens in prison but so it became a sanguine when the two of them kinda so they were romantically involved rumored that they were briefly. Romantically involved cannot so interesting but they also shared the same. They were both sadistic child. Serial killers who killed with their partners and whose crimes involve violence and both very notorious cases in the the only difference and it said that myrow seemed to look down on west because west killed some of her own children. And myra is rumored to have felt superior. One of the reasons are the legacy and reputation of myra hindley lives on and fifty five years later. She is still dubbed the most evil woman in britain. And we just want to say a big again to acorn tv. For giving us the opportunity to bring you additional four episodes. Don't forget to try your thirty days free at. Www dot acorn tv when you use promo code women thanks again. Everyone for listening. And we'll catch you next time on women in crime. Women in crime is written and hosted by megan sacks and amy schlossberg our producer and editor is james. Varga music composition is by desert media. If you enjoyed the show please remember to subscribe and leave a review. You can also support the show while gaining access to add free episodes exclusive. ama's and other bonus content for a small monthly contribution for patriot for more information visit patriotic dot com slash women and cry Sources for today's episode include documentary the moors murders the new york times the documentary the horrible crimes of myra henley the journal of personality disorders psychology. 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