Remembering William Goldman With Brian Koppelman, Mike Lupica, Sean Fennessey, and Wesley Morris | The Bill Simmons Podcast (Ep. 445)


Today's very special edition of the Bill Simmons podcast on the ringer podcast network is brought to you as always by ZipRecruiter. You know, it's not smart if you love movies and didn't read William Goldman's books adventures in the screen trade more adventures in the screen trade in which landed I tell you what else is in smart job sites that overwhelm you. Tons of the wrong resumes. Luckily, there's a smart way ZipRecruiter dot com slash B. S? They find people at the rights goes for your job. They actively invite them to apply. He get qualified candidates fast. Which is why it's rated number one by employers in the US based on trust pilot rating of hiring sites with at least a thousand reviews right now. My listeners can try ZipRecruiter for free at ZipRecruiter dot com slash B. S? Ziprecruiter, the smartest way to hire. Meanwhile, seek his the best after buying and selling tickets to sporting events, concerts and more great for the holidays. Lattice stuff going on right now for twenty dollars off your first seatgeek purchase on any gamer sporting event us. Use promo code B S download the ski gap or go right to seek a dot com. Or also brought to you by the ringer dot com. Which continues to crank out a bunch of great pieces. But the NBA the NFL pop culture, you name it tack lack crazy Facebook stuff happening right now, we're covering all of it were also on the ringer podcast that worked the ringer NFL show in the ringer NBA show are being updated constantly one shining podcast heating up now, the college basketball's going, and and all of our great pop culture stuff, including the big picture, which is are relatively new movie contests the spinoff from channel thirty three. Hosted by shannen fantasy named after Wayne Goldman is that was one of one of on titles for some of the stuff. He did. And we decided name at the big picture in. There you go. We're gonna talk about Bill Goldman for a really long time. Here is guy that that mental at to me, obviously, I'll explain after we a- we get the program. All right. So this is a special holiday we podcast. No friend, Bill Goldman died last week and. I thought we call some people talk about we've been call make Luca who was probably his best friend who's the legendary New York sports writer. They wrote a book together, and he had a lot of meals on a lot of them. We're gonna talk to Brian Koppelman who was considered Goldman a mentor and was guy who introduced them to me or talk to whizzing Morris. Who's in my opinion, the best movie critic right now and a lunch that we had with Goldman once upon a time way back when? So my history with Goldman with see his book came out in eighty three the the movie book, and then wait till next year came out in the way to eighty somewhere around. Then I started reading them. And he also had the New York magazine he wrote about you heard about movies who you'd right in Oscars preview, and they knew right an Oscars recap. And I just was enchanted, by the way, he wrote about stuff because it felt like, you know, he felt like he's my friend. He had a way of writing about things that just you just kinda grasp onto and you just felt like this. This guy could be my buddy, I could go to dinner with this guy and talk them, and it had a big impact on in. If you read if you read wait till next year, he writes, a chapter about Dwight Gooden about Dwight good in went down with cocaine, and we're gonna talk about it when we talked to Luca. But the whole chapter is basically it was had a huge impact on how I want to read a sports com. Because at the time, you know, everybody was writing a sports com. Certain way. And you'd go in the locker rooms and your port them. And it was just you know, there there was a professionalism to it. But the fan didn't really feel like it was being represented in the right ways. And I was felt like I look at somebody like Peter gammons and the passion that he had racist Gerald Leigh montville, the guys that were in the Boston Globe that had a touch of that Bob Ryan, especially with the way he wrote about basketball and the Celtics like he knew he loved basketball, but he was also covering it. And they would just certain people like that that loop. Go is like that to talk to when hued right in the eighties for the daily news. Like I felt like he was a fan like he actually gave a crap and that balance and trying to figure out what that balance is between being detached. But also caring about what you write about as always been a tough on with sports writing over the years Goldman in wait till next year. He writes, the fan notes, and he's just. Basically a crazed fan in the way. He wrote about it. I just never seen anything like it. And it was always in my head from the time. I read that book to win outta calm and college for four years, and and then when I tried to do afterwards when I wrote a wrote d- my own website for four years the Boston sports guy. And then eventually when I landed a page too. But it was basically that same blueprint so between that and all the great movie stuff. He wrote is absolutely the most influential writer that that I had I, you know, I think when people you end up with a style or perspective and its shaped by a bunch of different people. Whether you're a writer musician, or whatever you are you're in that unit pieces of all the people that influenced you when you're kinda trying to figure out what to do. I think a radio host is like that TV host whoever. And so for me, you know, I. There's a bunch of different writers at influence, what might takes were on things, but he had the base influence of any of them. So I got to know him. The mid two thousands, which I I guess we're gonna talk about Koppelman later on, but we just became friends and to to be friends with somebody who you know, was a true hero. But who also was, you know, just a super generous guy who was kind of like, the the the closest thing I had to a Yoda and somebody that he could just always call and shoot the shit with sports movies and. Just just one of a kind. So we're gonna talk about him with a with loop gun with Koppelman and with Wesleyan, then I'm gonna place a couple podcasts that I did pieces of them from he came on my old podcast ESPN twice in two thousand eleven and two thousand fourteen so we're gonna finish with that. But in the meantime, I really hope you read the the the books that, you know, at least try one of the books if you if you like if you like reading about sports movies. I would try one of the books. I think it's worth it. He was one of a kind. He had a great life. He lived till he was eighty seven and saw a lot of great things did a lot of great things. And I think my favorite story, which is comes up in the two thousand eleven podcasts. He won the Oscar in nineteen seventy for Bush cast in the Sundance kid. The Oscar was the day. The Oscars were the day after game seven against. Baltimore that the Knicks had to advance to Baltimore to go the next round. And he loved that next to him, and it was really hard to get from New York to LA in nineteen seventy like, I I don't even know. I don't know what the direct flight situation. Was he explains on the podcast? So basically at a choice if you wanted to go to L A to go the night before us, he risks not even get into the Oscars and time, and he just skipped it and he went to game seven of the Dick's. He went to Nick's boats game seven the Knicks won. And he won the Oscar the next day for this movie that you know, he had spent a couple of years writing who put basically his whole career in the hands of this movie and it won. He won the Oscar for best screenplay any wasn't there. Because he picked the Knicks. I don't know if there's any short short version of a story that could explain somebody better that the guy was great enough to win it. Oscar Anne loves sports so much that he would rather bend at the. Next game. So he was. Is an awesome guy. So you'll you'll hear over the next two plus hours, you'll you'll hear why I up Meg Luca areas. All right. Mike Luca is on the line. He wrote one of the great sports books of all time waits on next year, which I think came out in eighty seven eighty eight somewhere in that range about a year in New York sports, use a friend of Bill Goldman for forty plus years. We knew this day was coming. We just we were hoping it wasn't going to be until about two thousand forty five. Whatever the last seventy two hours been like for you. Well, first of all Bill, thanks for having me on thanks for wanting to do this the actually the decline from the end of summer until now the last month has been pretty dramatic. And I was out on a book tour last week. And I was talking to his love his unburden 'cause I would call every day to find out how he was doing. And she said, well when the soonest you can be here, and I had a like a one night gap. I was in Washington in the morning, and I was going to be in Boston the next day, and I took the shuttle up and and sat with Bill last Monday. Afternoon. And I I it Bill at that point. I couldn't believe he was still alive, and it just looked nothing like Billy. But there were still up moments where somebody say something and just he people his left hand to get the finger. So we knew we don't Bill. I our remember him for lotteries ins. But the thing that I think I liked about in the most was how much she loved the Knicks. He will he was more passionate and more life or death with them than anyone I knew in my entire life. He just he he really took it personally. And if physically pained him when they sucked what were the last twenty years for him. Like, oh my God. It was it was like he was trapped in an abusive relationship. I've been to I've been debating I'm going to be one of the speakers at the memorial service. I've been debating whether to look out into the audience at say, the Knicks did this. Okay. But you know, because you know, that, you know, this to the nineties it was okay? I mean, they didn't win a championship in the nineties, but those is close to the glory years as the blurry, here's Ben. And you know, and then it just all turns to shit. I. I was just saying Bill before we started that I I hadn't picked up an open wait till next year for a while which I do from time to time. But but here's build answering the question for you, Mr Simmons. Okay. Yeah. So why do I go? He says wait till next year if Adelie opened near my apartment that had food the gave me heartburn. What I eat there for he wants time here. The Knicks gave me heartburn. If Howard the duck was playing at my local movie theater. What I go into the year knowing the thing turned me into a lesser human being. And then he says I'm a lot lesser after Knicks game. Oh, no it's been hideous. Because, you know, you know, him, and I know him that which his winter that which is winter entertainment. He he loved the experience even when they were bad. He loved the experience of being in the garden and people don't know Bill sat under the basket for forty years. He was a friend of butchers, Bradley, and oh, no. This was so cruel that someone who loved them as much as he loved them had had to go through an Arabic has been biblical in its awfulness. I mean, they have they have one one you can't process it they won one playoff series since two thousand. It's a game than anybody in the Brecon sport. And guess who is their forty one times a year the guy who called himself little Billie Goldman of Highland Park. Illinois, yet, wasn't it. It was fifty years. Wasn't that thought it was back to like nineteen sixty eight. Oh, yeah. No. I I don't have any actually got the gut the behind the bat. Yeah. Because he was there when the Carmelo fight happened in oh six it was like Ray day almost like crashed into him. Right. I always liked it him. There's this generation of New York sports fans who were old enough to remember when the Knicks were bad. And then when they became good with the Willis teams and revered those teams, and it was like basketball the way it should be played. They finally took the torch from the Celtics, and they just kept waiting for that to come back. And now we're talking forty five years, but it was almost his generation, which you know, obviously, people are starting to die off from there. But that age from like, I'm going to say sixty five to ninety is one of the most tortured fan bases. We have right, and he stayed with them, and he stayed with them. And then he got rewarded with the Patrick teams that went to the finals twice in the ninety. And and, you know, Bill, you know, that in those years, even though they never won and even know Tories Yankees came along in the second part of the decade. Nobody in town felt the Yankee season started. Well, the Knicks season ended they would that, you know, they had recaptured that that, you know, everybody talks about Trump's base now somehow against all odds, there's still a Nick base. I I don't I don't quite understand it anymore, but it held and so, you know, Billy Goldman had to think of that. But okay wh-. Okay. We're going to be good. And then Patrick Patrick went away. And he took the next with him. So the book he wrote what was it was ADA? Right. It was about the eighty cents off season ear. We wrote about it came out in eighty two the year. We wrote about with nineteen eighty-seven, Ryan, New York sports, and the Knicks were horrible. If that point match, we're still good. They were a big part of our story. 'cause that would that Dwight Gooden got suspended for on opening day. And and so and the the idea was pretty, you know, well, you know, you've been way to kind of this book for for forever. He was an all time. Classic. Well, I think it's more could they came to me. But but. It was it was a simple setup one year in New York sports seen through the eyes of a crazed fan and the eyes of account and that was that and then a whole bunch of shit happened. And so it became a way more interesting year, and now with your help all this time later, it's become kind of a cult book. Well, a lot of people, you know, without whatever my style and up becoming there were a couple writers in the eighties. Who I felt like not only did they read about sports, but they were kind of like, I could have been their friend. You know, and it was like Ray FitzGerald was like that. I think Leigh montville was like that you were like that in the eighties, and then Goldman comes in in this book. And it was like my dad was writing for the book like who is this kind of the craziest fan of ever met. And he just he threw away all the conventions of supposed to at least be balanced or biased a little bit here and went all in on the fan side. And he wrote this piece it's it's in the first like sixty pages of the book. But. Doc good and got suspended for coke. And you wrote the reporter version of it. And then he wrote the fan version, and he laid out this whole thing about, you know, the greatest athletes he'd ever seen in how that pyramid is. And how the the levels rise until you get to this last level and how good and it kinda reached that level for just a little bit. But now is gone. And now he ruined it. And he couldn't trust them again. And it leads to this whole story about Bronco gerski. And how he went to this game when Bronco nurse key was washed up and was like the seven string running back on the on the bears, but someone came in and won this game. And it's it's basically like the future of internet sports writing this one piece because he's writing from him from the fan's perspective. But with a ton of passion, and it's just different and in really stands out. And if you read it now, you're like, oh, yeah. That that that feels familiar to stuff I've read the last twenty years, but in nineteen eighty seven one thousand nine hundred eighty. It was added nowhere. There's no parallel to it. It was so you're you're one hundred percent, right. And and the girl ski for anybody who Bill Goldman it. It was this mythic figure in his life. But that I can't tell you how many times I heard him talk about that particular game one Christmas. I like searched all over and got him a framed picture of Nagorski, which was not as easy thing to do as you might think. But here's fandom you're a hundred percent, right. His fandom was pure. It was angry it was profane. But it was incredibly pure, and I found it out. I think we've talked about this. I wrote about it in the piece I wrote about him for the Boston Globe. We met on an outside court at Wimbledon in one thousand nine hundred seventy eight he had a flat in London. Bush was one of his best friends, and they were at Wimbledon one day and on the outside. I don't know if you've ever been but on the court in the early rounds, you know, what it's like, you just you get stuck. In those walkways. But nobody can see anything on the side. Cords tip. David butcher could the everything 'cause he's just tearing over the top of everybody, and he sees me. And I seen any brings out Bill. Okay. And and it's almost like Dave starts to give me bills resume as he's introducing them. And I come up, and I said, Dave, I know who this is. Okay. And I this was temple of goal Bill Goldman. It was boys and girls together. It was marathon is all that stuff. And I start babbling, and it's like an out of body experience. Then I'm actually meeting him. But Bill all he wanted to do was talk about sports. Yeah. And that day he said you have the best job in the world. And I didn't know that. They're put Bill I didn't until I met him. I didn't know that. There was decide to. Yeah. Well, you know, there's the same theme in his movie writing and in his in his sports writing. And then just just when you had lunch with them or dinner with them. He loved he loved greatness. He loves stars. He was. Saw any and it didn't. He would always talk about like brand. No is the best. He ever saw Broadway. You know will enjoy them when the two best he ever saw person. And whoever the biggest movie actor was at the time. Like, the degrees of how they could just come in the screen that was like his his his biggest obsession, and he was always like when when I got to know him, which was the mid to thousands. He was really fascinated by LeBron. And when they're LeBron was going to reach that. And it was LeBron versus Jordan. But from a different aspect. He was just like is he gonna reach the point where I'm going to be at MSG watching him the same way I felt like when I saw Brando on Broadway's he can be that good. And he just looked at differently. And I I was that was one of the things I was found the most interesting about him, and you Bill from all your lunches and dinners with him. You know, when we would get into the discussion of the greatest and he he loved watching Jordan and later on. Luck will was his guy. Yeah. We'll we'll head. When when I could not win a debate with him that Michael Jordan or anybody was greater basketball player, the Wilt Chamberlain had been he he he he he was he loved willed. I again, he loved that the spectacle of will that and and he's right about one thing. Maybe American sports has never produced. Anybody quite like will Chamberlain a right? And and but don't you think now because I've I've made this comparison before I don't know if we've ever talked about this before there's a will like quality to LeBron even though he's not as big as well. Okay. That that a lot of people still don't love LeBron even though he you know, what happened in Cleveland the second time around. But I think there was something about wilt that kind of flawed genius that drew Bill to him. And then drew him to LeBron later on. Yeah. They have the same kind of physical. Overpowering. You catch them on the Ray? And it just feels like they're just running through the other guys. And I and I think you know, that was one of the big arguments. We would have was well versus Russell because I was always amazed that he didn't that he wasn't on Russell side. But the Russell versus will thing, and it was in congress to all the other things he cared about in sports. But he was just kind of kind of blown away by Wiltz physicality, and he signed in person, I didn't so, but he was just like look will was the grazed athlete who ever played basketball till Jordan. And it was like when you saw him in person. There was just nothing like him. So he was always approaching from that angle. I was always looking at it like, whoa, everyone from that era would rather put Russell. So that has to mean, suddenly, there was a great argument. Hey, I told one of his favorites. I told him what became one of his favorite stories about wilt, and I knew wilt in his later years. I'd have you know, I didn't see him play in person, right? Like that. And I flew out to LA one time to do an Esquire pace on wilt. So I got to go to the house. Okay. Which if you were kid growing up where we grow up in America will Chamberlain house the BelAir house. Yeah. That was just for sale. And there's still there all these photos of a and they kept it intact. It's amazing. I can't believe you went to it. I got I got he gave me the full tour. Okay. And the front door which was like the front door to a cathedral. It was that big. And then he took me into the master bedroom with a bed Bill. It looked like you could land Air Force One. Okay. What's happening? But finally, we come to a room that it's all waterbed and all mirrors all on merit, okay? And outside there's a little plaque. That says the do it wrote. Wow. Little Mike Lupu of Bishop girton high school, national Hampshire stupidly looked up at him and said. Why do you call it? The do it round now. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Just look the minute. It just gotta be all your little little, man. That a serious question. She'll Bill Bill couldn't believe Bill. Goldman did I had actually gone to the house? So that gave me like even more street cred as a sports guy with Goldman, you know, one of the great things about his writing. I started reading him the New York magazine column that he had when you would write about movies, which I think was like somewhere around the late eighties. And I was right around the time. I read the book you did with him. And then I read the adventures in the screen trade. And and then I read the season, which was read people still think it's probably the greatest book about Broadway ever written on my shelf. Yeah. Bill, you know, if you read it, it, it's just you can see everything that adventures in the screen trade. It's the best book ever about Broadway. I think the thing that kept jumping out with him. And was a really good lesson for me as a writer was he he went all in on whatever he thought and. And he tried to do a fairly us if he was very critical. He explained all the reasons for it. He tried not to be vicious about it. But was just like this is how I feel. I'm not holding back. I feel this way about this actor this movie. I mean, one of the legendary thinks he wrote was he just annihilated saving private Ryan in the late nineties. Oh God and Nikki costume the account. I swear to God it costs them best picture that year where to God. He did. He and you read it, and you're like, these are some great points. Like, he he's he's really fired up for some reason. But it is kind of the best possible version of the internet take that as now we've were on twenty plus years of, but he basically just picks apart the movie and after you're done with it. You're like, oh, yeah. This this movie can't win the Oscar Anne ruined it. But I was always amazed that he was able to keep that edge as he became this really successful screenwriter who was by nineteen seventy six was considered the greater. Screenwriter ever lived. But still was able to keep that edge. How did he keep the edge? I you know, what I here's your right? You know, there was a great definition of of acting wanted May- probably half apocryphal attributed to Spencer, Tracy said, you know, I walk in. I try not to bump into furniture. I plant my feet, and I tell the truth that was Billy Goldman it. 'cause you know, he was a sweet man he was banned. But but I mean, you go back to the season read what he wrote about Clive Barnes, the theater critic of right or times. He just dropped a safe on them. And but he if if he thought he was being honest, he didn't he never confused. He never made the distinction between meanness and honesty, if he was telling the truth about something whether it's about the Knicks or a movie or Stephen spills Spielberg or sports, whoever he was writing about at the time. He remembering the season, he wasn't very nice to might nipples. The the young Knight Nichols. And so it was always fascinating to me that to listen to him just talk about the movies in particular because he had no filter, as you know, you know, he was legendarily profane will freer who directed misery on Broadway three years ago said that they would try to imitate how he swore and the creative places that he would put buck before an F worth and nobody nobody could possibly duplicate. I the joke in our family because my kids grew up with Bill is that he he taught my four children how to swear. Oh, wow. That's great yet. He he he also the way he wrote about stars and pick them apart. And did it in a way that I don't feel like anybody has ever done it before because he worked with them. And he knew how vain they were any knew how much trouble they could be a movie. Some of the stuff you wrote about Redford and on the president's men who Redford tried to get his revenge forty years later with the history of the whole thing, which then immediately got the bunked, but the stuff you're about that or Michael Douglas deciding that he was going to be the lead in the ghost in the darkness and Goldman Goldman China throw his body in front of it. But Michael Douglas. He couldn't resist being the lead. And he just was miscast. But I I've never read anybody. Kind of not be critical stardom, but just kind of expose it for what it is in. How can go wrong in so many ways, right? Hey, remember, the line in adventures in the screen trade, and I'm paraphrasing here he said stars or exactly the same as the rest of us to get up in the morning. They put their clothes on that come at the end of the night to take the close up to get into bed. The only difference is in between. Nobody ever says. No to them, the greatest it's like, the greatest definition of stardom I've ever heard, and he was always steadfast in this. I would say who had the best big stars you ever worked with. And he said Numan and Clint Eastwood he never had a bad word to say about either one of them, he rank and with no men and later on when he did absolute power he'd loved working with Clint Eastwood, and he hated Dustin Hoffman because on marathon man, Hoffman tortured Laurence Olivier who is you know, kind of starting to fail a little bit any insisted on additioning for rehearsing for an hour with the live. VA standing, and he could see how much pain alleviate was in. But kept the going as some sort of competitive one up manship and Goldman was just out. Skewered Hoffman for the rest of eternity in anything. He wrote because of that one one moment, so it was pretty funny. How he could hold grudges. Now, you know that there's there's a whole generation of Americans because of that movie that he ruined going to the dentist alma guys at its. It's it it showed you the brilliant, by the way that book marathon, man, I I'm constantly going off tangent. Because this guy was my writing hero. That's a perfect thriller yet as good as the movie was from the opening scene a car game a cart chicken between an old Jewish guy in an old German guy on the upper east side. And you thinking what the hell is going on here? Okay. And not knowing that it was going to set up the rest of the book, but the beauty of Bill Goma was that without any, you know, guns or knives or anything a dentist drill became the greatest weapon of mass destruction. Ever when Olympia gets Hoffman in the chair and keeps asking him. Is it safe? All my God. Oh my God. That was such a thrill for him. Because Livia was like one of the greatest the I think he said he was him and Brando or the where the pantheon for him for for actors, and then he also loved ROY Scheider. I remember we went to lunch wins. And we talked about ROY Scheider for like an hour about Ray shiners career in why he wasn't a bigger star than you was and how he compared to the other guys, and what role could have pushed him to 'nother. You know? It's just that. When you when you had meals on them. That's it was almost like doing podcast all the time. You're just going these tangents and all of a sudden you're talking about Russia shatter for an hour is foods coming and I mean, how many meals did you have with him over the years? Like, I I don't know if it was it was certainly hundreds. And I'm so glad you bring up ROY Scheider Bill. Roy Scheider really lucky enough to get to to be friends with ROY Scheider at the end of his life. And Goldman was a thousand percent right about him. You go back and look at jaws. Okay. It's good. It's dry fister. Robert Shaw was ROY Scheider is like the essential beating heart of movie. And I asked him Bill. I asked him one time. I said when did you know, we're gonna need a bigger boat. Was a great line. He said the first table read. I said it and everybody screamed they said then the next day we had another table read. And they knew what was coming. And I said it and they screamed again and at that point. I thought it might be pretty good. Oh, no. He's he's when you ask about meals. Okay. Do you have a couple more minutes? Yeah. Okay. You know, what it was like you never were allowed to pick up a check. Okay. No win further that you never did. The check never came. Never understood. How he did it where you would just be sitting. And then he would look at a union. Be legged aright was great to see, you know, be like I don't understand there. Still check. What happened check? And you you said this the other day, and you're right. You just imagined him having an account at every single great restaurant in Manhattan. I think he did. I think that's I think that's what happened. The last time. We went out to dinner was it at the end of September. He was still well enough. His I don't know. When's the last time his in addition to everything else that's happened to him with the cancer and everything his knees have been shot for you? You know, what a big guy he is. So I tend the piece I wrote about him getting built through a crowded room is like moving Nebraska. Okay. So it's a rainy night and. And Susan's park in the car. And so I got my wife Taylor's getting the table his chair ready for them. And so I asked one of the hostesses at this restaurant is could you help me help this man to the table, which she did when we got there. I went back to the hostess, and I said listen that man you just helped. Are you familiar with the Princess bride will this young woman? She's about thirty years old. She loses her shit. Okay. She she said, oh, it's my favorite book is my favorite movie, the first movie I ever saw with my now husband. So she tells the other hostess who loses her shed who tells our waitress so if the rest of the night is a Bill Goldman back. Okay. All of the illness washed away and everybody in the restaurant is they wanted to talk about Butch. They wanna talk about the it was it was fabulous. It was like watching him be young. Oh, all over again. When we're leaving the first host to says, Mr. Goldman would you sign as you wish in sign your name? So I can give it to my husband. Which Billy does. Okay. Now, the the Bill Goldman loved best is ending. We're helping them into the car. The last thing we hear his Bill say similar, I really like it here. What do we come back? Third surprised when it was funny. He's the the way he handled compliments 'cause you'd be eating dinner with them or lunch or whatever. And people would come over to him. Like, he was like, you know, Vito Corleone in the in the forties and one time we one time we're eating in like Barbara Walters came over with like whoever shoes eating with like to kind of pay respect. And it's like because he was such a good guide such a normal guy. You've for you. You'd forget that he was really really high esteem like where did he rank in like the giants of New York he had to be in the top level. Right. It was acute star. And when you were trying about him being called the greatest screenwriter forty years ago. New York magazine published a list of the top one hundred screenwriters of all time last year. And he still finished six at the nearby. Then he's eighty six years. All right. Okay. And I and I keep pointing out to people at the age of eighty four he had a play on Broadway with Laurie Metcalf and Bruce Willis when they brought misery. No, he was a lot of the obits pointed out he was the first green writing celebrity. He really was because they got into the bidding war for for Butch. And he got paid four hundred thousand dollars at the time. Which was like would I I don't know what it would be now. And and yes, but he wore that extremely well. He was extremely shy. And I discovered I I was reminded of something the other day think about this in the nineteen fifties on west seventy second street three men shared an apartment. One was John candor of candor nab, which is cabaret Chicago. And a little song called New York, New York. He's ninety one they'll sharpest attack. He was over to see Bill the other day when I was there Bill Goldman was the second member his brother, James. Goldman was the third member. All he did was right. A lion in winter and the book folly, okay? And those three young guys before when it was all ahead of them shared the same apartment and Bill they sh- they shared the same doctor at the time. And I forget the doctor's name and had a southern accent? John candor told the story the other day and later on when they'd all want either Tony's or Oscars the doctor called up. John candy said, you know, and y'all we're talking about going into show business back in the fifties. I thought you're just fucking around. We are he used to. I don't know if you did this with you too. But he was always kind of near the near the last like six seven years. He was disappointed that I wasn't ready more. And was no he was that's for sure. And we went out to Muna to lunch. I saw it was one of the years. I was doing I was doing the TV show that countdown show the the pregame postgame show and it had like I had like four or five jobs. And I was just I was completely. I just took on too much completely over around. I wasn't writing that much and we went out to lunch. And he's like what's going on with you. Why aren't you writing more as like, well, I'm doing this TV they wanted and I'm running grantland we have like forty five people. Now, we're doing this thirty thirty. You know? And he's like, yeah. But you're a writer. I just say, and I could tell he he was basically telling me like the TV's great. But you should really worry about the writing. I if they can fit in the TV after maybe, but but he eat we talked about it. And he was just like, look, you know, writings that fun. This is a big theme in stuffy road twos. Like sound fun. Right. Nobody said it was a good time. You state you just he would say the the the not the typewriter you're staring at the typewriter empty pay piece of paper. But he he was like like you push yourself like your great writer. You gotta right. You gotta keep up keep those fingers moving, and like probably like a month and afraid I wrote this piece that I really liked it to him. It was about this eagles documentary that really liked and sent it to him. And I was like I got the fingers going, and he's like, that's good more more say. He's just he loved it. He loved the writing medium the most as much as he liked movies. I think he he really loved reading written stuff the most at anything. So he he if I heard him say this once I heard him say it a hundred times all I ever wanted to do with tell my story. Okay. And he he couldn't believe it the day. He found out the temple of gold had been accepted. And and was was going to be published. John candor says he sat there almost in a catatonic state in the apartment that day because he didn't know how to react. And and, but he took unbelievable pride, and and and work that he knew was going to last forever all the president band. Whatever read for tried to say, it was his script and its greatest newspaper movie of all time. Butch people will be talking about Butch in one hundred years and Princess bride may be the thing that he'll be remembered Beth board. A couple of years ago one night after dinner at Susan's out on eastern Long Island that we would she had a big screen in her living room, and we'd watch movies, and my son Zach said, let's watch Bush with Bill which we'd never done. In fact, when my boys were little Bill, I can tell you this. I used to tell him that the movie ended when they went to Bolivia. So the kids when they were little they didn't get to see their asses shot off, right or on. Okay. And then one night, they they were watching it came up watched it to the end, and they all came up and glared at maintenance said dad, we wanna talk to you about Butch. And I said, well what he said it didn't end when they went to Bolivia. Did it wasn't. Oh it did. Okay. So we watch we watch Butch one night. And it was like, whoa. The director's cut or the screenwriters cut version. He's doing a running dialogue as we're watch Bill. It was so great that the first time they do a close up of Redford. He turns to my sons, and he said when this movie came out he was famous it's you or me or what did they get ready to jump at it? He one of his famous line was hush and listen he'd say hyphen, listen. Okay. And we'd say why did he go? This seems pretty fucking good. Okay. Any one of the great movie going experiences? I've ever had in my life listening to his commentary on that movie. No would have been a good. They should've put that on the DVD his director's commentary. Yeah. He he has some he wrote in adventures of screen trade about how Bush came out in the critics savaged it, and then the audience is just liked it. And I think that was like a seminal moment for him. Because the that goes back to the nobody knows anything thing, you know, he wrote for I did my MBA book in two thousand nine and I got him to read about Dave the butcher which took. I don't know twenty emails and seventeen phone calls and then him writing a draft. And then he was like a little kid. Did. I do. Okay. What else? I know. You did. It was great. I'm just gonna run is. No, no, let me do. So he did multiple drafts. And finally ended up in it. And you know, he it was just it was really sweet because at that point. And he wasn't writing ally anymore and even pumping out seven hundred words on the Bush was like a big deal for him because he just went he just kind of stopped writing. We he'd never really toured for any of the book tour is kind of a modern thing. And. Yeah. And so he'd never really toured. So now, wait till next year comes out, and we go on we go on tour together. I didn't know you did a tour. Well, yeah, I forget how many city we went to Washington Philip. I we didn't go that far. But because he he, you know, he'd always say you have to do all the talk, okay. Fine. Okay. So one night we're in Washington, and we do the old Larry King late night, syndicated radio show. Oh, yeah. Which which he did out of cr-? So we were on for the whole two hour. Okay. About an hour and Larry starts taking phone calls. And all of a sudden all these people who had never gotten to talk to him. I mean, he isn't like a moderate writing celebrity where he's you know, he's doing talk show. He he had never done anything like this. And now the calls start coming in about Butch and about the Princess bride. We finished at one o'clock in the morning, and it's eight the show is done out of some strip mall out in crystal city, Virginia we walk out and here are like a hundred people standing outside with their copies of the Princess bride waiting for us to come to the car. Wow. And it was the coolest thing. And it's like, Mr. Goldman mystical. You what Wesley said this on page thirty four. But then I. I didn't understand why you know, if you came back, aren't you ever gonna write a sequel, what about buttercup do they have an thrusting these old copies of Princess bride at him? And he was like wonderfully overwhelmed by the power of what I still think it's the best. You know, his the story that he'll be remembered best for and and we got in the car, and he said, I guess they like that storage said. Yeah kinda. Yeah. They did. It was one of the coolest things I've ever seen in my own writing life. Well, I it's weird. That's that is going to be his legacy because I think, you know, Butch at some point is gonna feel super dated already does to some degree all the president's men. You know, I think that one's gonna last because it's such great newspaper movie. But I think the difference with Princess bride is at some point every kid is gonna like that movie. You're gonna hit a point whether you're four years old five six seven eight nine ten that movie's ageless that move is going to be good one hundred years from now, and it's going to have the same impact on an eight year old that it does right now. And I think ironically, that's going to be the movie that outlives him by decades. Right. Oh, no. It's it's forever. I mean, I I mean Mandy patinkin says he doesn't go a day in his life was somebody not asking him to say. My name is Inigo Montoya my father prepared to guy or as you wish. Or right conceivable is is is part of you know, it it just it's always going to be part of the language. We were my kids, and I were going through lines of from book and the movie the other day never start a land war in Asia. It just made me laugh all. Again. It's just a ridiculously funny Goldman like line. And now Princess bride Bill always used to have this expression. You may have heard him say it when somebody would do something go, well that'll be the first paragraph of their own bed. And and I think we thought we finally find out sadly enough that that the first paragraph for him was pretty fat. You know, you. I mean, it's a lump paragraph world's greatest screenwriter world's greatest Knicks fan, and and a really good friend and somebody that was always fun to talk to an Email with and just kind of always always there and a lot of great ways. So I'm gonna miss them. You'll be at the memorial service. But I'm going to be there. I'm I I will mention I I won't try to do my whole thing here. But I he would call in the morning on the day after knick game. Okay. And we would go through what I call Goldman for play where he'd asked me how I was doing the kids Taylor. My wife. But there was only question one question that we were getting to. Yes, did you watch last night? And he was only going to talk about the next and and we had that conversation again. And again, and again and every time he sounded like a kid who had been to his first NBA game the night before. All right. Thanks for doing this. I'll see you at the memorial service. Amen. Thank you for doing this. Great to talk to you. All right. Great talk to you. Thanks. I wouldn't talk to Brian Koppelman. But I wanna tell you about fan duel. Fantasy is just about done at this point unless you unless you were lucky enough to make the playoffs, but guess what daily fantasies not done? It just keeps going forever and ever even goes to the playoffs. That's why I'm so excited to be playing on fan. Dough this season over a fan. Deleted the excitement of researching and building your team each week, regardless of the outcome plus fan dole has never been more fun or easy to play at been playing in their gridiron pick 'em contest every week of free contest. I need to do is pick winners. No spreads ten K split amongst the top pickers. I thought I had a great lineup this week, and some people let me down I'm looking at you Dion Lewis, looking you Alex Collins couple people, I I really thought I had it had Kenny GAO. Dad, Michael Thomas, I had a had saquon Barkley. I thought this can be the week for me. Now, I'm in a DFS slump. If you want to break out of your slump, and you're not a fantasy expert fan does clearly the place. To play new users get a five dollar bonus. When they make the first posits, oh, come play with me at Faneuil dot com slash B. S new users only bonus not available for withdrawal, state nature. Restrictions apply for full job eligibility rules and terms and conditions to fan duel dot com. All right. We're gonna call brand Koppelman, you know, him from billions from rounders from a whole bunch of great things. He's been on this podcast many times. He's a friend of the podcast than he made himself available today. What's calm right now? Online right now, one of the co creators of billions along with a lot of other great things. And also the guy who introduced me to Bill Goldman, Brian Koppelman. How are you? Mitch thin, and sir has it going. I wish these are better circumstances for us to talk. Yeah. I am. In fact, I I just ran into rember and Julia Littman two seconds ago because of where I'm shooting today, and they happen to be dumble house where I was and we started talking about this. And I told them they said, you know, Bill is a long way from having recovered from this. And I said to them that we've been talking all weekend. You're not. Yeah. And I said, you know, this Bill Goldman. And as I as I said to you know, I knew Bill for a long time. But I'm not one of those people who is in his inner circle, we weren't close friends or anything like that. He was a hero to me. And the fact that I got to spend time with this hero of mine. But he took the time to take me in my creative partner Tatum. Lean-to two lunches and was there to answer questions at the beginning of our career. He was a marketable guy and his work as it was for you Bill. It's worked just meant so much to me and generations at screenwriters figured out. How to be screenwriters because it Bill Goldman's example. And and you know, I know what he meant to you. Because the other thing is right as Knicks think about somebody who does into areas, right? The book Qian Luca wrote together, the book Goldman wrote about Broadway, originally, we and then the way he wrote about the next and talked about these things keeping them in a way that nobody else did he didn't would've vernacular that was conversational and air you died at the same time. And he was on he as hell and Nobody's Fool, and you know, was as I say at a man, just a great example of the way to live a creative life, and and and a life that involve a lot of giving back others trying to do it. And as an artist he was kind of unsurpassable as screenwriter. Yeah. We. Loop gun. I talked about you know, where how he was one of the great living New Yorkers beluga was friends with them for forty years in probably the Cy heartburn is eat objectively. He's little older than you to would as you're growing up. Just to have somebody like that take you to lunch. That's gotta be. Is there anybody else as a New Yorker that would that would have a bigger impact? I can't imagine. Right. No. I mean getting to look, you know, we talk about the knee, and we reference we've reference Goldman's work in all of our stuff in some way, and which can Butch Cassidy and Sundance kid or mentioned twice and billions over the first few seasons. Yeah. You know, that movie was huge Princess bride with the biggest thing ever to us. And all the president's men is like the best movie ever made talking about a guy in his books for his books were great. But, you know, Bill when I connect to you what I felt was like this these two guys who were in some way enacted and needed to be connected. And the funny thing was Goldman was not internet savvy at that time, you know, eighty seven when he died this week. And and I remember printing you, and I had talked somehow just before that I knew how much you meant to you. And so I printed out what I thought were like five or six of your column, but he would really big, and I drop them off at the Carlyle where we live by told him. I was doing it. And then he called me up, and he said all right introduced me to the kid. And then I got out of the way and let you guys do your thing. But didn't you just find him to be the sharpest like, you would tell him a story and the way that he would be able to take it apart and understand it like the brain that guy had him a life that he lived, you know? Yeah, I was always amazed especially when he hit his eighties. There wasn't a lot of decline. You know, he he did the decline was more physical like you. You know, when you when you'd have lunch with them you'd see them walking down the street. He's seemed like a really old guy. And then when you actually sat down with them as he was a sharp as attack who's falling everything sportswise, movie wise, I finally dragged them we're gonna play it later in this podcast. But I dragged him on to podcasts. One was in two thousand eleven one was two thousand fourteen and both times it was like basically kicking and screaming he came on. And then was great and could. Talk about anything and was like just somebody who could have been on my podcast one hundred times. But yeah, when you would go to when we would go to long for them star. You were saying, you know, go. Go to launch them even them. Sometimes we bring another screenwriter law because someone would hear we were going, and we would say do you wanna come? We'd ask Bill, and then you get to hear Kim describe the life of the screenwriter the ideal life of of what it meant. And you know, how these directors were idiots Neave actors work and you'll handle outta hand. It was an incredibly high calling which was really inspiring the young when you're asking about the young being thirty two after our first movie and Tony dealer. So fine introduced Tony Gilroy. Do us the gold, right? Tony Gilroy, Richard Rodney, Scott, Frank, Scott, Rosenberg David count. You know, the the the giants who came right before like the real giant amounts? Green writing they all considered themselves like Goldman manatees. He was the guy who taught what it meant to be a screen writer and Tony introduced that to me one day. You wanna go to Goldman? Like bucket me. And the four of us went to Canada glued, which is his spot. Where see when it's all the time in January two great restaurants for wrote about this on NCIS earned. You'll Goldman would never I'm sure you at the spirit of Russia them. He would never let you pick up the tab ever keep it always have someone there who wanted to cook something special look different off of it. You could be treated everybody, credibly. Well, he was sort of curiosity you find out like the chef in this restaurant, and he would make it a point. I think that person he was gracious gracious man to talk about an artist a little bit. Yes. Even you got into it. No, let's do it. There's almost no screenwriter born polential edge just in or even if you'd never met any of those people nice to all of us when you think about what he created Butch Cassidy kid, you could say he really created the Bader movie character in that. Movie the movie characters kind of self aware aware of you thirty at the situation, it's not fully meta. But it's close in on the Ryan or son. It's while in the serious situation movie that not kind of death and carnage and sadness that picture tone. He struck I believe you can find that's the root of like all the moderate, movie wise cranking hotter movie characters who came after they were in serious situations. But those guys didn't take themselves too seriously. And I would bet you don't go through the day without quoting push Cassidy, whether you realize it or not, I know I quote that movie pretty much every day in my life, and some little way there's some learn from it so moment from it that that happens. You know, you look at at the captain Ross character at the way that the dynamic between those three guys took place, you know, lines. I keep thinking it's what you're good at all that stuff that just. Continues to be echoed the same dude wrote the greatest modern suspense movie. And I thought man wrote the most romantic funding all the time in the Princess bride, and it's hard to find anybody's body of work that really equals it in its variety, and then level of execution. So we could argue his best was maybe you know, one could make an argument about mad at its best. But Bamut did one thing really it was able to do everything. And I'm not even mentioned Isra with greatest movie made the second best probably movie made out of a Stephen King. Right. And when somebody and Oscar, yeah. And so when you when you think about it, and then also he would write the other way that he gave everyone education. Right. So yes, I was lucky to have written, Dave. And I were to write a movie at got us in in show business that then Tonio we're introduced us to Bill. Not even if you didn't know Bill he wrote those books, so not just adventures in the screen trade, which anybody who's interested in Hollywood has to read, but all those other books, which lied I tell all the books about in talking to studio people about him figuring out what it meant was a road map for all of them. So, you know, misery. You're interested misery yougov and tell the story of how he almost had Warren Beatty, and how it ended up being drive it in a way that puts you right in his chair as they're making that movie and its applicability in all sorts of of different ways. I mean, she was so generous of spirit in that. He would learn a lesson. He was live it he would succeed, and he would share the over and over you share that with his readers. And then, you know, you know, each other at the Knicks games all the time. And and for me, it was reassuring an incredible thrill every before I knew him. And then when I knew him when when he and I. Would shake hands admit game, which happened a lot. I in no matter what I would turn to stand a quasi. Go. Can you believe that's Bill Goldman? And here I never stop being remarkable to me that was built Goldman and I got to shake his hand. And he got to go sit there, and we got to watch our together. Yeah. Those fi his five best movies are five months famous movies. I guess were Butch Butch and Sundance all the president's men. Marathon-man misery Princess bride, which are five movies that don't really have anything in common. Right. I and so when you're talking about the world's greatest screenwriter. He wrote five completely different movies that were in different genres, basically and we're executed completely differently from one another. And I think that's why. So I don't know who the greatest screenwriter is. But he's in the conversation, and that's his biggest Trump card. Wait, no doubt. He's in the conversation. I think the one thing that what I think goes by the other. He's there's a sense of humor running through all of them. Yeah. Every one of those movies has an incredibly funny moments or two that cut the drama and even Princess bride, which is a comedy. But all of those movies are the stakes are incredibly high, but you are laughing and join yourself as you're watching it he you are rolling along. And and last thing while you're caught in the middle of it, you know, and book very few people ever up better dialectic than William Coleman. Right. I mean when you think about the dialogue when? You think about is it safe? I mean that was his book he wrote the book, and then he wrote the movie marathon man, would which has if it safe, and and the things in his movies, they feel like the just been around forever. Like Bill think about Bush, Kathy thinking about every one of those scenes think about the scene the duel between palm and and thinking about when he looks at at Sundance, and he goes when this is over if I'm dead Kalem and Redford says love to I mean, there's no way that I mean if you look at even just our work. There's no way that Mike and worm talk to each other like they've been around or is it gets done. It's get thing with action. Chuck, it's it's just it's an, and I think that that's just the smallest example. And I think it's basically an all the movies that came after. Yeah. I don't know. I don't want to. I don't wanna say he created the whole buddy cop buddy frenemy type thing because it would have happened. It's not like it never would have trickled into movies. He. This is the first one did it, you know, Butch and Butch and Sundance before that. I don't know that's the prototype for basically every single buddy cop movie, we've ever had every sort of these two people are frenemies. And we're not sure if they're going to get along, but they need each other even like accent, Chuck where it's like enemies who become friends air loyalty, put the loyalty, the Bush and Sunday have had reach other, you know, one with taciturn and the other was a big talker. And the way in which that. The report between them happened the way in which that repartee happened Yemen. It's been echoed how does people weapon exist? If there's not a Bush cast new kid. I don't I don't see it. Sure brother movies before that looked there with a road movies that thin Crosby and Bob Hope people always had, but they weren't what he did. He took to kind of anti hero guys and put them in this situation. They were two guys who were criminals, and who, but he he made them. He made you understand why they were there for gave them flaws. That's boulder movie characters didn't have when you had to have a more traditional hero. And he let them he let them do their thing on on the screen. And as I said emitted incredibly funny big loss. It's a big loss to the culture and a big loss. Anybody who who knew a man and as a Nick fan a big loss. Knock knicks. I I was saving some of the next up for you. I'd I'd won last screenwriter type question though. Who's like the Yoda now that he's gone 'cause he really was like screenwriter iota there for twenty plus years. So is does that person even exist now? I mean, listen Gilroy is a lot of answers Gilroy knows a lot and didn't know the kinds he meant toward women mentor. But certainly, you know, I mean David kit, like if Lavina were are wondering about something tricky, you know, general slightly now that we're over fifty. We're not really calling that much, but we would call David Chen. Or are we would call devroy? If if Bill Goldman wasn't around there are guys like that. But they were trained by Bill most, right? Most of those people were trained we're trained by Bill. All right. The knicks. So he he. You know, Luke Kuhn. I talked about how there's a certain generation a Knicks fan who was there in the sixties. When Russell is just killing them every year. And then all of a sudden had these glory years in the seventy and seventy three but that whole run, and then we're kind of hoping it would come back, and then Bernard's there for a little bit. It's fun. Go seven games against the salads. That dies. Ewing comes in finally have this Riley as the savior, to-to-to them. Jay a couple of times very close to beating Akeem then the feud the Miami and the Pacers could never get through the nineties with the title, but it was still relevant every year. And and then this century comes in the Knicks die, and they have basically other than two thousand thirteen an entire century of just complete misery and unfortunately for him. This was the last twenty years his life. You're trying to kill a second front. Here's with their. Belt. Why not enough? He he wanted it so bad. He wanted to see them be good again. And it just didn't happen. And you know, now you look at the Stephanie like fuck James Dolan, just killing off Knicks fans. Now, you know where we're talking about twenty years of it. Oh through so glad you're butter out Dolan. Yes. Look, here's the thing. You would go to the games and more my seats are just looked to my left and down. And there was Bill and something is not. Yes, everything you just said is true. He did get to see the glory years. He did live the pain addict. But what's amazing is when you think about the kind of hand that Bill Goldman was oh, I'm so glad I just use that word, which I'm sure Luebeck used. There was nobody who routed harder for your most people in Hollywood root for stuff to fail. All bill. Wanted was your stuff to do. Well, he was a great sort of home team fan. So if you were in his orbit at all, you got a letter when your movie came out, you got a call. You got this guy, you could tell telling people the movie was good and had spirit was there for the next two. Yes, you picked on you know, shit or whatever. But boy did he want the next to great. And you know, when at times when I would like walk away. He. Couldn't walk away. He would still go. He would still go and still believe that it was possible. But listen, it's very Princess bride character like right to believe that the miracle somehow possible to believe that the evil can be overcome because make no mistake Doan is close to prince Humperdinck. So. Yeah. But Bill have going and whenever they win. There'll be a lot of who think of fail in and raise a glass come on, you know, because he was stalwart, man. He really stalwart. He was really there. I think picture because I'm sure you can I know exactly where he's that. I know exactly what he looked like if you took the seat. I'm not kidding around. I would stare at him during the game, dude. I would look over would see how he was taking it. I'd seen there with Susan his wife and ours girlfriend one time like as life. I would look you Susan partnering life, you know. And I would see Susan sitting there with them. And I would look at the toll that it was taking when we saw. And then when we'd get a decent enough. Sentimen Email I checked in twenty thirty twenty two seven I found one I sent twenty thirteen and I was like I wrote I just want to write you one note while we're winning. L because moved constantly just going back and forth on shady we. Yeah. I went back. I searched for his name because I was trying to see how far back my emails on with them. And it only went back to two thousand thirteen because misty Baena will. But but he had this whole stretch after they lost the in round two to the Pacers where he was slowly realizing that it was going back to being miserable again. And just each one was like. Was like, I just read your basketball book. Again. That's the only thing that makes me feel good about basketball right now, despair. And just he he was so anguished by the fact that they are bad. I really I've never met anybody. Even my dad who is just a maniac with sports. I've never met anybody. Who is who is more wrecked by team? He's really like emotionally wrecked by them. And it's a bummer that it didn't get better. I I'm bummed out about it. I mean, he had the years he did out of those who seasons where they won. But I agree. And look man, I think, you know, what's great about what you were there that he had you in the world talking about basketball has been a comfort in a way that he could you know? And we need a lot of people. Yeah. It was laterite is that I think he he liked. I mean, he truly best true. Yeah. True. Best friendship, you know. And I feel so bad for my. I mean, I I I talked to Mike and Scott Frank, but they build I just didn't tell any to to say how sandwich because you know. These are the people that Bill was in beta caravan they were with him. You know, loop would never say it about himself really everything loofah put in huge time for years and years and years looking after Bill and Troy you'll Mike have such tough guy image, but Microsoft, the actually two people he cares about. And I mean, he gave everything he could to taking care of looking after and be an effort for Goldman that I was always touched by that. And you I love Luke, Luke air pal. So yeah, it's it's funny. Like, I think back to when I got to know him who was during the Isaiah era, and we're we're gonna run pieces of two different podcasts that did with him at the end of this podcast eleven and fourteen and in the two thousand eleven when they had just gotten Carmelo and he was so excited because he had just gone to the game where Carmella had one in the garden was alive again. And I think that's he just wanted that again. And it just goes to show you in sports is I'm having a great run right now sports. I obviously in in you know, I definitely appreciate every minute of it. You never know. And it's going to turn and if you'd told any Knicks fan and then in the late nineteen ninety s you guys are going to be terrible for the entire twenty first century up through two thousand eighteen eat. Nobody would have believed that it was inconceivable. What we hit? We have more money than just about anybody people wanna play here. What what do you mean? We're going to be terrible is inconceivable and it still inconceivable. I don't get it. Well, I I'm supposed to say you're not using that word correctly on our Goldman. But the truth is, you're you're using it correctly. It was inconceivable that thinking about the fact that you can never use the word inconceivable without thinking of Bill Goldman and the Princess bride, right? Blake literally that's the influence, but that guy I mean, there's I'm telling you there's a million of those things catch for that. So while we're there are things that you say in your regular life that just go back to Goldman's work. It's so a permeates the culture, man. And and we'll all I think the actor will only continue to grow like Preston third just or something like, I think be were alive. When a true giant was alive. And we both got to know him, which is really incredible. I thank you for introducing to me now, I can let you go back to the billion set what season for your in the middle of it in the middle of season four, look, I'm sure, you know, we'll talk more about billions. I just wanna ask one question though, today or tomorrow it's going to mall Tuesday. Yeah. So oh, so okay. Just the night. I've never been more excited for an NFL game and probably three years than I am night's game. I just wanna know who you think's gonna win. Oh, the chiefs ramps. I I actually I think the chiefs are going to cover, and I think it's gonna be a three point game. And if I had to bet on a win like whatever the best value bet is I'd been on the chiefs chiefs. Yeah. I don't think it's going to be you think it's going to be thirty seven third like is it going to be just a points explosion? Yeah. Like, a forty three to forty and I don't think the Rams will ever be able to stop the chiefs would would be my so hard from really rooting from. He's he's Graham Steph curry tomorrow. Hey, man, Bill for real, you know, told ya to tell you that. To tell you that he died, and and I do know that you, you know, you meant to them, and I do know that you really gotta let the friendship of you. So I know the same with you too. Thanks. But it's really cool that you're doing this this podcast about him. What a great what a great thing and a nice tribute. Because of how much you know, sports and writing about sports meant the Goldman. So it's really cool, and you and I speak over the next couple of days. I'm sure I appreciate the time. Sad levin. Okay. Take care. I talked to shop fantasy in a second. But first if you've been thinking about getting this SimpliSafe home security system, but you've been waiting for the holidays when on tech deals come out you made a smart move right now. I can get you a great deal on SimpliSafe if you go to SimpliSafe dot com slash B S, you'll get twenty five percents off any new system. What an amazing deal the really do anything. Like this. The drainage is for us. Simplisafe is great protection for your home and family that don't make you sign a contract. No hidden fees. Throw us again, great reviews. See net PC magwar cutter all say, SimpliSafe the best curious system. There is if you look for a security system on a great deal. Go to SimpliSafe dot com slash b s to save twenty five percent. Make sure to use that unique. URL? It really helps out the show once again that his SimpliSafe dot com. Slash B S. Hurry. The deal ends November twenty sixth. Editor in chief of the ringer chief content officer shot fantasy. Hey, bill. You named your podcast the big picture. Yes. Seems relevant. Yeah. I mean, that's that's one of one of William Goldman's books. That was it's it's more of a collection. It's not one of the quote unquote classics, but it was one that I found in the ninety s and was really influenced by yes. So I'm I'm older than you. So I remember reading those New York magazine pieces when they're coming out in real time. There was there was some great getting in the mail stuff when you know between that and spy magazine and sports Australians. Really Snyder back then where? And I think premier magazine might have been might have one of that, sir. Like ninety ninety one early nineties. There was you've got the mailbox you'd be like, oh, I wonder if this is coming today, but near magazine every week, you knew it was coming and you're hoping for that Goldman movie column, and then it would be you never known as coming. He's like a cat. Sometimes you jump on your lap. It's really, hey, it's a gold McCollum. I've seen people say since he passed away that many editors over the years have tried to get him to write this column since he stopped doing that one, and you know, to make him more of a regular contributor because he had this like that classic columnist voice. And if you've so familiar, and who so fun to read, and you always felt like you had a little bit more information than you. You know that you're like, oh, man. How do you know that like, that's what's great about? Clint eastwood. Yeah. So yeah. But he never really did it after that. I mean do intermittently he would write things, but he never was a consistent magazine columnist. I don't think you know, this. I tried to get him for Graylan. Really? Yeah. To to do the same thing. Yeah. In fact, one of the. Podcasts for running. I think is from like March two thousand eleven and one of the reasons I had him come on. He'd never really wanted to come on. But I made them come on this one time. I was like I need you the Knicks just gone Carmelo and is the Oscars as come on if you ever coming on this time. So it came on. He was great. But I've secretly hoping he would come on. And a lot of people would tell him how Grady was and he would make him kind of want to rate for. Because we were launching it three or four months later. I was like just beer move agai redo do that New Yorker near column and. You know, and sadly, I know this feeling too. Well, at this point, he just didn't wanna do it. Because he didn't know if he was going to be consistently. Good anymore. Yeah. The the easiest thing in the world to do is not right. You know, that's and as hard to right? And I'm sure even though he had written so much and had been told so many times what genius. He was you still have that in that fear that you're not gonna be able to do it. He had more anxiety and fair. And that was also great at writing about it. Yeah. And that was one of the things just as a writer. I think a lot of us identified with how tortured he was by the process need career almost got derailed by writer's block for for four five years. Something like that. Yeah. I mean, he also doesn't have a ton of credits in the eighties. He doesn't have a ton of movies produced. I've always been fascinated by. And I wonder if any of this stuff will start to come out. I mean, he not only did he work as a script doctor, and or quote, unquote consultant on a lot of movies over the years, especially in the nineties like few good, men and. Ghost in the darkness and stuff like that. But he's got so many screenplays that are just unproved and books. They're like little snatches of those screenplays where he's kind of talking about what's happening in this movie that he was writing but never made. Yeah. What was that one? He wrote where he said the the producer in the studio head. They just hated each other. And it it just like, and it was his thing. He really loved and he thought it was going to be a big deal. And it was just like no that's never going to MIT how I don't know. It was one of the books, and I there's also just so many like he thought year, the comet which is this really fascinating movie from the early eighties was going to be like one of his biggest hits. It was the thing. He was the proudest of. And it's like maybe the biggest bomb he's made in his career. So like, my mom likes it though. So that's all that matters, your mom, loves wine. No, no. It's the only way. Never had another one. Maybe we should write a one movie Bill. But yeah, I mean, so even the things that you think are going to be incredible don't work as well. And he had this incredible sense of being able to write about that. After the fact and explaining why something didn't work the takes like a unique kind of humility. But also, you could sense that he really had some like gusto some swagger to really cool combination of person really jumped off the page in that wrote about their life. Nobody was ever more in your wheelhouse than him. I mean, he's just very installation ex and move is. Yeah. But also like you came to him. You're, you know, you're a little older than me and the way that you received him in you saw movies in the seventies. Like, I wasn't seeing movies in the seventies. And so I I he was very conic by the time. I got a chance to figure out who he was. So he literally was heroic to me the way he did stuff. But then as time went on, and especially when you started to kind of expose the kind of person that he was he started to really feel like just a guy. I knew the guy I wanted to hang out with. But like a guy I grew up with like, my dad's friend or something. Yeah. And that has such a powerful. And then you start to realize why you like the people that you like to. It's like, of course, the guy who like light loves the Knicks probably would want to hang out in a deli for two hours and like bullshit about I don't the outlaw Josey Wales. Like, that's that's exactly the kind of person. I want to hang with you wrote. You wrote a really good piece about him on Friday. And you wrote that he was kind of this. He tied to old school New York, which you caught or would you call gruff New York? Yeah. He was like almost like cheerlead gruff, you know, you'd be like harsh, but nice like it was like Walter Matthau. I know China's graph. Yeah. String Colorado place. Yeah. New York's gone or live there for many years. But when I go back now at that's not the experience, I have it's very it's a cliche to say. But it's very, shiny, enrich inexpensive. And it it just it feels like a slightly different city, which is in maybe two nostalgic thing to say, but he he is an embodiment of my at least my idea of that. Yeah. Who who's the Yoda? Now, I asked Koppelman this and he just listed seven people. But that's kind of one of the things that died here. The the movie yoda's is gone. And I don't know who replaces it, and then maybe nobody does. Well, what do you mean when you say that you mean like the genius screenwriter? Do you mean the person who pulls back the curtain a little bit all that stuff? Like every writer who wanted to. Wanted to write movies at some point if Goldman had reached out to them or they cross pass them. And Goldman said something like I liked your movie. That's probably the best compliment. You could get from anybody who was involved in movies. I would think. Yeah. You're probably right. You know, I don't know who that is now in the in the deadline story about his his passing. There's this incredible story. That's been told many times about experience he had going to a screening of silence of the lambs, and he didn't know Jonathan Demme, but he was invited before the movie came out to a friends and family screening in goes to the movie goes home next morning picks up his phone calls. Jonathan Demme out of the blue Jonathan's Bill Goldman, I wanna talk. I have some thoughts about your movie Johnson dummies elated. He calls him back on my God Bill Goldman Butch Cassidy and the Sundance kid, you're such a hero of mine, which you think of the movie bull Goldman's like this movie is amazing. You didn't incredible job with it. And have one note there's a scene in the movie where you have. Jack Crawford get fired and Cleary's get taken off the case. It's in the third act. That's just like a classic third act exposition dump you don't need that just cut it out of the movie. This is the friends and family screening. He had seen it at the movies pretty much locked Demi goes back to his editor they sit down. And he tells the story that Bill Goldman told him, and he's like shit is this right? He's like, well, we it doesn't matter. The movies lost. We can't change it. Then like, let's just cut the scene and see how it plays without the scene. So the cut the scene they run the movie again, and they're like holy shit. Goldman was right. That's incredible. And now that seemed we've never seen before because it's not in the movies. So we don't even really know what he's talking about. But he had that ineffable quality of just kind of knowing. What was right? The story. I don't think there's anybody right now that does that. And you'd think with Twitter and social media the way that we have at there'd be a lot more kind of like behind the scenes slash expertise sharing. I can't think of a screenwriter, you know, you'd think like the Judd appetizer Aaron Sorkin of the world people who are thought to be really great at. This would would have that kind of reputation. Honestly, a person who's pretty close to getting into that stuff. And he's pretty young is very Jenkins. Who is unafraid to be like, here's what it's like to make a movie. Yeah. You know, he'll show you the particulars of certain choices that he makes them why? But it's not that same like avuncular wiseguy thing that that Goldman had. Who do you think? I mean who'd he couple medium and say, I can't even imagine. He's there's no answer. Yeah. Yeah. I think. Somebody. He had the weight of he was the world's greatest screenwriter are one of them. So he could say whatever he wanted. He was right more often than he wasn't. And and people always he had the reputation of his heart was in the right place, and he also failed and I think that's important to like he had real success, and then real failure. And then he came back again. And kind of you know, he was all these different iterations. It was so interesting to see people writing about him to over the weekend and just about how he was if he wants to be the great American, novelist. Yeah. You know, and the fact that he wrote so many novels. I mean, he really like twelve novels most of which are not very well known her well read with these option of the Princess bride and to imagine having that entire phase of your professional creative career. And then to just go on and do something different. And he went onto something different. And did that second thing or maybe even that third thing better than anybody ever. Did it? He's he didn't like six. Books by the time. He wrote Butch Cassidy. It's coppa. My talk about how he wrote his his most famous five movies are completely different from one. What's where does he never wrote a sports movie? And it's like he kept the two worlds, and maybe he did. And we just never saw. But he kept us two worlds separate from each other. Yeah. And I mean maverick and that goes on the darkness or kind of like competition movies. Yeah. They're not traditional sports movies. Yeah. You're right though. He didn't that's weird. And he was obviously such a sports guy. What's his basketball movie? I don't know. It's it. It's probably like a way better version of Eddie. Oh. I would watch that. I would watch anything. You would write the craziest thing about this to me is just that we launch your movie podcast like what three weeks ago called the big picture? And then just randomly. We did all the president's men two weeks ago, and we talked about Goldman in that thing about the experience he had on this. And we did a whole golden section. And I they kept a pretty interrupts. I I knew canoe. He wasn't in the greatest shape. I could tell I didn't know. I'd never knew things that shifted like the did. But though, the timing of it. I was I was just kind of flabbergasted by and then it's it's it's like anything else. The one thing I learned from this whole thing is like check in with people every once in a while. 'cause you get you know, we're doing a million things months pass. And you think you know, it goes from June to soup temblor to November new just kind of forget to check in. I know six months ago, we talked about him. Just randomly just the way that we would. And you were kind of wistful about it. You're like shit. I haven't talked to him. And you know, I want to catch up with him. I wish you would come on the podcast, and you have that same feeling about a person to you know, he's just you just see mild. I'll I'll get them next week. And then all of a sudden knee. You've forget as as the Knicks fan part of this whole thing the album, I talked about it. Isn't the other crazy sort of faded aspect of the story and everything that's happened in his passing is? And I don't want this to seem frivolous. But I think that they're find the team is finally doing what we all wanted them to do for twenty years, and I throw it away away from the best players. And I think that there has to be some small part of building. There was appreciating that you know, that was saying like thank God the wounds of the Ewing era are beginning to heal. And the team finally sees that you need a kind of a process to to become whole again, do you believe his theory that one of the reasons he was able to look at the movie industry with such discerning? I was because he was in New York. And I definitely yeah. And I don't think that necessarily moving here would have changed that if he had lived here for forty years, but I do think that there is a cynicism and a hardened exterior to New Yorkers. And also Chicago folks from Chicago, which is where. Is born that allowed him to not accept to sort of block the smoke. That's blown up his ass. Yeah. I'm sure he likes to be complemented, but he never got out of his own head and always had some doubt and fear in that is what drove him I think in a lot of ways. So those books will live on. Yup. The movies will live on capo. Mona decided Princess bride will be the thing that outlives him by like six hundred years because that's just a movie that can always be shown to any child. Probably and the they're gonna like it. And it does matter where the movie medium goes. But that movies always gonna work. But honestly, I mean, you can show people any number of his on you could you could watch the hot rock tonight and just be completely entertained, legitimately fun. Good caper movie. And there's not a lot of filmmakers, even filmmakers are working in the seventies. You'd be like, oh, they're so dated. I mean, we we watched all the president's men the other day. I was like this thing fucking crackles. Like, it's really good. And it's just you can't say that about forty year old movies anymore. That was his process for making that where we talked about in the podcast. Where he eventually just decided to throw away the second half of the book. Yes. Yeah. He always tried at nine different ways. And then I guess the the most interesting reading about him over and over again with how he approached movies was it was always like solving a problem. Whether it was like, how do I that this movie what I do about this character? How do I make this more like bull decision realistic? Enough owes a lot of how do I fix this? But then on top of it. How do I fix the situation where I got this star to be in my movie? But now he's being a huge Astle. How do I fix this? And it was it was a lot of problem solving that really works in any form a life. Whether it's sports pop culture politics. I completely agree. We do every day. I mean, it doesn't matter. I when we were talking about kind of how influential somebody can be on you. I think it's easy to look at the way that people with it. I write about movies and say like this is kind of a this is kind of a silly. And like to. Business-minded way. But it was influenced by people like Goldman who knew that a lot of this stuff was actually mechanics. Yeah. It's sort of like what you take out and what you leave in. What is successful in? What fails really does matter because it dictates what happens in the future? What people will do in the future where careers will go. What kinds of stories we get that stuff is is really important because it really shapes culture and the same way it shapes sports in politics. Like, you're saying knowing what needs to come out that sounds lamb story is all about storytelling, you know, like knowing cut out the back half of the Woodward and Bernstein book is all storytelling. You know? He was he was the bus at that. Well, yes, the good one in the famous story, which he's gonna talk about on one of the podcasts. We're gonna run we he just basically told the guys to cut the FBI, and he wasn't. He wasn't even his note. It was rob Reiner's note. He was just reiterating is like, I think Rob's, right? Get rid of the spy part. But then when people are trying to discredit that movie Damon talked about on the podcast that I did with them. That was how the oh actually William Goldman wrote that Damon's like how come I have forty versions of the script and my computer? But it's funny though, because there is I remember when I first heard that rumor there was weird the small part of me that wanted it to be true because you knew how good that movie was he were like, we'll only genius could make this movie. Right. You know, not these two kids that was why that that rumor held water for some people. He was the one thing. He was always a little. I don't know what the right where it is. Maybe not one hundred percent forthcoming on was how much script doctoring he did. Because for couple of reasons I think he got paid just a crazy amount of money to do it. I think he was very very very wary and conscious and thoughtful about. If if his shadow was over some movie than it reflected badly on the writers work, so he never wanted to be that. So he we don't really know how many movies he doctored or gave advice sign or whatever it honestly might have been like a hundred it's ver-. It's very possible. In fact, it's probably likely there's a handful of people from that era. I think specifically of Robert town as well who wrote Chinatown and a number of other great movies who had did have reputations though as doctors, and whether that meant they worked on one scene or developed one kind of character or not, and I think honestly, most people most people listening to your show don't know, just how many movies are not a single person sitting in a room writing a full script. I mean most studio movies get have more than one hand on on the screenplay. So it's it's not like, it'd be some scandal. But there's a lot of rules in arbitration that go around screenwriting. And then in addition to that it's like he's artists and he wanted to respect other artists, and there's this kind of like. Unspoken omerta quality around screenwriting and who gets credit for what he was always respecting. And I think. You know, sometimes he might have just gotten Santa script any might have given a note like that no to get to the science labs guy. Or the not gate good will hunting. But in in. It might have been they sent him the firm, here's five hundred grand just can you give us three sentences. Oh, just personally. And I've said this before the you on a podcast like one, I think the firm kicks ass. I love the firm into it would not shock me. If he he did a lot of work on that movie. Because if we by the way, we know nothing is throw that was on last night. And I was watching it. Really? Yeah. But it is one of those movies that he was rumored to avoid worked on like that. And it has that kind of dialogue where there's like two guys in a room. And it feels like the thing that they're talking about is the most important thing in the history of the universe. Like, he had an amazing ability to to write scenes like that. So maybe he did maybe didn't the two things. I never could figure out him is how many movies he was kind of peripherally involved with and how much money he had because you could have told me he was like the richest person in York. I probably would have believed that I just know that I'd never saw a check. And I know. No, he lived in an awesome place and. And are not cheap next as I don't money was never a problem for him at any point as life. But I have no idea. I don't I don't know how much money he was raking in from these studios from the eighties nineties. How many thanks is Bob with the mystery was one of the things I thought that made him so much fun to know. He is a little bit of an enigma. There's my my wife has an uncle who lives on Park Avenue, and he's a really old school, classy, intellectual New York guy who worked in advertising and. I always thought of William Goldman a little bit like him, you know, debonair thoughtful, but also could kinda mix it up and curse Yellen with like crush a Turkey sandwich. While telling you about why you're mcdaniels is really important. They also reads the New Yorker, and is really high minded when he needs to be that's kind of my that was my vision of him. Whether that was actually true. I'll never know. Yeah. Well, we're gonna miss him. He had a huge influence. I think you you made the point in your piece like, you know, some of this stuff we're trying to do here and some stuff, which I do grandma was born out of, you know, some of the way the thought process that he had and being passionate about something being thoughtful about it being honest about it and just kind of kind of go where the passion points are that he was the best example of that. Really interesting guy couldn't set up better. Thanks. Thanks bill. We're gonna call Wesley Morris. 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US orders saved got nothing to lose. That's marine layer dot com. Enter promo code Bs for fifteen percent off your first order. And once again wanted to mention the big picture podcast. Our new movie podcast hosted by Sean fantasy. He interviewed Steve McQueen who has a movie I right now called widows or it's coming out that everybody's really excited about I can't wait to see it. It's a heist movie, but Steve McQueen from from twelve years, a slave and just really get it making moves so he talked about that with Sean. But if you like lame Goldman we liked them too. And we love movies hair, and that's our movie podcast. And I think we have some good conversations on there. So check that out right now, we're gonna talk to Wasim Morris who went a poet surprise. Is for film criticism? And and also enjoyed Goldman. And we're gonna talk about the time. We went to lunch of them in a couple other things here. He is. All right on the line right now, my old grantland teammate. Now, the New York Times was Lee Morris in two thousand fifteen in April you enemy and Goldman went out to lunch at cafe balloon, which was the place that he always insisted on go into because it was one of the best n is one of the best restaurants in Europe. But more importantly, it was like a block from his house, and I had been dying to get you guys together. Because I was like this be the greatest unrecorded podcast of all time about movies. I think we were there for is it three hours, and it was like. I wish we shut it down. We shut lunch down. It was it was honestly, one of the great launches in my life. It was so much fun. I wish we had recorded it. But what do you remember about that? Well, I remember. I remember it was a beautiful day. And you couldn't tell it was a beautiful day because Kevi balloon is, you know, it's one of those New York restaurants where you can't see really outside. Very well. And so you're grateful to have the interior. I was in in. So you're like, you're just a captive audience for this person. And he was I mean, how what would he have been at that point eighty? He would have been eighty five I eighty four eighty five and he everything's still worked in his his his brain was great. He had. I don't know. I remember him. I remember just sort of not really talking a lot. I mean, your memory does might be different. But I remember just kind of being very in awe of him. I remember it. I've known you for a while. Now that was the most quiet I've ever seen you for for tuna three hours Isaac think remember not talking much. It was like Goldman jukebox. We were just like eight nine Robert Redford news this go and you go for ten minutes. They're like B B. Two isn't Julia Roberts making better movies right now poem go. And it just was that was it for it was just a it was fifty year history of the movie industry. Basically, we were just happening into it is pretty great in the reason. I was so quiet was because. I don't know. I mean, you never really know. I mean, you know meeting. Somebody you admire is is a total chemical thing. Like, you just don't know how you're going to respond to meeting anybody till you meet them. I'd never fantasized about meeting. William Goldman ever. You know there. I keep a tiny little list is like two people on a list were like living in New York. I am terrified I'm gonna run into them. Because I don't know what I'm gonna do if it happened. And it's funny because Julia Roberts. They. It's like Jili Oprah used to be one of those people, but I've I've encountered Oprah. So I haven't been able to avoid her. So I kind of know what the experience of being in a space with her as like and Julia Roberts is the other person or you're just like Toni Morrison's another person. Like were you just I just don't wanna meet Tony Moore's, and I don't want him until he Roberts. I just don't because I'm gonna make a fool myself. And I don't want to experience that the Goldman was one of those things where I totally could've just flipped out in it. I would've told him like I kept a misery poster on my bedroom wall in in ninth and tenth grade 'cause you know, I love misery, which is the crazy movie to love. But it really messed me up too. Great. And I also think that that's just a perfect book adaptation. Yeah. It's true. Critics movie critics the stuff he was writing loop con, I just talked about it. How his criticism was always just complete full honesty, and he didn't care for feelings were hurt. But he wasn't trying to do viciously. And that's a really hard bounce to find. I think on the internet. The last twenty years that balance has shifted where the viciousness becomes part of it, you know, in the wrong hands, but with him, it was super honest. This is just how I feel and if you feelings get hurt I'm sorry. And that was how he did it. And that's something, you know, you've you've taken down some movies and some tropes over the years. You've kind of held onto that to do you think that started with him the movie criticism? Or power or piling kale? Do you think it started with her? And then he was kinda in that mix as well. I think they, you know, it's funny because nobody really talks about Goldman as a critic. I mean, he obviously was it's not like a like a mind blowing thing to to talk about an ass. But I mean, very few of the things I read about him in the last couple of days have talked about what a critic he was he just outspoken Hollywood person who'd like to talk like to say things about you know, how you know, what a crazy industry the film industry is. But I mean at the end of the day this man was a was a critic, and I mean, the style to the extensively. I mean, it was just total transparency. Like, you were having a conversation with this person's written word, although I have to say, I've never met a more verbose. I've never read a more of for both. Critic who also was who also wrote sentences that were missing. Kind of hard to follow. Sometimes. Yeah. It was it was there was disjointed nece to some of his right in that actually was like part of his style. Right. But but in terms of like, I mean, obviously, Pauley Gail a per look Andrews Air as Pauline kale. You know, Georgia Brown, even people Judith Crist who nobody ever talks about as being one of the great critics. I mean, they all sorta wrote in very conversational, but also. Somewhat more literary than your average conversation style and Goldman. But Goldman Goldman was later though. Yeah, they he was more like your, buddy. Right. I mean, and that was basically where most of these people I mean Sarah's in and and sometimes kale or more on the literary end of his style of of criticism. But you know, I mean, it wasn't like. The other thing that he did was he brought this kind of of experience to what he knew what he was talking about. He was both an outsider, Hollywood wise. But also, you know, a craftsman working within the industry and had the means by which to poke about what a weird place. It was. It makes me wish that there was more people who are in the industry who were willing to also write about a pretty fair Leslie in not care if they burn bridges or not, I guess you can do that. When you're the world's most successful screenwriter. You can just you reset fuck its own we're, but you know, he was doing this when he wrote the Broadway book in the late sixties. It was just kind of his style. He just never wavered from it. No matter how successful he became. I think it also matter that he was novelist. I I think that that sort of freed him from understanding leg. I mean, this is the person who, you know, one of our greatest ever screenwriters with also a person who didn't think that it was an art. But but a, but a, but a craft, you know, like, I mean, he made I don't make a distinction between you know. I think a piece I so fuck can be a work of art too. But I mean, he was using it to sort of make a distinction about what was important about the movie making process. But the other thing about him it sort of I think three to him to talk about what? The way the movie business worked with was. He he was just a cog. He was you know, he was one part of this larger apparatus, and he was you know in the seventies. He would have been like the second or third most important part of the apparatus, but nonetheless, he wasn't. He wasn't a director. And he wasn't a star. Yeah. I mean was the star screenwriter? But I mean, he just understood his place in the hierarchy of a movie production. Yeah. He had the whole thing about how they were the six pieces that made a movie, and if any of the six pieces fell apart the movie was going to be in trouble. But none again, we're none of them were a hundred percent crucially important because they still needed the other pieces, which I thought was a good way of putting it 'cause you need maybe. Yep. Yep. I mean, you can get away with a couple of those things not working that. Well, but if I mean, I don't know. I don't know. He he really seemed. I mean, even when I don't agree. With him. You know, the case with all people who write about a thing that you that you love or care about our know something about. Like, he was really thinking about it in this very interesting serious way. I need to seem to understand. He seemed to understand what was sort of mysterious and hard to understand about the movie business. You know, he the place of thirty that he that he worked from was just, you know, purely empirical he also worked at the Pentagon, which I think is another important. What what I mean? This idea of you mean, I'm going to sit here and have like I'm gonna I'm gonna oh do politics like in in the movie business. I worked at the Pentagon. I'm not gonna do that. This is this movie is crap movie stars are dumb, and you know, but they're also essential. And I don't ever problem saying that in the the cost me work. No. No, oh, well, I can still write novels loop gun. I talked about how when he wrote about stars. Whether it was sports or movies, or whatever like the he was attracted to start him the most. And the irony of a star is born which is a movie that basically is a movie about not just the plots about stardom. But it's about two stars kind of owning the screen in a really significant way, the two people I wanted to read about that movie were him, and you and neither of them wrote about it. So I'll just have to. I just have to imagine what both of you might have written. But that was like that Bradley Cooper performance in that movie was the kinda shit that he really dug. There's just like Bradley Cooper just being an eight list movie star in this movie. Just kind of owning it for two hours. Gama's he loved that Marta. I think. Yeah. No. I mean, he loves stardom. He, you know. I mean, he loved movies started meeting mate movies and a star. He wasn't one. But I mean, I think that he understood just how weird and random it is it just is completely strange thing to be a person who for whatever reason. A when a camera is on you, you come to life in a way that is just eight you can change people total entire body chemistry. You know, whose job it is to sit there. And and, you know, sit there and watch you read when he was also doing this to be audited during an era in which movie stardom had. I mean, he was at his height during an era in which movie started taking this really interesting turn into like, you know, most people that you consider movie star of the nineteen seventies. Where all. Very good actors like classically trained, very sort of serious craps people who you know. I mean, there were exceptions like right furred and not that he wasn't classically trained. But he also just you know, he's not a great actor and Warren Beatty is another one of those people like not a great actor. But obviously arguably a movie star. And he worked with all those people. He knew I was people. And so he had this kind of inside information about I mean, not inside information. But he he he knew. The people were and how they're an how their lives worked and also with their motivations and their motivations. And. And as they became a little too famous some of the some of the obstacles and some of the ways it could go. He could go wrong. Yeah. I'm gonna misread them. And I don't which is I just don't feel like that's going to happen again for somebody who's that entrenched in the actual business of making movies and also made some awesome movies. But was also had the ability to write about them in a way that you know, made you think, and I just don't think that happens again because there's some people have too much to lose now. And especially with the way the internet is somebody did that once I think the industry would would not take kindly to that. Right. It's just not realistic. No. I mean. Nope. I mean, I I don't know about that though. I wonder I mean everybody is so sensitive now. And I think that part of that had to do in the seventies. I mean, people people were used to kind of like great big film criticism. And I mean, people were used to greet the criticism all of all kinds, right? It wasn't just in the movies. I mean, all most sort of serious critics were just you know, they were really good at their jobs and part of being a really good at your job is being. Unambiguously honest about. Whether something worked or not and why it didn't it didn't work. But I do think that you know, he did. I mean, we should be clear about I mean, not clear, but I do think I wonder whether or not the way we're talking about his freewheeling really exciting embracing way of thinking about what didn't didn't work about. So many different aspects of the movie industry's the movie. Interesting weather, it cost him anything. I mean, he did have a dry period. Yeah. Period where he was. Yeah. I mean, where he just couldn't get work now and then Princess bride misery happens, and then it rallies back get you're right. Maybe they did a huge part of that. Yes. So he had really bad writers black which is pretty open about writing about. Anyway, I know the feeling of Wesley. What are you? What are you working on? Now. I'm seriously contemplating getting this Michael Douglas story that I've already a year out of my life. Speaking of William Goldman. Yeah. I I I don't know. I'm I'm like momentarily obsessed with all the lessons to be learned from Michael Douglas, which you know, are many we should say that for different podcast because disclosure has been on cable recently. And I keep getting sucked in and it is the most dated movie. That's come out within the last twenty five years. It is just absolutely riveting. Oh, we gotta go on. I will. I will talk to you sued. All right, talk you later. Bye. One talk quickly about ZipRecruiter. The presenting sponsor of this show. Jobsites overwhelm us sometimes with tons of the wrong resumes. That's ziprecruiter. There's a smart way to get ZipRecruiter dot com slash Bs. They find people threads cause for your job. They actively invite them to apply. Qualified candidates fast right now, my listeners can try ZipRecruiter for free. It's dot com slash B. S? Ziprecruiter, the smartest way to hire. And since we're here holiday season coming up go to the ringer dot com. The ringer dot com slash shop, and you can buy t shirts sweatshirts, hats, stickers. What else? Do we have on their Kyle hoodies? Hoodies zip of. Yeah. All that stuff. You have anybody in your life loves the ringer, go to the ringer dot com slash shop to check out our burgeoning merge store that is a curated by the one and only Alex -ly. Anyway, here is a two thousand eleven podcasts that I did with. We've Goldman I told the story about how I basically dragged him on. He's not wanna come on. It was right after the Oscars. And right after the next guy Carmella, we're jumping into this Ed about like, the three and a half minute, Mark. And it's going to go for about. I don't know. I don't know twenty four twenty five minutes, and then we're also going to run a two thousand fourteen so I'll come back before we do that one. But here's the one the only Bill Goldman. I don't know. You know, the Academy Awards are always what they are. And I happen to think they're too short. I think they're fun. I think they're humiliating. I worked at one year. And it was it was an amazing year because Charlton Heston the longer with us was the head of the academy. And he was the speaker at cetera any one of the one of those amazingly people and he was late. That I was standing there when the produce over to Mr. Eastwood and said, would you take over for Chuck, and he said sure, so we went up and started reading lines of dialogue, and they were Moses jokes because they've been written for Histon. No finally Histon came raging in in this tuxedo. He gotten a flat tire on the freeway. Now, this is such a Los Angeles thing he gotten a flat tire on the freeway, and no one would stop to pick him up. He Charlton Heston Charlton Heston Innotech Saito on the freeway at like, four o'clock and no one picked him up. And finally, maybe it was three o'clock with a beautiful after note. Finally, someone took him to the academy cable. But that was maybe the high point. I mean, that's such a great Los Angeles story 'cause how many people are going to be wearing tuxedos in the maybe a lot of people. Do I don't know. But but has to do the nobody picked up in Eastwood doing Moses jokes. I'll bet you. If you ask Eastwood, no he would remember doing Moses jokes when you when you want to nineteen seventy for Butch Cassidy? Yes. But I didn't you don't even go. Well, I could've gone. I didn't go because the Knicks in the play offs. What? Oh, yeah. It was a he was the first championship here. And I was a friend of. Elat very great. Dave the butcher, and we were playing for the championship the Nixon always stunk. And there was no way. I love it. Anyways, a long long time ago. And it was not that easy to get the lowest. He plays, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I couldn't listen dictate. So it didn't go that is I have never heard that story that is one of the great spoiler. Do it again game. It was it was I know I know those definitely define us. So the Oscars must have been later back. Then earlier there might have been a it was that was such a great team, and I fell in love with them. And there was no way no way. I was going to miss a Nick Nick championship. But then you run for all the president's made out for that. Lawrenson linked to win. What happens? Well, I remember if you ever saw the movie one of the great things that okay when you're working at a feel it a flick. Okay. There about six of us who are very important to the movie, obviously, the director, the producer the writer, but very very important as a cinema talker and come at all no longer with us a list. Honey, did all he did Cassidy if you ever saw that movie there's a signal to bicycle riding Catholic around, and it's so beautiful because cutting it was such a great dog river, and I'm getting to the point like the deep throat scenes at all the presence, but we're fabulous looking because kind of shot them so brilliantly. I think I basically said something like that. I would never been up there without code red and got the hell off because I. I hate willing speeches hit it. When people start blabbing about their mother there in that. We don't care, right. You know this show, you know, whether any terrific speech is listed. I can't think of any. I actually Tom Hooper speech is pretty good speech was well, I love the guy who's younger that I was the script for that invade the had some funny jokes about age. It seems like the British show is prepared when they have to speak. It's one of those things where the odds fig about the Oscars last night. Is there really weren't any upsets except for the director thing. I mean, king speech was supposed to win what they won. And I thought inception with in a win all the big moments that I thought that even get nominated for some of them. Yeah. I thought I've prayed that Aaron Sorkin with win for script because it was such a brilliant script for Facebook. And now when you saw that movie, obviously, you're from a different generation did the whole Facebook. They did you even know that much about it. When you saw learning flowers theme Facebook, I've never I've never twinkie, and I've never Facebook. I don't do that. And I mean, I do Google I look up stuff on Google time. But I mean, no, I know, and I just thought I had no idea how much was true or not true. I just thought it was insatiable movie. And i've. Thought that opening scene in the of the boy and the girl in the bar in Boston, this it was just errands, circuit holier could write this at least he got rewarded but fincher? Yeah. I thought he'd do Hooper's it a hell of a job. But fencer. I he was the only upset I think isn't that. Right. There was anybody else? I mean, there was a chance somebody said something interesting to me Warren Beatty is having. Having one of the bizarre great film career. And I don't think babies moving at ten years, and he was a judge giant star. And somebody said if it had been ten years ago, he might have been able to hustle award for his wife actress. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But she, you know, it was really I thought Portman was brilliant, and is insanely beautiful and smart and gave a lovely speech. I thought she was well, you know, what I'm living till I added she would I thought it was remarkable work. I think the an Benning people seem to think that was going to be upset because you know, everybody thinks the academy is a bunch of old farts at black swan met have been a little too weird for them. Yes. And maybe they, but I guess I guess kids. All right, wasn't exactly normal movie. I thought it was swell. I've thought it was a really nice move. I don't know. I thought most of the movies up this year where really quality flicks. And one of the things that's wonderful about them is that they're doing business. It's the first time that I can remember the films that are up the quality films that are up for the Oscars. I mean, the fighters don't business and black floods speeches. You know, they've all and that's wonderful who last year, the wonderful movie on blocked on the name that what if a woman directed it. She the the Catherine the Cameron's ex wife Golo, no business. It didn't. I think it is seventy million dollars the hurt locker. Yeah. Nobody went to see it. I think the Oscars helped it, but this year for reasons, I don't know. But awful lot. The people who've been going to quality flicks and not all of them were doing business, but it's the pricing that any of them do well used to write one of my favorite favorite favorite Collins of all time that is now alive and two bucks. But you wrote for New York magazine you'd right basically, these big picture pieces about the movie business where it's going. You know, you split it up. So you'd have a common this spring before the summer movies, then a common the fob before the Oscar moved out, and then in a big part of those columns is trying to figure out from a big picture standpoint. Where things going and it's. Interesting. Interrupting the things is today. Right. As we speak. I think there's only one star. And that's never happened history of. So I think Will Smith is the only movie star left. Wow. By which I mean. What they say out there. The execs about a movie is did it open. That means did the first weekend. Do terrific business because that's the crucial thing for a movie, and it used to be the way with dR and Tyrone power Mickey Rooney, you know, we have a fame. This is true. I think right now you could argue that the two greatest stars that ever lived. Fetish there in John way, would be unemployable. There hasn't been a movie that you would have wanted. John Wayne for since the Eastwood western I think in ninety three and they don't make musicals anymore. They're gonna do we had a time back in the thirties and forties and fifties. We had loads of movie stars. And right now. We have Will Smith. We'll with the only one I think you wouldn't put the Capri. Oh in real you look at some of the movies, these they don't. But I mean, sure. He's done something. He's has huge hits. But so is the Nuro, but they have turds. So it's Pacino there really an actors, but they'll have movies that pay. So you can say if it's a certain like the night, the next Faulk will be that comes out. You could see oh, there's a lot of is for dinner with their methods. There isn't. But right, that's different. I mean, it used to be you know, I used to write years ago who's the biggest star was a Tom Cruise. It wasn't this winter that would know we never know women. There were women who say oh my God. If we could just get Julia Roberts, their performance, I love, but I don't think I don't think they're only women out there. They're gonna open pictures. I really saying you're saying everytime Will Smith opens a movie no matter what it is. It's going to do. Well, and that's what gives them the pole position. Yes. I think what happens is if you'll go over and check Will Smith will be over the last ten years. They may not do tremendous business overall. But if you'll check them they all, but there's an audience for Will Smith. And that's why it doesn't matter. What he does. That's why Wilson I think right now. And this is never happened before the only time mean when you think of it. I just I saw the first two grit recently and John Wayne. John Wayne for someone of my generation was a huge huge movie star. You know, he knew we couldn't act. Well, maybe new Shakespeare, but he could walk and he could talk and all that stuff. And then. Think about a what movies are out there. Now that you would say, oh John way was great in. The kids are all right? I don't think. So I mean, maybe he'd probably be the dad from meet the Falker, it'd probably be that put that that's not the kind of movie that that John Wayne used to do John Wayne used to be that was the guy you went to see. But there were a lot of there were a lot of guys who were Jimmy Cagney. I mean, Bogart what am I heroes then the cover star till very late. I think he was thirty four or five before we got lucky, and he only got lucky I think is George Ray up being stupid. Right. But so he was kind of the Clooney pass. That's right. They'll be bloomer path. It's really true. It's one of those things. One of the things that happens out there. This is a series of mine, the two best stars I've ever worked within ninety years of movie work are pulling the within Clint Eastwood, and my theory about is the reason they're so terrific and professional is because they didn't make it when they were kids. I mean, if you're a movie star, and all of a sudden, you're twenty two years old and everybody was to you. If destroys you and Eastwood, I think was twenty seven or eight before we got ride new one. I think only got his break because there was a Jimmy dean stepped out of a movie in new I think twenty seven or eight got it. And I ran that theory by Amanda, why met lovely van George Clooney, and I read my theory past that he said oh God. Yes. If I made it when I was twenty three I'd be dead and clue. When he didn't make it till he was in the wonderful medical TV show when he was thirty years old. And I think with a lot of these kids out there when they make it when they're your if not necessarily a good six would you apply that theory to basketball players? Well, the Brian James making it at eighteen might not have been the greatest thing that ever could happen to. Well. I think he's a very very great player. But I mean, Larry real Newin. No, some said that the two most physical athletes he'd ever seen in basketball where Wilson the liberal. We had a liberal. It is. I mean, we'll was freakish. You can do every, you know, he could just do things nobody else, but liberalism, they think I don't know. I don't know why the heat aren't better do now hold this thought because I want one more movie thing. And then we'll move to this. Go just say heading in two thousand eleven you pointed out these dramas are now making money. Yes. And we I mean, I could list seven eight nine movies that did a lot better than I think the studios thought is are we headed toward maybe more those in three D movies, and maybe some slapstick comedies, and those are the three movies that come out now. It's interesting because I want you gotta understand something of that studio heads, there's really smart, and they also know that if they screw up enough times, they're going to get fired, and they won't be able to get into all the good restaurants that sounds like basketball jeans. Well, it's true, but they weren't desperately the studio heads they wanna make movies that will keep them in business next year and the year after I don't think I mean. Ville nobody thought some of these movies. We're going to do the kind of business do I mean, they're they're commercially successful. Yeah. And that's that's a wonderful thing. If you can have a picture that's up for the Oscars. That's making you money. That's haven't and that doesn't happen much. And I think next year. I maybe neck not actually but the year after because it depends on what scripts they're going to get. I think they'll make more movies like this, and hopefully they'll continue to do business. I don't know. Here's theory. I think t- as we've talked about none of the podcast, but TV over the last ten years is kinda overtaken movies a little bit at the place that you go if you want to get really quality acting quality writing. Yes. And now, maybe some of these movies that are being made. Now are almost a reflection of that as possible. It is possible. I mean jeeze if you look at the let me the one thing, I think is really stupid is the notion that we have to have ten pictures up for best picture. Yeah. Five it's ridiculous. But if you could have made a list of those five and say, wait a minute, really quality pictures. I mean, I haven't seen Toy Story. I hear it's wonderful. I mean, you can just go on. So he would hit, but that you kind of expect, but these other movies, it's wonderful that the five I thought the fighter was when I went to the movie theater. And I that there I didn't think it was going to be that terrific. And then suddenly my hand was taken off. I mean, I love Abyan, Melissa, Leo. I thought Walberg was marvellous. I thought you know, it wasn't Barbara this movie, and it's doing business boxing movie for crise. And I was thrilled. I was thrilled. We got screwed. I think that Affleck wrote and directed and started we'll be called the town. Right. It's a terrific flake, and it's did business. And I wish it had been one of the ten movies have gotten over there. But let's I'm glad you brought him up because let's solve the urban legend right now about you and goodwill hunting. Yes. Did I write it? Yes. It's all my no every but it was nutty thing. That happened because. Those two kids were on eleven twenty. And they were you know, gorgeous and talented. No one wanted to believe that they'd but that's grabbed. Right. And so I spent a day with in which I said what rob Reiner incentives them because Castro we're going to do the movie, but that with south I did nothing. But I was so staggered when when the gossip came up at I in written this. They only said think about that story is I wish they write another movie 'cause they're really gifted. I mean, they're having marvel careers, and I wish they write a good. Well, what you did tell them. You gave them one note that I think they use correct? Well, there was in the original script Damon part the FBI was after because he was a math genius or something and rob Reiner. When he read it said get rid of that at all, I said. To them was Rob's, right? Get rid of that stupid business with the BI. Stay with the characters up in Boston. They did. And it was a marvelous success and their careers of exploded since I mean Aflac after this year. I think he say forever because you love when people come back, you think when the when you have the initial success, then the the precipitous drop, and then the comeback golden after that. Well, I think the town was such a terrific movie. He's so good in company mid which is another terrific movie. I just think whatever it was that. They did that was done. Whatever those movies. He did with Lopez or whatever. Yeah. Do that anymore. You know what I mean? I mean, he's going to be I think everybody wants to have him in a direct for them. I would if I was a studio guy. And I think there are a lot of people out. There are going to want Ben Affleck. And I bet he has a movie this next coming you win it. So you had like about ten twelve year stretch when everybody used to come to you with with their scripts, please help me out give us when idea I mean, basically called reregister rewrite them or just suggest that sounds like the greatest job ever. Well, it was it was it was a period of time. You know, I I got very lucky 'cause my my first movie was pulled it when picture call Harper, which was says, it may second movie was Butch Cassidy, the western which is the most successful single ever be connected with and I was novelist. I think the thing that only thing different about me is I never saw a script until I was thirty three years old now screenwriters are retiring before their thirty three. But I was so far out of it that when I got screenplays I thought, well, I you know, 'cause I'd been anomalous for ten years. And it was it was a different world for me that was interested. And then basically I've written a lot of movies over the decades. But I, but I think right now, it's I would not be very happy. If I was twenty five years old starting to go to I think, it's a hard time to be screened wetter. I think it's just. It's difficult Billick price. They don't know. I mean, I don't think anybody. I mean, there are certain things. I can't right? I've never the George Lucas film. I couldn't do that. I can't right inside six hundred. I've never written a flat out comedy funny there occasionally last and something all right? But it's not like the companies that are kinda got. But. We're going to see what happens it could be that this year was a freak year. And it could be that this year was the start of a bunch of quality films to things that you've always written about that. We just I feel obligated mentioned one is that it drives you crazy that we don't know the votes for the movies now much the movies one by how much the actors God forbid they ever told us. I don't know why they don't I really I written. And I really believe it. Why don't they tell us? It will. Oh, we we really it was close for this guy. I would love to though that. And I don't even care if tell us today, they could tell us in six months. And I feel it. They could unseal it like the JFK assassination documents tours later. Absolutely. I would just like to tell that. I think most people would. Yeah. And then the other thing, and you point this out they is that comedy's just get screwed over by the Oscars. When in fact, a movie like there's something about Mary is much harder to make than some of the dramas that was nominated this year. You're absolutely right. I don't know why people. I think people somehow think that comedy's easier. Let's write some funny, and it's so hard. It's so I mean, the idea the idea of writing something funny just. It's amazing and the accuracy hard to play hard to be funny. Yeah. You know, all that stuff. It's hard to write fully. And then like the either the fairly brothers like they basically had a ten year drought. Now, it looks like hall pass is gonna do out. But I hope for it comes into goes. Let's go quickly to your beloved Knicks now five years ago, your seats are under the basket had them forever. Just five years ago you near the got trampled in the Carmelo Anthony Mardy Collins, Nate Robertson that whole disaster. And now he's on your team. No, he's on the team. And I don't. What I don't know is I think. I think you've been to New York. It's a hard place to work. I mean, I mean, I don't mean that any I don't mean it's not hard to work in Denver. But you don't have all the newspapers and all the TV guys and all the twenty four hours stuff going on. And if he has a bad game, it's going to be headlines in the sports section of the papers at cetera et cetera. And right now, there's stuff about his wife, a wonderful. She is and she's got her TV shows that cetera. But what if he starts thinking it up? I don't think he will. I don't think he will. But I mean, you worried that it's too sensitive. I just think it's very hard. If you're not used to playing in New York City to play in New York City has been media here is so tough. They are they, you know, just hard. But on the flip side, the phones are great. If it's in you the fans to bring it up. Oh, yeah. You gotta understand the the game that the other game the first game at home when we would come Il. It was it was the most exciting. I've been going since the sixties. It was the most exciting time since we since we well left it. Yeah. I mean, it was just the crowd was crazy. I'm very excited 'cause Wednesdays another game. And I want to see how we do. I mean, no an expected us to win this game last night. And. We played wide or tomorrow night. And that's scary. And then we I don't know. It's fascinating because yes, they are crazy knick fans, and they love it. And we've been so awful we've been so awful for ten years. I'd here's the last one. This is from a two thousand fourteen podcast. We did right after right before the Oscars. Actually, I got him to come back on again. It was it was the Oscars year of gravity. I think and and that was the last time he came onto pod. I should have had him on more. It was always it was always like too much of a challenge to get him to come on. It's just I don't know. I should've tried harder. 'cause he was great both of these times. So here's a couple of different snippets of this one. Is it was right after Philip Seymour Hoffman died, which is how I got him to come on. 'cause he loved Hoffman. So he's gonna talk about him. And then we're going to talk about movies in general, and that's going to be. I don't know how big this is the story is Los Angeles, Chicago. But in New York because he's a local kid or was it's just huge and all the papers on television. And I think. It was gonna die. Right. We didn't know where we knew we was say chal talent. But we didn't know we. Well. Yeah. That's good. That was terrific. I love what he did in this play play. But he'll try that. And he'll do the other thing. And then all of a sudden, it's all taken away. He was almost like one of those athletes that is his cranking out big seasons year after year. But you don't really kinda realize that that that the breath of the career, you know. True. I mean, I was talking with some people run with intone. Yeah. And I hate him so much so great. And you look at it only hit him because he didn't come to work. I now he spurned you know, what he did for me. But look at him, and you see on the I mean, the greatest players probably too soon to say where LeBron rates, but he's up there. But the greatest players I ever saw where Wilton Michael Jordan, and they were free to and said, I think LeBron may be one, and when you have one of those people are off, but when you have somebody who's really greatly gifted they don't come along off it, and you better you better treasure the world here because there's no law that says something that. That neither one we last couple of years ago. Heath ledger, different points in their career. He's ledger was embarking on this whole career. I don't think he'd his prime yet. It was terrific. But I don't think he just put. I think I don't think anybody thought. Was going to get much better. Because you couldn't get much better. I don't know what parts he could've played next. I don't know. I don't know. What is mission was obviously, he was not a happy camper. Yeah. We didn't know that you know, he had. Yeah. The three kids the lady with for fifteen years, and he lived in the city, but you never you never read about Phil doing million being drunk in a bar or this or that. He was just this actor who acted a great deal in this theater. A great deal of this. Thank god. And we still. Let's go see him. But that right. And I think what would have been interesting with his career. The next fifteen years was as he age the roles that he was taking. Would have been this whole second incarnation as. Character actor that stuff. I would've loved to have seen. What parts he picked? I mean, what did he decide to do next? It's it's heartbreaking musical because when any world whether it's sports or theatre movies. When a great talent comes alo-, we're blessed because they don't come along with it. And you better you better treasure them because should happen. So who is the best actor alive right now? They lois. It's pretty good. I was gonna say Livia. I don't know. Like, oh, yeah. Let me is still alive. Always always effect right now. I'm in alive living right now. I wouldn't. I don't know. I mean. I don't think Pacino's wonderful. I don't know. It's hard. I wouldn't know if I can think of what. It's not that was over. Where do you stand on the Tom Hanks thing? Well, I saw him in his Broadway show, and he was really swell. You're always you're always terrified when a movie star comes to New York because the theater is so different. And you don't know gonna make it ask yourselves how they're going to be wonderful. Tom Hanks play was swell. He was really soil. I know some people were around it. It was a very happy group of people that were with him. And he was terrific. And I thought Jesus Christ. What I came out of the theater thinking, it's gonna be really fucking. Never know never know that where we don't know. How much stuff they have around them to make that work? We are they taller short. Do. They look like, so I don't know. It's just it's different when they come to New York, or when they do theater what about live. Oh, he's a wonderful actor. But I don't know. I mean, he's wonderful. I would never. You know, if when it comes to New York, I'll always go to and I always go see movies. You don't know. It's one of those things where. That'd be part that he played that often play really will. The real play in. Arguably the greatest where can play and. Seeing him do it with startling because. He was so good. It was so. Where do you stand on these David Russell move is? Because they always have incredible performances. They have these really really rich colorful scenes that you remember that are Chiappa to flee that this year. Here. Well, American hustle, but. The overall movie is kind of easy the kind of incoherent to some degree. You know what I mean? Yeah. I think. You know, he's terrific director. No, he's done. He does really really good movie and. I like the fighter. I liked Huckabee. I heard Huckabee, you know, he does he does really quality stuff several linings playbook. Yeah. No. He's. He's one of those guys. I think basically is is very gifted. He's a very gifted. He'll Pissy might get a new form of well, I guess like maybe rabbit alma people like that. It's of that kind of John Rao, but they kind of scripts that you wrote were very cut and dry scripts with a certain structure, his seem Mike it. They're almost like, I know they're not add living the scenes, but it almost gives you that feeling like he's just unleashing the actors on these weird part. He's very gifted these listen. Here's the thing that nobody has to realize. It's fucking hard being a director. Yeah. Because nobody wants to do your movie you've got to you've got to do with the studio and the studio to think about this studio guys is they're all smart. But they all know if they make the lone ranger they're gonna get fired because the lone ranger lost, I guess hundred and fifty million dollars this year. And they thought it was going to be a gigantic it I wrote a lie wants to cut out there. Which is true. Nobody does anything. None of us have the least idea what's going to work. And so it's always a crapshoot. It's all the crapshoot. That's why it's why stars have plot movies. It's why directors foot, but we all do. I mean. No, I mean, even Steven Spielberg is slow moving to enjoy Lucas. And it we liked think they're just amazing. They having remarkable career. But who knows they don't know? If you could only protect one person for the next ten years. Would you? Protect Jennifer Lawrence or Kevin Durant. I think Kevin into rid. I think that would resting you keeping Kevin Durant. You're getting ready to Jennifer Lawrence. Well, I'm not getting really we're choice of to me. She's only twenty three I think, you know. And she's a very talented kid. We don't know one of the things about these people. In the world. They live up there. I don't like Los Angeles. I'm a terrible driver. And. I'll tell my favorite awful Hollywood story about there for the first time like fifty years ago, and I'm walking with a hotshot young producer. And he says the we're going to arrest for lunch and he says the following quote shit. Here comes Alfred Hitchcock. Let's cross the street. So I don't have to say Hello to that. We crossed the street. Now, you gotta understand Hitchcock. Why never met obviously? We'll see hero of movie. And I thought that was the stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard of again noodle around in. This thing was it made sense because Hitchcock with no longer at that stage of his career the superstar director he had been commercially. And the young producer wanted to be a superstar producer, and he was terrified. Somebody would see him with Hitchcock and say, oh, my God is desperate. He's working with him. And that's the way they are out. There is a very strange thing. They want to. They want their careers to continue. And they don't nobody's done. It's very weird world because it's all crap shoot. I mean. Whatever movies are coming out at three would from now. I have no idea what they are every executive at every studio thinks oh my God. I think this is gonna be it. Flop if nothing flop. The studios are gonna fire 'cause the rich guys who own the studios won't be surrounded with people being hit. So I mean, I don't know. I mean, there's a movie on desperate to see. It's opening this week, the George Clooney wrote it, and I guess it monuments bit I'm worried about that one. Well, I am too. I hope it's wonderful. I don't know anybody who was seeing it regardless. But I think it's a fabulous idea for movie, and I hope it work, but nobody has at least idea right now is it gonna open. They didn't screen it for anyone. And they dumped in February two red flags. Yeah, you're right. And thanks if it's it we'll say, well we wanted to keep a special. I don't know. I I live in New York in the movie business teams, sixty three. Yeah. And it's always it's just same. I mean, it's like. I'm only meant to stars at all these years. I had nothing. Nothing nothing. But wonderful about one of them was Paul Newman the longer with us and the other one is pleased with and they were totally professional. No ego. Very gifted writers directors and actors, and but a lot of them are not you don't wanna meet a lot of the Hollywood Spillers. I'm glad you brought up Newman because somebody sent me this question for my mail bag. And I thought it was awesome. I'm going to tweak it a little bit. Go Hollywood comes to you. And they say, look, we are remaking Bush casting in the Sundance kid which you wrote in. And you win the ask her for we're doing this. We're cutting check for one hundred million dollars. And the only thing we're asking for muses, which to actors are we casting. And you have to tell them which to actors, they're casting the movies happen. Anyway, you can't stop it. Who are the I don't know who are you to actors who plays Sundance? I think I actually do know. But I was interested to see if you'd have the same age. I think it's Clooney and pit okay. They'll be good. But I don't know. I think I think Clooney's Butch. Pits sundance. Yeah. That's good. Which one of those things where? We're. We're making Butch Cassidy and the wonderful late towards ill is the director. And we became friendly that we both liked the movie and it got fucking killed by the critic, most vicious reviews ever. Really? Oh, yeah. One of the reasons was I don't know if. I got paid for two thousand dollars for this play. That is still a lot of money. Now, people know that that's that was the most anybody ever gotten. I green play. But at that time, it was phenomenal record breaking in the critics all wrote these shitty things about it thing. Why would Hollywood so stupid that kind of money for script when we all go the actors make up all the good times. The directors have all the visual, which is what they really thought in those years and anger continue. Just terrible George. We're walking the day at open that we were in despair because we both like the movie we didn't think it was the brothers MAs of. But we both really liked it. It was playing two theaters in New York and east side in the west and we tap into stop by the would each side endured said. Let's go in and talk the energy. So we did in Georgia USA the manager about consent. Alot George George said do why are you smiling in the manager theaters because we're selling on every production every showing in the audience lows. We were stunned in George to say, you know, on Broadway. Guy said I'll call up the manager over. So he comes back in a few minutes instead fame deal filling out every performance in the audience. We think it would walk into that. I george. We came to our part, but we separated Georgia. Maybe it isn't a disaster. That I've always that. That was one of the great lines because nobody knows right? I mean, I just love that George way hill and there so. They're so different. Both people out there. If they're New Yorkers and they live out their their life because so strange and. Queen story. Great story, I was out there. And he wanted to meet with base way to airport drivers stop. I mean it with liquid was lovely. They left is good about it. I got back into car subtly. He was the bigger star in the world at this book subtly. He comes running on office billing screaming, wait, wait. Wait, wait. And I told her driver to wait. Go ahead. How am I gonna find you in New York? Nice to I'm in the phone. And I can still see him. A look staggering surprise face. And he literally fell backwards way. All it was filled out because I really realize Steve McQueen it finally been ten years before we had met anybody since it was in the phone book 'cause stars are not in the right? And you know, big deal people. And if you're seeing with Queen you only want is associated with other big deal people. Yeah. But that's one of my favorite Hollywood. Oh, I flew like God. I mean, it's a it's a weird life. They lead it affects the quality of what they choose to make. And you know, as you say, you know, by the way, I'm keeping away past year at time. We're still going go talk about the Knicks yet. What's interesting by your career because you did all these great things you wanna couple asks me a lot of money to become the dean of screenwriters future. Ones that stuff both go get the really Princess bride in a weird way has become your generation a legacy because at some point when little kids they hit some age between for my daughter. I think it was six for my son was four just because he does everything she does. But every kid watches that movie. Now, it's like between DVD's Blu rays, apple TV net. Flicks. Whatever if you make anything that's one of the best of those kids movies. They're all going to see it. So I would say I would say more people have seen Princess Brad in the last eight years than of probably seen it in the twenty five thirty years, whatever before it, a wonderful. I love the fact that kid like it. It was not. I was like a little I wanna say eight five, and I said, all right. It was story. What do you want to be about one of the Princess bride? So I said that'll be the title. And I wrote a couple of pages that I got stuck. And then a couple of months later, I went back, and it opened filth to me. And I wrote it very quickly, and it feel thing I've ever written that I really could look at without barf. Most proud of it. And I love the fact that kids like it. I just knew it was nothing what it came out. It was in the movie. No, it's a famous movie, but it was not a famous. It was not a Spielberg picture. And quick spiel spill who wanted to know. We that he directed. Which is the biggest most important Philip was Jillette with Joe has changed the way movies this summer time with all kinds of and it was a famous faster while they were shooting it yet. It was just a legendary pieces shit to the boat wouldn't work in the water was terrible. Well, when I went to see it. It was the first screening. And I thought it was in facial. And it was funny because the thing of joys was it was such. It wasn't just a phenomenal hit and it didn't change whatever came out in the summertime. It's shocked everybody 'cause the quote Bill go, but nobody knows any. With Princess bride. You said Robin rate at that particular point her life was the most beautiful women who ever lived you still stand by that. Oh, not even close. I was out there with Brian. Or did so brilliantly directing it, and we were trying to cast buttercup, and these, you know, I live in New York and drills. Look like these girls these breath-taking women came into report, and they were or just, but they weren't what we were looking for. I came back and you at call me a couple of weeks later and said you gotta look at this early. Or part. But I think he was there for ten seconds. I called him and said grabber 'cause she was at that time. I still think you know, she's not a dog know about Robin in those years was so so she was breath particularly beautiful yogurt. And you think she would have been one of the biggest actresses about time. If she didn't aside the is family, and if you wanted to be famous, I don't think she did. I don't think I don't think Robin had. To be a movie star. You've got to want it more than anything. And if you don't want it more than anything. It's not necessarily a great life. I mean, they make a lot of money, but maybe shit. It's I never asked her. But I don't think she did. We're spending to the next. Say that again, we're spending it to the Knicks. Okay. I'm doug. But then you're done because I already like eight minutes past what I promise. This was really good. This is one of the best supports in a while. So the next year I can't even describe how traumatized you are. You just have to get the random phone calls from you and the random emails from you every once in a while for people to fully understand, you just you just can't believe it. You just can't believe that this isn't getting better. And that you have to watch this unwatchable team these that don't really like. And and there's no real way out. I mean, how are you handling the season? Well, it's very hard. I mean, it's just very hard. I've been going since sixty became a dear friend of beloved, David David Wishart did. And I followed that early that very very very great with the Bush, Bradley, and Willis and all those people Prater liberal. Everybody like that. No. And I've stayed I stayed with an x pretty much all those years will. And I've got wonderful seats at the garden, and I like going there like to get there early to be like a half an hour before game time and watch the garden fill up, and what's the kids come out and practice and then the game starts. Billow shoots. He's a great shooter. But if he passed a little or would that kill letter, though, it might it might actually kill him. No, it's just we're not. We're not we may make eighth place this year. It's tricky because the owner wrister dulling with Richland we are set at the beginning wanted a championship team, and everybody's terrified. He's gonna fire the coach we all like anyway. But it's his radio is it, and it's just tricky because. Very good Bill. Can I tell you? It's and there's not a lot of outs. There's a lot of draft picks. There's fan picks to trade. They is not cap space for at least one more year. I mean, if I was running the next you have all these all these big guys coming up have to two thousand fifteen you got Kevin love Durant, and Westbrook. Oh, my goal would be to not my cap Cava chance these, unfortunately, this was the strategy in two thousand ten and it led you instead of LeBron Wade and all. One of the things you've got to realize about them. This year. We're halfway through the season this year. We absolutely without bullshitting faking sold out every seat. Yes. Absolute sell out every day. I'm you know, they usually fake it. But this is real. And there was this thing in the paper. The Knicks are the most valuable franchise in pro basketball. I think they're worth one foot four billion dollars. It's gotta be pretty happy with that. Yeah. I don't know if he cares. I mean, that's what he's a businessman. That's what they care about it. You'd think I mean, he took over in two thousand one and you've won one playoff series. We load. That's. Of it. I love it. But you know, you'll get I can't imagine what it's like being in the Miami's they came to Tony other new looking at those teams a long ways going to be good for or great for. But. Lebron's just. Scene. Three grade players in my life Wilson, like little Umbro there. The three greatest players I've ever seen and they don't happen. If it's like in tennis, Roger Federer cable, you had to think oh my God. Please don't let them get hurt. 'cause those years when federal ten years ago, it was his great that need to player where wherever live and these kids these talents that happens overly or what? Pleasure. I think. Well, yeah. I've been thinking a lot about the pyramid. If I ever do another version of my book, and I by several like, I did here in the last one the I think LeBron has passed will. I think he is now number six and he's knocking on the door bird magic. And what's crazy is this is eleventh season bird, really only had ten seasons. Actually, he had nine. He got hurt played another one then to who's out Najib was twelve got HIV. He was out. The Brad is almost had a career that is as long as those guys which seems bizarre to think that, but it's a fact is four MVP's. He's won two titles ease for statistically is is better than those guys. He was better two way player than those guys. But we're pretty close thinks about LeBron make when you Steve. Is he can do everything it can run. You can rebounding pass. He could score thirty five points. Wanted to instead of twenty foot. I think he's just very very great. And thrilling would I see I think you I think you've lost your Lester for bird a little bit. You're the guy who wrote in one of my favorite sports books ever waits on next year with Lupica you wrote a pull chapter about how great bird was and how people were going to forget this Sunday because that's what people do with old athletes. And now you're doing it with birds. Maybe. But if we if we were sitting having drinks, I would start to remember he was very great. Well, if you if you were making your list of during the forty seven years, or whatever the Knicks tickets to can't miss guys passing through town that you just like what I know. I can't do anything that night because he's coming. It would be a shortlist bird would be on it. Correct. I love magic Jordan will who else is on the run. Lebron Durant on that list yet? I loved to read. I don't know if he wants, you know, one of the ten greatest that really. Well, you give ten greatest when you think he is. I think he can no talking about a rant. I think three insulin the greatest ever seen. Yeah. I need to see it for ten years. We'll till years ten. What he's doing this year? He's putting together one of the greatest offensive seasons ever of all time. He's thirty one a game, eight rebounds, five assists. Fifty forty ninety percentage is it's ridiculous. Very great. He's I'm giving my invade pivo. Yeah. Nice. Lebron gets mad and decides to flip the narrative. Well, eight listen, you weren't I don't you weren't nearly as traumatized sounding about the next as you are in phone call. I think you held back. I don't think you wanted to causeways. Yeah, we're done that was forty three minutes. That was unbelievable. What are your time is valuable? You're not gonna make a recording. This. We might we maker of Cardi plant Elvin hoosiers, limit favorite rat is ever my friend, a great advice giver over the years. Great tabby and the BS appoint we want. If you could send me a copy of love. I would absolutely do that. Thank you. All right. That's it for the golden extravaganza. Are that was so long? But man when you when when you have a hero, and he turns out to be even greater person, and a cool friend all that stuff that he just matches up to the expectations. It's pretty fortunate doesn't happen a lot. And he was he was great. I'm really gonna miss them. Learn a mention if you wanted to get any of the books that he wrote on apple or Amazon or any of those and try one out can you can check them all out the adventures screen trade which landed I tell in the big picture yet. Those which tell in the big picture more like collections, and they're more the last like twenty five thirty years, and then of course, wait till next year, which we talked about extensively earlier one of the all time classics. That's that one's much harder to get if the go to like the us bookstores. I don't even know if that's on the apple, but. That's that's an all time there, and that one still holds up I read like a hundred pages this weekend, and it still feels like he can rent anytime you want. So thanks to everybody who came on today. Thanks to ZipRecruiter. Don't forget ZipRecruiter dot dot com slash Bs. Thanks to fan dole. Remember, even if your fantasy season is gone kaput you can still play daily fantasy every week fan. Do as tons of ways to play like the gridiron pick them contests. Just pick winters. No spreads ten K. Is split amongst the tap pickers. If you've tried other DFS sites, and if you're not a fantasy expert try Fangio, it is clearly the place to play the users get a five dollar bonus when they make their first posit complete with me at fan. Doe dot com slash. B s that has fan deal dot com slash news. Only bonus not available for withdrawal, state nature. Restrictions apply for L eligiblity roles in terms and conditions. Do fan duel dot com. We're gonna have one more Bs podcast that we're dropping much later this week. Until.

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