The Hidden Life of Charlie Brandt
True. Crime brewery contains disturbing content related to real life crimes. Medical information is opinion based on facts of a crime and should not be interpreted as medical advice or treatment. Listener discretion is advised. County sheriff's office. The person being interviewed is Angela last name is brands and January third. I seventy Charlie was thirteen and Angela you were held fifteen tell me again, what place in what was going on. Okay. We just on the color TV. Right. We were all sitting around watching the FBI, you know, effortless junior and all that. At the I was over. We went upstairs I went and got in bed. Read my book always do before. I went to see my mom ran a bath. And read time magazine. My dad was shaving. You're in your bed reading and what happened next? I heard loud noises, which I perceived to be firecrackers for the simple reason that makes any sense. That's I mean, you know, what other loud noises, they're often. Yeah. Just don't really loud, loud noise. And I just I thought it was Packers. So I started pulling the covers back to see why on earth. You know, there was all this noise going on. But then I heard my father yell. Charlie dunked or Charlie stop, and my mom was just screaming and less than she ever. Heard. My mom was Angela call police. Whatever does I said, I was removing the covers from my dad and getting out of the bed and all the places split seconds. We couldn't. Visit got to be less than a minute. I would think. And I get an app I'm getting up. He comes into my room, Charlie brandishing the gun gun. I didn't even realize what it really was. I mean until we aimed at any pull the trigger quick. I am I say, and and I could hear click, and I guess when he realized the gun didn't have any more bullets that must be what he threw it on the floor. And as I said, I was lucid enough to kick it under the bed. I hope at any bullets in it or not I don't even know what was going on. And then a physical altercation, ensued. I imagine I think he struck me. I do I think he I had Ludd and just bruises. And I thought that the only physical altercation I've ever been in my entire life. Okay. And I get by one because I'm here to about it. I don't know. And I just still my brain. I remember only fifteen my brain was trying to assimilate. What was going on? And I was trying to get away from him at the same time is very strong next thing. I know that I can remember is I was laying flat on my back. My dad was right here on the floor. Probably knock me to the floor. I don't know any was sitting on me. Anyway, frankly, me, okay. Gifting out. I don't think that I got him off of me physically. I remember the way. I remember it is I saw the weird look on his face. The madness the glazed over look I thought to Sapir he just looked more like himself, and he said, what am I doing? Or what have I done and I remember perfectly? I don't know. But I think you've shot that. 'cause I heard my dad yelling Charlie don't do that or Charlie stock. And he said, oh, I did or whatever I said, I don't know. But get off of me. So we can figure. It out. Okay. And he did be got off next step. I was trying to get out of the house. He goes for. You're gonna leave me. Are you? No. And I did service. I was far enough away. I have you ever seen Texas chainsaw massacre. I saw once in my life. I never want it again, you know, the girls screaming screaming. I was just too little girl. I was running snow in my bloody down toward. Welcome to true crime brewery. I'm Jill, and I'm dick after this episode of true crime brewery checkout. The time suck podcast the time suck podcast explores true crime history. The paranormal and more hosts, Dan Cummins, deep dives into topics like shadow people Ted Bundy and fled the Impaler with some dark humor and intense research this week Dan looks at petro Lopez the monster of the Andes a serial killer thought to have murdered three hundred and fifty people. Listen to time suck wherever you. Listen to podcasts. T I M E S U C K podcast dot com. Every hour in the United States. Seventy five people are reported missing. What if there is a test force dedicated to bringing them home? That's the story behind the new original drama gone premiering, February twenty seventh on WGN America. It starts Kristoff and Danny Pino as well as newcomer Levin. Ramen. She portrays the newest member of the Salih team who herself is a survivor of childhood abduction. Don't miss the series premiere of gone Wednesday, February twenty seventh at ninety s- torn- eight central and WGN America. In nineteen seventy one thirteen year old Charlie brand shot his pregnant mother to death before turning the gun in his father into sister. In the years that followed he seemed to move forward and live a pretty normal life with college marriage into career, Charlie and his wife teary were very close fun loving couple. The kind that other couples would envy then in two thousand four his hidden life was revealed Charlie was not who he appeared to be. There was a darkness. No one had seen. But there had been signs Charlie loved to fish, and he was known to his fellow fishermen as an expert with a knife. But Charlie's expertise went way beyond the world of laying fish after his death. Charlie would be investigated as a prolific serial killer. Victimizing women along the Florida coast. He had a sexual obsession with his niece that would end in her brutal murder. Join us at the quiet end today for a fascinating story of a killer undercover. The hidden life of Charlie Brandt as beer is a beer for Miami. It's called it was all dream and is brewed by Jay Wakefield brewing. And it's a stout. I know I slipped. But I couldn't resist. This is their kind of their basic stout aged in bourbon maple syrup barrels with coffee, coconut inventory and just to make this a fairly short concise review. It tastes exactly like that. Description. Maple syrup coffee it Noah chocolate, all the flavors are there. They all work really well together. This is an absolutely phenomenal beer. I'm looking forward to drinking some more. When it hit Florida again. Yes. To find the future. Let's open it up. Okay. Dick, come join me here at the quiet end, not many people around, but some friendly faces see crew time, and again nice people most to have marooned. Yes, Jim graves was a friend of Charlie Brent. And he happened be married to Charlie sister. Angela. He will never forget the day. Angela told him a deep dark secret about her brother, but Jim fell like he knew his brother in law. And if there were signs of anything amiss, he would explain them away as mere eccentricities the truth is even someone, you know was a serial killer. You would probably have no idea. There's a separation between the public version of a serial killer as a monster. And the reality of an average looking person who commits heinous crimes against humanity. It's trail people just think that a serial killer looks a certain way. But this story will really illustrate that it isn't that way. I can tell. Mile away, which ones cereal Cohen, right? But the terrifying truth is a serial killers usually looking act like everyone else, and none of us wants to believe that we went into be. So obviously different in appearance and mannerisms that they're easily discovered Shanley, but that is part of what allows serial killers to be successful and repeat their crimes without being cut. They look just like you and me, right? And that's how this guy got away with it for so long. Charlie Angeles parrots head immigrated to America from Germany. Herbert Brandt got an engineering job at international harvester in Fort, Wayne, Indiana, and they began raising a family Angeles-born first. And then Charlie they're younger siblings came along a few years later, Charlie was remembered as a shy in Chevy kid who really didn't have any friends in school and got picked on a lot. The family took vacations down in Florida. They stayed at the coral sands in Ormond by the sea in Herbert decided to take the twelve year old Charlie hunting with him. The only French Charlie really had the time was the family dog. Who was a beagle? And they took the dog with them on this hunting trip. So the story that Jim heard was that Herbert shot the dog on that trip? Jim was thinking maybe Charlie shot the dog, maybe his rage was there early on? And he took it out in the family pet. We know that serial killers are known to be abusive to pets. But Herbert said he didn't mean to shoot the dog. But he did it. He was just trying to scare the dog out of the bushes and excellently hit the dog when the vacation was over. They went back up to Fort Wayne and the shooting happened a week after they got back from vacation. And this is the shooting of Charlie's mother that I'm talking about here. Her me confused for minute there. Yeah. Charlie was an introvert and his dad had shot his best friend down in Florida. His dog. Dog. So that was the story that Charlie's dad had shot the dog. And maybe that's what set Charlie off when he shot at his family. Maybe Herbert Charlie's father wanted to make a man out of Charlie and teach him a lesson. We don't know. We do know is that on Sunday January third nineteen seventy-one. There was an ice storm in Fort Wayne. Angela Brandt lived with their parents Ilson. Herbert her brother, Charlie and her two little sisters. Melanie, and Jessica Angeles fifteen Charlie thirteen Jessica three Melanie was just too and ill. So is eight months pregnant with the families fifth child. It was nine or ten o'clock in the evening. The family had just gotten a color TV that day so ill scolded Charlie Beck, getting his homework done in their parents went upstairs to the bathroom. Herbert was shaving at the bathroom mirror ill. Sue reading time magazine as she took a bath. Jessica Melanie were in bed in the bedroom. Right behind Angeles Angelov is reading a book in her bedroom when she heard loud noises that she thought were firecrackers Finch. She heard Charlie. No or Charlie don't and she. Her mom screaming her mom called out to her. Angela call the police so she was just pulling the covers off to get out of her bed. But within seconds, Charlie came into her room carrying a handgun, and she didn't realize what it was right away until he aimed at her and pulled the trigger. She heard the gun. Click and Charlie realized that the gun didn't have any more bullets. So he threw it on the floor. Angela kicked it under the bed and then Charlie physically attacked her. She was bruised, and she was bleeding and she fought back. The next thing. She knew she was on the floor at the foot of her bed and Charlie was on top of her. He was strangling her. She saw a strange look on his face. She would say which she described as glazed overlook when he looked more like himself. He said what did I do? And Angela answered I don't know. But I think you shot dad. He's in some kind of fugu state. Yeah. He could have been pretending could have been real. Angeles recollection. Yes. Horrifying night for her. Of course, we'll she knew she had to get out of the house. If she wanted to survive share. I think you've killed her done something to mom and dad, she told Shirley, I think we ought to go downstairs now. The only reason she wanted to go downstairs was to get out of the house and get help. So she made up a story. This was the early seventies. And she said to Charlie run away and join a hippie commune Charlie said, well, okay, Angela had to get him away from her. So she could open the front doing get outside. So she told Charlie it's very cold outside you need to go upstairs and get a blanket for melanin. Jessica. She just wanted to get out of the house Charlie begin to walk up the stairs backwards. He is saying, Angie, if I go up here, you're not gonna leave me are you? Angeles said no, of course, not. But as soon as he was far enough away. She bolted out the front door. Yes. She tore away in her bloody nightgown barefoot in the snow, and she was running to neighbors houses trying to get help. No one answered the door at the first two houses, then she ran to the next house. And by that time, Charlie was outside to an Angela could hear him screaming, Angie, you promised. You wouldn't leave me you promised? So Angeles said that she finally burst into a neighbor's house without knocking and the family was playing cards in Angeles. Screamed I think Charlie killed my mom and dad. Angela said that Charlie's father Herbert had managed to crawl to the phone and called the operator officers picked up little, Jessica. And Melanie Angela learned that her mom was dead. And her father was rushed to the hospital. She saw Charlie at the police station. They hit him chained up and Charlie apologized to her and he was crying. And she said that she immediately forgave him. Because she didn't feel like it was really him that did it. It's like he was possessed for a time while Charlie was in jail. His father had milk delivered to him because the inmates were only given water or coffee in the first thing. Herbert said to Angelo about her brother was oh the poor kid. He must have snapped. Charlie hit a grand jury. But he wasn't convicted. He was in jail for five or six months, and then he went to the state mental hospital from the Indiana state mental hospital Charlie went to live with his father in a new apartment, the father had gotten in Fort, Wayne. So he'd been away from the family for about a year, and he was released from the asylum, and the doctors told the family that there was no threat that he would ever act out again, they described Charlie's, compassionate friendly and willing to do anything for anyone. So looking back. We'll see that. This was a big mistake. Well, I'm just we're going to talk about not just this case. But some other case in the near future where teens who murdered apparent were institutionalized, and then let out with the assurance that they were cured yet is ain't and they're not. And then I don't know how you can ever say this child is cured is never gonna kill again. Well, yes, and Angela would admit that she never really felt right around him. She could never really trust him. Again. Of course. No kidding. I mean, he he was going to kill her. He would have his gun still had bullets. Absolutely. He would have to shatter. He might have gone on to kill the little girls. We don't know. We don't pervert recovered from his wounds. He then took a year's leave of absence from work and moved his family to Ormond Beach, Florida. No one in the family had any counselling mostly because Herbert didn't believe in it. And she believed that this tragedy basically ruined her life. I could see where it would. Yes. So she went from a straight A and B on a roll student to getting decent Fs. And then when she was sixteen she quit high school to take care for little sisters, melanin Chesa. She got her GED and she got a job. Well, let's think about this dick. I mean, it wasn't just that she went through this horrible trauma. But she's less from other, right? Enter mother was pretty much term about to have another baby shoes ready. Issue that term shoes at eight months. Yeah. So I could see how it would ruin your life at that age. How are you gonna continue as normal? You can't or don't know. And then no counseling because dad didn't believe in it. Yes. I'm thinking dad wasn't very warm. Not a talker. So who did she really have to talk to it seems like she didn't have anyone to talk to well, she she had her younger siblings. But there was so much younger than her than they were pretty much babies, though, they were two and three anybody gonna talk to now that's not gonna help. It was nineteen seventy three when Angela was living with their future husband, Jim, and she told him about her mother's murder and the tax on her and her father, and you could tell she hadn't really dealt with it. It was hard for her to tell him. She really broke down to talk about it. And he didn't believe it at first because he'd met Charlie. But then he saw the gunshot scars on Herbert brands Beck. So he head to believe it. But Jim anyway, set what he knew aside believing that Charlie was changed. I mean after all he was only thirteen when this happen in these two men became friends over the years. Jim Bugno, Charlie at all when he was young and did these things well now, but all his to go on his how he and Charlie interact at the present time. I know what Angela told him about what Charlie did though. But he's looking at this guy and saying, you know, he seems like a nice guy. Okay. I don't think I could be that forgiving. Let that go. I don't think I could either. But Jim did. Now, there's just a threat of denial going through all of these people. Isn't there ain't it was something that really wasn't talked about anyone they talked about it? It was just the thing that happened or the incident, you know, nobody called it. What it was some therapy? Probably would have been really good. But later Jim would recall times when he did see glimpse of Charlie's dark side. But those times he chose to set it aside as well. For example, Jim took Charlie to his mother's house in Daytona for a visit in over dinner. Mrs graves gyms mom. Said that she had heard from a neighbor about a local news story where thirteen year old girls. Head had been found inside of a paint can in the city of Aster. And right at that moment. Charlie burst out into maniacal laughter about this horrible thing. And it really sent chills down the spines of Jim. And his mother were here. Why would someone laugh at that? And it wasn't just a chuckle. It was a bit crazy laugh like he enjoyed at. You wanted to hear about it? So after stay Jim's mother's house, Charlie moved in with his friends. Jim Elber's known as JIMBO and Loni Weiner. They'll lived on San Juan avenue in a big house in Daytona Beach. They described themselves as a happy little family of hippies and they all lived upstairs into three bedrooms, the turn the bathroom into officialdom for storage and build furniture together. Looney remembered the Jim graves told him about the dinner when Charlie burst out laughing about the head and paint can and about how creeped out he was. But they are brush it off his huff. That's just Charlie. So lonely suspected that may be that evening have been the reason why Charlie had had to move out of Jim's mother's house share. I think that's plausible may be based upon gyms moms knowledge Charlie's past plus Jim zone, suspicions. Jim had suggested Charlie move out of his mom's house and until Mooney jimbo's. Yes. Jim had told his mother about Charlie's history that you know, about this before she talked about the head and the paint. Can I believe so? Yes, Greg Charlie worked as a maintenance man at a condominium complex, while he was attending Daytona Beach community college and still living with Loni, JIMBO Charlie liked working there because he could leave school early, and then he could fish in the afternoons. So every day he would fish alone in between school and work. Loney said that Charlie would bring home fish that. He caught every night for their dinner. Now, she never remembered Charlie having a girlfriend, he was gone fishing a lot. He would be up at six AM go to school come home, get his fishing gear and leave again Loni did remember that Charlie did a lot of fishing when he was in hosting tro sons are he lit a pretty solitary life. Well, liked to spend time alone. But he did have people in his life your but get the impression that he didn't interact with others much. I don't know dick because he was supposed to be a pretty friendly guy. Yeah. But you had to approach him. Maybe. Well, any ended up marrying a really outgoing person which seemed to kind of balance him out. So that was probably helpful. So Charlie took Jim on a fishing trip to the Florida Keys. This is after Jim and Angela had broken up. So the marriage between Jim and Charlie sister ended in divorce on this fishing trip. They were drinking beer smoking little weed and Charlie listened as Jim cried and complained about women and relationships now so gyms throwing out ideas for revenge when things took a horrifying turn Charlie who'd been silent is Jim Torah sister's name down look at Jim's face with a knife in his hand and asked you know, what the perfect revenge is don't you? Perfect revenge. Is you kill somebody? And then eat their heart. Charlie seemed dead serious in Jim was very uncomfortable. Because you know, Jim was talking about stuff like had to get even with an ex girlfriend, not violence or cutting anyone's heart out, you know, we'll truly maybe keeping her albums or something, you know, it's not the same wavelength not at all. But still Jim continued to believe that Charlie was deep down a good guy. Who's another thing that he let slide roared again, you you mentioned there was a fair amount of denial. He yes in these things are kind of far between. I mean, if you something weird is said one year, and it's a year later that doesn't make you think that someone's a sicko it's not like it's happening every day every week or even every month. But at the same time, it still happens enough that you keep remembering things, exactly. Well in hindsight. Of course, all these things are really gonna pop out at you. Charlie had graduated college in Daytona Beach, any had an electronics degree. So he ended up getting a job with Raytheon, which is the US defense contractor Jim had graduated from the school of music at the university of Miami. And was living in south Florida. And he was playing in a band Charlie would fly the guys in and out of West Palm Beach when they had time and after Angie left him Jim went through a period of partying and kind of playing the field, but gyms van broke up. And then he moved back to Daytona one day Charlie came over to gyms and told him I'm quitting my job in the Bahamas by this time. Jim was dating a woman named Nancy Carney, a pretty blonde who was working at the radio station. Charlie told Jim he lived in some sort of military like housing that Raytheon was providing for the employee's Charlie had been out there fishing on the flats for Bonefish knee-deep to waist high in the water when he said that he. Bumped against a duffel bag full of seal kilos of cocaine Charlie hit all this money, then so he moved to this fancy town of Astor Astor's kind of rural. It's north of Orlando in its by the Saint John's river, it's a really popular vacation spot for people who like to hunt and fish like, Charlie. But during this period, Jim said that Charlie was really drinking like a fish and spending tons of money. So Charlie did not do the right thing. And turn these drugs over to the authorities know, but do we really believe his story? Anyway, we don't know where he got that cocaine. He could have just been a drug dealer Argosy could have he could have been we don't know. But according to Charlie he'd hidden the duffel bag of coke in the mangroves back on Andros island any just took out little Baggies at a time to get cash. But when he found a buyer for a bulk of the cocaine he got close to half a million dollars. Jim said he never had the exact figure. But he knew that Charlie's house cost over two hundred fifty thousand dollars in that Charlie had paid cash for it in Charlie had not inherited any money. He wasn't a saver. So the money definitely came from the drugs. Surmise, right. Yes. The sky doesn't have a job where he would have a quarter million dollars in cash lying around. Now do any of us. If people do I wanna know what that job is. It's not podcasting or foot, you're rich. No. Oh, man. I know good thing you married me for my looks for your intellect. But it'd be oh, let's even better. So Charlie came to visit and he has gym machine of any girls. He could introduce them to. So Jim turns around SS girlfriend, Nancy if she had a friend who go out with Charlie and she did. So they went on a double date to a place called the ocean deck. This is a party place on the boardwalk in Daytona Beach, right on the ocean, Jim and Charlie met up with Nancy and her girlfriend and roommate at the time Terry hell Frick for drinks Terry head curly blunt. Here was cute and very outgoing Charlie senior Leica right away. So they all laughed and drank in that a great time together. Then Nancy she'd moved back to the ANSI had moved back to Daytona Beach after working for Club Med for about two years. She met Terry Haddon aerobics class, and they became friends when Nancy was looking for an apartment Terry had a two bedroom and offered Nancy one of the rooms Terry had been born in Japan at the touch 'Akaola airforce base where her father was stationed while he was in the army air corps, then he transitioned to the air force. Terry was a really fun person when her older Sister, Mary Lou headed daughter named Michelle Terry was very excited to be the fun aunt, so Michelle and Terry became very close when teary graduated from high school, she came to live with her sister and her husband, and at this time Michelle was in the fifth grade Terry decided to go to a business college Jones college in Winter Park, Florida. She attended the college for a year and when Bill and may. Mary Lou moved to Longwood Florida Terry lived with them during her first year of college Terry finished college out of state, but she returned afterwards. And she lived with her Sister, Mary Lou in her brother-in-law Bill in until nineteen seventy seven. And that's when she went to work at an upscale department store in central Florida. She transferred to the store in Melbourne. And after one year, she became the store manager in Daytona Beach, and that was in nineteen eighty four. So every step of her career was bringing her closer to Charlie Brandt. So Terry was managing all the departments at the store in Daytona Beach when she ran into Nancy at an exercise class now at the time Nancy is working at a radio station and was dating Jim graves. Jim Nance, sit up -tarian, Shirley and that blind date in nineteen eighty five and it was truly love or attraction at first sight. They hit it off. Yeah. So they dated a few months and -tarian Charlotte moved into an apartment together. Mary lose first impression of Charlie was at his very laidback and soft spoken, and he interior seem to complement one another. So we have this kind of reticent quiet guy with this really bubbly outgoing girlfriend. They worked well together. Everybody thought they really did around mother's day. Mary Lou and Bill when over to Terry Charlie's apartment for dinner, and they brought along their daughter, Michelle and also the younger son, Sean, Charlie interior, got married with Jim as the best man in Nancy as the maid of honor. But they didn't invite any other family and Charlie told everyone at that time that his mother had died in a car accident where you're probably not a good idea say, oh, I shot and killed her. He s but I mean, there has to be some honesty there. When Charlie I told Jim that he was going to propose to Terry Jimmy told him that he had to tell Terry about the incident about murdering his mother shooting his father almost shooting. Angela but Charlie at I said, there's no way he was gonna tell her. But Jim said, you know, if you don't tell her I'm fucking telling her so Charlie told him don't worry, I'll tell her. But to this day, nobody really knows if he. Ever did tell Terry yoi get conflicting stories on this. Yes. There's no proof that he did know the some of the things she'd say later might lead you to believe she knew right? Oh, the kind of ambiguous things as she said. So could be that she knew about it. The Charlie told her and maybe not, well, maybe he'd put a spin on it to seem not as bad. So after the got married. The couple moved down to big pine key part of the Florida Keys. Terry got a job as a receptionist at a dentist's office. Then she went to work at the little palm island resort in their human resources department and Charlie went back to work in ended up ended up running the drug interdiction blimp in the keys. So that's what he was doing in the Bahamas that kind of work work. So now, he's doing it in the keys, but they seem to have a good life, and they were very lovey-dovey. They would actually peck each others lunches because they both said it, always tasted better. Would someone else major lunch, especially the one you love? I don't know whether to feel warm or nauseous. Well, if you take it totally out of context, just they may have Detroiters lunches you'd say that sweet sweet. Sleet, and I do think food tastes better when someone else makes it I don't know about someone you love making it. But. Just anyone else out makes it for me. I'm happy. So Jim wasn't sure. Whether Charlie it ever told Terry about the winter when Shirley was thirteen but after Terry came to him with some other concerns about Charlie he was certain that he must have otherwise Terry wouldn't have been as worried as she was. Maybe maybe is right. So about five or six years after Charlie interior were married. Jim was playing with a band called sauce at the grand opening of a place called hammer heads out in key west Jim still hit Charlie interiors phone number. So he called them up and invited them to come in here in play. His Jim was playing his guitar -tarian. Charlie walked in and sat down on his first break between sets Jim went over to their table. And Charlie got up to go to the bathroom. So Terry looked at Jim and he noticed that she looked terrified. She grabbed his wrist. Jim now was in a good mood and had plenty to drink. Charlie. Who was mainly a beer drinker. Head to go to the bathroom a lot. He returned to the. Table though, before Terry headed chance to really talk to Jim and tell him what was on her mind when gyms next break came up and Charlie headed back to the bathroom. He went over to the table and ask Terry what's going on Terry told Jim that she was thinking of calling the police on Charlie? She said she'd come home early from work the other night and found Charlie in the fish cleaning room. She said that both Charlie in the sink were covered in blood. But there were no fish in the room, and no sign of any fish, anywhere. She said a woman had been murdered a block down from their house found mutilated in a rowboat. So she's thinking that may be her husband might have had something to do with it. Yes. And I think she said something about well, knowing what happened before which led Jim to think she knew about the fact that he'd killed his mother. Remember, the less? Jim wasn't very hopeful with her. He wasn't told Terry don't throw away your marriage over this far flung incident. Wow. After all Charlotte been in a fish cleaning room. Many did go fishing. So no matter that there weren't any fish to be found while, you know, people don't wanna believe this. It does sound kinda farfetched. You think your husband murdered somebody? But if you really thought about it, you might think we'll gee, he did murder someone before might not hurt to look into it. But his whole thing was oh, you're gonna ruin the marriage. If you do that he'll be mad at you a weird response to. Of course, he had been drinking. But even so why wouldn't you call her the next day and talked to her about it. No. Then before he could do anymore talking with Terry. When he did take another Brig she and surely already left, so he didn't have any time. If if to that initial discussion to talk with her ASA who knows what was going on there. Right. Who let's take a short break here for our sponsors Lorena Bobbitt, Amazon prime video it executive producer, Jordan Peele. Bring you the new docu series lorraina, a Sundance official selection that shears Lorena Bobbitt side of the story in investigates the headlines impress coverage twenty five years later. The story was ears the stable guilt or innocence would come down to whom the jurors would believe what did he do to make her do something like that. The defense says the years of abuse put her over the edge and this ended up being true battle of the sexes. What it meant back in nineteen ninety three is. Is really not that different from what it means today in two thousand nineteen beneath the tabloid headlines and talk show jokes. There was something far more complicated the scandal. 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They are offering site-wide just text brewery two eight four eight eight eight the. Only way to get this free pillow is to text brewery, two eight four eight eight that's be R E W E R Y, two eight four eight eight and message and data rates may apply. On september. Second two thousand four hurricane Ivan hit the Carribean killing sixty eight people then it's path who said it straight for the keys so emergency management officials issued mandatory evacuations a Michelle Jones whose Terry's niece worried and kept a close eye on track on the local news now Michelle at this point was thirty seven years old and working as a successful sales executive with the golf channel we which has its headquarters in Orlando. She owned a spacious home with a pool and jacuzzi for her age she earned a hefty salary and was able to afford to buy her first home in two thousand two it was a four bedroom older house, but it had been remodeled with hardwood floors, in light-colored decor. Mary Lou would describe her door to Michelle is a very happy child a joy to be around with a lot of friends when she was little shoes. In the brownies. She went to elementary school in Orlando and a Catholic school for a year as high school teenager who wanted to earn her own money, Michelle babysat, and she managed her money. Really, well when she turned sixteen she worked at some of the stores in the mall. She went to summer school every year because she wanted to graduate early from high school in very impressively. She graduated when she was just sixteen. She went to high school with her best friends, Debbie Wheeler night and Peggy Ann Wauters more. Michelle attended Valencia college for a year until her two friends graduated and then all three of the girls went together to the university of Florida in Gainesville in nineteen eighty four. Michelle was really driven to succeed allow like her aunt teary after Michelle finished her associate's degree. She went to work for the local FOX network as traffic manager. So she was responsible for communications and for scheduling the commercial spa. What's Michelle stayed with FOX until nineteen ninety four until she was recruited by more major network. So she worked really hard to build her career. She had to be very social in persuasive in her job. And she insisted that her aunt, Terry and Charley Wade out this hurricane with her. They'd have fun. She said they would make dinner and drink wine together. Michelle's ought knucklehead stayed with her before after hurricane which did significant damage to their home in nineteen ninety nine Tyrian. Charlie hit also stayed at Michelle's for a week in two thousand while their house was being worked on so everyday for a week during that visit Michelle fixed breakfast with Terry. Then she'd get dressed for work and come out of a room smiling in her high heeled, shoes and her tailored suits and that week every evening, she returned from work and shared, dinner and wine with their guests. Michelle was really comfortable with her aunt and her husband, Charlie. So with this invitation Terry packed couple bags and drove her Subaru over the seven mile bridge that connects the keys to the Florida mainland Ivan had reached a category five, but his strengthened path were fluctuating so Charlie interior arrived at Michelle's house and Saturday September eleventh, Charlie Cho's, father, Herbert and younger sister. Jessica to tell them they had arrived in the may plans for visit Orlando's just a little over an hour drive from Ormond beach, where they lived so Charlie Terry made plans to see them that weekend. So they got the Herbert brands house two PM on Sunday, a visited drank beer, and then went over to Jessica's house for dinner at Jessica's Charlie repeatedly told Terry that it was safe to return to their house in the keys the next day. He wanted to head home on Mondays said there's kind of a nod urgency in his tone. So this makes me wonder was he fighting an impulse to do the murder said he ends up doing. I think we'll talk about that. When we get to the end of the story here. See what you think Charlie halt, his older sister Angeles from Jessica's house. Angela wasn't able to go to Jessica. So she asked if they could meet the next day, but Charlie said that he interior had plans with Michelle. So they'd have to visit her another time looking back, both Charlie's father Herbert and his sister. Jessica would say that they noticed that Charlie held each one of them a little longer and tighter than he normally would have before they said goodbye that day. Like, maybe he knew this was it possibly so after that visit Charlie and Terry lift to go back to Michelle and they stayed there on Monday. Also. So this surprise Terry Khuzdar lead been so insistent on leaving. So she's a little bit surprised in annoyed because of his earlier complaints about when to get back to their house. The hurricane had bypass the keys by them. But Charlie wanted to stay one more day. So all of these are signs to me that he was planning. What he does when he ended up doing. I think so and your comment that he was fighting those kind of inner demons, I think is correct. I think side think maybe that's why when to get out of there. But then once he got there, he decided Ono, I give up I'm gonna do it. Maybe they should have just left from his sister's house. Sure, of course, looking back. We can say that. But because that's how it seems once they got back to Michelle's place his plan fell back into place. Yeah. Because he was obsessed with her. It was all about her really wasn't about Terry. Who wasn't? So Michelle in friends is Charlie was a bit eccentric. But she said that he enter on Terry made a good pair show loved her free spirited aunt who was fun company and Terry and Charlie were nothing. If not adventurous Charlie was bit looking guy kind of in beach bump sort away and Charlie called Michelle his Victoria's Secret. But not to her face. He told some male friends that he called her that because she was beautiful and look like a model in the pages of Victoria's Secret catalogue previ-, very creepy on Wednesday September fifteenth Michelle's mother, Mary Lou was becoming very worried. She'd made multiple calls to Michelle which had gone directly to voicemail, and this wasn't like Michelle not to return her mother's calls. Michelle had three very close friends and these other women that were her friends were married. Michelle was the only single one. But Mary Lou called one of Michelle's friends, Debbie Knight who lived close by. And she asked Debbie to go over to Michelle. Dell's house in see if she was okay, she's getting worried Mary Lou told Debbie that someone from Terry's office had called because Michelle didn't show up at work. That's alarming very alarming this this was a job that she loved and she needed to be there. And she was not just the coffee girl at the golf channel. Now, she was a career woman force. Yes, right, right. It would be distinctly unusual for her not to be at work without having phoned in a reason for not being there right now Debbie didn't want to alarm Michelle's, mum. But she hadn't heard from his shell either. And Michelle hidden answered any of her messages or emails? Michelle Debbie had actually been talking a lot because they were supposed to fly to together later that week. So they've been making plans. So this is totally out of character. Debbie hit Akita Michelle's house, and she agreed to go over and check on her Michelle and the friends all head keys to each other's houses. Michelle. L had invited her friend. Lisa over for dinner. But Lisa was running late and called Michelle de teller. And Michelle told Lisa nut to bother then telling her that -tarian Charlie had a lot to drink and we're arguing so it was no fun. So don't bother coming over. So now, it's Wednesday and Debbie called Lisa in a panic. She had a really bad feeling about Michelle. So Lisa agreed to meet Debbie over at Michelle's house. And the first thing that Debbie had noticed was that Terry and Charlie's SUV was in the driveway blocking the closed garage door. So they assume Michelle's cars in the garage as Debbie got out of her car her mind was really flashing into these terrible scenarios. And she thought maybe they died of carbon monoxide poisoning or some other freak accident. So Debbie went to the front door with a key that she thought would fit Michelle's front door. But she was shaking by this time, and she couldn't get it to fit at this point, Debbie didn't even know if she brought the right key. So she may. On the door with both hands and called out to Michelle, then she ran to the family room windows, and started begging on those then she ran to the side of the house squeezing between the hedges to get to Michelle's bedroom window, and she banged on that window nothing. So by this time, she's paralyzed with fear. And she doesn't know why. But she is a bad feeling. It's dark, she's alone. She doesn't know what to do. She ran to the neighbors house next door. Debbie started banging on their door and screaming for them to help. But it was dark inside. No, one was home. Then she ran across the street to another house. That's when she saw someone walking out of the next houses garage in. She ran over to ask that man for some help lick to take a short break here. Just to let our listeners know about park asks new crimes of passion podcast each week crimes of passion. Looks into what happens when true love meets true crime. Because love is patient. Int- love is kind. But sometimes love can be deadly many couples may look happy. But we don't always know what happens behind closed doors crimes of passion is great in. How it analyzes the relationship dynamics in the psychology that leads to betrayal and even murder new episodes come out every Wednesday. You can listen to the first episode on Wilma Hoyt right now and look for upcoming episodes on Amy Fisher, and Joey buttafuoco lorraina Bobbitt and Jodi areas just search for an subscribed to crimes of passion. Wherever you listen to podcasts or you can visit park cast dot com slash passion to listen today. So W's this neighbor's house and explaining the situation and the guy seemed to be pretty nervous. He ran over to his Carl Debbie following him took a gun and flashlight from his car and both. He and Debbie ran across the street. He tried to open Michelle's front door. Debbie's key. But it didn't work for him. Either Debbie beg the neighbor to break window to check on Michelle. But he refused. He walked to the back of Michelle's house into the garage look through the garage window, Debbie look through two and the neighbor pushed her away so hard that she fell to the ground. The man had not wanted Debbie to see the horrible sight in the garage. He called nine one one to report through as a man hanging dead in the garage. Then he told the operator something about multiple deaths. Police arrived and just about the same time Michelle's fan. Lisa arrived. So the police pushed Debbie Lisa back to stand. Cross the street and began surrounding Michelle's house with yellow tape. Paramedics arrived along with more police cars and fire trucks. So Debbie and Lisa were told that Terry Michelle had been found murdered in Michelle's house. They knew that it was particularly disturbing scene. When two police officers came out of the house and promptly vomited. That's a bad sign because these were experienced police officers so it had to be something really upsetting in there inside the detectives had found Terry Brant slumped over a living room couch covered in blood. She had been stabbed seven times. Michelle was in her bedroom. Lying on the bed. She had been stabbed once in the chest. She'd been decapitated and her head was placed sitting beside her body, her heart was cut out and her breasts were severed off and also placed on the bed. Her intestines were deposited in the trash bin in the bedroom. So this goes beyond murder, this is mutilations bureau, murder and beyond dismemberment yen. It's kind of set up to make a certain kind of seen shrew sounds like is so horrific. I can't even imagine. And I just think it was so lucky for her friend that she didn't walk in and find that if she would never be the same. Mean losing your friend is one thing? But to see that how would you ever get that image out of your mind think you could? I do feel bad for the officers that had to come upon it though. It's a horrible thing to Turk to rob hammered and Bob Jane's had never seen anything like this Michelle's panties and bras role shredded with the same knife and strewn about the room, they wrote Victoria's Secret brand. So this raise the question of whether Charlie had been through underwear before. And that was the reason why he called Michelle Victoria's Secret make sense to me good point. So detectives concluded that after stabbing his wife Terri with one of Michelle's kitchen knives. Charlie brand had spent a long time with Michelle investigators spent two days examining an inventory Michelle's house when they check the FBI database the MO of the killings matched. Exactly that has Sherry Aparicio in big pine key, Sherry was a homeless former beauty Queen who has found about a thousand yards from Charlene, Terry. House. She had been killed in a visceral under the big pine key bridge, which is just a few blocks away from the brand house back in nineteen eighty nine while they're in a similar crime in Miami Dade County, plus twenty six others with the same ritualistic characteristics. Investigators found Charlie hanging in the garage. It looked like after he was done with what he did to Michelle. He showered and changed into clean clothing. He was wearing a white polo shirt and blue shorts. Then he found a long white bed sheet at a metal step ladder and hung himself from the rafters after learning about what had happened. Angela Brandt came forward with the secret the family of captain since nineteen seventy one. So the brands house on big pine key had been left boarded up meticulously in preparation for the storm. Charlie had taken this test to the extreme every piece of wood that was cut for each window. Look like. It had been custom fit the holes for the door knobs on the French doors were precisely cut inside the house things were just as well kept. But investigators were shocked when they looked in the master bedroom on the back of the bedroom door was a graphic medical poster of the female anatomy, Sipa creepy in the poster the woman's hair is up in a bun, which is a new one to me. I've seen a lot of medical posters. I've never seen that. But it shows the muscular skeletal systems Terry would have seen this poster every day, and we can't help. But wonder what she thought about this? Neither Charlie nor Terry were in the medical profession. So there was no reason for that chart to be there. Did she think this was no big deal? Or did. She kind of know that he was a sicko. I don't know. But I can't imagine sleeping with that thing on my bedroom door accuser next to this man, it just gives me chills. Even if you didn't know about his hissed. Sorry. I would not be okay with that very weird. Very very weird. But there are other Erie findings including medical books journals, and in anatomy book, and in the anatomy book, there was a newspaper. Clipping that show too, humid heart. So knowing what he did the, Michelle. And then finding these things in his home things started to come together make some sense, well as much as anything like this could make sense so crazy, so they're also Victoria's Secret Cadillacs van in the house addressed Charlie so far from being a friendly. Uncle Charlie hid actually been secretly obsessed and sexually attracted to his own niece. They had no idea. We don't know if Terry knew anything, but Michelle clearly didn't know, right. She did not have friends in her. Parents said there's no way she'd put up with any of that. When investigators examined Charlie's computer, they found that he'd been on some really horrible websites to that featured death fantasies necrophilia in some really extreme violence against women to detectives, it was a certainty that Michelle had not been the first woman that Charlie hit killed. This looked like someone who'd done this before. It was very meticulously done very planned out. So they expected to find some evidence that Charlie was a serial killer in the only real question was how many other victims had there been we've had over thirty years here for him to do this between the killing of his mother and the killing of Tyrian, Michelle. So to try an answer that police tried to match their unsolved murders with Charlie Brandt's travels in the United States as well as abroad potential cases were weeded through to find specific similarities to Charlie's murder of Michelle because the murder of Terry was pretty much just to get her out of the way. I would think it was just a brutal stabbing. Her first. So that they wouldn't be interrupted while he was dealing with Michelle. Yeah. Right. This is like a horror movie type of thing. Yeah. Criminal profiler, Leslie dim Brocha was asked to analyze dozens of cold cases and see if they match Charlie's MO because his trademark was precision and very methodical technique how a person normally behaves is usually reflected in how they carry out their crimes too and Charlie was very organized planned out everything but still to the outside world. He was just an ordinary guy Terry's diaries that were found in the house reflected a pretty ordinary life. She'd written nothing about suspecting Charlie of being a killer Barerra couple of interesting notations. But these were just like weird day that the stuff nothing more specific. She did not sometimes when Shirley had been out late even out on night. But never added any explanations. I'm just so curious about what Terry knew or suspected there had to be something going on in her head about this. She was a smart woman. You're. Why would she stay with him? I don't know Seh mystery if maybe she was just suspicious, and we really will never know I would have to think if she had more tangible proof, she wouldn't have stayed with them. I don't think so. But you know, how people can really have a hard time believing this sort of thing about someone they care about. She was married. Ten years husband. So she thinks she knows him. She's been married to him for years. She's in a relationship with him. He's been kind to her as far as we know never violent or anything. So why would she think he would be doing that group porn? We'll never know. Right. So one other thing about Charlie that was disturbing as he was very well traveled person for years. He traveled all over the United States and even outside the US. So given more than thirty years had elapsed from the time he shot his mother till he killed his wife in these. It's unlikely that these were is only crimes now, but detect. I don't think we'll ever know how many murders Charlie was responsible for in the search for unsolved murders that fit his profile. There was one case that immediately jumped out at detectives, and this was the nineteen ninety five murder of Darlene. Toler she was a prostitute. In Miami's Little Havana section detective pet Diaz who handled this investigation remembered that this was a very unusual case like Michelle Darlene had been decapitated and had had her heart removed. Darlene body was found along a highway apart from the manner of her death to bits of evidence point to Charlie as her killer. Her body was wrapped up in a blanket, and then wrapped up in plastic and tied up almost like a package in that blanket. There was some dog hairs that were found police also found dog hairs in the back of Charlie's truck that were very similar and his truck also had another clue every time. He put gas in his truck. He kept a record of the mileage. Dj and in those mileage records spike occurred right around the time that Darlene was killed and she was killed one hundred miles away from his house, so that fit within there was another murder much closer to the branch home, which fit the pattern even more. This was seventeen years prior summer of nineteen eighty nine and it was just four blocks from Charlie's house, and we've talked about this reloaded to it under a bridge of big pine key fishermen discovered the body of a woman, and this was thirty eight year old Sherry Aparicio. She's so local woman who lived on a small rowboat she had a bicycle that. She put on the bow the boat and she take her boat out about one hundred yards of sure now investigators believe that was where she died for years. The boat had been locked away in the evidence yard in the would there are visible cutting marks which led detectives to believe that the bottom of the boat was used as a cutting table. For years. All police had to go on was a sketch of a man who witnesses saw running across the highway near the scene until Charlie's. Former brother-in-law Jim graves revealed what Terry had told him just after Sheri's murder about finding Charley in the fish room covered with blood and no fishing site. So Jim graves said he later, confronted, Charlie. And he said, you know, your wife thinks you might have committed this heinous act and Charlie said, I didn't do it. So Jim just let it drop else. Good enough for me. You say you didn't it. Okay. All right, Charlie. Well, understandably, Michelle interiors family members are angry that Charlie was released after murdering his mother without any treatment or punishment. Really thirteen year old Charlie was never diagnosed with a mental illness. But he was released to his father with no follow up. It's never been determined. What set Charlie off to kill his pregnant mother and attempt to kill his father and his sister. Angela but. There was clearly something wrong with him but psychiatrists where he stayed on the psych unit. Really couldn't find it agnosio for him. So I guess they just decided he's not mentally ill. And let him go. I don't I really don't understand the figures some kind of impulse kill let me a lot of serial killers. Don't have mental illness per se. Right. There's something wrong with them their killers your, but they might not have a psychiatric diagnosis. Exactly. And I think that was the case with Charlie. But I don't think that means that you just send him home. No, no. So they're over twenty six murders that have been considered as the work of Charlie Brandt. One of these was the disappearance of a twelve year old Volusia county girl who said was found in nineteen seventy eight and this is the head and the paint can write drill. He was laughing his maniacal laugh, right? It's the one. So Angela would admit that she never really, trusted, Charlie. After he killed their mother. She kept him away from her own children. Well, how could you trust him anyway right road records from his brief stay at the psycho Spital haven't been released because Herbert wouldn't give consent. He's kept this family secret in I don't know after Herbert's death, if they can be released if it would be up to Angelo for somebody. I'm not sure full ever be able to see those. It's been so long who knows if they even have them things like that can get lost. Mussa some point there is still there 'cause the father refused to release them. Exactly. But I would imagine the fathers quite elderly. I wonder who has the power of consent at that point when he passes away. Maybe Angela those maybe although she's not really wanting to talk about it much either for sure. It's such a disturbing case that this man spent his life killing, and he was never caught also disturbing that after he committed murder at age thirteen they just sent him home pretty much. I mean a year big deal now generally looking at the Indiana, juvenile code a killer of thirteen years of age would be held in juvenile detention until the age of eighteen and then there'd be a hearing. And they would determine the next steps. But there wasn't done with Charlie. No. And I'm really not sure why unless we have an Indiana lawyer who knows and wants to share it with us. We really don't know. Good. But it's just might be the psychiatrist had a lot more power than his said this child is okay. He won't do this again got released. It could be and it was the early seventies. I'm hoping things have changed since then. Right grizzly. Yes. It really is. It's a fascinating story, but just horrendous, and my heart really goes out to Michelle and Terry's family. Every hour in the United States. Seventy five people are reported missing. What if there was a task force dedicated to bring them home? That's the story behind the new original drama gone premiering, February twenty seventh on WGN America. It stars Chris noth-, and Danny Pino as well as newcomer Levin. Ramen. She portrays the newest member of this elite team who is a survivor of childhood abduction herself. Don't miss the series premiere of gone Wednesday, February twenty seventh at nine o'clock eastern, eight o'clock central on WGN, America. The music for true crime brewery is written and produced by tristen Capelle. If you need more TC in your life. You can go to our website Tigra dot com and join team Tigra for access to members only episodes along with your exclusive access to members only episodes you'll receive a gift from us. You can also get these same benefits by going to patriot looking up tigr ever and becoming a patron this month, we covered the murders of Sheila labar, a real sociopath and she killed and tortured young men under New Hampshire farm next month in March were discussing the crimes of Robert relgion reld and took years to be caught partly because of the support he received from a rich aunt in partially because he often changed his MO. If you enjoy the show, we would really appreciate it. If you would take a moment to give us a review on I tunes or wherever you listen because that helps us find some new listeners we're going to move on with our feedback segment. Now, just remember you can send feedback in case suggestions to us in an Email to true crime brewery at tigr dot com, or you can tell us in your own voice by leaving us a voicemail, you can do that on our leave of voice mail link on the front page of our website tigr ever dot com. So who we have some feedback? I got kind of an abbreviated feedback section today. The first Boyce mill is from Allison. And she has a case suggestion. Hi, I love your podcast. My name is Alison true. Crime brewery is awesome. I wanted to recommend a case which took place in New York City, and it was the murder of an actress named Adrienne Shelly. Who was the Starling sweet actress who had some kind of construction workers in our home and something happened. And I guess I won't say what happened. But if you could look into it. I would love to know more about that Kate I feel like it never really got on much publicity. And it was pretty shocking. So again, her name was Adrienne Shelly. And I think movie that she was in was called the waitress and she was just beautiful sweet actress, and she was just at her home in the west village, and she was murdered. Okay. I love your podcast. Makes me really happy to I know most of the cases, so it's like from my true crime addiction last year. I watched most of them on YouTube. But I love re rehearing the cases through your storytelling. It's wonderful. And that's it. So thanks again. Thank you so much. Alison Allison has a very seductive voice. She's a great voice. She could ever own podcast to what do we know about this case? I know that waitress is one of my favorite movies with Keri Russell in all have to look and see what rule she played in that movie. 'cause I did really like that movie a lot when it came out. Drian, Shelley wrote, the the movie she directed the movie, and she co starred in it, so shoe is a big force in it. Yeah. And it's a really good movie are just did some brief stuff to look up. I know probably when investigate little bit more, but it ruin showy that was her stage name Adrian LeVine is her real name her birth name. So November first two thousand six she was found dead hanging in the shower of her Greenwich Village work studio apartment now, the initial examination didn't reveal any suspicious circumstances. Police apparently believed it to be a suicide. However, her husband insisted, she would never have taken her own life. And this brought about a reexamination of the bathroom there there, they discovered footprint, and it turns out that a construction worker who is working in the building confessed to killing showy. And making it look as she killed herself per husband established the Adrienne Shelly foundation which awards scholarships production grants finishing funds and living stipends to artists and in her honor, the women film Critics Circle gives an annual Adrienne Shelly award to the film that it finds most passionately opposes violence against women. Excellent. So we'll check into that. To know what the motivation was what happened there was this a sex crime kind of sounds like it does. Yeah. Okay. Well, thanks again. Alison, then I have another case suggestion from the coal. Jane, dick. This is coal from Vancouver island in Canada. I absolutely love listening to your shows. I join you at the quiet end almost every day. I have to say that your voices are very soothing though. Because I had to go back and realis- into a lot of the shows because I've fallen asleep at night with my headphones. So I do love your beer reviews as well Dake. I've actually started making a list for my husband because he loves trying different beers. I have a case suggestion for you. It is the wells gray provincial park murders in British Columbia close to Kamloops. A man called David David shearing initially. He's now he now goes by David NS. He killed an entire family, and they were initially missing. And then they found. Burn tow car in the park. And there's actually quite a lot of information on it. If you look up the if you do a Google search on them, just a quick overview. It says David Sharon kill the family of six in August, nineteen eighty-two while they were camping in the Clearwater valley near wells, gray provincial park. I one hundred twenty kilometers north of Kamloops in BC. So there is actually a CBC dot C A. The detectives episode one season one is dealing with that also. And there's quite a lot of news reports on that as well. So I think maybe that might be a really interesting show for you guys to have a look at it kind of the the fervor about it died down quite quickly. That was my I was quite young when it happened in. That was my initial kind of explosion with true crime and started getting my mind working, and I liked to try to figure things out and try to find out. What makes these people take? That's why. I loved the amount of research that you both put into doing your shows. So I think that if you guys wanted to have a look at that one I think that would make a great show free guys. And we thanks again for all the work that you do. And are we'll see you at the quiet end again soon. Thank you, nichole. This is a thirty five year old case. But it was kind of interesting that he killed a mother and father their two children and the mother's parents chase the rollout camping or doing something. And just a horrible crime. Yeah. So let's check that out. Okay. Yes. She explained it. Very well. She did. Thank you, nichole. Thank you. So I have an Email. I'm going to read from Emily. This is Emily. She has a comment. Emily says I'm from Toronto Canada side. Definitely have heard a lot about Russell Williams. An interesting fact is that he went to the elite boys private school called upper Canada college. You see see which is a very prestigious private school in Toronto. You see see is known to be a school with a very much oh environment and lots of kids from other schools. Don't like the boys there is they find them to have a bit of a jerk attitude. Also during the time Russell Williams was there. I'm pretty positive. That sex-abuse in molestation were going on. Now. Some men have admitted to this this summer. My mom said the girlfriend of a man who held a high position, maybe vice principal. I'm not sure at the school my brothers. And I went to my brother was also in the same greatest man, son. So my mom knew them a little bit. My mom asked the girlfriend how this man was doing. And she admitted he was not doing well in his gun on a disability. Leave my mom, of course, was really surprised in asked. Why in the girlfriend said that he had PTSD and was really suffering. She told my mom that he was abused. When he went to UC see the same school as Williams and most likely they would have been there at a similar time. It was triggered by the school giving training about sex abuse. So an interesting fact about the environment at the school in this time period. Still in the last decade students have come forward to admit that they were abused by other students in forms of hazing rituals. So not really. Environment. Okay. We'll thank you, Emily. That's an interesting comment on one of our more. Well, known cases wonder if that the heard an affect on him if this was going on at the school while he attended. And we know what a previous individually turned out to be will. Yeah. There is some evidence that sexual offenders have been sexually abused in the past a lot of times. Yeah. Plus, they're definitely the macho environment, which I feel is kind of prevalent through a lot of the military anyway or sure, especially if you're getting up to be a bigwig like Russell Williams was throat. Yeah. He did seem very cocky in the interviews. They did with him Kardashian privileged. Yes. Absolutely. Like he thought he was smarter than other people as well. Can well that was an interesting Email, your thank you. Thank you very much and thanks to everyone for your feedback. We really appreciate it reloaded hearing from you. Absolutely. Let reps it up for today. And we'll meet with you. Again, next week at the quiet end. Bye everyone.