The O.J. Simpson Trial: Marcia Clark
I cannot count the number of times. I've left my house 'cause spattered with my own blood because I was in a hurry to get newburger and I didn't want my rating to get too low. Welcome to you're wrong about the podcast. Where the Perm of misconception meets the flat iron of Hindsight Oh my God right how? I had a month to make that the perm of misconception. That sounds like something in the never ending story. I am Michael Hobbs. I'm reporter for the Huffington Post. I am Sarah Marshall and I'm a woman sitting in a closet talking about O.. J. Simpson asking a boy to love the show. We are on on patriotic at Patriotair Dot com slash. You're wrong about and it appears by the time we have this out that we will be selling merch. If you want more details just go to our twitter page agent will put something on twitter slash. You're wrong about I'm pretty sure. Yeah thank you for coming on this ride with us. This is episode four. Yes in our series on the Okay Simpson Simpson trial. Yeah we're four hours into our telephone and we're about to go all the way my very good. I am extremely excited. Talk About Marcia Clark and about this period of investigating OJ. I guess during and after the Bronco Chase Yeah. I want to start by talking about who Marcia Clark is kind of right now versus who she was maybe four years ago the American mind. She's someone who's gone through a really interesting rehabilitation of image very recently. Like what's your experience of that. I mean she was one of these women that was sort of in the wave of recapturing in ninety women who really got treated terribly right like Tanya and Lorena Bobbitt and Marcia Clark was one of the main people that we've now returned to and been like like we were really mean to this lady who seemed to have been doing her best. Yeah did you like have a sense of who Marcia Clark was before her. Image kind of got rehabilitated habilitated In Two thousand sixteen with the Ryan Murphy Show about the OJ Simpson trial. I really didn't I mean I don't actually think that I had such a negative view of her at the time nine. I think I just thought that she was incompetent. Because you're an eleven year old boy and you're kind of not communicating in the language of Misogyny. That was being spoken so so fluently around. I mean I think I was but I just think that it didn't attach itself to her for whatever reason. Maybe for millennials like Marcia Clark in the uh-huh same way that so many other women who had jobs and in public inspired this kind of vitriol among their contemporaries that may be kids at the time didn't got got because many of us were used to have working mothers so we were like. Oh look it's it's mom. What do you think the big contrast between her for years ago in her now? Well well first of all. Tell You my first impression of Marcia Clark which is that. I started researching the O.. J. Simpson trial for the first time. Five years ago and got to the part where Marcia Clark a prosecutor is introduced and I was like. Oh there's a the prosecutor is a woman that's need like I had no. I had no memory of her. Oh like I had no sense of her being someone on who was attached to the case like I had no sense of her as a legendary figure. I remember when I read Jeffrey. Toobin the rest of his life which is the first book I ever right about the Oj Simpson trial in which really like open my eyes to some of the complexity that we we had forgotten since the sense that I got about Marcia Clark and the thing that probably immediately made me really like her and had like started my like attachment to her as a a a figure in the story that has has grown and blossomed to this day in which I must be open about up front. I really like Marcia Clark. And the first thing I liked about her was was that like she was the one person who is taking this seriously and also that she was trying. I mean she let me actually read you quote. Marcia Clark has a memoir called without a doubt written with Teresa Carpenter in it. She says that one of the things she likes about court is is that there are clearly delineated rules of combat rules that follow reason which to me kind of says a lot right this idea that she is drawn to work as a trial lawyer and she's he's like later on her career promoted out of prosecuting and given an office job in hates it and asked to be put back in Litigation Gatien interesting but what she's saying is that one of the things that she loves about. It is that you know there are rules. There are clear rules and their rules that are oriented toward logic and toward finding the truth. We're going to hear the phrase search for truth a lot and the next several hours of the show so okay got ready. But that that's what she believes is. Trials are four and what trials are capable of and that she believes that the law is able to actually bring about justice. Like you get the sense that she is operating being from sincerity and from also a belief and you know we are all coming here to honor reason. Basically than and that's not at this trial did I know I was just GonNa say it sounds so naive now especially knowing what we know about the Oj Simpson trial and knowing what we know about the legal system. Generally that the idea that it's this pure thing and everybody follows the rules and all anybody wants is to find the truth. It just like hopeless some Howard. So it's very like trust the system thinking think it's not as if she went into this trial as as like a newly as what she calls a baby be a like. She's he's forty years old at the time that her involvement in this case against ends you know so. She's Cuban a prosecutor for over a decade at this point shoes also been in high profile media cases before like she tried a case that was featured prominently on court. TV So she already even knows what it's like to be working with kind of celebrity concerns and to have cameras on her all the time so this is really new for her. Which I find interesting to like? It's not as if she's like young or green. You know I mean. She's she's a woman in her sexual actual prime but she's not young as well. I want to it. Leave there any door open to the fact of to the idea that I'm you know that's less than complimentary about Marcia Clark's age because I guess feeling nineteen ninety-five was a really you you know was enough yet right. Because he's like facing off against f Lee Bailey who sixty two years old and looks like. He's eighty because of the kind of life if that he's been drinking his way through like she one who has to have thousands of words written about her under eye bags totally totally and the fucking haircut thing which I'm still mad about. Let's let's talk about that too. What do you know about like Marcia Clark's appearance? I bet you could tell me in great detail about like what she looked like at various times. Could I admit it's something. Yeah I know I'm supposed to avoid boilers but the other day. I was looking for a photo to include in this post and it was on interview with Marcia Asia Clark like a year ago or something and it was her talking about the infamous makeover. She began I. I always make them up but she began the case with a Perm right and then she straightened out. Later was the other way around. She began with a perm okay. She became permanent she had like a makeover quote unquote and then she had straight hair and so of course chorus is built up at the time as like. Oh the cameras are on her and like she's trying to go see it up and she's trying to look more professional bubba so in this interview that I cheated and read and I promise I won't do it again whereas this interview sheet it it's in vulture. Okay they're asking about the haircut and she says that was a media creation in in the very beginning of the case before opening statements are press person said he did a haircut. It looks messy and I did. It was kind of scraggly so I got my haircut. That was an after that point. Join the media. Goes crazy with this shit. It's just so weird. They're came that point in the trial when my perm grew out I didn't have the time to go out and get permed again that particular morning I looked at myself and and said just blow it out and stop trying. You can't keep it up. You're never going to have time to go back to the hairdresser now and I have straight hair so blew it out. Dust began the media parade about the makeover. Well how could I still look like that. I just Marsha relatable to me about the way that people make those decisions that people who are in the public eye do everything very deliberately and there's always some level of calculation behind everything they're doing but oftentimes sounds like she's a person she's half time in the mornings just want to deal with her hair so she's like fuck it don't you think the public's combined demeanor is a little bit like Oj. The toddler right. They were thinking. Why would you do this to me why they affects me? And it's a woman in Glendale straightens her hair and that affects your life somehow and you have to talk about it for as like what is that. Yeah maybe also. In addition to that she's trying what no one will stop calling the trial of the sanctuary if imagine that you prosecuting someone for murder and you're on television all day all day. And there's there's this weird thing where it's like the direness of the consequences of your work are what make it so that you don't have the time or wherewithal to be like thinking about eyeliner. Sure yeah yeah but also like. That's what has brought them to the kind of prominence that makes people want to tell you what to wear. Yeah it's also it's like I think it also allowed people to blame her because they're like well if she didn't want people to comment on her makeover she wouldn't have had one right she's putting into the public guy. She'd wanted the jury to listen to her. She would have had a different hairstyle that would've made all of the sanctuaries of systemic amick racism. Just melt away. Show me that Hairdo. What have you been coming across in your readings about the social construction of Marcia Clark in nineteen ninety four? I feel like the person who I have spent the most time reading on the subject of Marcia Clark's appearances Marsha herself at this point. 'cause I really been enjoying kind of going straight to the source because it's like a wouldn't it be nice and maybe this is for me. Wouldn't it be nice if we lived in a world. Where like Marcia Clark didn't have to be the slake this very liz lemon person actually? WHO's like trying to be the rational center? Her of this mess that is spinning out of control as every day showing up and his like. Here's the evidence we have so much evidence Kislyak his doing in this like be our guest of evidence right just kind of evidence practically the you could ask for like people who are doing legal commentary on this at the time like often opened the remark. That you hear is like it's very weird to have a murder trial with this. Mike Evident set like Marcia Clark has has won a case previously on on a single drop of blood. She's worked with that that degree of matter before so she's like just showing up with this lake reasonable case that like I imagine any lawyer would feel like they would have no trouble arguing in good faith and that there shouldn't be Ek shouldn't be complicated. Yeah and and every step that she tries to take like falls out from under her and I don't disagree with the reasons that many of those steps fell out from under her but and they still did she still believe in what he was doing and she also you know from the very beginning was furious about what happened to Nicole and those are. There's always good stories of almost like radicalization when you realize the institution that you're a part of does not have the same mission as you or not of of the nature that you've been assuming it was to put all that trust in the law and then realize how easily it can be gained and how money is so central to warping thing it in this way that any of your defendants rightly some random kids stealing a car. If he could afford five high price lawyers he would probably manage to get off to right right. Here's the thing to. Here's what I also WanNa like. Keep in the mix here as we go forward like say. This kid has all this money he gets all these he gets f Lee Bailey and he gets off like to me. That would be very justified like to me. That's not like a reason why the system is valid but like what we also can can can state I think with was some security at this time. Is that the legal system. We have is not known for handing out proportional sentences especially for property crimes. And so if that kid was going to get maybe like twenty five years in prison for a nonviolent offense then it's like if the choices between a disproportionate sense and an acquittal then and I don't see how a disproportionate sentence is just simply because it is a centrist because it validates that a crime happens like that's not right. That's not justice right. The phrase is beyond a reasonable doubt. It's not a preponderance of evidence that civil trials you use a preponderance of evidence when you're going to be separating someone from their money not their freedom eight. I'm likely shouldn't live in a society where we think it's terrible when someone doesn't go to prison you know that this is a complicated area and in this case like I. I believe that Marcia was on a righteous quest to put him in prison but also my Reich his quest putting people in prison so I feel many ways weighs about this all at once my one of my one of the other things I really believe about the Oj. Simpson trial is that people tend to regard it as unfair because it it was so unfamiliar to us as a trial that was unusually fair. Where like the defendant had a chance and where there is significant evidence against the defendant and where are a lot of the public was poisoned against him through a lot of high profile media coverage and where there was still the possibility of a reasonable doubt? jury was sequestered. That's actually what you're supposed to have right right but so how. How does Marsha get involved in this case? We'll take us expect the the Bronco Chase. I WanNa know what has we're going back prebon coach as we get to the Bronco Chase at the end of this episode. I feel like the Bronco Chase might be looming horizon for us uh-huh and this whole thing could not really but like wouldn't it be great if this is like Chris Rim Shandy Taha podcast series and I finally got to use my my English degree. Gosh I keep thinking about inception where like the third level down an hour one minute in time on the first level. And that's that's what it's like and Sarah Time we go in we do another to our podcast. And we're like and we've covered one day of the so. This is also rewind us where we rewinding to. Okay we'll speaking of inception time and Sarah Time and you're wrong about time. Let's talk about Marcia. Standard Time okay. It's June thirteenth. Nineteen Ninety Four. Okay Day after the murder the day after the murders but Marcia doesn't know that yet okay. All all Martians knows is that she is a forty year. Old Prosecutor in as we have already mentioned her sexual prime with new young boys because she's taken care of two young sons that she's taking care of you said sexual prime and then you said two young boys with two young sons who taken care of and three days prior. She has filed for divorce from her husband. Gordon Marsha and her husband had been separated for about six months and scored moved out of what she calls their dilapidated track thome in January. And it's only at the urging of her friend blend that Marcia has finally bitten the bullet and filed for divorce. Who does that sound like? They're cool yeah. So December nineteen ninety-three when she asks her husband Gordon to leave and it's also at this time that she asks for her old job as a prosecutor after oh she's been given a promotion and a desk job. This is like a turning point for her. She's like I can't go on with Mary. Kenny more. I can't go on with his job anymore. Four and I'm just GONNA plunge into the abyss basically because one of the things she also writes about in her memoirs is that she had a first husband spend who she met when she was quite young and then went straight from her. First husband to Gordon and says she rates spent most of my life with a man under the same roof. I was constantly terrified and I remember reading this for the first time and being surprised and then surprise that I was surprised because at always an an interesting thing because I was like. Oh I didn't think Marcia Clark was scared of stuff. I thought she was like very tough and brave and a grownup and wasn't having having the experience of being like a vulnerable new single mom new single person who's really going through a lot of what Nicole was going through at the same in time just in different neighborhoods at the same city of Lake. Fuck like I have to call a repair person. I don't know what to do about the plumbing. I don't know how to get the mold out of my bedroom wall like I don't know how to take care of my house. I'm afraid to be living on my own like the I've never. I didn't plan to do this. She hinting that. There was abuse from the marriage. Why would she scared? No she doesn't she doesn't say that she I mean in this passing. She Sang. She was terrified. I think because she's used to having a man around his generally generally Bremen also because this is like kissed a brand new life. I mean I think you could see this as as physical and or existential terror and what she says about her marriage to Gordon is quote. I will not go into particulars because they are no one's business but our own so it's not our business but as Kim Thirteenth Dance Marcia drives into work. She's running on what her friends call Marsha Standard Time which means she's always a little bit late but this is like a quiet day and she writes. I had no. Oh Court appearances no witness interviews a short skirt day. No need for a believe me suit. That's great wording. Yeah so she goes listen to her office and she notices that her desk is like almost clean. which is ca slake? Imagine I just like to think about this detail. Imagine action that you're like you're looking at your in box you know and you're like wow I've only got like thirteen e mails and here and it just feels like things are in order and I filed for divorce against Gorden Jordan and I feel like I'm getting like things have been crazy but I'm getting my life under control. Things are calming down. Just like savor this moment with Marsha because it ever come again so mark. His desk is almost clean. And the phone rings. And it's a detective named Philip vannatter. Okay and he says according to marsh she gives herself kind of private ideologue which. I don't always totally totally Bhai happened. Word for word but like I like it. So vannatter calls he says Marcia do you have a minute. She says I got to man. What's up this is is like Martin L. Line of dialogue in her own book? I love her hard-boiled she'd hardboiled. He's hard boiled Albright. She is she like sits around reading mystery novels in her spare time and then post trial like she writes mystery novels and she you know smokes like a character and a ninety s movie who's being established as a rebel so so Philip vannatter is on the phone and she and Phil have connection he is in the. LAPD's robbery homicide division and they had worked together on a murder case two years before. This is the one where the evidence was a single drop of blood and they convicted the defendant based on the DNA from the single type of blood God foreshadowing. She says their buds basically and then. He's he's getting close to retirement so they probably won't work on another case together again. Phil says to Marsha on this morning. I got this double. I need to run it by you. And Marcia explains that this is a common practice for a detective to call a DA to see if they have material for a search warrant and so he says Okay Simpson Dino who this guy is. What do you think marshes reaction? Action is based on the reaction of every other woman. We've seen on this show. So far does she know him from the Hertz commercials she says wasn't he a naked gun or something Okay I really love the fact that in this case where a celebrity is so important and where people have this idea of where they have like sexual issue preexisting amateur Bocquet Simpson. There had that they cannot wrap their mind around him committing a murderer that the person who is prosecuting. This this trial is like who what Riser K Simpson the Nordberg. So vannatter gives you the rundown basically he says that Okay Simpson's ex-wife who Marcia Clark always identifies as Nicole Brown. She always identifies okay. Simpson obscenity as Simpson's. She never calls him Jay. She doesn't like that other people do that. All the time and her book is dedicated to Ron. Goldman into Nicole Brown. So she She takes us all very seriously but anyway vannatter at the time says there. Two Bodies Simpson's ex wife Nicole Brown and an unidentified male companion MHM and Phanor gives Marcia the basics which are in her words that there is a lot of blood in fact a trail of blood leading away from the bodies because of death not immediately apparent. He tells her. There's a blue knit ski cap found at the murder scene. There was a brown leather glove. Love found at the scene and then after investigating the scene felon his partner have gone to okay. Simpson's house to notify him of his wife's death MHM when no one answers. And they can't get in and they noticed what looks like blood on a white bronco outside. They decided to send the youngest and fittest detective among them. MM over a wall and into the property and detectives name is Mark Furman. Yeah okay but I mean I want to know what you think of that. I mean it just seems so fucking being obvious that he did. Why are we even talking about the January? I mean I feel like an all of the coverage especially at the time there was so much sort of hemming and high back and forth and like the sheer sue Nami of evidence that OJ did describe. I feel like completely lost. I mean literally Assu Nami. It's unbelievable because of the violence of the murders linked. The amount of blood is extraordinary. Ordinary and later on Marsha goes to tentacles house to look at the crime scene and is not let in. Because there's already a lot of tourists and who's to say she's not one of them unbelievable so says the COP on duty a normal tourist activity visiting a crime chill and she staring through this fence pence trying to get a look and what she sees is basically this river of blood. Oh God hoof the thing that stands out to her to is that there are these these pawprints that have walked through fuck through the blood and then and then down. The walkway is Kato's at the dog. That's Kato Oh my God dino the story of Cato. What's the story? The dog is a story. The dog I didn't even know there was a story. The Dog. Yeah Oh yeah the dog. Actually let me show you because I bought there's an anti leave of its portfolio and an issue of the New Yorker from Nineteen ninety-five of some of the principals and the O.. J. Simpson trial. And the first I portrait is of Cato. The dog really. Yeah let me send it to you okay. A wow doesn't he. He looks like a good boy. Yeah he's like a German shepherd in the front and legos Zebra in the back. He's like weird stripes going on. He's an Akita in what he's an Akita that's that's what he is I've never heard of that brand of dog. It's extremely attractive dog. Well I mean so after. Are the murderers. There is a fair amount of commentary on the fact that Kato displayed subpar. Oh he should have protected her her and he didn't they people are blaming the dog. Yeah what yeah. That seems like a weird take but like whatever you got a newspaper every day you got to. You got like thirty six inches to fill please with blaming don black dog my God and I guess Akitas are known tone for being pretty protective. They can be pretty aggressive. And one of the people that Dominic Dunn Interviews says I was tested an Akita van and and all of us agreed that. Okay had to be the killer because there's no way that a stranger could've been like lurking around the house or invading the House House and Keno wouldn't have barked at him like it had to be. Oh care there would have heard Kato barking sooner. I mean sure no. That's another one of those Internet sleuth. Details details where it's like. We really don't know very much and we're trying to read significance into the details. We can no but like I don't know you don't know their dog. Maybe the dog barks a lot lot. Maybe almost barks never and there's much better evidence that Oj so again. It's on the list of good evidence. It's like one thousand and thirty second the list when the trail of blood like pretty good evidence and like the long history of domestic abuse is also very good evidence. We don't we don't need to go to dog. Breeds reads. That's true at the same time. The first time I read that I was like That is persuasive. Like there are details that like make make a scenario makes sense to you suddenly or like make something easier to visualize and I was like. Yeah right but Kato. The dog ends up being. I'm the one who leads people to the crime scene. He's the reason the crime scene is I discovered and the way this happens. Is that the night of June twelfth. A Guy My name's Steve. Schwab is walking. His dog around Brentwood and he later proves a very reliable witness because he can place the time that he discovers as Cato. The dog at right after he had been watching the Dick Van Dyke show between ten and ten thirty because he always watch his dog right after that so that he got back home I think at eleven so he can watch the next show that he wants to see. He has kind of Lake his little evening routine scheduled around reruns. Okay interesting and he happens to pass a White Akita barking at a house which he kind of pauses and looks bad and he. He goes up to the dog and looks at it and as he's looking at the caller and getting a closer look at the dog he notices that there is blood on all of his paws on my God. So he can't figure out where he lives and he ends up walking home and the Akita false him back to his house where he gets home and eleven as he planned the Mary. Tyler Moore show is on which just like. It's funny to me that the first details of this like the first the public encountered this case. We're slake AAC so mundane right. It's just like the the sky who struck his evening around his his TV shows and he's like this feels so familiar right. You'RE GONNA watch my one show and then I'm GonNa Walk My dog and I'm GonNa Watch the Mary. Tyler Moore show. Yeah 'cause it you know I guess I feel like it's things like this remind you that this is real life like this is this is not entertainment I made it is entertainment came entertainment. We can't say that it wasn't that this is all part of the real world that we all live in that we walk ratios. Can I ask a logistical question. Yeah I'm just thinking like I I am. I'm sick to my stomach thinking about like the last minutes of Nicole and Ron's lives. Yeah is there. Is there reason. People didn't hear screaming or something. These like just big houses for each other. I don't think that they're super far away from each other. It's in more of a cramped area of Brentwood then the one. OJ lives in the crime scene at the end of a long walkway. And there's a lot of kind of trees and foliage so it makes it hard to see from the sidewalk one of the reasons that Nicole always able to afford the Bundy Condo was because it had been on the market for a long time before she bought it because people really didn't like how much traffic traffic noise. Especially you got because it was on a pretty busy road so I think that that was a big part of it. People heard other stuff. There's a witness who later later testifies that he was out when he heard coming from from Nicole's house a man's voice saying hey. Hey Hey wake. Tehran Goldman's family talked about knowing that that was exactly what Ron would say coming across a situation like you know whatever whenever he found. It's terrible to think about. There might not have been time for screaming are there might not have been very much. I don't know I'm glad that you feel really horrible to now. I know this is how you felt for months now former to think about yeah I used to drive around listening to jump for my Love Really Sadly Oh oh my God people do that too. I think you have to start by thinking. This is like not this fascinating murder. This like puzzle hustle for us to solve which is how he liked to regard are murderers but as like a woman's life that almost happened and at a young man's life that kind of added before it was beginning. And just like this thing that didn't need to take place. It didn't happen. Yeah you know there were just so many moments when things could have changed and yes the resources were never available to the right people at the right time Brett. Who called nine one finally like who discovered the so? This is kind of a funny story story. It's slightly funny. It's GonNa feel funnier because this has been so sad. So Steven Schwab. The Unsuspecting Dog Walker comes home and tells his wife Linda. The dog followed him home and point sue this majestic white dog that standing outside with blood on his paws and so their neighbor Sukru bows Teppei comes home at that time and Sukru and his wife Bettina decide to take take the dog out for a walk to see if they can maybe wind down her finest house they take him for a walk out in the direction of where Stephen found onto him and the dog keeps getting more nervous and pulling them more and more and around on midnight. The dog stops in front of Eight. Seventy five bundy drive. The house is dark enough that they wouldn't have noticed anything if the dog hadn't been pulling them toward But they lean in and look and see what looks at the time like Nicole lying down and all around her so she's she's like visible almost visible from the street. If you like come up to you concentrate if you I mean 'cause there's a long walkway and Nicolas's at the bottom of her front steps so Sukru invitation after seeing this go to a neighbor of Nicole's and knock on her door and the person who lives there an old lady named named Elsie calls the police because she fears you know. Someone's knocking on her door. That's weird. Oh right okay. She calls nine one one and reports arts and attempted burglary and so officer Robert Risk picks up the call. He comes to el-sisi House and figures out. What's going on and Dan? Then he's the one who Sukru and Bettina take to Nicole's house and then he calls the cavalry zoom and he and officer risk calls the cavalry. Green Okay so after all bad because at the time that this happens. Marcia Clark is sleeping soundly or maybe. She has insomnia as reading a detective novel but in any case she doesn't know what's what's happening but in any case it's the following day that Marcia gets the call from vannatter telling her here's what we found at O.. J.'s case house so far. Can we warrant okay. So then in the call they had gone over to the house. They saw the trail of blood they couldn't get in so mark Furman jumps the offense will and what they say later on is that they come to the house of the ex husband of the victim. They see a trail of blood and so they say that they signed firm in over over the wall based on the understanding that they might be protecting. Whoever lives there from a possible assailant? which you know my my sense of that is like yeah? Yeah and also you reason to suspect that Okay Simpson as a possible victim or a possible assailant right yet. Those are the options again. And that's after a Mark Furman jumps over the wall that he finds the gloves that is a partner to the glove that was found at the crime scene. Nicole Taus wait so they find one bloody glove at her house and one bloody glove at. OJ's house. Yeah that's like how good the evidence of the bloody glove is like how open and shut it is. I wouldn't call anything opening shot at this point. Like it's like a little puzzle. You will give third graders about like this. Detective Simmons it. Does it a crime sane. The assailant cut themselves. Then Blat all over the place and the fact that there's one glove it was at the crime scene and one that O.. J.'s house it's like. I honestly wonder if you could leave more evidence if you tried right right. He's cut up his driver's license and left little shards of it lying in like a Hansel and gretel trail from one murder location to his house. Yeah it's like the kind of evidence. He would have a game of clue but mark Furman found the glove and mark. Furman is a complicated guy and and this will come up and so getting back to marshes call. Yeah so vannatter told her about the evidence he is like. Do you think this is enough for a warrant with. I'm pretty sure he knows. The answer is good. Seem harsh is like yeah. We've both done this before. Yeah sounds mark is like I can go out to Rockingham and supervised the cops that are serving the warrant if you like. And he's like. Yeah that's that sounds good and I'll call. Hi You after I type it up. And then he writes in his like the warrant signed and we're all done and everything's great and mark is like Oh you weren't you weren't GonNa read it to me before you submitted it or keep me in the loop or anything and he's like okay. That's about feels weird but I'm not going to bring it up because I have history the of friction with the cops and let's not make this difficult from the start like let's be on the same team. Let's kiss play allying and then everything in will will work itself out and she's like Oh fell by the way like. Do you really good criminalist on this right. And he's like we are the guy we have is okay. Is He mark Furman or somebody else. No the criminalist is the person who gathers evidence at the crime scene. Okay so that's obviously like one. One of the most exacting jobs. Yeah if you don't collect the evidence in the correct manner and store it in the correct manner and collect and test all of the relevant evidence from a crime scene. Yeah not miss anything and not an advertently destroy. Destroy Anything Right. That's what you need in a criminalist. Yeah you need somebody with a lot of color coded post it notes and very good binders to keep all this stuff in. Yeah You need you need a fiend for binders need a binder yet. This is not what Marcia Clark is going to get. Market talks about the fact that during a previous this case she had actually been so dissatisfied by some of the forensic work that the. LAPD did that. She went to the sheriff's department instead. Oh interesting interesting. And they had to basically Redo the. LAPD's work on her case. Police departments don't seem to like it when that kind kind of thing happens. It's interesting that there's all these people in criminal investigations that nobody makes. TV shows about like you don't have the climax of CSI episode so being that somebody put a piece of evidence in the wrong binder and like a bullet casing went missing and they can't try the case now not yet because I'm not in in charge of TV. Yeah it'll be over for all you bitches once that happens. Yeah I also think of like. I don't people who clean up crime scenes. I'm seeing photographers are really important. That's some good foreshadowing mike is it. Oh Yeah we're going to be lots and lots of crime scene photographs. Don't words like we are going to be talking about like could this be green and yellow leaves. Could it cut it. Yeah you know. I Love Logistics and I just love all the logistics mystics involved. In this case. You'RE GONNA love very shack episode like that's going to be the sweet spot of all this for you. I just want all the project management giving all the This is spoke with Marcia Clark because she is at the end of the day a constantly disappointed project manager. The I've never I've never felt for someone on the show so deeply and it's her standards are that high you know she's laying. He's talking Nevada and she's like why don't we get dory music. She's a criminalist. We had on this other case weeded together where we had to win based on a single drop of blood like she'd had great on that. Why don't we use her on this and he's like no we've already put someone on it and I heard he was? Okay Oh man and Mark Your Rights Okay was not terribly reassuring. Yeah what's his name. I asked and vannatter says it's guy named Dennis Fung which wing rings of a very faint bell for me. That's because Berry Shack said his name. Same probably five hundred times okay in the kind of cadence of where is it. Mr Fong does she know that he's bad or she just doesn't know who he is at all. Martian is that Philip bullivant Adler says he's quote. Okay Hey do you really want to hear that about anyone who's working on a case that you might also be working on like if I were like Mike. I found someone someone to make tote bags for us. You're like Oh were they good and I'll be like There okay doesn't feel great it. Does she make it thing out of it at the time or is she just like. Oh Man. Let's let's hope this isn't as bad as it sounds. No because of course Marcia again like you can see how this is. All everything that we are going to see is going to grow out of a very old structure right where like the. DA's office doesn't totally trust. Trust the cops that they're working with Marcia is kind of known as being difficult a sanctuary because she I guess wants like people who you're better than okay to forensics. Yeah and so her attitude. I mean the same way that like when you go to Thanksgiving with Lake Your family. Who in order to avoid loyd outright conflict with you're just GonNa like grit your teeth and yeah sometimes it's easier to just eat the dry Turkey right? Marcia is like sitting getting there eating the Turkey yes yes like if I like play lying and don't make this difficult for you now. Yeah then you'll come through for me later. You're right. which again like? That's not a healthy dynamic like this was a relationship between two people you'd be like I don't know Marsha a constant theme for our show. I don't know This is so Marcia Marcia after she gets off the phone with Phil all and learns about Dennis buying the okay criminalist goes to okay. Simpson's house in Brentwood and review. The scene. She writes there is a cruiser parked picked up ahead where a uniformed officers directed traffic. A few civilians milled around outside an iron security gate. Some of them have the nervous unfed look of reporters. The vice slipped unnoticed past the press and through the gate where I got my first look. At the larger Tudor Style House overhung with old eucalyptus trees. The manicured grounds seemed to glow an unnatural shade of green in the mid daylight in one corner of the law. Instead of child's playhouse. Okay Simpson might be a has been I thought but he must still. We'll be bringing in serious bucks to Manley Upkeep on this place I love that that's where her mind goes like to me. That really shows that she is a relentlessly. Practical whole person shows up at O.. K. Simpson's house everyone else's like this is an American tragedy. Okay Simpson the great football starring. She's like this is. It's an expensive lawn right. She's like whatever lawn like. She's a practical thinker like she thinks about things in in terms of like functional. Logistics is this also when she does the description of Nicole that you read to us a couple of episodes yes this is so this is where she sort of quote unquote meets Nicole Call. This is also where mark finds out. That oak has a framed photo of him and Nicole underneath his box spring. What that's weird? What's the photo of well? It's it's of Nicole and OJ dressed up for some kind of formal event okay. He's in late Middle Age and he's keeping a photo of his ex wife and himself underneath his bed. 'cause that's that's what time does to us so she's like basically wandering around Boj's house just sort of looking at stuff wandering kind of an apt description because she gets there and he's like like where is everybody so another robbery homicide Guy Bert. Luper is there. And she's like where Tom and Phil Tom Lang and Phil vannatter. You're he's like Oh okay showed up at the house and so tom and Phil took him to Parker Senator to question him. I'll get to that we're OJ. That's where okay is okay. Mark he's like okay that's a good use of their time. Well anyway not for me to micromanage time sure that the detectives are doing their job. He's wondering when someone's GonNa show up on shore around and that's when she notices some guys approaching who quote had the UNMISTAKEABLE Swagger of detectives lives once again Mark Farm entering the story and of him she writes he was a real straight Arrow hair closely trimmed. Sheep pressed a little more neatly than the others. K The main thing she mentioned about Mark Furman is that he is not one for small talk. She calls him politely. Condescending sick burned Marsha so mark Furman is the one who her grand tour of Rockingham first firm and takes her to the spot where he found the glove which is on the path that runs behind signed the guest house. Where Kato Kaylin has been staying? And when the COPS I gotTa Okays House. They woke up Kato and interviewed him and I thought that he was on something because he was super woozy disoriented which like they woke up at six in the morning I feel like I would probably seem pretty disoriented then but maybe he's like super super disoriented but he tells them that he was on the phone with a friend the night before and he heard thumps coming from the wall like a hard enough that like a picture sure that was on. The wall was like Shaken K.. And thought for a second that they were having another earthquake and what firm and tells marshes that he thinks that's the sound of of the killer basically hitting that waller that air conditioner and dropping. The glove is a result hitting it with the car with his hand with his is body like he's running and it's dark and he like runs into the air conditioner or heat jumps over false over wall to get back onto the property and the thumps happen. Open that way like this is. There's a couple of different scenarios for this basically that like whatever impact happens however it was made causes the second glow to basically like follow out of the killer's hand or something is the theory is that. Oj over there committed the murders and then sort of rushed back. Yeah so the car is parked at a weird angle so it looks like it was dislike parked in a hurry so mark Furman tells Marcia that he thinks the killer basically basically ran into the air conditioner and dropped the glove without realizing and marsh asked. Did you pick it up. And he's like no. I didn't pick up a piece of evidence. I'm a real detective that his politely condescending I think one of the one of the sad parts of this case to is that like Mark Furman actually like from the standpoint point of lake noticing things and gathering evidence and giving a shit about details and like assessing a situation like he does like end the kind of impurity deductive realm seem to have been a pretty good detective Affleck. He actually seems to have been better at his job. A lot of the other people here interesting because firm and was the first I detective assigned to the case very briefly. They gave it to him and then they're like actually. Were giving to robbery homicide. So you're cool. Kissed you know. Go back to to the bench. He was on it very briefly. The other thing that Marcia points out though is that Furman also seems seems to be totally star struck by O. J. Simpson. This is what she says as we walked the lawn. That sloped north toward Ashford. We came to a bronze statue of a man in football volume a form. He was holding a helmet firm and stopped in front of it. He got that when he won the heisman trophy he said is if it was something I should know I sneaked need to look at ferment. Out of the corner of he was staring at that statue with one guard off my God just so weird. It's the dumbest Shit. How so the guy? The Statue of himself in his own house. Yeah and also one that his his son from his first marriage attacked with a bat. At one point I know Mark Furman is not every man but I'm just thinking of all the men that accuse women of like being frivolous for being into fashion or like the royal family or whatever it's like also. Why do you revere? OJ Simpson OCCAS. He can pick up a ball and run it across a line faster than the other boys can run it across a lion also avoid other boys who are trying to tackle him and the and yeah yeah yeah. Women's Women's hobbies are really really silly there right literally. Everyone's interests are stupid. We should all use the middle. My interests are stupid. Yours are fun we can all be interested in serious things all the time makeup this frivolous or frivolous. It's fine mark. Furman based on his taped statements lake is quite racist yes even he is like wow yeah. It's it's the fastest boy. So this is Marsha The Marcia Clark this is it this is this is the world she's in. Yeah and everyone's like. Why is Marsha doing her? Make up that way and it's like yes. If only Marsha could master whatever you want her to do with foundation. This trial would swing her way way like the detectives would be competent and liberty wouldn't be the one force more powerful than racism. It'd be locked in a weird bureaucracy. Worship has to not really mentioned to their faces a terrible behavior of the detectives that she's working with because she has to maintain a good relationship with them. It's like if only if only she wore lighter colors all that we'd go away okay. So marshy goes back to the office she wants to hear how the cases going. She wants to know if they've arrested him. How has the interview gone? What are they figuring out at the crime scene? She's like waiting for the detectives to call her and her boss. David Kahn is like why don't you give them a call. And she says he was right. Why sit here like some? I'm deb waiting for a prom date. I Rang Parker Center which I love. This is her prom date. She's waiting to these detectives to get back to her and they're like Oh yeah. We interviewed him And we taped it. Don't worry about that and she's like so where are you holding him Oh no way to. This is where we we now intersect with Paula. That like they let him go right eventually. They let him go and interview him for slightly over half an hour. A what uh-huh we there's blood on the there's a trail of blood. Yeah I mean trying. Do you want to hear some of the interview interview. Oh yes please. Extremely the other amazing thing created by the way is that he already has a lawyer at this point like not loyalists. He's he's the already has a lawyer on hand but he decides that he wants to talk to the police by himself without council will what just why not and this is just my guess but my guess here is that he's like I'm okay Simpson. I can get out of this right. I can talk my way through it and they kind of let him. Oh God and so when Marshall gets the tape of this the way she describes it as that she like sits down now in her oversize leather at chair and she like gets ready to Parse the evidence and Kinda suttles in to listen to this long interrogation where they're going to catch him and his inconsistency ass she's lit candles on the TUB. She's got ah exactly she's in her her happy place and they kind of pleasantly chat with him for half an hour our and our like. Well go call your girlfriend. I guess I wanNA hear these excerpts from the interview. I'm like already mad. Unlike pre mad thinking about this interview. How do you think Marsha feels sales? Oh my God I know I guess. Let me read a little bit of this to you. So vannatter were investigating. Obviously the duck of your ex wife and another man Lang says someone told us that vannatter says yeah. And we're GONNA need to talk to you about that got. It's like an Internet Day. It's like when you catch your child flagrantly currently masturbating and I'm embarrassed to I don't want you to feel bad but like I know what you're so of Anna says yeah and we're GonNa need to talk to you about that. Are you divorced from her now. Okay says yes and vannatter says what was your relationship with her. What was the and okay says well? We tried to get back together and it just didn't work and I think we both knew it wasn't working and probably three weeks ago we said it just wasn't working and and we want our separate ways. What would you respond to that with? I mean I guess you would ask if if if the if he had any reason to be angry with her like trying to feel out if he he had a motive. This is what all of my background knowledge but I notice. He says probably three weeks ago or so we set it just wasn't working and we went our separate ways. My first impulse is to be like. Oh it's like was it totally mutual like you both totally kids like how often do totally mutual breakup happen. Yeah it's kind of a conspicuously friction. Free thing to describe yes okay say. She came back about a year and four months ago about US trying to get back together and we gave it a shot and probably three weeks ago or so we set. It just wasn't working and we want our separate ways and vannatter says okay. The two children are yours. The great that's like me on this podcast just like okay. Okay Yeah I WanNa talk about Michael Bolton okay the two children are yours okay. Says yes says how was your separation and Ochia says for me. It was big problems. Yes I loved her. I didn't want us to separate and vannatter says I understand he made a couple of crime reports or something. I don't think think that vagueness is because he doesn't know what he's talking about I think again it's like um so. This is embarrassing. This also implies implies that he knows that there are reports of domestic abuse. Yeah it certainly seems that he does let me read you the next king. So okay says We we have a big fight about six years ago. On New Year's you know she made a report I didn't make a report and then we had an altercation about a year ago. Maybe this is the nineteen ninety three nine one one call where he's kicking her door in. It wasn't a physical argument. I kicked her door. Something vannatter says. She made a police report on those two occasions and Oggi he says And I stayed right there until the police came. Lang says we were arrested at one time for something and Okay Says No. I mean five years ago. We had a big fight at six years ago. I don't know I know I ended up doing community service like the way he talks about this. It's like if you like spoke Frank Schick child but you haven't since then Dan you like. Oh It's through the misty haze of time. I vaguely remember rice. Rice off doing community service but like it just feels like he has an integrated as part of what he sees as his act passed. Yeah but he hasn't thought much about it or see he doesn't eat at significant. I wonder if they are art domestic abuse illiterate to the degree that they don't see a connection between the previous charges and the possibility of him having committed the murder yet. That's what I'm wondering to Lake like seeing it as equivalent of like a burglary charge or something that like he's got dryers but like maybe that's kiss nut super relevant. I don't know credible. So he says has after the recital was the last time he saw Nicole and her family and he claims that Nicole's mom invited him to dinner but he said No. I have never heard it. Anyone else say that that happened. So That's interesting I would find it interesting. If like even in a police interrogation he's like lying about something irrelevent event that just seems to be about his pri- that's like. Oh no Nicole's mom totally wanted me to come to. Dinner is like he can't not lie. Fascinating fanatic says. Where did he go from there? Ok Okay says Home home for awhile. Got My car for a while. Tried to find my girlfriend for awhile. Came back to the house sick a little poem. Yeah so what. Do you think you got back home. Actually physically got home. Seven something outer says seven something and then he left and and again. It's like so you're leaving. It was seven something like seven something. Yeah that's Yes it is mystifying. Right 'cause like this is not their first time being cops like they know and then he left and he says yeah. I'm trying to think did I leave. You know I'm always I had to run and get my daughter awesome flowers I was actually doing the recitals so I rushed to get her some flowers so now he suddenly talking about before the recital. He's like switched to a different period of time right and I came home and then I called Paula as I was going to. Her House and Paula wasn't home. Okay Fan out our Paula. Is Your Girlfriend Simpson girlfriend. Yeah although she had actually see broken up with him by voice mail them so even that little exaggeration to he's like yeah my girlfriend. That's the ticket. My girlfriend who broke up with me informed to Las Tagus to be with Michael Bolton like all girl then interceded Sierra last night about Paula. Okay Says No. We'd been to a big affair the night before and then when I came back home I was basically at home and then they ask him if he was scheduled to play golf today says yes in Chicago. He was playing with like hurts clients. This is essentially a lot of his work. At this point in his life involves like playing golf. In some way interesting just like glad-handing various corporate people and then vanatter says is. What time did you leave last night? Leave the house okay about the Limo was supposed to be there at ten forty five. Normally they get their little earlier. I was rushing around somewhere between there and eleven vannatter so approximately ten forty five to eleven simpson. Eleven o'clock. Yeah somewhere in that area. I find it so interesting that they put no effort into establishing timeframe during this conversation you and also the fact that essentially his alibi for this whole thing is like I was is at home by myself watching Turner movie like is that the whole even if they have like very incomplete information like even if we're as charitable notable as possible about like what they do do not know like they know that the time between like nine and eleven. PM is extremely important right and they're just like okay next question right. That's a pretty long period of time that he hasn't accounted for or where he's basically given himself these like areas of strategic wiggle room. Like all of these are Beijing assholes that he and his lawyers are going to be able to squirm through later. You're right and they're not drilling on any of them and they're not sealing the they're letting them stay there on the record unbelievable. Imagine Marsha sitting there in her chair. I Yeah No. I'm imagining her. Glass of red wine just like angrily. Smoking a cigarette and the camera zooming in slowly. She's listening to the that'd be riveting. Okay says of Calling Paula. He says I called her a couple of times and she wasn't there and I left a message and then I check check my messages and there were no new messages. She wasn't there and she may have to leave town then. I came back and ended up sitting with Kato which we all got with Kato at the time. Is that his alibi he he did. He came home and he hung back with. He hung around with Kato. Okay so okay says. He went out and got a burger with Kato and and that he came home. Kind of leisurely and got ready to go. This is like a rare moment of the cops like seizing on something. Because Lang says he weren't in a hurry when he came back with the Bronco. Okay says no and Lang says the reason I ask you. The cars were parked kind of at a funny angle stuck out in the street. And Okay says well it's parked because when I was hustling at the end of the day to get all my stuff and I was getting my phone and everything off it when I pulled it out of the gate there. It's like it's a tight. I turn laying so you had inside the compound then Simpson yeah laying. Oh okay the word okay is said twenty. Seven Times in this is transcript and only three of those times are OJ. Says how did you get the injury on your hand as important. Because when they bring him in for questioning they do notice this that he has a cut on one of his fingers again. The evidence to move forward in time a little bit and quote from Marcia. She's will later her say in court. The bloody glove that was found at the crime scene is left handed. That's a very important fact. And then she says there were bloody shoeprints leaving the crime scene and to the left of issue prints were blood drops. So Marcus says that shows us that the killer was injured somewhere on his left side. The blood on the driver's door handle the Ford Bronco would logically be opened with the left hand. And it's no coincidence that we just happened to find the blood spot on the driver's door handle on the day the defendant returned from Chicago. Detective vannatter makes the observation that he saw the left-handed bloody glove left at the crime. Scene clearly came off during the struggle. which is what allowed? Got Him to get the cut. The left the blood drops to the left of the footprints vanatter sees the blood drops on the driver's hand door. He sees the defendant with a bandage around his middle left finger finger and then he takes him down Parker Center where he sees again that he has a swollen finger on the left hand with cut. That was dressed and treated a parker center. No coincidence so he literally. He comes into this questioning without his lawyer with a cut on his left hand which the police he's already can observe corresponds with evidence that they found at the crime scene and the police are the ones who dress his wound for him. I mean vannatter says how do you get the inquiry on your hand. He says I don't know the first time when I was in Chicago and all but at the House I was just running around not convincing. Okay also it's like so there's a second time what like you injured your hand twice now. I guess yeah you don't remember getting a deep cut on your hand or like he do remember but it was two different times. Somehow Watch vannatter says. How did you do it in Chicago? Okay says I broke a glass one of you guys just called me and I was in the bathroom and and I just kind of went bonkers for a little bit. Is that how you cut it. it was cut before. But I think I just open it again. I'm not sure so it's like okay. In what he's saying is that he cut the first time at the house getting ready to leave and then he re cut it when he broke a glass in Chicago believable Lang. So do you recall bleeding at all simpson. Yeah I mean I knew I was bleeding but it was no big deal. I bleed all the time. I play golf and stuff. So there's always something knicks stuff here and there and it's like yes okay. You Play Golf. So so you're always gonNA keep cuts on your hands and tumble life of a Golfer. They say when was the last time he wrote Nicole's house. Okay says I don't go in. I won't go in her house. Oh that's an interesting reaction from someone who headed the breakup at a mutual break. I haven't been her house in a week. Maybe five days yes I go to her house a lot. I mean I'm always dropping the kids off picking the kids up fooling around with the dog. You no matter. How does that usually work? You drop them at the pork or do you go win with them Simpson. No I don't go in the house. Vannatter says you haven't had any problems with her lately have you. Okay okay. Says I always have problems with her. You know our relationship nations ship has been a problem relationship then at her. Did you talk to her last night. Simpson to ask to speak to my daughter to congratulate my daughter and everything vannatter. Dan outher beaten have a conversation with her Simpson. No matter what were you wearing last night. Okay okay what kind of shoes were you wearing. Tennis shoes choose tennis shoes. Do you know what kind probably Reebok. That's all I wear. And the fact that he's saying all he wears as Reebok and they're not pressing him on. That either is interesting interesting. Because they're like oh you only wear one kind of shoe and it's definitely not the kind of brand of shoe that was worn by the killer go to a lot of black tie functions and so on you guess where Reebok it reassembled day. So he's kind of making small talk with them about you know his whole life on and off. Airplanes is always flying off somewhere to play golf. The hectic life of Okay Samson and then kind of as the interview is winding down. They start kind of getting to the point and vannatter says okay. We've got sort of a problem. We've got some blood on in your car. We've got some blood at your house Sorry to break this to you pal. We got sort of a problem tillis about Theo. You little literally dangled blood. We found in your little. Okay says well take my blood test and Lang says well. We'd like to do that. We've got of course they cut on your finger. You aren't real clear on. Do you recall having that cut on your finger. The last time you were at Nicole's house. Okay no it was last night and they come back to the fact that they have been trying to reconcile until about three weeks ago Fan. Did you ever Hetero Jay. Okay says One one night we had a fight. She hit me and they never took my statement they never wanted to hear my side and got her the housekeepers side. I'm the real victim. Perfect Nicole was drunk. She did her thing. She started tearing up my house. You know I didn't punch her or anything but I am. Vannatter says slapped her a couple couple times and okay says no no. I wrestled her as what I did. I didn't slapper at all. I mean Nicole is a strong girl. She's a one of the most condition women women since that period of time. She's hit me a few times but I've never touched her after I'm telling you it's five six years ago. Okay is like not good at saying when something happened. You're like okay like when is the movie GonNa Start. He's like between six eight thirty. That's not helpful. Lang asks okay about taking a polygraph test for them. Okay says should I talk about my thoughts on that. I'm sure eventually I'll do it but it he's like. Yeah Okay yes I'm doing it okay. Nicole's mom is quoted in Sheila Weller. Book saying if you're having a phone call with Oj you could like put the phone down down for five minutes and come back and he would still be in mid Soliloquy. I've been on dates like that. Were you accidentally bring up barefoot running and then you get like a thirty five minute long monologue. One of the sad things about this interview is that like it would suck if they had any suspect in a case where there was this Mike Evidence and they put the little pressure on him. But you also get the sense that like it's harder for him not to talk then talk. He's like show. I talk about my thoughts on the polygraph. Yeah well I am so. Let's it's happening. Yeah it almost feels like watching someone take jacobites straight out of a string cheese. It's like why would he saw Naing says understand the reason we're talking to you is because you're the ex ex husband and okay says I know the number one target and now you tell me I've got blood all over the place like it's their fault Okay this is almost over. We're getting Lang once again. Confirms he gets okay to say again like he gives them a chance to go back on this like let me get the straight. You've never never physically been inside the house and Simpson says not in the last week and lying says ever and he says Oh Christ. I've slept at the house us many many many times. I've done everything at the house you know I'm just saying you're talking in the last week or so K.. And it's like I have never been inside the house and they're like you've never been in the house and he's like not in the last week criminal. Mastermind were interrogating here. This is not like a the verbal chess game. This is the last little bit of tape he says. Oh I'll tell you. I did see her one day. I don't know if this is the early part of last week I went because my son had to go and get something and he ran in and she came to the gate and the dog ran out and her friend Faye and I went looking for the dog. That may have been a week ago. I don't know Langton hanged. vannatter got a photographer coming vannatter. No we're going to take him up there Lang. Were ready to terminate this at fourteen seven crack work guys so they have have started this interview at one thirty five PM and ended it at two. Oh seven awesome. That's got him alone without a lawyer. Why take up longer time than an episode of Er good stuff like what was the purpose of this? What did they learn learn? What even say this is like so obvious you sound? You seem speechless. I'm Steininger tell me what comes to your head because I've been immersed immersed in this for so long that these details are pretty familiar to me like I think I've lost some of my surprise. It just seems like at this point. They should like arrest the guy like he doesn't have a strong alibi. The just broke up with his ex wife who he has a history of domestic abuse with and who made a nine one one call about him less than a year ago. Exactly exactly. There's one glove at the murder scene and the other fucking glove at his house. I just don't understand how they're not just like we got boys. I mean the defense will later argue that like the sheer quantity of evidence actually supports their claim that O.. J. Was framed. And it's like you know what kind of like people don't often leave this much evidence behind so I mean they can't have been confused about what any of this meant. Yeah but I feel like they knew what they had to do but they just like didn't into it. What do you think? Explains that are dazzled by his celebrity. Like what what is this. Marsha says they tell her that he's too famous to to flee and she's like bull fucking Shit who cares it doesn't matter there's more stuff you can do. Besides fleeing he could be witnesses tampering with evidence he could be destroying evidence Reich. What are you talking Abou Marsha and talked to him for thirty minutes during which they don't really pin him down on my Cavani thing and then he gets to go? And then there's four days between the police interview and him surrendering and being arrested where he has that time to basically be ironing things out yeah with his lawyers to be potentially doing all the stuff marsha talked about he does seem to spend a lot of time just like dragged watching Turner classic movies but I mean still still but yet contemporaneous like is Marsha as mad about this than we are now. Is it obvious to her. How bad this was Michael? You know Marsha and her ways I mean me. Think about the big one. I are like very soft on crime. People who also don't know how to be cops or lawyers and we're like Oh this is bad. Yeah Marcia is fucking live it. So what does she do nothing. She has to maintain a good relationship with the cop so she can't like go in their bus heads. No she has to be like that was good. Oh No so okay. Here's what Marcia says you ready. I didn't get it. Simpson had spent three full hours at the station. What could they have been doing all that time he was there for three hours he was was okay? I was even more disturbed by what was on the tape. Fill in tombo sounded exhausted. That was understandable. They've been up since three in the morning of hume thirteenth but that was no reason to allow a potential suspect in a double murder to set the program for the interview. Yeah and he. Monday morning quarterback that's us can now see that Simpson Light Tom and fill all through that interview. Of course. Some of the lies weren't as apparent to them. At the time for instance Simpson claimed that he'd been invited to dinner with the Brown family. After the recital which Nicole's mother would later deny Tom and Phil couldn't have known that yet. But on other more elemental points like where and when he'd parked the Bronco Ronco. There was plenty. They could have done laying. What time did you last park? The Bronco eight something replied the suspect. Maybe seven eight o'clock eight nine o'clock. I don't know right in that hat right in that area. Marsha says the follow up should have come hard and fast. Well what the hell was it. Seven seven thirty eight or nine you. You had a flight to CAC act. So shouldn't you have been aware of the time. What time did you park? What did you do then on some fundamental level? I think Tom and Phil wanted to hear a plausible explanation. That would eliminate eliminate some sun from suspicion. Just when they got a big opening. They'd move onto something else and then marshes sitting there listening to this very short interview and gets to to the part where they're questioning him about the nineteen eighty nine beating and asked C.. Slapped her a couple times and he says no. I wrestled her is all I did and they say oh okay and Marsha thanks to herself. Nicole is dead. His children have no mother. He's talking about the time he was arrested for Beating her and once again he is whining about how he feels. Mistreated as I sat listening to this crap. I thought this guy is going to deny everything all the way. He's never going to confess. There wasn't one shred of remorse. They're not enough real soul for him to need to unburden it by telling the truth but that interview was one one of the worst. Bits of police work. I'd ever seen but I kept my thoughts to myself. I couldn't afford to alienate Mike chief investigators. Besides it was felt milk. Complaining about their ineptitude would not help me get through this case so she swallows it. She has to yeah. You guessed half you know you have to say well it's done you know we can go back and we're going to move forward and I'm going to maintain relations with my detectives and she has no power to affect things either. So it's like she. She's he's watching this like US watching a horror movie right that she's like. Don't go in the basement. Don't yeah put these Ding dongs. On this case. We're GONNA fuck it up. Well I'm thinking about the fact. That charity has a reputation tation for like being difficult because of her like past insistence on having like good forensic evidence right. Charity has a reputation for having standard. I mean speaking of the difference difference between Marsha four years ago in margin now is that I think we're all much more poised to hear the word difficult in like a gendered way now like Mike Professional positions who are considered difficult. It usually means like yes. They are insisting on standards or like actresses that are difficult huckle because like they complained about rampant sexual harassment on the set like it just hearing. That woman is considered difficult. I just hear it so differently now than it used to. They didn't want to be sexually early assaulted at work. So she's aware of this dynamic from this is literally day one. So she's like she's seeing this celebrity blindness takeover the entire tire police force already. Yeah she knows what she has to work with is being given kind of in many form. What this entire trial is going to be there for her? which is that she? She doesn't have trustworthy. Allies in the L. A. P. D. everything is political like she's looking essentially like an APP sampler. Uh the next fifteen her life. Yeah and God bless Marcia. Because she has had a day right she goes home to be with her two little kids leads and the wall behind her bed basically gets damp and moldy in spring and fall so she spends like Spring and fall with respiratory infections. This is like so Erin Brockovich to me right. She goes home to her like Public Servant Tract Home in Glendale with her two little kids with her like swamp wall and confines like a spider the size of a pinball. She says hanging out in her room and she's like well. I got a new case. I'm pretty excited Eh. And she writes. I found to my surprise that I was in an indestructible. Good mood true. The cops cut loose the suspect and a double homicide when they had a mountain of evidence to hold him true. They were holding me at arm's length but you work with what you've got. The fact of the matter was I loved having a new case a a new cases like a secret lover you think about it plan for it. It infuses unrelated events with a sense of purpose. That's how it's supposed to feel mind and heart engaged used neither tripping over the other. I hadn't been that happy in a long time. Oh it's like the letters from Nicole talking about being happy with with OJ. It's like looking at the footage from their wedding. It's like everyone's so happy but you know it's going to end in nightmare. No Marcia Marcia it's interesting because I feel like mccheese observing the arc of this for like the rest of her life so like this case destroyed her. She didn't even clean out her dusk after it ended like like someone else had to do it. She could not go back to her office. She never got her desk clean. You know I mean this was at for her. He he was done. This was the end of her life as a trial lawyer really. Maybe this is just me like over identifying with her and wanting her to be like me but I feel like I see and her kind of the thing that we saw in Nancy Kerrigan when she skated at Nineteen ninety-three worlds and just like fellow buying Anka's like the footage of her and that competition. The the camera zooms really close on her face. Her scores are coming back and you can see her feeling like she let everybody down and I feel like Marcia feels like she either has to nail this or let everybody down right. I guess I almost wonder if lake if having an experience for the entire world watched her fail and blamed blamed her for it was like the only thing that could like make Marsha not blame herself all the time. Like what if you know looking at the world blaming you and being like well. That's not totally really true. I didn't screw everything up. Maybe everything isn't my fault right. What do you think I feel like? We struggle to separate the outcome come from the process yet. Like they lost this case it should have been a slam dunk and they lost it like that's an undeniable thing But it's also it's possible to be good at your job and still fail and it's possible to be really bad at your job still win Mike. I do it every day and so I think it's like we look at the result and then we back fill whatever like well if she lost she must have been incompetent he must not have cared. She must have bungled evidence she must and she must be in charge of all of the failures right. All of the failures must be hers. Because she oversaw this big failure right like Marcia is the a dictator of lake right entire legal system in this scenario where it was all under control. I'm sure that marsh made mistakes and I'm sure that. OJ's team made mistakes shoot right once. The victory is locked in that. It's like no. She must have sucked and they must have been geniuses. Because we don't want to believe that we could be Marsha. Yeah we could all be Martian any any time we are all one terrible project management away from just tearing our hair out in the way that she was forced to write. We promise she the Bronco Chase in this episode. It's not happening. We've been recording for five hours and it's getting dark and I was supposed to go outside today so I'm very sorry sometimes. The flat iron of hindsight is slow. Yes what are you excited to talk about next the Bronco Chase. I'm GonNa keep saying never like the next episode until we get to it. What if we never talk about it when he got to keep doing this podcast for the rest of our lives every episode we move more slowly lead toward the goal? Yeah it's it's like that math problem about. If you like. Cut Your the distance. You travel in half the time we ever Bronco Chase Yeah.