Exporting democracy, Brexit and the anniversary of Thatcher


The. Tom Switzer and welcome to between the lines boys. Great to have your company. We'll today on the program later on we'll be chatting with Ted Galen carpenter from the libertarian Cato Institute. And he's argument is that democracy is not an export commodity stay with us for that. Well, forty years ago. Margaret Thatcher lead her conservative party to victory. Not she's just coming into Downing Street. Now here comes the prime ministerial Rover bearing Mrs Thatcher as prime minister. Huge crowd. Huge chair. Lane close police out of a car behind her. Mrs thatcher. Onto onto the doorstep has that all the on lady. She was lighted dubbed. And she said the scene for a wave of providence is Asian and deregulation across the endless fee from the Keynesian mindset, the delivered economic stagflation and the winter of discontent the UK as well as the US Australia New Zealand, we will move to an era of Santa policy and more durable prosperity today, though, the cause for competitive markets and free enterprise and peas quixotic polls show rising support for socialism, especially among Molyneux's in Australia, the US and Britain. There's widespread anxieties about white stagnation. Paypal being processed out of the housing market, and the vast concentration of wealth now with Britain's ruling conservative party in disarray and against the backdrop of a chaotic British exit from the there's a real danger. Britain is looking to the lift suddenly the prospect of socialist, Jeremy Corbyn in number ten s no longer remarked. So what should today's conservatives? Thatches children. What should I do to Montgomery is founder of conservative home and former editorial page editor of the times, Tim, it's great to have. You in Sydney is great to be here. Thank you. Take us back for decades to thatches election victory. When I really was a fat to child. I was nine is old when she came to power. But I remember my school being closed for two weeks because we'd run out of oil. We were all have to be sent home to work, which I remember, my mom, not being very pleased at but that was just one of the illustrations of a decade where Britain was seen as the sick man of Europe. We had a period in the mid nineteen seventies. When people had to turn the lights off really at ten o'clock at night. There wasn't enough fuel to get the country. There was a three day week factories had to shutter for most of the week simply because of a massive crisis in energy way unions, really were run Scott hill union, thuggery creek and in the motor industry right across manufacturing and what Mrs Thatcher. Most of all I think seeded in doing was that she put the government back in charge of the country. There was a feeling that unions, a militant left wing. Unions really running the show, and Mrs Thatcher restored the idea that Britain was governable that's about what direction Britain should go in. But the idea that someone was in charge. It you've argued that Thatcher today would not identify with many of those people who are known as Thatcherites. What do you mean by that? There is a view of Margaret Thatcher. As the sort of great libertarian reformer who left all parts of UK economy and state untouched. Actually, there was quite a pragmatism to her. I think some of her Monday disciples of forgotten that Britain's national health service, the the welfare state the system of higher education. I could go on she left a lot of that. Untouched. Think she realized that if you wanted to win the battles that really needed to be one probably being taming of the trade unions fighting the Cold War ensuring the survival of western. Civilization against communism. She knew that she had to focus on a few things. So this this idea of the iron lady, this unbending woman, this libertarian reformer was true in some respects. But also there was a pragmatism. Now like, many of fetches children, you are a conservative and supporter of free markets. I think you've written that you've had a treasured photograph of you and fetch on your wall when your child thanks revealing that, Tom. On the people had Popstars stars on that. On that. I had that. And yet you ride not so long ago that you have found yourself agreeing with much of what Jeremy Corbyn, and he's socialist treasury spokesman John McDonnell have said about economic insecurity, homelessness business. What I don't agree with is their recipe for putting it, right? But we are ten a little bit more now than ten years after one of the biggest economic events of modern times, the crash that happened the banks that were rescued when we had those failures on a Wall Street in the city of London. I think there's still a sense across electrodes in the western world that capitalism isn't working is should people. Don't think the next generation is going to be as wealthy as them certainly not wealthier the housing market seems to out priced lot of younger voters. The pay of chief executives in boardrooms seems to no connection with the underlying performance of of the businesses. And if conservatives center right parties do not reform capitalism. I didn't think we can be surprised if voters vote for people who will reform capitalism, but not reform captors way that works with the graying. But against the throws the baby out with the bathwater. Let's get your reaction to something that Kenneth clock. These days known as the father of the UK house of Commons. This is what he told the BBC's. How talk recently I assumed nineteen nineties the great normality, the emerging economies wrenching the system, we had a gruel space globe Lauder in Britain. We had growth with low inflation Konami was marching or capitalism. Work for everybody. Go free markets. So the social conscience to work. Faye? We neglected we failed. And nobody knows how to do it. Now. How to include those people who not to be able to take leading roles who's living standards have stagnated or sometimes Fulham subsequent time those towns communities those regions that old industrial. And that's where the protest is coming from the Trump vote. Yes is very similar to the protest votes. We get here. Clot the veteran. Tory minister it's been in the common since the early seventies. That was on the BBC's talk. I'm talking with Tim Montgomery, British rata who's against the center for independence. Studies this week in Sydney falling on from those remarks team class onto something isn't he this backlash against capitalism helps explain the Trump vote the Brexit vote the Rosza populism across the European continent. Absolutely Brexit, for example, is is a cause I support I support Brexit because I think Britain should be self governing nation, but driving that just as some of those other electoral upsets, you you mentioned was a sense that ten years after the crash the people that caused it the bankers who made huge profits when the curve was upwards, but one punished when the crisis hit the politicians in the central Bank that. Guided over that crash a largely still in power. And I think when the crash I happened. I think there was a sense that my goodness. Is this time when capitalism is in real trouble. But what voters did at that time was actually they voted for people like BRAC Obama, David Cameron, Kevin Rudd who actually were more sort of manages they held onto nurse for fear or something they wanted to ship to be steadied. But actually wants the ship was studied they actually did want the super tanker to move in a different direction. They didn't want to go back to the days when the banks were too big to fail when the CEO's could run their businesses and telephone number salaries without some connection to their underlying performance. And I think complacency has sort of set in amongst the friends of capitalism, we haven't acted upon the need for reform that those events in two thousand seven and two thousand eight made absolutely clear was necessary. A Wall Street Journal had an editorial earlier this week about the last quarter growth. Of three point two percent, which is really quite impressive and their argument is tax cuts. Deregulation? Classic sort of free market principles are responsible for the American bull run. And that's up -solutely hoping lift Wijers something that hasn't happened for quite some time. So cool new then argue that the conventional free market policies, they actually still can work. Look, even though Britain has this Brexit blind at the moment because of the indecision of our parliament Britain actually is growing faster than Germany France, Italy, Spain really because of the fat derived inheritance. So I'm not saying that what Mrs Thatcher. Ronald reagan. John Howard did is irrelevant. But to look at is this sustainable is capitalism reaching enough people. And I think there are plenty of injustices in captains wages may be rising. But house prices are probably rising faster, for example. There are all sorts of long-term dependencies on welfare where people. I just don't feel that this hope around the corner. And if we don't address those things as people who are friends of capitalism, we risk people taking over who have a more revolutionary rather than ever Lucien reappraise complicates matters to is the wife of technological change, you know, artificial intelligence automation, robotics, a what happens to the loses of technological change and globalization team. I think ultimately, you can't be a Luddite and say we to reject technology. We've got to embrace it is inevitable. If we don't embrace it in the west other parts of the world. Most certainly will. We can't say that free trade overall is not a good thing. It's the reason why world hunger. I'm well, poverty is falling. I think it's a question at the pace at which we do these things. Well, I think we have learned is that the welfare and education systems of western democracies have been nimble enough helping workers move from the current industries in which they're employed to get the new skills and the new incentives. To be ready for the new jobs. And so we may just need to take a slightly sort of more gradualist approach, particularly globalization by also to some technologies so that people aren't left behind in these periods. My guess is the British rata team Montgomery, and we're talking about the fortieth anniversary of Margaret Thatcher's election in the mid seventies. Thatch up a supported Britain's entry into the common market. So we'll never know. Of course, would you have supported Brexit? This is a great debates in in Britain. And of course, what you rightly said is that as she supported the entry of Britain into the European Economic Community. That's what it was then called this down called a European Union. And in those two different expressions is really I think the answer to your question, the British people they were joining common market, the ultimate Britain would still be in charge of immigration policy. They didn't think foreign call. It's would be overruling courts in London, and they didn't expect to be sending billions and billions of pounds net into Europe to pay for the privilege of belonging to this this club and Margaret Thatcher. Famously at the end of our time in office as we haven't rolled the frontiers of the state in Britain to only see them being reimposed to European level. I think therefore a while others would disagree. I think she would absolutely been champion of Brexit. Okay. There's not question there's paralysis in Westminster about this issue. How do we end this paralysis? I mean could a general election be the only way to to break the deadlock because we've got this deadline now that goes back to what type of thirty one chaplains to be hallowing. How do we end this paralysis team while it is a mess at the moment. I think long term the dysfunctionality that we see in Britain is a short term necessity or characteristic of a divorce process, but we're divorcing something. That ultimately, I think is a much more dysfunctional institution than the comprises. We see in in Britain, the U has twenty seven members days all on different political and economic cycles getting out of that ultimately will be good for the UK. But how do we get out of our media problem? I think it probably is going to be a general election will be necessary. Probably by the end of this year. We have local elections this week, and we have European parliamentary elections light of this month. And of course, Britain will be participating in those elections because they're still out of the European Union live a bullet poll suggests that with the way things are going Najah Farraj new party. This is the so-called rigs it party together with these old one you keep they will decimate conservative support. You don't have preferential voting its first past the post voting. So could Brexit end up meaning Jeremy Coleman? Well, that I think is the real thing that a lot of conservatives are now frightened that. But the Tory party is in more. Trouble than I can ever. Remember it being in even worse than after the Tony Blair LANCELOT nine ninety seven opposite. Because the Tory party said absolutely clearly after the referendum that they would implement the decision and under Theresa May who's been as band, a prime minister as the first female, prime minister. We had was a was a good one. She's just been unable to do anything else Brexit as absolutely dominated the last few years of parliamentary time, and she hasn't been able to deliver it and the public. I'm particularly the conservative voting public are furious. And if brigadiers reversed how history view this moment, I think it will be humbling for for Britain, if the fifth sixth largest economy in the world a nation with so much prestige in my belief, and so much Rene Sant's enjoyed partly because of Margaret Thatcher. If it cannot extricate itself from this European superstate, I think not only we remain in the European Union. I think we will be a much diminished member of the euro. Opin union as well. I think Kohl's for the UK to have influence in the will be much diminishing. I didn't think our voice will be taken seriously because we will have looked like a something of incompetent nation in. How we tried to exit team. Always great to see when thanks for being in the studio today. My pleasure Montgomery, he's founder of conservative home. And he's a former comment editor at the times in London as well. As a senior advisor to end duncan-smith who was a former Tory later urine are in. Well is democracy and export commodity. Remember after World War Two. The United States was able to turn Japan and west Germany into viable, liberal democratic Steitz or is democracy. Do it yourself in a prize requiring special sick and stances and conditions as Owen Harries pointed out in these boy lectures in two thousand and three you think about those use led wars in the Middle East since September eleven Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, it's fair to say that democracies in short supply in that part of the world, isn't it? Well that skepticism about the use of American power to export democracy. That's the view of my next guest. Ted Guilin capita is senior FILA for defense and foreign policy. Studies at the Cato Institute in Washington, he's author of gullible superpower US support for bogus form democratic movements. And that's just being published by Cato Institute press. Hi there Ted. Hello. Now, you are given is that US leaders especially Ronald Reagan in the nineties. I've all too often preached the virtues of promoting freedom. They've often supported a lot of democratic movements across the world. But the revisionist historians your critics did they might say this is just a cloak for American pursuit of its own security and economic interests even empire. How would you respond to that criticism? Well, certainly understandable criticism because you policymakers over the decades have often portrayed dicta, toil vision as members of the free world, and they had to know that what they were saying really with not true. And it's certainly possible that the rhetorical support for foreign democratic movements during and after the cold that the American leaders felt that some of them were not really democratic on the other hand why bit? It comments from many of those American officials, including breaking including George W Bush. So just about at some level. They really believe the people they were supporting were in fact advocates of democracy and freedom. So I am mixed record. I don't want to say that everybody was taken him by foreign activists. But at least some policymakers work, and you mentioned Bill Casey, the CIA director in the Reagan years in his will he left more than a hundred thousand dollars to support freedom fought at movements around the world. I mean that suggests something more than cynicism, doesn't it? Exactly. That's something that suggests a deeply held personal belief, and while they might have been tempted to exaggerate the democratic credentials of some of the clients that Washington. In was supporting it seems unlikely that they were so cynical that they knew that these clients were thuggish undemocratic individuals and movements but decided to portray them as proponents of democracy, and what about the former Yugoslavia because this. She marks the twentieth anniversary of the Clinton Belay intervention in Kosovo. In fact, I think it was I pro- my non thousand ninety nine so twenty years wasn't that intervention? A success? Did it was eighth except in very narrow sense. That it terminated the fighting the happened both in Bosnia nineteen ninety five and Kosovo in nineteen ninety nine and it achieved eventually independence for coastal. But coastal is run by a stugotz, mafia style regime. With a little more than a very thin democratic saw in Bosnia the situation, maybe even worse that so-called country. I call it. A pretend country is utterly this functional politically and economically. It is in international ward. With no end that status. Incite we're talking now almost a quarter century later in the case of Boston. What about Libya in twenty eleven Hillary Clinton famously said off to that? Brutal thug. Gaddafi was killed and dragged through the streets. She said we came we saw he died wasn't that a success. Well, a lot of other Libyan's have died since then. So no, it definitely was not a success. It was perhaps the most fun necessary military intervention. The United States has launched in the post, Cold War era, even more so. Than the Balkan interventions and Iraq Sadafian, obviously, disreputable disagreeable character. But what the United States in its NATO allies on leached in Libya was utter chaos. That's still is not resolved. We was talking at this moment about fighting going on in and around the capital of triple. What we brought there was to create Libya as some Malia on the Mediterranean. Incredible violent chaos. Multiple parties fighting it out and innocent refugees desperately trying to get across the Mediterranean in small leaky boats, and many of them capsizing with thousands of people drowning in the process. You know, I think in faintest to Defense Secretary Bill Gates at the time he argued that this idea of regime change in Libya was fraught with a diner of all sorts of unintended. Consequences. It sounds like your argument, then is very similar to John Quincy Adams, the former president and secretary of state. This is what he said adding Twenty-one Ted quote, America goes not abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She's the well wishes to the freedom and independence of all. She's the champion and vindicator only of our own that was a wide strategy. Then it is probably in a wiser strategy. Now Adams also emphasize that if the United States ever enlisted under banners other advantage on even they were supposedly the banners of freedom and independence would be caught up in every manner of oil every manner of plot in the world by individuals and organizations that you served the banners of freedom and independence in democracy. That's exactly. What we've discovered over the past several decades, most of the clients and candidates. We support have turned out to be anything, but advocates of freedom and democracy. They range from corrupt pursuers of crony capitalism. I guess that would be about the kind of Trump the us to psychotic thugs to slot extremists. And that is not a very impressive tracker. My guest is Ted Guilin Cavantou to throw of gullible superpower US support for bogus foreign democratic movements. That's just that by Cato Institute press. It was recently reviewed sympathetically in the New York Times today is also contributing to both the national interest and the American conservative magazines now Ted for decades, you've been affiliated with the kinda winced. A this is a leading libertarian classical liberal think tank in Washington. You've spent much of that time criticizing US foreign policy, especially the notion of exporting democracy, but also American global leadership now in the wake of non living Americans adopted, a hawkish interventionist will roll, but it's fate to say that public opinion polls, certainly in recent ease have shown list support for an interventionist foreign policy with Trump's America first agenda in Washington. Do you feel a sense of intellectual vindication? In perhaps the same way that George Kennan felt the little vindicated when the Truman administration ice, I would ministrations adopted the doctrine of containment that he outlined, but that doctrine often, took terribly perverted distorted form. And that's what's happened. With Trump administration from talks a good game from time to time about avoiding regime, change wars, nation, building crusades, and so on and revamping recent sibling, America's alliance, but if you take a look at his actions, they greatly resemble those of previous administrations, not cutting back on unwise commitments, and in fact, when extended least in the Middle East, he seems to adopted even more hawkish strategy than its predecessors. That is not a good development and Frank. It gives the doctrines of nonintervention ISM or realism and restraint. Hey, bad name. I think realist need to really be very cautious about any associations with Donald Trump horse administration. Will is there a dynasty? He that. I mean, ovo Trump clearly defeated Hillary Clinton impact on this campaign to limit America's involvement in the world in twenty twenty could he say the pace issue to a non interventionist democrat. I mean, many Democrats are also fed up with endless wolves. Let's get your reaction to Senator Buni Sanders here at of all places. A Fox News townhall recently you looking at a guy once again, not only voted against the war in Iraq. I helped lead the opposition. And if you go back to you too. And what I said, then is that was have unintended consequences in the last month. Og led the along with Senator Mike Lee was a conservative from Utah, Mike, and I led the effort in the Senate and some really great people in bipartisan way, let it in the house, and what we said, let's get out of Saudi Arabia. That's the bell a bipartisan approach so that we do not continue to be engaged in wars like Afganistan, which is what eighteen years and one. That was Senator Bernie Sanders at a news townhall recently talking about a War Powers Act resolution that would have ended US involvement in Yemen. It's a five civil war. Now, this was in the context of Bernie Sanders vow to stop America's endless wars. Ted Guilin competent, coming courage in comments of there have been comments by some other Democrats who've seen gained an allergy to unnecessary wars. But they're also very much hawkish elements within the democratic leadership and within supporters of the Democratic Party. In fact, many Democrats attacked President Trump for trying to be combination with North Korea's regime to reduce tensions on the Korean peninsula. They criticized him for wanting to withdraw US troops from Syria and Afghan. So the Democratic Party appears to be badly split on the issue of war and peace. So the whole smart live to fight another day. Ted great to have you on the program again. Thank you very much Ted gallon carpenter. He's author all gullible superpower US support for bogus foreign democratic movements. That's published by Kate. Hi press, and we'll put a link on our website. Well, that's it for this week show. Remember if you'd like to hear the episode again, download segments since twenty fourteen just go to ABC dot net. Taught I use slash Aren and follow the prompts to between the lines all you can listen via the IB listen app, or wherever you get your podcast, you can even subscribe. So you never miss an episode on Tom Switzer IB containing next week.

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