015 H. H. Holmes
Since by the next time. We record ghostly game of thrones will already be over. I thought we go around the table and tell everyone who you are and what house of game of thrones you'd most attentive, I with okay. So I'm Rebecca, and I'm most identify with house stark. Yeah. Wouldn't has buddy identify? And that's me. I'm everybody your every woman. Yeah. But I'm prayed up to you. I'm brave. I'm good at heart. Right. Like, I told side aria I'm like a combination between the two. Okay. Well, my brain. There are going to be some people that have never listened to or never watched game of thrones excuse me. So sorry for you guys. It's just gonna be a couple of seconds. Now, we have a special guest Mondo. Would you like to go next? Sure, I'm Bondo. And I believe I like house gray. Joey are I? Why why house great joy, mainly Seon? And I mean, they like they like boats. I like boats you do like boats. Yeah. You know? I was going to say that I thought you were probably gonna be closer to house Baratheon because you're kind of a mixture of Robert and gingery gingery because you liked to work, really hard. And Robert because when you party you party hard can because you like to eat hogs, can I switch sides. No, you can't no. A good, man. Those injury though. All right. And I would probably say that I am Pat. And I am house. I'm gonna go. Tar garin. You're wearing a house Tarbert, Ian shirt. Yeah. That's why that makes why go house tug Aaron will. You do like to be in charge. Sure. No. No, it's good. It's good. No. You you have that fire in you. But the, you know, and you've got a Braveheart, but you are also very fair when you run your classroom about the what about the mad king? He all right anyways. This isn't a game of thrones podcasts. Okay. If you would like to listen to a game of thrones podcast. I think the Devi M P E network has a podcast about game of thrones. Okay. We should check it out. All right. So for this episode. We are bringing back Mondo for those that don't remember Mondo is right down the middle on his belief. Sometimes he sides with the skeptic ideas. And sometimes he sides with Rebecca's openminded beliefs. So Mondo have you been I've been good. We are really excited to have you back on the show one of the reasons that I asked you to come on is because you share my passion of researching Chicago history, and we've had a lot of great talks about h h Holmes. Yes. S? So when did you first discover h homes in that was way going bad? Probably when I was a teenager. My mother had told me about him. Yeah. And she was like the only person I knew that actually knew about h h Holmes the original triple h the the original triple h we also had a triple h on our Winchester house episode deli. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. But I know used to get the books that would talk about murderers and stuff, and you told me a lot of stories around the campfire. Yes. Always good. So when did you discover h home a lot of people I did not discovered him until Devon the White City. Wow. Yeah. I that that book came out I ever sink thinks about it. And it sounded cool. I had no idea what it was really gonna be about. And all of it was a revelation to me of who this guy was had no idea than your followers of h homes. Is that what you're saying? Well, not now I am after reading that book. Okay. Yeah. I would not say, I'm a supporter of oh, no. I wouldn't say I'm a supporter. I also discovered h homes during devil in the White City. And unlike a lot of people I was more into the book for for the other parts about the world's fair than I was about h h Holmes? Whereas I kinda. Dover, some of the architecture. What that's the best parts of the book make some of it. But it got really the books. Look. I mean, sorry. Okay. So I wanted to start this off by saying that I saw another random white garment for those that follow the show, and it was at the train station. It was yesterday. I believe and I'm thinking, maybe this is some kind of sign that will forever be talking about the woman in white. Yeah. No. You sent me a picture of it. And it's another perfectly clean white. I think shirt again, I tall in this one. But I could post the picture, but it's one of those things where it's one thing to see a white garment, but for it to be clean, like not a speck of bird on it. Yes is weird. And then I saw a comb in front of where where we did. Nerdy dirty every day. Is at the center stage yet it was centerstage theater fifth at different comb every day than I only used it once though. Oh, it was fine. But no, I really think this is weird. This is happening you ever seen just a white garment at a train station. No. Yeah. We'll ICM all the time. Now. I guess. Yeah. I guess that's my thing. So this is going to be a really good episode. It's got a ton of history. And I will admit there are some very spooky things associated with h h Holmes. Yeah, I was not expecting that. When you first suggested this episode. I was like I've ever actually heard any ghost stories associated with homes. It's yeah. It's a creepy story. But no there's actually several. All of them. There's a lot of goes stories associated just with homes too. And then there are some that surround homes in his victims. Yes. I think that's the correct word to use form victims. Right. Yes. Okay. So we've been getting a lot of new listeners, and I'm really glad that you all have found us. But I thought that because of that maybe we haven't talked about what this show is trying to accomplish in a while. So maybe we should maybe we should bring that out. Yeah. Yeah. Just do you want me to run through? Yeah. If you like, okay. So we're debate. Right. So our goal is. We got we cover the history of the topic. And then I tell go story, which is based on all the kinda the sightings or things the reported kind of get us in the mood. And then I go through the different sightings and things out there. And talk about what I think is true. What I think is maybe dubious, and then Pat and now today Mondo gets to join in on what you think of down the middle. So I'm really glad to have him on the show. We really believe that you should know all the details before you claim to be hashtag tag team, skeptic or hash tag team believer. I would love it. If everybody came in like Mondo and was right down the middle. And this way, they could hear what we have to say in decide, but we are not really trying to change people's mind. We just wanna give you all the information. Right. We're never gonna come to a conclusion on the show. That's for you, the listener to come to your own cleanup -solutely in. Although I may joke around a lot. This debate is all in good fun. We generally like each other and like spending time talking about ghostly things. So we would do this. Even if we didn't have a podcast. Yes. This podcast is also supposed. To be entertaining. So who we hope you have as much fun listening to it as we have putting these episodes together in I understand that this concept. This idea is not for everyone in. That's okay. I am a skeptic. But I'm looking for that one bit of evidence that will make me change. I have not always been skeptic though. And I am truly sorry. If I fend anyone by my current beliefs. I this is just part of the show. I really do not try to change people's minds when you know, when we're talking in fact, I have a lot of friends that are believers and in a lot of these events that we've gone to the believers actually invite me back to events because I don't really try to push my ideas down their throat. So people have asked me recently, if you're a skeptic than why do a podcast on ghost, right? That's a pretty legit question. Then right. The answer is that Mondo not by the way. That's why kept down going so Notting does not work on a podcast. Maybe one day. We'll do a video podcast for everyone to see you nod goal. The answer is that I am fascinated by the concept of of ghost stories. And I thought we could offer you something that not many can a look at both sides. So there are many podcast and internet radio shows that express one side or the other most are ghost believers and purely that and we want to give you the information. So that you can decide which side you follow on, and you can make up your own mind. And we really want to hear your conclusion. That's why we have a poll. That's why we do these kind of things where we ask you your thoughts. If you're looking for something that is less about the debate in more about believing. I would love to recommend a friend of ours. That does a radio show and podcast. It's called Bob after dark. It's a great show, and he goes into it's not just ghosts. Like, he'll go into ferries gnomes weird legends and things that I had never heard of before as. Yeah. It's really it's just such an awesome guys. Really sweet. He's got so much information too. So yeah, if you're looking for something like that that too I would recommend. So we're not trying to convert anyone to our ways of thinking we only want to make you think that is my goal in. This is to make people think about stuff, but I realized that not everyone is open minded about their belief. So we've decided to start putting times into our show notes. And this will give you the option to only listen to what you wanna hear. It's like an ala carte entertainment. We just hope that you give that you gain something from our show. Yeah. I mean, we get a lot of new listener. So I think that they're people people like the concept, I'm excited for it. And I always love to hear whatever when thinks and. Yeah. It's it's super fun. And it's I think it's unique out there and podcast land. Right. As a listener and a contributor what you think. Definitely the I love the show. And the main thing that I like I love the history. I love the fact that you guys cover everything the way you do. And you know, the fact that you guys are debating, it is is awesome. I love both sides. Yeah. I like to think of it from a different perspective. Phil, absolutely. And you know, that brings us to the next thing that are gonna be our polls from the last episode. I think hash tag team believer came out with great numbers for the last episode and our first time putting our poll on Facebook. Yes, we've made the switch. We kind of had both the website poll and the Facebook poll open, and it turned out. We definitely had a lot more votes on Facebook. So I think Facebook is our Platt Facebook is going to be our platform going forward. And you know, what we would love. To just to keep encouraging people to vote. Yes. And I think will maybe need to try to push the poll little higher up in the the feed a few more times. But but definitely look for it. It's there please follow us on Facebook and votes after the episode of they find us on Facebook. They can search for ghostly podcasts closely podcast is the place, and that's on all social media. And also media goes podcast at it. Okay. So poll results from pests to go Wisconsin, which we did get confirmation from a listener that it is pest ago. Not pitchy. Not pitch dog. Oh, whatever has Iago. Yeah. Era. Bashed to go. So seventy three percent of the voters believe that it is haunted and twenty seven percent say that it's not will that's on Facebook alone. We did have one single vote. That said, Nope. It's not. Okay. So maybe it's like seventy one to twenty nine. Yes. It was a landslide victory. So congrats tag team believer. I think Rebecca did a great job coming out with the evidence for the push to go fire up Assode, and I didn't really bring the thunder. I guess I guess well, it was a fun episode. That was a lot of stuff in there. So it was I really learned a lot. So I think it's time to get into the history. Yes. So this this is probably going to be our longest episode ever. Just to let our listeners know in advance. There's a lot of lot of history, and I'd like to cover as much of it as I possibly can. There is a limit. There are tons of books about h homes. There is a ton of podcast about h homes that focus their whole entire podcast or whole entire book on h home. So there's no way I can cover it all in. This one. But I want to tell you guys what the most recent stuff is about h h Holmes? Yes, there's definitely some new stuff. And and this is again the benefit we are putting those time stamps out there. So if you're someone that doesn't want to hear the history if you'd rather just go right to the ghost stories, you'll be able to do that just look in the show notes. So we picked today to do an episode on h h Holmes because may sixteenth was his birthday. It's a day after were coming out with the episode Mondo. Did you know that? Nope. Yeah. Unaware we we actually wanted to do an H h homes episode about a month and a half ago. But then I looked up his, you know, some information about him, and that was his birthday. And I'm like, Nope. We have to wait. And we actually released information about it on the day that he was executed. That'd be the proper word. Right. Yes. Yes. Yeah. So a lot of the information that I'm about to give you comes from the book h h Holmes? The true history of the White City devil by Adam seller. It's a biography of homes that was released in twenty seventeen definitely worth the read. Although it's more of a history book than a story. So if you're looking for a story, it's not set out that way, but it is really good. So I haven't been doing the time perspective I'd like to do a time perspective in here because I didn't fully appreciate the story until I really fit it into some time. And there's only a couple of things I'd like to talk about most of the murders took place in the time of h h Holmes is murder castle. Or after that. So that's where I will focus our time perspective on in. These days homes might have seen a couple of cars on sixty third street. But that was a luxury for the very wealthy. Most travel was done by train or horse and buggy now both knee in mongo used to live off of sixty third street. I was a little further. Further away. But so I'm sure you've been by the area where the murder castle was. Right. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So of I he tells about it because I've never been there. Oh, really? Yeah. We'll today, of course, everybody mentions it's the post office. But actually, you'll notice it the it is directly to the west of train tracks, and what they had back then was a latte or I mean, I'm sorry. There was a street that actually ran where to post offices today. So when you look at a picture typically were thinking like the post office, it's directly over the house. But it's actually over the street that used to be there. It's so I didn't know that. Yeah. Portion of the post office just at a west of it is worthy castle. Actually was. Oh, interesting. So when they talk about tunnels and things like that. Under the streets. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. That's that's really interesting. Thank you for that. So also too. I would like to say that telephones weren't even invented until eighteen seventy six in most homes did not have a telephone. So you couldn't just get on the phone to call someone in check in on them. Yeah. That really will come into play as you tell the story. Absolutely. So this made it ideal time for these kind of murders to take place thing about it. If someone went missing, it would take you a long while to even realize that they were missing and homes took advantage of this many times by telling people that, you know, oh, these people went on vacation to Europe or they left town or whatever when they were actually murdered right? And there wasn't even really electricity in Houston. No, no. That lightings. But it wasn't. Yeah. It would down the main thing about the world's fair the eighteen ninety three world's fair was. That's why it was considered a White City because they were using electricity in such a large scale to at that time to show everybody that this is the future. Yeah. A lot of a lot of Chicago. People wouldn't go out at night because it was so dark because the buildings blocked all the moonlight from coming in. So you couldn't really see anything. So, you know, that's why it became a big thing that Chicago was his dark city and they wanted to put white so the eighteen ninety three world's fair became the White City. Then that's exciting. Yeah. So here's here's the thing about h home story, it's hard to sort through. Because even today it is filled with so much folklore some even made up by h h Holmes himself. I don't know if you guys knew this. But h h Holmes was a liar. Nice to murder had a suspicion. You had a suspicion. Yeah. He was a liar. Murderer-thief just about everything he actually said that he ran through the gamut. Actually, he said he ran through the calendar of of crimes. I don't know what that means. But I'm gonna say he ran through the gamut of law. Hope I'm using that word correctly stopped me, if I'm not, you're okay. So I'm going to start off with his early life. H h Holmes was born Herman Webster much it on may sixteenth eighteen sixty one that was a month after the civil war began. I thought that was interesting to he went by many names, h h Holmes is the one that sticks the most it was actually Dr Henry Howard homes that was his full name when he changed it. He was born in Gilman. Ten New Hampshire to Levy Horton, Mudge it and the date page price. That's a name right there. Theo date. He had four siblings and was born a middle child. His parents were devout hard-working Methodist, his father was a painter a farmer and a postmaster. So there are a lot of stories about him matching up with our typical views of serial killer like torturing animals or being abused by his father. But I'll fach seem to point to that. He was a good kid. Actually, he always did what he was told a good student that that always attended church in his young life. He was kind of a loner but had a charisma about him. I mean, the ad to be because he convinced a lot of people of things he was a con artist. Even though he never looked people in the is because yet this genetic defect that didn't allow him to he struggled to have people trust him because of that. Well, but he must have somehow got them to buy what he said. I guess. Yeah. I think he think he had four wives at one at one time at the same time at the same. Time. He's the opposite of what we now know of as a serial killer serial killer was very new term in those days. I don't even know if that did it exists in those days, they were starting to starting to call people that a lot of what people have said that he did came after he was claimed to be the devil by others and himself, so although his adult life, he was a con artist and a bigamist we already talked about that people did mention that he had a lust of money, even as a child, I even questioned if he was actually a serial killer or not I don't question that he was a murderer. But that the term serial killer usually refers to a psychological reason for the killings. I believe his killings were all about money. I see this is where I'm not sure because I feel like. You could still be considered a serial killer because he's killing over and over again. And I do think he took pleasure in killing because he could have stolen money from people and not kill them. Yeah. So it's not a questionable. But what you're questioning is the definition of serial killer, not not the facts of this. So lutely. Yeah. No. Like, I mean what he did what he did. But the question is. So what would we call him like a serial murderer? Like, I don't know. Like, what would be the like, maybe we need? Maybe we need better definitions. We'd like to label things in a serial killer has to do with the psychological thing. It's part of the definition of what he's not Ted Bundy, I guess or gay see where the killing is the thing. Whereas maybe for him the killing was definitely part of it. But he also it was about the money. But I don't I don't know. What do you think Mondo like the killing was secondary? So I have to believe that he enjoyed it too. Because that would be dessert. Taking their money and let them go or done something and let them go. But a lot you know, he did that. But he did a lot. He scammed a lot of people out of a lot of money and he didn't kill him. Right. Yeah. He just enjoyed it. He enjoyed getting one over on everybody else. Yeah. But that's the thing. We don't know. We don't know we can't talk to them. And he lied a lot of we can't talk to them. Maybe we. His grandfather died when he was fourteen and left him with a piece of land. And also this was at the same time. He was engaged to be married for the first time at the age of fourteen. What is it with the young marriage? We were in we talked about this with the PLO. Right. Like this young. Well, he's fourteen and getting married. Most men did not get married that early. Yeah. But things were different than I mean, a lot of a lot of a lot of people at the age of fourteen while a lot of men because women weren't going to school. But a lot of a lot of men at those days at the age of fourteen they would drop out. So they could help the parents, you know, raise kids or have a farm or get a job, you know, do something. Yeah. But he continued to go to school, although he was engaged the girl's parents put a quick end to this by sending his fiancee back to her hometown. In New York. Warrenpoint on must've been the looking as is. It looks like. At the age of sixteen homes, graduated from high school and took some teaching jobs in Gilman tin in in Alton back. Then he didn't really need a teaching certificate. You just went through the class. And then you could teach it, right? He married Clara lovling on July fourth eighteen seventy eight. So I think he was seventeen at the time they had met and began dating at a church, social there's stories around this too that somebody was coming onto her and he got upset in stop that. But they had a son together. Robert on February third eighteen eighty Clara was devoted to homes at that time and spoke well of him. This was believed to be his only marriage for love though. Although I mean, of course, that's up to speculation. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, obviously, I'm guessing he didn't stay with her. So will was married his whole life. I mean the rest of his life. They were married, so okay. But he, but he married, quote, unquote, other people. Yes, we'll we'll talk about some of that. I don't cover all of it. But we will talk about some of it. But he he was. She did leave him. He tried to get a divorce. The divorce was actually wasn't wasn't granted. And he claimed that he thought that she had died, and he married three other women. So and yeah, that is something I it was around this time that he decided to study medicine he did this because he believed he could make a lot of money as a physician, especially if he invented some kind of prescription medication or miracle cure. That was his first start of trying to get a lot of money. He I enrolled in the university of Vermont in Burlington the faculty there remark that he was an ordinary student nothing out about him. Although he did seem really excited to dissect bodies. Oh, okay. That met have been a red flag. Somebody could have caught. Yeah. And while boarding at the school. There was one strange occurrence that happened one of the faculty noticed a smell coming from his room. So she went into investigate and was horrified to find the body of an infant child was under the bed. So this is probably not a murder he committed but a body from the class. He was in while now, he liked his homework. Yeah. I made I guess I will say though at this time in history. I know in England, I guess maybe a little bit before this. But there was a lot of grey robbing, you know, to get bodies to us to do medical research. It really wasn't at the scandalous. But it wasn't as scandalous. Poses today in the next thing them going to say he didn't like Burlington and transferred to the university of Michigan's department of medicine and surgery Michigan actually had a lot of bodies. They had some kind of policy in fact that they could have more bodies. So so he's like I wanna go to support his I don't know if he did it for that. Or he just did it because he didn't like, oh he wanted the buy. Yeah. I was at this time that his marriage started having issues, she was like you. You just care about the bodies not mean, and you have the smell. Yeah. You come from. There were reports that he was abusive to Claire, but this is not been confirmed. Some of some of the students that he went to school with after the fact say this. So it's it's really hard to say it's easy to come up with these things after the fact, you know, Clara did leave him though. So that could be some evidence of that she took his son back to her family home. She said that she knew little of him after she left. She gets she she no out of there and live to tell tale. Right. Yeah. One of few. Yeah. So he would teach at the school while while he was attending the school. So teaching classes that he had already went to any did this to make ends meet. There were some weird reports of him bringing in body parts to talk about in class. But this seems not to be true. After looking at some of the man that would have been cool if it'd been like you just walked in with like an arm. It was a foot actually okay was a foot. A foot. Yeah. So the story goes that he was with the doctor the doctor was gonna amputate the foot and he helped him do that. And then he he took the foot. Oh, brought it into class the next day in a briefcase. Probably that's where you'd put it right now. But that that seems not to be true seems to be all folklore. So home said that it was while he was in school that a bunch of students came up with the idea of using cadavers which those people that don't know could ever are dead bodies on to defraud life insurance. Although he claimed to not have done this at the time. Well, he graduated in June of eighteen eighty four then moved back for short time before moving to Moore's fork, New York. I think it's Moore's sounds good to me. Moore's forks Moore's forks, it's plural. A lot of folks there in New York to be a physician in a schoolteacher while he was in New York. There reports that Holmes was seen with a small boy. But that this boy disappeared one day. There was no investigation into this in it teams that it was probably the son the one that he had from Robert. Yeah. His son Robert, and it's okay. Oh, meaning that he killed him. Just like he was dating back to his mom. Okay. I was like how would we not know if that had? Okay. Gotcha. Yeah. So homes moved to Philadelphia. Then after that and got a job as a keeper at Norristown state hospital. I'm not sure what to keep her is. But I know that that gives them access to bodies a lot. I don't think we still have that position. But he quit after a few days. He took a position at a local drugstore. But while he was working there. A boy died after taking medicine that was purchased at the drugstore. He denied any involvement, but quickly left the city some say this was because he was already selling human remains in skeletons was worried he'd get caught. We suffer it really quick with. 'cause you mentioned the miracle cure earlier in the in the medicine, which may be think of miracle max, by the way that was my thought with that with the Princess by the idea of that someone's I taking medicine after purchase at the drugstore that medicine back. Then was not what were thinking of today. People could go in and buy cocaine will end it was a fate by oftentimes the druggist, you don't or you know, what I mean late or they would get like the raw product and kinda like let stuff together into what I'm saying. Yeah. So I mean, it's not like say like today if you bought medicine, a drugstore and knew it was tainted, and you died it would be the drug companies fall Baxter. All but ever. But like now back, then no, it's like you mixed this. You did it and made their own concoction. Right. Yep. Yeah. So yeah. So he very well could have accidentally killed that yet. Put too much of something or whatever. So. Yeah. So he got out of town. And he went to Chicago in eighteen eighty six where he changed his name to avoid being linked with his previous crimes homes founded drugstore on the corner of Wallace in sixty third in Inglewood. It was owned by Elizabeth Holton and her husband. I'd seen his name a couple times. But I can't find it right now. So Mr. Holton. Yeah, that's his name. Oh. So her husband was said to be both an elderly and sickly man, but the actual facts don't support this theory. Her husband was four years older than homes in homes died at age thirty five. So I need he was not an old old, man. And he was not sickly. Either homes was offered a job at the drugstore. He worked hard in saved enough money to buy the drugstore. Although some people think that he murdered the whole tin's. This was untrue as they live for many years in Inglewood as lots of records of them the truth is if anything he probably just skimmed them like he scam. So many people by paying a fraction of the price in cash, and then using what they called promissory notes for the rest. Watches that knew how to play the court system to of. He did. Yeah. Yeah. He would often put up other people's lands. You know, as the promissory note, he would say, yeah. Well, I have partial ownership in this land, which he didn't and. Yeah that eventually caught up with them. But so anybody having to say so far. How's he do a mon-? Does he tell the truth? Oh, yeah. Good. Okay. Home saw some potential in the lot across the street from the drugstore. I don't know if you knew that to that wasn't where the drugstore was originally right across the street from there. Correct. Yeah. And one about purchasing it and drawing up plans to build what was to be called the murder castle. The murder castle was a two story building and was a city block long the first floor had a retail space for drug for a drug store, a barbershop a jewelry store restaurant and a few other businesses. The second floor was set up to be living spaces there was over one hundred apartments set up on the second floor. Hold on. Okay. I'm gonna tell you. I know you're gonna say about the third floor right now. Okay. Gosh, isn't no this is I this is not something that I either I don't I didn't remember this from that book. Or I didn't know it that it was such a big thing. Like when you were talking about it being Mondo about the like on the street less. The like it's a city block like that's walk. And there were a bunch of other businesses in there when I picture the murder castle I picture like a house or like slightly bigger house, and then like it goes up. But it's no this was this. But this is like a city. Block and it had a bunch of other businesses in whatever. And then. Yeah. Okay. So this is okay. I have a different visual my head than I had before you knew Monday. Yeah. They have diamond of or jewelers that were downstairs as well. As other businesses. I believe. Yeah. And none of these people knew it was happening. Might have towards the end. They. Yeah. I I don't talk about that. But yeah, they might have. Yeah. Actually the. The jewel the jewelry store. I believe he might have. Might have killed the wife of the of the jeweler. Okay. And that was during an abortion performed in abortion. And he said that he accidentally killed her accidentally. Yeah. Well that I believe, but he she was his mistress though. Yeah. So any sure about anyway. Also, I was going to mention you know, when you think about him having all these tenants. Yeah. And the guy is known for scamming people for money. Yeah. It's like it seemed like he had money coming in left. And right. Where was it going because he wasn't paying anybody? Yeah. Even mentioned in my really interesting. I don't even mention in my report that he had like three other businesses too. Right. Yeah. So it wasn't until news broke out that the world's fair was coming to Chicago that Holmes decided to build a third floor onto the murder castle, which would be a hotel for the world's fair. Although a lot of reports say that it was never finished. So this is something that's also a lot of folklore about it that you know, he would meet women at the train station and convinced them to come stay over at the at the hotel while it might have been the residence, but it wasn't the hotel part of it. Yeah. Yeah. That was kind of easy too because most hotels were downtown. So for people that don't know where the world's fair was it was pretty far on the south side. Yes. So for people that travel from their hotel everyday to the world's fair they had to take a train from downtown and all the way to the south side to where the world's fair was which was three miles from the from the murder castle. Okay. And so you could definitely walk that. Yeah. Yeah. And the murder castle actually wasn't called murder castle. It was. Time. Yeah. It was the world's fair hotel while when he was talking about putting the hotel and now that I as the drugstore, right, but still young it was like winning never fully opened. So it's not listed on anything as that. Right. He just marketed. Yeah. It is that and then if you're gonna meet somebody some girl that's never been to the city at the train station. I mean what better way to lower them over to their by telling them, they get to stay at the lavish world's fair hotel. Yeah. And remembering to back, then that I mean, the world's fair lasted how long like three years, right? Yeah. I mean, this is live and they put on who's multiple years. Right. Or was it a year? I think it was one year nineteen thirty three world's fair lasted a little longer. Okay. Well, let's three years to me. It took them years to build it. And like, you didn't just build this thing. And then have a run for like two weeks. Right. Even I mean, it was huge. And so when people. Come to visit the world's fair. It wasn't dressed for like a necessarily just a weekend back then because it took a lot of money in time to travel so you were going to plan to stay. Yes while. Yeah. So it was named the murder castle. There was a lot of different reasons. Why people nicknamed it the murder castle one of one one of the reasons was because many of the rooms were outfitted only with the locking mechanism from the from the outside of the room. So meaning people could be locked in the room. Yeah. So chip. Tip general tip. Don't rent a room at only has enough. Settle absolutely just a thought third out there. You'd also headed giant furnace in the basement which homes used to burn his victims remains as well as vats of acid in gaslines hooked into some of the rooms and a lot of soundproofing. Also, don't run a room at a place with that of acidosis. Yeah. The murder murder castle had shoots installed all over the castle to drop things from every floor to the basement things. Like bodies may be now here's the thing though. I don't know how many murders actually took place in the murder castle. It was not many. Menu is really good at getting rid of evidence. We're gonna talk about that. But I I do not believe that there was as many as what he claimed and what people have claimed. To build the castle homes would hire contractors and never pay them. And they would quit or he would tell them to leave and new crew would be brought in. So nobody really knew every one of the plants he came up with the plans himself similar to Winchester Sarah Winchester, but she kept the same crew. Yes. And paid them. Yeah. They were they were on staff twenty four seven at her. When Holmes was eventually arrested. There was not much evidence found at the murder castle. So that's why I say, I don't know how many murders actually happened there. Although the design alone was used as evidence against him. It is reported that because homes head knowledge of how to dissect bodies that he used to kill his victims in southern skeletons off. That's why he had vats of acid in lime in the basement of the murder castle. Nobody is really sure though, how often this really happened. But is believed that it would have been more had the hotel on the third floor been opened up. So they believe that. It was more his plans. Then what he actually did. It was it was hard to get rid of all these skeletons. So the truth of the matter is it probably was not a good plan for him. I did double check and the world's fair ran for only about six months. It opened may first of eighteen ninety three and ended October thirtieth eighteen ninety three. So I suppose if you. Yeah. Six months of for him to learn people in you know, that would kind of make sense. Well, moving to Chicago. Yeah. So yeah. Well, it it love Chicago devastated to one the world's fair was gone. It boosted up the economy so much and it dropped down like a roller coaster ride. So I'm sorry. But we really don't have time enough in this episode to cover all the history of h h Holmes will post a poll question though on Facebook asking if you'd like a special added episode on just the history of h h Holmes? This would be an added episode and not interfere with the regular ghostly episode every two weeks, and I'd love to talk about each of his murders. But I'm going to take a huge jump here because we really need to talk about his conviction and execution. So if you want that special episode just hit the yes in the poll, and that will probably be out sometime next week. Okay. What Venturi led to homes being caught in tried was that he was making a lot of money taking out life insurance plans on people, and then presenting bodies, some of these were the actual bodies of people that had the insurance policies, but some were faked. If he could find a body that looked like the person. The thing is that you could take out life insurance policies on people without them knowing that you did it especially in those days, it has happened in more recent times. But usually, this is a business that takes out a life insurance policy on their employees. Yeah, that's come come up a couple times in the last ten years. So he was so I didn't know that. And after that that was one of those fascinating things to me. It's like you could take out a life insurance on somebody and cash it in without anybody knowing that you had that life insurance policy out that was that's not a good policy. It's still currently you you still can with some insurance agencies. Really well, have basal Scher apathetic. That's for mation. You can get. Yeah. But back then you didn't need any of that. Right. There was a interesting case that happened in New York in the thirties. I believe and head to do with the guy by the name of Mike Molloy. And he was basically like the town drunk and the people at the bar took out a life insurance policy. I've heard this. Yeah. And then they once they had the life insurance policy. They did everything they could to get him to drink himself to death. But that didn't work. So then they began kind of helping them out a little bit by putting antifreeze in his drink. Thumb TEK sandwiches, all kinds of things they even dumped him in the river. And he kept coming back for more. Yeah. He was drinking dry. So eventually, they ended up gassing them to death is that finally we that we have that fell off a what at third story their porch in got up and went back up there and fell off again. Anyways, I'm sorry to go off on a tangent here. So he will. So yeah, you can take on policies on other people. He was convicted of a minor crime of selling mortgage mortgage goods in Saint Louis, but was quickly bailed out during this probably by one of his wives. He would actually travel was ever wives to during this time, though, he came up with a plan to swindle an insurance company of ten thousand dollars, which doesn't sound like much nowadays. But that's three hundred thousand dollars in today's money for him back that well, yeah. So he asked to fellow inmate Marian hedge path to help him find a lawyer that would support him in this. He promised to pay him five hundred dollars. But never did surprise, right? This plan was to fake his own death. When a body turned up to the insurance company, he they became suspicious. This was the beginning of the end for homes. So he got his partner in crime, Ben pile or Benjamin pile to agree to fake his own death. The plan was to have his wife claimed the ten thousand dollars in split. It with homes homes might have had some different thoughts to that plan. Though homes was supposed to find a body that looked like pie till and make it look like he died in a fire, which was something legitimate that he could do but homes decided instead to kill pile and set it up whereas wife would claim the money, and then he would kill her inner children. I Holmes thought of everything in this case he knocked Pizer out and then set him on fire he used chloroform. After the body was burned in case, he got caught it would exonerate homes by saying. That he committed suicide. It was a common way for people to commit suicide back then because you could buy chloroform. I don't think you can go buy chloroform anymore, maybe on Amazon in Amazon if you'd like to sponsor us, we are available just putting it out there except for chloroform. Homes actually collected the insurance money and this one and then wanted to get rid of everyone that knew of his plan he convinced piles wife that she would meet up with Ben in London. But the timing was never right for the meeting. He said that I he would reunite the kids with Ben. And then they could all be together. So he took three of her kids eventually kill them. But told the wife that they were with Ben it sad. The children wrote regularly to the mother until two days before they were killed, and I've actually read some of the ladders, and they are really the kids are just sitting around bored. And then they're like, you know, Howard's gone Howard was one of his kids, and, but they didn't make it seem like it was a bad thing. So they must have thought that Howard was with Benjamin their dad finally things catch up with homes because he never paid Marian. Hedge path hedge path went to the police and reported homes plan so Phyllida Philadelphia detective named Frank Geyer was assigned to the investigation as the investigation went underway. They realized that three of Ben's five children were not with their mother. And the mother was also moving from city to city this was very suspicious because this is not typically what would happen when a spouse dies. So they started to really focus in on. Homes, and it was not easy because of his many name aliases. They linked him to two important houses that he rented one in Detroit and one in Toronto and found remains of piles children as well as drugstore reporting to have sold homes under different names, chloroform and various other things this led to a call out to the Chicago police department that investigated the murder castle they were shocked with the layout of the castle. And the newspapers pushed this story to the front page news after his arrest. The Pinkerton detective agency was hired to track down the location of homes. You know, I used to work for Pinkerton actually what I have a Pinkerton badge to someplace. Yeah. And I wasn't a detective I was security guard. But Pinkerton was also hired to protect Abraham advocates say that's how I know. Yeah. They did such a great job with him. They did actually off that day. Actually, they eventually found him. Him in Boston on November seventeenth eighteen ninety four. He was arrested for the crime of being a horse thief. But they use this just to detain him. Because they knew that there was more. They had a lot of questions about toil. They didn't know if pile was a fake body or the real body and homes kept going back and forth on his stories with us. But they knew that they really needed a confession as there was not as much forensic evidence back that there was no DNA or anything. Yeah. You couldn't just DNA. Check the children and stuff. Many claims have been made that homes head a bunch of torture Queant set up at the murder castle. This was probably off advocated by the media, and led to even more folklore about who homes was but citizens were outraged by the stories, he was the talk of the entire country. It was America's Jack the ripper only he was caught. Homes originally wouldn't confess to any of the crimes, but as more and more evidence of his crimes came out. He eventually confessed to the murder of twenty seven people. The problem with the confessions, though, is that some of those people either couldn't be linked to homes or were actually still alive. Yeah. So some people have put the death count as high as two hundred and fifty people, but we can only really confirm nine murders. This includes three members of the family or four members of pile family, including Benjamin. Yeah. So there's only five other murderers that can be confirmed that he did kill homes was a liar and wanted to sensationalize his crimes knowing that. He would be put to death for killing Ben pipes on his three children. He made a deal with the Hearst newspaper for seventy five hundred dollars for his confession and wanted to give them a story of a lifetime. I believe this also led to allow. The stories that surround homes, but can't be proven or are just not accurate in once again, I just have to mention he's gonna have you know, he makes a deal for seventy five hundred. So again, he's got money coming in. Where's it going? He's not going anywhere. He's in jail while I'm going to talk about that in a second. I wasn't going to say exactly this. But I was gonna tell you what the money was going to be going for. So I may seventh eighteen ninety six h h Holmes was hung at Philadelphia county prison for the murder of pyeho homes remained calm up until the moment of his death. Despite this he asked that his coffin be contained in cement and buried ten feet deep. He was concerned with grave diggers because he was one. And also there's a belief that he was going to try to have another man impersonate him in die for him. That's where that money went went to Rebecca will probably talk more about this. And I will add what my thoughts are of. Of the facts at that time. Introducing hangings usually the person dies because their neck breaks when the body is released from the trap in the ground. This did not happen with homes. He was strangled to death. And his body was seen twitching for over fifteen minutes before being pronounced dead. Twenty minutes after the trap had been sprung going back to the murder castle for a second before homes execution. There was a fire at the murder castle on August. Eighteen ninety five this fire took out the third floor, which was fully operational. The only room that was completed was homes. His office the castle remained mostly intact until the post office took it over in tore it down in nineteen thirty eight. I'm sorry that I did not include many of the details of his murders. But as I said, I am willing to do a special episode just on the history of homes. There are many books about homes as well as several documentaries that spent hours talking about homes, and we just don't have that. Much time. If we wanna keep the episode at a reasonable listening length, which already this is gonna be our biggest episode, ever longest. Yeah. I think he deserves it though. Yes. Can can I vote right now? No, you cannot vote right now. No you have to hear the debate. I well, but you can vote no vote on. All. Yes. I would like I would like to place my vote right now. No. And no. I would like to have more h h Holmes? Yeah. Featured on go sleep podcast. Great. I would like that. We usually take a break after the ghost story. But I think since we're. Yeah. Over fifty minutes now, I think we take a break now. Okay. Let's do it back. Well, LA fella ghost and debate. And do all kinds of fun things. It'll be great. See you guys in a minute. Rebecca, guess what? What's that? Well, you know, how we want ghostly to not only tell into bait. Great stories, but also give back to those in need me. Dale yet. What I've discovered this new app called pod coin that lets you donate to charities with the currency. You earn just for listening to our podcast or any podcast. That's awesome. Yeah. I'm pied coin you earned their digital currency pod. Coin. Just for listening to podcast. That's easy. It is you can then donate your pied coin to charities who will get real money donations. And you can also choose to save your pod coin over time in exchange it for other awards like Amazon and Starbucks. That's great who doesn't like Starbucks. I hope no one. Yeah. Because I love Starbucks yet. They'll give you give cards, right? And you could donate those gift cards to you could. Yeah. So download pod coin in the app store or Google play and use our special code ghostly to receive three hundred points just for checking it out us. Yeah. Rebecca how 'bout that? Go story. All right. Every cow. So let's set the scene. You've made it to the big city. You are so happy to have been born a young woman at the turn of the century America where things are really starting to change. There's a women's building at the world's fair and women no longer just have to stay in their small town and hope to get married now, you can move to the big city, or at least visit it and have some kind of excitement, and maybe even earned some of your own money. Maybe even meet a more sophisticated kind of man. And you do. He's dashing and smart doctor, and he's talking to you telling you about the wonderful safe hotel. He runs that's close to the fair. And maybe he'll even take you there some time just come and stay with him. You move into a small room everything in this place seems odd but strangely enticing twisting and turning under construction constantly, but there's a bustling and newness to it and big city life all around you. So you don't notice the odd looks he gives you. Instead, you believe his lies about how much he likes you and wants to help you take care of you sweeping you off your feet so much that you sign whatever paperwork. He asks you to sign. And one night you hear a click behind you. When you close the door to your room, you try to open the door, but realize it locks from the outside. And then you hear the hissing you are suddenly struggling for breath. Last thing you hear is laughter. This story repeated itself many times at h h Holmes murder castle in the girl was dead. He sent her body to the basement to be destroyed a basement that still exists to this day. Even if a new structure has been built over it those that work above it. No, the stories are true because they still hear the screams and feel the fear of that place. Wow. It's pretty intense. Yeah. Yeah. I have some things for you to sign too. Yes. If you're willing to sign it. I mean, I'm sophisticated. I'm not a doctor though, one a letter to my parents saying that I decided to go travelling to Europe. Yes. And another one is a life insurance policy. I mean, that's just formality ring on ghostly. Oh, okay. The thing to do. Yeah. All right. We ready for our debate. Yeah. Let's do this. I'm going to preface this with. I don't know how much I could really debate on this story. So yeah, we'll see as we go along. So like, I said earlier, I didn't realize how much ghost are haunting stories that there were associated with homes and that around him. So I'm going to start with the one, I guess that would be maybe most known or most popular in some ways, which is the hunting of the castle itself. Right. So as you mentioned the castle burned down. Yes. Not too long after he was caught. And no that's not necessarily true. Well, this before he was executed though. Right. Not at burnt down. Oh, right. Right, right. There was a fire. There was a fire, but it left most of it intact. Gotcha. Well, it's interesting some places say that it kinda gut at the place that was the old evidence new evidence. Suggests that no it was intact until nineteen thirty eight when the post office decided to tear it down. Okay. So I I don't think it changes your evidence say whatever there was a fire there. There's a lot of conspiracy sister who set the fire there were two men that were seen, and yes, you know, but they don't really know if they were trying to cover up evidence or actually just upset with what was happening, but guardless, right? So the eventually like you said in nineteen thirty eight they rebuilt or they built a new building on top of the space. But it said that the basement is still there, and as Mondo mentioned the tunnels and things that are underneath there are still there. And I don't know about any of the equipment. I would assume that they got rid of the vats for the acid those aren't there? But I don't know. Anyway, so people report feeling death and dread when they go by this location that they so much. So that they cross the street and supposedly many dogs what walk in front of it. They kind of force their owners across the street. So the the, quote, I have is pastors pester buys a passer bys passersby there, it is who walk their dogs pass the new building claim that the animals would often pull away from it barking and whining at something. They could see or sense. It was something that remain invisible to their human masters, but which was terrifyingly real to the animals. Okay. So I don't know. I mean, that seems do you mind if I go, I don't know. So what I would like to say about this is first of all really good good points. There. I I'm going to talk about the dogs. I okay because that is something that really rang out to me in the story there dogs do have this ability to be able to sense where bad things have happened. We saw that with the Saint Valentine's day massacre. Yeah. That's true. Last time Monday was here. We had a civil. Yeah. He's the dog expert. Whisper. So yeah, yeah. They do sense. These kind of things and I used to have a dog his name was Buford Mondo remembers in bags. Yeah. Buford was the one. I was gonna talk about though, I would take my finger and point at like a gun, and he would instantly get mad at me for that. He would like try to attack my hand. Then when I do that like what does he know about a gun ever seen a gun? You might fingers really look like a gun to you know. It's like, I don't know. But Doug sense. These things are bad for some reason. I don't know if it's a ghostly thing so much as it's like horses get creeped out by certain corners of their barn or something like that. They get spooked. I think dogs get this way too. As far as the people having these feelings. I I don't know if that's so much ghostly as it is more that they know what took place on that on that property, and as Mondo said the property moved the property like where the post office is is probably one small corner of where the actual murder castle stood and the tunnels underneath. It's not uncommon for these places in Chicago to tunnels underneath a lot of these places. Did they would transport liquor that way a lot of times especially during the probe during prohibition days. That's that was a big thing for Capone loud of the places where all tied up. So I don't know. It's very interesting point though, I wanna say that. But I don't know if I really believe that they're really hearing screams or or whatnot. That's the skeptic in me. What do you think Monday? Okay. So originally the building burned before he was executed. So I believe that was eighteen ninety five not the whole building, though, only hard flow of the building burnt, and then it sat there for almost four or just over forty years. Yeah. Okay. And then it's finally torn down. Yes. So you mentioned like dogs may smell souther sent something. I mean, I don't know if they could smell a building that was burnt and sitting there for forty years. But I mean, it, you know, how many places do you know, that are burned, and you know, usually torn down within a couple years. Yeah. You know, it's not going to be that long. But forty plus years something Stanford is something, you know, I learned something we were on when we did our hands on paranormal event, which you continue to just promoting our YouTube channel again where Chicago doesn't like to. To remember these kind of things, so we tear down all those buildings societas with death or mobsters or anything like that. Yeah. Always gone. We don't want to. Yeah. They they need to go people. You know? It's just you know, that's the spot where it happened. Yeah. So well just continue on a little bit with this. So it's not just people on the outside that will make this claim supposedly employees will also make claims that they feel that sense of dread. And they they have they don't like to go downstairs, obviously. And that they can hear the screams of. Yeah. That. That's what I was being home sort. Yeah. Well ahead mentioned. Yes. I just wanted to make sure I put that. Oh, there usually there's something associated with most post office workers. You know, they think they have a name for it. They say going postal. Yeah. So they don't seem to be very happy to begin with something is bothering them. And they don't like stairs. If you're if you work at the post office, and you worked very hard to get rid of that. They go up and down stairs. All the time. In shorts. So yeah, the basement might not even a line up with what the original basement was. So I I don't know. I I haven't talked to any of these people that work there. So I can't tell you firsthand. What I would. I really feel about that. I mean, I can only tell you that my feeling is that this this just sounds like that they are thinking of the stories that they've heard about the murder castle. So got one more. Okay. About the castle. Okay. Which actually have to give credit to Pat for finding the story actually told me about it. Which is you know, pretty big a you supporting ghosts. We'll say that. Yeah. Okay. So in March, seventh nineteen fourteen the Chicago Tribune reported that Quinlan who you talked about right in the history that you didn't Obam. Sorry. I thought that was and it was he was a former caretaker. Yes. As the castle. I mean, I'm guessing maybe that was something like you said it was empty for a long time. So maybe he was a person that was taking you know, kind of nightwatchman kind of thing. I think they actually wanted to do like tours of the things I think that was original tear it down. Let's make money on it. I think they were going to. And I think that's the reason why they hired him that could be well, so. He died by suicide taking strychnine which sounds awful. Actually, it is the fastest way to kill yourself. Okay. Well, yeah. Let's still awful. Yeah. Sale pat. Ooh, I think that oh what was the? I'm gonna go off other podcast land is used to carry a pill would be is that the really popular NPR podcast. But the guy down south Patia. That's how I'm gonna spoil a podcast, and I don't wanna do that. Okay. So his body was found in his bedroom. With a note that read I couldn't sleep and his relatives claims that he had been haunted for several months was suffering from hallucinations from working at the murder castle. So what do we think you mind, if I go, I oh, sure. So what I really feel is. Yes, I feel he was haunted. Okay. I'm going to say that I feel he was haunted, but I feel that it was not by a ghost. I feel. He was haunted by like, a psychological thing that he was in this spot for so long, and you couldn't sleep because he was burdened with the idea with the emotions of that there were several killings in this place, which as I said, I don't know how many killings actually took place at the murder castle that was designed for that. Because there's only nine confirmed killings in four of them. We've already talked about so. There were a couple on there. But I don't know how many, but I think just the concept of it. The idea that there could have been two hundred and fifty people killed there that probably spooked him and probably haunted his dreams. So I don't believe it's in. I don't believe it's an external believe it to internal haunting of himself. What say you are. I completely agree with that. I have to say, I think that's a good point. Because I mean nowadays, we're looking at it. As far fewer people that were killed by homes, but back then people were reading the worst and believing the worst, you know, from what they were hearing in the papers from hands himself and bright, and yeah, if you could think that something like that took place, and I'm insured that would definitely haunt somebody. And I mean, if you're close to something, I don't know, I guess. I don't know. I guess it seems extreme to me that you would be working at a place, and you might be weirded out. But why would you take the job if you were going to be so weirded out that it would lead you to kill yourself? So I don't know to me I feel like there might be some external factors, but I guess that's up to the listeners to decide three days without sleep once three solid days. I know people say I couldn't sleep for weeks, but they actually do sleep a little bit in that time. I did not sleep for three days, and I will tell you it messes with you I had physical problems at that time like my arms were hurting in my head was hurting. And I couldn't focus I couldn't concentrate. I couldn't even imagine what it would be like to spend months of not being able to get a solid night's sleep. Well, but again, what caused them to not be able to get that sleep. That's I guess what's the up to the listener to decide because we don't we can't go back and really investigate. So either he saw things or heard things that made him not able to sleep or it was what he imagined. So true, I'm gonna I'm gonna go with that. It was an inside thing. It was a psychological thing on his part. But yeah, we can't we can't really look back at him. And and ask him questions now. Yeah. Data. Go onto our next. We have the castle right supposedly haunted. The the next thing. I wanted to bring up is a story that you actually had mentioned which is that supposedly homes. It was did not actually die at his execution. I can't remember it brought that up. So the ideas that supposedly, right? He had paid somebody to switch with somebody else's body. And that he would actually die. We could we stop at that point. So I could argue that before you go on with the second one. No, I was actually just gonna say, yes, I'm sorry. Yeah. I'll wait for that professors because I was gonna ask you because I know the truth, and I, but I love for you guys to be the ones to explain what what is the truth for that. Yeah. So Jeff Mudgene Mudge it his grandson, right? Correct. Or great grandson. Oh, yeah. Or? Yeah. Yeah. He had a great show. What was it? Under the Discovery Channel. I think it was sorry. The Erkin ripper. Yeah. Where so he was trying to link h h Holmes up with Jack the ripper which man I wanted to believe this so bad. I don't know why. But to me that gave me like great satisfaction to think that he was Jack the ripper two for sure. Yeah. But they exhumed his body in twenty seventeen and they actually DNA testing. And it turns out that is h h Holmes. Yeah. Yeah. It is. I mean, they were as history channel, by the way history channel it. Yeah. But yeah, it was a really interesting show history channel if you want to sponsor. Love to have you. Yeah. But there. Yeah. There's no. So we we do have real evidence. They 'cause he's family. Yes. So he was able to court to let the Exuma the body. And then they proved and I do believe that he that Jeff much it wants to do further investigating at the site of the murder castle. Yes. I believe once, but they have not allowed that yet because he wants he's there is is our might be more bodies or other things. Jerry's there. Yes. I'd actually heard that he may have found plans to the original murder castle. Oh, and that's what he's trying to do. They're supposed to be some additional tunnels. Well, yeah. I, you know, it's really interesting. He wrote a book called bloodstains where he actually believes that his great grandfather is is haunting him and is trying to lead his his searches. I believe. Yeah. I don't know, Jeff if you're out there, we'd love to have a show to have you say your point of view. I don't necessarily agree with everything you're saying. But man, I'm so fascinated by it. So I don't know why that brings me such satisfaction that he could have been Jack the ripper while we just had some evidence about Jack the ripper. So well. That's always going to be up for debate. We'll think that was just a guy that happened to be with that girl. Maybe maybe so. Yeah. You wanted to get on with your second point. Well, yeah. I know I just had a fun quote that Holmes had written to a reporter. Yes about himself. And this is something again, this is all under the not true. Like, I don't believe this is true. But I just think it's really interesting. He said I am convinced that since my imprisonment I have changed woefully and gruesomely from what I was formerly in feature and figure my features are assuming pronounce satanical cast my head and face are gradually assuming in along gated shape. I believe fully that I am growing to resemble the double that the similitude is almost complete. Wow. Well, as I said, I think he wanted to sensationalize his story and people were. Already calling him the devil. So yeah, I believe that he was going with that concept. Like, I don't believe he was like where wolfing it into. I've seen teen wolf. And I. How that happened? We would have heard more people talk about it. So I think he just enjoyed he enjoyed conning people and he enjoy sending people on wild goose chases. You know, he did that with the police when he was up during the break Jay talking about that. Yeah. He would suddenly admit to killing somebody in putting your body somewhere. And so, of course, the police were going to go and investigate it. But when they got there, of course, they found nothing. That's why took that just gave him personal Syria. Pillars. They do that. That's their power. They Mike that lot of killers do that matches serial killers, even even people that have only killed once. We'll do that sometime. So. Yeah. So he was enjoying himself. Yeah. In some way, got like satisfaction out of knowing that people were interested in his story. And we're going to maybe more people would show up to his execution than they wanted to see the devil. Hang. Yeah. I think he. Was writing a book while he has while he was imprisoned too. I think that's true. So he would ended up with more money to pay somebody really would have gone through that they would have actually helped him with his transformation into the devil. Putting some makeup on them little shadow. Here was a little inside joke that he had. Yeah. Maybe maybe he's telling him. Hey, guys mind. That's the guy in the cell next to me. You know, what faces a little longer? All right. Okay. So let's move on to this. Oh, this is a related to the execution this particular legend. So there's more legends associated with homes as execution that I have more credibility than the fact that he faked it sure so one just really quick dimension. Is that lightning struck across the sky at the moment. The rope snapped or whatever that went down, which I think is creepy. But I don't know I couldn't find any necessarily proof of that. But I have not seen proof of that either. But I have heard that before. But I really think that that's the media sensation allies back to I really believe that they made this into something that it was it was horrific. I mean, you know, him killing those children, that's horrible. But I really think that they pushed this further than what it what it really was it sold -papers. It did. Yeah. For like five cents a piece or something those heads up now it's like eighteen dollars for the newspaper. Just. Okay. But that's not the legend. I wanted to talk about. So supposedly a bunch of the people associated with homes as execution died mysteriously after his death like a lot of them not long after his death. And other words people claim that he continued to kill even after his death. So the first od death was Dr William k Madden a coroner's physician who had been a big witness at his trial. He died of blood poisoning shortly after homes, some more strange death started happen, the Headcorn her doctor Ashburn, and the trial judge who had sentence home to death were both diagnosed with sudden and previously unknown deadly illnesses next the superintendent of the prison where homes had been incarcerated committed suicide. The reason for has taken his own life was never discovered several weeks after the hanging. One of the priests who prayed with homes before his execution was found dead in the yard behind his church. The coroner ruled the death as your remit poisoning. I don't even know what that is. But according to kidney function, oh, maybe he had been badly beaten and robbed a few days later. Linford byles who had been jury foreman at the homes trial was electrocuted in a bizarre accident involving the electrical wires above his house. Then the father of one of homes as victims was horribly burned in a gas explosion. And the remarkably healthy Pinkerton agent. Frank Geyer suddenly became ill. But thankfully, he pulled through. Actually, he was a Philadelphia detective oak. So he didn't work for Pinkerton. But he hired Pinkerton though. I gotcha. Okay. Not long after this. The office of the claims manager for. The insurance company that Holmes had cheated or one of the one of them. He had cheated a lot of them caught fire and burned everything in the office was destroyed except for a framed copy of homes as arrest warrant and the two portraits and two portraits of the killer, many of those who were already convinced of curse saw this as an ominous warning. So I just wanted to end this with a quote from homes himself. I was born with the devil in me. I could not help the fact that I was a murderer no more than a poet can help the inspiration to sing I was born the evil one standing as my. So as born with the evil one standing as my sponsor beside the bed where I was assured into the world, and he has been with me ever since. Wow. So lots of deaths are I went through. I just wanted to to get through them all but these all happened. These are all people that were related to his getting caught and being executed, and they all died. After that his execution. I mean, I do think it's a really big coincidence. That all these people died around that time. But I think we have to remember to that in the early nineteen hundreds that people died pretty early in life and death was. That was something that. That would happen pretty regularly. Like there wasn't safety codes. There wasn't there wasn't as much concern for for safety. There wasn't much thought for life back then. And I just think that maybe maybe it is just a coincidence. And it isn't really anything ghostly related to that. Like, they didn't die the way that homes killed people like they didn't burn a furnace or they weren't like gassed out. They they died of all things that seem like ways people die. They didn't fall into acid. We know. So yeah, what are your thoughts? Mondo? Well, you it would make a good movie, you know, all the people that died like that. But if you took it like case by case, for instance, like the doctor earlier, you mentioned that a lot of people lot of doctors would make their own concoctions. So he died of blood poisoning. You know, is it possible that he was you know, mixing something that got transferred through his skin. He drinks something by mistake. Most blood poisoning is. Is in is in caused from something from an external source, it something that people are born with a genetic defect or a or predisposition. These kind of things most blood diseases. Are he could have been hemophiliac or something, you know, we don't know. Because. Yeah, there wasn't like I think they might have grouped together. A lot of things that they considered to be blood poisoning. Right. I don't believe they really knew what what we know. Now as far as some of the diseases that you can have of your blood. Gotcha. Well, that kind of changes everything then I mean that was that was my theory theory. Yeah. So now I'm going with I'm flipping. This test to have tried try try to rationalize it. And explain it that way, but there's a lot of deaths. Yeah. I it was I don't really. The coast of homes. I really don't don't have much to defend this just that. I think that it could be a coincidence. And I would like us just to. Think of that for a second that, you know, this could be just all big coincidence. It could be just all random events that would have occurred had homes nap in the picture to. Maybe maybe I mean, it's just it's worth thought the lines were new to they were putting in fresh electrical lines. This is something brand new yet. It can happen. It can. Yeah. All right. So I have one more. Oh, we are finally coming close to the end of this episode closing arguments. Okay. All right. So we talked about the castle being haunted. But as you you reference, this that homes actually owned several other businesses some in Chicago and one of them was a glass bending factory, which I don't even know for sure. But I mean, I don't know bending, but okay, so glass bending factory. Now mysterious Chicago is a tour company owned by Adam seltzer the same guy who wrote the book that you reference a lot for the history. Awesome guy. Yeah. So definitely it will put a link to their soften and everything. So they do tours and they do some that are like haunted tours. But a lot of them are also just tours of Chicago like mysterious Chicago. So like more focused on the the weird Macab history. You know, again, lots of gangsters lots of places to go. And so one of the places that they were take tours for just those McCoy. Bob things was this class factory. Because it was believed to be owned by homes on the north side of Chicago. Now, it's it's it's not there anymore, and we can only kind of guess to where it is. There's no real history or record of exactly the address of this place beheaded in the American rubers. They were at the the place. Oh, well, right. It's that area. Well, they were it was right on the lake where they believed he dumped a lot, right? So they even went diving and stuff. Yeah. But again, they're just there's no official record. So we just have our best guess, right? But anyways, because he would buy places under other people's names too hard to Termine. Yeah. Sure. Sorry. I don't mean to keep interrupt us. Okay. So they there while they were doing tours hit one of his tour guys actually called him. It was like, hey received some weird stuff. So they saw a light. Somewhere. And they couldn't explain the light. But more I think what's interesting is photos. Yes. Yes. So so I think I've sent both of you the photo is I'll try to describe them there's two and again, we'll put put them up on our website. But both of them have a black shadow figure in the photo. I think both of them kind of clearly looks like a person, but the one Mondo you pointed out definitely looks more. Like a person, you know, you can almost see the clothing, and it doesn't look like anything modern. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. There's a face, right? Yes. You can kind of see a face in there. So because but even the other one if you look at it, you can kind of see like legs definitely has a human shape to it. There's a woman standing there. And then they take the photo. And they didn't see this at the time. It wasn't like they were necessarily don't know if they were taking a photo of the shadow, but it just showed up in there. And then the other one again a bunch of people standing there looking at the the spa. Hot. And then they took another picture kind of from a different angle. You can see the same building off to the right, but it's a different spot and another shadow figure is standing there so ghosts. So first before we get into anything. I would like to talk about the glass bending factory interesting tidbit there. There was never any glass. Bending that happened in this factory. So supposedly homes, but this place, and he was trying to get invest- investors into the place. And he said that he developed a new way to Ben glass, and he brought in one of his big furnaces that he was known to have. And they were like, okay. Well, let's see what you can do and days went by. And he didn't bend any glass. And then one day he's like, well, it, you know, it's just gonna take a while. So he had everybody leave and the next morning when they came in. There was a piece of bent glass in there. But there was no ashes there was no nothing to say that there was actually a fire. So he probably put that piece of bent glass in there. Just to throw them off thinking that he would be clever AJ on this episode. All. He's a glass blower, a friend who studying this right now. Yes at Betty could explain glass bending. Yeah. I'm sure he can so. Yeah. So this is a very interesting story, and those pictures look very convincing to me. Although my thing about pictures is that I I wasn't there. I didn't see it. And if if I don't see it with my naked. I I have a difficult time believing that these really happened. If it's just infra tiger Affi could be something that was done by the camera when you took the picture, can it be another picture superimposing on that Mehan? Neom Ondo of went back and forth about one picture that his friend sent him that I really. I I mean, it looks really convincing. But I don't I just to me that's not really evidence to support it. So doesn't change my mind in that regard. But those pictures do look very convincing, and maybe we should reach out to Adam. And see if we could use those pictures on our site. Okay. We'll put a link at least to his. Yes. Absolutely it. Yeah. I would like you guys to see it before you go vote and determine if you think it's real, well, what do you think they look realty? I think they definitely look real. I mean, you know, when you can look at something like that and see the detail will then that kind of makes you real Ed realized that you're not just looking at a smear on a camera. But you're looking at something that, you know, I guess is unexplained. But I also noticed the appearance of the clothes, you know, they looked kind of dated, you know, look Saguy. Like a factory worker or something like someone that did a lot of manual labor. Like jumpsuit, kind of somebody that did that. So yeah, you're believing that this possibly could actually have been somebody that would have been doing manual labor at class factory. I'm just saying having mind on the show. Them just saying that I I have not done any kind. I I don't have the actual images. So I can't do any investigating as far as that goes to see if there was any photo shopping done. I don't believe that. There was it doesn't look like it doesn't look like something that someone would post on their website. You know, but I'm just saying could be superimposed from another picture. It could be reflection of something else. I don't wanna be too skeptical about it. I want you guys to decide I just wanna say that this kind of evidence doesn't really change my mind. I find it. Interesting. Find fascinating I like looking at it. But I don't it doesn't really make me a believer. I don't go to go to sleep scared. I would be happy to sleep in any building that they say is haunted because I just don't believe that. We're totally doing that at some point. Yeah. In fact, I think you were talking about something about Holloway lean. Oh, I did want to mention that the last few. Two years. It seems that there's been a lot of h h Holmes themed haunted houses all around and the congress hotel, which those of us in Chicago. No, it's Zoltan Chicago known for being known for being haunted. We will do an episode on the conquer. So tile of that. Stephen King story about the hotel room is based on the hotel room, lots of stuff, but they actually even did. 'cause there's supposedly a story that people see homes as ghost at the congress. Oh, tile, whatever that we don't have time for it. But they even had like a haunted. Stay like stay there for a in honor of homes. So anyways, if you're if you like the story when it comes hollowing time take a look around. There's a good chance somewhere nearby, you there might be a a cool activity or thing you could do that space on homes and his murder castle. Yeah. I would like to say to round Halloween time. There's a really good haunted house in Aurora called the basement the dead. It's one of the best. Yeah. I used to work there. And they those people are just amazing, and they put on a really good show really show that changes every year. They do not just do the same on it house every year like its new like you can go every year because it's different. And also I'd like to give a shout out to haunted, Illinois dot com for showing us a lot of support on social media. They are amazing. I go there. I go to their site. All the time. I can't wait to for the Halloween season to start exploring of. Yeah. I was just gonna mention being that we're in the Chicago area. And you know, you're on the skeptical side with the photographs, you know, we ought to take a trip down there and take some photos or selves the base debt. No actually to the to the spending. Yeah, we should go. There all of us. We should get a group of us that take a bunch of different pictures and just look through. So you have different this way. We were all there have you ever been by that area? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. There's actually it's long Chicago river, and it's right where city front fountain is that is the location. Okay. For those. It's just been everywhere. Remembers every detail of every place he's ever been to. Like a map of Chicago. But here's the secret. Okay. If there's a place that's good to eat. That's like right around the corner. I will remember. That's good to eat around there. Dick's last resort half a block away is at the old Vic's or the new one. It's the one at the house of blues the one that the old one that I've been there too. Yeah. That's where you can get a boat tour, and you could take a boat taxi to believe and get chewed out at the same time. No. There's a story. There's a reason that they're called Dick's. Oh, yeah. Yeah. They kind of live up to their name waiter, Stu. Okay. The staff being that they seem like Richard just really quick. I want to go back to hide it a little I absolutely use that website like not just getting paid by them anything like I really do use that website. And when it comes time for Halloween, and you're looking for things to do or even not Halloween time because we all love Halloween. They are great place to go. Okay. So let's get into our closing arguments pushing two hours on this episode. It's son. So what we do is. This closing argument gives you gives each person one minute to debate to do a final debate. We are not allowed to to bait. Anything that they say during that one minute like a final stand. It's a final stand its final word yet. And we time each other. So I'm going to get my timer. All set up and ready for Rebecca. I got mine ready. Okay. We'll give me one. Yeah. This is going to be good. I remember the poll is going to be on Facebook. And this time we'll have a third option since we have Mondo or ready. Are you ready? I'm ready. Okay. Let's go. All right. So I did not realize how many go stores were associated with homes until I started to do the research. And fact, people had told me I wouldn't find anything. So I was shocked at how much I did find. And but then again, I think I shouldn't be shocked because he was an evil person. Who did a lot of horrible things killed a lot horrible people or killed hope. Kills people who are ably. And that as we know is what causes ghosts right causes that energy when you die this horrible death before your time. And you don't have that time or that ability to express your just the your emotions with it. You have a tendency to stick around. And so it just it doesn't make it's it makes sense to me that there would be screams and haunting 's and bad feelings, and I think there's just too many deaths. Oh, man. Well, too many deaths associated with the curse after him. That just I just think it's real. Mondo? You ready to go next? I am it's just a little warm in here. So I'm just going to unbutton my shirt. But it's okay. So last time I had assured on that spoke about my skepticism so Mondo wearing a ghost shirt and until it's time for ghost adventure. Shirt. Sages ghost like the Banda bent. Oh, the band just a music fan. My brother gave me might. So. All right. You ready to go Mondo? All right. Let's get it started right now. Okay. So we all know h h Holmes was an evil, dude. I mean, there's no doubt. I mean, he was you know. Guilty of a lot of things he loved the scam people, but more than anything. I mean, he killed people. He killed a lot of people. And I mean, yes, we're thinking that the numbers are less than what you know. We originally thought or what was reported in the news. But either way there are a lot of people that are gone. They're probably are more than nine victims. And I know I came across as a skeptic in this episode because you know, I kind of looked at things like the dogs, and you know, the burning building that had been there. But if there is any place that could or should be haunted. It is the probably the site of murder castle because if so many bad things place there, and so many people died in such horrible manners. I mean that should be the place. All right. You made it right at the one minute Maher who right? So that time me, let's do it. And so I don't really know what I'm gonna say in this one minute. I didn't prepare closing argument this time because I wanted to see what the episode took me. And what I'm thinking is that if there was going to be a place that was going to be haunted. Definitely this would be some place that I would suspect although I have not seen any physical evidence that supports this to me pictures are great. But I don't I don't often believe him. That's just me. I don't mind you believing. I want you to believe I want you to have fun with this. And I want you to take it to wherever whatever level you want to be at. But for me, I'm still gonna remain hashtag team skeptic. Are you got thirteen seconds? Hash tag team skeptic is the best place to be. The best food. We have the best wine watch game of thrones pay perfect timing. All right. All right. So I think that is our episodes. It is going to be a long one guy. I think this is going to be like an hour and a half. So after I get done with some of the editing taking out all your great points. So I wanna thank everyone so much for listening to go sleep. We have a lot plan for the next few months. Please subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts to be updated. And we do have an Email list that we don't talk about very often. But it's really nice. You send out a super nice Email just once every two weeks? Just when the episode comes out. I really just focus on the. Hey this episode. Here's some of the things you're going to hear. And then I will also tell you what the next episode is. And it's a sneak preview. Yeah. So by being on the Email list, you are the first people to hear what the next episodes going to be about. That's a reason to do it. We don't announce right away on Facebook. Because we'd like people to take some time to actually, you know, absorb the episode that we didn't appreciate it for what it was. So our next episode will be on Waverly hills. Sanatorium Waverly hills. Nls. That's not where you want to be mine does new hits on. And it will come out on may twenty ninth. So we're having three episodes this month possibly afford. If you guys want me to do that special special edition of ghostly that interfere with our episode schedule. But it'll be just on h h Holmes. It was suggested by a long that the Waverly hills episode is been suggested by longtime friend and current listener, Mike Morrissey, and we can't wait to talk about it. We did do an interview with him. And you some of that interview in our shadow people episode that was way back in. What was it six something? We're fifteen now we've had this in the can for a long time. We just couldn't fit it in. We've got so many go stories wanna tell you. I know, but we love it when listener Sunday suggestions, and we really do want to try to fit in as many as we can. And this is one of them so excited so Mondo you have anything going on that you'd like to talk about. Sure. I also am a musician. And I good news issue. Thank you. I've been involved in a few different projects dry roasted peanuts. Yeah. Yeah. We're gonna tour with the red hot chili peppers. Yeah. Isn't that the band? You wanna see with them? Why do we call and drivers to peanuts draw PROST it? There is a movie is stupid. But okay, anyways. So anyway, I'm currently working on completing Anabel than I'm gonna release on. I tunes right now. I only have a single tonight tunes under the band life bomb and later this year, I plan on releasing full level. So what kind of music is this kind of music that you wanna listen to you know, or that belongs in a scary movie or stuff to you know, it's mainly instrumental stuff. It's you know, a lot of keyboard in electron IQ. But just, you know, something to set the mood, you know, like right before you get ready to listen to ghostly, and you know, even feature one of your songs in one of our episodes. Yeah. And we'll definitely drop link when it comes out. Do you have any idea timeframe one? It's coming. Out probably the under summer. Right. You know? Right. The boys of summer are done. Yep. That's the perfect time to release it. Yeah. It is definitely. All right, guys. So I wanna I wanna thank you for coming on the show. I want to thank you guys for having me. And I love this show. I love the point of view that you guys the guys and arguments, you guys present the story the history of, you know, just keep it up. I love it. And I know Mike Morrissey is a great storyteller when it comes to that stuff. He is. And is Jay voice to I don't know if you knew this. But yeah, you kinda does. Hey, guys too. And he's awesome. Yeah. And he's to Mike Morrissey. He actually travels to allow these places. Yes, he does. He he goes there. I mean, you know, just to get the vibe at a place, and you know, and he was a skeptic to at one time was and then. Yeah. Waverly hills converted him. I think now I'm intrigued. So I want this to convert me. Yes. You know, what you? You just need to do the legwork you need to get out there and go to these places, and I think, you know, a year's time from now we might be talking to a completely different Pat Harrington he might be defined skeptic. It is our play. We do want to do some more travelling. We're actually going to our Landau. And if you week, so I'm if anyone has any ghost things, we could see see this haunts. Yeah. Exactly what I'm going to try to look some of those up. So we saying that we will we've been working on this. Well, guys, thank you so much for listening, and we will see you next time. Remember to stay go sleep. Hi.