Interview with Wayne Motts, CEO of the National Civil War Museum


Welcome to the tales of American history. The witnessing him found -ation podcast. Educating Americans to you understand the history of their country and of other countries so that they will appreciate the value of America's unique free institutions. Take a journey back through time with Ken masterson Brown and his guests and let their storytelling transport you to the most compelling pulling moments in American history become an American hero who participates in our mission by joining us at witnessing history dot org org download our documentaries and free teacher education materials that conform to grade level education standards at PBS learning learning dot. Org follow witnessing history on facebook twitter and linked in. I'd like to welcome Wayne. MOTT's what's from place. We're both very familiar with Gettysburg Pennsylvania to our podcast. Here Wayne Welcome. Well thank you. Can't it's real honor to be here with you Wayne Besides being a thirty year veteran licensed guide on the Gettysburg Org. Battlefield is the chief executive officer of the National Civil War Museum in Harrisburg Pennsylvania. And and Wayne tell our viewers a little bit about that. Museum One what if you if you walked into to it from the front door. What kind of things would you see? What kind of things does it house and let them know about about it well? Thanks can't very much watch so the National Civil War Museum headquartered in the state capital Pennsylvania in Harrisburg. It's thirty nine miles north of the Gettysburg. Battlefield it is a tremendous facility. Thirty sixty five thousand square feet of space. It's one of the largest museums in the country for this John. Laura and the museum the houses I think one of the finest collections of civil war artifacts anywhere in the world so it has about four thousand three dimensional objects in about twenty one thousand thousand archival objects items including paper photographs and we do the war from the beginning to the end. Start to finish others about thirty thousand square feet of educational space inside the museum. So when you walk in the door you see. A house. Divided the causes of the American American civil war. You go right in to the slavery issue you go into the first shot into the training. The army's into all the campaigns and then it has has some unusual things which I'm really proud of and I think those Don't get a lot of attention anywhere else. So the these would be the medical aspects of the civil war women. The civil war prisoners immigrants African American troops music. We've got a whole display on music or so. When you come visit this museum you get the entire civil war in a nutshell in really gives you the great context when you go visit Gettysburg the wilderness or any of these other places the context is is it? Nut need let me ask you. Are there any Special areas of that museum to you like the most. Yeah well it's it's So first of all. I'm a person that all my life have been interested in civil war. My family started military museum. I can I tell everyone when I took things to show and tell the Homeland Security would jail you today good jail I think. Luckily the principal senators Wayne. Forget about it. That's so all my life. I've been interested in artifacts and objects. My father had a set of. Diaries a belong to a civil war soldier killed four wagner ignorant and to me when I was a child. They're still in my family's possession. They've been in their possession for over sixty years so for me. I was Willie Wonka. He ended the keys to the chocolate factory. That's the best way I can describe it so every area the museum I enjoy and I like I especially like a The Arms Arman weapons and dress of the civil war soldiers. Because I think people often don't understand. What does the uniform look like? What do they disorders exterior? I like that. I like Lincoln Gallery of Special Gallery related to Abraham Lincoln in one of the things most proud of is when you come into that museum and the Museum Zim was constructed in two thousand opened up in two thousand eight hundred eighty. It's been around for eighteen years. You are addressed right up front with the causes of the civil war. Four and the slavery issue and I think that the national or museum may have been one of the first museums to put that right at the four stories of known for a century entry. In half you put it in the forefront to the education of the civil war. Yeah I'm pretty proud of of the scholars of course in people adviser I just on that content. Sure but I'm proud of how that's presented in the variety of its percent in the depth of it the comprehensiveness. Oh Wow wow well let me ask you. Are there special relics. You like yeah. I have many favourite. Tell us about a few so one of my favorites which I just did a little facebook video on ourselves for the museum. We have a diary in the museum that was carried by a soldier in the Twelfth Mississippi Regiment killed at the mule shoe so this die where he belonged to a fossil venue possibly mule shoe and he was killed killed may twelfth. I believe and diary was taken by a Union soldier so it's written in by confederates federate solter and in the second part of it he started a diary may nineteenth this union soldier dead and he was captured and ended up in the Andersonville and he survived his captivity. Giving but this is written by soldiers of both sides is a civil war and survived and tells the story about it us. That's one of my favorite piece is a one year diary. It is not even quite a year. It's a one diary and it starts in eighteen sixty four. Her has an accounting in the front of it is and I know you and your career seeing many of these diaries. You suppose a soldier who owes money or what precisely and and so that in the beginning pinpoint of its in pencil in so we've tried to track down some of that but that has to be i. I liked the things that are what I would say are the more common so we have. US grants spoon. For example. We have a Bible carry by Robert e Lee at the Chimera similar to swords owned by Jeb Stuart in the war but the things I like are the common sings a My friend Gary Edelman who works the American battlefield trump. He came out to visit me and he was most impressed. We have a shovel with the leather. SCABBARD shovel goes in and he said Wayne. I've seen thousands of photographs in those but I've never seen one in the flat and but it so in the museum collection we have an archival document which I have never never seen. I've only read about it a slave policy for Matt and a life and ring for a slave in South Carolina. Only read these things. I've never saw never seen one in I do. I came to the museum to letters from prisoners where postage was paid by both sides union and confederate stamps. which had to do in the civil war had only he ever read about it? I've never seen it. I've never seen anything all the things that are housed in a museum in some cases You you read about them but you don't actually see the yeah. I used to collect diaries Because one I like to use them in my writing sure particularly diaries that you know have never been used before in a publication. Remember one That I had I picked up years ago and I think I got it at Gettysburg at one of those great shows. You know in the summertime talk and it was a diary that was carried by a soldier in the one hundred twenty eight th Pennsylvania infantry at Antietam and he he fills it in all the way up until the morning of September seventeen and from there on an. It's an ink from there on. It's in pencil filled in by Georgian. Who took it out of his the Pennsylvanians pockets? He was killed and seeing the same story. Same Story Yeah and That was just a gem to me for so long and I used it it in some publications. But I used to love to do that. You'd find these and I had one from the sixty second. Pennsylvania remember and this is a he was a captain. His name was guard Gardner and I've been using it in my book because it's some of the most graphic descriptions of the fighting in the wheatfield. You could imagine so some of these just amazing just amazing We'll Continue besides the diaries. You have any other ephemera alike letters soldier letters. Many of those things in the archives in our job right now to try to get cataloged and get them transcribed using volunteer labour. Most people that come to the national civil war museum in Harrisburg today most of them come to see the museum. Ninety nine nine percent. Sure you can call and say hey do you have this specific thing. I'm working on that but we're hoping to get some finding AIDS and get. There's some of these things so you know if your scholar to come research into suborn museums right. We have a phenomenal archival collection. Manuscript Archives Diaries letters and correspondence from civil war anniversary universally untouched. They've not been used by anyone not because we don't want it to be used but we want to get them in in a catalog in such a way that people know they're they're they know they're finding aid. Yeah that's That's there so we have a lot of that material kid and almost all of it is unpublished. Almost all of its narrow. That's incredible arrest stuff. I Love I love that stuff. Tell me about uniforms. You have any What kind of beautiful? I know you have. What kind of uniforms do you have on display? Well we have From coach to Sacco's basic uniforms and the civil war we have some which are unidentified who wore them during the more. But we also have some famous coats and we have one that belong to Western theater. General George Meinie. He's buried in Nashville Tennessee. Sherman sure we have general maintenance code and we have another coat that belonged to General George Shearer screen. It's probably Armas frockcoat that we had really in the collection and it's wonderful shape wonderful shape code ridder general and wow wow uniform wives. That's that's really nice. We just recently got donations from uniform pieces. For one hundred fourteen Pennsylvania which was a masseuse outfit unit Zehr for Charles. Hd College options go. And when I'm trying to do or what we've been trying to do is we have all these things but unless we get 'em on display. We don't have a lot of time to do research there's infinite amounts what's of research job security. Let's go to the archives service records in pensions. Because there's a lot of personal stories we can get if we're able to get the research said that it's like the National Archives you've got thousands of these things and you have you know time is required. A Course to get the Internet has made it easier easier with newspaper articles and getting service records and things of that nature uniform of George Green. Is it a brigadier generals. It is it's brigadier generals coat it. I think it's the same one we believe. It's the one that he wore. These actions like Gettysburg We have a photograph of that taken from the National Archives. And I believe is the code. We have it. Has the velveteen cost shirts. Actually two we sure that we have breath. Of course his his actions at Gettysburg are nothing short of heroic Meade had to strip everything away from the Baltimore. Pike the Line of Supply and communication to the army and George in his one lone brigade. We're left and the guy spread them all out to try to occupy occupy the same ground the whole dag on corded and then got hit by four different confederate brigades and called in reinforcements silence from elsewhere. One by one these regiments come in. But he held him back. Just a remarkable remarkable thing. Well tell me what about confederate hedrick. Uniform pieces well General Maini's okay. Jones has well known that we have we have some some items of belong to General Pickett including sleeve that he was wearing a gaines mill when he was wounded We have a staff officers coat dotted disease. He's buried Hollywood cemetery and Richmond. So we've got a couple of couple of uniform. Confederate pieces are rare. As you know dinner dinner dinner there but we also have some interesting You know just regular uniform pieces and you often don't get to see the different shades. Agent colors of the uniform different types of fabric that remains especially for the confederates different shades and colors in both armies were there also and I'm the the chief executive officer I think in sometimes I'd rather be the curator but sometimes I have to go down and ask Brett Kelly or curator some of these questions because he certainly knows the collection at much better than I do. I've been there seven years and which meant everyday looking at that if I if I if I could. He's been curator religious before for the museum opens knows every piece really had and we work on high. But it just is fascinating when you I've seen the the the the the Film clip of you. And I think Gerry Edelman with Alonzo. Cushing's tell us about that so we have a bill in the national civil war museum Model Eighteen fifty one buckle and regular Brown bill With the name age. H cushing Alonzo cushing's belt and there's a photograph taken after the battle of not them in September of eighteen sixty two which you're aware of and if you download Dafur Library Very Congress in detail you can clearly see. He's got this eagle buckle. He's got a regular bill and I think it very well could be the ORG. Is that the one taken in the Eastwood's with the artillery officers. That's correct and you would know much more about this than I do. But there's one man on the porch which is a different one and I'm sure he's wearing a seat belt there when you look at that it looks a little different Center Staff Right Right which staff staff. There's one taken out in the field the one you're describing and if you enlarge that photograph you've got basically our belt about which is really neat and he's got his name inscribed on it and we actually Put that on loan to the National Park Service a year or two ago when they had a display display of Alonzo cushing's Medal of honor which President Obama awarded in two thousand fourteen. And ask us whether we would the parking they if we would loan the bill they he put it next to. The metal spider standing metal is going to be donated to get us for National Military Park. If they haven't already done so Jessica Lauren who is the one who received the medal okay. is a good friend and she told me that it When it was awarded there were members of the family? You can imagine this that began to kind of scrap over who would get it. Yeah and She said you know. Can't I thought about it once twice and I said Hell. It belongs at Gettysburg so she just game that's nice and was need. Is that That metal is Six months of the year is also displayed at West Point. Okay which is where he's buried a graduate class at June Sixteenth Mon- and I had a dear friend General Richard Treasury. He's a lieutenant general retired. He's now gone. I think but General Treasury was very interested in seeing Alonzo get awarded did that metal and he was on the war decorations board. Oh Wow okay. And he kept telling me he says can't and that metal is is finally awarded. It really should go to west point. And he says and they could put it over the entrance to the inner entrance to the library every cadet sees that and he almost got his wish Jessica gave it to Gettysburg and Gettysburg loans it to West Point for a period of time and then it comes back act so you get so you get the best of both protected. I mean any one of the families anywhere would have one member who just wants to get something off of it. You know what I mean right so here it is. It's just fabulous. She's a wonderful lady found a receptive person for me as a museum person. We're thinking control things one. It should be preserved into it. Shouldn't be preserved just a nobody has a chance of CNN ought to be interpreted viewed people ought to be able to see it right and unfortunately personally a lot of these family collections. You know what happened by disasters divorces. There's all these things happen in stuff goes to the four wins so it's wonderful that that stuff gets preserved should be an interpreted these play absolately and of course for those listeners. Here Alonzo cushing commanded a As a first lieutenant battery a of the fourth United States artillery Six three and Jordan's rifles at the angle at Gettysburg. It was the focal point of the Pickett's divisions attack against the Second Corps and. He was multiple times wounded before he who was killed in that and I'll tell you a story about when I was working on cushing's life I contacted contacted the A Little County Historical Society and Chautauqua County New York where he grew up and in Westfield New York and they told me you know. We don't know anything we have here about him in particular There are a few things in the public library in Fredonia but we do have an old trunk upstairs. That was a cushing trunk. And you're welcome to come up and take a look. Well I'll tell you wayne nine. That was a revelation to me on Friday afternoon around four o'clock in the afternoon so you're so you're in your core clock early in the morning. I'm getting a car in New York. I got to the to the old house where all this was and let it'd be in and I went up in the attic and from the time that place open like at eight thirty PM until three all I found. Were just bits and pieces. I was counting getting discouraged and I I kept digging and finally at the very bottom of that trunk was a great big envelope like a business is enveloped used to see an early and this business was stuffed and in Pencil on the outside at red. Alonzo's letters Oh torch and there were twenty six letters written by Alonzo cushing from the time. He was a second classmate at West Point all the way up until one month before he was killed and it just I. That's what I said. Hell I could write about him now. I can make him talk. So He's is near and dear to my heart but I've never seen that belt in the flesh and I put it on display. This might sometimes. Sometimes it's an original one time we didn't loan down to obviously with the items that we have at the national or museum were very causing the fact that some of these are rare especially the textiles. Some of these cannot be on display people often when they don't need things to museums they wonder how come my thing can't be on display all the time. Why can't just be out there all the time? We have to remind everyone that these items have a shelf life so to speak and We WanNa make sure we rotate H.. Specially these items that may be sensitive to non in and out back and four so we put some of these things on temporary exhibit and we bring them back into storage temperature humidity controlled trolled storage and so that for generations. We can enjoy these things and not just for one generation of doing it. But sometimes it's hard for people to gather data I to understand that and we just it's our job to try to educate folks about The interpretation of those items we also have to preserve them so they can be interpreted be around One thing I know collectors and people love to look at our presentation officers source staff staff feels sort of line officers swords. What what notable ones you have in your collection? Well we have. One belong took Brigadier General. Frank Wheaton Wheaton was commander in six core absolute. This sword was actually given to him when he was colonel the Second Rhode Island and was given him by his father. Wow now it's a beautiful presentation sword. We have another one that belonged to. I think it's Henry Landis Landis was the brother-in-law of John Bolton Reynolds and we have a presentation sword that he you'd was given to him for the action at which point and right outside. The Museum Museum is when the confederates came all the way up to across the river and he had an artillery battery from Lancaster Pennsylvania where he was from Philadelphia where he was from Philadelphia. Yeah and This is inscribed with the battles and into him and he's the brother in law. John Foot row isn't that cool. That's that's that's a nice presentation that we that we have we. Have you know some others. I can't take the names off top my head but we have others. That are part of that. I was on the Gettysburg Foundation Board or does some years ago. I got a call from a relic dealer in Gettysburg. Who We all know And he said I've got something here. I WANNA show you and I walked over there to his. The horse soldiers then went inside and up on the second floor he took me to the a a little vault. The open the vault door and outcomes this Chesser Kepi with a wreath embroidered with us and not to star two stars and then came out. A lot of photography of very young officer and then came out in discussion postwar Scotch and with all the battle honours. Whoever this person was and it had John Fulton Reynolds and I went? Oh My heavens you know and it was just a ton of stuff and I said this is all John Reynolds things they go. Yeah Yeah I said where does it come from. He says the family and so Do you think the Gettysburg National Military Park would like that and I said I I would certainly a hell hope so and so we managed to get that to happen but Yeah great stuff I as a as an old relic guy from way back like I know you've been I love looking at that. I love to go to museums. I love to see it all all and I'm really glad we're here to share the national civil war museum in Harrisburg with people here. Who Listen to this podcast? So I thank you for that and thank you for coming here. I appreciate it. Can't we wanna tell stories or a better way to to learn about the civil war then tell story that's right and and make those personal for people and so at the civil war museum were using these objects to tell a larger story shoe. The is a real person right and for me at At the museum somebody as a battlefield guide and interpreter many years as a kid interested news. There's no better way to get people interested until story. Yeah no I agree. Great and and that's the best way to do it. It is the best way to do it. We you know you're also the CO author of a book called Pickett's charge at Gettysburg Iceberg a guide to the most famous attack in American history. You and Jim Hessler have put this book together and I gotTa tell you it is perfectly beautiful book. It's gorgeous published and Ted Savvas out there in California does gorgeous work is maps or spectacular. Ed is very easy to understand where you are in this book. Because of the way it's laid out in the maps tell me what What are you who it in publishing this guide What are you trying to to to get to to people all who go out on the field and let them know precisely where events took place the whole motive behind this? Yes so I've thanks very much cancer first of all let me just say I gotta give Kudos to to to the CO author. James Hausler my friend. Many years about four guide. Jim Is what I call all closure just piddle around to stop and I think we would have still been waiting on it if it if it had been to to get to get to shop shotgun so we worked very well together. I would work with him on any project. It just did some nice suiting together there. And of course we've got shots did a tremendous job as you said in the land in Steve Stanley. Doing the thirty one maps because this book is a guide you need to have some spectacular maps ought ought to do it and of course Steve have been a matmaker for American battlefield. Trust for many years so these are first rate in. The book is in color which I really like because you can lay some and things out what we really wanted to do with. This work is a couple of things. We wanted to reach multiple audiences so I think it would be unusual first of all to have a hardback book as a as a field guide. I'd but we really wanted you to be able to take this thing out onto the battlefield. If you wanted to do that but we also wanted to make sure that if you were at home you could follow wit and understand it right the maps and everything that are in there and we also did which I'm really proud of Clo- there's things called out. I guess I would say just little sidebar. I Su out the book that are stories each one of those sort of standalone right on top of the of the narrative it. We were just pleased to be able to to publish the first really ever guide to Pickett's charge and no one else's ever done now no one has and and and it's it's it's it's If I dare say the most walk part of the battlefield I still. I think it is even more really than little round. Top people walking that every day the assault attack and seeing the union defense. We have four tours in here here so we don't forget that the Yankees had something to do with it as it said right. Well you know what's what's needed and you go through each of those tours and you know it begins on the confederate side with the massing all those field batteries Preparing to open fire on the union positions. And what you got one hundred seventy eight hundred seventy five guns that they've brought out there to To Open Fire and I remember Henry Slocum says he had never ever seen anything like it before and his entire life. Now or since right and What you lay out you and JIM lay out All the batteries where they are by name on the maps and in the text and So to begin with people can literally walk that line along long it really in front of Seminary Ridge all the way down to the peach orchard laying out all those all all those guns and we had many many a day if you could recorded conversations. They wouldn't be pretty about where to lay out all those. This is a Mike. Hikers study it is but we took great pride in getting the primary sources as best. We could for the confederate batteries. It's quite difficult. Because the batchelder maps basically officer would come and tell John batchelder. Hey this is so cases the plaques or reverse of what you so many others are even the armament for a couple couple of batteries Well what is it we. We took great pains in looking at many many primary sources to get to where we're at in the order of battle and what which ones actually fired which I didn't and I think some people would say well that's a little too much. We just wanted to be as comprehensive as we could. May you wanted it to be a go to source. We wanted you to be able to pick it up and say this is what these guys think but more importantly the default notes that basically say this is where they got it. I I have to take our word for it. Take somebody else's right for it. But then as you as you move along you go to the attack of each elements of this assault force horse pedigrees Dorsey penders Isaac Trimble and then and then pay an Pickett's and you pick up each one of them so there are tour stops so that you see each one how far they get And and then of course into the into the defenses the union defenses and You follow the North Carolinians. What farthest to the front at Gettysburg was the motto? Had it on their license plates. Royer actually got the furthest did day. We know what we know what. The Fifty Fifth Davis said. Probably the eleven Mississippi when you look at it now to me. It's a tremendous fi I can't even imagine I read for years description to that of that fire one and I just can't imagine a person dare the air. The next up I think is going to be. The last one is going to be awful and and it's It's just For me it's a human aspect which is important we forget when we're moving these little numbers around or remove a little pins around that these people just like you you and I right and getting blown up facing facing nat just tremendous and so I like also so what we did. Which I'm very proud of? Is We put some human interest stories in there and we called some of them out call outs and we really tried to personalise. Some of those places we One of my favorites and you stop me if I'm going too much Not Ken but is is a soldier in cushing's battery now and we actually got a photograph from the dealer friend of mine of a soldier in cushing's battery and so fast and Susan. I remember when we were doing research. Facet spirit in the National Cemetery. And according to the records he died on the thirteenth to July. We'll I've found a newspaper Article Michael Researching in one thousand nine hundred eighty six with being cleaned people singing so fast and he died in California. And Facet please stand up go. We don't know here's a grave cemetery with this man yet. There's an entire newspaper article where he said he lost his papers. He couldn't prove who he was. And and so there's more research to be done on. That and here is an unpublished photograph. Until we got a hold of this of this older. Thanks to our our friend who you had a dealer of a young young man. In cushing's battery reportedly mortally wounded Gettysburg buried in the National Cemetery. Well guess what. There's a body there but the name is on it but I'm not sure facet. Wow it's just incredible you know to me other than Frederick Fu Ghur and And Lieutenant Milne. I don't know the photograph of anybody else. Out of that battery Never come across would have been the person to see when you're doing regular it's a lot more difficult to do some really is I mean. This is so so so much less on them. Let's close is this here but by asking this all the Times I've taken people out on on the field of the Pickett Pettigrew attack attack. The question always comes up. was that this just suicidal. Why would Lee have ordered this? What's your answer? Well my answer to that is the next logical step for the battle so we take a look at what's going on. In the battle first aid confederates push push the union army north and west the town. Drive them South Leah Tax on the second day he still has momentum to make these assaults on July. Third I I. I don't think it's going to be a question whether he's GonNa make an attack. He's not going to hand over this initiative in the momentum over to the Union army. He's not GonNa do that. Question is where in in how it is planned be always remind everyone Pickett's charge as you and I know it is not what Robert e Lee went to bed with on the night of July Shaq. He wanted to coordinate it with with with picking and with yours men on the north end of the battlefield. He didn't get that because the Union army is going to attack over at the north end of the battlefield so he has to settle for our plan B. and plan B. is out it is talked about he and we also should know that unless you walk that really can't understand the attack because you're not under fire the talk your relations that ground swell tactic swell and he wanted the artillery to be a major participant in that and twice in Robert Lee's own words in his official reports one in July eighteen sixty three one in January sixty four robbery. We had two reports alligators twice. He says it's the failure the artillery is the reason why take charge and take my word for it. You can take robbery lease word for it and He ordered that because it was the next logical thing to do and he wanted it properly prepared and I think the planning of it was in order for it to be successful. Everything had to go right absolutely and of course unfortunately for him. Fortunately for the Union army everything did not go right. Thomas Osborne he's Eleventh Union are are he said look seen many attacks in civil war. None of them had a hope a succeeding seating. He said I was at Kennesaw Mountain. I saw it but he said pick a short did he said I think it did. And I was on the Union artillery. been properly done. They weren't yeah so I think you just have to take yourself out of the twenty first century mindset and put yourself back into the eighteen sixty often when I'm out out there talking with people always liked to remind them that on the second day the the attacks lead launched against the union left were so ferocious and fought over so viciously viciously that he could tell by just looking at the casualties on the battlefield and those prisoners of war being taken to career that he had virtually demolished the Third Corps Union Third Corey. He had virtually actually not as much as a third but he had really mangled the Fifth Corps because he could tell I mean he these reports which are coming back. These guys were from the Fifth Corps here from the third His his people were telling him and that He had mangled at least one division of Second Corps and he knew as well that after the fighting on July one that he had taken out much of the I corps and much of the eleven yet so when you start adding up you start and ending up. Yeah exactly and I mean he can look at the wreck back on the battlefield after finding July second and so like you is it is the next logical step for him and borne to the fact that he believed. I'm convinced that he had wrecked union army so badly that have he made a concerted effort against the center. He break it. Yeah well I tell everybody. And he's got a nice model he can look to and he doesn't have to look but only forty eight hours go to the attack the seminary where he made a frontal assault against heavily fortified position I stack with artillery. The confederates came right through there and punched a hole all right in that defensive work. It's not quite as wide as Pickett's charge but PICKETT's charge has more on the ground more protection his troops they completely leap drove that wedge right in that union line right off and he's only got a look forty eight hours to see it. Yeah precisely I mean look ahead he could see the swailes and you could get the entire Dagang Division in those whales right and so now they're Satan. There's safer from enemy fire. And they're only GONNA get. Shell burst on them but in a direct fire. So there's a lot to be said for it given all that and which is what he would have seen right and I think we've got. Ah Throw a quick quick kudos out to general meat. Because let's remember the federals. Put up a very staunch defense. They had to prepare defense there And how how do we know it was good because they ended up getting what I want it. They want exact. So we've got to. We have to give credit to the union defenders. Put up tenacious. Defense finch there for on on July third to match the bravery confederates coming across that field exactly and the effective the effective use of field artillery on the Union side too. I mean they were. They were striking them with explosive. Shells way out right here in the fields and yeah it's a it's a a fascinating thing. Wayne look at my friend. It's been a treat having you here and I wish you all the luck in your. I love your book. Well thanks and I want you to tell Jim how much I love it too. and With respect to the museum I hope all our view all our listeners Get Get up to Harrisburg Pennsylvania and take a look at The collections you have up there in. Thanks thanks for having me and let me say on that on that vein. They can they can go to the website site national civil war museum dot Org they go to facebook and like US follow us. Do this kind of thing super super way your pal. Thank you You Bet can't thanks. Ravin welcome bye-bye become an American hero. 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