Podcast Academy Discussion with Hernan Lopez #277
Hey everyone welcome to the new media. Show my name is Todd Cochran and of course I'm joined by my co host. Mr Green. We got a great guest in the studio or in the virtual studio today. Rob You WANNA do the introduction for us. Yeah it's I'm excited to have Hernan Lopez who's the CEO of Wondering on the program with us today. Hey hearn thanks for joining us. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah that's great well. I mean `less jump right into it. how how goes the progress with the PODCAST Academy? What's going on with that right now? The academy I mom assuming dot listeners. My occurred or or or read anything about it. But for those who haven't the Konami is a membership organization. That has a goal of celebrating and fostering quality in podcasts. Making a gration. And we want to do that. In three ways. One is through off grading seminars and meet ups and sharing resources. If with professionals who joined there is Asia's on rotational people not come on his The second way is to allow professionals to network with each other. We ideally want to with members. Permission take The ability to search for each other in one is looking for a host or producer sound designer. They should be able to find one from the economy depending on on the location. Nine degrees up. The third goal of education is to Raid an annual award ceremony Tentatively goal the Golden Mikes and We we want to do it in a follow in the Footsteps Television Academy the Oscars that Recording Academy all. Those organizations are very soon learning constituency. they're all not for profit member base so professionals were working. Industry are the ones who join and they They are assigned to peer groups and then they vote on the Joan Outer Respond on the Gore. All your message. I mentioned have been around for anywhere between forty nine years the really groups of people that wand their profession to be celebrated. And that's what we went to her. If I can I've we might want to back up just a little bit. What was the was the genesis thought on on starting this? I you know I kind of spent a lot of We we all kind of We heard the announcement. Of course it podcasts movement evolutions but take us back a few steps. When did you start talking about doing this? And how did things come to To fruition? So I I think people I started wondering relatively late in the parking Easter remind. My company is only four years old before that at in the television industry For a while and before that I really starting rate on cable television so I noticed that the wasn't a group In podcasting that was formal was incorporated that on spoke to the goals of Celebrating podcasting quantity dad was adequately funded the Way Television Academy on the Oscars I I know that many organizations that From the cutting podcasters from two obviously the people's Awards that have been celebrating already for many years But I thought he was born to create underground station. Dod had significant funding to achieve all the goals that we want to achieve And An to for to refunding the non for profit foundation be self-sustainable also thought it was important for the nation to be one of members of people and not companies because if you try to do on organization where the members are companies you very quickly becomes a trade association and and you start have corporate groups Tried to navigate what their goals are on their goals may be oh boast we want another maybe a boast with people that choose to the Agassi and system through a scene Abedin and professional center and said they saw the PODCASTS movement speech. I think it's amazing is. He's a great gift the packing house. That's fact that people from the garage or from the home can launch podcasts. And do everything on their own and be better and have more listeners on better perception down podcast coming out of a company like wonder NPR. Or I heart and I think one of the goals one kind is to make sure that Dodd Rate Egli Room continues and do everything that we can to celebrate Podcasting Coming from either people who choose to his in complete by themselves or people who choose to borrow the money or any combination majoring in in I think I got a couple of unique perspectives on this. And and I'm sure rob away into you know when I started the the podcast awards originally back in I guess an hour. Two thousand five the The challenge ahead with that was even though that that was a that was started by myself independently and was separated from my company. Rob Wason Blueberry podcasting and it was essentially podcast rewards is own outright by my wife and I and the The challenge I ran into without as even though we were trying to do good and giving him exposure to people there was always this Y Todd is part of blueberry so the podcast awards have to be things that something's being driven by by by Blueberry podcasting and it really wasn't the case but there was always that perception there so I understand the need to have a. I guess for a better words in his ex analogy the separation of you know Church and state or federal government and state. Or however. You WanNa do it. There has to be this kind of separation. Otherwise people will think that there's agendas or that there. Are you know undue influence? And all that so. That was something that I ran up against with Doing the the podcast awards. I think now the way. It's structured after multiple changes is. We've we've been accomplished some separation in keep it You know kind of cleaned up the process and made it better but it took a lot of time a lot of criticism and a lot of you know. Be Honest with you. People pretty critical. They're into is I heard and I understand what you're trying to -CCOMPLISH here so And I know you're you've taken some bullets but it's it's it's it's hard because everyone looks at things a little sideways at times and say okay. What's you know what's in it for them in in in what you're trying to have you know you're trying to move the space. Ford people have a tendency to have a visceral reaction when they don't need to but at the same point. I think Robin Ibope had a experiences with the first association that was attempted to have been started and that was back in. Oh eight with sociation for downloadable media and you know it's like herding cats because everyone has an agenda and you know you it's hard to leave the agendas at the door and when I go into any type of any type of group think agreed group. Talk now always know that you know there are gonna be agendas just part of the process and hopefully can work through and set goals and organizational standards and that basically over time you build the trust and that those agendas get left at the door or their curbed or they're well known People get called out for when they need to but I understand the challenges here in getting this the started and I'll I'll be honest with you when I heard about. It is just like Oh man. They have no idea what they've undertook. Right road yes And I completely. I knew that he wasn't going to go smoothly as I would. Hope Former gold mine used to work at Nielsen. Once told me if you're ever going to be in the business measuring audiences pauling or even awards manhattan thick skin. That's fact reporting AIDS bolster. Everybody hates the audience measurement. Everybody hates be award ceremony except for the winters and and so I tried to do a Lotta Research. I was a member of the television automate briefly on and we looked at what they do. Order to recruit members and members qualify. So there are a number of those models that were picking up for instance People are going to have to show that they're working another active professionals in the odd casino industry. And they are. They belong to one or more peer groups Wise you to one beat rogue in particular whether the host or a writer or music supervisor or a reporter or marketing executive upgraded executive. And in fact we're looking for one year group Tentatively gold a one person show We're looking for the ideal name because we realized that the vast majority of podcasts are one person shows and and I think there should be US Pacific bureau specific data reunion to celebrate people that can do a whole podcast by themselves But the one thing that I thought was really organization to making it. Your unoriginal people mccown. Buddy says to be very clear that it's not a trade association so therefore we don't have a bunch of lawyers for one company or another company law. We should be doing This sort of adding Merriman. We should be doing this on that in making sure that our podcast are adequately countered by platform aor me. I think that when you get When he tried to been been You fall into a risk of alienating multiple players and again I wanted to to just make their own institution as focused as possible see. What is that something that everybody got real? While every can agree on we want to quality. We won professionals to continue to learn those skills and we professionals So those are the main goals organization. Go ahead ask me. When I'm on on those goals you also announced an an educational component to this too and I was just curious if if you had if you guys had put put some significant thought into you know as you look at you know new producers coming into the medium that are that one at one a developer professional career in this and want to earn money from what they're doing and quality definitely Does tend to map towards being able to make money from from doing a podcast. How important is the education piece to? You know what you guys are planning on doing. It is important. I can't say that we have theorized exactly what we're going to do everything the area and I do know that we're not going to try to replicate what already exists so for We have One of the plans to meet ups all over the country So that professionals At work and can get to connect and from those connections usually end up with job opportunities and to me and someone told me the other day this Ram meet up of podcasters in Orange County rate will go on and talk to them to see whether we can sponsor their meet up as opposed to creating a second meeting where there's already by the nets eighty equally Alex Bloomberg the amazing six parcels of EIBAR series called the Gimblett Academy. There's no way that we are going to try to replicate that. We're going to actually send people to listen to that. Show to Jesse. Thorn show to a number of other resources that existing broadcasting and to given to how they learn in addition to that overtime depending on the budget that we get the ambition of their sation. Will there be a way where there are specific seminars organized by the arcus Academy. Yes we like to get there but we want to walk than Than an apology. The Siamese crawl walk run No I think you're GONNA see us. Do One thing that I just is my initial reaction and there's two or three things on top of my head Number one I started immediately getting instant messages from folks that were independent podcast creators. That were extremely concerned. That based upon the least I'm looking at the initial application that it looked like there was gonna be a high bar set for in these join so I guess the question really then is in the end. Let's just put the the bread on the table. Here it what is going to be considered someone working space if you've got if you haven't individual that is actively doing podcast and what an inactive can do is definition as across support. It could be someone who's putting on an episode every week. Someone's for an episode out every month. could be someone that's done a series in there's a whole definition. Active is all over the place. What is going to be? The you know what is going to be. The criteria and heavy decided that yet how you determine if someone is working in the space. Because there's a lot of podcasts are really working in the space. They're not making the money they're just doing a show. How do we you know? Where's that house? That determination factor GonNa because we honest with you in order for this to succeed and get people to get excited about it. We inclusiveness has to be launch on present. And then yes I mean. The the rules are not setting stone yet. But there's a drought which we're going to discuss that meeting next week by they're meant to be inclusive at it's meant to allow everybody Which we understand the majority of podcasters are independent and we them too because the way you get organization to have broad credibility is by being representative of that medium Right won't one of the things that Other academies have been in the last five years? Greece is for the other wearing representative enough. Because if you look at the volume base he wasn't necessarily representative of the Abune Bub nation We wanted to Not have to correct that by rather start on the right foods. So for instance one of the things that we decided to is the majority of Board of governors will be women Half an half of the Board of governors will be either coming from companies like one or MPR or independence like Elliott accordion or more th-they or other people that were talking to In in in the in the Rotas Ace we one geographical representation we want obviously all kinds of diversity representation and we want everybody to our voice. Now there is a membership fee to join It's that right now. One hundred dollars a year will have a discount for people who joining early on a discount for students as well But I don't think that the fee will be a major deterrent. The Devil Day set right now The other thing that we will look for our two references from other professionals. Because we want to make sure that when obviously location will be done no line and we're not gonNA have time to meet people in person or sometimes perhaps even goal. We want to be able to know that you were always June for a ton and vice versa and and barn. We'd some organizations dot are already in the business of recommending Oricon puck astros on giving credits to make sure that the United States. The members are professionals. So I do have a question. It came from the audience and then A follow up to this then is so with ninety five percent of the podcasters in the space being independent Folks that are doing shows on their own and really not without a team. Are they going to be representative of this in the awards so that there's going to be enough categories where they're not just silent into a specific chunk where there's going to be enough -nough categories where they're gonna be able to be be equally represented or he actually majority represented because they are the majority of the podcasters and the second quest Follow up to that is and this is not the audience question but my question is what we've seen with the Academy Awards you looked at Or was it the Grammy's Netflix Scott? twenty one nominations They walked away with two and they spent some multiples of millions of dollars to to whatever happens within that group to be able to do. Pr and promotion to get votes. And when I'm worried about is that while we'll have and again this goes back to how you're going to have to work through the structure of the actual awards process and again i. I'm glad you have to navigate this and not me is that how do you prevent Those that have the biggest budget they be able to do. Pr It's happens within the current academies from the ones walking away with all the awards. How do you set that? So that you don't alienate the the the ninety five percent of the what I would assume would be the member base of this organization Greg Questions and I'm glad you asked them both because we have thought about an untalkative that first we're going to have awards at specifically for Independent Truly Independent. One person ought casts And they they shouldn't have in one or perhaps more than one award there will be able to compete on the general categories and our dream would be that one day. What just happened at the Academy? Awards were parasite warned known only the best International bigger and also the best picture which wasn't had never happened before. I think the same will be allowed to happen in the future. When somebody gun win the best independent PODCASTS and podcasts of the year and even been decided yet. But that's the does your stations trying to buy their way into blurred. One of the goals that we set from the get go is a the awards will be about celebrating quality not were winning weights rank and there are a number of things that signal we want quality and what. I think will be very different between us and the economy out. Wgn On film. I leaving no Sandra's on sunset. We'll see what happens and I see that on Sunset Boulevard. There are so many billboards In in Indiana stretch and Iran awards time have those billboards are bought a mood zoos on TV. Suits trying to influence voters. He's really hard to market to them. The third only three thousand or them more fourteen thousand in the case of what I'm saying is I I do that here in La because the voters are concentrated La. Nobody has luxury in August in. Because Hot Cassini's geographically dispersed. I don't think it will be a way to England's voting in a way. The question from the audience was who are all the founders not just the ones on the stage announcing all the groups they say they wanna who all the groups are that are affiliated with this or have a linemates but this area on again. They're not you know the alignments I invited people known companies. They are people who work for companies The permission up personally from the company so but I. I wanted to make sure because there was some misconceptions some of the article that NPR and wondering getting together and bureau wondering are not getting together. Aids. Anne a grown man and as B B overwhelming for. Npr is a founding member of learning station Gary Hoffmann from barracks. She's a CEO. But she sold so Aboard AMENDMENT IN THE BEAVER ORGANIZATION. One of the best Promoters of truly independent podcasting station Eric theme prostate cancer at Christie Mayor Bell. Who Work for Sony Music? Don't alright from ten for TV. He's best known for Up and Vanish Talil Ni- in La He's again Basing Atlanta Yet double golden is the content Officer four small independent optical spoke media based in Dallas Rica murthy she's on independent professional Aned the Marketing Space base. I believe I'd be to New York and Boston Gordon called from spotify. Who obviously runs the outgassing Over there or in Rosemount is a talent agent from UTM. One of the best. The most wanted only Augustine's based on one without a great gravy judgment I Lawrence spoarer he's a producer on the criminal again won a very long running show and so we have initially decided to have the four B. Seventeen people we have allocated in. We have a Niles Ready. Eleven those Governor seats or on or member sates were actively looking for the remaining six their patients to three people. Some people for instance known as I heart wasn't included. And actually that's wrong. Well known only IHEART couldn't be memorization by is specifically by the CONOR BYRNE WHO? I consider a friend. Great College to be a board member and evaluated in acquiescent said yes or no but I think he he has all the right questions and then people that we are reach on reports as well so Hernandez you go through that list. There's no indies on the governor's board yet. So are you guys gonNA fill the rest of the seats with Independent Creators Gordon? To see how he goes to our goal is by the time we got to a seventeen. You will probably be nine people that were companies and people that are in this now. You're the. Indy might be different from our readers of because to me. Don't Albright Elliott Tele Colon Rica. Murthy unauthorised border are indices. I mean they're not employed by be organizations like Like The I heart or MPR bought a true true in the Could be somebody who has absolutely no affiliation. Were actually looking for people. That are absolutely no not yet. I think that'd be a good idea to have some board members that came came out of the pure podcasting space in that represent that side. Because I believe I mean. Many of those folks have have passed her. I really ships with radio and things like that too. So I think giving giving the impression that the organization is were representing the broad spectrum of the medium. I think is really important. One of the other questions that I had for you though is podcasting. I believe over the next couple of years is GONNA see phenomenal expansion and growth into other markets around the world and was just wondering if you guys are starting to think about this organization this awards starting to look at the globe as its platform and said of just the US that hosing the crawl walk run framework. I would love to eventually be global organization. We want to make sure in particular. I want to be mindful of not promising that anybody or Mary royal in the world will be able to join because we won't be able to vet obligations as easily if they come from a country. That doesn't speak English just to ask about it. That's one of the questions that were talking about next week. So from the Audience Kevin Black ask have the founders ever worked together. We have not for the same company. But we have Cobra. An number of initiatives Era Dean on I And and Kerry Othman work together on pot fron which is a a podcast upfront. Travels around the country. We've done shows in Alessandra San Francisco Detroit and we're GONNA do a one in Chicago this year And you know we all know each other and we have multiple injury events by visit acting the first time that this group gets together. Now the couple of big companies did ENTERCOM or cumulus. Say anything or they asked her as ray thought towards them we talk there. There's one person at entercom that have reached out to And she's going to come to their meeting next week decimal server with the goal of I would like to have her be known on the board and Cumulus media were talking to As well so someone suggests in a Chat Room. Would you guys be open to a poll? On who would be the best indies for the the rest of the Board of Governors? That's interesting I hadn't thought about it. Yes would only be open to it. I'm not we need. We won It's There's so many things at once or to war which is young diverse geographical representation diversity of Gender Racial And a number of other goals that we it is going to be hard to find somebody who can take all the boxes absolutely Suggestions I view in San any names To me We're GONNA be talking about names on on a of the media Wednesday. Yes so there's lots of comments in In the chat room some on my personal patron and in some round the new media show so After the show you can go back and read all the comments. I'll send you the link to them the seer yet. Just more discussion about About independence I think. This is a theme. That were you know I've been hearing and Rob Spin hearing the concern that And again I. I understand this completely that it's going to be impossible to make everyone happy. It's not GonNa Happen on round one. I I fully fully understand that are I think though that we need to make sure that you know from the training perspective here okay. Here's something else in the back of my head. So okay we're GONNA put together their training packages you're gonNA pointed towards other groups Training information what is the so. Then will that be? You know what is going to turn into podcasters chasing a tail. Numbers excellence okay. Here are great interview techniques here in in an is if they follow those techniques is he gonNa make it easier to win an award. I'm really throwing conspiracy out there a little bit. But what do you think that I I understand? You're trying to improve the space and true improved the quality but podcasters Often will look at information and say okay. This is what I need to do to win. A A golden Mike. Or whatever the awards up being named Do we want them chasing that because this space is Ben made up of no rules? I are yeah it does agree question because I think look up and speak for on personal experience. I think any listener who listens to one ratio can tell you that they sound very different from what used to be that traditional ratio. One of the sounds. That was more celebrated on the moment right. So if you listen to this cinematic this sound very Hollywood or the same reason. A lot of people were used to that. The sound of cereal did not like our house and that's fine And there's no one sound that should work for everybody I think What you people should be able to learn from different ways of doing things on approaching some stories and the British show that works for them on shows designed to win awards. I I think that I am. There is in the television industry some degree off award seeking that I mean I. I've seen that when when watching television Because it is. It is fun to win an award. I don't think that anybody ever goes and says was going to do this. This way bodies that I am now do this way too because I want to win. I don't think that happens. Yeah this is just so. The audience knows is not criticism at all. I'm just springing up points for people are GonNa make and to and I think Tom Webster just you know. Kinda remind me that he says Thomas in the chat room says what is being lost in. The criticism of this effort is that is the most multi lateral yet to just do something to promote podcasting Jenner public and that alone to support and I agree you know and I don't think we disagree but I think what ends up happening is and and I tried to real myself into is that you know I don't want to become the old curmudgeon and in complain about something that I haven't given a chance and that's why I have. Just you know at this point. I want to watch and see what you folks are going to do. And in the. I think it's exciting but I also understand how this community is and they are a pit unforgiving at times the DOT at actually. There's a civil lining in all the criticism that we that we can which is evacuated season hadn't happen. I don't know about I will be on this show. I don't know that I would have made sure that We would have more representation than I was planning on from From truly truly independent from especially from people especially from ideal that term. Og podcast. I read up the and and sky and yes the definitely. We didn't have enough Off The end but I don't think that is necessarily needed so I I'm just going on the record. I am not interested in the Board of Governors position. I'm just going on record here in saying that I would not accept a spa too busy as it is and I think that from my perspective is there's plenty of room in this space for lots of new voices. Lots of people to share new ideas lots of people to come up with ways. Expand this space. And that's what we're trying to do right. We're trying to get more listeners to listen to more shows to build audiences because I'm in the business of making sure podcasters podcasts. That they grow their business and we all want to see the space race. So you know don't don't have to include the Geez all the time that's because there's no privilege here. Let's be frank I you know I I have an opinion. But it's just an opinion all podcasters. Having opinion I go ahead. You don't let me add to that too. You know. I think the one of the strengths of this medium. If you go back looking fifteen years is that in. This is how I've looked at it. A whole time is that it's basically a blank canvas and people can do what they want to do with their shows and with their with their opportunity in podcasting and and that's Kinda what's been the strength and somewhat the weakness of the of the podcasting platform its openness and it's blank canvas type of viewpoint of all are included in any type of show format Is is okay. You know some are going to succeed or not. And that's been that's been the real strength of the medium and I think if this organization can represent that level of diversity And and Risk taking and and trying new things. I think it's GonNa be a real real strengths to this organization that it that it kind of looks at the medium like that brick ban. That's definitely the goal I mean. Once again we want to build on his Asian. That will be here for years to come. Nunca REASONS WHY IT IS A nonprofit. That's one of the reasons why I mean ideally wanting to and that's why I wanted to start from than just make sure that at a at least when the governor level we have enough people that are not working for For for the becomes and I think too if you look back at the history of the space you know when when podcasting kicked off. Why did we do this? We did this because there were really no way to get distribution beyond a website. There was an N. Rules and we fell into this in the email you have to go back and look at them curry winer and what they did and what they were in in Adams vision of having open distribution and really we had this stick it to the man type of To mentality I mean it was really pretty and I. I've talked about this a lot recently. But what we've evolved into is Is is is a little more mature space but at the same time the rebels in us are still a little bit rubbish and I think that the simple fact that this show is example. Robin I do know. Prep NONE ZERO. We show up. We talk about whatever we talk about. We don't add it Suffer clipping the ends and doing little a little sound shaping. That's IT and the saying goes up so we love doing a show this way. You at wondering. Guess what you guys put up. A beautiful content heavily edited in soundscape in all those things. And there's there's room for everybody and people don't know these allow me by my first experience with radio at seventeen on showing up pirate radio station tear through Britishness off. Our boxing and I got kicked out of high school for being a rebel or any dean. The school newspaper on making jokes by my professors that they used to make fun of each other by the reresented and then that led me to pursue a career in media and But at the Mike or you know I'm still that right. Well that's good. You know maybe at some point a co host on a podcast or something. We can convince you to join us on a regular basis. I don't know how to is. You Know Robin I both We've been around from the beginning with the same point where both talking the podcasters every single day and then we hear the struggles and we hear what they WANNA do. And it runs the gamut from You know the largest podcast down to the person who's got three episodes in the deck and you know we want them to succeed in. We can do to help them. Point them towards resources ideas things to help them grow their shows. That's all that value you know or or added value for the whole space so I'm on board. I think that the the training piece is going to be exciting and and pointing to resources But I again I think you know from the initial reaction been the major any just being fully transparent was that I think the podcasters were taken back a little bit not recognize. That and I'm full. Gazer are going to address that as you move forward and but I think that probably there lies. Probably your your number. One challenge in this space is is is making. Maybe maybe I'm wrong. I've been wrong and saying the the in these are the ones we're going to have that they're going to have to satisfy or am I wrong. I think it's a smart thing to move. Especially if it's a membership organization. I think trying to appeal to as much of this podcast or community to join in to get involved is always good. And that's been one of the challenges. You Know Todd you you and I have been facing in. This medium is an podcasting up to this. Point has been you know. Kind of like corralled cats. I mean everybody and that's been like I've said that's been the strength and the weakness to some degree. Everybody's running off in different directions It would be great if we collaborated more and work together more as a as an industry and as a community and and todd you know we're both starting up this process coalition project and trying to bring the The technical community together and Which is taking on a little bit of a different direction than what her in is. is advocating for with this podcast academy which is more content focused and things like that which you know. There is two sides of the same industry. There's the more technical side. There's the marketing side. There's the distribution side in in in W- that organization can't do everything so I think that having the podcast academy Kinda takes care of that other piece somewhat from a broad perspective and then maybe some some other type of organization can be birth to can kinda take care of the of the business side. The technical side take on those challenges. Todd like you said And and really try and pull something together that can further the industry In all the other parts. So that's kind of an eye on. What do you think about that? I mean having a separate everyone's Asian that kind of tackles those ends of the of the needs. I think I mean I think that makes sense Look on I had that conversation Allow whether the economy should out include the technical side. I'm not close to it. I'm just very mindful not biting more than we can chew especially early on and there's one thing that I wanted to have made. Some people said that the announcement was rushed and it is true it was Russia was really time. Because I have big keynote Slowed August movement. Illusion. I knew that was the right venue because he was in front of the the broadest coalition of Augustine professionals. Dan have promised me that's lot Back in December and and disseminate that to make fun goes around to see who would be interested in in a neo supporting organization being one of the founding members. So we didn't have a lot of time to talk to everybody and bought Banal the new society. We're talking to the right people in. I think the effort Robin I were trying to. Kinda get going on this. Ara says coalition thing. I keep telling the assembled folks that are working with. I says you know we don't have the marker are mats and the podcast and all these teams did have these great apps and luckily we have some participation from some of the big companies like. We've we've had some apple representation of the stuff. They've come in and are listening and willing to contribute to the conversation by says if we can't get everyone. This is not gonNA work because down from the basic hosting provider to the PODCAST has his own. Maybe cooking his own. Feed all the way up to you. Know the the APPS out there if we make changes try to suggest improvements not let me be careful not making changes. Rsf's we're trying to expand our assess a little bit We're going to have to pick our battles. There's GonNa be one or two things we're GONNA maybe able to get done and then have a big list of other stuff. We hope to get done. It's hard this is hard hard hard to get people into agreement and from one end of the pipeline to the other so I fully understand that the challenges and starting group at the same time. You guys are just going to is. We're going to have to buckle down and do it as if as you as our two and putting organization together so people that are going to want to work with you. They're going to have to work like this is. This is not easy this is this is work and it's GonNa take it's GonNa take money to in having support in Omen. That's exactly what you're doing and I can. You Tell us about the the nonprofit that you pulled together for this so it's Yeah it's essentially a not for profit ended up. Fiber one seeks organizations to other professional membership organizations. And it's been set up based in New York and were applying for all the promises that we need to apply and the organization will ultimately owned by the members of the same way on television on camera and the scars are there is We have the help of two great professionals call. Michelle call on John. Alaska's who themselves have helped set up the Audio Publishers Association actually being the Executive Directors. So they're working to help us set up and run as the day today until such day when eventually get they're going to budgets we hope again in the future we may be able to afford fulltime staff any internalisation the way the economy other countries have on again baby steps her name? I think you just answered a question. That's been lingering out there by some of the reporters on that on that alignment so that was kind of brought up the other day and I tell them I don't know. Ask her how that works. I answered that question. I was introduced to. I knew Michelle from work that she did for the elite. The awards another great nonprofit organization and and then she got reconnected with me by somebody at stage route. Sony could help specializes in setting up not for profits and young her. Her essentially care group is on east. Small Group is it's what they do. Is they set up on no for profit organizations and then they help them. You get the multiple rap and that that makes sense because they're not profit thing for those of you that are listening to have never had to set up a nonprofit. It's easy to set up a for profit business. It is very difficult to set up a nonprofit business right. Yeah so going back then talking about support. This is in order to get fulltime staff. You'RE GONNA have to raise a significant amount of money. And and you know I look at the dues. I pay to some organizations. We belong to and boy that. That checks hardy one to write every year What do you think then the structure is going to be? Because if you're trying to do this as a member organization now to are you going to are you gonNa have corporate tears or no probably not right. No the will be room. For companies to sponsor the organization just bond soared the awards response or meet up. So that's what other offer Providence Station. And then when we run the awards they will be an entry fee. That tells me in. Line with the annotations. Do you know to help us. Process the volume of also making sure that people apply for the awards that make the most sense because we will require that of voters. Seventy five bucks. They have listened to this shows that they're voting on or all the enemies. What we don't want to see is a system that ends in based on opium. People just won't stop the Hound. Listen to The finalization will come from donations. Plus member dues award injuries. So will all of the members get an opportunity to vote for the nominated Shows for the awards or every member will vote for that worked on their peer group blast. All the members will vote on the general awards. I gotcha on the analysts. Do you see the the nomination process working just curious. Or if you've got that clear yet we don't have that tier yet so we're going to. Obviously there will be a filtering. Everybody who applies how applies. How do we get to ones that? Make the shortlist thing. What happens in the allegation? Although I might be wrong on the peer group goes through all the entries and then they vote on their Andrews on that essentially crates of a master shortlist enforced where the ultimate release ends up. Yeah I know that I have gotten away again. Just you know from running my awards. We have a there was no entry fee and now we require a registration fee to participate in The did get some push back on that. Our interest is relatively inexpensive. We try to keep it that way for any podcasters so that they can afford to to enter and have their audiences participated structured differently. Obviously but I think to then there's going to be again this fine line that using going back to talking about You know Netflix. Spending twenty six million dollars or whatever it was they spent two Oscars out of twenty one. Nominations we gotta make. I hope that you'll take into consideration that these podcasters creating great content and making no money What is that look like from an entry fee is at you know? Do you have a different level? We want to happen are then. Motions are going to table on Wednesday just to make sure that the connery's that are specifically dedicated to independent. Hashers up Rigorously and then how do you keep commercial shows out of the independent show? So there's gotta come up with all this definition so I usually one to To navigate because if you just count Who publishes the show? And how many how many people have on the credits I? I think it's easy to determine when I show is is not you know truly truly independent and does does the peer groups structure help without to does he does as well Okay because I think a lot of shows now. She gets even more complicated. There's a lot of shows that have people that are volunteers that do prep and do social promotion and all that stuff. So the lines get really blurred. Currently you know because of the nature of the space and people's you know something about budget some people don't right Yes so I mean one of these will probably end up doing this and I know that I am. I getting myself into trouble. Don't do it if you don't don't get yourself in trouble. We all that governors are orange. You have an opportunity to comment on the On other roles But I think we're going to send them out for a broader group of people to take Luca on. I'm definitely going to be talking to the people that television got him. You just see how they navigate those usual though they don't have similar. Pro-nazi goes to make a television show union network. There's just no question in the fifty bucks. So have you even thought about The the aspect of the the actual awards ceremony itself a- even gotten that far even think about what that looks like a little bit. I come I mean I I want to do it early on For Simplicity and John and efficiency I think is timed Orion one of the other industry events so we have enough people in the same city of that same time. The represent your dream again. I think most people don't realize it's one thing to go to the Oscars or the enemies of being around for ninety years. You're not one of those organizations just getting beat bowl the talent to show up. You say don't know that you're GonNa wish dot and Todd knows that. Well that's that's why we have A. It's even worse. Hernan it's worse because we've done a situation with the podcast awards where the two hundred and twenty nominees all have to send an acceptance video. Okay because we do it live now. Let's add another component to that. If you don't send a video in you one we must qualify them right now. I've never said this publicly but we have had in the past a show that has one but yet did not send a simple video saying hey thank you audience for voting for me and they were disqualified because they didn't send their video or you know in order to get it so they won't even send you know and it's in the rule so you have to submit an acceptance video and they don't that's challenging so. I understand completely about trying to get people into play so when you call their name. It's crickets right in the number one event that you probably could do that with podcast movement. I would imagine but not determined yet but yeah he's not determined. I Don Franks great colleague on ankles game a friend and a the at one of talk on is for sure too so I think we covered everything. Have we went through or anything? Hernan they WANNA talk about it. All about the podcasting space. Or what's what you think is going on in the content area right now around podcasting and kind of kind of the I mean I I mean I have a question about it. I mean around fictional content. Do you think we're just seeing the the very early stages of the growth of that I hope so I I don't know if people notice when we started wondering That's how we started. We wanted to do fiction shows because being here in Hollywood understanding a little bit of drama space. We thought that that was had a weaker that we could have meaningful Stationing we noticed at the time. Two Thousand Sixteen this ceiling of variety for fictional Audio shows or audio dramas was way lower than it was or true stories on so we kind of art are interesting audio drama and tale a couple of months ago. We launched the show all blood ties of the first Domino Donnie. Three years with eleven. Jay offline Josh God it's Story reminiscent of succession. Needs the a catching Keel podcasts. We really brought over Was Number one for twelve days. Any US I episode one is going to cost a million downloads pretty soon. So that's GonNa be the first and re entry for us into podcast in all your that way. So why do you think that the fictional side kind of stalled out there? I mean I know that I mean if you look fundamentally at the roots of the podcasting medium. It's it's been mostly reality. Based soups stories. That have really driven this medium forward for the last fifteen years. It makes sense. But they're huge gap. There is like for like we had some great shows in the early days but then they just poof they disappeared and then it took a long time before we had I. I'M GONNA call it fan fiction or if you know whatever the Jonah is actually called. It was a long time before we had stories back in that space. I think is gonNA means nothing. We all realize this envying work hard and expensive to make and demand from advertisers. Wasn't as strong because you don't have the colors. Red Hat's Manasian Yuga. Y'All end up spending twice as much as you would. Not Trucial aren't really made it Just just draw. The reality was that market changing with Hollywood get more involved or yet will for us. What change was on our promotional platform? Got A lot bigger and we have listeners. Who Love some kinds of stories that we took a gamble that they will love scene stories body. The restrictions says dirty John and blood is there are themes common themes collingwood Dr Death so we brought it to those listeners. I think numbers on it. So when when a podcast turns into TV show and go like Amazon prime or whatever but yet the the audio podcast is still public. Did you guys see a bump in the audio podcast when the TV show has released or what? What was the dynamic there even even when it's not direct rates of podcast when Dirty John came on the television. Show was a four-time increase on listening from one month to annex to casts joking risque mean but we just saw the same thing with the Hernandez Commend Joe. Knapp picks wasn't related to our show. A picked up some of the same phone goals that we Review for the first time and we saw huge Brazilian missing chart show. But that's GonNa borrow something that we weren't really. Dr Death is launching in the fall On Biko it's about our gas We have all twelve showcasing development Serious just announced yesterday the set up of week rash about they we work. The rise of we weren't setup apple. Tv Oh I was just GONNA fall. Put the thought process here on this but do you see Window wing of podcast content happening Around the release of a TV show derivative like maybe putting that into a paid content model. I don't know if necessarily is going to be around a continental by a definitely. Were going to be tactical. When are we know that out television shows or onto pushing the podcast marketing? Hernan do you And we tried to. I usually ask this question around the beginning of the year. We're already here Into what is it march or whatever at almost what are your worries about the podcasting spacey. Having worries right now none of Agassi's base obviously the potential that that coronavirus Reality as to upend the industry on on the insurance on it but just the economy right in advertising which is their bread and butter are in the streets. One short term concern. I think podcasting these just getting. I know you guys have been added for a long time. But I think there's so many things that still haven't been done Their their form some being explored there Voices that I haven't found On an invasion. I think we have a long known Few of us. I think we can take some solace that in two thousand eight when the economy crash advertisers doubled and tripled down on advertising and podcast. We never saw in decrease in advertising dollars. I don't know how to explain it. Everyone else took a hit. We didn't you know what because he works. When when when recession under Scots to ever dicing the typically stick with what drives results right and and they they moved towards quality too. So you know how people move toward quality as well as far as products and content. I would imagine so I think your business probably fairly immune from significant hit. I would think now not number one. I always say we were making where where now sixty two employees and we try to eat. Always be methodical last year. We made a profit and that's That that's not always the case for startups in in in in the media space were very thoughtful about the kind of Bechtel. We may not every show obviously makes money. Some shows are expensive to make an And their revenue eventually not immediately realize. But I'm really proud of the company lineup on behalf of the team that we have on and just how listeners are responding to a different. Google shows that we may awesome. Yeah also also noticed that you guys are investing in kind of kind of driven groups in other countries. I think you guys did a deal with a company in Australia to. Oh I can't remember the name of it but it had wondering the name but it's almost make you know a different group that is affiliated with you guys as making content as well. Can you explain that that model a little bit and mowing the Australian deal is strictly an odd representation deal? Ranieri's neighborhood the do our advertising sales in the country What we did last year. Two things was To create a joint venture with Stitcher to Sell ads in the UK. That song called her And and we are Three depot formerly from horrible men and and at agencies to associate bring Teachers our image of the market and then Voter up by launching local language versions of Dr Death on business. Wars aren't so through that we expanding to France Germany throughout Latin Americans pain and those are hosted on separate platforms from where you're hosting the English stuff. Two right aren't teen okay. Okay well I think you know hurting unless you have anything else I. I think I've got all my questions. Answer was anything left in the audience that that we didn't ask that you wanted to know well and is there anything that you wanted to share that we haven't covered. Yeah I just really wanted to thank you guys for giving me the chance to come on your show. It was a lot of fun and I I really appreciate. You guys have been very open with your suggestions for the economy and they'd use agendas are only going to make me better and for that. I think you will thank you for for stepping up in trying to do something like this. I think it is a good thing here in the long run hurting. Just have fun with this because I guess you already know. You're there's no way you're GonNa make everyone happy but I think in the end I think we're we all just want the space to grow and and there's plenty of room for lots of awards and time podcasters get promoted. They talk about it and it gets impressed and I. It's this it's all good. There's no complaints here. Wonderful all right. Thank you both Hey thanks so much for being on by thank you take all right right. I think that was good. I'm glad he came on. Yeah good too. I think a lot of people got a lot of great questions answered. I think he was very open. And transparent with what they were trying to do and some of the struggles that they're having and and I think that they're all struggles that are expected. I mean I. I wasn't surprised by anything. I think You know I think that the adjustments that need to be made are. I don't think that they're huge adjustments. I just think that you know. And He's thinking about him so I think it's all good. I think they are probably still. We'll we'll see I I give them the death of the doubt. I think they're they're we've they've been challenged a little bit to try to figure out how to fit in the indies. And I'm we'll see how they define that and just give them the. Bethune doubt this time and as as I've said from the beginning here And kind of sit back and watch and see how they do it and But you know anything. It raises a space. I'm sincerely Pentti Karen saying that's a good thing. I think it is too and I did. Notice todd that we crossed over the nine hundred thousand. Podcast Mark Yeah Mind she wrote my journal. Directories about ready to kick to a million but Yeah I think I've got some duplicates in there though so I don't WanNa go and make an announcement When we do. But Yeah my internal directories very close to popping over a million but like forty. What was it like forty? Three percent of the podcasts are active something I have to go back and look at his numbers but there was it was like no not that many was two hundred. Something thousand look like active so Daniel. I have to go back and look at. Daniel's turn it was over forty percent so so is what I saw on his sites. So what's the name of his website again? I'm I have to go look and where it's at my podcast reviews again. Ag thanks yeah. I agree thanks to Hernan for coming on. Yeah no I think was great you know and he he very open to to come on the show and it was great to have him here and was interesting. He came on this show but it was unwilling to talk to some other folks which I thought was curious but I know they're trying to you know and it's hurting his a good dude so I mean it's probably good to you know what what we were able to talk about today. I think we'll clear up a lot of the concerns. I think as well as you know maybe point out air is that they need to work on the the shore walls concerns too so I think it had a dual dual benefit. Yeah said Gee Governor Daniels site and pull that Yuck Rain Up. Yeah I did and it's looks like Nine hundred and two thousand one hundred eighty nine is the current number and it said and he has down here active versus inactive podcasts. He's got Active at forty two point seven seven percent. And how's he defining active at least one episode in the last Ninety Days? So forty two percents. Almost four hundred thousand shows have created one episode in the last ninety days. That's remarkable for almost forty three percent so the number though goes down when you get to is active. I remember that chart. There was a a big peak. But because there's a chart that breaks it out by episode two on activeness I think. Yeah it was okay. Shows Forty seven point eight. Six percents have ten or more episodes her. Yeah percent of. That doesn't say they're active though right. That's just in the end. Yeah that's in the feed and then it looks like sixteen over sixteen percent have one episode. Okay so sixteen percent of the nine hundred in two thousand shows only one episode one episode right. Grosso calculator in front of me. But that's a pretty big number still it is. I know one hundred and ten thousand of them reside at two right well. We'll leave them alone today. Yeah so I think it's interesting in a news on that you know. We've crossed over that line so at this pace it. It looks like we added about forty seven thousand podcast in the last thirty days. So that's that's an incredible number right and that's that's subtracting the removed as well. So that's that's new that is that is an incredible absolutely incredible number which means we're going to be over a million within sixty days so the so the question is where where's at distribution. Us A foreign. What's we need to break Daniel? Hey go get the breakdown on that. Tell me where those I don't know if you can get the data where Oh maybe I mean I I mean we know on our platforms. Were contents being listened to and not listen to? I want to know where the creators are. Oh over the critters are yeah I want to. Who's you know? Where's the breakdown? Where's the biggest growth? The United States Europe. Wear whereas you know. That's what I WANNA know. That's up number. Forty seven thousand one month a big number. It's massive so the medium is growing fast and Oh and also I should probably mention how many shows were removed. Let's see her because I think he has says. Eight thousand seven hundred forty seven were removed in the last thirty days so almost almost nine thousand shows were pulled out of the apple podcasts catalog. I remember they've been trying. They didn't start their clean up until about a year ago so they way way through it right right so it says twenty one thousand have been pulled out in the last ninety days or about one hundred and sixty six shows a day. That's amazing lose some big numbers. Yeah and you know just for the record. I haven't done any cleanup so I haven't pulled shows my directory so I got a lot of dead ones in there too. We'll most forms. Do you know I guess it depends on what you consider did show is that when the feed is down amis down yet depends on down and that could be the vast majority of what's getting pulled down by apple to We just don't know the breakdown of what status was yeah speeds and why they were pulled down now all right well. I think we've had a whopper of a show here. Rob Yeah. I think it'll be bitter popular. Show I think in the medium. I think so chilled and you apologize. Everyone that's listening. We have not got the RSS Coalition meeting show out I have to do some editing. Been asked by a couple parties to Remove their statements. Don't they don't them in the public domain for some legal reasons so maybe that legal reasons but it is legal reasons companies temping? So if you're part of the Coalition Slack Channel The unredacted we unredacted audio. Is there So anyway Nothing nothing nothing dramatic irs super-secret or anything like that it's it's no now so I mean if you listen to the even the edited audio. You're going to get the real strong impression and feel for what the with. The sentiment is about the artists coalition. And what we're trying to pull together. I think you'll get a really good snapshot of. Why and who's involved and things like that but I'll be frank the reason why it's not as I have been deep in spreadsheets. Getting not blueberries taxes done but my personal Texas done moving and starting a bunch of stuff going. I sent stuff the accountant yesterday so I have a little more breathing now. And I I talked to Marco Arment WHO's Who's the creator of overcast at The PR REX podcasting threats event here in in New York. You're just this last week and And he said he was going to join us on the media. Show all so. Let's try rob to get him on the fourteenth of much so I think he was very Outspoken at that pure x event About you know being very careful about making changes to the medium Around RSS and and being very very careful that we don't break the good thing that we have here. So I heard that there was as I had a rep there as well. What was are they are the suits here are we? Are we going to have to wrestle with some of the corporate folks? Oh yeah I think I mean. Large money and investment is here in the medium and we we just have to adapt to it and keep touting what we're doing with the podcast academy is Keeping Independent podcasters front and center is the is the focus of the of the medium and just making sure that everybody keeps that in mind. I ran. I RAN A UP. A nonscientific Paul Tom. If you're listening who's completely nonscientific ran a poll on my audience where I got fifty five responses. So you know not a big sample In the age range run from about thirty five to seventy six and I've got a pretty wide range of listened to my show and the first question I asked was were you okay with me sharing your Ip data with an advertiser and that was just the crux of the question Thirty Three said no twenty two said yes. It's okay and it didn't swing the yes weren't drew a largely on the younger groups. It was all across the board so I couldn't get a handle on an age bracket And again they didn't do survey monkey enough like this. This was just an email. They sent me the second question I said was would you be cool with me selling your Ip data from you listening to my audience with facebook. Google and Amazon. Would you would you? Would you be okay with me doing that? fifty said no five said yes and then the last question I asked was is. Would you be cool with the advertiser and I made up some fake advertiser name. Would you be cool with the advertiser taking that data and sharing that with Their inter-business departments and partners of them to track you when you come to their sites from in the not even necessarily referral but let's say It was a pen company and they sent them over to an eraser company. Would you be okay with being tracked down the Eraser? Companies Webpage fifty five said. No interesting so we've got kind of kind of spectrum of acceptance Sir some degree. Well not a lot of acceptance Asano. But I'm clear where that accepting line is from from the numbers. Yeah and then. The final question was if you could opt in if there was a mechanism for you to opt in would you opt in to being tracked. And that was more of a loose question. I didn't get as many total responses on that but it was really Kinda like Split Down. The Middle. People said that they would Because again I said if you could opt into all this or opt out and it was kind of split and and some of the comments were well. I'm already given this. You know I've already agreed to have this shared with Amazon and Google and facebook if I if I like you todd and that was kind of the thing if I like your show I would probably opt in to Lao that to happen so you could be monetize. That was kind of the response And they said you know that they don't want to be just a across the board they wanNA give that on a show by show basis and I thought. Oh that's interesting. Yeah well I think the the whole whole discussion really at this pyrex. Podcasting threats event was really focused around the tension between Monetization and privacy. Right so how you know in your your little research. There really is indicative of the of the the question. And and how emmy even if we could. How would we deploy an opt in process across this whole industry? That was one of the key questions that we we had breakout groups that got together to talk about that issue And come up trying to come up with ideas on how that might happen. could that process be Commonly shared across the cost some sort of a deployment in the RSS feeds of being able to to have that option process be gathered on a this on a distributed basis but aggregated into a centralized repository of opt in that can be shared across multiple platforms I think that's probably one option on my my fear. Is that if we don't do something like that? The what we're going to start to see is content get sucked into proprietary platforms more and more over time because those proprietary platforms can do Often just for their platform right and so The advertisers will tend to come in and spend more money in those proprietary platforms in sponsoring podcasts. in offer higher. Cpm's two shows that are in those proprietary platforms in this is fundamentally were the threat lies to the openness of the podcasting medium so mark. I don't have that publishing where I just talked about it in my show So if you want to hear the Kauai frame the question it was done on episode fourteen. Twenty e c unless it was twice on fourteen twenty five about a thirty minute mark and then last night. I talked about the results at about the eight to ten minute. Mark ON EPISODE. Fourteen twenty seven so By happy to try to pull that together at some point but again it was purely unscientific. I just had them email me. Only and the those That data is some sort of an online website. Or you can put it right. Could I could put it on my. It's it's in my show but I have to go pull it out and I could blog about it so I think that and again it's purely you know. It is like rolling. His eyeballs is not a poll. It was just a survey survey right. Yeah and it might be the basis for for a session for you at a podcast movement. I already submitted as a matter of fact. Submissions for podcast movement are due today. Really this is the last day today is the last day. So if you haven't yet rob you better get busy. You've got until midnight. Wow Okay I guess I shouldn't have told you crap. I would've been one less lipson session at the show. We don't do Lipson sessions. We do training cell phones and and and talk to be really fair but I. I'm sure we'll be doing this. Show live at that event too. So yeah there's no session mission for that. So that's something I've talked to my team about too is like you know I i. I'm I review. All the sessions are going in and I talked to our team members. I'm like we have to make sure we're inclusive in broad. We can't be focused on the agenda of blueberry. We have to make sure that we're we go in. We'RE TEACHING PEOPLE. Because if we don't you're not you're sessions is getting approved. Dan's GonNa read right through that and say. Oh that's that sounds pitchy. And that's the last thing that We WanNa do an event like that. We WanNA train not pitch because we all get pissed off when we get pitched right totally. Yeah that's true. Oh March I was the last day while that is a couple of days. So you've got a COUPLA days. I'm incorrect so that would be Sunday. All right right right. Okay Rob. We're in our twenty two. I think it's time to go anything. WE'RE GONNA be a protest. Yeah Oh yeah well. We're going to be doing a live show on the seven th Fryer were having Tells who are guess are GonNa be and give it time and everything. Send the people in the windy tune in. Actually we've got a lawsuit. We've got glen. The Geek is going to be on the show with us down there and causing South Glen the Geek when he's a horse guy. Well well. He's a horse guy too. He's the executive director and of the Horse Radio Network right so so attack about a dozen smile. It's amazing. Yeah Yeah. So he's Gonna. He's he's going to join us as well. So so it'll be a it'll be an interesting show a question about it and then who else is going to be on with us Was destroyed a blank on that name to put I do. I know you did shoot. I just left me to snatch a lady or yes it is actually. We are horrible. We are horrible. Let me look here any night I I I Apologize Lewis here. I'm looking at my email. I am too bad right now. 'cause he's listened to the show. So you rob you forget Dr Untidy case forgotten us that was bird whereas Glenn's email. I'm just now where we are. We are horrible host. We are horrible. All right so we'll get that information in the show notes Well it's it's going to be on the on the website podcast so it's Saturday right doing on Saturday Saturday a noon to one PM. Okay on the main stage during lunch. So yeah I am I. I can't even find the email from you. I know it's weird I I'm I'm I'm looking to. I'm not finding out bad bad okay. Well anyway everyone thanks for being here. Thanks for he guys can laugh. And that is. Everything's for being on the new media show and We'll see you Saturday a week from Saturday at podcast. Live at twelve noon. We're going to try to go live and bringing the gear and hopefully the connection won't be as crappy as because I was on my five for the last event Pontius boom evolutions. So we'll keep our fingers crossed that we can Stay connected here. Yeah Yep should be okay all right everyone and todd dot com or at Geek News and rob. I'm on twitter at Route Greenlee and as with trees and I have rubbed really dot com myself. And if you want to reach out to me because certainly send me an email to rob G at Lipson DOT COM. All right folks. Thanks so much. We'll see annex timer. Take Care Bye bye but.