Morning Joe 2/28/19
And some really bad things happen to auto. So really, really bad thing. Why are you on? He tells me he tells me that he didn't know about it. And I will take him at his word green confidence in my intelligence people. But I will tell you that President Putin was extremely strong and powerful in his denial today spoke with the king I spoke with the crowd Prentice yesterday. And he strongly said that he had nothing to do with us. This was at a lower level. He's convinced that he's convinced that Kim Jong UN didn't know anything about the deadly abuse of an American college student. He takes flooding. Putin's word that Russia didn't hack the two thousand sixteen election, and he believes the Saudi Crown prince wasn't involved in the murder of Jamal kashogi. Good morning and welcome to morning, Joe. It is Thursday February twenty eighth. The president's comments on believing Kim Jong Hoon came in his news conference this morning in Hanoi right now. President Trump is making the long trip home after his summit with North Korea's Kim Jong came to an abrupt end with no deal reached between the two leaders scheduled signing ceremony between the two leaders was scrapped and the president left Vietnam. Two hours early. The White House issued a statement saying that President Trump and Kim Jong Hoon had quote, a very good and constructive meetings. The two leaders discussed various ways to advance. Denuclearization and economic driven concepts. The statement continues, quote, no agreement was reached at this time but their respective teams. Look forward to meeting in the future. Here's the president in his news conference. After that statement was released. We thought and I thought and secretary Pompeo felt that it wasn't a good thing to be signing. Anything if we had some options at this time, we decided not to do any of the options. And we'll see where that goes. But it was. It was a very interesting two days. And I think actually it was very productive today's, but sometimes you have to walk and this was just one of those times. And we'll there was about the sanctions when third summit Mr President. Basically they wanted the sanctions lifted in their entirety, and we couldn't do that. They were willing to d- new garage portion of the areas that we wanted, but we couldn't give up all of the sanctions for that. So we continue to work in. We'll see, but we had to walk away from that particular sixty I should we had to walk away from the we'll all the sanctions that are currently in existence remains her they're in place. So you know, is watching as a lot of you folks over the weeks have said, oh, we've given up we haven't given up anything. And frankly, I think will end up being very good friends with chairman Kim and with North Korea. I think they have tremendous potential. I've been telling everybody they have tremendous potential unbelievable potential, but we're going to see, but it was about sanctions they wanted sanctions lifted, but they weren't willing to do an area that we wanted. Kim promised me last night is regardless he's not going to do testing of rockets and nuclear not going to do testing. So I trust him. And I take him at his word. I hope that's true. But in the meantime, we'll be talking. All right. Well, David Ignatius a lot to take in there. But I would I would just say at least for me personally that seems like the best of all circumstances where the president continues to communicate with the country that we were close to war with a year ago that most foreign policy experts gave us a fifty fifty chance of having a land war and the Korean peninsula a year ago. And talk, but didn't give away anything which was the great fear, especially after the Coen testimony yesterday, which was going to get to and one moment. Joe, I agree with you. I I think as President Trump said sometimes you have to walk. It seems as if the sticking point here was what US officials have been worried about since the Singapore summit in June of last year. Namely that the North Koreans would want removal of most major sanctions before they had taken significant irreversible steps towards denuclearization. In the in the view of Trump's closest advisors. This was the problem with all past efforts with North Korea that they'd been paid too early for inadequate insufficient compromises and their nuclear appropriate or room had continued. So I think you put it just right in negotiation. You have option you have Down's you have sessions that produce agreements you have others that end early. And hopefully, people will come back to the table later. If I think Keith I'm the President Trump said is that he'd been given a verbal assurance that North Korea would not return to nuclear or missile testing. If that holds were then in a period where there will be expiration of options that kind of process that's appropriate in diplomacy if it's broken than we fall right back into the very confrontational situation. We released your way on me. There's no reason to take Kim Jong own his word, but at the same time, it certainly that will be a test. And if for some reason, the green -ment of the verbal agreement holds that will be a very positive step forward. Well, we're going to have much more on the president's summit with North Korean dictator throughout the show, a member of the foreign relations committee Senator Chris coons will be our guest will also bring in the AP's Jonathan Lemaire live from Hanoi. He was one of the four US journalists who the Trump administration barred yesterday from? Covering President Trump's dinner with Kim Jong Hoon because he asked a question the White House didn't like to be clear he wasn't barred by the North Koreans or the Vietnamese he was barred by the Trump White House. But now the drama that played out on Capitol Hill yesterday with Trump's former lawyer Michael Cohen before the house oversight committee. Donny Deutsch is with us along with national affairs analyst for NBC news and MSNBC John Uyleman. He's the co host and executive producer of Showtime's circuits senior reporter at Vanity Fair and an NBC news and MSNBC contributor, Emily. Jane FOX's with us. She was there throughout the day yesterday and has been covering Michael Cohen since the very beginning. NBC news and MSNBC law analyst and editor in chief of law. Fair Benjamin Wittes joins us and former US attorney for the northern district develop Bama and an MSNBC contributor. Joyce. Vance really really guys quite a day yesterday. Day. We've got a perfect panel to talk today about with John Highland. The political impact the legal impact Benjamin. And also with Joyce. Also Danni has obviously known. Known coming for very long time. And Jane, FOX has been reporting on him as basically owned that story. We're going to get to them in a minute. I'm just curious though. What was your overall take on that remarkable just remarkable political theater? It also may have been day one in. In journey for Donald Trump his administration and the democratically controlled house. Well, it was an extraordinary day in America. I mean, if you sat there for seven hours glued to the TV. And you watched every question you watched every claim every allegation made by Michael Cohen. He couldn't help. But think man, we've never seen anything like this where you had someone that close to Donald Trump for that long. Who knows all the stories of Donald Trump's business dealings who knows all the stories of Donald Trump's personal life, spilling them out not just before oversight committee, but before the country before the American people and Joyce Vance. I beyond the sort of Tableau that with the American Tableau, we saw specific legal questions. What new information? Do you think Michael Cohen brought to the table yesterday that could be a problem for Donald Trump above and beyond? What we already knew says certainly nothing that was new to prosecutors. I think it's important to say that but Cullen was in a unique position over the years. To observe the president. And so it's the small details that show what Trump knew. And when he knew it, you know, he talks about the phone conversation that Trump has with Roger stone, and it's credible. Because of these little details he mentions there's a black telephone in front of the president that he puts on speakerphone the sort of details would expose Trump personally as opposed to the conversation. That's been going on so far about the people around him. And there was questions obviously from the beginning about Michael Cohen's credibility. He apologized near the beginning for lying to congress about when negotiations over the Trump Tower Moscow project ended and he also accused President Trump of indirectly telling him to lie. Mr. Trump did not directly tell me to light to congress. That's not how he operates. In conversations we had during the campaign at the same time. I was actively negotiating in Russia for him. He would look me in the eye and tell me there's no Russian business and then go on to lie to the American people by saying the same thing in his way, he was telling me to lie. You said. Quote, Mr. Trump did not directly tell me to lie to congress. That's not how he operates an quote. Can you explain how he does this? Sure. It would be no different. If I said, that's the nicest looking tie I've ever seen, isn't it? What are you gonna do? You're gonna fight with him answer is. No, so, yeah, it's the nicest looking tired I've ever seen. That's how he speaks. He doesn't give you questions. He doesn't give you orders. He speaks in code. And I understand the code because I've been around him for a decade at it's your oppression that others who worked for him understand the code is well in most people. Yes. Now, John Heilemann what was the overall for you? What was what was the headline from yesterday? And what's the political impact? Where you you had some extraordinary. Some extraordinary. Testimony out there. But yet you had the Republican party. And this seemed to be everybody's take away that I heard even from Republicans that you had the Republican party. Just completely disinterested and digging for truth. It was just a cover up operation. Well, yeah. Joe actually would expand on that in a certain way. But I will look I'll say this. There's there's no question that just the the extraordinarily kind of human drama involved here. This this discussion about Donald Trump and his legal and political woes has been going on as we all know for the last two plus years often, it takes place at a level of abstraction. We've all been given a lesson in in constitutional law in questions about criminal procedure and civil procedure the country's learned a lot over the last two years. But there is a kind of airless quality some of this discussion yesterday was not like that. And I think that's why part of the reason why the political impact of this potentially significant because it felt this is this is. I blood, sweat, and tears thing. You looked at Michael Cohen. They're part of the reason why the public is obsessed with him is because they'll recognize a certain every man quality in Cohen in his in his strengths and his many many weaknesses. The kind of Shleifer who got got seduced and got them betrayed and now a seeking either retribution or or some kind of expiation of his sins all of its Shakespearean and just say a play out the way play yesterday, which is gripping. And it's the kind of thing that normal people can really understand the ways in which Cohen talked about Trump or the ways that people can relate to in a different way than a lot of the other conversations that revolve around these topics to your point about Republicans, and I will say this the no question, the Republicans behaved contemptible in many cases in terms of how they tried to make their case against Cohen. But I think the political thing that is most significant is the degree to which they made no effort, not just find the truth. They made no efforts to do that. But. They made no effort to try to discredit the facts that Michael Cohen push forward. They tried to discredit his character. But on the actual facts, the ones that have potential actual legal implications. They did nothing to try to discredit those facts. And so I think by abdicating Trump in that way, they left him exposed to a much greater degree than most people would have been dissipated. And and there may be with for all their sounding fury and all of their attacks on cone. There may have been a kind of implicit understanding on a lot of the Republicans that the reason that they couldn't take on on on the facts, and that they recognize exactly how bad those facts for Donald Trump. Yeah. You know, it was Jim Jordan yesterday practice. The James Carville look at the bird. Yesterday. We're talking about rod Rosenstein, he had all of this information dumped in front of him that would have been disturbing. Anybody should have been disturbing to anybody that sat on an oversight committee, regardless of their party, and yet they just continued rambling on, but nobody nobody on either side of the aisle yesterday defended Donald Trump for attacked co and they attacked his credibility, but they could not defend Donald Trump against those charges because they know Donald Trump by now, and here's Chris Christie after the hearings on that point talking about how damning it is for Trump. There isn't been one Republican yet who's juror tried to defend the president on the substance. And that's something that should be concerning to the White House. Why are no Republican standing up and defending the president on the substance? And and that's either failure of those Republicans on the hill or failure of the White House to have a unified strategy with them. They knew what was coming with Michael Cohen. And so I think it's going to as the day goes on it's going to get tired of hearing the attacks on Koa credibility. He's not a credible witness. But he does up cooperation on certain things. Where's the defense of the president? Notifies for the president. And my gosh. It just has to be said, then there was no coordination on the Republican side. It was a terrible terrible hearing from the gang that couldn't shoot straight. These are the people that brought you the been Ghazi hearings year after year after year and actually. I just I've never seen a hearing where people repeated themselves so much ask the same questions. They asked Michael Cohen thinking, it was a gut a moment. So did you do you wanna book deal? I don't have a book deal. Would you like a book deal? Yeah. Yeah. A lot of movie hill. Well, yeah, they movie deal too. You would. Well, why is your why is your law? You're not being paid. Because he thinks this is important. No more questions. It was rough. It was a horrible day been with us. And we've talked about the legal implications. We've talked about the political implications. But if you're chief counsel for Elijah Cummings, what did you learn yesterday? And what this lists. Are you now developing for a series of hearings that not only Democrats are going to want to see? But Americans are going to wanna see. Yeah. Yes. I think the single most important thing, and you just set it that you developed was a witness list. You know, one of the points whenever you're doing a major investigative hearing is whether that hearing gives you an agenda for the next hearing. And in this case, they really quite effectively got Michael Cohen. Then I think he was very cooperative in this to identify a name associated an additional name associated with a great many of the lines of inquiry that that he described a great many of the allegations that he made he would tell sort of who else was in the room who else was involved, and the result is that they come away with a very long list of people some of whom you would expect like Alan Weisselberg of the Trump organization and David Packer. Am I but the list gets pretty long and pretty granular of people that the committee will want to approach and hear from next. And so as I was listening over the course of the day. I was just struck. By how many other hearings this committee could map out just based on ten on Collins testimony alone. And the final thing about that. Of course, is that this hearing is only presumably a shadow of the story that Michael Cohen actually could tell because of course, he spent. Tuesday the day before the hearing in a day-long closed session of the Senate intelligence committee. He's going to spend today in a closed session with the house intelligence committee. And so what was sandwiched in between public yesterday was only the part of his story that is ripe to be told in public. And so I think if you put those those two things together, you really do have a rich terrain for future investigative hearings. Yeah. And you got a sense of the list as referred to by congresswoman Alexandria, cassia Cortez. Take a listen. To your knowledge to the president ever provide inflated assets to an insurance company. Yes. Who else knows that the president? Did this Allen Weisselberg Ron Liebman, and Matthew calamari, and where were the committee? Find more information on this. Do you think we need to review his financial statements and his tax returns in order to compare them? Just need funded at the Trump org. Wow. Okay. And we'll Jane FOX you've been covering Michael Cohen, you know, him. Well, I I saw you as he was leaving the hearing room and feel like I was reading on your face. What you were following was not just the story, the facts and the political implications, but also the human drama playing out. This was a big day for him and possibly for his family. Sure. It was something that he had been preparing for looking forward to something that had been weighing on him and his family for many weeks. I think that there was a it was complicated for him in some ways he wanted to get there to tell his story to the American people. And in some ways, he knew he was going to be facing hours and hours and hours of people questioning his credibility and bringing up things that we're sensitive to his family. So there is the human side of it. But what was remarkable to me as someone who has covered him for more than a year and a half? Now seeing the turn. Iron when I first sat down with him firm. And for an interview he told me it would take a bullet for the president. And yesterday he seemed to be the one firing a little bit. And it was just a stunning change. And there were several things that really stuck out to me that I thought were legally consequential politically consequential and personally consequential seeing the checks presented on slides in that room where the president had signed a check from the Oval Office, or at least while he was in office seeing check with Donald Trump junior's name on it having the actual documented evidence in front of you was sort of spectacular to see Russian collusion Trump Tower Moscow meeting. These are things that are a little bit nebulous, but it's not really hard to connect the dots between signature on a check and a payment that is potentially illegal. And so those were were really moving moments. And I also thought that one woman that stood out to me was that Cohen is continuing to actively participate. In a number of ongoing investigations in the southern district of New York that had to strike fear in the hearts of the Trump administration that Trump organization and the Trump family. Yeah. And Willie was stunning to me. I mean, he presented himself fairly humbly. John heldman did a great description of sort of this guy that everybody saw Michael Cohen presenting himself to Republicans some of them leering at him for going to jail making fun of him poking at them bullying him, it just felt flat and some of the line of questions Joseph. They repeated the book deal thing again and again. Yeah, the one congressman Higgins from Louisiana yelling at Michael Cohen. What about the boxes in your office? He said, well, they took them in the raid. And they've been returned since why haven't you turned over the boxes because they were seized in a raid. And now they've been returned to Joe's pointed they did not rehearse. They didn't have their ducks in a row they didn't have their questions coordinated clearly, and I think that helped Michael Cohen Don a year in the position of having. Actually spoken after the fact to Michael Cohen that was only day too, by the way of three days for him in the barrel taking these questions what surprised him. How did he feel coming out of the hearing yesterday? I obviously he was exhausted. And I said, how do you think he did? And he goes, I'm really happy. I said, well, what would you change because it wouldn't change anything to me yesterday? Was a simple game. It was was Michael Cohen, not did you like them. Not was he going to be credible. And to me where they want to get Michael won a game stunningly is two points. One to Emily's point. If it comes down to a he said, she said Trump, do you believe Trump? Do you believe calling all along one guy said he gave me told me to give the payments? He paid me. Trump said, no. And then you had the evidence. But the other thing from behaviors point of view is it was a very very interesting to me what gave him his credibility is where he exonerated Trump. You know, a few of the moments where they said for instance, there's rumors of an elevator tape of Trump hitting. Danica it which to me would be one of the most horrific things you can he'll be very easy to say. I've heard about that tape. I haven't seen it not only. Did you say there's no such tape. He went wants to said, Mr. Trump would never strike. Mrs Trump Saint thing with the with the p tape where it was very easy to kind of help, it does not exist. Same thing. Do you have direct knowledge of collusion? No. I don't. So those are the things that give all his accusations the credibility, and to me also, and I also have to give credit, and you know, I'm very critical. I think she's extremely dangerous to the Democratic Party. I think she really had a mission. And she knows this ends up in the NY and her line of questioning about taxes about inflation of assets about insurance fraud is the one that's going to obviously invite what way and this is in. This was the opening act in Joe I've said this ad nauseam. This ends up in the southern district. This ends up with a Rico charge racketeering influence corruption organization act where the wheel the pieces start to fall a play. So I thought it was a great day. Kona? There was a great day for America. It was a stunningly poor for the Republicans. You were. I mean you've been saying for quite some time. Donnie that you've been talking to Michael privately, and you had been telling him. Hey, listen, you really can do your country a great service. I remember us talking about this in real time. I personally never believed that he would do it that he would move from being Trump lackey to somebody that would go out and tell the truth about all he saw. But you kept saying that you thought he might do it. And in fact, he did so what were your personal feelings just your personal feelings? And by the way, people bloggers that are watching you're allowed to talk about your personal feelings steel, Donny Deutsch, what were your personal feelings about your longtime friend, and by the way, a guy who is still your friend when he was working for Donald Trump. Yeah, I'm glad you asked me to that. But it was obviously, it was already personal for me for the last couple of years, obviously been a stench stetch escorts defender, Michael esta, which which is this. Challenge since I was sitting right next to him stab difference, which was obviously very challenging for me because constantly people. You know, how can you defend in looking because the images out there? I. Michael cone pre. Scandal. If you will all you saw was this barking guy in this bellicose guy, and frankly, likable guy, and what I watched over the last couple of years personally, very pushy moments in seeing him in tears and seeing his family and understanding that this was a guy who says, look he did bad things. He was a guy who got in the Trump orb, and all of a sudden have the Trump lapel pin gave him a certain power certain of Patino of of strength. And obviously did the the very bad things that he didn't he's paying for it. But I always did say, and this was put it out there. And why would a decent man? I think that's what the camera doesn't lie. I think what people saw yesterday. I think what they were surprised about. And maybe he didn't love Michael Cohen after you say, okay. Here's the guys lawyer got caught up in it. His life has been destroyed and he's trying to save himself his family do the right thing. And for me. I actually was very proud of him. That's the best way. I could say I was I was really proud of this guy up there because he he's had the world against him. We're gonna keep talking about this. Sneak obviously throughout the morning. But boy, we'd be remiss if we didn't talk about the man who I thought brought some of the most dramatic moments just with his words and his leadership, and that was Elijah Cummings who who's closing statement was one of the most moving things, I think I've seen come out of congress in a very very long time labor prying. We'll talk about that everyone. Stay with us have much more on yesterday's hearing, including the impressive role played by congressman Elijah Cummings. I'm responsible for your silliness. Because I did the same thing that you're doing now for ten years. I'd protected Mr. Trump for ten years, and the fact that you pull up a news article that has no value to it. And you wanna use that as the premise for discrediting mate that I'm not the person that people called at three o'clock in the morning would make you inaccurate in actuality would make you a liar, which puts you into the same position that I am in. And I can only warn people. The more people that follow Mr. Trump as Idid blindly are going to suffer the same consequences that I'm suffering. While you know, criminal enterprise is rarely operate in plain view, straw minner setup. Money's launder conspiracies thrive in shadow and silence. But that sort of discretion has never been this President Trump card instead is confessions are blurted out loud to Lester Holt on nightly news or Russian Foreign Minister in the White House while meeting with Russian diplomats yesterday. Michael Cohen explained how Donald Trump and his allies even sent messages to co-conspirators over public airwaves. All of this happened is Republican members of the house oversight committee expose themselves in plain sight in plain sight as a political party whose goal whose purpose, and whose central organizing principle is Pete Wehner said is did cover up for the legal and immoral misdeeds of Donald J Trump. You know, that sorted side would of been a lot more shocking. The you and me, but for the fact that the moral collapse of Abraham Lincoln's party began in earnest the day, Donald Trump is nominated almost three years ago. Remember Paul Ryan called him a racist? One day endorsing the next. Wow. What a long strange trip it's been from my once proud Republican party yesterday wasn't a turning point though. Unfortunately for Republicans. It was just another Sewri self-defeating step toward political oblivion with GOP members crassly covering up for a commander in chief who is unworthy of their loyalty, and they did it shamelessly in plain sight for all the world to say and Joyce Vance. I mean talk about how you had Republicans on that committee. So either unaware or uncaring of the fact that potential crimes and misdemeanors that the president may have committed. We're being brought up before them. And none of them. Saw do go down those lines of inquiry. You know, defense lawyers always liked to say when the facts are on your side pound the facts when the laws on your side pound the law when neither is on your side pound the table and Republicans yesterday certainly did not pan the fats. I think that that was very telling had they tried to get into it with Cohen over some of these details, I think that there was the risk that they could have gotten the president into even more hot water. They did not know what they were walking into or or where the mortar shells were going to begin blowing up. And so perhaps this bad strategy of theirs was the best strategy that they have given that they were ultimately trying to protect the president who at this point is likely. Unpredictable. Joe imagine being one of the Republicans on that panel and the oversight committee having a witness sitting across the table from you and saying the followings the president of the United States. It's the current president United States had an affair with a porn star. He directed me to make payments, and here are the personal checks. That shows how he reimbursed me for those payments to make sure he got elected in the weeks before the presidential campaign and not having questions about that not following up about that. That would be the biggest scandal in the history of presidential scandals. But there's not a single follow up question about that fact, it's astonishing. I mean, I know what their objective was in that room, which was to undermine the credibility of Michael Cohen. And they tried to do that with every question. But my God, do you have no curiosity about some of the questions that Cohen raised? Why exactly? And it wasn't just that check. But that checks great place to start. How about a check signed by Donald Trump junior. What are the implications for that? What did you know, Mr. Cohen about Donald Trump junior's involvement in this scheme? Did you talk to him about it personally there there were so many different? Places that they could have gone and been with us. First of all, I think you have to conclude that they just didn't give a damn they've stopped carrying about Donald Trump, and whether he committed illegal acts or not, but Secondly, even if they had I'm sure they were worried that if they started asking questions they would step into a legal minefield and may not like the answers that Michael Cohen delivered. Right. I think look I think there was an element of strategy in this enjoy saluted to it before. Which is they it is a very hard argument to make that some of the facts that Michael Cohen is alleging are untrue because he walks in with a bunch of documents that that corroborate them. And by the way, a lot of the facts that he's describing are things that are to one degree or another publicly acknowledged like, for example, that there was this repayment scheme. You know that stretched into the course of of Trump's presidency. So it's very hard to talk about the facts. And so what you have left is the ability to yell at Michael Cohen and to emphasize that you know, he he has lied in the past. Yeah. Which of course, is a troubling little episode argument in and of itself because you're basically saying exactly what he walks in the door saying I mean, he he walks in saying I've lied before. I'm here to correct the record. And you say you lied, and he's like, yeah. Right. I lied. I just pled guilty to lying. And so you're actually repeating on a thing that he has walked in the door saying from the beginning, it ends up being a very ineffective argument over the course of six or seven hours and let Jane FOX it was it was. Credible in some ways when the Republicans seem to be not interested in the the evidence, and the facts and things that could lead them to truth, and they constantly constantly accused. Michael Cohen of what he has done in what he admits to do and what he's going to jail for and that's lying. And of course, we have a president who lies six seven eight times a day who was tweeting about Michael Cohen that morning and didn't tell the truth who is still been tweeting over the past twenty four hours about Michael Cohen from Vietnam during North Korea summit, it is just sort of an incredible backdrop for these Republicans to really stand up for this president and somewhat subtly protect him during this hearing. And yet I thought one of the most incredible moments was Michael Cohen saying I lied for him for ten years. I followed him blindly. And and that's what I see happening here. Now with these him pointing? Out that I was any your shoes, and it leaves to degree consequences was one of those moments where you kind of felt an ex HALE in the room the hypocrisy was on full display yesterday. And it was brought up several times in the hearing that the thousands of times that that the president has lied since. He's taken office came up a number of times what I thought was an effective strategy for Cohen was every single time. The issue of his credibility was raised. He owned it. He said, you're right. I did lie, and I'm going to jail paying the ultimate price for it. So let's just take that off the table. And what really stuck out to me was he made the point of saying this is why I brought the evidence to this hearing. This is why brought all of these documents. Because I understand if you don't believe me every reason not to believe, right? You don't have to believe me because here are the checks. Here are the financial statements. Here are the letters from the president. So think whatever you want about my credibility. But. These documents are not going to lie. Yeah. The the question is did the president committed crime, and a logical Cummings was that s that after the hearing yesterday, and by the way, how incredible that that? You did have Republican. They don't give a damn when Donald Trump lie sixty five hundred times, or however, many times the fact checkers of shown he has lied, and it's obvious lies. I mean, people try to undermine the fact checkers, they make fools of themselves. Because there are so many lies. You can just put one tweet up in front of it. And it's terrible allies are constant and these Republicans so shocked that Michael Cohen may have lied. I it's it's it's outrageous. But I'll tell you what else is outrageous me get they even lied. Jim Jordan wide repeatedly about the chairman about Elijah Cummings saying this is the first hearing you've had Elisa thundered back at the end. Yes, he daily I mean don't want. I mean, I understand these guys see Donald Trump lying every day. And they think they can get away with it. But can you imagine Jim Jordan being stupid enough to lie in front of Elijah Cummings repeatedly saying this is the first hearing we've had all year as if that matters pretty? Strong. I hearing as far as I'm concerned. But why would he lie about that? When Elijah's had several hearings. Yeah. Lodge in is closing statement. He waited till the end to remind his Republican colleagues on the panel that they've had a couple of other hearings before this one. And this wasn't the way they were starting their session. Joyce I want to ask you before we let you go about the places where there's not documentary evidence. For Michael Cohen. I'm talking about the Trump Tower meeting where he claimed he overheard a conversation between Don junior and Donald Trump Donald Trump, effectively go ahead with the meeting to get dirt on Hillary Clinton. I'm also talking about the WikiLeaks dump and that he says he spoke he overheard President Trump dot then Donald Trump on the phone on speaker phone with Roger stone. What are you as a prosecutor do with that? When there isn't a big check that he can wave at that table as a prosecutor you liked to corroborate every piece of testimony that a jury or an or a different decision making body will here. But with Michael Cohen, that's even more important than with the witness who hasn't been. Convicted of lying under oath. So prosecutors have this opening and you hear it actually in Cohen's testimony. There is every opportunity to corroborate him. When the president denies that. He knows about WikiLeaks. And we now hear Coen's testimony about the conversation between the president and Roger stone. It will be interesting to go back and put that on the timeline of known public statements that the president made to look at opportunities. The president secretary might have had to be in the room to hear the corroborate see if their phone records that corroborate. So that's what prosecutors do in each of these instances Bill methodically look for every type of evidence or other witness testimony that might be available to confirm Coen's test. One's version of events is just one piece perhaps of what Bob Muller knows about the Trump Tower. I think it's important to say that Cohen is not a standalone in any prosecution. He might be a piece of a case he is not the case. All right choice fans Benjamin Wynn. Does an Emily, Jane, FOX. Thank you all for being on this morning. Incredible incredible day morning. Joe family Willie Geist here. If you like the long deep dive conversations on morning Joe every day. I think you will love my Sunday sit down podcast every week. A new extended unedited interview with another big star with names from Bill Murray. Jerry Seinfeld, and Kevin Hart to China Garton. Claire Foy me lacunas? 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