The Crashed Vikram Lander - Found
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So we we appreciate that kind of feedback you can send height miles well, two frayed. Other than that in a, we do like to hear from you in whatever form now today Fred we're going to find a space probe one that was due to land on the moon in September last year but it landed a bit too heavily and became what is. Officially, known as wreckage. but it looks like they've found This particular private was launched by India. Will learn about that, and this is a rather interesting story about how some of the rivers on Mars may have formed under shades of is suggesting that Mars had its iron is perhaps will also be looking at some audience questions. One about I kind of like this question about the Hubble Space Telescope how it's able to take such. Brilliant images of things that are light years away. And yet y kind of taken. US close up of Pluto. That's a really good question and we're guided talk about long-haul Spice Travel and whether or not going from one place to another could be even if you could travel need a spate of lot, could the journey take longer because of the expansion of the universe somebody's thinking way outside the box it wasn't May. So we'll get to all of that but I fred. Let's look at the Chandra, yon one lunar orbiter and the. Unfortunate demise of the land in September last year. Yeah. That's right. So a mission from the Indian space. Agency. is rife. I remember rightly. The. Yan Mission was designed to Land Rover on the surface of the moon not far from the South Pole. But. The I. Think you covered this at the time Andrew. That basically they the Indian Space Agency lost contact with the with with the spacecraft. Around about the time of touchdown, this was that basically crush on the surface and all it was was upon of wreckage. However, there is a somebody who's described as techy. which I think he's an engineer actually in China his name is Shanmugam Muga Super Soubra Magnon. An, clearly amateur space enthusiast. Of Great, challenge I have to say because he. used. A NASA. Lunar reconnaissance orbiter images. Were made in November last year. To identify the day bree of the land that carried the rover and just to put put put a couple of other names in. The Landau was called Vikram it was named after one of the founding. The actual founding scientists of the Indian Space Agency. And the rover was called program and I'm not sure what those names mean. I think that sounds script but that's Beyond our remitted the moment. So Shanmugam Soubra Magnon, the the man who was looking at these images he he identified. What he took to be daybreak from the Vikram. Land. From these lunar reconnaissance orbiter images that were released last year and that yeah I think I think we probably covered as well trained. In a wide ranging talks. However. There were more lunar reconnaissance orbiter images of this region. Released I. Think it was in January. Yes. January that they were taken on January the fourth but made public in May. And it because of changing light conditions and remember these a near the South Pole of the moon whether whether sun angle is very shallow. Because of the changing light conditions, the January images revealed much more detail. Than the November images. So. Shanmugam has had a good look at these, and now believes that what he's seeing is that a in fact, the lander made a soft landing. What he what he says is going by the January fourth images which were made public in May I think prog Yom maybe intact and. Was the was the rover. I think it may be intact. The leaders rolled out a few meters from the Landa. We we need to know how the rover may have moved I. Hope Israel is able to confirm this. So. He's. Pulled over these images and done some very clever analysis i. think he's done. Some you know is used algorithms that that tease out the detail in these images. An almost looks as though the thing made. A A soft landing, and the speculation is that the space craft itself sent the command for the rover. To. Essentially to to be deployed from the lander. So that the rover in the land communicating with each other autonomously, but they'd already lost communication with the ground station back here on earth. So nobody knew about the. It's A. We we just naturally believe that something catastrophic happened the thing. Crashed or landed too heavily to be functional, and that's been the belief up until now that's right. Yeah. It's called echoes Andrew of of the the Beagle two story which you'll remember was launched from. British spacecraft a British lander on Mars was launched deployed from. The Mars Express spacecraft a European spacecraft. That deployed Beagle two which to the surface. Landed and was never well, it was never heard of again basically. For about twelve years. And everybody was lying in millions of pieces on the surface of Mars until maverick. Came along with it's high-rise Camera I resolution camera. An could see an image of this thing sitting on the surface almost fully deployed of the solar panels had not. Folded back and so it was it's antenna was enabled to send signals back to Earth to say I'm here so. On yes him once again, a near miss a near, Miss Event. Don't exist. A big catastrophic era. It can be as simple as lucky. Say a solar panel, just not quite getting where it needs to get or. Could even be loosed at it could be anything it could be so Mina, and it could completely ruin a multi-million dollar project. That's right so It's I. Think this is really interesting. So kind of forensic science. Detective work done the event. It seems unlikely that the Space Agency will be able to wake up a the victim lander to get communications. Apparently, they tried many many times. But well, own guts radio so Is Wonderful. Radio is it can't physically move something. Exact. You know if if If it's the link between the earth and the. Land of that he's broken and it sounds as though that that said, it does matter how well the rest of it's working he'd never going to know what's happening. But very interesting that they may have come within a whisker of success with the Chandra to. Yeah that probably went Mike the the government feel much better about the investment in which was many millions of dollars. was millions of dollars, but it's cheaper not Indian. Mission was one of the cheapest. Space missions to to another in another world has ever been done. They managed to do it and what we're going to be their goal what would I hoping to achieve? So it was a Rosa rather like the to two rover this currently the Chinese road with its on the on the far side of the moon. Investigating Cameras I. Think he had a analytical equipment to to sense. The makeup of the rocks that it was on I'm not sure whether it had ground penetrating radar because that's one of the really interesting aspects of of the Chinese missions that they've got ground penetrating radar on board their rovers I'm not sure whether whether the Vikram rover had that. Okay. So again, the river was programmed, Vikram was the Landa I'm getting my. Eating my. Vehicles mixed up here. That's okay. You getting your curried sausage sausages mixed up with you chicken Tikka that what's happening but I will try again. Do you expect that the Indian Spice Agency will matt another mission or I? Think it's an inevitable that they will. I think that probably lot work going on behind the scenes in India and in space. That this space research agency they. That, probably. I don't really know. Any contact side but it probably working a reduced rate as most of us are because of covid nineteen but there is a very ambitious and very efficient space agency with with big? Ambitions. So I'm sure we'll hear more Andrew. Yeah I think it's great that more and more countries getting involved in space exploration because it can only make it better and better into the future and you know if somewhere along the line there I'm more and more collaborations better still the SARS concerned I, think that's a good thing. Indeed by agree integrity. Will Competition never heard anybody did bus right collaborations great to you. Know we we see that in in the International Space Station but. Many many nations cooperating. Okay all right. Well, I've found it but unfortunately they. Mike move which is. Very very sad and I suppose one day someone might walk around there and have a look and go. I still think. Plug back in an oh well I just. Suppose, you're listening to the space nuts podcast with Andrew Dunkley and Fred Watson. Free. Space Nuts as always I'd like to say hello to everybody who supports us through whatever social media platform you prefer, and of course, course many many of you listen to us through youtube and we appreciate that. So if you'd like to be a youtube subscribe at, just do a search for space podcast in your youtube search engine and subscribe there you can catch up on all the episodes I. Think I've said before all you have to do is hit play and it'll just run the whole damn lot of them back to back it can listen to all two hundred and four day. 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Yes. Indeed. He couldn't get a word in when mandate is around but now are now he's He's taken center stage. Now, let's get on with it Fred. We're going to go back to MAS. This is fascinating plice and We do know that it had oceans and rivers and all sorts of stuff that we know and love on our own planet But now it looks like it might have had an ice age in that. Some of these river valleys may have been formed under sheets of ice that is a very interesting theory may be more on a theory. And it could be a quite revolutionary Andrew because. What this is offering A. Completely, new idea is the idea that no actually Mars wasn't woman wet three point eight billion years ago because that's the current thinking that Meyers. Rivers, flowing and. An, very similar climate to the earth, and that comes from The geological evidence has been gathered both by being spacecraft and spacecraft on the Martian surface. This is a new idea that. Actually puts a slightly different light on what we understand. Mars might be like and it comes from researchers at the University of British Columbia in Canada. And You know essentially challenges our view of what Mars might have been like. Three point four billion years ago. I'm what the scientists have done They have looked at What happens beneath the ice sheets of actually places the in the sock to in fact, they've particularly concentrated on the place called Devon. Island. I'm not sure exactly why that is but I suspect it's northern Canada there is an ice sheet covering that landscape and beneath that landscape, there are drainage channels. So the pressure of the ice essentially melts the water underneath which forms channels in the Rock and what the scientists of dumb is they've made algorithms that essentially. The. Judgments to the shape and size. Of these networks have volleys which have which we find on Mars, and they've applied this to ten thousand Martian valleys than that new algorithm. and. A look to how that shape and dimensions compare. Excuse me with with channels on the earth that are known to have formed on the ice sheets. And Okay I'm so one of the one of the authors his he's a quote from him. Mark Jellinek, who's a professor in? University of British Columbia's Department of Earth Ocean atmospheric scientists he says. These results of the first evidence for extensive subglacial erosion driven by channel Channelize meltwater drainage beneath as ancient sheets on Mars. The findings demonstrate that only a fraction of valley networks match patterns typical of surface water erosion, which is in marked contrast to the conventional view. Using the go mythology of Mazda surface the shape of Mazar surface to rigorously reconstruct the character evolution of the planet in a statistically mean meaningful way is frankly revolutionary. So what he's saying is that most of Moses Valleys were formed not by rivers running you know. Essentially equilibrium with an atmosphere but by. Melt water underneath glacial ice sheets, and that is a completely new picture of the way Mars might have. Might have full dis. It's river valley networks. The still I think room for the planet has had a liquid water ocean because we find. There are there are features on Mars which Really characteristic of coastal coastal erosion. So I don't think the idea of. Having some stage being warm and wet has been thrown out entirely. But what these guys are saying is that most of the valleys we see on ause may well have been formed underneath I. Sheet. So exactly as you said, a nice age on Mars. The might well have been the time when most of those ballots with formed. Excuse me under the Turtle Frog in the throat again. It's it's. A. It's really very interesting piece of work, but there is a surprise to it as well. That is okay comment. If he did have you know these drainage valley networks underneath ice sheets. They claim that environment would actually support better survival conditions for possible life on Las. So you've gotta shake device and it's giving you more protection from things like solar radiation and it makes the underlying water more stable the perhaps it would be if it was open to the atmosphere. So. This suggestion is that we shouldn't be disbanded about this. This might have been a place where Martian life would have thrived D- rather than you know being open. Surface environment to all the all the powers some throws at the planet. So a really interesting new set of dead. I was wondering about that because I was thinking well, these stories come at just a week after they've learned day. Demise from NASA to look for life in Riverdale, turn that now we now go great. Not Great. What are we gonNA. Do now we count and It might actually be better. A more likely scenario. Yes. So that river I mean I don't know enough about the mechanics of glacial drainage but it's possible that that River Delta might been under Nice Sheet. We know that Revuelta is made by water flowing into Jesuit Crater, which is whether spacecraft setting full perseverance and I. Think it may well be Andrew that when perseverance gets to work. Early next year on the surface of Mars it might actually be able to give an answer to this question to to say, yes, we've got definitive evidence that these channels were full by subglacial is I don't know whether the the seven instruments onboard. That spacecraft whether that whether they're able to do that but it is possible that we might set get clues about. The real nature of what these flows water flows were were doing on those. And and obviously, the way water forge is out. It's rivers and valleys under is is very different from the standard erosion that we know from exposed where the situations of the possibly the white quoted Yep. That's right. I mean there are some you know the canyons on laws which you probably the. Coast by water flow with I formed under. Sweet. The really interesting questions it sound kind of you know opened up probably can of worms really but it's provided a new picture of what ancient models might have looked line. Yes indeed well, even ancient earth was very different to what way experiencing our you look at. One of the ICS places on the planet. ANTACTICA and it's believed that at one stage it was tropical. Yes. It was but at one stage, there was a you know they did go through a period when is called snowball earth period when it was essentially iced up completely. And it's all to do with the way. The atmosphere behaves really interesting stuff. Indeed well. Stands to reason that it's probably been the case on Mars as well and Hopefully, some of these questions will be answered by a the the three missions that are headed that way, and we'll start to get answers into next year. and. You're listening to the space that's podcast Andrew. Dunkley and of course Professor Fred Watson. Space nuts thanks to our patrons who have been supporting the space and that's podcast. Financially, we appreciate whatever willing to put into the program. So thank you for that whether you do three patriots, dot com or super cast it's up to you some prefer one over the other and vice versa. It doesn't matter. But if you would like to sign up to be a patron, you can find all the details on our website space nuts podcast dot com that's space nuts podcast dot com. That's our official URL now and go to night from someone the other day decided that will be becoming a patron. Of course, as a patron, you get bonus material and we'll be adding more material in the next a little while to for our patrons a plus you get a free edition commercial free edition and you get it ahead of. Everybody else basically, we would give you an early release version of spice nuts So thanks again to our patrons for supporting us You can put in as much or as little as you like, but as I always say, it's not mandatory. You do not have to it is a voluntary situation. So well, we appreciate your support. Either way now, Fred, let's get on to some questions and this one comes from his accuracy. Sta. High Boys loved the PODCAST. So much is question. He's from a telescope perspective hacking, the Hubble capture such amazing deep-space magnificent images yet not focused on local planets. In detail I would think from a Li- person's perspective Hubble could image Pluto. In great detail. But this is not the case. Will the James Webb telescope be able to detail local images that is a really interesting. Question and one I must confess I never thought ask but it It makes perfect sense to think that something capable of taking crystal clear images of things that are light years away would be able to do an even better job of something that's light hours away and and indeed it does So the best images we have apart from one stake in spacecraft of. Of. The of the planets are have all come from the Hubble telescope. The. In fact, the Hubble published a couple of weeks ago I. Think it was some stunning images of Santa than the data how in the? founding. So. The the issue here is that they dig spice images you looking at things whose dimensions a measured in in light is. Enormous. Enormous. Distances. When when you looking at the planet she looking at smaller things, Mola distances but you can still the eight still resolves the same detail the. We measure the what we call the resolution of telescopes mount of detail can CONC-. We measure it in terms of arc seconds. The. One ARC second being one, three, thousand, six, hundred, eighty degree I can't remember off the top of my head. What the resolution of the Hubble telescope is, but it's in the region of a tenth of a second, probably rather better than that. Fighting, he might be more like hundreds of an second dot sort of Dato. And so it doesn't matter whether you're looking at something Niro. You still see that Angela detail on it. So small objects relatively nearby. Give up their secrets in the same way that large OJ alone wail do. Now. Found, it says it's about one twentieth of an ox second. Okay. So Five yet thank you for checking that. Typically on a on a on a good ground based telescopes. You would be looking at a resolution of not much better. The second unless use this technique cold adaptive optics She cancels out the turbulence of the atmosphere and the big new telescopes will use that. And, in fact, some of the these. The the big new generation of extremely large telescopes the ground by swarms, they will actually be the Hubble in terms of resolution It'd be better because they're bigger telescope. So a big Amirah in a telescope in increases, your resolution but of course, against that, you've got the atmosphere. But so on the grounds telescope, you'd need to use the the adaptive optics technique. This is all something we'll be seeing within the next decade with European extremely large telescope and the TM thirty meter telescope and the giant Magellan telescope the three. We'll see exquisite imaging comparable with the Hubble. Zachary mentioned Pluto and you can actually see. The Good. Among towns used to using talk shows a how view of Pluto changed and the Hubble image of Pluto was basically about the pixels. Because Pluto is tiny wells smaller than our own moon. It's at five billion kilometers away That's why you don't see more than a few pixels with the Hubble telescope. That's why we're so crucial to get a spacecraft out of Pluto to find out what it was really like, and of course, that was new horizons. Back in Twenty fifteen, did that marvelous job of showing Pluto was really like Yeah. So it's not really a question of the distance. It's a question of the size of the object per the distance. Exactly. That's exactly what was like as big as Jupiter or something, we'd get much more stunning images of it through. We. That's right. That's precisely the case but his tiny. Well Joy Planet. Yes indeed. Okay. So you guys. Zachary, hopefully that answers your question, all he also asked. Know if we can expect. Even greater detail from James the James Webb Telescope and I imagine the answer is yes. Because it will be so much more advanced and so much more capable. Yeah. In fact, the secret is that it's bigger James Webbie's his six point five meter diameter telescope the. The Hubble is two point four Mehta's. So Dot Dumb kind of trickling of size in itself. Gives you an increase in. resolution. Against actually. Is that resolution? The finding that you can say actually deteriorates with wave length. So you going theme for Red You, actually lose resolution. Because visible light has a shorter wavelength infrared. So the will be a slightly negative effect because the James Webb Telescope is an infrared telescope, but we'll still see some fabulous images from it with detail, which will certainly be better than the Hubble. It won't be able to take a federal Pluto. You'll be a bit better but not not much different. No. I'm sure it's looking for bigger and better things why beyond s all the systems are? That would make sense. All right bath will use it for solar system observations. We'll learn things from. From the James Webb our own solar system, which will be great. Yes indeed, very much. So thank Zachary. Great Question. I gave us a chance to explain that situation. and. That's Gregory Peck Ringing Fred. Do. Let's move onto the next one from Jeffrey B., M. and High Jeffrey thanks for this question this is really thought provoking unlock this Jeff, is from Colorado If we gained the ability to accelerate a probe or generation ship or other spaceship two point two, five to a destination one hundred light years a guy a hundred light years away point two five of the spate of lot would the ship delayed by the amount of the expansion of the universe during its four hundred Ye trip? So let's Do Point two, five, the spate of lot it traveling relied is. And that would equate to a four hundred year journey but. Is. This something this influence that and slow you down such as the expansion of the universe. That's what Jeffrey is asking. That is a really interesting question because we talked about the expansion of the universe and that's happening faster than the speed of light. So is that going to create an increase in the distance between the objects you're traveling over the four hundred year timeframe? So He's a great question answer is yes it will. But at a microscopic level. Suicide. Factual. So. What Jeff postulating is yet you accelerate spacecraft to a quarter of the speed of light that's seventy, five, thousand kilometers per second, and if you do this four hundred year trip. To get to a destination one hundred light years away. That's. That's a pretty high speed. So. The expansion of the universe, which is kind of taking place. You know the space craft is moving through the universe. The Universe is expanding is that expansion going to increase the length of the journey? And the what you have to do is the calculation. So the expansion of the universe is measured by something called the Hubble constant. H. Which? At the present time because it's varied over the history of the universe, but at the present time h note is about seventy five kilometers per second per mega passback. Now, a Mega Park is three point two, six, million light years away. One is three point two, six light years. So a million six is three point two, six, million light years so the. Of the universe over a distance of three point, two, six, million light is. All the spate of expansion seventy, five kilometers per second. So a a one, hundred light year trip on that scale is completely irrelevant. It's the expansion of the universe. Takes place over a very, very large scales indeed. So you'd have to be going to other galaxies by means that we don't have at the moment in order to notice any difference in your journey time because of the expansion of the universe, I'm not sure whether it made that clear. What what what what it's saying is that over distances. Even, distances with are within our own galaxy. The expansion of the universe is irrelevant because it is so so slow. So there reason effect but it's minute. You'd have to be traveling a heck of a mega long wife for to stop become. So. You really only start seeing the effect of the expansion of the universe when you're looking at galaxies, millions of light years away then you can start to see. Rather than and his away. Yeah, and a heck of a make a long way is an official unit of measure by the way. As, ratified by the International Astronomical Union. Yes. Christmas party last year. where it would happen but it's definitely yes. Hopefully, that is solved your puzzle Jeffrey You can jump on ship at point two, five light spade and get to where you're going. One hundred is away in four hundred years and a very little bit. It's not going to make much difference. You'll. You'll still be able to catch you bus. Thanks the question was very enlightening. And thank you fred that this up for another week it was. Short and sweet sweet. We would go through a rather rapidly I'm not used to that. That's all right. We're going at the speed of. Light. Andrew so. quickly. Every didn't even have to allow the expansion of the universe. Thank you. Fred okay. We'll speak again soon. Thanks very much. Thanks. Ext Week our episode will be dedicated one, hundred percent, two questions. We'll have some more questions will also raise some at that have been sent the old fashioned way by carrier pigeon. And whatever means you find looks best for you. But if you do want to send us a question plays jump on our website. 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