#1189 - Alex Honnold


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Download the cash out for free in the app store or the Google play market use the promo code Joe Rogan, all one word, you get five bucks. Five bucks goes to an amazing 'cause. My guest today is probably a one of the most maybe the famous most famous free solo climber. Maybe the most famous climber alive. He has a movie out right now, it's called free solo. And he is a fantastic inspirational, wonderful young man, please give it up for Alex. The Joe Rogan experience. Podcast. It's been a long time. It has been with the guy like you. It's always nice to see you're still alive. Best to get tired of hearing shit. Like that. Do you get tired of the weirdness of like interviewing with people? And they're like, you know, you know, you could die. Is this scary? Yeah. Yeah. That's all right, though. I mean, the thing. Yeah. It's funny tearing with the film, we've been doing Cuny's every night, and you get the same questions from audience all the time and part of that is tiring. But then part of it like people ask some questions because they're obvious because everybody wants to know this. And I'm like I understand that one of the weirdest. Parts of the film is when they're showing all the guys who've died from free soloing and their though actually they didn't all die free soloing. Oh that that's actually one of the that's probably the only thing that I take slight issue with the film slightly hyperbolic is two of them died base jumping in one of them died rope jumping they all were free Solis. Which is kind of what the film is saying that they're offering Solis who have died, but they all. Died in the mountains doing mountain related extreme activities. That's an doesn't make the story is good. You got. That's like poetic license. Yeah. He got sneaky. Well, you know, they all were free Solis. But yeah. Yeah. That's not the same though. Yeah. No, exactly. I prefer the other way to look at. It is the no free SOLAS has ever died doing anything cutting edge. That's my favorite statistic. I mean, like no free Solis has ever died doing heart Solon like basically it free. A few free soldiers have died falling off easy, turn or just following sort of routine, or you know, I don't know just falling off the mountain, but none of them have ever died while doing something cutting edge something that had never been done before or something that was, you know, hardcore do you think that's because when you're doing something that's a little bit easier. You relax, I think that's probably part of it. But also, I think part of it is just a numbers thing you spent so much time doing stuff and so little time doing really hard stuff that you know, it's just districts. How much how important is it? When when you're free soloing to have that edge to be like really talk cognizant about how intense this is like if you got to calm, too, relaxed. No, I think that's I think that is kind of the concern for sure, and I I've noticed that in for myself anyway, and I try not to do very much easy Soling anymore because there is a certain complacency that over time, you know, you just do so much mileage on easy terrain. And then you're like this is so easy. This is so easy. And then you slip, and you die will, you know, you know, fighters look at things that way to like at a certain point in their life. They don't want easy fights because they need to get challenged. Otherwise, they won't train properly. And then they wound up losing to be yet. You should take seriously. Yeah. Well, the difference between a fighter say when they're not trained and not in camp and just their skill what their body can do without without going through a camp is probably only like seventy percent of what they are. Are when they actually go through everything with full intensity. Eight weirdos two times a day, you know, physical therapy massaged, visualization conditioning, all the all the things that make them who they are the day. They step into the cage like when you free solo. It's that's that's. Yeah. I mean, if you saw the film, that's all exactly level for abrasion that went into it. Do you take time off before a big free solo do like you the audio? No, it's the opposite is sort of ramping up to it. Right. But do you is there any concern that maybe you haven't given yourself enough for creative time like the for the day of nowhere? So for me. Anyway, it was always sort of the opposite. Because the real challenge of free selling is, the psychological side the mental side of it. It's not so much the physical like I don't necessarily have to physically perform the absolute limit of what I'm capable of. But I have to mentally perform at that level. And so and the mental side of it comes so much from confidence and feeling feeling prepared. And so I don't know. So when I when I free cell cap, I kind of knew that I wasn't actually like I'd probably already started to decline a little bit physically over the course of the season because the two months, and he somebody's just kind of grueling on her body. Like all the time. I spend going up and down on the wall in preparing. It's very very tiring. And so I. Kind of realized that I was starting to get sort of deeply United sort of a week away. From like having started a slump? I know I'm kind of pooped, but the thing is I knew that that because of all that preparation, you know, psychological as as good as I was ever going to be. So even if I was physically starting to be a little bit tired. It's like time to you know, it's kind of the the different curves you have to hit it right at the right moment. Now is your psychological preparation. Just you getting your mind into it. Or do you have specific techniques use or form of meditation or anything that you specifically concentrate on when you're visualizing success or no when it's not even necessarily visualizing successor is visualizing for me. It's visualizing the experience like sort of imagining what everything will feel like imagining what it like to place my foot on hold or what you know, grabbing like the sensations of it. And the exposure of it, you know, thinking through what it'll feel like with so much air around me. No rope. You know, just the basically to make sure that nothing is surprising. When I got there to my hands are sweating. Talking to. I'm not kidding feel that feel that. Fucking gross, right? As clammy. I realized like when I'm talking to you. I'm thinking about doing this. And my hands are fucking sweating gay started thinking about thousands or nearly. Start thinking about chalk and powder, and that shit like that God damn dude have you ever gone to a sports psychologist or have you ever like actively tried to coordinate a program for mental training or anything like that? No, not really. I mean. So with with reselling, oh cap, I found that I needed to create enough space for is not so much mental training, but but create enough empty time. So that I had so that I was able to sort of process so. I don't know. So stop Sean Email. I raised my social media like sort of freedom my life, and then actually my girlfriend left for sort of the week ahead of time. So that was just totally by myself in my van with nothing going on like no distractions in. So that's not exactly, you know, mental training. But it was giving myself the free time that I could just sit around and think about things, you know, I could process like it in my own terms in my own time. When was the last time, we talked how many years ago is that so long affiliate at least four right now is like six or seven I think so I think it was like two thousand twelve or something during that time how much has changed in your life in terms of the way, people perceive what you do in the amount of attention that you get. I would imagine that having that alone time now he has much harder. Yeah. Notoriously. It's it's funny. I mean, I've tried to not let my life get busy over time. But it just sort of naturally happens. I mean, we'll success. Yeah. Exactly. It's more. Yeah. Yeah. I'll be when I was breached out to reach out to you. Times. But I was like skies probably getting fucked with all the time like someone's probably always poking at you. And you're just trying to get a foothold like literally just trying to hold on. Now. I mean, I mean, I I appreciate all the opportunities that have now. And you know, I mean, I'm very happy with the way my life has changed over time. But certainly when I look back at ten or twelve years ago when I was just a single twenty year old man living in a car like I had nothing going on. You know, if if I had like one interview in a month, I'd be like was a big month for media, you know, and then now on the film tour. It's like completely outrageous totally other end of the spectrum. Now when you do in this film to win it one is a film, actually, come out, no films. Like, it's in theaters. So he can go see right now. But you can't get on. I tunes yet. Is that what it is? Yeah. So so so it did a month festival circuit in, you know, earlier in the end of the summer, and then it came out in theaters at the end of September. So right now, I think this weekend is white. It's released. It's like four hundred theaters all over the country. Wow. But and then in theory, it's through national geographic's. I think it'll be on television on the channel at some point. And then eventually it'll stream somewhere, I don't know is this strange all this attention. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. It's in some ways, it's a natural extension of all the the stuff. I've had over the years. You know, like having sixty minutes piece in many years ago was a bit of a flurry of attention. And so the kind of sort of prepared me in some ways, you know? But yeah, I mean, it's mean, well you've dealt with Israel life minutes. Yeah. But I'm asking like an interesting, but I feel like it comes with what I do. I'm in show business. You know, show biz this, you know, it's very you're. You're a climber. Yeah. And the most radical kind of climber. Well, free solo you think when I think of what you do. I think of quiet tension. Yeah. That's that's kinda fair it because it should be it should be sort of meditative, and relaxing and quiet. But then obviously, you're also sometimes straining your entire body. You know, like trying very hard physically. And yeah, why remember one of the things you said to me the last time we talked was that it's it's very mellow because if it ever gets intense. Something's gone horribly wrong. Yeah. No. It's it's I still feel exactly the same way. I mean, that's. Yeah. That's always the challenge is to keep it. Keep her relaxed a for a guy like you my perception of a guy like you who's that that person who's doing that activity, then to sort of juxtaposed that with this media tour type environment and dealing with all these people that that seems to me like it would be really annoying. I mean. Yeah, it's very different than my normal normal lifestyle. I guess, but the thing is, you know, it's sort of an adventure. It's an experience in its own way. I've been I've been kind of calling it a expedition film door because I've done a lot of expeditions in my life. Like last winter, I went to an article for a month, and and it's not exactly the type of climate. I normally do and I don't really like being cold. We sort of like, oh, it isn't once in a lifetime opportunity to go somewhere. You know, it was like going to Mars or something it was this totally outrageous experience, we're climbing big rock walls on in an article. You're just living on the glaciers, totally different. Totally crazy. He camped out on a glacier in a tent on a glacier from. When you do that. How how thick a pad do use thick and very very thick sleeping bag. Do you ever get warm? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In your Sima. It's a negative forty degrees sleeping bag, and it's pretty general. But but anyway, I mean, so that kind of experience, you know, in some ways, it's very comparable to a film to or on my this is going to be a once in a lifetime thing, you just embrace. It you go with it. You know, it's different than the way. You normally choose to live your life. But that kind of makes it interesting. It's something new why can imagine it'd be very interesting. Yeah. The Antarctica thing sounds like a trip. Yeah. Like were you traveling on a established corridor? It was no it's was some people had climbed in the region before. But but we actually did tons of. I two sons like roots in and summits that had never been climbed. Wow. Yeah. It's pretty cool. Now when you do something like that, do you map it out in advance? Like, I mean, well, not really because I mean, they're photos of of the formations and people like I said climbed some of them some Norwegian said sort of pioneered area and written a book about it. But but then it's not until you get there that you can really decide what you're going to climb and how it looks. I mean, ultimately you have to look at the rock and see this climate goal. And so you basically just have to ski up, and then touch it and see what you can do in the climate. You ski up we acted. You're living on a glacier ski everywhere. Wow. Cool. I I did I did a month wearing only ski boots or climate shoes. Wow. Or my bedroom? Slippers around camp. Would you feel like us, actually? At the end. We're in really thick socks. And then keeping everything as warm as possible. But but yeah, I mean worrying climate Jews in an pretty chilly. Yeah. Actually, there's a film about that coming out in a couple of weeks. I think as part of the real rock, dear. It's like a big climbing film festival thing or film tour that sort of shows are on the world. But so it's like a forty minute short. But thirty minutes, you're I'm actually I haven't seen any. But those shoes that you wear on a normal climb are very flexible or those loss tvos that what the area they're very the almost looked like a sock with like a rubber bottom to it. We could really kinda grip. It depends. So some or super soft like that it depends on what you're trying to climb that some are really rigid that you can step on a really small holds. And it supports your foot. So like what I was wearing free soloing. I'll cap is quite rigid. Actually, it's like a board like a platform. So that you can put just the tip toe on something really small on your fullest, stay flat Mollica mountaineering type of boot. Yeah. Kind of but still also very precise because the mountaineering boot you think clunky in big right climbing shoes like a ballet separate like precise in tight. But then also. Sometimes. Yeah. And then also, I don't know, you know, when you're climbing cracks you put your foot into the crack many target sideways to lock it into place. And so the stiffer the the shoe is the Morgan, you know, the more that you can lock the shoe into places put your foot, you basically have to use fewer muscles that way. Are you starting at trend are there other people that have following footsteps now? I actually what what do you think? I think probably. Yeah. You think a you? Honestly think that I think there's probably some people that look at what you're doing. And the young kids that think it must be a, you know, I here's what I think. Most people look at the path that the average person takes in life. You know, sell cars, I'm going to be an insurance guy. And they look they look at it like, it's death. If they look at a kid, a young kid who's like enjoying playing with his friends or doing sports or playing video games or reading comic books, and then you look at what could be the average path that the average person. Takes in life and sitting in an office all day and fluorescent lights. It looks like death. It looks like a slow aching death. But then I look at someone like you and Mike. Wow. This guy is living special life is a specialized was ideally, those somebody would look at it and see that like this is somebody living a very intentional life for having chosen a certain path. Yes, not necessarily free selling. I mean, I would love to inspire people to have an intentional life that they care about. Yes. I don't necessarily feel like people need to go free solar. Right. Well, I think that's that's a very good way of describing it very good way of putting it because I think most certainly have influenced people in that regard. But I think also people must be influenced in in the sense that they see where you're doing is man there's moments that you must experience while you are climbing these incredible faces that are kind of magical when you're up there you're thousand feet up there. The view is fucking spectacular. And you're doing it. And you get to the top of these things the rush and the feeling of accomplishment in the euphoria and just the glory of nature from the of yet look at this. You could fuck and wash your clothes on the sweat. That's in my hands right now. Man. That's fucking pictures. Insane. We're looking at what is the name of this photo? Jamie is the the enduro corner mock-up. That's actually that's the movie poster do. Man that is so so that that that is not sitting in a cubicle that is not fluorescent light with that. That is the end of a very long path that you have to choose and really, cultivate, you know, I mean, that's that's for me twenty three years of sort of going in or twenty two years or something of going down very specific path very specific. And you're still do you have a different van? Are you still on the same van? I'm in a better man than last night. That was pretty cited and to have a house now. Oh, actually, a real. No, I live in live live in Las Vegas now. Do you really? Yeah. Las vegas. Do the best best four season climate in the country real have Las Vegas. Yeah. There's climbing everywhere, and it's super successful. And it's easy. And it's like cheap cost living easy. You know? No traffic like everything is easy about Vegas. That's cool. Yeah. Whenever I go to Vegas. I was looking at the mountains outside of the right there. And nobody even looks at them yet from my driveway. You can see two thousand foot walls. I mean, you you can be climbing on a two thousand and falling twenty five minute drive twenty minute drive. That's interesting. Yeah. A lot of people like to run those mountains to run those hills. It's a lot of trail runners that live in areas. Well, totally. Yeah. The west side of town. You're like in the mountains. I mean, I can go mountain biking. I can go hiking. I go climbing on twenty minutes. He Vegas is kind of misunderstood place. Really is everyone just thinks the strip. But it's like it's not really the strip. It's like the mountains all around it. Yeah. But Biggs is like an a bowl of mountains. I mean all sides of it are surrounded by nouns. We'll Nevada in general kind of gets weird. Because of yeah. People think of the desert in Nevada, but really mountains. I mean, it's like series of mountain ranges all the way across the state. Yeah. Really is. I have a buddy who lives in Reno. He lives outside of Reno. And if you went near where he lives he'd be like where are we call Arado? Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Tahoe talk who's right there and Truckee Donner. I mean, there's a bunch of climate areas. Right. They're they're great for skiing. All winter. It's it's pretty cool. How old you know, thirty three. Do you feel any difference in the way your body responds to doing this on a regular basis? Now, maybe a little bit. I hate them getting old and everything. But, but I think especially right now at the film toured the amount of travel like a more intentional about my diet and stuff now and trying to get sleep and things like that. So in the you know, ten years ago, I just eat a whole tray Oreos and be like, all right? I feel great. Let's go climbing gym. It'll be fun. You know, now, I'm like, oh, man. I want my greens movie. I wanna get my night's sleep. And right. You know, I saw that. You're you're not eating meat anymore. And that you eat a lot of vegetables. Do you get your blood work done or do you? Do you work with your Trish inist? Now, you eggs. Yeah. I'll good. Yeah. I mean, I have cheese and stuff. And and and I mean, even meet so I gave up eating need for environmental reasons, mostly like, basically impact on the earth. And so I'm not fundamentally pose like I'll eat meat from time to time certainly for for cultural norms. Like, a you know, I was in Japan earlier this year, so fish, they're a bit just because I felt like it was part of the sort of Japanese travel experience. If someone hide it would you eat it. Yeah. Yes, sometimes. But the thing is I just don't feel like I need to intentionally kill another creature for me to survive. So if somebody who's going to go hunting for me to eat, it'd be like, no, it's fine. Right. Right. But then like on an expedition Antarctica a bunch of random meat just because it's like it's already there. You know, the other team members of already brought it. I'm sort of like, well, I'm hungry right over right? You know, mollusks are actually a good thing for people to look into that are vegan or vegetarian and they don't want to eat meat because they're actually more primitive even than vegetables. They're not. Yeah. Like, clams and scallops during credibly primitive. They have no feelings don't feel anything. They've know that there's an argument that could be made that plants communicate far more than mollusks. Like, lobs oysters rather muscle. Yeah. She but there's a protein to them that's similar to an animal protein, but incredibly primitive I mean insect protein. I think it's sort of a potential future of humanity to. Yeah, I'm not I'm not fundamentally opposed eating insects. But it's just you know, they're rarely served. But I would I would just imagine that particularly as you get older like nutrition would be a major factor making sure you get the proper amount of essential fatty acids and making sure that cause your brain must Billick you have to fuel your brain in terms of like giving your your brain, the building blocks for neuro transmitters, and all these different things that you're you're using. When you're you've this intense concentration for many, many hours at a time, and you're not eating when you're doing these things sometimes you do stop and eat something. I mean, you have to. I mean, if your phone or something hours, sometimes it'll bar are, you know, a nut butter Fairmount or not. Yeah. Those F bombs divert. Take those. That has what is that other? Great. I have a whole box of them will give you some. They sent them. Yeah. It's called it's called f-bomb like fat bomb, but it's all like nut butter and oils. And it comes in a package is ripped the top of the package off in squeeze it in your mouth three s morning. Oh, that's really good. It's really healthy sitting around to have them in the back. It's interesting. Yes. That is it tell Jeff there's a box of them in my office over there floor. Know where the boxes just go. You can run in and grab him go run into that door run into the office door and like sitting right in the front of the right hand side. There's a box of them. That's exactly what I'm talking about the better show. Those things I eat like three or four of them in the morning when I'm out headed out the door with a Cup of coffee now like a lot of a lot of that though. A lot of calories. I'm doing this sober October fitness challenged with my friends, I've been working out. I'm not not noble shit as much as five hours in a day because I'm trying to win this. We have a WWE style championship belt. It says intercontinental champion so -rupt over or intergalactic champion zoo. The sober part, though, does that mean, you're not no pot? No booze. No, nothing. Well, here's so you're just clean living for all of October and training for brain out. Yeah. Well, we're wearing ice. Wearing these these belts that measure, your heart rate, and they also quantify your performance like how much calories you burn. And there it is. He can take that the steps shit. What flavors at one macadamia pecan see-saw fantastic stuff? I look the chocolate and sea salt one to look through a sample. It was a good. That's cool. It's a real healthy. It's you know, just what you really what you need actually ingredients. Oh, yeah. It's awesome. And you just tear you smush them up, and you tear the top and you squirt in your mouth. Yeah. I do that a lot. I kind of prefer that to to, you know, gels or do whatever you wanna call it because that's pure sugar. I kind of prefer to help your head. Yes. Certainly for climbing. It's just not like in. It's not like running or cycling or something. Where your engines burning nonstop? We're gonna need to just pump sugar into it. So it's kind of a longer slow burn. You can you can eat fat for sure do you ever? Mess around with Nutro picks at all I've never even heard that word Nutro picks are are the building blocks for human neuro transmitters. It's like, they're they're they're supplements that enhance cognitive function is some of them are like standard what you'd get at like GNC, you wouldn't think of as Nutro pick. But they're finding out they are like creating they're finding out creating is actually a pretty potent Nutro pick actually enhance his cognitive performance. But there's one called alphabrain that my company has I'll send a bunch of into you. There's another company called neuro one that makes it great one. You know, Bill Romanowski is not sure former NFL player who. Who took a lot of hits patriots. No wasn't going on the Broncos. Yeah. Savage crazy animal and during his day. You know, obviously sustained a lot of head injuries and wanted to find some sort of a natural way to replenish, his brain function. So he created this company called neuro one. And that's this is how I found out about Nutro picks is through his his product. It's fantastic. Great stuff. It's just powder. You put it in water shake it up. It actually has a protein and a bunch of different neurotransmitters in it. But it's really good for enhancing function interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder if there's actually works. Yeah. It does. Well, alphabrain my company we we had to double blind placebo controlled studies with the Boston center for memory that showed improvements in verbal memory in reaction time in peak alpha flow state, so what what am I what is PICO opposed to those good question? Have to dive into it. Okay. Yeah. They're all the if you go to on it dot com all the tests are available. You can go over like what it means. But what what you find from these another one called true brain that? What does that guy's name that he was a guest to the podcast, Dr Andrew? No, that's Andy Galvin. There's my point is besides my company is a bunch of companies make really good ones. And they're they're fantastic. If you have to give speeches are if you have talk if you do any of the things that I do like commentary, go straight cocaine, you fired up give it great talk. Anything? You're like metal. That's a question. I had for you to like how many people that are doing what you do are on either Adderall or they take things like beta blockers. That's honestly, I was so I think nobody. But I mean, a lot of climbers smoke a lot of weed or you know, nowadays. I don't even know what you do with it during your out to smoke it. Yeah. He just get you like drinking stuff. I don't have so many like cannabis things now. But but no, I don't know. So I I've never really done drugs. I don't I'm not totally interested center. They know anything about it. But I don't know it's interesting because it's not like anyone's drug testing climbers and unless they're competing in the World Cup level or it's actually going to be the Olympics in twenty twenty but claritin's yet climbing is station. So did they have an event like in terms of like a pathway that you have to go through? So it's what so World Cup climbing breaks into three disciplines like lead climbing, which is like a same as indoor wall, and then bouldering which is shorter without a rope. You know, you twelve feet or whatever, and then speed climbing where it's like a preset course, everyone does the exact same course. But he just goes fast that you can against the time. And so normally those three disciplines for the World Cup. But the Olympic format combines all three into one competition because they're limited by how many medals and whatever because it's like a demonstration sport. They're sort of, you know, it's it's smaller scale than than some of the other sports in the Olympics. But so. Yes. So basically coming competitors. Just have to do all three disciplines see who wins. I was watching something on YouTube where they had this climbing competition more. They like ready said go, and then they like shot that's the speed coming this lady who's wearing a burqa. She she like famous or something daughter. No. But but there are a bunch of really strong Iranian speak climbers. And so I wouldn't be surprised if as part of that she ran up at like a spider. It was crazy to watch yet for whatever reason speed coming is really big in eastern Europe. And then they're a couple of really good around in speed commerce. And yeah, they're just it's like, it's sort of its own little niche sport coming out of certain parts of the world. That is well, there's some strong jeans over there in Iran. Like a lot of great wrestlers because I don't know. I don't know if the woman you're talking about is from there. I'm thinking of one specific dude who so much as portrait in speed Iranian climate. Far. Now's spell that. As my calls. Zodda. I think you pretty much got that. Yeah. I to see the video of her because she's a fucking Spider-Man. She's runs up the side of that hill. He's gonna browse the internet. Yes, he could find anyway. So with the with the new Olympic style climbing. I mean, obviously don't be drug testing with ROY Cutler's drug testing. But it's funny with the, but nobody really uses performance enhancing drugs. I don't think they let's one I'm getting one a one World Cup. Climber had a medal taken away for having used recreational cocaine. And he was like, oh, I'm really sorry. You know, I'm sorry. I did coke. But he was like it was more for the partying than the performance. You know there. She is look at her. This ladies, I mean for a guy like you is at impressive see that play that from the beginning. Does it's pretty fast. That's not as fast. I mean, if you watch some of the more elite times, it's it's faster for sure women or men both. I think some. That I think so I don't know. Wow. I don't know, man. But you're you're the guy who had no to me, that's damn impressive. Just look up a world record. I mean, I think the mail records like five point something seconds serves six seconds. It's like something really really fast. Now, did they know this path in advance? Yes. So that's exactly the same root for everybody always same distance same holds. And so you basically memorize the sequence. And then you just performance as fast as you can. So here we go. Here's a world record as the. So you stand on that thing. Yes timer starts when you're one foot comes off the timer on the ground. And then it ends when he slapped the thing on the top. Oh my God. Oh my God. Real. Yeah. Look at that, five point, whatever seconds. Oh my God. That doesn't look real. Like does it look like he's just running like on the sidewalk? This camera flat. Let he's ground. And they're they're faking it. Yeah. For the camera. Yeah. Now, do these guys free so low or the they specific concentrate on the imagine of your freeze like this. You would die for sure. That beta blockers would be something that someone who free solos would wanna look into. I don't I don't know that data blockers or something that blocks your your brains production of adrenalin. But I mean, I don't know if you'd want that though because the things if you have an adrenalin by it's because something weird went on. And you probably want to you want to get him out. I've had a couple of times where like broke a hold off or something like all of a sudden, you're hold drips off. And then you have that like superhuman surge of odd, and you grab back on. Yeah. You don't wanna be mellow at that time. Yeah. Exactly. You don't be like, I'm so relaxed as I fall all the way to the valley floor. You know, it's like you wanna frigging hold on one of the things in the film was one of the guys who fell and guess eventually died. He was doing any fell and base jumped with a parachute. He he called a freebasing. He's sort of pioneered the sport as it were. But there's usually a good thing to have on your back. Well, not really so. Yeah. I mean, the idea makes sense that if you're gonna fall off a cliff have parachute. The thing is that you need to be on a very specific kind of cliff like what he was on where it was overhanging. So that when he fell he cleared the wall, and he like right loaded out in a space. But the thing is you seventy all the walls are slightly less than vertical in general. And so it means that you just tumbled on the wall. You know, and the other thing is that even if you have a parachute parachutes function as a wing, you know, they have a direction to them like Eric comes into them, and you fly in direction, which means that you have to be facing away from the wall when you open your parachute or else, you just fly right into the wall and crash. Yeah. So it basically means if you fall off unexpectedly you then have to track away from the wall right yourself in mid air. You know, correct for everything. And then make sure you're facing the right way. And he was like, basically, there are a lot of things that have to go right for the parachute to help you. But. Okay. Does not get. Yeah. I mean, it's a lot of people is that they're like, oh, why don't you wear a parachute? And you're like, what's basically this ten pound training. Wait, that doesn't really hope you much that guy just jumped on purpose. Yeah. This well. Yeah. So he's got. So this is on the Eiger though. It looks like I think and you can yes, he's like jumping away. He's getting a nice controlled opening. He's like flying away from the cliff. It's like everything is going right for him. Would imagine if one of his footholds just broke and he started pin wheeling down the wall. So you never get the separation from the wall faster. Let's just watch extreme sports videos now the date. All right. Well, this guy's surely going to have a disaster. What one of the things from the video when they were talking about all the people that have died that every essentially everyone from the past that was a free solo or is dead. And you're saying there's other things that they were doing like base jumping base jumping. And even there are a couple older soloist. I mean in the film, Peter Croft is like a legendary soloist and he's a childhood hero of mine. And he's you know, I don't want to say pushing sixty six I'm not sure how old Peter is. But he's you know, he's an older he's a distinguished gentleman. And he's a he's living in the eastern Sierra. He's climbing all the time. He's like loving life with his wife, and actually he's in Greece on a sport climbing vacation right now, just climbing for two months fun, climbing with a rope having a great time. And so, you know, I look at something like Peter, and he's he was free soloing it at the very cutting edge for twenty years, basically, then and it's still just a happy common now. But does he free soloing more? Just climbs was so it's funny. I so I had dinner with him a couple of years ago now. I was like, oh, Peter at what point did, you quit Soling at sort of an elite level, you know, like when did you sort of back off the grades? And he was like, oh, actually I did want to technically by the numbers. I did one of my hardest a couple years ago. But it was like a sport his local Craig. So like a route that he routinely climb for fitness that just happened to be a pretty hard number. You know, like climbing grades are all sort of categorized. And so usually like, yeah. Technically, one of my hardest SOLAS was just recently. But it's like a hard number, but not nearly as much of an undertaking. Some of the big solos that he'd done in the past like some of the walls that he'd sold it any seventy back in the day. You know? And so he was like, oh, it's all just kind of how you define difficulty. Now, when when you say that there's a number system that sort of rates what a like, how difficult of free solo path is not that rates climbing in general with a row without a rope is just it just rates how hard climates what is L cap was the route that I climbed is five twelve for whatever that means or maybe it's thirteen depending how you depending on what you want to call it. But what does that mean? Yeah. Exactly. So the the climbing climbing grades are defined. I don't know. So in America by the seventy decimal system in its classification of terrain from one one two six decibels decimal system. Why? Yes. But it's it's other parts of the world have different systems, and like in Australia is just an open ended numbers from one to thirty eight or something. Whereas they they get harder. They were destroyed climbing. Great comparison. Oh, yelich seventy. That's interesting one. Would be climbing culture grew up in all different parts of the world, right, and climbing culture, I guess is a big part of Yosemite yet. Well, yeah. I mean, climbing as a sport in the US is sort of birth from you semi. I mean, the the history of alpena som or climbing rock climbing. Anyway, certain comes from somebody in the US. Is it just because the paths are so cool that the just drew people to it or? Yeah, partially. I mean. Yeah, the summits are so striking. And I think a lot of it also just had to do with just culture because a big part of it was from L A and the bay area who probably had some sense of classical album from the Alps, you know, people who traveled to some extent and then wanted to climb other mountains in the happened to live near one of the most iconic areas in the world. And so then I don't know. But anyway, so it winds up being called semi decimal system. But but yes, basically, it's the it's categories of terrain sle one being walking on a normal trail to being like scrambling. Little bit three being like scrambling through hands and feet up. Rocks. And then fourth class being like sorta like climbing easier than fifth class being actual rock climbing. And so then it was five point one through nine depending on how how hard things are so five point one being pretty easy five point nine being pretty hard like you're rock climbing now in technical, and then certain point that system wasn't adequate. So they had to start adding, you know, five point ten in subdivide into ABCD in five point eleven ABCD in the five point twelve isn't now, it's an open ended system that right now goes up to five sixteen visiting whoa. But L cap is really complicated. So L cap is twelve or five point twelve d or maybe five point thirteen which is the next grade up. It's also now, but so basically that means that it's it's elite like that's very difficult and something that like an average person can't do, but it's definitely not close to the physical. Limit of what's been done in the world. But. That's with a rope on and that's after years of practice. What's the physical limit? Like, what is the peak of right now, the hardest gray in the world is fifteen d which is extremely hard. I mean, it's totally crazy. But so one guy this check guy his done one route that he called fifteen d and so it hasn't been repeated. So it's not like an established consensus, but there are several fifteen season the world, and they're they're many fifteen bees in the world. Where's his fifteen d? It's an a cave in Norway. Yeah. That's the kind of interesting thing about climbing grades and climbing difficulties. They're all spread around the world, very specific cliffs because it requires just the right combination of of angle and holds, you know, there have to be enough things to hold onto. But not too many Earls it's easier. Right. And so for you know, an elite climber. They're basically searching the world all the time trying to find that right mixture of of rock. Wow. What a strange exists. It's it's really really neat. She has very unusual now when you hear it, but it's also kind of elemental in a way, you know, because rocks are out there. And you're basically just going and explore nature until you find the right kind of challenge. Well, yeah. There's to there's some sort of a primal satisfaction that comes from climbing, something, right? Yeah. There's yeah. There's an elemental quality for sure where you're like this is something that just exists in the world. And you just yes it. Yeah. This is this is this. This monitor this check it climbing fifteen God coming out about it. I guess no. It's already out. It's it's a short online actually silence yet the route he put up he called silence. But if this is the film just scrub all the way to the very, oh, that's the area. Afraid of their. So you can seize climbing feet. I through some of it, and it's totally extremes. So this guy Adam Andrea is for sure the strongest climate in the world right now like physical yet physically. So he's he put up the world's first fifteen c and the first fifteen d so he's basically pushed the edge of difficulty for the last several grades. Wow. And he's just freakishly strong. Is that something that you would have to be to do what he's doing like a regular climate? Couldn't do what he's doing is almost like acrobatic involved. Yeah. Yeah. Look what he's doing. There is like that's so this is the world's first fifteen see so slow the easier. He did the several years ago. But it's like and then. Yeah. But that's where he has a rope. You know, and you tries that over and over. But yeah, he's he's an amazing clamor. He's really he's like a polymath. He's like he's great at every discipline? What else does he do was? So he have you heard at the dawn wall on cap. No. So Tommy called both. You know, who he is fest from climber. He's he's he was I don't know. Yeah. He's basically one of America's best climbers. He did this recall, the dawn wall, which is also a film in theaters or wasn't theaters last month is sort of random that too big films came out exactly the same time. But it's just one of those freak things. But so the John wall was considered the hardest climb in the world to some extent. It's this thing it was a seven year project for him up the right side of oak. The thing I climbed is on the left side. How call them something on the right side, which is much harder. But he was using a rope and put seven years of work into it. And anyway, yeah. And then this guy outta monitor who Washington video of he he did the second ascent and he put like. Month of work into it. And repeated it whoa, he's really really strong. Wow. So when you see a guy do something like that does that make you think about doing it or do you go? That's only something that someone can do with with ropes. Oh, yeah. No. I mean, their whole categories of climbing. They can only be done with a rope. Because the moves our way too insecure. You fall off way too often. I mean, anything that guy fall off doing that like hundreds or maybe even thousands of times I mean for so for him to for him to do something. My heart. I mean to to climb at the very highest levels of human present. I mean, so think about a gymnast or something right there. Yeah. That's so he's free soloing. No, no. He has a harness on a rope right there. Okay. Yeah. No. I mean, look at what he's holding his one finger. No, I think is other one might be onto but but it's basically like a tiny tiny tiny edge. This is the crux of one of the pitches on the Don wall TATA's, so insane that guy could probably crush your head. But just grabbing it when certainly the he has a certain ferocity he has an intensity where you can try with one hundred and fifteen percent. So I'm pretty sure if you grab your head and try to harvest it would just pop like a little melon. The grip strength. The he's holding on such tiny tiny little things. Yeah. He's he's very very drug. Wow, man. So a guy like that. When when you see him do these paths, these pads are past you can only do with a robe. Yeah. Yeah. Does he free solo as well? I don't think he ever has. It's not really his thing. And the thing in some ways, it's really hard to do both at a high level and. I think or at least to some extent it's hard to do both at a high level because so for him for him to climb something that hard he needs that intensity. He needs one hundred fifteen percent effort. But if you're trying to free solo, well, you definitely should never be giving anything even remotely close to one hundred and fifteen percent effort or die for sure. Because you're so close to that razor edge of failure. When you're trying hard, but with free soul, and you have to always keep it sort of your comfort zone because you don't wanna die doing it. So I mean, I think that I've always sort of kept my my personal like you on your personal barometer of effort. I sort of live between four and seven let's say or like three and a half and seven maybe where it's like, you're never too relaxed. But you're also never going to the absolute death or sort of like in the four to six is the sweet spot where you like climbing. I'm having a good time. But I'm not like trying too hard. And I'm not right laxed. But says somebody like Adamawa monitor Tommy Caldwell like, I've I've climbed Mattamy a lot over the years. He's he's a great climber. And I've really seen this because he. Like I've seen him just randomly fall off many times because he was just like slip. He's like, oh, I'm so relaxed. It's so easy. And then I'm like, oh, but slipped, and that's kind of like an effort of one where you're like, your body is so relaxed if anything happens, then you fall and with with a rope on that's fine in some ways that's more efficient way to climb because you know, you're so relaxed most the time that you're saving a lot of energy over all that every once in a while when you fall, it's like who cares? The rope catches you. It's no problem. But you have to trust those little things sticking the crowd. That's hope. So that's like I mean, that's yeah. That's that's coming. What is he doing? He's a he's counter pressuring me his leg into this crack arrest. He's basically like pushing his knee into the rock to in order to relax arms from his whole is leaning backwards. Yeah. So he's hanging upside down, basically every muscle in his body's relaxed except for his calf and his calf is forcing his knee into the rock, which hold them in place. Just how about when you that is so insane that photos, so insane. Yo that's a really efficient way to rest to rest your arms. We'll be get through. Tonight. Well, you know, I mean for him. It's like for him to be able to rest like that. For one minute is an amazing way to rest your arms for a minute. And then it sort of saps your core. And he's really tired of. Now does a guy like does he lift weights or anything to prepare for these things is just I dunno. He's doing he's he's on his own program. But it's it's really climate specific he's mostly doing things with his fingers. And yeah, he's pretty jacked. Is that even him? That's crazy. That's weird. Yeah. It's the same. It's the same route. That's interesting. I've never seen that photo. But I mean, I guess you just get jacked from doing that too though. Just constantly pulling yourself up. Yeah. For sure there's a climbing wall dislike local kids place, and I told my daughter give one hundred bucks if she can make all the way to the other side, it's pretty difficult. And so she's become obsessed with trying to get over that to get one hundred bucks. That's definitely jacked. I mean, look he's Jack you're gonna wind up super ripped. It's hard to do. I tried to do it. And I couldn't do it was like, wow, this is really hard difficult. To do. I bet if you if you try to bit I mean, just because you have such a background in movement, and fitness and everything I bet it wouldn't be that hard for you instruction. I'm pretty heavy though for someone short that that'd be an issue hanging. I'm two hundred two in theory, climbing should be more in your legs. Anyway, should be driving with your legs. Because no matter what your legs are always bigger and stronger muscles in your arms. Like, that's always what drives you upward and then your arm should only be holding your weight in and keeping your keeping you balanced over your feet. Basically. This is interesting. That's something that they figured out fairly recently with grappling over the last like ten fifteen years with jujitsu and things along those lines that your legs, you it's really important to us mostly your legs when yapping totally I can see that. I mean, that's what's driving you forward. Motion the whole controlling your opponent and manipulating your opponent and doing stuff with your legs. Do you do anything to cross train? Mike, not really, no, I do other mountain sports a little you mountain biking or skiing or things like that. We do it for fun. Yeah. For fun. And then the only real cross trained and do is just sort of like a push up and core type routine, you know, like opposition training just to maintain healthy healthy body because you're constantly pulling always pulling from sport. So then I try to do a little bit of pushing in core just to make sure that things stay balanced out. Now is that something you talked to a physical therapist about or? No, that's just that's just basic physiology. I'm the only pull you have to push. Sometimes you wind up all in balance, right and injured. Well, I I saw the one of the things in the film was when you were recovering from your ankle sprain. And you know, you had said that you really hadn't been injured in years. Then also, you have this girlfriend, and she doesn't climb and you get injured. Yeah. Yeah. That that actually is just freak free timing contact. Yes, fortunate because I think really it just shows that I've been really fortunate for twenty years that I've had very few injuries climbing. And then, you know, at some point you just have a few in this. I mean, those just life to some extent. But when you do have something like that, and you feel sort of the vulnerability of your tissue, and your do you do you think about like, hey, what if this happened halfway up some fucking insane path the the bigger thing in the film? I have a back injury earlier where I get lowered off the end of the rope. And fall, I only fell maybe ten or twelve feet, you know, sort of like the height of this this room, basically. And but I landed sort of like folded over this rock back where it was like totally horrible like these jagged boulders. And so I didn't go that far. But I was like, oh, you know, I got worked, and it was really sobering. Because it made me realize that if I fell from forty feet, climbing, you could it could be. Yeah. I mean. It'd be a disaster. Airbase got it made me realize just how fragile my body's because I'm like, oh, I only fell little tiny ways. And it like really hurt was like pretty bad. I was like man if you feel much further you could you could anything could happen. Yeah. People step off stairs wrong and yet. Yeah. It's very strange the the bodies so fragile. It's really amazing. What's funny? But it's so fragile. But then also so robust, and someone is I mean, it's amazing what with the human body can adapt to or withstand. But then yet, and then some things just can't. Yeah. That's why I was asking you about your age like as you get older you seeing a difference in the way, you recover, you see any difference in the way, you know. Like what you're what you feel like your potential is. I yes, sir. To say. I think yeah. I don't know. I mean, those those are the tough questions. I mean, you know, I'm sure sure you think about that stuff to a fighter the fighter at your age thirty three he said, yeah. That's when you start tailing off that wine. Four thirty five on a fighter hits like thirty six like. Yikes. Is that is that like old for fighter? Now. It's pretty old. It's very rare. There's only a few guys who've been able to compete at a world class level pass that an MA. Randy couture, stands out and boxing Bernard Hopkins. Stands out how old is the Floyd Mayweather forty. He's forty. He's still considered like fighting an elite level. Well, you know when he fought Conor McGregor Conor McGregor was nowhere near his level. Because Conor McGregor wasn't really a box on boxer. Yeah. And so Florida just kind of worked him, but he hasn't really thought at a world class level for a couple years because you know, he beat canal Alvarez several years ago, and it made canal drop a ton of weight when he beat many pack him any pacu was quite a bit past as prime and had a shoulder injury. So you probably dealing with like three years or so since he's fought like real world class competition. When you say he made them drop underweight Zamin like to how does clever, you know, he he wanted him to fight at a lower weight class because Floyd really Floyd started off his career. I want wanna say at one thirty then he fought at one three five. Yeah. And you know, his real isn't he how big is it very small so five six five seven maybe five seven. Yeah. And tiny little hands on very small hands. But very certainly hit very hard. Well, he's not. He's just a genius boxer. Probably one of the best defense. Probably if not the best definitely top two or three defensive boxers of all time only been really hit hard to the point where he's been wobbled like maybe like four four times entire career as it seems like that's that's the kind of boxer. You wanna be exactly going to be like the rocky bub Staubach's death? And then you want us boring. Really you won't forget and watching an F L games with good. Offense. And you're like, oh, man. It's like now the team you wanna watch. But it's probably the better team. Yeah. Well, especially with boxing because the consequences are so grave if you hit a lot there's a horrible video that I put up on YouTube are on Twitter rather than a retweeted someone sent me. And it's boxers when they're young talking verses after injuries, and you're watching you like, whoa. It's it's stunning. Just like NFL stuff too. I mean. Yeah. I mean, people talk about that with climbing like, oh, it's such a dangerous sport. But the thing about rock climbing is that it's basically a completely safe sport right up until some kind of accident may happen. And then then you tensely die. So the thing is you can basically climb at a high level for fifty years and never have any issues or you could maybe die doing it. But it's kind of a fundamentally safe sport for the most part as opposed to what we're talking about like fighting or football things like that where like or even mountain biking where you're for sure. Gonna get injured. Like, no matter what just by just by playing the game. Yeah. Football and fighting. They creep up on you like the injuries started a pile. We'll but basically just even in practice. You are getting injured constantly, you know. And so it's I mean, that's kinda messed up. It's like just the price of entry is going to be frigging head injuries. Yeah. I went to a football game you'll do high school football game. And when I was there, I had a really hard time watching it because everybody's cheering. And I'm an I was talking to my friend, Mike, you're looking at brain damage messed up these kids are getting brain damage, and this is like a really nice private school where they pay a lot of money to get the kids into this program. And then the kids are playing football these they're all getting brain damage. He goes really I go one hundred percent. Did you see that collision brain damage? That's definitely brain damage. It might not be a lot. They might be. Okay. But how many of those they do today? How do they do in many a month? How many ways to human potential there really is? I mean, the problem is it's such a grant. And part of our history, and our cultures were doesn't really need to be. I mean football hasn't existed that long. Yeah. No. I agree. I mean, I'm not I I watch a rodeo from like very very close basically like from the commentators box like above the the pens for the fourth of July radio in Wyoming t- summers ago. And that was something that was like this is messed up. I mean, and I'm not like, huge animal rights guy. But I'm vegetarian obviously in a sort of care. And I was like, oh, you know, you're kind of abusing these animals for sport. And that's like that doesn't you sit that well with me. But what was even worse as I was like all these young men are getting worked just like for the entertainment is totally like Roman gladiator type stuff, and I'll just like, and it's weird because it's so cultural, you know, because and you know, I mean, I can I can empathize. Because obviously, I'm doing something, and it's also sort of blood sporty to some extent. And and sort of for the same reason, you know, you're a teenage to look into do something interesting and engaging. That's that will hopefully get you laid you know, like. You just want to. I mean, if you're from small town, Wyoming and you're like, oh, I'm good at riding bowls. Like, that's for sure going to be your path. And I'm like, oh, it's just too bad that that's your path. It's path. I mean, we watch this guy. Get frigging thrown off this bowl. And and he was fine. You know land on the ground. But then the Beaufort was charging him and the guy like I've never seen human Terry. Like, he basically just turned and ran as fast as he could. But he ran straight into this post like headfirst into this frigging steel post like the edge of the because he just didn't you know, it was like the bowl's coming at him. He turns and runs, and he basically like Knox himself out against this Posen, thankfully, the clowns distracted the bowl. And then the paramedic ambulance basically parked on the other side of the fence from what you're gonna do. And so they basically like lift him over and put them straight on the stretcher and take away. I was like, dude, and you know, the crowds. And you're just like that guys like messed up like, you know, everything about it made me like feel kinda gross. You know? Yeah. It's not like I would never wanna pay to watch somebody hurt themselves. I don't know. Well, it's weird that that's culturally acceptable. But like bullfighting is not. Yeah. Totally draw line yet bull writing. It's like they're for containing the bowls. They're lighting aren't they tying off their balls. And they're doing all kinds of bad. Things would argue that schools have great lives, you know, though, they feed them. Well, and they get a lot of exercise, and they're very happy bowls. And you're like, dude, I'm pretty sure they'd rather be roaming the open plains like inseminating cows. You know? Yeah. That's weird justification. Yeah. We had a guy fear factor once that was a professional rodeo guy and his shoulder was like a topographic map who was just hit so many scars in his shoulder. And he told me show that would just pop out just like he could just pop it out left. But right from just being destroyed like Ford by bowl falling and getting it ripped apart all riding bulls. Yeah. I just don't get that just wasn't working anymore. I mean, he had a bunch of surgeries, and they tried to screw it back together and tighten things down. But it was just destroyed though. I'm sure I'm sure a Beretta would look at free sewing. It'd be like what a crazy everybody looks at another great. And honestly, I look at five. And I'm like doesn't. He's totally outrageous. Like, why would you want some other dude beaten to death in cage? That's it's outrageous. It is outrageous. But if you can get good enough or you can avoid young age. Yeah. And then the will to land the damage it's kind of the same. But even landing the damage certain extent, you're like, oh, you're hurting somebody else for the pleasure of the crowd. That's kind of messed up. Yeah. Not you know, it's a very weird feeling knocking someone out is one of the weirdest feelings because part of you is happy that it's not you. But part of you is like looking down at that guy. That's just got flatlined in. You're like, whoa. That could have been made. How much defied is like hold back. You know, because I feel like you kind of have to go to the death. But then if you actually like punch somebody so hard they died or something. I mean, obviously, you'd feel horrible. Right. You don't back at all. I'm saying. So it's like you don't hold back at all. But then if you actually killed somebody, wouldn't you feel horrible. It's very rare that someone dies in mixed martial arts believe it or not. Well, yeah. No. I I mean, I know that. Yes. Definitely. And it has happened. And it sort of like, it has happened very very rarely in mixed. Martial arts never in the UFC. But in boxing, it happens more often, and with one of the reasons why it happens more often in boxing because you're only punching in your taking people down you have you tapping out because there. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's also there's more options to defend yourself. You're not just getting battered against the ropes. They're also nowadays much better at stopping a fight when a fighter's clearly compromised when the really fucked up in the old days, they used to let guys just get battered these to you know box. Yeah. That that doesn't sit. Well with me. I'm just like. Yeah. But that's what I'm not a fighter. Well, that's about climbing is there's this real elemental appeal to just you in the mountain and its nature, and it's beautiful, and it's like, very peaceful and calm. It's like so different than having thousands of people screaming at us. You punch on the face over. It's like dude just does not my scene. Well, did you see the Conor McGregor could be number medoff fight with there's the fight outside the cage always interesting where the guy vaults out of the cage, and like starts brawling like like WWE or whatever they start breaking tables over people as you than that. Because it was real. Yes, totally outrageous. But what's funny is? It became chaos because a fight erupted outside of the parameters of the fight. It was just more fighting seen fighting. This is what we paid for this isn't. Okay, right. Everybody is like fighting in the cage fine. This is lovely. But he gives out of the cage. Oh my God. He's out in the wild. That's the world fighting isn't that gonna messed up? Yeah. It's definitely messed. He's a professional fighter. He's fighting. Does what he does. It's weird though, the whole listen, and this is coming from someone who's been involved in this my whole life. It's weird. It's I absolutely see all the arguments against it. And yet you still want to go train when the face. Well, I don't punch anybody the face anymore. I still choke people. But I think that's totally fine that well, it's the thing about the jujitsu aspect of it is you you really can tap out. And stop, and you don't really get hurt really time. You get hurt training jujitsu is accidental for the most part, especially trained with your you actually better off training with a black belt, then you are with the white belt toilet because. Yeah. No, I get that blacks have more control Bill. They'll be fine with you though. Just those tap you and your accidentally kicks you in the face like oh. Far, he's really strong, especially if you've got a white belt is like a cross fitters fucking jacked strong guide. Just once. Just grappling and then his arm came out. And I don't know what to do with it. So I threw it away. I don't know. Yeah. Really unskilled guy who's extremely strong who's learning technique and is also a spouse as very dangerous role. So yeah, you don't wanna teach me jitsu where you're saying. Not me. You if you did it with me, we'd be fine. But if you did it with someone who's a real beginner who's, you know dog saying, I'm the strong beginner. Yeah. Ribbon. No idea what I'm doing. The real probably be if we're both beginners Iago that would be the real problem. The like a strong spouse is not really not going to work against a black belt. That's a learning curve for climbing to you don't want to be interest going out and trying to like Clinton mountain together with Bowie a-, I would worry about that. Like, if you're climbing do you ever climb like is there a chain like one person in front of you like soups? Yeah. When you come at the rope. It's basically two people one goes out first, and then brings up the second because you're limited by the length of the ropes of it's one person goes out at the end of the rope brings up the next person that person climbs through brings it up the second. So you dependent upon the holes that they put in when they put those bolts into the cracks and bolts and things are put in by the first ascension. So the very first person to have ever climbed the route. But then everybody thereafter is able to just clip their their equipment into the bolts or use pre established anchors things like that. Oh, so all the all the. Oh, so all the all the roots are already established, and you can like read a book that shows all the different routes. So like, okay, tan has something like one hundred twelve different routes up it, and and of those one hundred twelve only fifteen or so of them can be free climbed, which is different than free soloing free, climbing, meaning just using your hands and your feet, and you're still using a rope. You're still clipping into protection as you go. But you're only using your hand in your feet to get you up as opposed to like putting gear in and then pulling on the gear which cheating so of the hundred routes on cap, you know, something like ninety of them you have to pull on the hardware. You have to like clip little ladders into it and step on, you know, you have to hammer Piton in and then clip into them and stand on them in hammer another Piton step on that. Because there's no footnote. Yeah. There's just nothing to hold onto its too hard. Oh, wow. So then so then there. Yes. Something like ten or fifteen free climbing routes where you can climate. And so with my big goal of of trying to free solo cap to climate without a rope. I was limited to just those ten or fifteen routes that are possible to climb just with your hands and feet. And how did you? Establish the one that you wanted to proceed on ES, basically, I just want him doing the easiest one because basically it's really hard to free time. Okay. Up by any means. And so the easiest one wound up being the most secure the the best one for me. How many people have done it wo- free solo or free time free solo free so on? I mean, the only the only one. Yeah. I mean, that's why there's the film and everything it's it's and nobody's ever even thought about it. You know, nobody's considered. It's not like something that people are trying to do. Now that you've done it other other people that are considering it. I really I mean, I think it's almost more the opposite. Now that I've done it people like, whoa. You need to do that. I mean, there's nobody even playing this game right now. Really? There aren't that many high end free soloist right now how many other? Two one something really? I mean, I don't know. I I don't know if there are any others really run out. This guy Brad go right in American guy, who's been free selling at a pretty high level. But definitely he's a really good friend of mine. So I'm not like slandering him. But but definitely at a very different level than than like he would never even dream selling. So he's sort of starting out was not that he's starting out. I mean, he's a very climber. He's been common with longtime, and he's done all kinds of very difficult things. But in terms of free soloing, I think he just doesn't need to push it as that hard. So he's almost like he dabbles and free soloing. Yeah. Well, I mean, I'd Avalon freeze only as well. I mean, mostly I'm climbing with my friends doing other things, I mean, I think most almost all climbers only dabble in free so free selling sort of like one discipline of climbing. Like we were talking earlier about the Olympics having multiple disciplines. You know, there are many types of climbing and most climbers do all of them to some extent in free soloing, always represents sort of this small specialty like extra style. So you do free climbing. And then you also do the kind of climbing what you have to put in those posts and stand on them our aid calming artificial climbing, so three climb aid calm. Sometimes I I don't like to because it's too much worry too much like construction, you know, you're like nailing things and standing on its like engineering, but I do that. Because sometimes that's what it requires to get up big nuns, and we don't do that. And you nail things and stand on them. Do you take them out as well? Yeah. The second person takes him out. So the one person uses them to get up. And then once the rope is secured above them, the second person joins them in removes them, all and then you have all your gear back, and then you're able to do it again for the next section how much weight is that stuff depends where it can be a lot and certainly back in the day when people were doing the first sense of L cap. I mean, it's something like forty pounds or fifty pounds of iron hanging off him. Jeez. Nowadays, it's all out later, and you can use better gear. But but yeah, it's a lot, but that's kind of the appeal of free climbing or even. Rissoli is that you have nothing on you. Now, how secure is that stuff that you're hangings hammering in there? It depends. It depends on their certainly stories of people falling in ripping all the stuff. But but but sometimes that's okay. Because if you're if you're thousands of feet off the ground, you can take one hundred foot fall and not touch anything. And it's fun. Yeah. But still not really really counting on the thing. It's all it's all well-founded. I mean, just got to trust you. Now earlier this summer, I was talking about Tommy Koldo one of the best climbers in the country. So the two of us did the speed record on cap earlier this year. And so that's the two of us are tied together. We're using a rope or using equipment. But we're anything goes you're cheating as much as you can is trying to get from bottom milk cap to the top as fast as possible. This is on a different route than the one that I freeze solid in the film. And so we were trying to go sub two hours, and we ultimately didn't when fifty eight it was pretty awesome. We're really psyched. But along the way Tommy took one hundred footfall at one point when he just I was talking about him with the whole one to ten effort. He was climbing something that's really really easy, and he was probably giving an effort of like two and he just slipped. You know? And I was like, oh, but anyway, he frigging whipped you felt like a hundred fees just to write down the wall didn't touch anything because okay is like a very clean vertical sheet. Iraq, a whole long. Does it take to fall hundred feet? That's several. Yes. Several teen second. No, no, no, no like four or five or something. Accelerates quick one two three long enough. Like, oh my God. I'm going to. No, no. No long enough. So the reason he fell so far is because we are doing this sort of complicated maneuvers. Normally, I would have a Belay device on basically, I would be attached to the rope earlier to catch him, but I take in my Belay device off. And I was just tied into the end. So basically, he fell on all the slack whipped through until it hit me at the end of the rope. But so when he yelled, I basically had time to be like, oh my God. He's falling like brace for impact like knowing the in a second. The rope is gonna come tight against the end that I'm tied into basically jerk me. Wow. Then, thankfully, there's enough drag in the system that it didn't jerk me off the stance that I was on. I would have gotten pulled like fifty feet across the wall, and it was almost up. So when he's falling, and you're realizing that you're gonna get yanked by his fall. A you like digging into the rat. No, basically, I was like whom I brace yourself. Like, I was in this position. I was actually like phasing out away from the wall like facing out towards the meadow. Because I I was in an open corner. Like if you look at the corner of the room, imagine one leg on each side facing outward. Like pushed into this position. Because it's like I was about to have to untie my not retire and do some things. And so I was basically like already to do some things. And all of a sudden I hear that he's falling. And I was like oh my God. And then they voted able to just sort of like stick in there cheese. But my point is just that taking big. I mean, if you trust your equipment, and everything it can be okay to take big falls like that you obviously try to avoid them because you know, had he hit a leg or something. Then potentially he could have died. But because it was it was clean there. It was. Okay. So if he was in a situation where there was a slight angle, and he fell that far down through it which really dangerous. Yeah. I mean worst case scenario would be if he fell one hundred feet and seventy five down there was a ledge sticking out of this table because then you would clip it you'd break your legs. Everything would explode. Aw. Yeah. What do you do if you fall and you break something in your halfway up do? Okay. Same route the the nose of vocab, which we we're trying to do the speed record on this friend of mine who I actually previously held the speed record with this older guy Hans flooring who actually wrote the book how to speed climb that. I learned how to speak on from many years ago. So he friggin exactly what I'm describing sort of worst case scenario. He took this twenty probably twenty two footfall, but he was unlucky enough. Which is totally fine. He had a rope yet gear everything worked exactly the way it's supposed to he just fell always which is normal. But the bummer was that there was a little ledge probably twice the size of that box right there like a little wooden box. Just kind of this little thing sticking out from the wall about this far that basically he fell twenty feet hit that broke both of his ankles. And then and then went off another two feet. And so the rope Khadem, and you know, the fall was exactly as expected all his gear held everything's totally normal except that he happened to hit that thing right at the apex of, you know, at the full force of his fall, you I had that legible two feet below. It wouldn't matter. All he would just hidden jumped off in the space, but because already fallen twenty feet broke both ankles. And then it was kind of horrible. I was actually up higher on the wall that dad come in from above to repel in and work on something. And I heard him yelling. But I thought he was sitting in hollering like, hey, how's it going type deal? And then I like it climbed out to the summit. And then when I hiked halfway back down. I got a voicemail from him saying that, you know, being like, oh, hey, it's Hans I think I'd just broke my Mateb. You know, basically like, oh, can you can you help or he'd already called search and rescue? And so or rescues already mobilized but search and rescue in Yosemite. It's it's really lead the really fast, but it's still sort of by the books, you know, it still takes kind of a lot of time. And so I was like oh, man. Like, maybe I should run back up and repel down, and like helped my buddy repel down the wall again or something like get out of here faster. Just because when search and rescues Mobile's. It's like a long time. And I was like if he's in a lot of pain, the sucks, you know, there as it. I really has I wound up calling search and rescue and talking to through them to see if there's anything I can do to help. But ultimately I wanted just going down because there wasn't really anything for me to do. So he's essentially just suspending for a while waiting for them to get him. Yes. So he basically just sat on a ledge with two broken legs for, you know, six hours or twelve hours or something. And then eventually they manage to haul them up to the summit. And then I think the helicopter them off the next morning already dark by then Yano is kind of horrible. But he's recovered by nonce. It's been five months or something. So he's back at it always climate. He's the manager of climbing gym. He's you know. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's broken bones on. Yeah. Yes. Could be worse. It just seems like no super grim though is like, but that's an example of sort of worst case bad log. Well, that's actually not worse case right now that yeah. That's not worse case that's bad luck. Yeah. That's like when you're sitting there if you're sitting there hanging off a ledge like that with two broken ankles for six hours. I mean that must be grim. But you don't get to you the pain swelling. And yeah, so I think he and his partner actually repel down one hundred feet to a slightly bigger ledge. So that he could lay on it and elevate his legs. And then I think there was some other climbers around the game jacket, you know, so he gets sort of bundle up, and like lay there and sort of manage. But yeah, I mean, it seems extremely character-building the life you choose. Yeah. Yeah. No. It's really I'm like that actually kind of makes me feel really bad because it just because like that kind of thing is really close to home because he's a friend, and it's just so like that bad. Yeah. Not can only imagine. Yeah. When when you think about your life, and you think about the stuff that you do do you d-? Is there a point where you feel like you won't do it anymore or point where you feel like you won't free solo anymore, or do you look like your friend who you were talking about who's older who's still free soloing and doing difficult pass? Do you think this is just your life forever? No, I I don't know. I honestly, I'm not sure I don't think it's my path forever necessarily just because they're just aren't always bigger and harder things to do. You know what I mean? L cap represented sort of the end of this very long road for me. I mean, I I sold many many things that were all sort of leading towards L cap. And then I finally did that and in the least right now, I can't really imagine anything more inspiring to me in terms of free soloing, plenty of other climbing challenges that I'm interested in like, I was just saying to the speed record or something that I did, you know this summer, but is this like winning a big hand in Vegas? We just like, okay. We got all the money. Let's get the fuck out here. No. Because that's that. That is too much luck. You know what? I mean. It's like it's more like realizing life dream, and you're sort of like, okay. Yeah. About I've seen. But I mean, you know, it's it's a similar idea where you're like. Okay. I well, no. It's not even it's yeah. Yeah. It's about analogy. So in terms of like, no, no more big crazy risks. Yeah. But that's the thing is that is not even I was never seen it as a big crazy risk. You know, I wasn't wasn't rolling the dice. I was training for this thing. And then I did it. And I'm just not sure if there's a bigger thing that's worth more effort, you know. So I mean, you know, as you see in the film, like the relationship with my girlfriend, and she's great, and we have this nice live together. And there's so much else in climbing. And you know, I mean, maybe I'll never never seek out big free soloing challenges again. I mean, we'll see now you're still relatively young terms of life itself. Do you do think maybe there could be something that you would enjoy as much as you enjoy climbing? Well, I mean, so no matter what I'll climb a whole life. I mean, I've forgotten how love climbing. I mean, even on the film jerem climate in the gym every day and just for the movement of it just to enjoy climbing. But I don't know. I'm I I have a foundation that I've worked with for the last five or six years supporting solo around the world. And so I could see putting more and more effort into that. I mean, that's something this satisfying in a way that climbing sort of isn't because it actually has a real tangible impact on the world, you know, me climbing is really fulfilling personally. But when it's all said and done it's like, it's just me going rock climbing. It doesn't really matter. But, but at least we're going with the foundation, it's like actually doing something real. What is your foundation is just the hanalani nation. But it's we've been supporting solar all this. I mean, if you want the the longer version is basically, you know, I was looking for some way to do something positive in the world. So I was looking to support environmental projects. And that was like there's no real point and supporting environmental projects that don't also support in the increase standard of living like help people in need in that sort of led me to solar projects, basically soy energy axis. And so that's what we in supporting the last five six years. And so what do you do with this project was domestically? It was mostly. It's just been my way of donating my money to to other projects that that supports all are so domestically in the US. I've been supporting this group crude alternatives, for example, in so I mean, I've done a few installations with them in in Sacramento in my hometown. Where busy low income family. Just gets a free home solar system on their house. And so it saves them the energy bills. And then also in terms of you know, carbon emissions is just it's good for the planet initially greening the grid. But and then the bigger. Potentially the bigger impacts have been project. We've been supporting in Africa just give access selects solar lanterns solar lights church. Cellphones? Busy like small scale systems. It was just a panel of battery in a few LED lights in a phone charger. But but those kinds of things can fundamentally change somebody's life because you know, east Africa people can spend up to a quarter of their income on kerosene the just to light their home. Which is totally outrageous. I mean, imagine spending that percent jury income just to have light after dark, you know, in like an Equatorial regions of the earth. It's dark for twelve hours a day. I mean, imagine if when the sun goes down your productive hours of done. You're just like I'm just going to sit in the dark for twelve hours. I think it's crazy. You know? Yeah. I mean, they're they're a billion people on earth living without access to power in. I mean, it's hard not for. I mean, I kind of see that as a waste of human potential to some extent. Like, it's just an unfortunate thing to think. There's so many people living without access to power. I mean, it's crazy. It is crazy, and it's really crazy in California. There's not more solar. When you think about how often at sunny here. No. I mean, it's it's totally though. I mean, at least it's it's growing very quickly in California at least. But I mean, really solar should be powering the whole I mean enough sunlight hits the earth. Every I don't know that the terms it's every like ten or fifteen minutes basically to power the earth for the year. If you're able to harness all the energy, it's kind of like, it's just such a cleaner simpler way of power in the earth. You know? Yeah. It really is an I mean one can only hope that that's going to. It's going to keep control. It's going to continue to evolve. The thing the thing that drives me absolutely crazy is that it's totally obvious that in one hundred years the earth will be run through solar and things like that. Because there's just so much energy spilling onto the earth, and it's free. And so the technology is only improving everybody's adopting it like in a hundred years. No question. Everything will be run from the sun. The thing that drives me insane. Is that there's so much resistance to from utilities from from, you know, consumer ignorance from whatever else, but people just don't totally get it and sort of opposed to it. And so, you know, half the world will be dragged kicking and screaming into the future. And you're sort of like if you just embrace it and get there in fifteen years instead of one hundred years all all the arguments about climate change all arguments about you know, environmental degradation, all this kinds of things would be mitigated to a large extent. And you sort of like is there downside to that? You know, like, even if you don't believe in climate change, even if you know, you denial the science behind it, you think it's all BS. It's like is there really a downside to just adopting. In the future sooner free. Yeah. It's like one of the things we're sort of like if it's gonna happen. Eventually, let's just do it now and save all the frigging hassle again there. I think it's the momentum of the current system. It's very difficult for people to just abandon establish ways of doing things, especially where so hooked on fossil fuel. I know. But like, it's just such a bummer that the status quo is such a thing. You know, people all of the way we do it. Let's just keep doing that. And it's just weird because there's so many things in life that changed so frequently you know, like, I mean, the world is constantly changing your like, let's just embrace the changes the matter the most and just do them faster. Well, you're talking about a guy who lives in a van and climbs rocks business people that have thousands and thousands of employees and millions. If not billions of money of dollars invested in these things. Yeah. Well, yeah. That's the problem. Apparent system. I know it's just too bad. Yeah. What it's it is. But it's inevitable. I agree with you. It's inevitable that we will embrace it and change. I think one of the more frustrating though, is because it's inevitable, and yet it's going to be dragged out so long you're sort of like why can't people just embracing of ability of it and just move forward. Well, I think they slowly are but things like that take time. I think one one big thing is going to be if they can ever figure out a way to solar power cars as you're driving them. So you never really have. Ever be thing fisker figured out. How to do it with your stereo, they figured out how to do it with your radio system and different car? It is a lot less energy. But it's just the roof panel, the roof panel, isn't that didn't we? They they're a weird company though. That's the company that. Many years ago. There was a big storm that hit the east coast, and they had a bunch of cars parked at a dock in the all exploded when the water hit them. And they realize way way way way, you can't get your things drenched in water like when the water hit a certain level, they had a severe flaw, and so they burst into flames and exploded. And there's this whole like doc filled with these fisker karma's that blew up, and they call them karma's, which is even more hilarious. You watch it exploding pretty bad as that's all bad all the way. Yeah. I think they've since fixed that, but yeah, it was a big flaw. That's I was just actually reading a reading this business management book. But he's talking about the Ford Pinto with a heaven frigate gas tanks to close. The bag bummer is basically your gas tank protected by inch plastic and you know. Yeah. Speech or it's actually I think killed lots of people because they were actually put into production, and then they're tons of accidents and the cars explode, and you're just. Just like man that's being a bad decisions in auto manufacturing. Yeah. The Pinto was a disaster. It wasn't good. But yeah, I think what they what they're capable of doing right now. I think you're right. I don't think you can power a car with solar panels completely. I mean, you certainly can from your house that was their initial claiming they announced it that it would power the whole car. And I was like that's bullshit. No. That's definitely bullshit. Yeah. Yeah. Two years ago. They said they could power the whole car with the roof August of two thousand sixteen I'm trying to find any updates. But that seems that seems totally outrageous. Because also I mean the future of car is born like a smaller car with. No like a glass reflect tesla style where it's sort of Ateret here. So roof create enough energy to power the car. No other vehicle so the US ever offered this capability I mean, so that might be true if it just sat parked in the sun for twelve hours, and then he drove home, right driveway. Yeah. You worked at night. Yeah. Turns all day and your commute's really short story shift. Yeah. Well, you would know better than anybody. If you're involved in solar. Yeah. I don't know. But I mean, the solar panels of today mean I have a buddy of mine that does a lot of backpacking and he carries around this. It's like a foldable solar charge of hers phone, and he. Folds it up and laze it out, and then puts a charger there. And then he uses that charge to charges phone, but he kill go twenty plus days with Justice thing. I mean, so I mentioned our expedition an article last winter. So that's twenty four hours of sunlight because you're an article in the in their summer and our entire expedition was run from solar. And so we'd actually taking a generator the other guys on the trip for oil for the generator, basically. And so it wasn't going to work. And so we're like, oh, I guess we'll have to try to use the solar which it sort of been our backup system, and it actually we ran the whole trip on solar everything worked in. So th they were filming. So they're bunch of cameras bunch of batteries, laptops, backing up drives, and then they were finding drone quite a bit for aerial footage as all kinds of beautiful. I mean, they basically ran this whole operation off solar. When one of the camera guys has got he's a good friend of mine, basically just had to wake up every two hours to move the panels around the tent as the sun tracks around the sky, you know, so that it's always in full sun. Right and yet asleep with the batteries and things to make sure things stay warm enough. But otherwise, I mean with us I mean because I really cold. Yeah. It's funny because you put your laptops and stuff into coolers like into ice chests to keep them insulated enough to stay warm as opposed to cold because the outside temperature so cold, but it was cool though. Because. You know, that we didn't have to run this loud, stinky, annoying generator like, you just have your panels working fulltime. Yeah. That's one of the weirdest things about like Tesla's when you drive it in there's no, yeah. No. It's awesome. Yeah. Yes. Still more peaceful. Yeah. I mean, but that's the future as if you mentioned a city, that's all silent electric cars. No missions. I mean, imagine how much more pleasant than pedestrian experiences when? Yeah. When it's not like diesel exhaust right next to you on the city streets. Yeah. You don't hear the car that runs you over? No. But you still do that. Because something like the noise is the tires like you still hear cars. Yeah. But it's just so much more mellow. You don't hear like an engine like ripping right by you? Yeah. I think it's inevitable that we figure out a way that you can just power everything from solar. And including cars as you're driving them. I mean, the only make sense as the technology improves mean? Yeah, we'll see. We'll see. I mean, there's development in solar film sort of windows. Imagine office building where the windows are all producing power. I mean, if you think about that with the car if is just like a glass dome over you. But it's all sorted producing power. Yeah. No. That'd be. I mean, that's pretty amazing. I have a watch on solar power. That's not a lot of power. Yeah. But still I mean, you don't really need any batteries for it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I do when I was a kid. I'd like that. Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty that's pretty straightforward though. It's a small amount of power that that's drawing when you got involved in this how much preparation did you do? I mean what what was. What was the the motivation like how to the foundation? Yeah. I mean, honestly like I said I was just looking to do something positive for the world. And so she exploring options you wind. So I was gonna start donating significant percentage, my income to to environmental, nonprofits. And then I decided that I should do it in sort of public facing lay in in the form of the foundation. Just because I felt like, you know, I'm never going to have nearly as much money as as real philanthropic organization. You know, like the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. Like, I'll never have. I'll never have real dollars like that. But I do sort of have this platform like some sort of public, persona, whatever. So I was like, well, at least if I donate things, I can sort of leverage that in the right way to contribute. I don't know. Basically try maximize the good that I'm doing. And so yes. And then I just started researching organizations that I felt like we're doing great work. And the that led me solar, basically does most of your income come from sponsors and from public appearances like how it was mostly sponsors. And then it sort of has shifted into sponsors, and sort of one off thing. So like a published a book a few years ago. So there's an advance from that. And like the film has made a little money. The, you know random little things in the now, it's also sort of split with corporate speaking type commercial opportunities as well. So sponsorship is still probably the biggest thing for me to like the north as being my biggest sponsor and most important sponsor for me. But then now it's sort of split between a bunch of different sources is so the public speaking things of these corporate appearances, you just go and get just talked to them about free solo climbing. And yeah, talking about climate talks about preparation or. I mean depends on what what somebody needs really depends with organizations I've spoken to a bunch of. Venture capital type firms about risk-taking and risk management. Or how interesting, you know. So they just look at you as like sort of inspiration mix things out for the company. Yeah. I mean, I'd like to think that it's a slightly more interesting talk than the average business speaker, you know, certainly more beautiful images. You know? Like, if I if I give a nice lad show Jaffer bed. It's you know. I mean, it's beautiful it's different. And but I think that it's still gets back to some of the same elemental issues. You know, talking about the I mean. Yeah. I mean, how do you manage risk in your life? And what's worth it? And how do you choose? It's it's a smart move to for company to just kind of like vary. The kind of input that gets to the the employee's. Like, give them something. That's kind of spectacular and interesting, and yeah. Now when you look at the future. Do you do you have a map of what you would like to be doing do, you are you just sort of enjoying your experience here or do you? Do you have grand plans? I don't really have grand plans. I mean, I've never really had a grand plan. It's always been that. I love climbing. I wanna do it. Well, I wanna push myself. And I think that's kinda my grand plan. I mean, I'm I'm still trying to be a better climber. I'm still trying to grow the foundation do something more significant through it actually hired a full time executive director this year. This woman who's running a for me, and we're just gonna awesome. So actually sort of ramping it all up a little bit that was slightly in response to the film because that's sort of figured that. You know, this is like a moment that try to take advantage of it use it to do something more positive. And so so that's that's sort of exciting for me in. It's definitely not a grand plan. But it's you know, it's just sort of all incremental incremental progress. So when you're doing all these climbs you have a lot of time when you're takes time to do these things. Yeah. So is this when you start thinking about these ideas about thinking about like how much you enjoy being out here in nature, and what about the environment import? Yeah. For sure I mean, I spend most of my time in the most. Places on earth. Yeah. Spending most Mattamy, national parks and public lands in general. And so I'm in all these beautiful places. And it's like, yeah. I mean, I care about them. I went to you know, if I have a family someday, I want to be able to take my kids to Saint places and have them appreciate the land in the same way. I mean, the so like you said the last five years for can the entire forest is basically died from from pine beetles will all the pine trees, basically died because pine beetles. And so like just in the last five years, I'd say the u somebody valley floor has sort of transformed from a dense pine forest to sort of this open oak forest. It's like totally different character. He's all the pine trees have died. And then they've been cutting them all down to reduce fuel, Ed. So they're busy logging trucks with pine trees leaving the park nonstop, which you know, which I which I totally support. I'm not like anti logging the dead trees because you may as well use them if they're already dead, and I definitely don't wanna see somebody valley burst into flames. So it makes sense. But at the same time, I mean, you know, that's a real. That's a very direct result of climate enemies ten years of drought in California combined with with. Shorter winners. It's like you just have these beetles decimating the entire forest. And I don't know. I mean, that's that's sucks. You know? Like, I don't I don't wanna see the whole for his die. And is that an invasive beetle or is it a beetle? Well, I think is invasive in that I don't know specifically with you seminar, it could be wrong about this. But with a lot of the pine beetle problems in in Colorado that has more to do with a shorter winter and and warmer temperatures because normally the larva would die through the winter freeze, but you know, basically, they're not freezing the same extent. And so the population explodes. And then you wind up with all the trees dying. You'll we were there, and we were in big bear a few years back when they're having a real issue with it, and they were having real significant fire scares, and it was it was nerve wracking. You somebody who was like on fire for most of the summer is crazy for the whole southern part of the park was like burning for months, and that's you know, I mean fire is a natural part of the ecosystem, and the, you know, to some extent, you're like normal. But it's like it's not normal right now because the fuel load is so high it's like so dry. It's just it's too much. You know, and I just. Would love for my kids someday to be able to appreciate the park the way I have for so long, and I just don't wanna see you don't burn. Yeah. When I was when we were in big bear. That's my feeling. It was it was it was sad that you're seeing something that was probably this rich green lush forest. That's now really weird gray and dry. But it was also like your around kindling like you're basically in a big stack of dry wood before it gets lit on fire, and you're surrounded by and there's you know innovate hits up there. It's I mean, I've we've been evacuated where I live several times twice actually come close a couple of other times. And it's it's terrifying. Because key southern California when it goes it goes. Yeah. And there's just no stopping it. Now. I mean, that's yeah. No. I mean, that's like, yeah. This is why I'm like this. Why we transition a solar sooner, you know, because it's like if it helps at all with these kinds of issues than worth worth the effort, you know, it's going to happen. Anyway, it's like you may as well just do it now. So this thing that you were doing an Arctic. You're filming something there's well. Do you do a lot of that? Now what I trip like that for an expedition. I mean that was in this expedition, and so that's where they get a lot of their brand content. And so it makes sense to film a trip like that. And we are somewhere with nobody ever goes. We were doing I sense of peaks that have never been climbed. So kind of makes sense to document that to some extent. But in general, I think I'll try to balance my just pure climbing with with filming. Yes, while I was gonna ask you like you don't want to tell me everything now. On your head every week. Now that stuff drives me crazy. I'm not into that. But when you're in the most beautiful place know, sometimes it makes sense. Well, we're something especially for someone like north face. I mean, their whole company is about really exploration people out. Yeah. When when you're in that sort of situation where you're filming these things like is it difficult to be to act normal to be to to be yourself. When if he's if you saw free solar, you know, that I only have one mode, and that's just that's just me which I mean, when when I see the film a lot of them like, oh, maybe I need to censor myself. Like, maybe a on. They should be a little more thoughtful about what I say. But, but no, I mean, I'm pretty much always I just I just do me and a few filming or not that just get. I mean, I'm more mindful of profanity, and if you things like that if I know that I mean filmed right now, I'm being watched and I try to be slightly more respectful, especially if I see kids in an audience at definitely tried not to curse, right, but. But overall, my not, I just always stay my mind. You know? Well, that's what I was talking about earlier when I was asking like the difference between you when you're being your your love of this is your love of nature and of being in these beautiful national forests in public lands and experiencing these amazing environments, but then sometimes that gets sort of perverted when you filming everything, and you've got people just everything becomes this sort of presentation and everything becomes professional. And I think that's the risk with filming. I think with with free solo. I think they didn't amazing job of of maintaining. Yes. The character. You know, the nuance. I not pervert in any way. No. I think too. I think it was amazing. Yeah. I mean, I think I think they did a really good job of that. They and it's still it's still sort of understated. You know, even though it's like this spectacular feet. It's still sort of subdued in its own ways. It's just sort of lays it out you. Let's you just sort of judge for yourself. And just well, you know, it's impossible. To be anything, but spectacular? So you don't really have to dress it up. Yeah. Well, that's the beauty of filming anything. And you somebody is. I mean, it's honestly just one of the most beautiful. It's like putting a pretty dress on a Ferrari. Like, leave it alone. It's done. You've already got it. Have you ever thought about doing some like live journal from the field or some sort of a podcast or something along those lines? No. I mean, should I. Yeah. No. That sounds sounds like she's much work. Well, a podcast. It'd be easy. No. But you have to be able to interview people properly. No. You don't know my friend Bill Burr has a podcast where he just talks. He's he does a fucking great. But he's a comedian y'all get Monday morning podcast, but you just sitting down. I mean, you could go off notes you could go off of and just I think people would love that. If you just you never thought about it. I mean in some ways, I do have strong opinions about a lot of things by just ranted about environmental issues and similar things that I care about that. I would be kind of fun. I think you'd have a significant impact to especially you have such a large platform. Now. I don't know. I don't know. I'll consider that's the first time. I ever mentioned. I'm sort of like, you know, think about the mom notorious for trying to talk people into podcast, but I really think in your case, it'd be a great idea. I mean, you really tell everyone to do it. But you should really do it. Well, people get mad at me. You keep told people to do it. But I think you if you had a portable unit like a one of these players, you can just record a show recording your phone is very easy. You could you. I mean, we've done a bunch of them were just the voice notes from the phone just talking to the voice notes from the phone, and you can make a podcast off that and it's really easy to upload. But just saving. Maybe that's my future sitting in your van, you know, afterwards and just talking about things, you're working on with your foundation talk. You about a spectacular moments during climbs where you're seeing things, and you know, talking about what it's been like doing this tour for free. You know, no. That's a thing about it. I mean, that's interesting. Interesting way to put it out there. I mean, I think it's great idea, man. All right. We'll get it out. Get your send me a little MP three recording. We definitely do that. But we could also help you like, I can promote it for you. Put it on Twitter. Let. Awards. Yeah. We'll see if if I ever actually do anything like that. But no, it's an interesting idea. I mean, it's an interesting way to like share she ideas better. Well, it's the reason why I'm saying this is because you have this very specific. Very unusual life, and you also have all these ideas about the environment and have all these ideas about using it for positive reasons. And and all hoping to make the world a better place on having making an impact with your Dacian. I really think you could look you're the best thing with your foundation would be to make make an exposed to more people. And it would most certainly do that. Yeah. Yeah. No. It's I'll talk to my executive director about that too. I mean that would be an interesting way to to at least it's fair to care about. Yeah. Exactly. It's just sitting. And it'd be kinda cool. You know, like like you at the base of a mountain just talking about this, and climbing and your personal thoughts in that moment. And could be do she, you know, but it'd have to well. Well done you'd have to be a douchebag for it to be Dushi. Well danger that's the danger. Just never I mean, nobody thinks that they're the do you think you'd become a dish? Never know. You never know when you're like, I'm just going to record monologues of me rambling about ideas. That's that's starting to trend towards Dushi shenice for how well the slippery. Is you could always review it or have you girlfriend review it? Yeah. That's so you don't have to do it live. Just you know. And then she could say, okay. That part we rant and rave about diesel. You might want to yank that no. No. I mean or maybe not. Yeah. No, I feel strongly about I'll ran rave about easel. It's just gross. Yeah. I mean, imagine when electric trucks like long haul trucking. Okay. Well, Tesla's already on there on the ball with. Yeah. Well, hopefully, I kind of don't care who comes to market. I that stuff just want somebody to start selling a lot of them. She wants got just wanted to change to happen quickly. It doesn't matter who does it or how it's like it just needs to happen. You've got a very significant voice right now. You know, I really think that you could make a big impact with a lot of people and the thing about these impacts it's sort of like the butterfly effect. Right. It's like, you never know. What changes you have no idea? How many people are going to hear you just from this podcast? And the things you're saying about solar in about. And and people thinking about like, yeah. Maybe maybe I can do something. And then boom, it just makes these little incremental steps, and then they carry on momentum. And you never know. Well, that's very that's the positive way of looking at it. You know, I just think cool to like in notes from wherever you are just I mean, he doesn't you don't have to have the beautiful thing is too. It doesn't have to have any kind of structure. You don't have to have anytime you do one for fifteen minutes. If you want and people will listen to it, you can do it for an hour. Now that that might be a little micro hits like little rambles for sure do it as long as you want. It looked like I said the beautiful thing about things like this is that there's no there's no real structure to it where you have to do something. Yes. You just decide like in a lotta ways. That's that's the nature of climbing to where you never have to do anything. You just find what inspires you you worked towards that. You do when you're excited about it. I'm totally into that kind of thing. Because as actually that's I've always cry contrast to climbing from other mainstream sports like that because with climbing. It's like the objective is always you're always inspired by you, do it whenever you're ready as opposed to having to perform on the right day. The right time, I love that lifestyle where you're like, you know, today's my day or today is not my day. If like leading up to you free soloing L cap, if there was sort of a documented audio journal one trials to watch the film, people are this is you're just wedding. Their appetite means a beautiful film. It's fantastic. But there's to people like to more stuff interesting, and it's it entirely up to you. What you want to share don't wanna share? And especially if you do it this way, you don't have an executive producer? You don't have directors. You know, totally with that. I definitely can handle too much. Just you just you just talking about stuff and your specific vision the things that you'd like to talk about your specific message. That's one of the things that people really really enjoy about something like a podcast is that they know there's no one telling you what to say. Or what to do that? You know? Here's Alex Alex is sitting in his van, you know, drinking a Cup of tea just with a iphone talking. It's hard to imagine. You would find the interstate? I'll tell you to. Not really surprised. I bet though, tell them tons of tell them Jamie, people would be listening to it pal. Jamey for sure. No, no. But I'm I'm slightly worried. I'm going to be I'm gonna miss my plane. Okay. Yeah. We gotta get you out of here. Yeah. Thank you very much. Thanks for being here. Really? Appreciate it. Excellent. Yeah. It's fun to chat again. Because I remember last time I was on the show is the full experience for it was one of the first times I've done anything like that. And it was like it was pretty Meg. I was like, whoa. No idea. What I'm doing? This is so much and like now feel so much more comfortable and fun to chat. You know? It was Greg thought it was great. It was really great. What I'm saying? Feels like coming of age to come back and chatting. That's really nice beautiful. Very cool. I appreciate it. Thanks. Appreciate it. Thank you, everyone for tuning into the podcast. And thank you to our sponsors. Thank you to the cash app. Download the cash app for free in the app store or the Google play market. And when you download the cash app and to the referral code. Joe Rogan one word you'll receive five dollars in the cash apple send five dollars to Justin brands fight for the forgotten charity. 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