Everyday Buddhism 30 - The Buddha Sat Right Here with Dena Moes
Asia <music>. Tom welcome to every day buddhism making every day. Better by applying the proven tools found in buddhist concepts <music> welcome to episode thirty of everyday buddhism making every day. Better we know this week was a week of miles stones for me and this podcast really the podcast exceeded one hundred thousand downloads this past monday i didn't check but i think it's pushing like a hundred and three year a hundred and four now but <hes> also i recorded the special guest episode with de mos. That's coming up next as my thirtieth podcast episode and this is an an exciting moment for me. I've been working on this. Since january. I completed the first draft of my book on friday. Yay a and it's now being read for editing by two awesome people. I wanna give a shout out to now for their help. With this <hes> julie mccown my good friend and christopher kaku lebow <hes> who is also a bright on buddhist lay minister and <hes> who has his own sanga in salt lake city utah salt lake <hes> buddhist fellowship ship <hes> and julie mccown also is the author of ireson lily of three part novel that she wrote with her sister so really awesome people working on this editing for me and then the next step after we clear these two eagle eagle eye readers will be final editing layout and publishing and i'm pretty excited so then let's move on into this episode in this episode. You'll join me in a conversation with dina mos- a hollywood borne yale educated midwife with a bachelor of arts and literature a master of science in nursing her book. The buddhist sat right here. A family odyssey through india. India and nepal is a memoir of adventure motherhood and love woven into a spiritual journey. Dina's writing has has been published in the daily beast ravishingly midwifery today the mindful world grown and flown and the wisdom daily. I know you'll delight dina's easy conversation style as much as you will hear writing when you get her book because i'm sure you're going to run out and do that. After you hear <unk> our conversation as you'll hear in the conversation coming up we had some laughs we talk debouche philosophy. We talked the difference between between the indian and u._s. Cultures the awesome experiences of being in the presence of accomplish tibetan buddhist teachers including his his holy holiness the dalai lama which dido houdini met when when she was in dharamsala so without any more introduction introduction. I'm gonna go to the episode conversation. We recorded with dina and they'll be another introduction there too today. I'm excited to talk with with very a very special guest. De mos the author of the buddhists at right here the story of her family's odyssey through india nepal. I have to admit you know when dina's publicist i reach out to me back in february which was prior to the book's publication date in april. I was was early sure. I was even going to read this book. The opening line in the email was quote in two thousand fourteen exhausted mother other dina mos- through offer supermom cape fulltime job after school dance classes for the kids dinner on the table etc etc to begin an bold spiritual adventure unquote you know when i read i was thinking it was much more about a mom breaking free and this was really going to be about moms talking to other moms and it wasn't going to be something that would speak to this particular podcast audience but the email went on to explain how dean in her husband are buddhists and they took their young girls out of school and traveled for eight months through india and nepal at this point. I'm intrigued and i'm saying saying to myself. Why in the world would they do such a thing so now if for nothing else but curiosity i'm interested in this book and i'm gonna share something about being a podcast host. People write books and their publicist reach out off with offers to said galleys and review copies all the the time so for someone like me who loves to read and has an insatiable curiosity. There's this is like a perk almost too good to be true so most times. I answer sure i'll take a look at the book of course it just adds way too much reading that i can get that i get done in a reasonable amount of time and get back to them and schedule so a podcast. If i was even interest but in this case the email went on to explain how the most family trip was inspired by dina's dina's desire to connect to the places where the buddha lived and taught and to immerse themselves and tibetan indian and nepali cultures and to expand dan they're understanding what it means to be buddhist and live the spiritual life and they also talked about how she met with adriana reality is so for me coming from badgering ana practitioner background. I'm very interested so i'm getting pretty close to convince. At least i'm going to read this book but the clincher was her publicist. Sent me a link to dina's website and i read what was there and her blog page. The blog paid aide was titled sort of a blog and i was hooked. She was my kind of writer funny real in your face so i wrote back to her publicist said yes send me a review copy now. I'm very interested so fast forward today. After reading your book twice i am so you know kind of a fan girl for dna because of a writing because of water writing reveals about her integrity or warmth her humor and most importantly for this podcast because of what her writing demonstrated about how she brought buddhist teachings and practices into into her every day and didn't keep them silent away for retreats or even special pilgrimage time so anyone who's traveled traveled india nepal will absolutely love this book anyone who wants to travel to india or nepal will love this book and anyone anyone who travels especially those travel with young children will love this book and guess what those of you who aren't travels travelers. Will i love this book to. I am nadda traveler and i loved his book. Although admittedly i loved it for many things other than the travel sense of but it was as much about real life personal and relationship discoveries as it was spiritual and travel discoveries freeze and this is what i hope to share in our conversation today and oh by the way at the risk of taking even more time in this introduction the buddhist buddha sat right here. The book is the winner of multiple book. Awards number won the gold medal in travel essay two thousand nineteen indie indie publishers award a first place indie book awards winner for travel next generation and the international book award winner are in eastern religion. All those awards are very well deserved. I can't remember a book that has delighted me. Engaged me taught let me and made me laugh all at the same time frequently in the same page paragraph and sometimes in the same sentence dina deena is a wonderful writer. Who's writing is described as magical and i wholeheartedly agree so dina welcome to the everyday buddhism awesome podcast. I am honored to have you join me for a conversation so much. I'm delighted to be here with you today so dana. I'm gonna ask you personally that first question. I had about your family trip. When i read your publicist email you know why in the world world would they do such a thing why dina really why if an exhausted supermom wants to escape the stress of jobs kids cooking wouldn't hauling everyone across the across the world for nine months make you even more exhausted. I was exhausted just thinking about it well. It was this exhausted super. Moms bucket list dreams to take that kind of trip. It and i decided i didn't want to wait until my kids were grown to do. Since there are really no guarantees about the future anyway and <hes> i just really crave the experience of breaking all the routines that seems to have sort of pins me down into this lifestyle that i was not crazy about so taking my family traveling while it was a lot of work <hes> i was so inspired to do it and i was so fired up about our vision of going to india and nepal into it's live among the tibetan refugee communities and visit the sacred places where the buddha lived and talk and sat under a tree <hes> <hes> that inspiration really carried me alan. I'm excited about project exhaustion disappears. That's the perfect explanation i get that. I don't think i get it enough that i would have done it but i get it <hes> i don't. I don't want to give too much away about you know there are some plot twists in the book and some revelation so i'm not going to give a lot of it away. I'm not going to give any of it away. If i can help nope it <hes> but despite my initial incredulous nece your family trip to india nepal was in sort of in character in the adventurous this character of your family or at least you <hes> but i read you know in the book. You talked about how you traveled every summer together. <hes> not this this long of course had a family ban went to burning man festivals and on and on so it really struck me as a wonderful full gift you and your husband adam gave your girls it. It's a gift ended a heritage that will arm them for success in life despite any life's challenges changes. Have you seen how that has changed them. Oh my goodness. Yes i mean that is the other piece was that we wanted to give the girl's the experience because they have lived we call it the california bubble you know we live in northern california in his tweet little college town and and <hes> there's a very particular lifestyle and they hadn't really gotten outside of that to see the rest of the world and also <hes> in this small northern california town. There's not a lot of buddhist and the buddhist community is very small and and my husband and i are very you know voted buddhist practitioners and the kids kind of grew up thinking gosh long dow do this weird king the other kids parents don't really do and shoe go to india and nepal where they could see you know how many the people in the world are hindu and buddhist and and you know spiritual seekers and their saudis and holy men lamas and monks <hes> it really allows them to be connected to the global community of buddhists in a really powerful way and it it really really affected them profoundly. My eldest daughter she <hes> she went off to college last fall and before she went she sat for her first ten day talks and retreats and she did that the two weeks before college started and i was so proud of her that was choice that she made and <hes> you know both girls now now they know what is and they've met teachers and day they just have a larger perspective of spiritual hostilities in the world of the exactly and actually i saw you could see that even sort of the beginnings of that because in your book you take entries from your eldest daughter bellas diary career journal and there were so many first of all cute things were in those injuries but also very profound of by by the way <hes> <hes> daughter is a great writer to at a wonderful observer of life and it seemed like she really many many times you could just tell tells she she she just got it and she just totally got it and and i was so impressed by those injuries i also. I think it was a stroke stroke of genius for you to to share those. I wonder how she felt about that. She was awesome about it. She when i decided to write this book after we got back from our trip after we were just kind of trying to get back to normal life and couldn't stop thinking about everything that had happened to us on our journey and just mm started toying with the idea of writing a book she actually handed over her diary and she says here mom you can use this as however you like impeach together details news excerpts you can do whatever you want and <hes> i decided to put excerpts in because her voice it was just so fresh and funny and <hes> created a nice contrast to my voice throughout the narratives and so i was so real to have those in their very gracious about it well that was on that's neat that she i mean even in some of the things where she admitted that she had fallen in love with some of the of the young boys out she may come to regret that but but <hes> it was wonderful to read that it was iraq. It was totally refreshing. I got so i look forward to her little entry so that was great so as i mentioned in introducing producing you in the book for many reasons. I'm not a traveler. I am an iron <unk> cheer traveler and i think the t today the world comes to our door you know through the internet travel shows documentaries like even your book. <hes> i have a public facebook group in a virtual song songa <hes> that i started sprung off from this podcast and you know i mean millions not millions thousands thousands of people all over the world through facebook who want a friend me and many in nepal and india too bad. It's just a it's. It's it's it's it's awesome really <hes> so oh you know you do have to travel. I think to really get the experience but it's wonderful to be able to get the experience even if you're not a travel traveler but you know what one thing i wanted to share with you and i and one thing i wanted to share with the podcast audience by reading a little bit from dina's book is because i'm not a traveler i've always sorta shamefully identified with what you wrote about how you sense that may be the tabet took pityana's instead of us taking pity on them for living and sorta hard conditions and they in fact. We're taking pity on us for <hes> kind of a different thing for material comforts. I'm gonna read a little sense of this. According to buddhist teachings people born into material luxury tend to squander their lives away worrying about protecting and seeking to increase material gains none of which which lasts or come with us when we die we bring only our karma the energetic results of our actions into the future. I almost sense that tabet. <unk> took pity on us westerners who easily fall apart without our excessive material comforts. Our reliance on our abundance silence of things makes it hard for us to understand that things do not actually 'cause happiness might tibetan friends. Often reminded handed me that people in the west suffered too. It's just a different kind of suffering boy. You really nailed that with that passage. I you think <hes> do you have anything more yeah. I have a lot to say about that. <hes> there's just so much to say i mean first of all well you know when we arrived in india as california family <hes> just trying to slip into the culture and live like the people there live and follow the norms of the culture and just be within immersed in the communities. One of the things <hes>. I noticed and my kids noticed right away. Was that people if people don't have a lot they seem to be a sense of contentment when people had their spiritual life and their communities <hes> you you know richly around that and that it wasn't material things that there's deeper things like spiritual tradition russian family connections sense of place in heritage and culture that <hes> money can't buy and my daughters i picked up on this right away and then you know when i was living up in dharamsala. That's that's when i wrote that passage judge. I was also thinking a lot about you know western privilege and white privilege and how <hes> you know tricky tricky it is to be a pilgrim in india who knows that when we get tired enough and cranky enough we can without our passports and get on a plane and come back to the united states to the to all to comfort that we have here and so i was acutely aware of that and and what was interesting is that when i tried to talk about that with mike betton buddhist friends they really just laughed and said yeah well. You know you were born in the west in this life. You know you have white privilege this life. You're not taking that wish you either yeah. Yeah you know colleges such a mind opening moment for me because you know i held onto this identity like oh. I'm a privilege white person you need yet but in india they saw me like yeah. You're white privilege this this time around and look at you. You know how hard it is for you to be comfortable in. It's so hot and the bus ride. It's so long and crowded and <hes> yeah it was. It was a really interesting perspective. Yeah you know that is awesome that you i it takes away. Our sense of sureties certainly <hes> even though those of us who practice buddhism understand this concept to have hit at that level is is an entirely different thing right exactly we a and then the reminder is don't squander our white privilege you know like me are in this very cribbage physician right right now in this place where we have money and we have movement. We can travel if we want. We can stay home if we want and again you know the this inquiry is what are we gonna do with that like. What are we gonna. Power weakening us are privileged could benefit beings and that's what i've been working with insides gotten back wow that well that could lead us to a whole other discussion like in. What way are you working with that but i'd like to get a little more into the book but yeah yeah that's like maybe we'll have a part to okay and talk about how okay that surfing <hes> but you know that that's absolutely true. You know that kept it kept coming back as a theme to this was clearly on your mind. It was working within you. You know i could i can almost feel it as it kept emerging as a theme throughout your book sort of that contrast between the way we live here or the way we live as our privileged white americans pickens right and the way of life in india <hes> or or you know the paul and that's that's something the thing i also think a lot about even as an armchair traveller early in the book i highlighted a couple of cents sentences that stood out <hes> highlighted this the quote the overarching feeling in india is of life not death. The country is teeming with children thriving even though no-one hovers over them with hand sanitizer and baby wipes in case they touch anything unquote and you see you're laughing at your own work. I'm telling you you're funny <hes> but this is coming from <hes> from a midwife so you certainly know but that that those two sentences shouted the contrast for me between our two worlds yet as travelers avelar in their world you and your family met discomfort headman with frequent episodes of sickness and conditions that made me cringe reading eating about them. I can barely stand twenty four hours without electricity. When the power goes out so the big question. I have to ask you said you working before before for you know to benefit all beings from your white privileged status but after your journey are you now more comfortable ruble with discomfort and lack of control great question <hes> you know i almost named the book <hes> what my little indian travel motto was which was relax. Absolutely nothing is under control. Yes i can on your website and that's always been one of my favorite like memes. Go ahead. I was almost the name of the book <hes> yes most it definitely <hes> getting out of my routines. <hes> of you know raising children and driving around getting everybody eh their activities and you know planning three course dinner you know organic dinner every night working etc breaking out of all those is routine and traveling through a place that really throws everything sort of up upon his sort of up ends everything all all the assumptions that we have about life in community india is just such a different kind of culture and clearly <hes> yeah yeah i really learned to surrender control. That bat is definitely one of the things that came through my journey over time in india and this feeling of letting go and being more accepting with what is and not always trying to meet some kind kind of expectation that is maybe a false expectation that i've pulled from you know comparing myself other mothers or you know certain cultural you know the sort of advertising consumer culture. We're still immersed in here in the united states and get down to the route of what really matters within a family which is connection which is hearing other just being present for each other. Oh when i came back from india there was a lot less structures activities. <hes> things planned way in advance and more time to just just kinda beat each other and that that really helped my mental state and i think it's just a healthier way to live yeah. That's an excellent answer and you know you just touched on like three were to at least major buddha's teachings about out you know being aware of what is what is happening now and you know let's face it. You know the second noble truth that the buddha taught what was that the reason why we are discontent or dissatisfied or have duka. Is that <hes> it's because we're grabbing on to grabbing grabbing at a grasping at something something we want. We don't have or something. We want to get rid of that. We do have so you know you. You're oh you know. You're the life in in your story. <hes> you know yeah amazing who how that all got woven woven in there without you making it so obvious right. He <hes> our culture here in the united states. I mean everything about the culture support that kind of grasping and desiring. I mean capitalism runs on desire their desire for more things and <hes> you go to a place in india and people just don't have a lot of things you know. They're just not available unbearable. So what are we doing is dead. Yeah yeah that that's so true we could. That's another whole tangent. We could get on which i'd love to <hes>. We got a lot setting up for part two here but another theme though that captured my attention was the and this is a theme that i i'm thinking you have coming recurring throughout the book is the contrast between the way families and couples live and the way children are raised. You know in india india extended families live together. You know they have cooks and all that seems pretty cool to me to at a and it seems kids are raised by like everyone. It's kind of like the old you know hillary clinton. It takes a village thing. It was like they they didn't have to think about that. They that's what that's how they do it there and yet you know we're all these isolated little kink kingdoms. You know family dems. You know two people in house house and then no wonder it's so crazy because we're all trying to do everything in all trying to do everything according to those expectations we were talking about so another big question and i have to ask is now that you've been back for five years. Does that still feel like the way things should be the way things should be that we should be more extended it is dan lewis yeah yeah lutely. I mean that was a major efficieny. I had in india is that <hes> and there's so much being written right now about modern motherhood and the isolation and anxiety overwhelm of working mothers mothers in our culture and it's exactly because our model of okay one woman does everything and her man helps help sir robert. It's not stable and it's not even normal in the world like you think that housing dr then you go to a place like india and you see oh. Oh my gosh this has fiction dolts two children. That'd be great ratio. You know even if mom is working someone someone home cooking someone taking the kids somewhere not all on her and <hes> yeah that was a huge awakening awakening for me and and it really gave me a lot of feeling of self forgiveness for you know the struggles else that i had is a lonely isolated working mother before we went to india and it's definitely something that i still hold as you know as a as a goal that our culture really needs to shift to support families and i think i mean honestly i'm thinking that with you know the cost of housing stories and things are getting just harder <hes> that it'll start making people they together together. It'll it'll keep families more together. Keep extended families more together and <hes> i. I hope you're right that. I hope that's i'm. I'm not so sure i'm as positive and hopeful as you are <hes> but i <hes> not that i'm a total cynic but i hope that is sort of were the evolution is taking us. You know coming. I i'm sixty six years old and i'm coming at this on the other side of things i guess you'd say sort of the other <hes> generation away maybe and you know we've just gone through <hes> having my mother-in-law go into assisted living and so many times through all of that when when she was living alone and when we were trying to figure out how to deal with everything <hes> with her and dementia and <hes> it. I couldn't stop thinking that you know we really need. We should have all been together this. This stuff wouldn't happen. If we were all together. I mean not that they wouldn't go yeah but but at least you'd be with them the whole thing and you wouldn't have to hurry up and trying to figure out how am i going to deal with this. You know because we're not. We're not feeling guilty about everything that you do. You know there's that too so i see it from that side of it to it. I think it it just pointed to the same aim problem definitely another thing and this is more of another little buddhist teaching you you gave without without knowing it probably or maybe you did <hes> what what i felt from the way you described this sort of culture. The family culture of six adults living in a house with two children was the it was the people in india lived was with sort of almost the complete incorporation of interdependence as a reality. You know we talk about ritual concept. You know it's a it's. It's a it's a philosophical <hes> concept in or to teaching and we're trying to understand it yeah but i keep thinking that in the west particularly here in the u._s. are refuge. You know our security is is comfort in a misguided got it sent wingers control everything and always i sensed your awareness in your the way you wrote of this tension between the spiritual and the every day net the spiritual is found in the every day beyond our comfort and control like you wrote an eye it quoted this out of all the places we would go in india but dyer was one of the most impoverished and at the same time the most holy early india teaches me and this was a <hes> highlighted in your book. India teaches me again and again that the categories into which i liked too neatly divide things don't hold up unquote you know i know we can't some summit up all in a sentence but what was your our primary teaching from the pilgrimage us already hinted at that like not being able to control everything was one of them and that sort of was talking about putting everything in neat little boxes. What would you say your primary teaching or primary teachings. Were that as a really hard question. I know and you might be able to fill various is so many <hes> well. The guy is very special experience. <hes> in case listeners don't know both guy. I mean the plates of awakening and it's the place where the buddhist sat under a tree until he awakened to enlightenment and that site his this beautiful world heritage site today. It's a park and there's this huge called the mapo d. tackle this tower that car and all day long every day hundreds of thousands of buddhists programs all over the world descend on the park and spend spend the day there the combatants are doing the hundred thousand prostration the koreans are chanting the <hes> you know theropod in four for its monk from burma or they're on and on and it's just ish huge melting pot of buddhists from all over the world and everyone anyone's sharing the space and <hes> being there was incredibly powerful for our family. We spent two weeks there and now it's towards the beginning of our trip <hes> to get there. You have to travel into one of the poorest state media and just outside the gates of the park. There are bigger and there's very impoverished neighborhoods of the surrounding village and so that stark contrast <hes> is confronting and <hes> i mean there's just so much to tell about that with the long section of it in the book <hes> and we met you know different spiritual teachers from so many different lineages there and we had dinner every night at this <hes> tibetan restaurant where we could talk with people <hes> the overarching feeling even with all of that going on. It's still busy and bustling international. The feeling of reverend is so incredible and <hes> that just moved. It just moves you like you. Don't even have you don't have to believe anything you don't have to belong to particular lineage but if you go to a place like that and you're just surrounded by that much devotion and intention <hes> everyone they are creating for not everyone they're chanting sutras mantras everyone there is vowing to the buddha the power of that much collective devotion the truth for you. It's very beautiful. Wow i'm sorry keep going now. Go ahead and then a perfect lead into what i wanted to talk about. Is you know you mentioned three key words. It's <hes> <hes> devotion intention intention and the rituals <hes> all those things done with pure sincerity not like because because someone else's doing kind of its they've grown up with it means it means everything to them and i realized that i am well well more than somewhat prejudiced by you know twenty plus year background and buddhist study and practice with much of it being in the tibetan tradition and but i love how you did that interweaving of the teachings that you got from different llamas and you know wandering sadhus and rituals rituals and everything else buddhist hindu and every in every other kind of traditions that you found there even <hes> seek <hes> and as you may have guests from the name of my podcast although i bring many years of study and practice from tibetan tradition i really try to share most most if not all of the teachings in the episodes of my podcast <unk> through a focus or lens of how you can and incorporate them in the every day so that they become real to you and not like something you read in a book because i believe truly you need to live the teachings like those people do and we don't hear but you need to live the teachings to really understand but even saw so i believe many of my listeners come from what they may classify as a secular <unk> background. You know i'm not quite sure or they're even suspicious about buddhism as a religion or anything. That looks like religion or something. That's you know woo spiritual but i love if you let the two sides of buddhism if you will sort of the philosophical psychological and the ritual spiritual play out you know i'm gonna i'm gonna read a couple of passages that i think illustrate the way you do this beautifully as a writer for example in a in a passage describing your time in <hes> little lhasa on the home of his dali out his holiness odile lama and the tibetan that government next style you quoted from your llamas or both your lama is at <unk> at your lama. Yes <hes> who you studied with when you were there and <hes> you described his you described how he described his teachings as quote you. You don't have to take my word for follow. The reasoning is logic unquote and this is something i find true every time i i actually repeated like a mantra in my podcast but then you'll contrast that with what you wrote about your experience which <hes> ed meeting his holiness and here's here's actually your description of meeting his holiness you you got to dial out so he looked into my eyes. Tashi delete guys stuttered the traditional tibetan in greeting holding up the cossack. He took my hand in his hand and he asked how are you. I felt the expanse of his love wash through me beyond me filling all the space in the universe and answered him by persisting into tears. I knew in that moment that the buddhist words the vows the poetry about love and compassion were not pet slogans nap pretty sayings that infinite love israel israel and i witnessed it fully present in a living breathing human you know there's a tension between those two things as logic and what you just wrote about their how how do you describe attention to. Maybe like the people you run across in your small small town who have no clue. You know how how how does that. How do you rationalize it. I tried to do it all the time in this podcast. You tell me how you do it. <hes> well <hes> that's also a really hard question. I would say that you know when when we were studying with trump show ricochet we were diving deep into the philosophical context of buddhism <hes> such as i think that <hes> the teachings on interdependent origination and if you do study buddhist philosophy <hes> even the law of karma cause and effect <hes> at the most basic level <hes> buddhist philosophy he is very logical and in fact even the buddha himself said you know don't take anything on blind faith. Examine it with your own mind. Examine your own mind and you know do your own practice and so when we were wished chump children inch <hes> who's also gives off those beautiful vibrations of love and compassion <hes> we were studying and and for for example the concept of emptiness is something that i've been sort of working with philosophically for many years trying to understand you know the word the word emptiness. It's not quite the right translation. There really isn't anything in english that exactly matches that concept concept i think in buddhist philosophy vaujany on it and my philosophy but <hes> you know he he took us there there you know and he showed us logically and that in that again of course hard of interdependence origination that nothing exists nothing is self existing on on its own so it is logic loss and so you know that's that's one piece of who we are as people and then on the other hand. There's the heart part of us. This people you know the feeling emotional parts of us and that is what was really activated when i met the dalai lama because i wasn't doesn't asking about philosophy he wasn't giving a lecture or teaching getting this came over and stood before me and his energy or his kids unconditional love i could just feel it and it it just melting it was so powerful and it was so hardly and i i guess when you say you know what was your most important pilgrimage moment i would i would have to answer is when i met the dalai lama because just like okay saying the book all the teachings all the philosophy all the logic all the you know books. I've read everything that describes the thing and then you experience it and then that is the moment where understand it truly but if you're not understanding it intellectually your understanding. It was your whole being your body your heart and when i met the dalai lama i i had that experience wasn't credible. Yeah you know what you're saying is true and i've experienced it to even though i talk a lot auden dry philosophy and trying to explain how how logical at all is you know how emptiness is now empty but it's actually how what gives you a possibility of everything <hes> but but the thing is the thing is is that if you are around these he's great teachers who practiced the way they have <unk>. There's there's a whole different experience and i love how you wrote about your interactions actions with the tabet monks nuns and how they proved you know that the teaching the dharma not just repeated words but living realities you you wrote the thing that i love and you know you wrote how you would ask leading questions. I'm trying to get them to show some anger or resentment zet -ment towards the chinese yes i. I have to read that part because it's so good. If you don't mind me quoting you all the time i ask them leading questions trying to provoke it emission of anger towards the chinese i could not illicit any i i thought about how we in the west hold onto our anger and resentment like they are precious gifts. We are victims. These feelings are right. The monks explained that holding onto anger is like holding a hot coal in your hand with the intent of throwing it at someone you are the one who burn but from them. This was not just a saying it was who they were all the way to their bones. You know that's so true. True isn't it and i felt a similar described in your meeting with the dalai lama when i was in the presence of one of my refuge teachers <hes> the drecun whom kogyo lama his eminence garching rinpoche a i don't know if you've heard of him a there was a movie about him for the benefit of all her particle yeah yeah he's one of my refuge teachers and i had that s- i every time i was in his presence or teaching with him. I had that feeling that loving presence of of being right in the sort of the energy field of a radiating boaty saffa and berkman uh-huh his he his whole being spoke to that same lack of anger at the chinese he was imprisoned by the chinese for twenty years he had no anger and he talked frequently about how he would help <hes> islamic <hes> prisoners listeners in in j in prison with them with with the tibetans you would help protect them so that they could say their prayers throughout throughout the day you know he would help them. Guide you know guard the guards from seeing them when they were doing their prostration. These to me are are the demonstrations that the dharma is completely transformative but if you practice it if you take it into your heart yeah and that's why teachers are so important me need our teachers. There's there's so much you can read in a book then then you need to go meet a teacher because they're an example in based show you what it looks like d. dharma practitioner and <hes> yeah yeah equi and there's so many similar story from chinese prisons <hes> also you know these. You've got to follow we're talking to they. Were telling a story of a law who had all the prison guard had become his student. It's so wrong even yeah <hes> that they were so moved by his just calm presence in the in the prison and and so many stories like that really incredible yeah and when you hear these stories you almost don't believe seem so unreal because hey it's nothing that we we have any experience of our culture. You know accelerate. Someone left a milk out overnight. I get totally perceived absolutely or leaves a stain in the sikh than i gotta clean up for goodness sakes what the heck yeah. I'm good that good good so i'd like to close our conversation by sharing to more teachings you receive during your pilgrimage that were just striking to me. See what a teacher you are in this book. I don't know what you're doing now for the benefit of beings but this book does it one is from a saadoun you met that in la puna his name was rama and he he wrote <hes> okay at sunset international missile travel travelers hindu pilgrims and locals gathered on the beach. This is on luna beach. One evening orange robes sadhu named rama approached ataman me he took each of our hands in one of his and talk to us in lilting english. He stared intently into our faces for several minutes as if he was reading our story in them then he told us it is good. You take your children to all the sacred pilgrimage sites but the holiest pilgrimage insight of all is home when you are loving each other and then later on in the paragraph you wrote love it is so simple isn't isn't it but i had to cross the world and make my way to this cow patties strewn jungle beach to get it as we were talking talking about the leaving the milk out overnight absolutely i mean that's just amazing that that teaching <hes> that you got ah you know just standing on the beach and and then the second one and i think this is sort of the the theme of our our episode today and <hes> in who knows it might be the theme of your book. I don't know that's sort of what i got from. It was also from your lama chunk entre with on he was speaking to you about true dharma practice. You wrote at our last morning seminar. Tom cruise in per se relaxed next looking around the room and smiling at everyone of us for the first time i hadn't noticed he had dimples before he had always seem so stern he admonished us to go home and not to even consider running away to india to become dharma bums by the way i'll interject you actually had that thought <hes> so quote he so yeah go go home to your jobs and your family's dharma practice doesn't mean running away from your life in means to be in your life every challenge and obstacle an opportunity to develop more love more compassion more patient be benefit if it to your home <unk> communities. That's just beautiful. Thanks for reminding me of this. You should go back to reread it. Yeah you like it a lot. So thank you <unk>. I mean i can't thank you enough for joining me today as i said in my intro i'm a compl- intro. I'm a complete fan of your writing and i look forward to whatever you might right next but i'm touched by your <hes> enthusiastic response to my book. I i really appreciate that. You gave it such close meeting in that you. You know we're open to it. <hes> it really makes my heart full to talk with you today. Oh thing wonderful. Oh thank you and i do urge all my listeners to read this book which i will link to on my website and probably in my promotions. It is a true adventure and can function as your own sort of spiritual pilgrimage at the end of a long day of work. When you pick up the book again i know i read it twice and kept finding none of it so thanks again in dina. You're awesome. Thank you so much. Have a wonderful lesson your day. I hope you found the conversation with dina as fun fascinating fascinating and insightful as i did and wait until you read her book. It's an experience you will look forward to and you will not want it to end. I guarantee <hes> you can find out more about de mos at w._w._w. Dot dino's dot com <hes> which i will post what's that link on my website along with linked to her book as usual a big thank you to all of you who listen to this podcast who email questions suggestions who contribute comments on one of my facebook groups and of course everyone who donates to help keep the content written and produced and distributed and especially to those donating and contributing to our new everyday sanga. Please do consider supporting my work with the podcast facebook discussion group a group the book discussion group and the everyday sanga you can donate through a recurring or one time donation at the donate tab on my website w. w. w. dot every day dash buddhism dot dot com. Thanks again until next time. Keep making your every day better.