EP 75 - CULT LEADERS with Jay Hunter


Shutout i rub it. Come everybody shut up i love it i am joe cabello and i'm here with shut up i love it. Sasha filer. what's up everybody. We're so happy to be returning guests. So i mean you already know who it is because you look at the description gas and you've probably like looking at it for like a couple of days and be like. Oh what am i gonna unleash upon my synapses like another handle. Can i handle another deep dive with jay. Like it's gonna just pose questions for eternity really really stoke the flames of creativity inspiration. Jesus already taken over this podcast but introducing me anyway. He is a cinematographer and director. Television director of this town called hollywood. He's named jay hunter. Welcome good to be here. The new intro. Now joe does the intro and then you can chime in the mc now. I feel like he. It's as bad as a star with him. Yeah thank you. Yeah thank you for enjoying. Because i i remember while ago before like the metoo movement and everything. I took a class with either. I remember jobs for me. I had to change a lot of things with heather campbell. Who's in the mazing comedian. And i remember 'cause she was doing a two person show with miles a lot whilst trough and she said she said i remember. I don't like to introduce our two percents. Show because i feel like if a woman introduces it the legitimacy like should. I don't think that that should be the case but people have less respect for you right away. Though like woman is good like hell self crazy. I was like i remember jews lakers. I always looked up to her so much for like being the strong woman and comedian. And i was like shit dude. But hey we're not here to talk about kevin campbell. J what are you here to talk about. Well you've heard me talking about many things in the wells running a little dry in terms of things that i have a wide breath john but like one more one more visit. You get your punch card and you get a free smooth. And i'm probably. I'm probably the most popular and most widespread guests on this podcast. And you've heard a lot about what things that i've been obsessed with an into also us. You're listening to the podcast. J. has own podcast. That's why you're very aware of what's going on in fan probably. Probably you probably are listening to this. Because you're a fan of my podcast came over migrating. Hot castenada yeah. So so. I was forced manhandled against my will to invent a new subject for this a new topic to discuss and i gotta say it was kind of an easy choice. Because i'm the only manhandled the well is running dry but like but this episode is about colt leaders and my lifelong fascination and problematic love with called coulter house. Love the i love leaders but like it's like a love hate relationship. I'm more than i'm fascinated by them but i i'm constantly obsessed with with leaders and i just. It's a topic that i find endlessly interesting. So let's clarify as we often want to do try You're you're here to talk about. The show is about colt leaders as in there just interesting in the study of them interesting. Not defending no writing a calls and being a leader. I just wanna make sure. I'm not proposing that anyone should join the call to. I'm not saying any of these leaders that we're gonna talk about are particularly good people. They're mostly mostly there's light they're mostly all hundred percent horrible people but i'm just i'm i'm very interested in you like just. The theory of being a cult leader the practice of the different methods by which they attain cult leader status. I'm just. I'm constantly obsessed with these these kind of large charismatic personalities that are somehow able to Promulgate like a like an like just this undying hordes of people that are willing to do anything you know up until now but only included the killing themselves or killing other people committing crimes yet. Yeah i mean like co-leaders fascinate me. Because they they can take people that tend to be kind of troubled broken people but then sort of brainwash them in turn them into their. They're sort of psychic slaves in many ways. Like i just think that's fascinating concept and you you see the influence of cults all over our world and are just varying degrees of cult. I mean you know everyone. Everyone in high school like met met a friend who's like religions just a cult like religious like scientology man that just like two thousand years old or christianity which is absolutely true. Religions were started by founded by co-leaders. This is probably a distinguishing couple. Distinguishing characteristics to to differentiate colts from religions from the major world religions. But they're all they're all founded by these very legacy. Charismatic strong willed people and the topic of cult leaders is to me. It's like a confluence of all the things that i'm interested in like which is like wean. Yeah we called the but but but like like like the colts. The colts like black magic. Psychedelics previous you can go and listen surge. J. shut up like ufo's conspiracy theories. I it's just like all these things that i'm fascinated with all kind of like the diagram all overlaps with cold leaders and so there's a little bit of what i love in in each one of these stories so this is very interested in personal for me in the sense that i've always like question. Your obsession with called leaders does well. Because even though you're saying like of course you not defending the called leaders. But he's in something sometimes. We're obsessed with this because there's something in our personality that reflects that obsession. Yeah well what if you can read between the lines. Sasha's saying that. I'm a potential cult leader. I have the tendencies of meglomaniac cult leader which is true like no no. I'm probably fascinated with it. Because i seem i see my own potential in their in their stories. See you out there listening. And you want to support this meglomaniac. He's open for business as well. Yeah i mean. I've always i think it's part of. It's just like a joke that i would. I would say you know. I've always felt like i if i wanted to. If i put my mind to it. I could start a cult and be like one of the great leaders of all time. That is a big statement. I mean not like it sounds ridiculous like joking. But i'm actually very serious like but the thing is is that i would never do it. Because in order to truly be successful as a cult leader you have to abandon ethics morality. You have to be kind of like a bad person. Deep down like the though. I know that if i'm like a young anakan skywalker who could easily be turned toward the dark side and become darth vader. I can resist unlike. Anikin i can become. Obi wan kenobi the wise man the mountains but so yeah so i mean it's a mirror i'm looking into it. I'm seeing a scant reflection of my face. Yeah because i would never be interested in this topic but it is somewhat interesting to me. And i remember taking a class in brooklyn college. Shout out about secret societies. There was between secret societies and societies with secrets. And although i'm not comparing to call leaders. But the i guess the question is what separates called leaders much like their secret. Societies and society was secrets. There's a certain differentiation between them. What separates like called leaders from like just like upright citizens brigade theatre where people are obsessed with the idea of doing improv or like the catholic church or something like like any kind of group that people have like an undying love for and loyalty to well i. I'm not a cult expert by any means. I'm an amateur fan of the subject. But i know that a lot like a couple of distinguishing characteristics between cults and religions. Are that a cult will will try to d program. You an trying to erase moral codes and and and sort of ideologies that you had in the past. We'll we'll try and completely erase that they will also try and separate you from friends and family and tell you like oh those are the nonbelievers you have to detach them so detaching from your from your social network your social system is a big element. It's also if the cult is asking your the organization is asking for all of your money. I mean that's where there's a little bit of overlap because obviously organized religion does the same thing but but it's more like a cult. We'll we'll ask you for all of your money and not just like five ten percent or something or just passing around a bucket in church. Court will tend to demand that you relinquish all personal property to the cult. And it's also another distinguishing characteristic. Is that a cults usually led by a cult leader who what where it's not about philosophy necessarily or the philosophy is always second to the personality of the person in charge. So it'd be it's the term cult of personality in russia. They loved expression because they've lived through so many in style in are we. Yeah i mean you could say. Trump is like a cult leader. I think for sure he is with matic checks out. Yeah certain weird way. Yeah yeah. I mean i i mean. I don't think he's aware of it or anything i think. He's just like his natural inclination. Is the become like a cult type. Lille ethic system hitler-stalin. All these like pol pot. These like they are kind of cult leaders in in the larger sense of the word. but but what. I'm mostly obsessed with the cult leaders where they have a small group of people which could be up to many thousands of people but relatively small comparative to the rest of the world population where where it becomes a cult of personality where he becomes worship of this one personality. This one person Rather than the than an embracement of like of a religious taxed or a series of ideals. Like that that's always second to the to the person in charge. Yeah and there's only really one example where it's transcended that Which is scientology. Yeah well what do you mean. Well i mean they're scientology's still obsessed with ron hubbard. I in a lot of ways. David miscavige choose the current head of the church. Santa fan shot the miscavige. He he loves the show and and we hope that you do find his. His wife is found. Who's been missing for many years. She's got no pretty much guaranteed she's gone. But but yeah so so. Like scientology was the cult of personality. Based on l ron hubbard and what happened was when l. ron hubbard died. Or if you're a scientologist. He just ascended to the next level. He transmitted physical space. But but but what really happened was that he died addicted to drugs in a trailer. Hemmitt california in the middle of the desert and david miscavige. Who was like his second in. Command co redesign the church and and made it made it canonized him. Yeah canonized and it's always still about elwin hubbard and his genius. But miscarriage is in the traditions of the great leader's. He's taken over the position of leader. And so though he can't he can't denounce l ron hubbard the fact that he's dead and doesn't really have any relatives that are involved with the church miscarriage. Yeah he he can take the sceptre and reigns supreme. Yeah very unique of it to make that pivot while the story of many of these other ones are like. Oh everybody realize they're all crazy And maybe that's due to the lack of violence in inciting that that they they commit there has not been found. Yeah yeah yeah well. I'm sure there's been much. Violence done by saying ptolemy that we're both aware of through. Hbo documentaries are unaware of but yeah like just going through the history of the list you sent like everyone like ends in bioterror event or mass murderer mass suicide but scientology now that tends to be the the end result of of a cult and the cult leader is that it self-destructs at a certain point. And maybe the beauty or the genius of scientology is that it was designed so that it can keep on going and and gain ronnie gain strength. Make money stay strong through its membership in through sort of the missionary element of it. I mean the mormon religion similar deal. It was like the original leader. What's his name. john smith. He was like he barely even. He didn't even make it. The salt lake city like like he was killed by an angry mob in missouri. I think and brigham young was the one the david miscarriage of the mormon religion. The brigham young was the one who brought them. Who got him the salt lake city in the mormon church or the of latter day saints. They like to be called but Yeah so in that way. Scientology to me is a lot closer to mormonism. It's just a lot younger. Hasn't gone through like the four or five generations of of of power and that that the churches so jay you gave us a short list of your favorite cult leader or at least appropriate for this particular topic. The podcast hard to save my favorite. It's more like they're just. They're like the the big shine. Big greatest hits his way to put it and already brought up by one of my personal favorites. L ron hubbard especially because we share birthday is basically no matter. How bad your birthday with me. I'm a fan. And i notice quite a few of them are pisces. Which was very interesting. Which i am. Obviously it makes sense but like march. Thirteen shout out and the Send us definitely an email if you're march thirteen percent. But yeah l. ron howard. Then you also give us a few other names and i. I was asking you jay how you wanted to proceed with the structure of this podcast. You said you just going to drop the names. We're not going to go over each. I'm kind of like i like. I like to just jam. You know like a word jazz guy. A wean yeah. Yeah style jam that. Let's say incorrect. But i was just gonna rift because it's a topic. I know a lot about and so there are few leaders that i told sasha jota to check out in preparation for this for this series and the one was l ron hubbard the aforementioned shoko asahara somebody. I didn't know much about like. I've heard a little bit about him but i didn't know much about shook. Sahara is the founder of the ocean. Rikio death cult. You got charles. Manson we all. We all know charles manson which he loved the beatles bills or that you want to be the beach boys more specifically but yeah charles. Manson the manson family marshall applewhite's. Who's the founder of the heaven's gates before death colts. He's got super cool. Is you know. Super calming is kid. He's got he doesn't have. He is very creepy and destroys. Charles manson the ice seem to be. They all have interesting. Interesting is hunter line. Just see much. Like i mean. That's interesting is because a lot of cult leaders over time have been like a through line is that they do have a very piercing gaze. Got like alastair croly you got. Rasputin you've got. You've got l ron hubbard charles. Manson passing you but marshall applewhite. The next one on my list is the bhagwan rajneesh like group. Yeah crazy is he's got. These piercing weird is yeah. And we'll have to say that shoko asahara or shackle asahara. He was blind so that did not have piercing is by any means but he has a story is pretty crazy. 'priority he he has. He has a fast thing. I mean we do like you know a ten hour series just on shoko asahara th th. The last person was going to mention. Was jim jones. The founder of the sample who who's probably the highest score in terms of like like kills. I believe it's like several thousand people killed themselves in jonestown and nine point nine nine hundred nine. Yeah it could have been thousand. I'm sure the wave. you like. By the side of the road. The other groups that order of the solar temple that have a lotta kills to their to their credit but like but Jim jones like he he. He's the all time he's like the goats the greatest of all time in terms of like forcing your your followers to all murder themselves. Yeah well as well like it's it's important. Even i think how much people are obsessed with colts. Colt leaders just with tv shows that depict them either fictitiously or nonfiction. Fiction shows There's people seem to really be obsessed with this topic in fiction. So i wonder what your thoughts why people seem to enjoy seeing. This played out. Well i can only. I can only say that. Like the reason i think people are interested in the same reason i'm interested in is because you're just fascinated by somebody who has the talents of magicians so to speak like someone who can who can invent something. Just pull something out of their own ass and then teach it to people around them have them be like undying servants that the that are willing to kill themselves or others or do horrible things for you just because of the of mind control that you've sort of put them under i mean a little. It's hard to say like mind control quote unquote. That's essentially what's happening. But it's the it's the power of persuasion. And and i mean i think people are also fascinated by it because like leaders usually descend into sort of like fantastical stories and they implode and it's it's a crazy third acts for for these stories but like you know you see these qualities in cult leaders that you see all around you like in politics and in power in government i. It's these very similar qualities people in the business world. I mean you've got little mini cult leaders who don't create death colts but create colts. Not thought of as that. So i am actually a person who despite the fact that i'm saying that i'm not interested in called Like as a topic. I am pretty success. Susceptible person to get involved in the call. You've been a member member of many micro. What was that one. Call that you remember of the guy. Remember you went to like is like retreat in new mexico member gary gary. I don't think he was a colt. Yeah that's they all say is he was not a real leader. I just felt like i was pretty chill in. I didn't have a bad image agenda. He felt like more like a meditation teacher but he was like not aggressive about it in his wife with him like he didn't didn't actually feel like i have taken a writing class. Where the person the writing. I taking the class religiously for two years to the point where it was the closest i've come to like become a member over microcosm that still exists of like consists of like four people and new members once in awhile. Join it in. I had two other friends who also felt like they were just couldn't leave it was. It was a crazy thing. So like i had that and is again a charismatic person. Who's very kind and warm and makes you see right because it's like eat. Praise on insecurities sort of like charles manson did right like all the he praised on your insecurities of actually you are extremely talented. And i'm not like like when. I say like a sounds like like gosh like you are disaster but it. I'm talking about very small moments in class like this particular writing class. Where very small moments were you know being noticed being seen right. It's this like desire to be seen to be noticed to be praised by the cult leader. He by the cult leader and also see the cult leader. Do something really well because the guy is a good writer so you see him actually going through this emotional journey of helping people's right to become better. What i would say is another thing. Another elements of cult leaders and colts. Is that which which i think is applicable to your story about this writing teachers that they tend to teach their followers that they don't have the power within the power is in the cult leader and maybe in the strength of the cult. And you need to be a member of this in order to receive that that enlightenment or or the energy and that power and so you always feel subservient to a something. That's bigger than you. So you like in this writing class. Everyone's got different degrees of talent. But this person you know in from my from my perspective convinced everybody that if they didn't go to this teacher that they would be failures right like like it wasn't that he was he or she was teaching. It wasn't that they was what we're teaching people how to write and go on like the adage teacher man to fish and he'll eat for his whole life or whatever he wasn't doing that he was more saying like like. I'm gonna teach you how to be a follower of mine and you can never leave or else you're all going to fall to pieces. He was also saying crazy. Things like like which. Now looking back and having grown exp- i think exponentially since i broke off the kalt like he was saying there's only one way to write like he would be like there's only white way to story can go and just things like insane right like as you look at right here at the time but at the time he's got it and you and you see him using his talent to really manipulate you and then ended with be going to his house being invited for a new year's january. I like a welcome new year's or maybe december thirty first and then him Acting out in front of other like cult members. That i've never met that i like his france but they're like really looked like cult members. And that made this point radio starting to like realizing peeling off of the cult so this person is teacher he. He acted As as an entity in trance who is telling people what the future holds. Keep this act of like. He's also a magical. It was like i wasn't there but it was basically like you talked about in latin. He was doing like a seance where he was like getting possessed by some spirit. Tom i m shaking my head to joe. I'm just like oh my god. What the fuck. As soon as i heard that i was already like this. Is it like and then it took me two more months to like come to like still come to come to like the goodbye like that's the funny thing couldn't leave right there which i should have is still took me like i think that was so that was in december and i left and like jewish. Select six more months. It's all it's very adjacent to con- behavior people who run cons and abuse behavior. Which is you front load with a lot of trust giving you things doing nice things so that when the when the person pulls back where they the cult leader pulls back or the cult leader decides to not act good and you wanna get away now. i know. Remember all these good things that have done for you that you've done and it's just like typical abuse behavior and it's exactly what you see in the colts which i think is the biggest differentiation between it and a religion is it's really like by design to attack people who are susceptible right like the. The whole purpose of colt is to make you completely dependent on the cult so that you'll never ever leave whereas religions manipulate in in various ways. But but it's it's not to to the end result of you just just becoming a monk or something you know. They're trying to create the trying to convert all of their followers to become like members of a suicide cult for them or anything like zing. Here's a philosophy. Yes you can come here to the church and you can gain light like like like fulfilment and stuff you still go out and you live your life separate whereas a cult is all about living your life your your life. In the cult become inseparable. So the colts gone. You might as well be dead right and and you know it's like another thing is is that like when you bring up a conman and it's not a coincidence that like nearly all the people on this list of leaders i've given you and many others have all been obsessed with a book. The dale carnegie road called how to win friends and influence people charles. Manson will read those cell help. People are still think it's like the bible of like i know professional meditators. Who are upset. And i'm not saying that. I haven't read the book but i'm not saying the book is like evil or anything but but the lessons learned in a book like that you know like in the wrong hands in the hands of a potential cult leader it kind of gives them blueprints on how to how to become leaders themselves right right well. Let's talk about phyllis thinki- who is on the show. Talked about fuck boys and the game book is essentially like its adjacent to that book. What is the game the game. Yes yeah yeah it. It's completely like that book the How to win over people whatever that was but if you wanted to make that book just about picking up chicks that is the game and that was a cult in and of itself and a lot of ways in like a in a weird way right a cult based on Not exploiting the people that are part of the cult but a cult that's based on exploiting others using their tendencies like convey newly converted in cell like people not all of them but maybe some of them were giving something to the people at the head like off game like the game maybe giving money or giving their time or sherburne for sure. There was some definitely heavy elements of the call. Like guy like charles manson. He he goes the he's lived most of his youth in jail and he comes across how to win friends and influence people. He gets obsessed with that book apocrypha. -ly like how are we actually to know that. Maybe you just heard of it and claimed jill liked it. But like he you know he was also obsessed. There's another book about him. So that the crazy like Like legendary like like underground book. I i can't remember what it's called but but it's basically how to be a pimp right and and it's it's the same thing like the conmen and and cult leaders and pimps all kind of go by the same the same way to manipulate people into to shower them with love and then charlotte shower them with haight so that they're always coming back for the love right like i. It's just the way it's just like this like like a like psychological software like like like a virus computer code. They if you if you utilize it in certain ways you can change people's minds and have them just follow you forever either cold or it is called how to be a pimp both great titles and i think Another distinguishing factor of the call is that versus like religion Just to tie it back to that is that they're not trying to get anybody they in fact don't want a halt doesn't want the well-balanced no he's fine a would not survive. The membership was open to everybody or like like only certain people are going to become part of the manson family. You know he's not going to get millions of followers. He's gonna get like follow hours of certain types of people that have been abused the have psychological trauma dealing with the they just have a variety of issues. It's like what you know you read about like like a pedophile or child molester. Will profile like kids in a certain way and identify. Oh this kid has abyan the that will allow me to then like like molest them or whatever and and they won't tell their parents so they they they focus on on victims like not everyone like like like like not every woman that meets a pimp and is maybe in hard times is going to become like one of the girls go in the prostitution but or sex work what we call it now and so and so the the so but like but certain personalities are more susceptible or certain people in certain stages like mindsets are are. I think it's also it's easy to like think of the cult followers as being stupid because one of them clearly no but like you watch the thing about that nexium called you know and you watch these people that are these idiots like this guy. this guy. this cult leader is a dumb ass. Why are they following him. Like it doesn't jones even like looks dumb dumb on marshall side marshall applewhite whatever right and so and so like you but but i think it's important not to nuts. Nuts identified the cult followers weak-minded. It's just that they're in a they're in a state of consciousness that allow that makes them very susceptible to the cult leaders send battle the substances are often a part of it. What you mean like drugs like without drugs drugs. The one of my favorite subjects in the world psychedelics Basically the key to the universe and and the best way to make yourself a better person but it but but any tool can be used for evil and a lotta these a lot of these leaders will use like things like lsd or other psychedelics to like in their evil plan to manipulate and brainwash people's minds and it's it's proven to be a very effective method. I mean certainly with charles manson certainly with shoko asahara who they were making just like barrels and barrels of liquid. Lsd and everybody in the cult was on acid the entire time. It's it's it's a way to deprogrammed people and to reprogram to to your specifications shoko asahara like and goal. His goal was to create the apocalypse. And that's the scariest thing about shoko asahara and ocean rikio which a lot of people don't know what it's about. It's insane story. I recommend anybody who wants to learn about ocean. Radio should go to the last podcast on the left and look own episode. They did like a seven part series on just this one cult we would know. Most people listening would know rikio from was with the serum. Gas tokyo subway sarin gas attacks that happened looking at nine hundred ninety s and it was like you know in the west or whatever in america was just like a news story like oh my god these crazy people set off this gas. Like kill a bunch of people in the subway. What was actually happening. Was that was like that was like a dry run. For their for their apocalyptic vision they were. They were trying to do much bigger things that they were acquiring a military grade weapons they had. They had a military grade tomahawk helicopter with guns and missiles they had they were developing a nuclear weapon and they actually were doing. It wasn't just like some pipe dream So the their ultimate goal was was. It's really the fault of the lesser co-leaders in my mind as opposed to someone truly brilliant. Like l ron hubbard. Who you know a lot of times. They don't think far enough along and eventually they're they're they're diatribes their ideology. Their their story of spirituality leads to an endpoint. And the endpoint comes. That's when you see these things like everyone kills themselves or or just completely burns down in some way or another incarcerated. Whatever 'cause they're not thinking long term like papa l ron hubbard. I mean he's if there's the holidays in hell but like the man was brilliant and got a great writer though right. He was the worst writer of all time. Like if you read l. run hubbard's it's like somebody just learned english from the planet. Mars is trying to write like a store. I mean it's insane. His lack of of the his lack of skill with the english language. I mean it's it's incredible but like that's when you learn about scientology you you hear some of the words and some of the things they have in they sound weird to you like they say like mind brain a lot and like its mind brain. You mean just like your mind or your brain why it mind brain like he he he. He's just he's just like the worst all sit intellectual yeah he creates words. New words like scientology. Which wasn't the word science and technology which is like the study of thought or whatever. The study philosophy combined words clever scientology. I mean somebody is clever. But like if you go deep into the hell hubbard cannon the hubbard oeuvre. You're gonna find a lot of dumb shit and if you not a follower you read this and you and it sounds like like the writings of dumb ass. And that's why a lot of people throw their arms up there and say like how could anybody follow this shit because it's it's so clearly stupid and from the mind of an idiot the discounting the whole recruitment process in the hallway. That you're brought into the colts and we're state you're when you brought in her never comes out the first day right. It's like allergies deepen after it's like imagine if you were in a relationship. It's like month eight you're thinking about even saying i love you to this person and then they're like you never will. Hey i'm an alien. you never will. Oh they won't give it up because then they will respect you but yeah go on but then they say like hey. I'm an alien. You know four months. We're going to go in a spaceship and then it's like what do you do. It's a lot different than on date the first date they say that. And that's what these leaders do and especially scientology is well known for you know after you've put sixty grand and then they're like hey there's aliens and the information is is let let like as you become deeper involved in the cult and more secret information is given to you if you get something small. Some small bit of new information. That's that's heavily guarded and secretive. You might not see the greater picture where it's like like in the greater context it seems ridiculous and outlandish but since you got this little secret bit of knowledge you ingest it and you you and byu a sense of like greatness and reality unto that and it's just it's just like a slow like like like a snowball rolling down the hill just gets bigger and bigger and bigger until you're so wrapped up into the defines like your entire view of reality and i will say also the that's why guys like shoko asahara we're using lsd. Because because i mean if many people listening to this of done psychedelics before lsd is probably one of the most powerful and influential psychedelics. You could ever take and if you keep people on acid for long periods of time and tell them that reality is a certain way they one hundred percent will believe it. I mean you're so your brain is so fragile and susceptible to outside suggestion that that keep people in that especially people that aren't used to taking psychedelics. Like shoko asahara. It was all these like you know like scientists and smart people. You know people that had good standing in society but japanese culture doesn't have like a drug culture really. It's it's a very. It's not a very widespread thinks. There's not this knowledge of psychedelic drugs. And so if he starts feeding you psychedelics. And you start seeing visual hallucinations and he starts like moves finger around the sky and there's pink trails going around it. You're going to suddenly think that this guy has god and that he has he the ability to bring you to to you know into the infinite so yeah so it's like but not all of them work work with drugs like drugs. Drugs can be a tool like shoko asahara or charles. Manson use it as a tool. But but others don't like you know like illegal. Ron hubbard wasn't into drugs using the vitamins. But i just want to say. I really quick thing while we talked about mind brain and all the other funny bad english words. Like l ron hubbard used for dianetics and scientology so like another call. That i'm still a part of but not really is like a very. This is very interesting because it's it's very it's become yoga right so like become clearly terrible person horrible person. I mean like i just outward. Always say like he's a rapist and and a lot of ways i by his description. He reminds me of trump just the way he acts like the way. You kind of dismisses people like not important things important by talks about like women that he pulled out of the trash. Yeah they were just trash trash. And i saved their lives. His guy did not create the yoga that he popularized in america. But he did do this. He took this yoga from his teachers. That in india and he popularized at an put it in the hundred and ten degrees. Which of course is almost like giving people lsd system. Crazy altered state. And i find the most healing yoga that i've ever done and i've been for seven years and then of course at this point it's not really big room yoga for the most part that i do. It's like it's taken own life like people who have no affiliation with bagram just have hot yoga studios and you do that yoga. I still find it therapeutic for me. That's where and i think that's like a question of almost an example of kalt that there were people from like the necklace documentary on the podcasts. About that those people who were very close to him and there were always acting extreme cold like full just kissing him like he was just raping people. Crazy stuff right. But then there's like he also wanted to make the money so he while the money that you paid directly to this become studios warren going to him but it was like a mcdonald's it was a franchise. He was making money on this teacher training like when he was still before he became like a pariah and and it was a crazy thing of there was like all these other people i guess hundreds of thousands of people that never met him but they were told like to like respect him and love him and i really didn't catch the much of that because already like the time when i came in but i think it's an interesting called because there are people who very close to him but then there was like almost like a radio waves of the greatness of become and another crazy thing they do in the classes they in the hardcore like strata become classes. They read the dialogue that he'd written and a lot of the words are messed up on purpose. Like hug. grab elbows each other. which means opposite elbows. But it's a a elbows each other or you. You're there is no room between your legs and your chest. Your japanese ham sandwich in for years of which it's that mean and then like some teachers explain and now like the dialogue in of course it's called dialogue which is super happy and it's not a dialogue a monologue from the teacher but he's been completely broken now. It doesn't doesn't really get used but it is a weird thing right the program your body to respond to it so it's very it's also like most. Most lot of the occult and most colts have like like an indecipherable texted. the worship. are they re. And it's almost like like like illogical or irrational words plug put next to each other juxtaposed. It's almost like the the idea is is like oh yeah. That doesn't make sense. I know but like give it a couple of years like once you get the level four. It'll make sense and then and then you might convince yourself a one point all i do get it now. I do understand what this like like easier poetry like actually means it's again. It's another tactic of the cult leader to to create like t to manipulate language. And also to teach you that like your your previous concept of language no longer exists or if you're now in a different world where words mean different things in different rules and and scientology is brilliant with that in terms of like they did. I mean there's probably a fucking dictionary five hundred pages long of just scientology terms right like i mean everything that they do. You know from from what you know. The the they'll say s p's suppressive persons and like ot level eight that saints for operating fate always secrets right like they. They used the words like they on the bus next to you. You don't know what you seemingly innocuous words like like total and so people hearing that sounds like nonsense. You're just an idiot but like between you and the other cult members you're speaking of secret language and it's always feels it always feels special to be part of a group to be included again. A lot of people who fall into cults are dying for that sense of family and inclusion and acceptance and also deference to to do someone's will to some extent slightly. Just just just dying to fall in the arms of the of the cult leader so that they can nurture them. Yeah we're all looking for something like to complete us and many of us have learned. We have to find it and you know we have to work hard to find it and really have these people who emotionally are just so desperate for that that when somebody says hey i can give it to you. They believe it and really like we mentioned before. It has nothing to do with your intelligence. It's really about where your emotional state is and childhood trauma a lot of times. I'm sure there are a lot of people that are into scientology. You keep on going back to that as hot as crazy as i think. It's it's hard because it's like a major religion scientology. I mean jim. Jones has the highest score for kills but scientology is definitely in the lead for most successful cult like maybe mormonism holding first place. But but scientology was. I was even saying i can't remember. I don't know what i do want to say this. You know you you people you finish your listeners. The thought of jason your head. But what i was gonna say this is i don't know so there's a thing of acting classes read like of taking a bunch of acting classes and i'm telling you all of those all of those acting classes. I'm not kidding. All of them are called i. E. coli you know like we had another actor in the room. Who's taken about your acting like maybe there would be like look. This is not an cult. But i'm here to tell you that there's something about acting right and just being raw emotionally and a lotta times pulling your childhood emotional trauma people in that state where they immediately quickly identify the teacher with their like father and mother and guru and while that's the one thing i'm saying is that a lot of acting classes and the being strange spaces where the teachers i've seen famous allay teachers having people in class it was a must in masterclass that was part of had to either rub her feet or she had to rob your feet. You like see. Like which one. And i remember. I did not her feet. So but i've seen people rob her feet and i was like not important in that class. I think it was like my early classes. So i feel like i haven't gone but i still like more like season actors. Just rub her feet. Oh yeah and this could be like like people who aren't successful and this could also this like very successful actor following this. This teacher like all time. When i'm working like you'll you'll orca someone who's like a really famous person that's very skilled. Or whatever and acting and they have this weird like acting coach that they hired to be along. And it's like that's their weird leach guru the the the the inducted them into their cult of personality and even though they're millionaires and they're very successful. They still have this this this this. This little likes cubis fall. Follow them around and whisper little things ear to give them the magical power. I mean it's like cliche but the show berry like shows that with. Yeah yeah. I would woods portrayed in berry is is basically like there's a place like that on every block in hollywood you know like the the. There's there's a man or a woman. is Is running an acting. Cults within a stone's throw wherever you're at in los angeles. And i in fact. One of the famous acting schools that is actually like a recruitment center for scientology. It's called the beverly hills playhouse. And the beverly hills playhouse. I believe that's what it's called. They on the surface. They're just an acting school. And it's like all these famous actors have gone to the beverly hills playhouse. Whatever it's called beverly hills playhouse. But it's really just like a way to recruit you into scientology likely because actors are very susceptible. Yeah to scientology both because of where the now their offices are located here but also actives are looking for something big apart of scientology. It's good for tom. Cruise is it really bad for me. That could be also another. Yeah and yeah. That was one of l ron hubbard's genius strokes in the seventies it. I can't remember where it's called. It's called like operation like like mind face or some shit like that but but basically like it was like an operation that he put in you know into action which is which is like we need to get famous people into scientology's so they will trust famous people so they went after actors. They went after musicians. Like the jazz musician korea's a lifelong scientologist so many actors travolta and tom cruise are the biggest names. But like but i mean so many others like giovanni rec- and yadda yadda like Juliana from no not jillian more from natural born killers. I can't remember your name anyway. So so chateau she. She's a scientologist. Beck's a big scientologist. I mean he was got into it through his family because were scientologists but the the the they see the power in having celebrity members right because it legitimises it for people like people think like whoa this successful famous person that i love their art and work and they seem pretty stable and they seem pretty intelligent and grounded and they're really into this. There must be something going on here. And so like like hubbard celebrity and scientology. You get treated like you'll get abused and fucked with like like the majority of their of their followers. Do you get treated really. Well you get you. Get the stay at the celebrity center on franklin hollywood and you get to go to all the parties. They definitely have their their their claws in you. But it's in a different way than the rank and file right. Yeah you're like you'll get vip so that it's always fun club and it's always miserable. Yeah yeah exactly. Because they recognize that. That's the that's the public face of scientology are the celebrity members now. I wanna ask us something interesting. Because i was also in on non kalt with a very amazing person who's passed since then chris christianson and i really don't think that same christianson was so he. Some christian was He was a casting director from Mash right famous show and then he was cast for the were tightened or something or a battle. The titans he was also became a guest interactive. Who became an acting teacher. But also brand teacher to even like business people or anybody to basically bring up your confidence that you really know authentically who you are and you can use it in life and I've heard about it from j. about tim christianson. Because he listened to harbor town and dan harmon is a big fan of sam christianson and in many ways he i guess credits sam christianson would like dan coming to him so his own as an artist as are the artists the he has the right home. And so i you know have taken these classes sam's and what i noticed in those classes very interested in san samson pass and i only have good memories at him but is that sam was really all about like he was like a cranky old man but he was also like really passionate about a lot of things very liberal and he really liked actors and he had a lot of wisdom to offer and what i noticed in this classes. Guys have taken the his masterclasses by invitation. Only whatever is that people themselves were forcing him to be in the cult leader like it was weird like it was like he was pushing that away and he was always talking about the task at hand and the actors walking shakespeare and had his passion talked about but people were always like just like on their knees in front of him and people. I mean actors actors. Yeah but it was a weird thing. I saw him like almost like walk away from it every day. Like you will come. There and people are just like sam. Sam oh my god see him like i worship you. People were insanity and he almost like head to physically walk away upstairs to his office. I it would. It reminds me of is like like like jerry garcia in a similar way. We're like he. You know the grateful. Dead and jerry garcia had this like a massive following of people who are just like like devout fans and they all they tried to turn jerry garcia into like a god-like figure and he always rejected that and hated. Because he's he's not like a cult leader and he he's not he doesn't want to just put people make people submit under his will but like people were always asking that of them and it's got to be hard to to be in a position of power so to speak and not go into the dark side like i mean. That's the darth vader analogy is. Is that you know like like if you're teaching a philosophy or you're really becomes like you're a teacher of some sort or another and if your students like they might try and four sudi become the cult leader that they desire and so people who have good in them will resist that resist the temptation and people who are who don't have as much good in them will will succumb to it. And we'll end up giving them what the followers demand which is which is like day affiliation and and then divan demand fealty from their from their followers. You know to have them kiss their feet and worship them and it's like you know you ever seen the movie the man who would be king joe the the movie it's a everyone should watch the man who would be king. It's a john huston. sean connery. Who just passed away. I isn't it with michael. Cain and it's these two like you know kind of cockney british guys like one hundred twenty years ago who who who come up with his great movie who who come upon this this like a remote tribe in the middle east and sean connery becomes their godlike convinced that he's like he's a god it's come to them it's return to them to lead them and so so it's like these guys are just kind of their con-artists just scammers. They're just looking to get rich. But but as soon as the people start worshiping. Sean connery as a god. He succumbs to the to the intoxication of and he becomes addicted to it and he doesn't wanna leave. He's like he's like. I want to stay here and be this. God like this is as good as it gets. These people think i'm a divine power. You so the temptation. The temptation of cult leader must be through the roof right. Like i think a lot of these people. They've created the world that they live in right like the. It's not like they just showed up one day and all of a sudden people were worshipping them like the most of the leaders had that express goal in mind when when they started the colts. But but sometimes in other cases like sam christianson or like jerry garcia and others. I'm sure they're doing this cool work. And it's so inspiring the people that people worship them as gods and try to enforce them in the and it's very interesting what you just said because the the is in the work right because i think in some ways it's almost a metaphor for acting itself where actors one who like the great actor is one who keeps there is on the task like on the acting on the other person and or the feelings whatever it might be the object sort of the acting like almost like the object of meditation but people who are like in their eagle. You can always tell when people acting from their ego. There's a there's a difference. I think it's so common with for the target of people have actors you have deadheads who not. All dead heads are the same. But there's a lot of people who like jim music and alternative music and take lsd. Because they're not getting something in their lives or actors they can be a very insecure bunch. Who are looking for validation. That's no like secret. So who is the perfect person to become a cult follower someone who's insecure looking for validation and these You have a two prong approach with anybody who's like an acting teacher 'cause one if they are casting and if they're like anyone with influence will you'll do whatever they say just so they don't say. Hey sasha's really bad to work with and blacklist you so you'll rub someone's feet just so you don't get fucking blacklisted. And then you also have the level of you know i'm not i'm not booking. I'm not auditioning teacher. Says i'm great. And they say that. I need to do these things. So you're going to naturally like want to keep paying that teacher keeping around them because they're giving you the thing that you're saying. Hey world this is what i need and also like this sometimes use those physical tools that are almost like a perfect to like if you're shooting a movie about called leaders. It's almost like that scene has to be in the movie. I remember going to this one acting class. My friend alex recommend its glass and there was like a kid like a younger actor who was like going through some emotional shit and we like the attitude forced all of us to get up and give them a group hug. I remember like i didn't know this guy. He was a couple years. And i was like sitting next to him so it was like the first person to hug him and it was very uncomfortable because this guy and his body hogging this guy and then this like other people like hugging and layers around us and it was the weirdest thing and i remember coming back onto jv. Like i don't fucking cog this guy you don't want to be part of it but it was like we're all doing it so it was like a lotta time wasted. It's a group mind starts happening. It's like the the the theory of crowds with hitler. Like if you get a big crowd together you can. You can just have people do anything as long as everyone sees. What what's going on around them is happening now. This thing with the hugging. It's actually another distinguishing characteristic of a cult. Which is called love bombing and so a lot of times in the colts. You'll you'll you'll see the opposite of were like they'll have sessions where it's all about hate and everyone's screaming at each other you know and kind kinda like primal scream therapy and then but it's all if that happens it's always followed by love bombing which is just everybody going. I love you. I love you i love it. It's like it's like depriving you of the heroin and then giving you the heroin right shoot main lining it for you and and it's give and take the kind of programs you or or programs you your mind this away. That's interesting because that actually reminds me of the writing class where this one guy. The teacher who then later had the that i mentioned earlier. Podcast sometimes i go to classic you just like to learn how to break story right for. Tv like how far would you but you over sudden like leave their. He'll gee i'm black emotionally like i'm been worn out like because emotionally like. He was going to something he would get up and like he'd be almost like on the stage like crying sometimes as he would like like right lines for other people's carriages he would cry and so she won't day but it was like really beautiful performance so this is very interesting. Yeah and it's funny to me. Because then i compare my mind to sam christianson and he was like which was see like a grumpy grandpa but it was not for him at all like he would throw up like before he would have a group hug because he always just wanted to talk about the work at hand and give people tools how to become more confident. Artists were aware of who they are. It's it's like if the work is. If the purpose of the work is to have the person grow that's not a an attribute of a if the end result is that you're going to give fealty to to the leader surrender power and and just kinda give yourself to the cult leader. That's that's a cult tendency so because it's like a teacher a passionate or inspirational teacher could easily go either way right but but i if at the end of the class it's about it's about now go off into the world. That's not a cult. I i if if the lessons is is take these tools and and live in my home and become my slave late like like you know. Take these these lessons. You've learned and just become addicted to my to my give and take of love and hate then then that becomes a cult because it's not a worship of an ideology it's a worship of a singular personality and so crazy 'cause i come from the culture like russia where you know to stalin and lenin before that and then certainly see currently what's happening you know the voldemort whose name madonna you know pronounce but it is a dictatorship at this point russia officially data ship. And i you know. I grew up in the nineties. Where when like we had sort of semblance of democracy for the first time and it was really hard for me to accept. Russia actually became a dictatorship again. But i remember. It was very funny in the nineties when For the first time because like religion became introduced but religion was like weird weirdly introduced like in the sense like like russian orthodox churches were built. Which is now their official church of russia and sort of like together with the government. They basically take money from previously. It was anti anti-establishment to be in a religion. Like the pope with the rolex like now. It's the same but them up. But then we started getting those brochures so oldest like george of later. Day seines baptists oldest. Like i wanna say american. But i don't know if they are form of christianity is the right way to put these studies coming into russia to be like. Oh this is like a country that has democracy so we're going to try to get some followers here right like or it's more like the government now will let us wander around to become missionaries in on their land. So we're certainly going to go for that. Probably have a huge presence in russian. Now it's all very like orthodox church is they've all been killed devolvement like the pay pagent pay pagans. There will be declared pagans and they're on the pagan list letter. They sands Check today but remember like having this brochures and just being curious and being like twelve years old and be like what is this like all jesus christ like okay like what is the story like almost like because i just like books and like they were pretty pictures. Jesus marielle like our it kind of boring same story. Whatever and. I remember my friend's mom. Best friends gelinas mom who is a doctor. And she's very hardcore like a scientists like she's a marie curie type like super like hardcore sciences. She was sasha you stop bring into shed her house she's like we gonna become yoon. Galina going to be enrolled in a cult in the she was very afraid or was like becoming a baptist or something called incensio up until today. My mom also talks about our distant relatives who became baptists or later they sands look day are in the cult sasha. I don't know if they are because they might be because they probably have like a local leader right that they probably wash. Yeah i it's like here's the thing i it's like if you're part of some group is spiritual religious group and you're still able to live your life and you don't have to like you like you're not a slave to the organization or leader. It's it's the same as any other religion like to me. I don't think it's harmless. But but but but if you're if you're able to live your life have a life separate from the from the organization then it's less it's less of a cult in my mind if a cult a cult because your entire life is the is the cult and and you have loved ones. That aren't the cult. they're no longer. Your love goes a little bit of that happening with some of my distance relatives. That's probably when when when they ask you to to detach from the nonbelievers it's wise from the from the view from the standpoint of the cult because because they know that the your loved ones who were not part of this cult are going to pull you away. It'd be like you're you're going crazy like this is this is bad so those people that's why it's inherent to a cult to to to detach you from your family and loved ones because seeming in scientology. Like if you're if you're labelled a suppressive person The if you're excommunicated from scientology like see your daughter gets kicked out of scientology. You're not supposed to communicate with your daughter because your daughter is essentially possessed by a demonic. Spirit that is that is trying to destroy you like an organization that teaches that is one of their tenants is is is in my mind. Evil and certainly categorizes a call. It's a bad thing regardless of your life. It could be anything. It could be video games. If that's how extreme you take it that it becomes to dictate your life not good yeah such ruining your day to day life and your life becomes the the cult like like there's nothing good that can come of that and then that's why i have this question to joe. What do you think. And a lot of our friends referred. I'm sure you've heard referred to this as a joke non joke. Where does you see be at its height. Stand like edits. Golden age of improv. Like five six years ago ten years ago. what are you how. How colty was it at that point. It's interesting it's really interesting. Because i think it's similar to the acting studios and teachers and coaches type of thing. What once you're dealing with. It's a business as well. Well then it's like the uc before xdrive isn't for you to have be obsessed with them. That's just what they helped them sell classes all products. So i think for them even if you hated them but you're buying or sending them a check every month it'd be fine northam versus a cult. There's more to it. There's more desire. I think the cult type of situation more came from the people. I think it was desperate people that could essentially turn anything into a kalt. If given the opportunity which you see be unfortunately did give the opportunity because they did avas system of. Hey we need to sell classes because that's our business so let's you know have this carrot of performing on our stages if you take classes which is arguable. I don't even think that's the biggest issue with them and what they were doing but i. I think it's just an unfortunate thing where you have a lot of desperate actors. Comedians and people in the entertainment industry who were given the validation said they turned it into a cult. Yeah i agree. Absolutely i think we i i like i knew people and you might know the same people who like head tattoos on their arms and like and then i would be like ha. That's colty and they would go. Yeah like you see the church. And mike matt besser is like the jesus but like also laughing at it and i think you should be very good job with like my really positioning themselves as leaders as masha cult leaders like they could've ride like matt besser going to be like all over the place like i mean the the have had statues of the founders of amy poehler and that besser matt walsh and union roberts like if they had like a carved a bust of their heads in the lobby. Like the then. I think it would veer more into a cult because there's a cult of personality. I mean like you get that a little bit with the dell close people you know like like like but but yeah that was closer to but still like myths about him and legend. It comes from like a teacher from a very influential teacher. Who inspires people. And i i agree with you. I think the scene is more of like a cult that the cultists tried to create rather than the founders trying expressly trying to create a cult. I think it evolved to that naturally much like like a million grateful dead heads like start worshipping jerry garcia as their spiritual leader. And he's sitting there being like. I didn't ask for any this like i don't want. I don't want you guys to worship what what's wrong with you i. So i think that that's what we'll always distinguished like and things things like like the. Those are influential schools. Where where the the membership probably kind of like brought ruin upon the organization but rather than the than the leaders doing so. Yeah because i mean at certain point if you are an obsessive personality and you are obsessed with improv and ucb and you like so many people myself included for few years that was the dream is to be unused stagefright like beyond the herald team. And i i mean at some point you find yourself unhappy and then kind of like almost joined to blame at the theta which. I didn't do a lot. Actually i always thought it wasn't thanked the theaters fault. That like i was unhappy. Be at some point. But i think a lot of people like turned against. Uc be felt like things weren't handled. Well at this whole herald team was like just making a lot of field vice all over the place. But i i think i think with ucb. It was more complicated than Backlash for a call personality. I think it was just more of a labor issue and happening. Yeah So i think it's more that but i think a lot of people. Did you now find extra Vitriol to spew. Because they'd also felt they've wasted years at the theater not getting the enlightenment and career opportunities that they promise themselves from which is exactly it is. Bs that like they would feel like the wasted years because no matter how many years i've spent you i feel like that's just with formed my comedic voice and writing and all that stuff so you and let's take a moment here. Let let's let's bring it back to the subject of actual leaders. And i just want to bring up a couple of things that i think are funny slash disturbing but mostly funny like part of the reason i love leaders is because of things like these like so for instance like shoko asahara leader of ocean. Rikio would his bath water dirty bathwater for like hundreds of dollars a bottle and his followers were drinking right. I mean just the fact that somebody can pull that off that i can give you my dirty bathwater and you think it's just like drinking it. So they they can they can mingle with the co. Mingle with the energy of the universe like well. Actually bell delfin the popular internet's ebay girl. also solter bathwater only sold it for thirty dollars a bottle So shoko she'll go is killing it. He he was getting way more money for his bath. Water and you know and you know another thing is lately. It's l. ron hubbard. What's the hilarious thing he did. Okay well when toward the end of his life when he was getting old and and he even though you're not supposed drugs in scientology was addicted all these pharmaceuticals and just a mess. He would send that he really low voice right. When you talk. Alarm ron hubbard. So he he had this council of young women that were like sixteen to twenty four and they were all like really attractive athletic. Good good looking. Women give you imagine like like like like a like a group of twenty models. Whatever dressed up in these like space suits and he would send he would send them to deliver messages to people sometimes threatening messages like they've show up at some law firm and and deliver l ron hubbard's threat to them but the but they had to always say in elrod voice so you can imagine this twenty year old like like vogue model girl in like a spandex spacesuit going up into your into your and be like this hour on hubbard submit to drop the lawsuit and then would leave. I mean like that's fucking hilarious bathwater. I believe i would like with the bathwater lady. Like it's obviously you know like someone's like fetish or whatever but like i mean like marshall applewhite from heaven's gate cult like he had like if you remember that when they were discovered all of his cult members who committed suicide. They're all wearing nikes right. That was a big thing that we're in nike shoes and they all had like five dollars and twenty cents in their pocket and so the thing behind the nikes they were just on sale. We should get new shoes for when we all kill ourselves so the nikes that they bought were just on sale. That's the reason ed nikes on. And then they'd five dollars and some change in their pocket was because marshall applewhite thought it was a funny joke. Like we're hitching a ride to a spaceship. It's bus fare. You hit you right on a spaceship without bus fare and demand. Do you all keep money in your pocket. Yeah exactly when you kill yourself. They all had the same amount of money in their pocket. And so it's all very macabre and an horrible and disturbing. But i just find this kind of stuff hilarious. Because it's it's just an example of how far like like like like what mankind is capable of likely like what the mind of a madman is capable of achieving and most of the time that results in horrific Disasters right like and just horrible crimes against people. But like i just love i just. I'm so fascinated by like these people who just think of this wacky shit and they put in they will it into existence focused their will and they make things appear in reality that didn't exist before that's fascinating but then like what's the deal. What's the bad deal with rush niche whereas near. She's like seems like a nice dude. No he did an attack. I think i think he will with the rise up the documentary but like his his. Okay the bhagwan rajneesh. He's he's a weird case because he had this massive following tons of money like worldwide. I mean it was like bigger than scientology. They had so much cash and but oddly. Enough the bhagwan rise niche was just kind of an idiot like us just kind of like a little things about things that she does have some interesting like. Enlightenment took from somebody. He's just it's crackerjack fucking philosopher saying anything that any other leader. We're all parts of one conscious mood within each of and then like the the mind is never enjoying the president because it's always seeking joy but is not enjoying joined the moment i. I mean like luther. All about for the bagua was was money. He loves rolls. Royces of one hundred rolls royces. He was treated like a god everywhere. You went so there's the personal fulfillment of that and what happened with that cult is that he was too passive and so like his number two. I can't remember what her name is. But but she she runs at me of the yoga lady from yoga house in pasadena. But she she. She looks very similar but but but she his number two who is the person on like. He was the one in like in the house on the hill that no one can talk to and he walked by and wave with his creepy is and everyone would like just fall in love with them but like his number two was the one who is the real. She was like the david miscavige in a lot of ways. Like like the one. That's really controlling really consolidating power for vengeance. You know and they did a ton of horrible things they tried to. They tried to poison an entire town to sway the votes of the get onto the city council and they've done a lot of really bad things but but but but it wasn't kapadia article keeps it very clean about him it. Does you have to kind of go farther to see. Because i thought the same thing i started reading i was like oh interesting. I wonder if this is an example of someone who lead like a cult but and then it ended up i see like bioterror event some and the oregon and they had like they took over this little town in oregon and the because of their numbers in their money. They're able to completely run this town so like the instead of normal police in the town. It was all rajneeshee followers with automatic weapons. You know walking around this town. With like ak forty seven ak pulling assault rifles like and these are supposed to be like followers of a of of like of like super chill eastern yoga school. You know and and they're walking around with with with with automatic weapons and trying to poison people. I mean like it's just a mafia. Yeah but i will say like with with the rise me. She people like. I think that was more of the. It was more of a case. Where like the cult. The cult followers ended up poisoning the well and bringing it down like that that organization could have easily just subsisted based on based on the cult of personality of the bhagwan but like it could have been a harmless thing but their their thirst for like money and power ended up corrupting the whole organization. But like it's less it's less the bhagwan in that instance and more. Sheila was her name. Sheila was that was the number to show the sheila. But so if you want to see the movie you guys are priorities. Seen but wild wild country is a fantastic documentary. All about this. I mean i can just watch tonight with you. I watch it with you know i. I don't know again. I it's interesting i think with And i mean it in the best possible way like there's so many teachers come out of india right. There's the culture of an remember. There was one who root gurus and the guru is a lotta times is treated closer to your heart a true teacher. The mother and father like it's just like for anybody to find their grew and to treat them closer than their parents. And i remember there was like one lady. She was calling sam christianson guru and she was talking about that because like this in her culture is like and i remember he was pushing that notion away because it was it was like three dangerous. It was india's an interesting place because it's really like like the the ground zero of cults really because there is this tradition of baba's and god milk. It's award language. Godman gotten these holy men who who can who who you follow and you give yourself up to. It's it's probably like the earliest cults and cult leaders in the world but not all of them are bad necessarily but but like the. It's definitely culturally there. It's a lot more accepted Way of let cult cheerily. But but yeah so. I mean it's dark subject and it. It's i feel guilty being so entertained and obsessed with it because it is at the end of the about real people ruining their lives relate figuratively or or really and But i don't know like i i'll just i'll never it'll never grow old to me like i just because again there's so much truth you can find fr from studying these stories and you can apply them to like you know like like trump and his followers and the cunanan people and stuff. It's like it's the colts mentality which is like it's like so many of us are susceptible to and i just. I think it's important to study this stuff because because you know the only way to avoid repeating the mistakes of the past start to learn about history and to avoid things like this because they always come in like new forms and mysterious new packages. Is it anything. Oh jaw or j. You'd like to add before we go to quick rating Now i guess just that. I think we're discussing shown anything. It's just that Colt nature is Inherent in our human nature. And it's comes in little sprinkles here and there throughout the world. It's just it at its maximum form really but we see it everywhere you desire to connect with another human being a lot of times to be part of the group right soon be part of the trump is survival so he you really goes back through survival and being afraid of being ostracized more than anything and sort of like find your own people and it's if you don't find your own whatever that like meet my be and maybe you end up with the wrong people. Yeah be careful out there we'll save. Let's do a quick radio. I don't know. I feel like we should do a little like scale interest. Put a couple of Each of us a one least favourite and won a fascinating. How 'bout one like. Wow fascinating call theater. And then one. That's do they use it do anything right because most of them are do by the way. A lot of women Well last last Jody or should we just make it up as we go no idea. Yeah i do this. But you know i would say as far as like. Maybe i'm just gonna use our typical scale I'm going to like. Let's say at the interest of in dysfunctional people. Let's say i find conman to be interesting to me on a scale. I would say an six for For colts. wow because they're killing people I think it's just no because it's not really. It's just about how interesting now. I don't think we're i. I'm not judging because obviously if we're if it's good or bad at zero and if anything it's just bad so what are you going to read it above that i. Yeah yeah did you. Did you finish that Just that yeah it's like I don't find them super interesting. Just because i think it ends up playing out relatively the same just with different colors. Yeah a oh. Okay i am. I'm actually going to do that. Scale and then also throw in a separate scale. You'll see what i'm doing so for the called leaders. Yeah i'm gonna actually take cult leaders against moore. Magicians like magicians not. Magicians like black magic but people were like to do bajic like in the magic council copperfield. The other guy. Ricky oh ricky jay ricky jay. The magicians for me are two. I don't give a shit like i don't give a shit and like my interest in reading bot. Magicians like how do they do it. What's the deal what's to story. How did they learn. I think maybe some conman. But i'll stick with the magicians and then the cold leaders think are at six my lead trysted and then go out there reading and like i forget everything i read anyway. Since it's impossible to interpret whatever this like this bit that we're doing what i'm supposed to say this number system i'm just gonna i'm gonna create my own my own show which which which is which is okay who is gonna be the all time best cult leader right right like who's who's the beginning right. Who's the fucking killed it. Yeah i you'd say more offensive. But l ron hubbard. Our i was going to say something and thirteen. So l ron hubbard. He's the best. He's the most successful leader. You could say mormonism lately like a more successful called. But john smith like he got he got lynched by a mob before the became a church. Like our ron hubbard and got to create this thing and baskin. Its glory until an inevitable. Sad death in a in a trailer in the desert and well he. He wasn't poor but he'd been yet. He was living in like disgusting. Flea-ridden trailer It's probably kill them. but allegedly but but It's like who's the worst cult leader in terms of not worst interns like didn't didn't accomplish anything but like probably one of the worst most sinister leaners shoko asahara shoko asahara option rikio really. There's a reason they don't execute criminals in japan. I think the last fifteen of the last twenty people have been executed in japan over the last thirty years have been like shoko asahara and his followers a year or two ago they had a bunch of them in jail and amish areco was gaining gaining strength again and so as a gesture of like this ship they took all these prisoners who are on death row and just executed them all in like a day so like this research. The you'll see why i'm this. He's by the most sinister evil motherfucker out there now. Who okay now. The third most failure though. No no no no no. This is who is the coolest who is the cruellest who the coolest co-leader ever and it's all listed. Curly undeniably will also croly. But it's undeniably charles. Manson charles manson was like like. I mean he's just he's like a tiny little scraggly rat man and just even though it's so dark and horrible what he did. He's he's the definition of cool like like he hung out with. Dennis will dennis wilson from the from the beach boys. He was recording. Terry melcher he he. He was partying it. Up in the laurel canyon in the sixties like charles manson is the rock and roll leader and and for for that he will always have a warm place in my heart. He's also horrible. Human being no for sure that goes saying all his co. Okay just making sure. Nobody's editing editing. Just that one bit online. No one's paying attention to what i had to say leaders but but for charles manson. He's looking short. Is who is the most like failed failed. He's in history but the damn he did it wrong. Oh i mean the biggest fail. Son of the cult leader genealogy fucking guy. Keith rainier the nexium guy. That guy just like like he just. He's just boring. I haven't even watched the vow you know like it's not interesting it's boring it's like it's like the at the height of banality you know. And like he didn't even do anything cool like he didn't even have a bunch of his followers murder themselves or like or he didn't like trying to poison a town like the bagua on. I mean like he didn't do anything cool. All he did was he got laid a little bit and then just like had a bunch of rich people give them money and now he's like he's he's he's just so mediocre like like low goal like accessible goals. Yeah and and he just looks like he looks like a total slob is haircut and he he just looks all looks. Looks like a little like a little frodo baggins like a little hobbit. He's he's just not impressive at all. And you like hobbits so. This is my love habits. But like he's one of the shitty roberts he's one of the ones that never left the shire grade Keith rainier near key through neary whatever. It is lamest cult leader. Wow wow well that covers a lot. I was surprised how far we've gone on this podcast. We cover it. I can go further. I know i know you gotta go. I gotta go parter okay. Great wash for coming onto this. Podcast really appreciate it. You're welcome as always. I love greece and with my presence. Show what's going on with you. You have anything to plug sure as always you can check me out at joke. Bail on twitter are usually post everything there and also check out my patriot. I just applauded some cool stuff today. Could get for a buck a month. And i've i've actually i think twenty new comic book pages will be posted very sin. So that's twenty pages comic for a dollar pretty much. What a great deal tell ya. Thank you joe for hosting with me. Thank you jay. Hundred onto this podcast. Thank you elizabeth salute for artwork in. Thank you bye walker for this amazing song. Thank you leaders called heaters. Thank you keep a real

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