Episode 443 | Determining Which Signals Matter, Staying on Task Without Extrinsic Motivation, and More Listener Questions


Hey, mike. You know, what the executor is in Star Wars. Yes. Isn't it? It's one of the star destroyers. But I don't remember which one I think I forget whether it's like the superstar destroyer or is it just one of the other ones. I believe it's it's Darth Vader's start astray. Yeah. Okay. Executor, and it's funny as to call it the execute when I was a kid because it kind of spelled like that. But I learned it's called the executor. So here's my question for today. How many bounty hunters are on the executor when the rebels are hiding in the asteroid field bounty hunters? Jeez, this is so is The Empire Strikes back as they they're all standing around any says like notice gonna gracious exactly and robot chicken, his denigrate parody of this. If anyone has not seen that go type in robot chicken Star Wars, bounty hunters. But how many oh God how many exactly I mean, there's between four and six if I had to guess I'd go on the higher end. There's probably six or seven actually I'll go with seven final answer. Sure. It is six very closer. I don't I would have said five, but Boba fett, Dan, gar Zukas four Lomb Bosc, and I g eighty eight in this episode of starters for the rest of us, Mike, and I discussed determining which signals matter staying on task without extrinsic, motivation and more listener questions. This is start up to the rest of us episode four hundred forty three. Welcome to start to the rest of us, the podcast spell designers, and entrepreneurs be awesome at building launching and growing software products with you built your first product. You're just thinking about it. I'm rob. And I'm Mike, and we're here to share our experiences Delpy. Void the same mistakes we made so we're this week sir yesterday. I was putting together a video for Google because I'm going through bless fall. They decided that they were going to come out with like their new privacy policy. And they're basically pushing it on everybody who's using their API is they're saying, oh, well, if you're using our API, and you're getting data from our customers, which technically they're arc Mike customers. But if you're getting dated from Google from those people because they are supplying their credentials, and it's passenger us you have to conform to these new rules around what you're going to be doing with data and how you surface that. So that users so they just basically announced it and Kasakh Tober or something like that. And they said, oh, these new things are coming. But we don't really have any details on it yet. But over the past couple of months, they've really started. Pushing forward with like the approval process, and I had to send them a video that walked through exactly how people authenticate through blue tick, and every single place where data that I get from Google is used and how it's used and show it in the privacy policy and everything else, and I'm just like, this sucks, and what sucked even more is. I created this thirty minute video, and then I went to basically dump it onto YouTube. Because of course, you can't submit it in any other way, except by putting the video on YouTube, and I found out that there is no sound. So I had to do it all over again. Nyia to rerecord it. It's like, this sucks. And I've read I tested the sound before like the first time to tested it it worked, and then I did the video and no sound like come on. That is no good. So you basically pissed away a bunch of time on something that really did not move your business forward. Exactly. We'll of course, this whole thing doesn't really move my business forward. But I don't know. I'm still have concerns about the whole thing because they say that depending on what you're doing. You may need to go through a third party security review. And they're like, oh, and that will cost anywhere from fifteen to seventy five thousand dollars, and I'm like. Yeah. I don't know about that interesting. Yeah. They must have an exemption. I'm guessing for small companies. I mean that seems like an odd thing to satellite with. It's like they have what is it? It's has like self-certification they're often things like that where it's a pain in the neck to do. But there is some out. So I guess they'd get serious backlash if there's if there's not, but that's that's not good, man. It's not good when because you've had this in place for a while. Right. And they've they've changed policy. Google changing, something and hurting someone's business. That's snooze shocker. The sad part about that. Is that I specifically built blue tick using I'm apps that I wouldn't rely on their API. So that if they decided to change things on me, then I basically wouldn't be affected and guess working out for me right now. Sorry to hear that man. It's tough. It's tough to rely on any third party. I mean, this I talked about when I had hit tail and how we were reliant on Google keywords. And then they did not provide it, and then we got into the master tools. And then they broke that they break that every six months. I mean, it was real really frustrating. And that was a big reason that when I wanted to start my neck startup. I didn't want to be reliant. And then you just wind up being reliant. You're relying on somebody at some point, right? You're relying on Amazon or Google for hosting. It's hard to switch. Yes. There are options. But it's a tremendous amount of effort to switch and new even just sending emails as as you. And I know like getting in spam boxes and on blacklists like that you become reliant on on them. And then you have to build all this infrastructure to keep people from from spamming people. And this is another example of you do something because it makes sense. And it makes it easier for your customers. And you know, in this case, it's really kind of get you into bunch of extra work to just maintain this thing. I mean, it's it is a double edged sword though in the it creates this hurdle that. If anyone wants to come in after the fact and try to build that like there, it just makes it more difficult for them. But just by virtue of building your app and making it better over time. That does the same thing generally. So I don't know soil trying to work through it. And I sent it off to them. And what was it? I sent it to the video to them and less than an hour later. They got back to me and said, okay, now, the this other thing needs to be fixed. I'm like, all right. So I fixed that and spent burn another three or four hours fixing that 'cause they're like you can have nonproduction systems using the same client ID. I'm like dear God, it's the same thing. Like, you know. All right. So I don't know. I just wish everything over and modify my build server and everything else. So anything else aside from technical integration? Challenge is going on with old blue tick. I've got my Lebanon that I'm doing which by the time. This episode comes out it will have been yesterday somebody in that for HR dot com. And we'll see how that goes. I got to get them the final PDF, so the slides and. So that they can put some of the website and then give the presentation on Monday. So that'd be good. Sounds good on my end. Just opposite push forward with tiny seed and things are going. Well, they're very time. And it's very excited about the the batches coming together quickly. We have almost all the startups selected and have made offers and sent paperwork and that kind of stuff. So there's a bunch of stuff. I mean, I I think I've said on the podcast in the past. Like legal is is the the bottleneck and has been now for a month or two because we've been we've been selecting and making offers, but it's like without the final paperwork, which is Lantana third party who isn't moving nearly as fast isn't moving with the same urgency that we are put it that way has been it's a little bit frustrating. I'm looking forward to getting past this this point because you know, not only did we have to incorporate and set up multiple wherein LLC, and a limited partnership and all this stuff which takes time then we have to. To have all these docs, drawn up, and we won't next time. You know, batch number two will not have the same level of of foundation building. And we'll have a lot more. We'll know more of what we're getting into and better systems to do it. But realistically, the systems are not what are holding us back at this point. It's it really is this reliance on third party who is moving at a glacial pace compared to us. So I look forward to being out from under that here pretty soon. It's it's interesting that you say that because it reminds me of don't know the inside story on this. But my guess is the that's probably the exact same reason. Why stripe came out with Alice was to help founders get past all of that stuff? So that they just didn't have to worry about the pace of the getting all the legal stuff taken care of. So just reminds me that it totally. It's it's friction and it's something specifically with atlas. It's something that every company that's not a sole proprietorship has to do. And so they just want there to be. The more of those companies, right? They wanna have that rising tide. And so they can remove that friction. I remember when the first I was like, wow, they're really going outside of their core competency. But now, I get what their long-term vision is just want to have more there be more businesses that are able to to get online. And of course, that's what outlets allows people to do super easy. And I wish you have said it before I wish there was stripe. Atlas for for celebrators for funds. There are some pre made things for their ridiculously expensive like to the point of being just a nonstarter. So we get to do it do from scratch. Good thing. I'm used to doing that. Don't know when things from scratch in other news, we we have a few more podcast reviews. I'll just read one of them from w king. I oh, he said I could listen all day. I do not own my own SAS. But I work for a small info product startup in. This information is so valuable I'm able to see this information in practice and know that I will have headstart whenever the moment strikes for my own apt from all the info, Robin, Mike share. So thank you for that to review we love a five star rating, or if you'd prefer to spend more time writing review, either one is fine in downcast, Stitcher. Apple podcasts wherever greater podcasts or sold. We appreciate it. Mike. When was the last time that you got something useful from Twitter. I come back since last week with somebody had lunch with them. And we connected over Twitter directly. So we've can warden noted that I guess you could say. That was a very long pause. Editor edited that out. But to the listener Mike was silent for about seven or eight seconds. Number two. Did you have each other's E mail or did you literally meet and connect because of Twitter had not existed. Would you guys have been able to coordinate that I mean, we probably would have somebody who joined the microphone academy years ago? And he's been I in Microsoft, and it's Josh from referral rock. Lunch lasts wanna say like goes, maybe Tuesday when are to say that was Monday at this week. So he was in down from Maryland. And just wanted to say, hi. And so we got together and chatted for awhile. But our businesses and how things were going, and it was a good sign like other than that. Like, it's been awhile since I've ever gotten any real value from Twitter like, you're right. There's a huge paws because and quite frankly, like, I don't log into Twitter very often anymore because I just I don't know. It's a lot of noise. That's what sweaters forced for noise. Arguments. Yeah. No. And I'm not I guess I'm not a hater. But I've really I've been trying to figure out how to get myself off of it because I find it more of a distraction than anything. But with that said, I haven't gotten anything valuable from Twitter in a very long time except for yesterday and today because I knew we were recording this episode. We didn't have an of questions to fill out a full episode. And with one tweet got frankly enough for probably two episodes or more so want to give a shoutout Twitter for for bringing the thunder for once every six months for me, or whatever. But anyways enough enough of the Twitter aiding a first question is a question that was posed on Twitter. It wasn't even directly to us. It was probably a few weeks ago. And I like emailed it to my trello board and got it over here. But Justin Jackson posted on Twitter. And he said one challenge I've had as a founder tracking and trying to train you late thousands of qualitative data points, somehow, you have to decide which signals matter, but even then plotting all those data points on a map and deciding on direction is tough. And then Allie bloom plied demonstrates same. I think about this pretty much all day every day. I think we should discuss. Because I have thoughts on this. Basically. How do you do this? Right. That. That's the question here is is how do we as founders? How do you as a founder do not is probably the best? The best question is you have a bunch of qualitative data. How do you decide on a direction when they are conflicting signals? I feel like I don't like this answer. I'll tell you that before I give it. It depends. No, just get even worse than that. It's like it's a lot of gut feel like you kind of go with what feels important at the time because it's hard to take some of that data and say like this is justifiably more important than that like based on whatever rules or like, you try to put in place like it's hard to put rules down on paper that are immutable. Like, there's always things that are changing. And there's always stuff that's going to factor into those decisions. Like, for example, the video that I had to do for Google it. It wasn't really all that important. And I pushed it off for a long time because I just wasn't ordinance. And there was a deadline where it's like, okay. You've got to be a week before we just outright reject your application. It's like okay now I have to do this now. And it's because like the priority has bumped up because there's a hard line in the sand, and it has to get done by that time or there's consequences, and I feel like a lot of my decision making around priorities tends to be driven by negative consequences of not doing something as opposed to like there's going to be a positive outcome for X Y Z because there's there's so many things that are going on at any given time and you have to try and juggle them all at once. And it's hard to do that. I actually think that's a good answer. I think gut feel is the first thing that came to my mind, I think rules of thumb are something that if you can possibly apply rules of thumb or expertise from other people who've gone down before it then start there. But if not. At the time. I got feel and Justin has he has stumbled upon or identified maybe a better word. He's identified the edges of where we can have of startup blueprint. And where things are you're you're drawing your own map. Right. Where the map ends in essence. So I actually have a tattoo on my my shoulder that is a map, and there's a hand drawing at the edges, and it's a metaphor for exactly this of going off the beaten path of originally. It was like, well, I'm not going to work nine to five a salary job. I'm going to go be a contractor and people that whoa, that's risky. And then I'm not going to do salaried work anymore. I'm going to build products. Wow. That's really risky, your heart. Can you even do that? And then while you're building those products, there's no map anymore or very very little map, and frankly ten fifteen years ago, there was almost no map, and then things like this podcast and even lean startup and customer development and Sastre and micro confident like those have. Enabled us to kind of develop a mental model and their books that come out on the topic and stuff, and it helps all of us have kind of a loose mapra loose blueprint. But there's always an edge to that. And this is the point where you have a bunch of data points to decide on a direction. There's no map. And this is where what separates I would say, you know, a poor founder from a mediocre mediocre from good a good from great is how well they're able to make these decisions. I would also say that this is at least for me gotten easier over time. I feel like I've gotten better at it about because here's what it is. It's making decisions without sufficient data. You don't have all the necessary data to actually make the decision. So you have to fill the rest in in your head. I believe there's almost never a right answer to these things. There's always multiple, right? Multiple tough wrong answers. I also believe that most decisions are reversible. Almost all decisions are very very very few. That are not the sum. You may think are not. Reversible. They may come with a cost monetary. They may come with relationship costs. They may come with agony pain time, whatever. But almost every decision is reversible. The ones that are truly not are the ones that I now agonize over and everything else, I tend to make a pretty quick gut feel decision realizing that if we need to change course, later, you can you I've I look at all this different data points in of see them as like their signals that point in a certain direction, but some of them are more important than others, and based on the situation or timeline or things that you're dealing with like some of them just are going to come out on top. When if you had rules on paper, it's very hard to create a set of rules that say exactly what to do or how to track those things and determine what matters because it's just in as you said like, I think that that's a really good point about the fact that there are these guidelines and rules of thumb that you can follow. But at the same time, they're just signals. That's all it means in in. There isn't a. Right or wrong answer. Unless you're looking at it in retrospect in retrospect, there was always a right answer or a best answer optimal answer. But because you probably are working with only about thirty percent forty percent of the complete picture at any given time you have to I I'll call it guessing a little bit. But it's more like educated model recognition of what's going on. That's why microcosm decided it's like so important, and these conferences and communities where other people have seen those types of things, and they can recognize it essentially on your behalf if you have not been there before and you haven't and you are not able to directly recognize it. That's why mentors help that's why exhilarated programs work like, Paul Graham. I would imagine to walk into just about any startup and give pretty solid feedback about why will won't work and probably be very reasonably accurate on it just by virtue of having talks to fifteen hundred thousand or three thousand startup founders and helping them through all those different situations. Right. There's a book called. Sycip by chip and Dan heath it's about how to make decisions, and I believe Ruben Gomez from pits catch turned me onto that. But I listened to it a couple years ago and something they say that book is just because the outcome. Turns out bad doesn't mean it was the wrong decision. Those things are not linked. You know like you make the best decision. You can with the data you have. And with the the information, and the gut feeling and whatever else, intuition, whatever you wanna call it. And then you do the best you can you know in U verse it if you need to or you're correct course as you move forward. I think that's actually a problem for a lot of people myself included, a, you know, a large extent is trying to figure out can I just make a decision and move on or even just recognizing that ultimately the decision that you make is going to like, you're reasonably smart person. You're gonna make the best decision with the information. You have at the time, and it may turn out to have been a sub optimal answer or solution to whatever it is. You were trying to do but waiting is not necessarily going to. Help you very much like you're basically just wasting time. At that point when you could have been trying to move something forward in one direction or the other, and maybe it was the wrong direction. But as you said those types of things tend to be reversible, and yes, it could take some pain. But if you wait around for enough information you have wasted so much time. And then you still have to do it. So moving is better than not moving opportunity costs right of postponing or agonizing. You're waiting procrastinating. Whatever we're gonna look for of a decision, it's hard. And that's why most people don't do this. Because it's you know, don't start companies because it's it's uncharted. And it's scary. And it takes a while to get used to in it's uncomfortable. And I think that that's when you know that you're probably I won't say doing things, right? But it's like, you know, that when you're you're in a zone of personal growth is when you're doing things that are making you feel not comfortable. That's when you're going to get better. So cool. Glad Justin through that out on Twitter. Our next question is about how to stay on task with no extrinsic motiva-. No external motivation. It's from Mike Manfred. And he's at Manfrin on Twitter. He says how the hell do stay on task when you have no extrinsic motivation. I've been letting myself spiral out second and third guessing design decisions and getting absolutely paralyzed with choice and scope that I end up doing no work towards my startup and then Ken Wallace chimed in think about having a mastermind because those folks can guide you, and I actually think that's a good thing. We should throw out. I mean that's often with the bigger decisions. That's why I'd rely on someone in a mastermind, but what other thoughts you have here for Mr. man. It's interesting to this question comes up because I kind of just talked about it, which was like you get it's very easy to run into that situation. Where you're you're not sure what to do. So you wait, and you second guess yourself. And you don't do the work because your second and third guessing your design decisions in thinking that if you look at the problem more or you try to gather more data is going to help you in some way, shape or form, and it usually. Doesn't. I mean, I think that's a very different problem than not having motivation. Whether it's you know, intrinsic or extrinsic like that's a different problem than being in a situation where you second guess yourself in. You're not sure what to do. So you try and gather more information, I think those are two completely different problems. Yeah. I agree. He says, how do you stay on task when you have no like external motivation, right? And I I've definitely had times especially when I'm when I start to burn out, or when I'm feeling depressed when I don't get enough sleep their seasonal times or it's dark outside and cold and stuff where I am unmotivated to do things, and I really struggle to stay on task. And I often those are the times where I strategically breakout caffeine. I turn on bright lights turn on loud music. I use all kind of the sensory options that I have to try to get myself into his own, and I try to get into a routine where when I hear this playlist start or when I heard this single song that I'm endlessly looping start that that triggers me to force myself to get in and do. Things. Now, the nice part is I haven't it's probably been a year or more since I've felt that way. But I I've gone through months and months of of stretches of that. That's how I do it. But he's also then asking he spiraling out second guessing design decisions getting paralyzed with choice in scope. I mean, this does tie into that. First question, you know, or first proclamation that Justin made of like, how do you make these decisions and knock it paralyzed with choice. And that's where we said like this is hard. It's got feel you can undo things later. I think a lot of us as developers don't wanna make the wrong choice because we feel like we'll have to rewrite all this code refractories pain in the butt. And if we make this this design decision in the database than will never live it down never be able to correct it. And while it will be painful to correct these things are reversible. So that's where I tell myself actively if I find myself being hung up in the first thing is to identify that you're doing this. And being like, I'm not being productive right now because of this because of this. Decision or this item in metro board. Or this Email? Why am I not doing that M? I stressed about it. I am. I just don't want to face it. My scared that I'm gonna make the wrong decision. You know, there's a bunch of things that I will try to identify. And they'll say, okay, if I'm stressed about it, then why? And then why? And then why keep asking the wise to get to the true source of it to figure out if I'm actually stressed or if it's a design decision that I will either think to myself like, well, I'm going to call up XYZ person who I know has a great design and usability sense. And I'm gonna ask for fifteen minutes of their time and say can you help me with this? So that I have some some sense of calm about the decision or maybe I just make a gut feel and I go forward, and you know, hope it's the right decision. So the these are kind of tactics that I would use right trying to get other people involved, and I do think kuenz can Wallace's suggestion of of having a mastermind so that you can bring these things to people on a regular basis. I think is a good one can of course, rents mastermind jam which matches people up into in the startup space into Masterman. But I think that those are those are also like two different pieces of it one is recognizing it. And then to actually address in the problem, and I think the recognition of it is something that tends to take much longer than it probably should for most people. And I found that myself is like I kind of mentally know that I'm not making progress on something, but I don't necessarily allocate time to analyze like, my productivity to like at noon, for example. It's like I don't have a fifteen minutes that I set aside and say am I making progress today doing what I expected to do and my procrastinate on stuff or just not doing things because I don't want to or I'm afraid to make mistakes. I think that the identification pieces the part that kind of creeps up on us and it last far longer than it should if we aren't on the lookout for it kind of at all times. So what I do. For example. I do a lot of journalism. So I have a an app that sends me an Email and says like, hey, right into this little thing here in you. Can explain like what your day is supposed to be like, for example. And I do that on a fairly regular basis. I'd say probably at least three or four if not five days a week. And then I will notice the following day. If I'm not making progress on something because I will I'll be like a little annoyed and usually my sleep will be suffering. And I'll say, oh, I didn't get a good night's sleep last night because I was thinking about this. And it makes me think about this stuff. So it's kind of a forcing function mammy that's something that people can think about is trying to just I won't say journal your way out of it. But I don't look at us full-fledged journal. And it's like I might write a couple of sentences or maybe a paragraph or two, and it's usually like the stuff that's bothering me. And that just brings it to my attention that maybe like if I start writing a lot like I know that I need to pay attention to it. Maybe take a step back, but otherwise I can easily go a couple of weeks or a month or two without really noticing. And then all of a sudden, it's like, oh, I burns two months, and I've got nothing done. That's a good point the faster. You get an basically knowing. Itself, right? At at noticing that you're having kind of negative thought patterns or negative behaviors or behaviors that are causing you to procrastinate or go in circles or whatever faster able to do that. And identify it. The faster you're able to actively attack it get through it and make progress. And I think this is something all of us struggle with in one form or another. And I think this is something that you get better at overtime. If you if you focus on this is so much of what you know. My wife, Sherry does on this end founder podcast, and in her writings, and such is looking at how these thought patterns, you know, come about how to identify them how to how to get through them. I've been saying for quite a while that I think sixty seventy percent of entrepreneurship is is mental. You know, I think more than half of entrepreneurship is purely just dealing with your own psychology, your own things that self sabotaging behaviors procrastination, whatever it is that you struggle with if you can learn to overcome that. You will have such an easier time and make so much more progress so much faster. I mean, this is from I'm saying this from personal sprints that getting into your own psychology. And whether that's with spouse or a mastermind or trained professional, you know, who who is either therapist or a business coach, or whatever I think, it's I think it's invaluable. So thanks for the question. Hope that was helpful. Our next question is from at Greg dig Neo on Twitter. He says my question revolves, how you and Mike manage your time. Rob you build an exit accompany. You guys are both. Parents you run a conference. You have the podcast you write books might loose question is what does your day slash week? Look like, so it was kind of asking it in a d a couple of different ways. It's like, how do you manage your time? And what is it typical day week, look like, and I think he's probably looking for the days or weeks where we're more productive not the ones where I stare at my computer for three hours don't get anything done. And then just wander off to go for a walk because I realize I'm. Not actually focused. I tend to look at it on a weekly basis. So my weeks I'd say for the most part are pretty similar, so so I I work from home and the weeks that I tend to get screwed up as when the kids are home from school. So let's see here if I'm starting on Monday Monday's, usually my heavy work say, so I have it blocked off on my calendar. So even if somebody wants to schedule time with me using Callan lead, they simply can't I have a hidden calendar that I could send them a link if I really needed to talk to somebody on a Monday, but typically I don't hand that out to people, and it's usually, you know, on a case by case basis, Tuesday's is not blocked off. But I tend to I don't know I tend to get a fair amount of work done on Tuesdays is well Monday, I usually will work late. So like seven eight o'clock at night, just because I tend to not have anything else going on Tuesdays is a little bit lighter. And then in the evenings on Tuesday night. I have a game that I play every week. And then see here Wednesdays. I probably do less. Work and then Thursdays. I do less work in Friday's. I try to get things done and set up for the following week. Saturday's like dude bunch of stuff around the house, take the kids to whatever they have music lessons or soccer or what have you Saturday night? I have another an online game that I play. And then Sunday is usually kind of do whatever we usually clean up around the house and stuff like that. But that's I mean my week is pretty straightforward for the most part. I don't know about how about you. Do you have do you do it on a daily basis or a weekly basis? I tend to think about things on a daily basis. Most of my days are different from one another. So we home sharing I collaboratively homeschool one of our kids, and he's he's older. He's almost thirteen. So it's not like we're sitting there teaching him stuff. He's online doing taking courses, and you don't make him progress on his own, and then we just have to kind of monitor and poke in and so some of my days, I'm kind of on. And I know that I can sketch. Fewer calls that day because I don't wanna be interrupted. And then other days are I'm just completely focused on work. So I look at it a day-by-day basis. What I what I've noticed about myself is that I used to code when I was writing code. I could sit and write it for twelve hours straight. And I used to do that was actually my optimal way of functioning was to sit down and get momentum's and break, very briefly to eat or he's the bathroom and then get back in a minute. I would do twelve fourteen our co days and make get two or three days worth of progress done in that amount of time. And I think I don't know if it's as I've gotten older, or if it's that I don't code anymore because co the coding was a very logical left brain. There's some creative in it. But compared to what I'm doing now where I'm like actually actively producing content and having to think things through in these higher level decisions are very there are a lot more taxing on my on my good glucose so to speak. You know, there's only so much good brain functioning that you can have writers who write books Stephen King. These highly predictive writers, they don't write for ten hours a day to tend to get up right in the morning for between three and four hours tops. And then they spend the rest of the day doing other things because there's only so much good focus you have. So now what I've what I've found is that. I'm highly productive in short bursts, say one to two hours, and I try to have a forcing function that forces me to stop because if I don't I will tend to just work two three four hours straight, and I feel my productivity just descend over the, you know, the subsequent one or, you know, the last one or two hours that I'm working, and I have different forcing functions. Oftentimes, it is a child getting from school or I take the kids to the kids to jujitsu, and it's only about an hour that were sitting there, and it's Greig get so much done in that our and it is the worst working conditions. It is terrible. I'm s-, I'm hunched. I've no plug. I have no chair. I'm literally hunched against the wall. Like, I'm in junior high and Jim or something, and I'm like sitting almost Indian style with my back to the wall. Call terrible posture. I have a laptop there, and I get more Email done in that forty five to sixty minutes. Then I do to our sitting in my house, and I have no external monitors. I have nothing and it's loud. And but there's something about that space. And the fact that I know my time is so compressed that I just hammer through to do a hammer through through Email. So that's just one example. But I have a bunch of times like that during the week that I'm finding there's kids music lessons. There's other things where I find that. If I force myself to only have this much time that I get the work done faster. And so that's a personal hack that I've been doing I've been doing lately, I think another thing is these are low level like how to get things done quicker on a higher level. I say no to everything except for what's on my goal is for the year. And so if you look at running a conference, you I just do that that's on the to do list. You know, like I feel like I'm I'm pretty efficient about it. Feel like I focus on it when I need to. And then I make it a priority. The podcast is something that we've essentially automated almost all of it. So you and I show up for two hours every other week, and that's to episodes, and we walk away. And then episode goes live next to episodes. Go live. We don't do anything else. So we've automated we paid for years. I mean since ten episodes in we've paid for an editor who posts the episode who writes, the show notes who does all that stuff writing the books. I view it when I'm going to write a book, I will make that a priority, and I will work on it every day. I will probably I would if I was writing a rising my book right now, I would probably do at least an hour of that once a day. And then I would continue to do my other stuff, but I wouldn't say, yes. To a bunch of things, right? I say no to some interviews. I say no to a lot of opportunities to jump on a call with. So. And so to explore this or that, I say, no to speaking, you know, some conferences, not all. But if I don't think it's values my time. I saved the t to travel days. And the time to write the talk and all that. And I put push that towards things that I feel like my highest priorities that are in my goals and things that hopefully will bring the most value to me, but also most valuable to this community that we build and more value to more people. I mean, I think that's something else. I've had to tone down. I don't do as nearly nearly as many one on one things because I find that it can be more valuable by writing a book or recording a podcast or reading a conference talk. That can be distributed to thousands or ten tens of thousands of people. I also don't like doing things that are ephemeral writes things that don't stick around. So to me a blog post is better than a tweet because the tweets on a book is better than bog post because a book six around for a long term. You know, there are things that just it's a body of work that I think that this is kind of a lesson that I've learned over the years is to focus on those things that that that helped more people that stick around longer that have deeper meaning in bring more value to both yourself and the people that will. Be consuming it that was a longer answer than I thought I thought I had to say on that topic. But I think that was a good. I think it's a good question. I think number like higher level. It's like it's about priorities and saying no to everything else number one. And number two. It's about staying motivated over the long term and showing up every day and getting done at relentless execution. Right. Is this phrase that I've used that? It's a personal monitor that I have have adopted relentless execution. And that doesn't mean you go crazy and you worked twenty hour days because I haven't worked more than forty hours a week do in a decade. You know what I mean? I mean, there've been the short stints like when I was revamping hit Taylor sixty hour weeks for about six weeks. And then I and then I pare back to my to me like a thirty five forty hour week schedule is ideal sometimes thirty depending on the the season of the year. But I find that I get more done when I actually have shorter weeks and I'm forced to to make quick decisions. And it's done. I do as well. Have you know, in the back of your mind that you have as much time to work on something as you want. You can just take as much time as you need than it will take forever. Like, you're I think it's what is it Taylor's law. The amount of work will expand to fill the available time. I find the same thing. Like, I will hold off on making decisions because I know that I have time to kind of ruminate on it or I will take longer to do something just because I have the time available. And that's that's actually what makes my Mondays a little bit. Toughest that because I give myself a lot more time on that day. Sometimes I'm not necessarily as productive. And then I'll find that sometimes on Tuesdays, I will be more productive, even though I have less time available to me to do work. Yeah. I can totally see that. And I you know to come back to Greg's question. He says what is your day or week? Like, I feel like every day for me tends to be different. But I do like hitting things hard Monday morning by getting up. And I asked myself the question when I started like what has to get done today or what has to get done this week? What will move the business forward, the most, you know? And when it was drip. It was like, well, it's getting everyone on the, you know, the whole team on the same page and getting this decision made about what feature to build or this big deal. We're trying to close and now with tiny seat. It's like it's it's choosing the batch in. It's getting that Ford to those go right to the top of the list, even if I get in my Email box, and it has fifty things the things that are on the topic of of what I have to get done that day, I skim through it. I take care of all that stuff first. And then everything else is on the side. I would say that my days. Probably don't look like you think they do. I start work later a bit later than you probably think, and I ended earlier than you think. And I didn't use to do that again. I mean, I think that that's where we're coming back to is like forcing yourself to get stuff done in a shorter time frame. Ain't it comes back to this? The cult of of the Silicon Valley startup hours where they're like, I'm working eighty hour weeks ninety hour weeks or whatever your productivity plummets. There have been a bunch of studies that have shown that it plummets after forty fifty six hours a week. They've done it in construction with construction workers when they go to six and seven tens you literally when you were estimating those jobs, you have this major markdown factor, and there it's there's books published by the electrical contractors who say these are guidelines, and it'll drop thirty percent over fifty hours in a drops forty percent over sixty hours. And and it's not just for those last twenty hours it starts to fatigue, and then your entire seventy hours that you're working become sixty percent as effective, you know. And and it's this crazy thing. And that's where the Silicon Valley startups to say or the founders who say on just working all these hours. I'm always thinking. Yeah. What are you? What are you doing? What are you actually? Publishing during that time because I find that I've been able to get quite a bit done in my career and my life, and I don't do that. And really never have even when I was coding when I talk about coding, those twelve or fourteen hour days. It was my early twenty s we had no kids, and what I would do as a contractor consultant, and I would code long day. And then I'd take the next day off. So it wasn't that. I was working long weeks. It was that I prefer the batch my work into a single stint. So to speak a felt like it was more productive to once. I got everything loaded up into my head in the mental model. I hated stopping and losing all of that. And having to regain it the next time I sat down I would agree with the like, I do wonder about some of the studies and stuff that where they say, oh, if you're working more hours than it's not as good you're not nearly as productive. But I do find that there's times where you get into a rhythm. And you're in the zone, if you break out of it to take breaks and shorter days or something like that. Like, it's kind of hard to load your brain up with all the stuff and all the little details that need to be there in order. For you to get certain types of work done. And I'm certainly not saying that like it's broadly applicable, but there's times we're especially when it's coating like taking a break is extremely disruptive. And it's so much easier to just down there and bang and stuff for like four six hours or eight hours. And if you're still being productive than you know, there's not a great reason to stop except for those forces. So thanks for the question, Greg. I hope that one was helpful. If you want to connect with Mike or I on Twitter, I am at rob walling. And he is at single founder feel like that probably wraps us up for the week, Mike, I think it does. So if you have a question for us, you can call it into our voicemail number one, eight eight eight zero one nine six nine zero or you can Email it to us at questions that starts S com. Our theme music is not surp- for well controlled by moot. Use under creative Commons. Subscribe to tonight tunes by searching for startups visits starves the rest of dot com for full transcript to be tip said, thanks for listening. And we'll see you next time.

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