Ep. 8 VP of Brand at Global Sports Marketing Co: Be There When Nobody Else Is with David Cipullo
Give us some insider information. How do you build those relationships? What are your seat grits for like delighting and wowing your clients, so that they say I got a sponsor with David? It's not so much. The wow, it's the genuineness. I think I think you, you need to connect. And most importantly, I think you need to put yourself in their shoes and in any sales role. It's what is that person thinking, and what does that person need to succeed in their role? What's their selfish interest to it? And that's the number one thing from a while standpoint. That's David gigolo speaking. David is the vice president of brand sales intelligence and consulting for the global sports marketing firm, infront sports. And I'm your host of this level of your leadership podcast. Lisa, Kristen, we're have conversations with exceptional leaders, like David unpack how they created their success and to discover their recommended won't tips and strategies that inspire listeners like you to take your leadership the next level they bit as an exceptional salesman. When I like most about David is that he's the exact opposite of what you think of when you think salesman, he's not that to smooth talker that you feel a little bit unsure about saying, I'm asleep. He never feel like he's being wishy or forcing an idea our product on you. It's just very natural. He's humbling. He's funny and have to say this, I don't know. The like this, but he's silly in the best possible ways. And that's really the reason that I invited David onto the past because there's actually a method to what he's doing. It's not an accident that David's career has taken off. He is a master at selling his he does one thing. He puts the customer first and I know that that's everyone's advice and selling. But what makes even different is the way that he executes. So I found that really interesting when he said he actually writes, a hand written. Thank you note, first of all, who does that anymore. But he has a handwritten thinking when he loses a pitch. So not when he wins in his thinking I am. But when he doesn't get the pitch because he slowly building relationships. That's what David does is he's all about the long term relationships, and maybe it didn't work out. But maybe it will the next time or maybe that person leaves and goes to another firm remembers how David Wadsworth has good sports and that's. Hoped to even builds trust. And you know, trust is everything in sales. That's just one example of what David does, if you want your more tips, about how to develop trust and sales, and in general how Bill long term relationships that brings success. You're gonna wanna listen to the rest of this episode. So enjoy this podcast episode with David gigolo. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of level up your leadership. I'm here today with David Tupelo. Welcome. David. Thank you. Lisa used to be here. Yeah. Well, we, we have had some fun times together outside of the podcast, because we've known each other for I don't even know how many years now and I've gotten to witness some fantastic. Halloween, costumes. I won't go into any details about nights out or vacations that you've taken with my husband to Las Vegas during March madness days there. Yeah, what happens in Vegas? Stays in Vegas, but I will say, you know, our families our friends, we've come to really enjoy each other because you have a really special personality, you're very fun to be around very funny. And that's why I wanted to have you on the show today. You have this personality that people are just naturally drawn to, and I would love to get some insider tips and information about how do we how do we extract that charisma for ourselves? Yup. For the talent. It's all right. So did your in sports marketing, and I think a lot of people listening may or may not know what sports marketing actually is can you? I just give us a background. What is sports marketing? The common I thought is always Jerry Maguire. Everybody goes to that. And thanks everybody in sports. Marketing is agent. And some are some are very good at it. But there there's a lot more to five hundred billion to one point three trillion dollar industry, no one depending upon how you measure it. And measurement can come from everything from the actual games and tickets and merchandise to TV and broadcast to security, and transportation and seating at the venues. Do you consider the hot dog sold at a stadium part of that industry? And so it goes everywhere including charities is a big part of it. So it really extends extremely wide and people looking to get into this career can kind of pick and choose. It's not just narrowed to being an agent. Well, that's really fascinating. Because I never really thought about the hotdog at the baseball games that I go to. And how did you get into sports marketing? I guess really the question is are you a sports fan? I mean, is that where it all started? Yes, I grew up my whole life. Everything was sports. My father was an athlete in a coach and sports. He played basketball and trial to the professional level baseball had tryouts at the professional level, but, you know, it's been part of our whole life growing up, and then coaching high school basketball. So it's been a part of my every day from morning sound like the old man but it was get up at sunrise, go out and play sports trade baseball cards, in the evening play kick the can release or these different games that are sort of active. And until you get called back into the house at dinner or dark. You're out playing sports or doing something revolved around sports. So my whole life has been that through college. So then you were always a sports fan sports was really like a part of your. Life. So when you were a kid, did you say, oh, I want to be a professional athlete. Or did you say I want to sit in a computer all day? I wanted to just be part of it in some way, and as you're growing up. You obviously want to be an athlete, and then due to my size or partially due to my size. I realized that wasn't happening. But then I looked at somebody like Bob Costas, and wanted to be an announcer, and Bob Costas, or wanted to be a coach. But then as you develop through university and schooling you learn that there are other skills and other opportunities in an industry, and you find some of those opportunities, and I knew longer wanted to be a broadcaster, but I saw their opportunities in business and grew from that you also as you're doing sports growing up, you learn your life lessons of the cliches, but it's teamwork and dedication and loyalty and all those wonderful things that you learn through sport, and you also have experiences, I grew up in white suburbia. And played sports in that environment. But also, it gives you the exposure to different races and cultures and opportunities. I went to a basketball camp as a nine year old and you sleep on the floor of the YMCA, and I was the only white kit in the entire in the entire gym sleeping on the floor. And you realize that you learn life lessons I was given the token MVP I definitely wasn't the best athlete there. But I think they saw the heart and the desire and the obstacles to overcome in that situation and I got a life sized, Dr J cardboard cutout that stayed in my room for years. So. That sounds like the dream winning prize for nine year old basketball. It was a Butte. And so you have all these great experiences. You serve learned about life. It sounds like I mean diversity learning their different people that do different things in different ways and look different from you and you learn all these lessons you said teamwork. We're probably going to come back to some of this, because I'm sure that it influenced, how you work in business how how you work with others, and how you have gone across your career and moved up across the ladder by one to take a step back and just talk to you a little bit about your first jobs that you had because you were with a US basketball team was is basketball. Your I love basketball my favorite. So I saw that you were working for the Washington Wizards US basketball team. And you also worked at the US Olympic Committee. So how did those shape where you wanted to go within sports marketing, 'cause she said, there are so many different places you could go even within sports marketing. I graduated from college at James Madison and fortunately, the got an internship with the US Olympic Committee, hopped in my old, Honda Civic, and drove across the Colorado, Colorado Springs and did a three to four month internship, which was the perfect way to start because the Olympics and the USOC it's very altruistic and it is about the athletes and we lived on the training center with the athletes. So we ate in their cafeteria. We hung out with them. We went out with them. And so it was really fun to be around, but it wasn't necessarily the NBA star, then fell store these were up and coming potential, gold medalists. But were you there with anyone that we would now know their name is sure, I think there were a lot of the swimmers were EMMY Van Dyke in was probably the most famous, I think she's one five six seven gold medals, there were a lot of swimmers a lot of wrestlers alone. Jim. So I mean, most of them have won medals over the years. And this was back in nineteen Ninety-seven. And so it was just a great experience. Because it was so altruistic and natural to sports. So it was a great entry then you move over to the Washington Wizards, and you get into big business and you see the difference, and there's value to both, but they're different and the NBA is a business, and it's a big business, and there's. There's quite a difference in different experiences. But it was a good way to get into the business to see both sides. And so you work both you've seen both sides. You got a glimpse of the love of sport. And also the business of sport. And how did that impact case if they were internships, how did that impact where you chose to then work or chose not to work? Even better, why did the internships? And I had trouble finding a job. And so I went back to the post college life of waiting tables, and bartending and doing odd jobs. I was building putting greens in people's backyards and sort of not a career, which was fine. And when I was about twenty seven I decided to go back to graduate school for sports management at George Washington, University, and the first week, I signed up and started classes and applied for a job at clear channel slash SF exports. Which are, which is a big major agency and they had posted the job on monster dot com. And so they had eleven eleven hundred resumes CV's that were put in there. Luckily, one of my professors work there and put mine on top, and I was definitely not the most qualified of the eleven hundred but got the position and I had to decide whether I stayed in graduate school because I had a great. Job in sports. I ended up staying, but it was great to get the degree, but also to continue working full-time, while I was in graduate school as well. But I have so many questions, I'm sorry to first of all, I always say, this people don't believe me when they say, I can't find a job or I can't move ahead my career and I'm like build your network as a coach. It almost no matter what you're asking for. Well, that's not really true. But so many people as, as a coach, I have to recommend to them build your network, because you don't always have to be the most qualified. It's not just you work hard with your head down, and someone's going to notice, you have to know someone who can put your CV in front of the right person, for example. So I'm glad that you brought that up as a living example, they gave you a chance and you took the chance, a new brand with it. You know, it wasn't that you were a bad hire. And they took pity on you. You were a great hire. And it was all about the network. But to I have to go way back to the story I was looking for a natural break. But what did you learn? Working odd jobs until you were twenty seven and what was the pivot point where you said, I want to go back to school, or I gotta get some form of a career. There wasn't a pressure to go get a career. I mean you make good money by tending in your living, nice life. But at some point, I just said, okay, let's move on and go forward, and I said, schools are good buying of two years to go do that. So I could still have fun for two more years. But unfortunately, I got a job in between and had to do both, so the fun part kind of ended, and I did enter the real world at that point, I don't believe you for a second because sports marketing, and from what I know about your lifestyle where, you know, you're traveling here, and there you're in China. You're in the US. You're in Brazil, you're attending sports events like, oh, I got to go to the US open. Oh, darn I'm quote unquote working did the fun really end Rono. It didn't end. It was still very fun. And I'm working on things. But it you still need the basic principles of business sports isn't any different than any other business, and you still need to learn. How to sell how to market how to market yourself how to market your products? And so the principals are still exactly the same. It's just in what I believe to be more enjoyable and fun atmosphere. Well, let me ask you. I'm just gonna skip right ahead because I want to hear all of your secrets, as I mentioned in the beginning, you're very successful. You've built yourself a great career. You're very charismatic. Everybody likes you. So what are the tips? You take the apply some business rules. But how do you how do you create these relationships with the people that you're selling to overtime? I'd say the, the biggest mistake early on in your career as I said, I didn't start till twenty seven twenty eight even to go back to school. But every they're still the pressure, particularly in the US to jump into your career and get going. But it's completely different now you don't retire at sixty five some people are working till they're eighty five ninety so that's sixty years. And I didn't. Take the long haul when you're young, even though I took my time to get into the business. But then you still have even if I'm five years delayed, I might still have six fifty five years of working. So I didn't take the long approach, and if you look at it strictly from a sales perspective, all you need when you're selling things of higher value, which many sponsorships are is one good. Contact a year and that good enough for having success in the industry. And if you take the long-term approach and say, I'm going to develop one relationship a year or two relationships year that in some industries is good enough and instead of always looking to the networking part as you say networking critical, and it's vital to it. But it doesn't have to be a thousand people at a time it can be five or six people or two people or one person if you go to a conference, I would much prefer to set up a dinner with five six seven eight. People then go to a five hundred person happy hour because it's very top line. And sometimes artifices sometimes not. But it's very top line, no matter what when you're at a happy hour. Whereas when you're at dinner with three four five, six seven people as much more meaningful, and that's all you need in most careers, say your ear saying network is not really about breads. It's really about depth in really developing long-term, relationship and really going deep with a few key people. I think if you take the long-term approach, yes, and it also depends on the industry that you're in this industry. Yes, I think depth is much more important than breadth. So having you give us some insider information. How do you build those relationships? What are your secrets for like delighting and wowing your clients, so that they say I got a sponsor with David? It's not so much. The wow, it's the genuineness I think I think you need to connect. And most importantly, I think you need to put yourself in their shoes. And in any sales role. It's what is that person thinking, and what does that person need to succeed in their role? What's their selfish interest to it and that's the number one thing from a while standpoint? And again, I am in sports, so there is a while, if I take somebody to a sporting event, we have a common bond that lasts much deeper because it is an exciting and emotional experience. And I have that with that person forever. Whereas if I go to conference, and I might have a drink or a nice night out with somebody, but it isn't as deep and meaningful because you don't have that emotional connection. So I have that advantage. But so does everybody else in my industry. So I'm still competing in the same fishbowl. So how do you how do you differentiate yourself what, what's unique about David? Is there anything that you could share? I would say one thing that I've tried to practice or learn is to do things when you don't need things. And I think it's important when you don't get a deal with somebody to send a note and say, hey, thanks. That was a good process. Unfortunately, we didn't get to where we wanted to. But that was a nice process that we both hopefully learn something from or I tried to. And now it's still challenging from a time perspective. But every year, not at Christmas time sending the Christmas card. I would do it in June or something, and try to connect and go through and look it not the entire contact list. But as many people's I wanted to connect with and go find something relevant and send them if it's an article about their business if it's a lead for their sales, if it's something about their family. If it's something about their employees complement their employees. I think those are really important things to do when you don't have a need. And I think that comes comes back around over time again, if you're playing the long game of this, that will come back around doesn't mean you're going to get a sale that year hit your numbers that year. But I think if you help people and do it when they're not in need. Everybody sends a congratulations. When somebody gets a new job, it's more important when they're looking for a job to say, hey, how can I help you? Yeah. So being proactive and meeting their needs in being present and taking an interest in their lives and being there at the times when everyone else, isn't there, and that they really could be grateful that you showed up. I think that's much more valuable than the congratulations, when they get a job because they get one hundred more now with linked in, they might get ten thousand more, and I'd like the sportsmanship that you said, even if we lost the game, you're still going to shake hands. Right. You're still going to send a note and say, thanks for the process, and that stands out that good good conduct. I don't know what else to call it, it stands out that people go. Wow. He's a real sportsman. It's really appreciated and it is the old school of send a handwritten note. That's one of the things. Absolutely do. And I recommend to anybody coming up a nice gift to one of your interns, or junior staff is to get them, monogrammed, paper or to send thank you. It's a nice encouragement, if they have it, they might do it. That's a great tip. If I had an intern I would. I'll apply. Wants to be. So tell me you worked all over the world because you were, you are American, you started working in America, but then you came over across the pond. And you landed in England, what was that like crossing cultures? That was exciting and fun. I was working for a company called team services elves in Chicago, and working on public private partnerships, which is outside of the sports realm a little bit. We were working for a governor that is now in prison for selling President Obama's Senate seat in Illinois, at the time and we're doing public private partnerships for them. So, again, the principles of business go outside of sports and it was a fun exciting thing, but my wife and I wanted to do something more adventurous and go do something internationally. And we spent thirty days just traveling throughout Europe and cold calling and ended up with. Forty four different meetings or interviews not all interviews for specific jobs saying, I'm coming here. We traveled across Europe and set up forty four interviews and had three job offers very fortunate and ended up with selecting the one with Liverpool football club. And we picked up my wife did it sight, unseen and showed up and Liverpool England. And, and it was it was an exciting time, but it was different quite different. What's an example, actually, I would love to know if you're working for a football club in British football club, you must have some crazy stories about attending the games or seeing the games, there's got to be something there. I'm sure of it, David the fans in Liverpool are I mean they're crazy. And I'm saying that as a Pittsburgh Steelers fan. I thought they were the most passionate fans in the world. But you show up in Liverpool and they live and die the football club or Everton football club. But everybody in the city, it's constant and it was really interesting because they were owned by two American owners, Tom Hicks, and George Gillett at the time and the fans were not big fans of the ownership group. They didn't think that they were true to the roots of the club, and there were protests and everything. So I came into this role and it's great because you're with a big football club that everybody wants to talk about it. You get treated very well, but you also had to keep a very low price. File because they thought that I was the nephew of the owner or somehow related to the ownership, and you're in this great city and this passionate city, and it was really exciting but you also had to play a low profile or else it could get ugly. I can just imagine you and your wife like putting on a baseball cap and sunglasses just to go out grocery shopping, like I hope no one spots me, did you pick up a British accent while you just try to pretend you weren't Americans. I don't think Scouser Liverpool accent is quite, British quite different. And some fortunately, I did not pick up that accent. It's a foreign language, so okay. So you were there we made it across the pond. You had some interesting experiences while you were there. Great time. But also a little nervous to go out in public. And then what happened that you now landed in Switzerland, I was hired there, specifically at a naming rights for stadiums and arenas background, and I was hired to build out the commercial or sponsorship structure around the new stadium. That was supposed to be built this was in two thousand eight nine ten, and there was a shovel in the ground to start building a new stadium but then the financial crisis hit and everything changed in that stadium. Never got built. So I had a wonderful experience. It was a great entree into global sports into football soccer, and it was a great door opener. Because at Liverpool everybody wants to talk about football. Everybody wants to talk about the club and so you're open, and you're meeting everybody from agencies to brand to meteorites holders. And so it's an incredible door opener at Liverpool with a wonderful. Experience, but the commercial structure around. It wasn't built without a stadium. It wasn't developing and I had done a partnership with my current company in front sports in media, while I was at Liverpool and then some discussion snowballed, and I ended up in Switzerland and so they still you over a little bit. How, how did they will you over or how what made you decide that working at infront was going to be a good fit? Well, it was much more diverse in that you're dealing as an agency, you're dealing with over one hundred different properties and twenty-five different sports in football. You're dealing with one and you live and breathe that. And there's great value to that you drink the Kool aid or. American term. But you, you really live and breathe it, and you get brainwashed into your own little world of football, and that football club, and that's great. And there's a lot of value to that. But then the agency side, you get a much more diverse opportunity, both geographically and across different sports in different business segments. And how you say working international aid you work differently with different cultures as sports, the same across all cultures. Is that like the common language, there are do you have to tailor? When you're in Asia versus when you're in South America sport, is a common language, which is great and allows us to speak that common language, we have a actually a trailer video about why brands should get involved in sponsorship, and we open it with that it breaks religions, and it breaks cultural boundaries and breaks genders and breaks every barrier there is, and it does sometimes it creates it as well. But overall breaks? Barriers, and integrate situation to be in because you can do that. However, dealing with different cultures is, is particularly challenging, I mean, we're a company that has offices in twenty five countries and learning to how to work with each of those different cultures, is challenging and takes a lot of time. Are you brave enough and willing enough to share a faux pas or at time that you did something culturally, insensitive? Are you go? Oh, I wish I hadn't done that. I noted that for next time but you save us having to do it wrong ourselves. Well, don't ask my team because that happens all the time. But hopefully we cover up many of those. I don't think there's been anything that has been to damaging, and you do get training, you know, when we had Chinese training on the proper proper etiquette and the proper things to do. And I've read some of the books I forget that exact title but Balch kiss handshake. Go shake. Yeah. And it's a good book and a great introduction. And it gives you a good overview. I don't think I made any major faux pas. But I'm sure on a regular basis on every meeting basis. I'd do something that is somewhat inappropriate for that culture. But let's say you know, you're offensive they go. Yeah, it's just David being David. And what something like you said, okay, you read these books and they were a great introduction. What's something that goes beyond? You know, we can all read a book or take a class. But then the reality hits that theory versus reality. What are some real life intercultural lessons? You've learned whether it's China or anywhere. I think it's. You can read, but you have to experience. I mean, even when I go back to the states now and you try and explain you can explain it and there's an understanding but not a comprehension and this is an opportunity as well, because if you are living it, and if you can't express that properly to whether it be brands or sports rights holders in different territories, or different countries, if you can get that message across that you do understand, and they have some challenges it's a real business opportunity. I'd say I see a great one with the US in that, yes. There are a lot of different cultures and a lot of different areas of the US, but you're still only dealing with one to two languages. You're only dealing with one set of media and broadcasters. And so marketing is much different. People say, it's much more advanced it's just different. They do go deeper. But what? A lot of times American brands that were working with. They don't understand that in Asia. There's over fifty different languages. Well, how do you market, your brand to fifty different languages? They look at Europe and Asia's kinda one market, but it's not and the education of that and getting that point across is extremely challenging, but also valuable to those brands if you can show them how to do it. So once again, I, I really hear this coming across it's that you're showing value to your customers, and being able to say I'm doing everything I can to be in your shoes, and I'm not just doing generalization. I'm not just saying, oh yeah. I get it. Oh, you have a lot of languages. No. I feel the pain that's associated with it, and because I feel the pain because I understand it and comprehend it. Here are some solutions because I care and because I actually get with the real problem is. And sometimes, it's an education in that they don't even feel the pain because they may not. No. Now, of course, some of the bigger brands, of course they do. They have specialists who understand. But a lot of brands don't just realize that there are fifty languages there, and how do you adapt to that? And what are the best ways to send your brand message across those fifty different languages and hundreds of countries across Asia? So it's not only putting yourself in their shoes, but also trying to educate without necessarily coming across as ostentatious. So. Exactly. Weird. It's not helpful until. So that's a, that's a great question. I'm super curious to know how to you roundabout educate people as it just through a conversation as it just do you have any specific tactics that you use that you could share? I think it's important for FaceTime, you can't get that message across in emails and can't get them across even on phone calls. I'm even a big believer in what's or Skype or FaceTime. Because it helps if you can't be in front of the person, I think seeing seeing somebody face to face and seeing reactions is really really valuable both for your own staff, but also externally. And so I think getting face time is critical because they're not going to understand through presentation, the brand that we are dealing with received literally hundreds, if not thousands of proposals every month on what they can do in sports and entertainment, and you can't get that message across you need to show them your one. Or two pieces of expertise that may separate you and get that message across and FaceTime, is critical said, that's a great tip for how you develop business because you are often developing new business. Do you have any other stories about how you develop business or what's good way? Like how you said, okay we network, I built one or two relationships. How do you develop new businesses? Secret way of, of networking with the people, you want to me, or how do you stand out how do anything that you can share? I'd say that once you do develop into let's say amid or senior level role you wanted us the people that do trust you. And that's a word of mouth and referrals is by far the best. I'm hiring in the US right now. And I put a job description now unlinked in, and I went to my two or three closest context, who do trust me and said, hey, can you post this as well a reference this and say great opportunity with a trusting person and company, and then that spread like wildfire because then instead of just my network. Now I have that three or four or five six times and it's very helpful I'd say leaning on, whether it's business development or sales, or hiring or whatever it may be using your trusted network that you have built through the one on one or two onto opportunities is, is the best way to go about that. Particularly as you get more senior in your career. And what I'm noticing about what you're saying is that actually you asked for help, a lot of people feel like oh, I'm at the top. I have to prove myself, I have to do all this stuff on my own. Is that one of your secrets to partnership and success that you're comfortable asking for some help? It's challenging, because you don't always do it to some of the traits that allow you to progress in your career, also become detrimental as you get more senior, and whether your ego or pride get in the way and it does for almost all at some point, it's a balance, and it's a check, and I recently had some of those checks and it's critical that you do have this checkpoints, because it occurs it absolutely a car so you do executive coaching and a lot of the coaching topics are around basically, I love this title from a book. It's what got you here won't get you there. So all the skills all of the traits, all of the qualities that worked in the past and getting you exactly where you needed to be in your career. It will it did work. It was great. It doesn't work here. Exactly. And that's why I specifically pointed out. That's why might years picked up that you. You were asking for help, because I know this particular challenge the higher up, you get. But I appreciate that you have taken that step and saying, okay, it's funny because I just have to add this one note, this is just going into a speech that was writing. So it's top of mind. If you ask someone for a small favor, they actually like you more. So it could also be a great strategic tool for you to use as you're building your partnerships because they feel like they rationalize to themselves. I must really like that person if I just did them as favor. Exactly. And so they actually like you more. If you're looking to build a relationship one way could be asking for a small paper. Yes. And also than they do come back to you. Sometimes it's not a quid pro quo, especially if it's a deep meaningful relationship is not a quid pro quo. But if you, they feel comfortable asking you for favor, then it just grow again, that relationship grows and grows. So you've just dealt a trusted relationship at a trusted environment that you guys can rely on each other. So let me go to the opposite of that. So when you're in negotiations with many people think of negotiating as a conflict mode, where you're arguing with someone else or you're trying to get something in the other person's trying to get something. Do you have tips on how you handle negotiations? Megotiating is, is a tricky one. I set up a conference internally for our entire sales staff, several years ago with the Schreiner institute, and the guy was a former German police officers slash whatever. The German FBI is, and he would become come in for crisis negotiations. And now he does stuff for the UN and World Health Organization, and he comes in, and again, most of my colleagues on the sports side, where we have at this doesn't really relate to what I do. Well, it does again those principles are exactly the same unique circumstances, but exactly the same and he was really, really entertaining about hostage situations and everything else. And he relating it back to our business for me, as we talked about the cultural is a big big challenge on the negotiations because getting from eight. A B. In, let's say American or British mindset is different from an Indian or Chinese mindset, one is not right. They're just different. And it makes it extremely challenging, and again, I think the fall back on the principles of putting yourself in the other person's shoes. And what are they trying to achieve out of it? There are some other tips, I think, in that the higher up in an organization, you go the fewer justifications you need, you need more storylines. You need a theme. You need a concept that a CEO or CMO can go to the market with and say, this is what we represent. And this is what we do. Whereas if you're dealing with a sponsorship director or somebody on a mid to senior level, they're looking to justify rationally in an ROI perspective on how to do that. And that's fair. That's again, neither one is right? They're all doing their jobs, but you have to keep that in mind when you're talking to the people, the higher up the fewer messages. But the stronger story and the lower in the organization, the more rationalization job justification in our ally. You need it most. People don't differentiate like that within the organization that, you know, the higher up. They are the more strategically that they are thinking or the way that they're thinking about how they. Craft this message to their sake holders. How do you go about building this brand story? But you have to have a story, even from the first one now that story will change as you. Learn more about the different brands that you're dealing with. But you have to go in one of my beliefs, as you go in and shoot. And you might miss the Mark. But if you show creativity and thought that gets you through the door to then craft that message I'd say too many people nowadays, come in and say, oh to whiteboard, and they put the onus on the person that you're pitching to, to come up with the story and come up with the solution. Yes, it is a whiteboard. You know that they know that, but come in with the solution come up with a proposal and again, most of the time, you will miss the Mark because you don't know exactly what that organization specifically want wants to achieve. But if you miss you show the creativity, and then they trust you a little more and you just dovetail into another story. So I like that because you're, you're talking about being proactive and again always giving to the clients. So you're not just showing up and saying, all right. How can I help you? But you're saying I've really thought about this. I care. I've put effort in work. Going to be creative about it. I'm always curious behind the scenes how how many interational does it take even if you know it's going to be wrong. How many rations do you guys go through before you'll pitch to a client? And I'm sure varies a little bit. But yes, it's where you are in the process amid on the first one everything on entails in general. You're balancing the dedication of time to customization or tailoring a package. And that's probably one of the biggest challenges are in tire. Salesforce has is what is that ballot? Is it a numbers game or is it really great ideas? And again depending upon what you're offering or what you're pitching it can vary. Sometimes it is a numbers game if you're just looking for brand awareness, if you're looking for signing up people to buy something or just get acquiring names through CRM database, then it has to be more strategic and more detailed so that balance is really, really critical. And. So the first time you give it a go. You show your thoughts and there aren't too many at rations just because you don't have the time. But when you go back, you'd better be prepared. And those interational may be two three four five six different integrations, because you put different eyeballs on it, and, again, you're going to miss the Mark and you never know what the other side of the table. Catch their I have learned that when you're going through a presentation. You think you have the best point that you're making, and then they pick up on one minor thing that you're like, oh, okay? Great. Yeah. That's. I was planning. So sometimes clients see something and just say love that let's go and run with that I'd love to hear a story when a client is not so favorable if you can share. How do you deal with the difficult clients, so you go in you go for a pitch and, you know, it's gonna miss the Mark, but has there ever been a really difficult client, or a story where it wasn't easy to handle? I've never had a difficult client ever. They're all wonderful. I love everything one of you. No, of course, they're all like I said, they're all different and they may be different for objectives of what they wanted to even their business or they may be different, again, culturally getting from a to be. We have different scenarios where some brands are looking for brand awareness. We just recently activated for my parent company, Wanda and his Chinese conglomerate, and they did a partnership with fica and their goal was to bring their brand to the world and just create brand awareness. Whereas in another case worked with Abbott Laboratories to pharmaceutical out of Chicago and they were switching their brand, so they wanted brand awareness, but they were going from a B to B to B to C product, offering and their brand awareness was not just putting their name out there. They chose the world marathon majors, which are the six biggest marathons in the world. And that is not a TV product. That's not a Hugh. Huge visibility product, but they wanted to talk to a specific audience and educate them about what they were bringing to the market. And then they took the principles of marathons and the challenges and of marathons and they brought it into their normal advertising and their traditional advertising. So sometimes you leverage, the sports property to show and reach balls, and then other times, you're taking the principles of what that sport or what those athletes represent and bringing it to your general media advertising. I think what I'm hearing you say, as you have a such a great sort of empathy and understanding for each of your clients, that, even if they're acting difficult or having difficult demands that you're able to shift and flex to meet their needs. And so you don't necessarily see it as difficult. You just see it as they have a different perspective or objective, or point of view, or they're a different culture. Whatever that, they're just it's just different and we'll just flex to me. There needs in whatever way, we can just the key is to make sure you understand what those needs are and not always easy. Doesn't always work, but the focus is to learn their needs and bring this to life. And when you're focused on these clients, it sounds like you really almost get like I don't know, if this is the right word, but for me, it's like emotionally invested, you get to know their company, their brand, what they want what they stand for it. You're trying to really figure out in their shoes. What's going on for them to how do you deal with the disappointment when you don't win Ron tails? You get used to disappointment in most sales usually the success rate in sales for most industries is much lower than you would want. And so you have to get used to the ninety nine phone calls, emails discussions and only having one decent discussion or traction. And so you get used to that now doesn't make complacency. It's almost the reverse of sport in that, if you're an elite athlete. You remember the losses. You remember the time that you didn't hit the winning shot or you came in second by one second or half a second. You remember those and those are devastating because you're used to success and sales. I think it's the opposite. You're used to failure and the power of the successes. You have is so exciting and so rewarding that it's just shifts over, and it's different and you have to live off of those successes. Again, most industry some industries, you have great success. But in what we do. It's ninety nine percent failing and the successes have great power and influence and reward that you have to live off of those, I love this mindset where you're like I'm not really focused on the failures. That's just you know, average run of the mill the name of the game. That's what's going to happen. Right. It's almost I think of like batting averages not like professional baseball players are batting one hundred you know. So you just kind of say, okay, I'm going to get up a minute take swaying. I we have to do all these sports metaphor. I'm gonna take swing. I'm probably going to fail. That's all right. Because I really only need to be great at a few, and those few will be amazing. Right. And but you wanna fail smartly every time so you're failing ninety nine times. Again, it's the balance of time and effort and energy, but every time you do wanna take away something or learning or even just knowledge of why they said. No. And so it's important to take something away, even though you're failing quite often, so failing smart. I like that. And what else do you think besides this mindset of being comfortable with failure? Failing smartly, maybe reflecting on what's going on. What are their skills, would you say someone would need to be successful in sales, or in sports marketing, I'd say, even beyond sports marketing, just in anything I was say that there's two main things at least in my view and driving curiosity for any career curiosity will win out. If you're curious, you'll find your own success. It's not financial all the time. It's not holiday days. It's, it's whatever you make of it. If you're curious about any topic, I think the combination of curiosity and drive, and you'll have success in your career, no matter what, and that's always whenever I talked to universities, or talk to younger people in the industry. Those are the two things, and it's hard because curiosity doesn't come naturally to everybody. But if you find things that curious about dig deeper, curiosity will grow within you. I see curiosity is sort of a bit of an antidote to fear. So if you're afraid, you don't want to explore, you don't wanna see what's out there. You don't wanna know you just wanna stay safe. And so if you can be open and brave, and curious and courageous, and you're driven to really succeed. So what you're curious about your really learning taking to heart implementing moving forward. I can see where that's really the key advice to in any field to moving forward in their career. So fear works for inaction, not action. And I always tell my girls and young boy, fears the shouldn't have fear and fierce dangerous. But what I mean by fear works for inaction is when you're working with people, and you put fear in them, all it does, is make them go into a shell and not do more. So you can't put fear into your employees. It only works to give them bravery and the ability to come out of their shell. Fears the one of the worst things in in business. Absolutely. And it's funny, I sort of say a couple of things about fear to my girls as well. I first of all, I tell my five year olds choice as to call on her courage. So said, even though if you feel fear, that's okay, call on your courage, and let's move forward. But I make a distinction. There are two different kinds of fear. There's physical fear which, you know, if you're going to jump off a cliff, you should be scared. But then there's the psychological fear. And I think that's what you're talking about is the psychological fear weather. It's imposed by or management or a team member or it's just by yourself, or I'm just afraid to fail or I'm going to look stupid when I give this presentation or I don't want to call because I don't wanna get rejected. That's the fear that really hold you back from action, and it certainly the opposite of curiosity and drive, which is what's going to get you to move forward in your career. The feeling of fear can be good and push you. But if you let it overtake you, it's bad. And it's the wise, Bruce Springsteen once said. Fear is a dangerous thing in one of his songs, and it is yes. Well, you know, I have to say the C you because this is what US Olympia NHS us. They don't say if you ask them, but for the Olympics or you nervous or I'm not nervous. I'm excited, so they take those fierce signals in their body, but this negative emotion, and they reinterpret them in this new way, and they're like, I'm not nervous. I'm excited. I'm not afraid I'm motivated, right? So you can reframe a little bit of your fear and use it as a motivator. Let me ask you this. What, what would you say in summary is your number one piece of advice for listeners for how they can level up their leadership smile? I do. You're doing it. You're doing it helps you and helps the people around you and I mean it's a simple thing. But I actually even before presentations or going into something, you know, I'll put on a song that makes me smile or I'll think of something that makes me smile because it does change you know, it's proven endorphins. Go to your head and it changes you so smile. It's pretty simple. I like that. And you know it also in terms of you talking about building relationships smiling also creates a bit of a connection. So that's a nice one. I'm gonna walk around smiling all day. People might be like, why she grinning, like an idiot, but I'm going to say I'm taking David's advice. You do anyway. Yeah. I'm a natural smiler people who listened to the podcast regularly always hear me laughing, while my guests are talking. It's probably overpowering. So let me like we've talked about so many different topics. They've really feel like I've picked your brain. Is there anything that I haven't asked you, though, that you'd like to share with listeners? I have too many. No. Again, if I if I talked to a class, I bring I have a last slide of just things that whether it's life or career whatever, and that they're simple. But I'll share a few. You can edit it out if you don't like them. When you travel bring a safety pin, the always have a safety pin on you put a pair of scissors next to your kitchen sink. You use them all the time, WD forty and superglue or your friends. Scenario. Take time to do basic skills that, you know, you're going to do through the rest of your life. And those aren't necessarily what you would think go watch YouTube video on how to search the internet, you do it, every time every day, probably five to ten times a day, take a half an hour to figure out how to do it efficiently. That's going to save you a ton of time. I just I have to give you a side now. I just taught someone when they're searching they could do a minus sign. You know they're millennial. I mean it's not like you know, someone who didn't grow up with the internet, and I said, so now I'm going to say you know, take thirty minutes. It would save you how many years over here. I don't do all these learn to speed read that's valuable I haven't, I can't call myself a speed reader, but I know how to skim. Well, it's easy. Go look online Tim Ferriss has a class on it. Learn how to travel Tepelea. You're going to travel in life. Learn how to do it officially and cheaply learn how to take pictures don't always take pictures from so far away. And I know one of your pet peeves don't send somebody a thousand pictures. Send them the ones that are relevant to them that look nice. Don't make them go through all of them. I helped my mother-in-law's lesson. I know. Low blow. Don't select a career that you're passionate about select a career that allows you to do your passions. So if you want free time, if you love golf, you don't have to have a career in golf, but do a career that allows you to golf, or travel, or cook, or whatever it is read, read, read or nowadays, listen, listen, listen to Lisa's podcast. But I think that is what I tell everybody in industry, what by the time after three or four years in industry, I felt like I knew everybody in industry, even if they didn't know me which they didn't I felt like I knew everybody because I saw the quote until I saw the stories about them, I think reading is critical. And there's plenty more. But I'll stop there. These are all great pieces of advice. And I want to add one less thing about reading, which is so many people are looking today for this edge this performance edge. How am I better that, you know, or how do I steer clear as the machines are coming and artificial intelligence comes and creativity and innovation are tops on everyone's less one of the skills of the future. What do I need to succeed in my job? And people are very surprised when I say innovation and creativity and new ideas, they come from having this background from lots of different places and reading is the fastest cheapest easiest way to have a ton of various experiences, which you can then later connect together to come up with this, quote, unquote innovation, but you have to have seen travel is a great one to do as well. When you experience something new your brain can connect it back to something old. That's been there. So maybe you go to travel some. Or you've read this new book, and now you save him. How does that change the way? I've been doing my job now and you can bring innovation in simply through new experiences new ideas at one more than. No, it's why Michael Jordan was so great is every off-season. He picked up one new specialty whether it was a turnaround jump shot the next year. It was the three point shot the next year. It was a defensive strategy. Well, same thing again. If you're playing the, the long play of your career of whether it's thirty years or sixty years or eighty years pick up something new every year. Learn something new kind of make it a goal of yours. Each year to pick up one more skill set that just adds to your repertoire, and then who knows where your career goes anti ties back to something you said earlier, which is your infant along. How along hall have some patients? You don't need every skill now or tomorrow, pick one skill learn it do it. Right. And then pick up a new scale learn do it. Right. Because over the long haul, you're not burnt out. You actually know how to do things and you've acquired this massive skill set and easy and can be fun amazing. Thanks so much, David for joining me here. Today. Thank you. It's been fun. Thanks for listening to another episode of level up your leadership. If you're interested in learning more about today's guests and the topics we've discussed check out the show notes, and WWW dot Lisa. Kristen dot com slash podcast. If you enjoyed the podcast, please go to tunes to subscribe while you're there. It'd be great, if you could rate and review the show, and if you really like the show, I would appreciate it. If you shared the word on social media, as always thanks again for listening.