111 - Masters of Kink
Awaken fauria c._b._d. Arousal oil is a luxurious new way to enhance sensations of arousal and melt into deeper more accessible orgasms promoting natural lubrication and release of physical tension awaken creates the relaxation and enjoyment necessary for central experience release and restorative rest for fifteen percent off awakened or any other products offered by fauria go to four wellness dot com and enter promo code. Turn me john hello baby <music>. Hello hello ragtime. Girl is is it. Hello my baby hello darling. I think what is a rag town on. Girl is a town ragtime ragtime yeah. I think it's a ragtime dance ragtime girl. It's a waltz. It's a it's a waltzing ulsan girl. Ooh hello moe. Hello my baby. Hello my honey. I i guess hello my ragtime summertime gal. Send me a kiss by a wire baby. My heart's on fire do you think do you think that maybe people wet like here and stuff like that back. In the day. Well i mean it was sung by this frog so oh wait hold on michigan j frog in hello my be my baby. Let's let's go through these lyrics era plant <hes> <hes> you know what i bet you a hundred dollars that this is a public within the public domain now what's his name. <hes> michigan j a frog michigan j frog how much you know it's a tin pan alley song written in eighteen ninety nine eight t gene ninety nine. This is in the public domain for sure played played this frog now barack on oh baby my heart's on then you'll be left alone no baby. I promise okay okay now. Do you think do you think like singing that to you know some gal. You're courting <hes> just like make it like now back in the day that that was like oh. I don't think that was ever charming her luminary. Why do they always sing like a frog. Now only be held on medallion yellow red sun. That sounds great. It hurts my fucking through. Shouldn't it sounds like it should be should be protecting your throat all right so that was eighteen ninety nine ninety nine. Let's let's fast forward now to <hes> to <hes>. Let's see what year was this nineteen ninety nine. Maybe two maybe two thousand yeah so a little bit of a different song but it within the same within the same kind of <hes> sentiment intimate so this is actually this song i heard when i was a when i was a montreal back in ireland drinks and were eating at this restaurant and they were only playing music videos and this came on and i was like why didn't we make this fucking intro music to the show ready yeah it also broad finger and pushing it take away from home and and they hey how come on chris my body. You know what that's called easy. Termi termi called termi on what a fucking missed opportunity that was you know what his name is. This made me laugh really hard. We were going through these videos and we're like all right. We'd see videos has and songs that we've heard a thousand million times over and the game was name who saw it and i was like. I don't know you know it's not shaggy shaggy. I used way to like way more on the reggae side of things. It's not <hes> it's not like. I couldn't put my finger on it. Do you know whose name this is now. It's it is it's like the nerdy is name now kevin little yeah kevin little kevin little. I liked that and unfortunately fortunately for kevin little. This is the only song that took off but <hes> but hey man it's quite catchy. Here's a fucking catch you on today. Hopefully we don't get sued for playing that on the on the show mind baby it's been so long really has holy smoke. Sometimes it just feels like we i don't even we're just two ships passing in the night. Sometimes it feels like especially the summer had a really sad room about you last night. Oh do tell he died. Oh yeah lincoln but like in the normal way that we're all expecting or know something totally unexpected. Did you witness it. Now i didn't asset you're just suddenly gone. No it was really sad. I was really sad all morning about it. Really one of those dreams ones that lasts it lasts a long longtime. We'll babe. I'm here so good to see. I'm here. It's so good to see you here on the on the show i mean we we literally haven't really seen each other much. <hes> because i was away i was doing a whole bunch of different festivals and doing that whole thing and then <hes> you were. I've been back and forth so much and i. I just think that summer's summer's are tough to schedule. They're very brief and they're jam packed and it's like summers like extended christmas. I feel like december sucks because like december. It's all about christmas christmas parties everywhere and then his new year's answer birthday. Oh my god it's overwhelming summers like that but drawn out yeah feels the same way it started slow but then bang bang bang has gone over sh sh- sarah's almost over no. It's not <hes> go ahead. No i'd had nothing to say. I was just going to that was that's. That's the that's universal signed for. Let's change the subject but yeah catching up on on turkey on stuff has been been really fun to do today. Yes it has been fun. I mean maybe we can make like a little unofficial official announcement but while we were much while you and i were montreal we went to just for laughs and we did a live recording there which hasn't come out yet but i can't wait worth come out. There was so the first time we ever did a solo to host episode for for a live show and it went very well <hes> but i guess it went so well that just for laughs was <hes> stoked enough to who invite us to perform another live show at just for laughs in toronto jeff l. forty two. That's really exciting. I know so we don't have an official date yet but it'll be the weekend of september twenty seventh right twenty seven twenty eight hundred twenty nine one of those days and so that means we'll be in toronto and we'll be doing a live show show again this time it will be free. I think yeah i think so. We'll get some details on that shit yet which is very exciting and then and then on top of that we got another little show live show coming up <hes> shortly after that shortly after that much over seventh monday night in ottawa at sait no not at all gone college. I always mixes to what's eight sadism calgary sick what he's done a number of shows. They're now all gone on college. We loved our time there last year so we're going to be back there. We're going to be recording <hes> we gotta guests lined up and everything. It's going to be a good time so yeah. Just keep your ears and is peeled and will you know we should do a halifax left. Show should prolly not in september. Maybe october all right well. Let's get to some stuff talk about well. I i know we we picked out a little brain boehner here. Beforehand is kind of a long one one so go right into that. Yeah i think so unless you have anything else to talk about now not really i mean i'm sure some stuff will come up but okay <hes>. I'm trying to think of other. I have anything i think i can say this. I met my boyfriend's entire family this weekend. It was amazing. Oh yeah i was really fun. I don't wanna get into it and it was really really sweet and i think it's nice to get to know the people in the lives of the people that you really care about yeah. It's been a long time coming has so that's nice. It feels nice feels right for you. Okay i want to jump into this brain boehner tobriand variety and jeremy as someone with ninety nine percent conventional friends. I feel i need assistance. Navigating the unconventional my brain boehner is about a recent occurrence in my life. I am qabli exited a six-year open relationship at the start of the year. There were no fireworks leading to the end just more of a deceleration ration- of our relationship into something akin to flatmates that shared a bed. We stayed very close but i moved out four months ago. This week was a significant birthday of his as for the first time i felt deep sadness when he told me he was going to a family party with his new girlfriend he and she were casually dating whilst we were still together she even stayed over over after we officially ended things but whilst we still live together i felt we always got on the hardest part of leaving was to not be a part of his family but i was assured that i would still always be a part of his family and his life so it felt like it was a real kick in the teeth when he told me he and his new girlfriend were headed to a party his grandparents were throwing it hadn't occurred to him to invite me and it was the first time i realized that despite what he had said the truth is we aren't really family anymore. In the way everyone else senator stands. He said i should come along to a dinner on his actual birthday with just coast family and a couple of friends in the new girlfriend instead. I felt like i was gatecrashing as i was only we asked after i brought up feeling hurt that i couldn't celebrate with him. I wasn't looking for an invite. I might add. I didn't know there were any more birthday. Celebrations planned at this point but he assured showed me. This wasn't the case. He said his dad had told him. He thought it wasn't quite right. It was just meant to be family but he assured me everyone else was really supportive and excited to see me that our relationship was open never shared so from a conventional standpoint. I suspect that it is hard for anyone to get their head around. It started off mostly well. If it's a little awkward on his dad's side and that was the only weirdness i expected halfway through the meal. I suspected all was not well after my ex and his new girlfriend went for a long long long conversation halfway through dinner but honestly didn't think it was to do with me. His family are intense. I noticed throughout the meal. She was getting more agitated but having been in her position position as the new girl amongst the clan. I knew it was hard to settle into. She and i ended up in the bathroom together. Shortly after and i said as much that is family are crazy but she said no his family weren't intense and actually it was me that was the problem. She didn't understand why i would be invited. Along to a family event there was nothing rude said just said she didn't get it and was obviously upset and unsettled. It turned out. I was the problem all along. I excuse myself from the rest of the dinner. As quickly as i could and told my exit i would stay away from another birthday party. He was having with friends at his house the next night so i didn't cause any more issues now i feel stuck. He's my best friend for six years. He was akin kintu. My only friend and i want him in my life and i don't know how to be close to him. Without being somewhat intimate for now will always toe the line between friendship and something thing more even if there is no longer any physical attraction either way. We are just good friends and i said so much. He is the barriers head in the sand type so oh if there's if there's anything sensible i can do to help the new girlfriend see i am not a threat or is it a lost cause. I suppose the ultimate question is how can you stay friends with an axe ex when they get into a new relationship when your relationships are not conventional from anonymous blue. That's a that's a lot <hes>. I remember this brings me back. When i read that too this one night in montreal after i had broken up with a boyfriend and i had been in that relationship for about six years and i was on the phone with my step mom asking her for advice because i had some sort of an acquaintanceship with his family and i was really really like wanting to see how they were. I was really like curious about how they were doing and excetera and my ex boyfriend was is not open to that at all. He seemed really offended by it. So i called my mother for advice and she was like she her advice which just really stuck with me and i i don't agree with everything she's ever taught me but was give give that person's their their their space like that's their family the and in this time it's like it's kind of not about you. Yeah i mean i think it's kind of similar to one of those the things that we've touched on this this question before where people write in and they ask you know. How do i get over someone. I'm i broke up with that. I'm still in love with or how do i. How do i continue to be friends with someone like you know we've kind of touched on those those topics before and it feels like every tom redo the the the the piece that continuously comes up is like it might just take some time like time seems to we all all in those types of scenarios but in terms of lake specifically speaking to the new partner <hes> <hes> and how the new partner is is not feeling comfortable with like this friendship existing <hes>. I've found that like you. You're we're really good at this terror. Your sister's really good at this but like and i've i've been in a similar situation where i've had to kind of had to figure out how to deal with with that serve scenario but i find like taking one on one time with the person who might be feeling insecure without your their respective partner being there so in this is case the new girlfriend and anonymous going for coffee or going out for a drink and like spending an evening together and just maybe not even talking about this shit but just enjoying each other's company and with the with the purpose of like showing in good faith to this person that look i'm not. I'm not a threat. There's nothing for you to worry about and like i value do you as a human and i respect your boundaries and because i think that does go a long way. <hes> i sure it don't try to do it out of like a family function. Maybe maybe just like figure out a way to do that. You know on your own time somewhere else but there were she did kind of allude to there being some intimacy than yeah. Why think intimacy <music>. My guests in in that case is like it's a i don't know if it's a there's no physical attraction there so i'm assuming physical intimacy. It's just a closeness that comes from having been and if that's the case yes that's the case then i think like by all means just communicate make sure that that is communicated or or at least you feel as being felt by the by the other partner yeah you wanna be a safe person and ooh integrity yes in the situations for sure because the other thing is like with your with with anonymous ex-boyfriend <hes> if if he's if he is like the stick your head in the sand type of person <hes> there's it's really all that he can do is is be in the middle of it and try to communicate to all parties how he feels about it all right but i think like more of the work cast to come from the person who's not feeling comfortable and the person who wants to be within the picture in some way like i think like using using him as the as the messenger or the middleman cut that shit out like that's not going to that won't fly because you don't know what he's going to be relaying in terms of. Have you know the whole picture we've run into that with questions of of polly emery setups where it's like. There's a girlfriend. The other significant for your partner is like trying to talk to her through through the partner in the middle. It's just like a just a total mess. Yeah i know i think those excellent point <hes> and jeremy. I think you're i think you're spot on. I agree with you. There is something to i think just just demystifying vying the other person you know like if the two of you can sit down and have just like a a hang out just the two of you i think like sometimes people were that that that we feel insecure around like new new partners or ex girlfriends or whatever ex partners is like they're they. They don't they're not a real person. They're like mystifying. You know surreal otherworldly entity. You know that that that maybe maybe just it helps to hang out and and demystify that person and be like oh. You're just a re that they immediately become less threatening when you realize they're human and what's really funny is like when you're on the other end of that like you can see it. <hes> you know. Have you ever been in that scenario. Where like you know someone feels insecure about you or or whatever and then you take that time to hang out with them and then you can see them like unpacking everything right there in front of you and then you know our europe yeah totally i have have been. It's funny how you can be so aware of like because i've been in that scenario. Choose i've been in. I've been in in her shoes. You know the new partner. I've i've been there but again. It just takes a little bit of an and again when i find when i am in that same situation more often than not i try to put myself often the scenario where i go okay figure this out. Do is the reason for you to be insecure or are you just making that shit up. Yeah get in here and have a conversation with this guy. I have a conversation with this girl. Have the conversation with this person yeah and often if you can do that well. It's it's nice when that when you are this is totally departing from europe komo and we're talking to whoever forget anonymous i'm tired but if you are feeling if if someone is may someone's not making you feel insecure but if there's if there's a person around whom you feel insecure the most bold thing the most like the thing that can make that disappear quick more quickly than anything i've ever tried is going up starting a conversation with that person <music> being super humble and vary like i've heard such great things about you really curious about what you're up to and i just wanted to say hi mm-hmm introduce myself because as soon as you do that you'd step into confidence and like just own them you are the do you have the upper hand right. You are now more and better than i know but you know what i mean right. Let's say it's all about games is all about winning. God well. Well hope that helps it's noninvasive and whoever else is out there listening to this end securities. You're reading something. I wanna talk about that. The excuse me keep burping microphone. It was a it was some like some stats that trojans doing oh about masturbation so on here but i want to go through that again because he read it to me earlier and i was like <hes> what what was okay. It's a bit <hes> <hes>. I mean just a little heads up like we right now. Were in the were in the talks of like putting together a little a little <hes> partnership sort of episode with trojan. They've been putting in like a ton of money into <hes> well obviously like advertising but also campaign into research into sexual health for for not youth but like what would you call like university students well so this is a trojan recently conducted a new study with sex information and education council of canada which is a body. I didn't even know existed so s. i. e. c. We see a n c. Can the sex information and education council of canada is a not for profit charitable organization <hes> established in nineteen sixty four that works with health professionals educators community organizations governments and corporate partners to promote sexual and reproductive proactiv health so yeah so big study was just on with about fifteen hundred university students and yes so this email got sent to us says new study reveals masturbation is enjoyed more by women than men interesting so it's in the way these things are recorded there. You kinda takes them to wrap your head around them. So women are okay. Although men masturbate more often women are more likely to report that the last time they masturbated it was very pleasurable so does that mean and then that the people that they're interviewing. They asked you know the last time you masturbated. Was it very pleasurable there was there were orlando and more men that were like their third really thirty nine. Percent of women said the last time they masturbated. It was very pleasurable right. Twenty nine percent of men said the last time they masturbated. It was very pleasurable. Wow holy moly yeah yeah twenty nine percent. I'm thinking about the last time i masturbated and would you say it was very pleasurable. No uh-huh no. I can't remember the last time i masturbated whereas like that was very pleasure. Have you ever time macerata. I'm like really had to get it out of me. Wow yeah. I think there's masturbation is <music> all about pleasure. It's never about just like releasing tension for me for me. It's like god has come out very little amount of feeling bloated carol extra liquid yeah but then but then there's the times where like cause like when usually when i masturbate i'm i'm literally like there's no spit just a dry hand yeah quick like web of the porn real quick but then sometimes sometimes sometimes sometimes i'll be like in bed and i'll be like gonna use the go. I'm willing to use some lube lube like a huge like that's a fucking. That's an it's an ordeal and whenever that happens. I'm like it's very pleasurable. I would say very enjoyable roybal okay well. That's good to know i i can't think of i can't think of any anytime that that it's ever been anything but our director of driving a car once and was that very pleasurable. Are you doing it skype. I gotta get to come out. Okay all right so okay. Then this one gets a little more complicated okay forty six percent of women who masturbate sure bait more than once a week reported that the last time was very pleasurable more than once a week okay thirty three percent who masturbate less than once a week report that it's very pleasurable so basically if you if view masturbate more than once a week it's going to be then. It likely will be very pleasurable if you're versus less than once week yeah interesting. That's that surprises me because i would've figured it'd be the ad like the other way round right because there's like save it. Yeah i guess ah is there anything in there that about like guys at masturbate look less or more than once a week. The only stats that were in the email bites probably like how many times a week do you manage just seventy three yeah no there there is <hes> there is more there's more information and this study is going to be published but i i don't wanna get you into it because we're gonna. Actually we're going to do a deeper dive into this information mation in another episode episode for what it's like national sex week ler national sexual health day yeah coming up in the world international international international world the whole world in internationally cool okay well research. Let's start to this week's episode episode. Oh yeah all right sounds good. So this is an episode we also recorded in toronto just sift flying through those dot toronto episodes but with <hes> with our friend kaitlyn who is doing her masters in basically can't kink yeah right it interesting stuff. I mean last week's episode we we talked with a practicing doctor pretty deep news greer this this this week's episode we're talking to an aspiring in dr not yet in her career <hes> but just as fascinating nonetheless so i hope you enjoy this week's episode and and as always we'll be back next week with another one. I don't ever do this no you. Are you never say that. You say we love you all and beyond. We'll see you on the other side. Is that it it's not just protect your teeth but it actually is to protect your jaw yeah. She's your jaw muscles. Get like really tight and they can get to the point where it's actually painful yeah. I don't understand how it works because you think you'd still be able to clench your teeth even if you add something which i think it's just more of a cushion honestly and like definitely to protect attacked kind of your enamel and stuff right. So what does your name will do. Does it like what the fuck is enamel. I have no idea i don't dentist school for. I need to go to a dentist bad. I haven't been in three years. It's bad. I just got got into <hes> definitely haven't been longer than that but it's like at least sad i don't. I just went for the other day to <hes>. She's probably is probably seven years like what else twenty five like when i was able to when i had some sort of coverage it's so absurdly expensive dentistry school like i did a couple of days ago. It was <hes> seventy five bucks or something or for over a stool exam mm-hmm yeah she was a student and she full exam and she told me everything i already knew which was great and yeah she was gonna just basically it's just nice to know at thirty five. I probably haven't been to the dentist either in five years that then i'm doing okay taking care of me. Yeah you make sure the so integral to your health it is it really should be covered. Yeah i think yeah well oh. What do i know you know what here's a. Here's a good little segue. <hes> caitlyn <hes> are we. Can we use your name. Okay great <hes> i mean. I don't see why we wouldn't considering what you're doing your masters i do remember now. Oh you're now you're moving in. Which is why i was gonna. Ask <hes> is there. Are there any kinks that are that <hes> that involve teeth teeth kinks that you've come across in your in your studies. He's like what specifically like. There's activities that involved. I fighting pretty common one. I feel <hes> biting finish or maybe yes sure. Biting fetish might not be but i mean like biting in sexual play yeah so like biting sexual sexual plays definitely a common like an actual binding to the extent where it's like an end unto itself. I haven't encountered that many people personally. I have an invested interest because that's my biden yes. Oh fuck explains your engine that we were speaking about five biting. People people people are putting me okay. Okay okay so yeah yeah. Why why why are people biting. You is the pain <hes> yeah well like. I identify mostly as a masochist so for me. It's just like yeah that rush that endurance that pain tolerance also just like the merck's leaves. I'm kind of into <hes> because it bruce bruce is like a motherfucker <hes> at least the way. I like it yeah so i pretty much covered you like it's kind of i don't know watching that healing process and just realizing for like a couple of weeks. They're like yeah did stuff right and having that kind of reminder minder is i don't know to me i find it sexy i've been asked to bite and <hes> and unlike requested by it harder and harder yeah and and there was one time where i was like if i buy any harder than i am right now. There's no way i'm not going to break through the skin. I was so scared of like going through this game. I i was cool with you. Know sure lift leave. Some deep marks and legs probably gonna be bruising but i was like. I really don't wanna taste your blood well. No it wasn't about it was it was battled. Tastes bekker's blood like whatever that's fine but i didn't wanna like qatar 'cause yeah well. We'll also just like you get into like. Sanitary issues and human saliva disgusted infections and stuff like that you'd have to like. I've never had an instance. It's of having like my skin broken and i've been pretty damn hard. That's what i was taught pretty resilient. There was a voice in the back of my head with that was like you're good. You've got to do it pretty hard. I remember reading that <hes> although we do have the strength and power in our own bodies to bite off our own fingers we won't physically can't physically anti-riot yeah. I think it's the same as like i mean. I don't know how true this is but like you like you. Physically can't just drown ground yourself right. I mean you couldn't hold your head underwater. Your body just goes. I yeah you'd be like <hes> okay well anyway anyway. You are doing your p._h._d. Masters i'm not i'm in the in the fall application process for okay okay in kink basically okay yeah you live for us. Rule don't want my thesis pitch yeah so mike thesis basically centers law around the question of should kink or beatty some practitioners kind of be under the umbrella of sexual orientation <hes> and a lot of that. I like legally. There's a lot of impetus for that because people don't a lot of people don't know this but there have been various instances with child custody job bob security and so forth of people who are out to partake in bedia seven they fired and they have no legal protections all so that's definitely one impetus for it but also for myself like i find it kind of our current definitions of sexual orientation are pretty narrow in in my opinion because what do you guys think when you think sexual orientation in the what the definition is <hes> the like the the gender with which you <hes> <hes> are attracted to gay street so most is pretty filter down to just gender which i think it needs an update because it's neither the word sexual orientation actually dictate the gender that you're attracted to <hes> so one of the things scholars who i really like charles moser focuses says on kind of orientation be a little more multifaceted including things like interest so what kind of sex or sexual activity or are people. You were interested in identity how you identify yourself and your actual behavior so what you actually do interesting. This is really trippie because like literally ten minutes before you walked in. We finished a recording with <hes> dr james cantor. Who's a doctor dr from from here in toronto. He's currently a sex therapist but he did <hes> a a very large amount of his work. The dedicated to parents feel is in particular <hes> in particular pedophilia and and basically like thank you know doing a deep dive into what where does pedophilia come from his pedophilia. You know brain scans of of people who are <hes> and i think in that conversation specifically we were. We like kind of touched on. I think i asked i was like i think is kate considered <hes> <hes> an orientation or is it or is it or is it or is it just based from past experience and cantor's answer was like we don't really know no but it is like i actually checked recently just <hes> because i know the d._s._m. Five so the diagnostic psych daniel annual thing which was has been updated like it's still has like sadism and masochism and various other fetishes under a para phileas like the only real distinction is beforehand. It's just in and of itself is is considered a psychological disorder just for existing whereas now oh. It's like if you're happy about it and it's causing you to stress. It's fine but it's causing you distressed then. It's a problem so it's still technically there road which i think you could argue that with a lot of stigma and face like that it would be causing you distress right yeah right with stigma but like we wouldn't you also argue that like it. It could also be <hes> causing you distress if it if it's if it's if the scales tip a little too far you know if you take it a little too like for example. I'm thinking of like this is a bad example. I mean enough. I should bring this up because it's so fucked faulk but albert fish yeah like sticking needles in your taint and then using them in your body and then being like you know like that. Maybe that's not okay. Maybe yeah yeah so. It's like drawing the line between what is like too much right. I think is something that definitely it's worth considering right right. Obviously that's an extreme and awful example. That is a very very very terrible. Example will do and also if you don't know albert fish. Don't just don't don't do y- i <hes> i don't know if i would be interpreting. What james kantor said read accurately <hes> when i suggest this but what i thought i heard him say was that <hes> so so things like pedophilia things like homosexuality there. The studies are showing brains are showing that these things are you are developing albin utero is it's not as perhaps we all once thought like something happened to you. It's environment. It's a circumstance. It's like like an incident or whatever and what. I thought he was saying to you about <hes> was that to a degree he he doesn't know this for sure but to degree. He suspects that studies would show that be d._s._m. Would show up on brain scans as against something thing that is a similar like built men however the when we go to the extreme ends of things he he suspected that there there there might like in addition to that be environmental <hes> factors that increase the intensity of off you know beyond like rough sex or beyond like <hes> what was the other example used or he was talking about like really extreme breath play uh-huh brow yeah so at least that's kind of what i heard was like two degree reborn with our orientation our interests yeah or or whatever and then and then but in with extremes of things through that that might it might be compelled by <hes> in saving incidents day exactly yeah well. That's why foul with a lot of my because i did interviews for my thesis project and definitely one thing i found a super interesting. Is that a lot. A lot of people were very aware of their kings and their interest in even before they knew what genders they attracted to like. I had several participants who is like and it sounds like at five that i was in the being spanked or like they would not necessarily have a context or a word for it. They just knew they'd have an interest in certain things well. We hear that from people who like oh i got suddenly aroused by batman tying up robin things like that and like the more they cite site various tax or forms of media. It's just it can kinda be found everywhere pretty much interesting yeah. So what is what. What is some of the stuff that you've you've learned in through doing the work that you're doing right now. That's that's kinda surprised. You're shocked you. I think definitely that's one of them. <hes> how like i inadvertently tapped into like the spanking community 'cause they interviewed two participants who the idea of how they call themselves spank owes go term yeah and you know they have conventions and so even an entire kind of community and they would all say that they would cite like the same kind of forms of media like that one little house on the prairie book or something like that i knew new and seven that's one thing i'm definitely going to delve into further for a book chapter because to me that's fascinating. That's they have almost cannon for their kink right right. Yeah very that's really interesting yeah and these these like these pieces of of pop culture or whatever like they tend to be. There's a pattern they they tend to be the similar yeah yeah so participants were saying that they talk to people like all like online message boards all across north america and they'd all site the same one right so it's kind of i missed out. I always thought little hustle and prairie was so boring. I should have should have done some good quality spanking content. Oh that's really funny. <hes> what <hes> you know. You were saying earlier that you you you have <hes> you have your own kinks. You're on your own play that you're you're into what what what like give us a little bit of background like how how does one end up doing a thesis on on something so specific as kink <hes>. We'll put you into this world. What oh man my origin story. That's like my questions to my participants. I think for me like i always had i. I was definitely that like weird kid at like age eleven and twelve who was like obsessed with sex like pretty much the minute i hit puberty i was like the hornets kid and existence silence right in what what what degree like like hump on the couch and and like like you know touching yourself any moment you could you could find privacy chang for nerdy like i was made to sex researcher because like from age twelve or thirteen on thankfully my parents were pretty open about it and they were cool the but i just be like getting them to buy me books and books from the library and stuff like that. I was just like i started craving knowledge. I wanted to know more. I want us to know more definitely definitely the like. I went to catholic school so that probably contributed to the kinks into lhasa. Nothing like some good old repression yeah. Obviously what kind of books are we talking like. I mean you know brady. I know that you were reading <hes>. What's up like garden in the wind or whatever the fucking flowers in the attic yeah. That's flowers. Let me ask you the wind good. Try <hes> flowers in the attic. <hes> you know you're reading this sort of you've like sexy almost borderline like erotic literature but for pre teens oh well i would not call flowers in the attic fourteen but somehow ended up in the hands of many many many teenagers <hes>. It's like it's v. C. andrews news and v._c._e. Andrews rights while i can't i can't really speak to to what else they right but <hes> flowers in the attic. It's like highly it's highly incestuous story and i and but here's the thing i wanted to bring this up a james skinner but i'm just gonna bring it up now. I didn't bring it up because i don't really know how to pronounce this author's name. I want to say a nice nice man. Oh yeah yeah is rated pronounce it. Can you youtube how to pronounce a nice man. <hes> i mean. It looks like that's eight pronounced by reading it on. I i am as knin i want. I want you to tell me how to pronounce it but anyway i picked up a book of <hes> by that author and i can't remember what it's called fuck can you what's the name of venus <hes> no not. I think that's a play <hes> hang on. I gotta go look it up. I need to know for context. I look what is it nike's the nice in <hes> venus. What's it called. I got you you keep talking about you. I picked up a book delta of venus venus insa. It's it's like i think it's one story but every chapter is its own erotic story and but i remember i was reading it to you and i was like wow this is a conversation about this story is like definitely about having sex with tildren you know and it's like but do you know this. You know the background of this <hes>. I've i've i read. I looked it up but i don't really interesting delta venus's book fifteen short stories by a nice neiman published post humid humus humus posthumously in nineteen seventy any seven though largely written in the nineteen forties as erotica for a private collectors yeah so she it they had a correspondent so he paid her to write erotic <hes> stories and send them to him and that's what this book is a compilation of and and it's it's it's it's fantasy and as we talked about james kim charts like fantasy does not mean you're gonna go out and do it. You know in real life yeah yeah but i hesitate so one of our patriotic levels. If you subscribe to our bedroom is i i i read a like a neurotic story or roddick poem or something like that and send you a recording of that and i wanted to read the stories of this and i started reading them. I was like i don't know what the response will be to sharing stories like this however super valuable i think in terms of like what what is what is rodham what is erotica it. Is it hurting someone one if i write this if if i read the story if i write the story that includes like sex with underage girls or boys or or rape or you you know whatever the the fantasy is anyway so i'm still not i'm not. I'm still trying to take this book back out of the library because i've decided that i am going to read them and i am going to record m._p. You absolutely should for our patriot listeners. It's like this is historical. It's historical erotica and i just i just love that so i. I can't remember where i was going with. This where we were going with us to title back was you were saying you were you were taking a lot of books and i was saying was in the wind gardens and so are you talking more about like you know. Scientific yeah backed yeah like more to me like things from like sue joe hansen n. like those kind of things. We're like kind of my launch pad at an yeah blab to you know my other twelve year old friends and they're just kinda got to the point because you know kids sock. Were there like you need to tone it down basically throat high school attorney to be a little bit more reserved and stuff like that and then obviously you get to university and i'm like people pretty much well. I know one twenty two twenty six right now and when i was twenty two there was i was in t._v. Class journalism and we are trying a couple of story ideas and i like pushed my group. I'm like we should do think kink week guys because it's important that we should cover this can create yeah so so they had like a local people from a local sex shaw for king shop kind of come in and do like to toils and stuff like that. I just remember my mind just being blown and i went home and i was like <hes> <hes> things like percolating. I was like this makes sense <hes> and then like within that year or had one of my first lake official play partners and stuff like that. She actually was running the workshop. That was just like well. She cute and i just remember the first night like the morning after when i woke up after we just like you know played and stuff like that so done some like impact play and stuff. I just remember waking up being like i feel like a new woman. <hes> well more realize yeah more realized and it wasn't until i was like towards the end of my bachelor's degree not really sure what i wanted to do and it was in journalism and elizabeth and journalism key right now. It's kind of a trash fire so awful lot do that. <hes> and then my minor was in women's and gender studies and we just got a new joint chair and i realized like her background was with legal intersections and lake king and like a light bulb went off in my head and like you can study tidy this what yep so talking to her and like it had held at the department our emailed me being like. Do you want to do a master's. We'll we'll give you money yeah and here we are turn me on. We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors. Hey friends. Let me tell you about the newest addition to my intimate sexy time hours. Awaken is an all-natural arousal oil the four area from its design to the sensations it provides this product feels like it was made for a goddess. I've used it as a massage. Dodge oil for erotic play sessions with partners and as a stimulant for natural lubrication and the formula of botanical they use the so thoughtfully crafted crafted this oil relaxes tension where ever you apply it and intensifies. The sensations of orgasms is great for deepening intimacy with your partner or your sexy alone time bringing your body to a state of rest where you can tune into pleasurable sensations nations more fully. I'm a huge fan and i think you should add it to your collection like i said all their formulas are based on foundation of c._b._d. Rich sun grown hemp emp and our thoughtfully crafted with other organic botanical chosen for their flavor aroma and other medicinal compounds. If feels like magic for you awaken is made of nine plant based aphrodisiacs. You should head on over to four hundred wellness dot com to check out the other products for it has to offer for like a high quality cd vaporizer with a sleek ceramic and glass reusable pen. They also got suppositories for period relief or other types of erotic play as well as tonics for everyday wellness supplementation using organic m._c._a._t. Oil there are so many reasons to head on over to fauria fauria wellness dot com. You'll get fifteen percent off. When you use promo code. Turn me on currently they don't ship to canada portugal spain or militia but fight. Keep your eyes peeled. That's so cool so <hes> do you have like an end goal in mind with all this <hes> i've i've always been kind of very passionate about sex education and kind of just using writing or various other platforms to kind of spread that like i've always been that friend that <hes> people come to kaitlin. Can you help me with this x. problem album and stuff like that they will be like comfortable and open to those kind of things so he definitely want to use it for that more than anything else and i. I love the research aspect of it. Kinda uses combines like my journalistic training with interviews and writing but i can do it and with a little bit more frieda rita and like definitely more long form who who what do you <hes>. Is there like currently. What are you working working on right now. Like how are you. You're working on your thesis. We're like where are you within that process. I've done like all my data collection now. I've just have the uh unfortunate task of writing the whole thing <hes> and kind of doing a little bit more background research in academia. What's called a literature review of basically like the state of the research for that field right now <hes> and i know with king specifically like it's definitely more emerging field. There's a law like interestingly interestingly. I didn't realize this until i started pursuing it. There is a law of kink research happening in ottawa. Which is where i study really yes. I knew that yeah. I knew that i was stuck in yeah. Kinky has not taught clean and tidy. You know exterior. What was that ashley madison. These yeah that thing that there's just like a high population of people right. There's a bunch of them in auto like like the highest in canada. I think we said that at alive show though in somebody's was fake news so now. I feel like you're right. I haven't done my research fakeness. Whatever yeah your mom's fake news <hes> my favorite is that is that is really interesting though that there's that that because i do i've always i still do. I guess clearly this where where i'm from salt. What i'm gonna say is always taken ottawa's as to be a little bit stuffy like yeah. That's fair. That's it's the it's. It's the the city that hold oliver politicians. You know what i mean so it's like you have to kane clubs. You like to sex like clubs like <hes> kind of like chasis here in toronto. Really what's <hes>. We're coming up to ottawa <hes>. Maybe it hasn't been confirmed. We're looking at the show. I could show you the ropes do you do you attend the clubs like <hes> <hes> so i haven't as of yet i have a friend who runs a there are under thirty five kind of sex parties and king parties and paulie a <music> a things and stuff like that and she's been trying to get me out for like 'cause since december. It's just like the past year has been bananas for maze of had a lot of like family stuff explode by dad pass away in april so that's just unlike really wacky things to my sex drive and just date. It's was that unexpected. No he'd been sick for two years. It just sucked shot about grief and the effect on unsexy sexual. It's really weird and it affects everyone. Ah so different. It's just it's honestly a one. It's been a wild ride because i know one one of my friends <hes>. She lost her mom a couple years ago and she coined the term grief horny and i was like how long were you reporting for so for me. It was like i found the first month and a half afterwards. I was like ravenous just so busy. I didn't have time to like really do anything about but then like once the two month mark i noticed that it was just it just disappeared disappeared and now it's just like i can't man like your libido has kind of sean yeah. It's kinda shot and also i think for me like once the shock wears off off because i my dad was sick for two years and it's just like i tried to date through those two years highlight <hes> one more long-term relationship and stuff like that but like i kept trying to push forward <hes> but then i almost self sabotaging and kind of realizing that i'm like i can't do this. I i'm doing because i feel like i have to <hes> <hes> <hes> but definitely not and then once the shock were often about june and so for those like i been bad mental schaefer folks. Are you investigating that the way with the same leg vigorous your research yeah of course what you can't turn it off. It's actually like psychological as yourself constantly. It's like it's a little annoying income. Sometimes what finding value was like. I was trying so the month after he died because it had been two a years. He died of skin cancer so because it was two years of just awful stuff. This is turning into like a sick boy up so i mean you know what the two mark. Yes very related a lot of ways. They really are though they are. I mean sex death and money is like a whole podcast of its own is like their topics that they they weaved together gather. That is a podcast yeah. Yeah that's right. I wasn't sure if you knew that like if you just said i mean that's a that's a new genius podcast idea yeah yeah what is this. It's called sex death and money <hes>. It's called money sex and death. That's a good one. I think yeah so after the shock wore off because the first month. I'm just like well yeah. I don't have to be stressed about an awful phone call anymore yeah but then it transitioned transition to oh fuck. This is permanent. This sucks ass. We were in a relationship at the time or or seeing anyone. I wasn't <hes> my last relationship was like a little. It's one of those things that's like. We officially were dating for probably four like after the conversation stuff like that for like four months i think like in all honesty is probably closer to eight months to a year. We're still i still love her very much and we're still still in very close contact and are very good friends and stuff like that but i tried half-heartedly this year to kind of enter into the dating rural is just like i was faced face with way more anxiety than i was used to which was kind of like a pushback. We like maybe not is. Is there something thing about dating or getting close to somebody. That's like a trigger for grief. Yeah definitely because it's that i would have to basically re explain everything that any of my people close to me are up to speed on and there's a lot of things i really don't feel like redoing all of that and having to explain myself and like naturally. I'm just like a mistrustful person. I don't know on. I was just born that way interesting yeah. It's like it's not like there's any particularly bad trauma. My family life was always really good and stuff like that. I i second guess the law that's really interesting because i know kink needs. A lot of trust does require quite a bit of trust <hes>. There's an outlet for that. Yeah right hey do you have you run into that in in terms of like <hes> exploring kink in your own in your own life like you know do you do you you are. I mean regardless of who you are. There should always be a very solid amount of communication between yuna partner but also you know sometimes as you can do that with a very brand brand new partner <hes> like are you. Are you more inclined to only start dabbling into your kinks kinks with people who you have a very like a status jobless like deep relationship with not necessarily so i went to conference and martin hoped i also on the day i met them. I was like bite me bitch basically okay it really actually for me. It's more <hes> so i identify as queer slash bisexual so i think the thing definitely one of the things i figured lately <hes> i am a lot more at ease like ed yeah. I'm a little more at ease with women <hes> for you know the patriarchy yes so <hes> but also i've just found like there's a lot of gender differences this again. The researcher in me lake analyzes the fuck out of this of women i in my experience. At least i found cuna kate better. They'll check in a lot more. They won't assume things are okay and they'll kind of be more considerate about safety things. I mean one of my my first major. King partners was female and like she was very good at establishing communication safety and so forth he did things so she kind of set the bar really high ooh good <hes> i found sometimes in my experience man it's like i think a lot of it is product of how we raise men and stuff like that. I don't think it's necessarily surly always their fault in terms of just assuming and like going from zero to one hundred in terms of okay now we can do this where it's like. No you have to check in along the way away and kind of make sure dude in increments so that's definitely one thing i found and like obviously had i don't wanna get into too much like i've had my own experiences experiences anecdotally like with myself and with friends of just like men being shitheads subaru. There's a law that playing in where it's like is this going to be benign okay or is this going to be at worst abusive or at best like an ignorant douchebag right yeah so like definitely i did try a social experience back in february of dating apps and saying what i study mm-hmm and with after four days i can't take this because i can't because people would just like assume that you're some yeah some type of person like because they would immediately dive into like. I need to know what your kids are right now and you need to get to know me. I chris right. You're jumping the gun a lot. It'd be treated like a person for for so knew about talking about our sexual desires and our wants wants and needs and stuff that i think it's like we just don't have a gracefulness with it yellow. It's it's really hard like even myself. I find like their ties. Is i remember years. We're talking a couple of weeks ago. When like you're on a date with someone and like you know there's the sexual tension in the air and stuff like that just kinda stare awkwardly at each other and you're like how do we translate the transition to the fucking and i yeah just it's still like every now and then like this is still awkward goddamn. I i tried something new. I mean speaking but that i tried something new <hes> actually like a couple of nights ago and it worked really well and talk about it well i we were. We were chatting. We're having a great time and <hes> we were. I mean classic like i a we were talking a lot yeah and and we were hanging out for like you know extent extended period of time and then and then i just started like kind of i've i kind of like laughed for a second like suppressants. She's like what and i was like. I just i'm i classic me like like i just talked too much and she was like i. I should have kissed you while back but i just i just can't can't stop talking and she was like well. That's great and we went into it. It was it was like very late in my head when i did the no but yeah yeah it was like i just kind of just and i'm gonna. I'm gonna try that one a little more like maybe maybe evolve it a little more but the look at me just talking away learning so much lapping my lips. My lips lock glimpsed that i'm sure that it was just very specific. There's no one answer no one key now. It's gotta say as <hes> me <hes>. It's a lot easier i think probably for the the feminine in the in the situation ago so let's just get to it. You know it's a little less threatening than masculine going. I want this. You know yes but it's still it's still frightening. Even with a partner like it is a long term partner. It can still be quite frightening to be the one who initiates appreciates yeah. It's it's just it's weird because even in situations where it's like at this conference for example or if like she t- good on her because she turned to me and it was so awful awfully on later and i was like oh we've been flirting because every now and then i'm like notoriously obtuse picking up on it and right right yeah. I mean my one of my friends call. It being flirted on 'cause you don't you can't pick up on it. Just like it's happening at you but you're just sitting there like this might be flirting but i don't know you sir. I was gonna say that that might be that might be that great waited on your end to do it instead of going. We should flu around later. You know if if you've have you checked check xango wait. Am i being flirted on <hes>. You just say you know what i'm i'm horrible. I'm i'm actually i'm actually horrible picking survives. We're we're you flirting with me. I have no idea and then if i was you go oh well then shall we thanks. Hey i find it. A leg prime. I would say pretty heterosexual and i find it really hard to not assume that someone is women are so really really subtle harper and it was at a conference let so sometimes with my leg it depends on who it is but sometimes you know talking about my thesis topic like it's one of those things that's like. I don't want it to always be interpreted of like oh. I'm hitting on. You know it's like i'm just talking about what i do a fact of life but every now and then it can be kind of used for that and this was definitely an instance of that. This podcast is like that too yeah. She was talking about the podcast. I was like i i hope. They don't think that i'm just like using this as a yeah as a case to be like hey like. I'm fucking into sex and that's that's always that's one thing i've definitely noticed noticed about navigating the world like increasingly realizing that this is probably going to be like my life's work and i'm going to have to constantly explain to random people when they ask so what do you do. What do you study because i'm already like noticing. I have that duality when people ask you know what my thesis is of. I sit there and i'm like why do i give the sanitized version or do i say fuck. Fuck it right like instances where it's like a random like an uber driver or someone who have never see again. I usually just be like <hes> sexual orientation discrimination govt and then just leave it up sure or extended family extended family. I'm convinced some of them don't even know what it is. I would have to backtrack and that's just so like it's awkward enough off with my mom. How does your mom feel about it. <hes> she so. She asked me last night and she's like three. Gotta talk about this on this part like back my thesis next question. Oh yeah. I love her but they're still that part of me. That feels like i'm fourteen and she's going to tell me. I can't do things right right well. I realize i haven't grown out of that yeah. We're going to be like well. You can't do that way at twenty. Six and don't live at home can't tell me what to do that that also blue stemmed from catholic school totally catholic guilt totally totally totally and my mom you know mom hard right one of the where you are. What are you doing and make sure you're safe who you with. What are you studying in school. What are you studying at school every now and then. Can you tell me more about your thesis. I'm like i don't want to you know what though she's she's asking. No i know she's probably like probably daughters fucking cool yeah and and i i wanna be. I wish i was as cool and so i yeah i'll tell you that it's hard to not listen this podcast. Though i really don't wanna you know what's really funny we had a we had a a young woman on the show. Oh who came on the show to talk about like her her her kink laker fantasies yeah and her mom is also a fan of the show on on she it was like she don't want to listen to her but we got a before and after email from said mother right right the e mail before was like before. She didn't know that her daughter was coming on the show yet. She was just like my mom last night under the influence of like a gin and tonic nick because i was like oh i'm going awkwardly early downtown. 'cause i'm coming to your live. Show tonight and it's like it's kind of like. Why are you leaving the house at nine a._m. Oddly enough from your mom earlier today but this said mom of this of this other guest row to us afterwards and was like her mind was blown own and she was so proud of her daughter and so like she was grateful for the mom was actually like so. I know it wasn't supposed to listen but i listened to don't oh tell her you're both kind of like well like they're like hints along the way so for my graduation. My mom did the cutest thing ever. She got me. Oh the places you'll go by dr sues and i thought it was just the book wait it gets better and then they open it and notice there's messages written in it from lake elementary school teachers family friends friends like all these lovely messages throughout the book. I started like ugly crying really a locally crying cry right now. Yeah it was super sweet <hes> but then i get to one of my childhood friends michael wrote something like i'm sure you'll do wonderful people. I mean things and my on my mom. Did you read what michael wrote and she's like. I wasn't born yesterday caitlyn. I'm like oh. She knows i'm a slot. You are gonna love tonight. Show yeah i know i i think maybe okay spoilers. Ya <hes> yeah it has to do the book and our guest and a book that they're writing but anyway <hes> <hes> we'll talk about that tonight at the live show which if you're listening to this now over you missed it shame on you. I bet you feel bad. I bet you feel like you missed out. Now that you now you're hearing all of our juicy. Breadcrumbs were dropping. I mean you missed it but we're gonna put it up. Don't feel acceptable fucking fucking idiot. Oh god <hes> so once you get your thesis all written down yeah <hes> what's separate well. How much longer is the process from now until then. How <hes> so i i'm waiting to hear back from this that this fall is going to be super super busy <hes> so i'm like in the process of p._h._d. Applications which are really really really lake involved in lengthly and then also <hes> at least the editor approved my proposal for a chapter kind of on like would us talking about earlier with spanking okay okay. I'm gonna tell also rate that in february okay so what does that. What does that chapter. What's that gonna look like. That's going to be in an anthology so late like in a book like okay. You're going to write a chapter for a different book. This is not a part of it is an offer my thesis published. Can you give us a bit of a kind of a spoiler oiler of what that would look like kind of be focusing on what i was talking about of. How a lot of people in this community had like similar forms of media and so that kinda spurred their idea okay interest so like that's my main focus on kind of delving more into that <hes> spanking is is that considered i'd like a a mild bpm probably depends on how hard like descriptors they would give me of like the first so many of them it was like an end unto itself spank to the point of like tears yeah <hes> which is pretty intense having done it yeah <hes> so i don't know it's like more calm. I would say just judging by the fact that they're able to have like an entire community but i you got to look into this. 'cause i think banking might be something that would be considered a kink to in terms of my sexuality not because it's not something i'm looking for during the act of sex it actually i actually just find it quite calming and quite grounding rounding. That's feeling out of sorts yeah well. That's how a lot of people feel and that's like the other interesting thing they kind of go back and forth on with king being potentially a sexual orientation is there are a lot of practitioners who it's like. It's not necessarily sexual like there's not what we would defined. What most people define as conventional sex usually isn't taking place at all. There's a lot of people who it's like you know they have their kink play partners but they don't have have sex with them. They're not their romantic partners. There you know play partners and what have you and it's like it's an end to itself like there is no genital play or anything to who sola and there's quite a bit of that but then there's others who they want their king partners to be romantic partners as well yeah so there's a whole hoops spectrum this mike so phallic. I know i like it on your face is is what i do. I'm like anytime a guest comes into. Mike sue you need to sit goes to the microphone and i like to just feel it. Gently brushing my nose or my lip good lord. I don't know how many other people had their mouths on this thing but a lot a lot yeah. I'm okay with that. I'm okay with that. It's mike inc. Don't judge me. All all jokes are just hold off <hes> well. I retain career. What are we going now. We talk a lot about kink and and we we have talked a lot about gang. We've talked to a lot of people about that. Particular aspect back gang cow. It's like not necessarily sexual and i'm i'm wondering like what's the future of of kink. Do you think in terms of our overall mental health and wellbeing. I think there is so one of <hes> colleagues is there's more work especially on like the therapeutic aspects of it so that's kind of exciting especially dealing with trauma dealing with chronic back. Pain is a big one. There's a lot of more work on people <hes> like. There's a i can't remember what his name was but there is a book and documentary. I think it was called supermasochist or something like that guy who i think had cystic fibrosis and he would with the artist was he was he a famous artist. I think so <hes> continue and just how he would use like extreme forms of mass because i'm a as a means to kind of deal with chronic pain <hes> and i know there's a lot of research on that so like i'm hoping there's a little bit more on lake therapeutic aspect bob flanagan yep. That's yeah and he was a he. It was a performance artist and writer numbers work on <hes> sado masochism and cystic fibrosis. Yeah he's <hes>. He's a pretty interesting cat. He died ride in ninety six at age ninety three or forty three three ninety three longest living c._f. Patient of all time no at <hes> forty-three yeah. I forgot about bob bob yeah. We're more. He was up to sorry <hes> continued like i'm hoping there's more of that. I think my main thing is just like the ability for it to be a little bit more visible and a little bit lessen the shadows yeah mostly for safety reasons because now with obviously dawn of the internet you know sites like fat life. There's a lot of misconceptions of people who don't really understand it. I think my definitely one concern. I always have is like with safety yeah because a lot of these activities and stuff like that you do need to i've been more versed in that kind of things which is why one of the arguments from <hes> <hes> someone else who studies this has called stacey newmar on basically kink being thought of as serious leisure because you usually have to invest and like it's kind of skill building and stuff like that which i can also kind of see that also being an aspect of it. You don't need to like take classes or get implements to be elizabeth in order to be gay or things like that you kind of just know whereas with king. It's like you usually do with a lot of kind of need a lot lake and that's the other aspect. I don't always like about how can be very commercialized. Yeah 'cause kinks stuff is so expensive <hes> and so are usually a lot of the clubs loves our as well like there's a lot of barriers for people like me who are poor starving student so it's like man i can't afford the like the memberships and so oh fourth or a law and they're usually at least an ottawa enforcing a law. The king clubs are in but fuck where <hes> that's one of the downsides or they're in like the sketchy part of town. Is there any <hes> research or like yeah there. Anybody is there any body of work that references weather like what what the king communities are like outside of like the middle class and upper class. I assume a progress but like what about vote like you said the barriers to access and i'm just thinking about of course like the safety is so important and if you don't have if you already are a vulnerable population relation like yeah like what you like what venues are there for those people who experiences a._n._c. sings in a safe way so that was definitely one of kind of my mission statement for my thesis is a lot of work that is done on communities and so forth and most like the can a marquee studies and so forth are like outsider research so that people who don't identify as kinky aren't really a part of the community city and they're coming in to research and the problem that i saw in a lot of the time they like really miss the point <hes> similar into how if someone who's not from a certain country kind of comes in as an anthropologist to research culture and is only there for a couple of years and it's a lot of it is kind of colored by their perceptions and like how they're raised and stuff like that and also i i honestly found some of the studies just like really unflattering during portrayals of just saying i know one of them was basically saying it's like all these people are like not attractive and kind of socially awkward. I guess all kinky people are just like like on the margins of society and like home uses it was harsh. I'm not even paraphrasing that much like i remember reading. Oh i've seen that out hyped i've seen that belief <unk> places for sure and <hes> and it's interesting that you say that because something that's i've been thinking about while you've been speaking <hes> <hes> is anybody will not anybody can do their masters but if you have a thing you wanna prove you you improve it yeah so that's something that's just something that's kind of standing out to me right now as well. If i have an opinion on something and i want it to be true then i'm gonna go out and i'm gonna be. That's what my research is going to prove and <hes> and then i have you know just as much education as you do and i get to say whatever i want about the thing yes so kind of my point with us because like obviously identify a little more of his an insider so i can have kind of community ties and so forth that i can pull on and kind of get a little bit because i specifically wanted to avoid interviews and things like commercial spaces so like king clubs and stuff like that because because most you know research and so forth has kind of focused on those very commercialized very public communities which have a lot of privilege privilege because then of course you're gonna find that everyone's like upper middle class and white basically <hes> and there's going to be a law and a lot of times we'll be cysts and kind of it'll be a very narrow view so when i set out to recruit i specifically want people who were not as much in those spaces and in a masters you don't have as much time to do it and you can only do so much by did find able to get people who are like closer to my age age younger. Maybe not as much in king clubs. I had to trans- participants which i thought was super important because i found their perspective on perceived discrimination discrimination very different because to them they were saying it was like honestly like with candidates. It's private. You can kind of hide it. I don't feel like i've been discriminated against for <hes> so i definitely wanted it to be less focused on the commercial aspect because i know even for myself. I'm like i can barely go in these places because it's too expensive expensive. What have you learned about the legal side of of like so the book what's the book called the book of the dea yeah the d._s._m. <hes> and if kings are pair phileas abnormal sexual interests orientational are listed in that book that means they're considered mental health yeah right so in terms of being of people's preference for king getting out and then being fired or you know that's not legal. Is it like you can't fire. Someone based on a mental health but you can but you can. I mean because people have been like we've had a number of sick boy episodes that we had to to not publish because because because people have recorded it and then they go. Actually you know what i just got offered this new job and i don't want this. I don't want to risk yeah my career yeah by putting the fact that i have m._s. or that i have that i struggled bipolar. Whatever yeah it's like. It's is not technically legal but as you find creative ways around it in the same way that it's not it's not legal to not hire yeah <hes> you know now based on gender or whatever but you walk into fucking boxes and the only way the deal they all look the same. They're all like they're all young attractive. Women and there's no men like serving your table or whatever i mean. I'm sure there's a guy that works at oxy's as like hey that's not. That's not me but like you know what i'm fucking talking about. You've been to those oh interesting choice of all of your staff. Looking of very particular way is is interesting and hiring processes with restaurants when they're like you can you you can optionally upload headshot and you're like <hes> see what's going on here. Technically we not legal but also they fucking fucking happen. It happens a law home and i mean for legally like i know <hes> c._b._c. The ideas did a really good <hes> radio special on a consent to harm laws unlike the juxtaposition that a lot of comparison is made between like d._s._m. I'm in lake boxing and other contact sports. How like technically those are exceptions and they're loud and like endorsed within society of like any eight like hockey m._m._a. and things like that but when it comes to be d._s._m. Especially like in terms of sex work. It's in this legal gray area because technically consent to harm laws. You can't consent to any physical harm. Especially the leaves marks so if someone gets bruise after a spanking. It's technically assault really yeah really. How does that not never sports or fighting. Doesn't i didn't like i think it's a societal like exception or there's something that that's like. Yes find those guys could have consented and have agreed to beat the shit out of each other in the ring. Whatever <hes> but if it's it's the only difference is because it's perceived as sexual or sex one that gets involved. It's like oh no. That's wrong so wild yeah. I mean i think when it comes to sports is there's you know there's a commission and there's like for for a long time. Enemy was illegal in new york. Yeah you know and but now now you know after after a long and hard fought battle by whatever the u._f._c. or or you know any of the the different like anime regulating bodies. There's a there's now you know if the fighters commission in new york and they go okay. We're gonna lift the ban you can come in. It's not illegal here anymore. <hes> so like i think there is like it. Maybe there's like the social thing but there's also definitely some like late legal. Yeah you know waiver signing tight there. It is like i'm not i'm not in law. Mike a little rusty on the actual who'll legal aspect of it. There's <hes> so you have t- who she's done a lot of work on it reading anything from like her name's brenda kaufman then she's spoken quite a bit about like consent to harm laws etc but from my understanding is like you can't consent to physical harm under canadian law <hes> so if anything you like with kink as said like it leaves a marketing thing like that it's basically councils assault technically which is really frightening being for anyone who does predom- or anything like that or even anyone in the dating world or so forth because if you think about it technically if someone if you've disgruntled acts they could theoretically turn around and be like actually this was sold which is terrifying and like i know some of my participants definitely spoke spoke to that saying it's like it's really scary because sometimes you do end up with someone who will actually just go back and say everything we did was not consensual. I have friends. I have one friend friend who she literally as a contract. I mean now whether that's whether that would ever hold up <hes> who fucking knows but like she's she's. She's like i'm not going to the unless you sign this thing. That's 'cause their contract late with. King specifically are <hes> i don't. I don't know if it's king specific. I think it's more more so that work. I just carried the paperwork with you everywhere you go. Let's bring nine this yeah it. It's a it's a weird and interesting world that you know that that we live in a special like especially with kink yes when it comes to kink it is it's still so taboo yeah. It's still so misunderstood a lot of people yeah. It's not it's totally you know. It's not necessarily that widely exp- even the idea of it accepted. You know we italy. You got a lot of work to do. Thanks guys. We start by getting these down. Well sort of that. They'll be come doctor here at some point hopefully well. We're coming up to time but <hes> <hes> when you do can across that that line. I would be really fun to have you back on okay. Let's uh-huh see where where where things have evolved and and where you're where you work leads you touch when i'm balls deepened my p._h._d. At least uh-huh well. Thanks thanks for setting this glad. I'm glad we can make this happen while we were in town and <hes> thank you so much for tuning and we hope you enjoyed it. <hes> we will be back next week as we always earth another great episode but in the meantime good apple podcast hit the subscribe button lever rating fever review say it every week mean it every week and if you want to support us otherwise there was you can go to patriot com slash termi on mad neat little doodads on there that you can check out. I mean maybe maybe by the time you're hearing. This will have recorded some <hes>. <hes> what was it <hes> knin nice in. If you wanna hear are those <hes> those erotic stories narrated by yours truly in going over there and sign up <hes> you can reach us at termi on podcast itchy mail dot com or visit our our website termi on podcast dot com and there there are ways to submit if you want to be a guest on the show or if you have a question. You'd like to answer <hes> that what is it for this week. We'd go fuck yourself <music> <music>.