SYSK Selects: Can you Treat Mental Illness with Psychedelics?
The future of phone services here in it's called visible for forty bucks a month all in you get unlimited data messages and minutes. I'm Verizon's four G. Lt Network visible doesn't do annual contracts and unlimited data means unlimited. They also don't have physical phone stores so you don't have to deal with annoying sales people. Are you ready to learn remorse. which to visible than head divisible dot com slash stuff to get twenty dollars off your first month of service that's visible dot com slash stuff? Hey there everyone. That's me me Josh. And for this week's S. Y. K.. Selects a chosen. Can we treat mental. Illness with psychedelics. Spoiler alert they answer is a big big. Yes yes this is one of those pieces of history where things just Kinda fell out a place for something important and we also have the rare luxury of seeing where it went wrong and exactly who was responsible so enjoy this really interesting episode. Steffi should now welcome to step you should know a production of iheartradio's how stuff works. WHOA and welcome to the PODCAST? I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles Cheech Bryant teach and I wanted to start this one out like a twelve twelve year old. So that's what I'm going with a twelve year old on acid. Maybe maybe which has happened before in France actually really thanks to our oh friends. CIA those kids they just a whole town how to see what would happen and one kid came out his grandmother and tried to strangle her really i. I can't remember the name of the town. I can funny but No people were like shown up at the hospital right there. A lot of it was funny. Yes Internet like you know all these nineteen fifties French easer right losing their stuff for no apparent reason right but you know the the suicides that resulted yet not once not very funny before we get started I think we should do like an official. Co A for this one. I think there's a very good idea because what Josh and are about to talk about our illegal drugs but We just find it fascinating that they used to be used for certain things and they're starting to be used again in certain scientific research research labs for these things it is extremely fascinating. which is what we're talking about right exactly? I guess this could be a follow up to our K.. Ultra cast it's a follow up and and it's an epilogue and a prologue. Yes yeah very nice because we kinda came into the the. CIA LSD MK. Ultra podcast Catholic. Right in the Middle Yeah of the history of LSD toward the beginning but One of the things after nineteen forty the three one Albert Hoffman Right. Yes the chemists who created LSD LSD twenty-five try. Yeah it was his twenty fifth attempt. Yeah and tried it on himself intravenously as I understand it injected it. We always says I took by mistake. Yeah because it was the blood thinner and and then he took it for real. Yeah on I bike. Ride home is like gotta do some more than a Rita's quote please. I became aware of the wonder of creation the bag nifikorov sense of nature. Yes the create doctor Hoffman and he was just some Swiss guy and chemists He was at the first person to come up with a synthetic Eddie collusion gym about nineteen fourteen. A German chemist. Who worked for Merck? The pharmaceutical company came up with MD.. Ama better known as ecstasy ecstasy that far back And here's a tip for you chuckers Anytime according to the Associated Press you write about a designer drug unused by its designer name capitalize it so ecstasy is always capitalized. The Word Ecstasy. When you're talking about the the drug guess at Wilshire and not just the euphoric feeling you get from life? That's different yes. This lower case okay but it should be all caps. Yes you're so it was nineteen nineteen fourteen the MD MA was created. It's crazy and it was I guess it served as a it's not a catalyst because I think it's changed but it was to to be used in the synthesis of other chemicals right and it Kinda sat on the shelves for a little while until somebody along the way and then what happens and if I take this stuff yeah and they did and the CIA again looked at it. Wanted to see what it could do past it up mm-hmm and a guy by the name of Alexander. Shokhin right yes. He's Dow chemist and in Nineteen Seventy eight at the age age of seventy four. He published a study on the euphoric effects of Emmett was the first time anyone had ever published a study. What you're nineteen seventy-eight? Wow but he was seventy four and he. I noticed the Because he liked to take it and go to cocktail parties. Of course he did. Yeah so he's like. Hey man this stuff is the bomb. And here's my study on it here that my findings and lets everybody start taking this. So he starts giving it to his friends Including some psychiatrists. Did he give Pasa fires not yet. Okay that's coming though. This is very very close. Nineteen seventy pests. Fires came about one thousand nine hundred ninety eight okay So schilgen gives them to a friend. WHO's a psychiatrist right psychiatrists some of the more avant garde psychiatrists MM start giving it to their patients and it gets called atom for a little while while this is going on. It's being used by established psychiatrists a mysterious finance here in Dallas Texas finds out about this stuff starts taking hires an underground chemist and has it made himself and then start selling it at clubs all over Dallas and so this this illicit use of the substance simultaneous to its emergence on the club scene in about the mid eighties led to the outlaw of MDA. We'll get into it more. But the point is to this very long and rambling interim both of these drugs and others were legal at one time. Yes sure were put to good. Use Spin official use and then outlawed possibly unfairly and now we're starting to see them come back into use. Hallucinogens loosened Jen's being used to treat mental illness and mental harm in legitimate circles. Very legitimate quick question was that Dallas person was that cowboys owner Jerry Jones. I don't know I don't think anybody knows still got. Its start. Maybe to begin with so Josh you mentioned the CIA. Do want to point out. It wasn't just the Americans The Canadian government and British's British's works Britain's M I six Also experimented with LSD and between nineteen fifty and sixty five forty thousand people. All over the world had been treated with LSD. Yeah in in treatments yeah Carey grant yet. Can we go back to Hollywood in the nineteen Nineteen fifties so a couple of guys set up shop. Arthur Chandler was the other guy's name. Oh Hartmann Hartmann Mortimer Hartman. Who was the radiologist to Sid Hartman instead? You know I'm GonNa get psychiatry. Yeah these guys set up a shop called the Psychiatric Institute of Beverly Hills Yup Right in the middle of Beverly Hills and this is back in the day when things were those clean living going on on aside from that rampant alcoholism and cigarettes being smoked. daltry probably marijuana use going on here there. But that was among the hop op-eds. Yeah exactly so. He sets up a couple of rooms with a couch in starts booking patients At a rate of like six or eight hours a session. Yeah depending on what was going on with the person and five days a week there were booked solid hundred bucks a pop hundred which is a lot of money back then sure and I guess set included the drugs the drugs and the time that you were there right so they would sit with you. They'll give you some blinders To block out distractions and then you would go into to sort of like the more meditative sort of acid trip. Essentially you were trip trip in part because you were on pharmaceutical grade. LSD produced by the Sandos Company. Yeah we're talking about Alex Huxley novelist and actually he died trip in. Did you know that. Oh really yeah he was. He had Throat Cancer I think and The last thing he ever wrote a note to his wife requesting such and such milligrams the grams of LSD your microwave LSD injected intramuscular intramuscularly. Really and that was about six hours before he died so he died. I tripping and dead record. That was his last request before the grateful dead command chocking Screenwriter screenwriter Charles Bracket Took it Director Sidney Lumet Lemaire lament I think I always think I'm wrong. He took it a few times. uh-huh went through sessions called at wonderful. He re experience his own birth Apparently few people did. I'd never heard of that. I haven't either and Clare are both loose was a playwright married to time. Magazine publisher Henry Loose. She was also an ambassador and possibly an agent for the US government and they'd growth took acid so much that Henry loose in Time magazine said we need to write about this. This is awesome. Yeah there's a lot of good press that Time magazine gave LSD The in the fifties As a basically a cure all and again cary grant got into big time. Apparently he had like at least least a hundred trips. I believe he was yeah. Let's talk about him for a second because he was one of these guys that carefully constructed his persona uh-huh he worked very hard. Apparently he was the the the line he always gave was a lot of. PEOPLE WANNA be cary grant and I'm one of them. Yeah indicating that this Suave Mr Cool Persona was completely fabricating created by himself so he could get the fame and everything but deep down he suffered as a human until he started taking acid right and then he had Well he had some pretty interesting having revelations one of which I read one of somebody thought to write down the stuff that he some of the insights he had Some were Kinda deep Others were like if I have to look at a man. He should be required to Comb his hair and brush his teeth and where clean shirt earth that was an acid revelation. Yes it was interesting so kind of ran the gamut but yeah he He became a real dave. Oh Tae of LSD ex wife you too. Yeah Betsy And While she got him into right I think so. Who wrote the? We're we're part of this. Were basing this part on Vanity Fair article. Yeah Oh it's called carry in the sky with diamonds. Yeah but he was a huge advocate for LSD. He wasn't the only one and But he lived to you. See it outlawed and public sentiment turned against it right yes it's like MDA Tila side magic mushrooms and part of the world. Really one of the you could say that Timothy leary. Almost singlehandedly led to the tremendous suffering suffering of a lot of people who might otherwise have been helped by LSD Iran with his his naive bravado of you know the establishment just needs to get over at hangups and we should take acid. Yeah whether or not you agree that that's a good idea. It's a stupid thing to say. Sure leary was originally a Harvard psychiatrist right. Yes and he started taking. I think mushrooms and then he eventually started taking LSD and was fired from Harvard because he turned into a hippie and That was pretty much. The beginning of the end of St. Yeah they may have continued to use LSD as treatment for mental patients mental illness and depression. If not for Timothy leary right. Who was trying to spread the word about acid? That's right Back to cary grant real quick. He was so into Josh. He had a couple of stories written about him in Nineteen fifty nine in look magazine. Yeah the curious story behind the new cary grant gave a glowing flowing account of LSD. And then this is the best the following year the good housekeeping magazine it got the good housekeeping seal of approval in the nineteen sixty sixty issue and they called it the secret of grant. Second Youth I WanNa get a copy of that magazine. Yeah how awesome would that be. Yeah and that's kind of like the theme of this. PODCAST is so weird that these things were considered incredibly wonderful am benign And now they're just viewed it is just so they're evil in their outlawed in play because they were made illegal right prohibited right And again there's kind of a movement meant toward saying. Hey you know maybe Timothy leary did give this a bad name may be that that Underground Chemistry in Dallas Really kind of put a terrible spread on this and we should look at these again right. She cannot tell more story. Yes from Hollywood at the nineteen sixties. Yes Esther Williams famous diva actress from the MGM. Studio for an if cary grant's called Carey grant up after these articles and said hey can you introduce me to your Dr Dr Hartman. He did so at the time she was aging. Just had gone through a divorce right Her husband left her with huge debt with the IRS. And she he was still struggling with the death of her sixteen year. Old Brother she goes in the office. She takes acid. Does her session goes home to her parents. Still on on acid Has Dinner with them and then goes into the Bathroom Mirror says good night to her. Parents looks in the mirror and I'm going to read this quote. I was startled by a split image. One half of my face the right half was me. The other half was the face of a sixteen year. Old Boy The left side of my upper body was is flat muscular. I reached up with my boys hand to touch my right breast and felt my penis stirring it was a hermaphroditic phantasm awesome and I understood perfectly in that moment when my brother died I took him into my life so completely he became part of me. That's pretty huge thing that understand in a pretty jarring waited come to terms with that right. Yeah but that's what they're finding out now though is that these people are having these breakthroughs in the throes throes of their final days of. Let's say cancer. And they have these epiphanies. It actually makes a better toothbrush. Industrial Strength Shrink power claims of miraculous trendy ingredients. If you ask your dentist they'll tell you about the brush and more about how you use it and we're talking about equip which is what I used to brush my teeth because I love it. They have sensitive vibrations. They have a built in timer which I really need because it really guides that gentle brushing for what Dennis Dennis recommend which is two minutes with thirty second pulses ensuring an even clean quip automatically delivers brush heads to you every three months to for clean new bristles right on schedule and they're sleek intuitive design is simple to use and comes to the travel kept to that doubles as a mere mount. Listen to this people it starts at just twenty five dollars. You'll get your I refill for free at get quip dot com slash stuff to very simple way to support our show and start brushing better but you have to go to get quip tip. Q. U. I. P. Dot Com slash stuff to get your first refill for free head on over right now to get quip dot com slash stuff staged inch so LSD is outlawed. We're following time. Line here yes outlawed in. I think sixty five something like that At the very at the latest one thousand nine hundred ninety yeah they shut down the shop in Beverly Hills. Yeah and Sandoz stopped making it and they do it got it was outlawed in pushed underground yeah. MDM Ama made it until Nineteen eighty-five and MD.. Ama Story is linked very closely to a guy named Dr George Riccardi Who is Johns Hopkins researcher? This floored me so in one thousand nine hundred five about the time the Da is reeling from being totally unaware by the crack epidemic. Yeah basically a lot of people think looking for a whipping post sure They they they start considering outlawing. MDM At that moment. This guy. Dr George required a Publishes a study that he says. Is this drug deplete your Serotonin levels permanently. Yeah causing brain damage right. It can kill you. Yeah well that didn't that was later. Okay so this guy who is unknown at the time publishes the study starts to get National Institute of Drug Abuse Funding so busy. This is his job. He starts a career Creating scientific evidence in favour banning drugs leads to the outlaw of of MD.. Ama Right yes. That wasn't quite enough. They they scheduled it The the feds went after and they may even harder in two two thousand two. They came up with this thing called the rave act out. That's okay it's Oh what is raised. Stand for reducing Americans vulnerability to ecstasy to see. I wonder how long they sat around looking at the word rave saying we gotta make it fit. Yeah Yeah so The the Rave Act basically said if you are a club owner and somebody gets caught taking ecstasy or has ecstasy at your club. We're GONNA shut down your club right. It was a a huge huge law and it was bolstered by another Another study by Dr George required a That found that he tested on ten. Ten monkeys yeah this is the big one he injected them with. MGM A A bunch of went psychotic. Yeah some of them. showed early signs of Parkinson's all of a sudden Brian in two of them died almost immediately after being injected. Yeah so people started asking questions about this like what are you talking about. People who've been taking this drug forever and this has never happened right so they started kind of going after record a and They found out that he had actually injected check them with methamphetamine. The first thing that tipped him off owes he injected him because people were like well. You don't inject ecstasy. So that's kind of a weird way to do it right and they found out it was methamphetamines which he blamed on a mislabeling of a drug shipment which they trace back and now the label right here. Yeah the drug providers there's like don't blame US foulkes pretty clear so this is by this time the rave act is already passed her in the Ray. That didn't get past but something that included that right was passed by that time. The study that record a produced was was published in science the journal Science. That's eyebrows you get as far scientific journals right And finally he gets beaten up enough that he he prints a full retraction day came clean. The science runs this retraction saying the hopes the whole study. Then I produced right. Just forget it ever existed at. That doesn't happen much no it doesn't. That's very unusual sir. Required a key. I get the impression it's kind of this Well just kind of seems like the scientific community views him largely as a chill out of the government so so There's a couple of articles that he shows up in on a reason in reason magazine for checking out and you know the other interesting thing about that whole story about about the big fake study he did with methamphetamines as ecstasy is it the Parkinson's foundation. The People Parkinson's researchers said I. I don't think that that's true. That doesn't make much sense to us. Either they would show signs of Parkinson's right so they looked into it. People went about reproducing. Study Yeah and The the people who run the Parkinson's foundation actually issued a statement saying EXC- does not do this. Yeah so they. They basically came came out in favor of ecstasy. It's kind of neat to watch from the outside because there's this guy who's Again kind of viewed as a she'll the government who's beating up on this drug that a lot of people who are also in the scientific community fill is being unfairly outlawed churn so there's kind of beating up on him in retaliation. It's kind of neat to see heads beat up on another inert fights and the idea went so far that the NFL PA just kind of quietly lightly pulled their fact sheet on ecstasy like Let's just take this down off the website after the retraction. Yeah we'll rewrite it. I'm sure it's back up now. Sure as something else. Yeah but it doesn't include immediate death and Parkinson's disease I would imagine that's right so timothy leary dies. He gets shot into space. He's out of the picture entirely early. Everybody gets sick. A hippies generally Georgia as the basically the guy who single handedly getting ecstasy outlawed laud. His work comes into great great question. Yeah and people start going back and looking at 'em the again and they start looking at LSD again. And that's where are we find ourselves right now. Yeah slowly but surely people are starting to run studies on whether or not you can use these hallucinogens to treat mental elmer's in the results are pretty astounding actually yet and you know where they're leading the charge in Switzerland in Los Angeles. Yeah all these years later. Same Place yes hippie freaks. Yeah so yeah Josh. They are I think in Switzerland In solothurn Switzerland they have been experimenting with LSD Suicide which you might know as magic mushrooms. Yes Ketamine you might know Special K. Hey kind of surprised me that that was in there. Yeah I hadn't heard much about that one either. And they're getting these These studies published in nature reviews neuroscience another leading industry peer reviewed publications. Yeah it's not all under the table backroom experiments. Oh No these are very heavily heavily Overseen you have to be a very legitimate researcher to get government approval they're not funded thus still there. They say they're still having a hard time time with funding And they're just sort of looking to get some restrictions loosened. They're not saying. Make all this stuff legal right. They're not battling a legalization on legalization. Efron not at all. No but what. They're the reason why so many people are kind of starting to put their reputations on the line. is because the the results that they're seeing so we have antidepressants right. Yeah They take weeks to kick in sure. They have all sorts of side effects. You're and what they're what we're seeing in in these studies now are that the things like ketamine Md Ama LSD are having like a huge impact right out of the gate right. There's one and study That came out in July. I believe And it found it was a study of twelve people who were diagnosed with PTSD post traumatic traumatic stress disorder. Yeah that's one of the big ones. Yeah that's huge. They're looking at the That's where you as. Well it's what we used to call. Shell shock you go through traumatic experience parents and you relive it over and over again In its its debilitating They found that of the twelve people in the study. Ten Hannah them after going through the study after taking 'em Demi no longer met the criteria to be diagnosed with PTSD afterward. Ten of the twelve off. Yeah and for my understanding and most of these studies is it's not like you have to stay on ecstasy. Your whole life like a lot of people have these epiphanies and they quit taking it and they had changed their outlook in that right yet. That's the impression I'm getting to Ketamine apparently is good for depression in the same way Just a very tiny dose. You can get you over severe clinical depression or that. The results the early results. We should say In everything from quitting smoking to suicidal thoughts cluster headaches yeah MARBURG studying this. Those are migraines for men right What they call Mike Ms? It migrants the things. I know they're so debilitating that you consider suicide or you know not. Everyone does obviously. But it's just this awful pain you can't leave your house you get to sit in a dark room uh-huh and so it's helping their in What I thought was interesting Johns Hopkins? You might have heard of them. Sure we'll reputable institutions are required as from Was it uh-huh they Did an experiment where they gave Silla Simon to emotionally stable individuals. Like this wasn't even people that are mentally ill. People that had never taking hallucinogens. Before which is interesting that you would be. I think they had a sixty four year old. That signed up for this. Yeah it's crazy and they said Ages twenty four to sixty four and they said the experiment a year later they said the experience is one of the most meaningful spiritual experiences their entire lives and that those were mentally only stable folks. Sure and this is a year on right. It's still had an impact on them They're also finding that OCD and basically a mood disorders are the primary target of hallucinogenic treatment. Right psychedelics for treatment and the reason being when we think is because they target Serotonin in the brain. This is another reason why they're not addictive. They don't they don't employ the reward circuit in the brain right. which is how we become addicted to things right? Flooded with dopamine member it just affects the mood circuits serotonin. And we don't really have a very good grasp on Serotonin tone and exactly how that works but we do know that There's correlations between High levels of Serotonin right or low. Oh levels of Serotonin and depression right right and we know that Using antidepressants which block the reuptake of Serotonin. reduces symptoms of clinical depression and people. So we know that Serotonin in there somewhere. Yes we know that the more so tony had the better generally or looser tonens bad right right and then we also know that hallucinogens target. The somehow that's pretty much where the research stands right now. Yeah it makes you wonder where where would we be if LSD 'EM hadn't been in the wilderness for the last few decades. Well yeah they may have a pill like a low dose pill because a lot of these studies just so you now now back in cary grant state. I mean it was full full on acid trips but a lot of these like the suicide pills. They'll give you a very low dose so I I don't I get the feeling that it's not like this huge Mushroom trip that a lot of these patients are going through because it said eighty percent of the people recognize when they did not have the placebo So if it was a one hundred percent then it was probably a pretty low dose. Yes would be my guess Would would you if if everything was legalized and MDA came to be prescribed for four Just happiness right. Would you take it. Would you take happy pill that was legal and didn't have side effects not to say India may doesn't sl to fix fix there is a Like basically the three days after a depression that follows. When you're Sir Tonen levels are repeating themselves? I don't think think I would because there are quote unquote happy pills now And I'm I mean it's not like I'm against antidepressants. Or things like that. Because people definitely benefit from those who need them uh-huh but I I just I don't need that kind of thing so I would not I would not sir. You are not alone chuck. There is a survey conducted for where this BBC series on Britain of British people. That found that seventy nine percent of them said that they would not take a happy pill right it was legal and had no side effects. It's interesting yeah because it kind of I think that for a large segment of the population. There's just ah the idea of synthesizing happiness is untoward. Yeah you know. Yeah it's it's a little weird. I mean that's not to say a square. I don't like to get down Another aspect Josh. I mean we're we're talking right now about. Literally the effect it has on your brain and your Serotonin in levels in your moods right. They've also found that Patients Cancer Patients in particular who consume hallucinogens or people people with just Traumatic events from earlier in their life. They have the ability to relive some of these memories events from their pass right they can unlock buried traumatic. Eric episodes deal with them. Psychologically put them to rest and come out the other side with a new understanding free from these demons right right Remember in the hypnosis episode. Where we're talking about How the weights viewed now is that you you are it? You're accessing the subconscious more easily popping. Open a control panel. That's what this is this what they're seeing with. Md Ama may apparently You are able to access things From a very empathetic way. I think the the term I've heard for it is called A psychotherapeutic catalyst yeah. I think he's six starts right things and I think one researcher called it it's psychotherapy echo. Therapy sped up here. It's called the yeah it's like psychotherapy on acid they. Yeah Hey we want to talk to you about the future. 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That's visible dot com slash stuff the LSD specifically hasn't been the greatest friend to everybody. Who's ever taken it? Yeah sure and what's funny in in this Article uh-huh it's on the site. Can we treat mental illness with hallucinogens. Tom Sheaf your body has to go to the sixties psychedelic rock scene examples of people who've had a bad bedtime on acid I know And apparently what what the conventional wisdom is is if you are predisposed to mental illness LSD. Ken exacerbate that. Yeah if you have a bad trip you're going to have a really really bad trip because this year already predisposed mental illness. Yeah he's Brian Wilson and syd Barrett as the two examples. Yeah and those are stellar examples. They really I gotta say. But they're also counterintuitive due to what we're seeing with like PTSD. You are already suffering from a mental illness. So here's some. MD Emmy right probably. LSD would be horrible to give to PTSD survivor. Yeah Yeah right I would say so And what else chuck can we talk about. Pamela Sokota sure. Yeah it's very interesting story This was a woman Age fifty seven at the time of this article who was in the final stages of Colon cancer. She'd outlive prognosis. She was anxious and depressed. She was worried about her family. Her husband and what they were going to do without her it was. It's not a good life. She was living here at the end and she was prescribed anti-depressants. Of course didn't work didn't do a thing for her so she volunteered for an experiment airmont. Ucla in two thousand and five and started taking Silla. Simon the magic mushroom pill in pill form. Yeah she Had A lot of breakthroughs throughs. they brought her husband in the end of one of the sessions. And he said there's my pammy she was just beaming with light and I haven't seen her that joyous and so along she was totally alive and happy and she continued to take it until she didn't need it anymore. She had these breakthroughs and then all the sudden her husband and Pamela we're going to concerts. They went hiking at the Grand Canyon. They went on vacations. They did all these things that she hadn't been doing In a long time because because of these epiphanies she had under the influence of Silla Sivan And sadly she died. We'll see a cancer. Yeah she died yeah that's what she died from in two thousand in six and her husband said she died in his arms but her husband was very appreciative and they actually did a benefit about a week before she died for the institute that was doing this work at Ucla So it's pretty interesting. Yeah the definitely one of the applications that they're finding is end of life care or Using m the M A or LLC sil assignment. Sure we'RE SPECIAL K. Apparently what about this. I Gain uh-huh they're finding that AIBA gain works really. Well I began is a It's from a hallucinatory route plant in Africa. I believe And they're finding meaning that you go on a thirty six hour trip. That's a long time his walk time but they're finding that it's really effective in breaking Addiction in like serious addictions to heroin cocaine. So being on this stuff for thirty six hours creates a break in the addiction cycle itself. Sure but what they're finding. That's most notable about it is there's a lack of withdrawal symptoms that you see in every other type of addiction removal yeah especially with heroin like heroin. You're supposed to have physical withdrawal since withdrawal symptoms and people who are taking I will gain are not experiencing insist that like they would if they tried to kick the habit without. It's pretty remarkable. Yeah it is very remarkable. It's very interesting. We should probably say I don't know if we have yet that this podcast is in no way an endorsement of going out and buying yourself some street drugs and you know seeing what happens. It's it's a study of what we find it'd be very fascinating The fact that this has been a resurgence in this and these you know qualified doctors. Ucla Johns Hopkins. After saying we should look the stuff. Yeah and they definitely are and they're getting some very interesting result. What about the AA guy? We should mention that really quickly. That was pretty funny. Oh yeah a Bill Wilson. Yeah one of the CO founders of A yeah he apparently took LSD in the fifties was it. Yeah and this was after he was long after he was sober from. Alcohol can around in the thirties. I think yeah So he he takes LSD in the fifties and it's like this is really helpful so I think everybody who comes into AA take And they were like should probably not do that so they talked him out of it. The reason why he found it helpful. When is that hallucinogens? Part of a twelve step program is to really reflect on past wrongdoings undoing ze. Yeah and then elucidate them right to another human being and apparently LSD Ama These other drugs help they serve as a catalyst for that process so tap into that. That's why Bill Wilson thought the this really helpful because again it's like a therapy therapies sped up fascinating very fascinating. I will say this though I'm GonNa go out on a limb and say even though we're not saying oh you should go out and do these things. I will say that some chemically created in a lab pill called an antidepressant Isn't I mean what's the difference the differences I think in my opinion from what I've seen once marketed in legal and the other is illegal. Yeah it's as simple as that one is made by Merck in one is not bathed by Merck but emerge used to make this right sandwiches. Ironic public sentiment counts for everything. Yeah you know. It's the same reason the alcohol Kahal you can go into a bar and get completely wasted out of your mind and get in the car but you can't walk into a bar and smoke a joint or shoot heroin or shoot heroin ruin and we're not lobbying for anything. It's just interesting that the things that society has deemed acceptable Alcoholism is just fine lost. Not just fine but it's it's legal and you can do it right even kills all these people in this is not acceptable. It's just it's funny how we've evolved to think some things are evil and some things are just great yeah. I wonder what the future holds Josh. I wonder myself we'll find out. Yes we will. We lived long. That is about it for this one. You should probably I check out Can we treat mental illness with hallucinogens. On the site be sure to check out. Carrie in the sky with diamonds Vanity Fair Article Type in Georgia Are Icu a RT An indoor reasons website. It'll bring up some cool stuff. There's a killer Ciller Time magazine article from I think two thousand or two thousand one On ecstasy on MD.. May it was. That's really it's called the Happiness in a pill Yes it's time now for listener mail right yes. I had a listener mail Josh from Ria and this was about octopus occupy. We were corrected. The octopus not right but she says gee the highest so right. Well we had all these people in actually the Latin thing Hi Guys Your podcast. On an octopus I made my day to day. Thank you I work as an Aquarius at a San Francisco Aquarium and one of my favorite responsibilities is is our cephalopod gallery. I Yeah I get to do enrichment with giant Pacific octopodes Make sure all of our eight legged friends stay out of trouble. And I'm currently teaching a two spot octopus. How to the open jar to get his favorite food which is live crabs? Right there with Ya. Constructive plus It was great to hear someone besides myself get a little well to excited about these critters and you know we got great feedback on this people. Love the octopus. Because you're so freaky The story about Lucretia Mac evil especially early crack me up I work with the GPO. That's the giant Pacific Octopus. That might give her a run for our money for the past few weeks. I've been walking around with what my colleagues call octopus. Octopus kisses up the link of my arms. But I'm afraid my husband is getting a little suspicious about the number of hickeys have acquiring so that's from the little suckers right the little suckers clearly These were given to me while I tried to remove the individual from blocking the flow to his tank and stop his flooding of the entire aquarium. Graham it's never boring day with cephalopods in your life guys. Thanks for all the great podcast. If you're ever in San Francisco one of my favorite places Josh. Yeah let me know and I'll see if I can't work Out some behind the scenes cephalopod goodness nice and that is from Ria. And she says and don't worry by the way I have trouble pronouncing Hetero catalysts huddle lists as well and have taken to calling in the sperm Tentacle Sperm Tentacle. Works Sperm. ICAL is what she says uh-huh she says it's