A Conversation With Jane Goodall


From NPR and Wvu are. Boston I'm Anthony Brooks and this is on point when you were a child. What did you want to become? Our next guest dreamed of living in Africa on wild animals and Sunday writing about her adventures and her jeep dream came true Jane. Goodall began studying wild chimpanzees in Tanzania sixty years ago. July nineteen sixty Jane Goodall a twenty six year old English girl has embarked on a remarkable adventure. At the request of the British anthropologist, Dr L. V. Leaky. She has observed the daily lives of chimpanzees in east. Africa That's from the National Geographic Documentary, the hope which came out earlier this year goodall taught us how much we have in common with chimpanzees, and over the decades she expanded her work and became a leading conservationist and climate activist. Jane, Goodall is the founder of the Jane Goodall Institute and United Nations Messenger of peace. She's also dame dame of the British Empire and. and. She's the author of more than a dozen books including my friends, the wild chimpanzees, which came out in nineteen, sixty nine and reason for hope, spiritual journey, which came out thirty years later lots more books in between Jane Goodall welcomed on point and congratulations on sixty years of research in Gone Bay, and it's truly an honor to have you on the program. Well. Thank you and to me and it's lovely to be on the program which I've seen on the number of times before and yeah. Sixty years pretty amazing. I don't. Go well, it is amazing in the work you've done is truly amazing. I wondered if you could serve, take us back. We heard that clip from the documentary which is wonderful by the way take us back to July of nineteen sixty, nineteen, sixty, twenty, twenty-six, you land in Tanzania to study chimpanzees. What was the first challenged? You faced when you arrived? Actually the first challenge was getting to the Gumby National Park. It was a game reserve and. The the problem. was that on the other side of Lake Tanganyika just across the world. They Belgian Congo's it was then had erupted, there was violence and so the little town when when we arrived was absolutely full of fleeing refugees lost their. Possessions, so it was, it was about two weeks before I was allowed to proceed along lake. Get get to the Gumby National Park, but once off their. You know it seem brother unreal. It just felt am I really here. Can this really really be me? Climbing up after the tent was erected, looking out over the lake and hearing baboons, balking breathing in the smell of the forest, really was magic I. Bet it was I have to imagine that just finding your subjects, the chimpanzees I mean it wasn't like you arrive there put up your tent and then sort of sat down with your notebook and just started studying them. I mean how did you? How did you go about finding them first of all? Well I for the first two three weeks, I was made to take a local guy with me by the British authorities was still part of the crumbling Grisham Empire back then? and. They wouldn't let me go out alone. So? He showed me some of the trails and the secret was you climb up to a place which overlooks the valley, and then you wait, and you hope that the window to violent, so you can see trees moving, and often it turn turn out to be baboon on monkeys, but sometimes it was chimpanzees. And once I was able to be on my own, which is. Exactly what I wanted to do a then. I would find a tree that was ripe fruit. That very early in the morning and wait and chimpanzees runaway. As soon as they saw me, we'd never seen a white eight. You know they just the very conservative. and. Well! I was really worried Sony money to six months and I was afraid that the money would run out before I found anything really exciting. Of course you did find lots of exciting things and one of the things I wanted to ask you is to talk about your connection with them and t to animals in general, because anyone who has watched a film of you interacting with chimpanzees. I mean there's this incredible sense of. Connection it's. It's not just a skilled scientists observing something. That is really human to animal connection I'd love you to describe that because it's quite powerful. It always brings tears to my eyes when I watched the footage of you working with these animals. I think it started when I was born loving animals, and said well. My life I being outside in Magadan, waiting for. Eggs to hatch into baby birds waiting till they've fledged and keeping very quiet, so that the parent birds got used to me and would come in and feed the babies. And I would watch squirrel occasionally. There was Fox and of course I had this wonderful dog who taught me so much about animals, so when I got to Gumby I hadn't been to university. Nobody else was studying gyms. Virtually nobody was studying anything in the wild, and so I just did the same thing. And gradually gradually the chimpanzees got use to me and. It was David Greybeard. Love it, David Greybeard I began to lose his fear, and he really helped the others to lose their fear, because if he was in a group with them instead of running away, they sort of I. Suppose they thought well David Sipping Man. He was a leader, so she so scary after all and then gradually. Lack of fear, turn to aggression that was. Pretty Nasty. Through four weeks, where the chimpanzees treated me like Predator, it wanted me to go away. But I didn't. I just sat pretended. I wasn't interested in. And interestingly it was specially when it was raining. And you know if you watching people in the pelting rain, you see, take risks. They'll run across the road. They normally wouldn't an chimps to a bit like that. But anyway eventually they realized I wasn't going, and luckily they didn't try and attack me much much stronger than we are. And then that aggression turn to tolerance, acceptance and trust, and the seems that you saw in that in that documentary. You know we couldn't do that today. We don't interact with them today. We know they can catch. Diseases can catch this, so it's not today, but back then. Anybody who was studying animals tried to have a close relationship and I. Those days were absolutely the best I knew the chimpanzees so well. I trust them and may trusted me. And it was wonderful. It sounds absolutely magical I WANNA. Ask You about. One of these major discoveries that chimps make and use tools. Nobody knew that before you did that. Can you describe that discovery and how it made? You feel when you observe it? I mean when you sort of figured out what they were doing. Did you know at that moment? That Only God? This is amazing. We didn't realize this before. Now. Remember hadn't been college. I wasn't under his and it was David. Greybeard did David Greybeard and that was walking through the forest. It's been raining, and then I suddenly so back shape sitting on a termite mound, and I wasn't really close, but close enough to see very well through binoculars and I could see him breaking up grass stems pushing them down into the termite mound, picking the insects off with his lips, amid sometimes breaking off the leafy Twig, which had to be trimmed to make it useful as a tool. And quite honestly, it didn't surprise me that the chimps could do that on the other hand, Western science through that only humans used inmate tools. We were defined as man, the toolmaker and so I knew that this was a very exciting observation. I knew that my mentor Louis Leakey would be tremendous excitement, and indeed it led to the breakthrough because he was able to approach the National Geographic, and not only that they provide money for me to carry on the six months ran out, but eventually they sent the photographer and filmmaker Hugo van. Loic and it was his film that you know that really took them the behavior of chimps around the world. Let's go to Jane who's calling from Orleans. Massachusetts go ahead, Jane. You're on the air. Thanks for the call. Thank you so much. Yeah, my question was. How did you tell the line between accurately identifying the emotions? You're seeing in these animals without overly anthropomorphized them. Great Question James. Okay this this thing about anthropomorphized thing I mean. Quite honestly you know. When I leaky made me go to Cambridge when I being with the chimps, the two years, and I knew them as individuals I knew their behavior I'd seen. Grooming peacefully resting relaxing playing laughing. Weeping and will not weeping, but I'm being very very miserable young ones when they weren't allowed to suckle anymore, I'd seen anger resentment I'd seem sense of humor. and. I was shocked when I got to Cambridge to do a PhD because Leakey said there was no time to mess about with an undergraduate degree, I was very nervous. It can imagine. And be told by many of the professors that I'd done everything wrong. I shouldn't have given the chimpanzees names they should have had numbers that was scientific, and I couldn't talk about personality I couldn't talk about minds capable of problem solving and I suck me. Talk about it motions, but you see when I was a child I had this wonderful teacher. That was my dog rusty, and he told me that in this respect, the professors were absolutely wrong. We are not the only beings on the planet with personality, mind, emotion, and lovely, because chimps so like US Biology Michelle Ninety eight point, six percent of our DNA and because of Hugo's film. That Science Bradshaw was forced away from this reductionist way of thinking and today you can study all those things you can study personality, mind and emotion. Hm, I'm glad you made that point about dogs. Because someone who's had many dogs I love dogs. I've always felt like. Of course there's emotion. Of course there's personality. Of course. There's all that stuff that doesn't just belong to us. Human Beings. We're talking to Jane Goodall about her legacy, climate, change and conservation coming up later in the hour. Stay with us. I'm Anthony. Brooks this is on point. A. This is on point. I'm Anthony Brooks. We're talking about sixty years of research with Jane, Goodall ethologist, conservationist, activist, and founder of the Jane Goodall Institute. She's a global conservationist. She's active as well in spreading the word about the importance of tackling climate change, and we're gonNA. Get to all that as well as your calls Jane Goodall. I just I have to come back to this question about dogs that came up before the break because I've read that that a dog's not chimps where your favorite animals that true. Absolutely to and you know chimpanzees so light people don't even think the McDonald's i. mean that that just just. Know Ferry people. So. The explosive development of our intellect really is the biggest difference. Yeah, yeah, so your work has expanded from from studying and saving chimps to climate change, and and honestly saving the world in that wonderful documentary. The hope you referred to at one point is the Mother Teresa the environment. Bit of a tough job you say, but how do you think about the the biggest challenge that we're facing right now? Well. I think this actually three major challenges and one is. We must alleviate poverty because you see an African village, and it's the you know it's. Huge crippling poverty as lack of good health education, the degradation of land as populations grow, and it was when I flew over the tiny combination of which had been part of a huge forest. And, by nine, thousand, nine, hundred ninety was the. Island deforestation all around were completely bad hills, and that's when it hit me. We don't help. People find ways of living without destroying the environment. Then we come, save the chimps, and so that began the the Jane. Goodall Institute JJ began a program which we Cari. which is now. Six other African countries very successful wouldn't go into it. People could look it up. On the Web, but The people have now become A. Partners in conservation so one we need to solve poverty to. We need to do something about the unsustainable lifestyle of so many millions of people on this planet who have? Than may need. Don't think about do I. Need this thing I'm buying you know, and then we also have to think about the fact. This seven point two billion people on the planet today at already we're running out to natural resources faster than nature can replenish the men's someplace. And in twenty fifty, it's estimated there will be. Nine point seven billion ten billion people, so these are problems that we we must be thinking about if we want your planet, it's the they're huge problems. I won't ask you about that. One you the one that you referred to as maintaining these unsustainable lifestyles, and I wanna ask you about that because it seems to me that one of the biggest challenges is how we define progress and governments and lots of people define progress by growth by expanding GDP so it doesn't that work in opposition to what we need to do, and if so, how do we deal with that? How do we reverse the thinking around? Expansion isn't necessarily compatible with saving the planet. It's It's compatible with destroying the planet. It doesn't make sense. You can't have unlimited economic development on a planet with finite natural resources, and if we don't. Get together. A new green economy find a different way of of. Thinking about success. What is success right now? For the most part IT'S A. Being successful in business, if money getting stuff. Getting power. And we need to start thinking about success being. We need to have a life that we can enjoy a life where we can support our family. Yes, not go over the top. We've I mean who needs four houses. Quite come on how? Who needs to yards? Who needs a private plane that a few people actually do, but most people don't. So we have to. We think way way live, because if we don't you know, we're already on a downward trajectory. That's why began our program young people roots and shoots because it's their future, and we've been feeling it and be wanting to be very passionate about these issues. Jangling and ask you about roots and shoots because I'd love to hear more about that program. We've got a lot of callers that want to get in on this conversation with you, so let's go to Lynn. WHO's calling from Bridgewater Mass? Go hedlund. You're on the air with Jane Goodall. Thanks for the call. Hello thank you so much and Dr All. You're such an inspiration to so many and I'd love to hear from you how you. Went from being an observer to research you now worldwide activists, and what words of advice you have to our young people to get involved and make a difference today. Thanks Luke. It it. It just happened and I think it was the geographic films and articles spreading around the world and. People began to be fascinated by the behavior of the chimpanzees and I. Don't know how I mean. People he says today the time an icon will I never planned to be an icon, and at first I hid I. Mean I was so shy. But then after a bit once I left Gumby and was trying to raise awareness. Raise money and things like that. I realized that when people came up in the airport and wanted to Selfie or something I could. I could use that. To tell them about roots and shoots to. To say that they could help by joining the institute and you asked about what we tell young people what I tell, the young people is every single day you live, you make some kind of impact on the planet, and you have a choice faced a mess. You're very very poor, which when you have no choice, but you know. People. Listening probably can have choice. Think about what you buy. How did it on the environment in its production, the lead the cruelty to animals like the terrible factory farms. Cheap, because child, slave, labor or budge late. Wages that don't even enable people to live promptly. And make those ethical choices. When billions people make ethical choices, they start moving towards different world. Jane Goodall I WANNA ask you about the current pandemic, and how that's affected your your research, and and and and what you talk to people about in terms of challenges we face, because among the concern concerns the emergence of diseases like covid nineteen. And the link between the destruction of nature, and the current pandemic I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about that, and how this pandemic has affected the way we need to think about these issues. Well the fact that the way I think about it but I'm hoping the silver lining will be that it helps more and more people to think about these issues, and you know the people studying the so-called zoonotic diseases diseases that jumped from animal to a person. that. They predicted a pandemic like this. We keep getting epidemics. We keep getting diseases. We disrespect nature we destroyed for. We crowd animals together, which can lead to new animal diseases. We push animals into close contact with people. That you can have a virus or bacteria jumping from one animal to one person may be Biden's with a cell in the human body may be that leads to a new disease like coke nineteen, and it's disrespected animals. We we hunt them kill them. Eat Them. We sell them in on hygiene nick. Breed markets in Africa which is where HIV AIDS began we traffic then selling them from different parts of the world to the wildlife markets and pet markets in Asia animals from all over the place, different species of crowded together in horrible on hygiene conditions, and again it's a perfect environment for virus or bacteria. Indeed, let's could nineteen is thought to have begun in in one of these markets in will have in. China and saws began in another of these markets in China, And Mas began from domestic camels in the middle, east and many many diseases have jumped from animal to person in our. Stately horrendous factory fogs. I want to play. A little bit of sound from the National Geographic documentary the hope in this scene your with former US secretary of state James Baker reflecting on the partnership that you to form. You had lunch with him to discuss your goals and how he might help you. Let's listen to just a little bit of this. I remember during that lunch telling her that I love nature because I was an honor and fisherman. But. I'm interested in clean water and clean air and improves serving the resource and preserving the environment. He seemed to think that what I was doing was. Something that was worth while because he telex to tell OCCC and those based telex only embassies of the countries I was going to, and he said please help chain. So. I'm fascinated in this just because when I think of the work you do I might not think of someone like James Baker. As the first person, you would ally yourself with or get help from talk a little bit about that alliance in how he was helpful. To you and and into what you were trying to do the work you're trying to do. Well at the time I was also tackling the use of chimpanzees in medical research, the terrible conditions, and so I was doing a lot of talking to different people on the hill and I think again you know this this geographic film Jane and the chimps beauty and the beast. People fascinated. I got messages are so would like to meet you. That's what happened with James Baker. I didn't initiate that. He asked if I would come and have lunch with him. And so I was just about to set off to Africa to learn more about the plight of the gym, so they were gradually disappearing forests were going. How he helped. Was this telex into the embassy's? They will help to. Manage to do a great deal more because of. The night could otherwise done because very little money by the way I tackled him about the hunting. Did you say them? And and how did he respond? We I said you know that I completely disapprove punting them. You and they said well. Yes, I imagined you. You did and We didn't pursue it too far but I. You know I can't just sit and let people think I approve hunting especially now especially. so-called sports hunting I mean that is absolutely horrendous today. It's really horrendous animals. Becoming extinct and people go out an rare of the animal and the more close to extinction. It is the more money they pay to go and it. Who can want to kill an elephant giraffe Abacha, these beautiful animals, and then glow to them and put the head on the wall. Oh, it's terrible You speaking of the work you did Around medical research and saving animals from the chimps in particular for medical research in that documentary, the hope you told there was a very very powerful story of meeting a chimp named Joe in one of the labs, and he was in a cage, and you reminded of what it's like for these animals to live in the wild, and and the wonderful life they have in the wild, and you had an emotional response. A tear trickled down your cheek. Tell us how Joe Joe responded. To that or You Know I. Don't really know why the labs that me in triage for them did and this was the first one hours in a state of shock actually seeing. I had to see with my own eyes to really talk about it anyway. This joe there are agents in one room, each in a separate cage on steel balls around and thinking about the chips are going be He'd been that twenty years, and of course little tears down onto my mosque and he reached out regionally. Wiped away the tears. and. was incredibly emotional moment for me and finally with the help of many other organizations, chimps being A. Being a medical research on chimpanzees as being stalked everywhere. That was It was quite a scene to see. Joe Johann reach out and touch your face and wipe that tear away. You had other unlikely allies including several leaders at at the oil company, the oil and gas company CONACO PHILLIPS WHO helped build a new facility for chimpanzees in Brazzaville. Congo, so here's Rodney mcallister, who was Conoco's a country manager and helped lead the project. The facility and had to be disassembled freighter to the Congo taken out over that miserable excuse for what's left of a road. And assembled in a location is remote and hostile. It was my job and I believed in. And I wanted to see it happen. Jane asks you to do something. You're not gonna off and say. PROJECTOR. Heck now so you and Rodney mcallister remain friends to this day. How much flack did you catch for partnering with an Oil Company? And and why do you think it's important to work with people who you may not agree with in in very profound ways? Well first off. It wasn't CONACO Phillips back. Then it's changed back then. CONACO was the most environmentally friendly oil company. Probably ever I mean I can't go into tool now, but when I I was offered held by them to set up a sanctuary. I thought through very carefully and I thought well one. I've really learned about Conaco what they're doing. And how they exploring is having the minimal impact on the environment, and secondly I'm flying I'm driving. I'm actually paying money for their products. So how hypocritical to say well. You're really trying to do good, but you're not. All companies are not going to take your money, and therefore the school suffer it. It was just a critical. And still if you can join a company that's trying to do it right. And help them to do better. That's a really good thing to do on the other hand to take money from a company that is really bad company, not trying to make any improvement. That's not a good thing to do. And what they ended up doing was truly helpful, right, I mean. They created a wonderful reserve for the for these chimpanzees. To Sanctuary, they built these buildings, and they had good relationship obviously with the government, so that was really my introduction to the. To the President and Minister of Environment. And Education actually in Congo Brazzaville, which was incredibly helpful as the as went on on Icho left because they didn't find viable oil there. And, so we had a big struggle to keep its component a sanctuary, we still you know always trying to raise money about one hundred and seventy chimps their now because of the Bush meat trade mothers shot. Through to eat. At, babies sometimes pinched stolen to be traffic to be sent off overseas. Pet so trained into taking. Back, the medical? Jayne good old standby. We gotta take a break. We're talking going to talk about a lot more. My Guess Jane Goodall. Thala just conservationists activists best known for her long term study of Z's Anthony Brooks. This is on point. A. This is on point I'm Anthony. Brooks were talking to Jane Goodall about her legacy and the challenges surrounding climate change and species conservation, and let's go right to our calls. Jane Goodall. We've got a lot of callers who want to get in on this conversation. Juniper is calling from Nashville go ahead, juniper. You're on the air. Thanks for the call. Hi. My name is junior juniper I'm eight years old I was wondering what parts of the world need the mostly searched because I want to be that when I grow up juniper. Thanks so much for that Jane. Did you get that? I hunt. She wanted to be a better. Question what part of the world needs the most research? Because? Yes, she wants to be a vet when she grows up. Well I tell you that there isn't a single country where event is needed where we need every single country, animals need help. Animals need to be protected, and sometimes they're veterinarian who come and work in sankt trees to look after the chimpanzees. We have battery help now in in the national parks, the wild chimpanzees because the so few left that we have to make sure to try and keep them healthy, so we can dot them and treat them if necessary a bad wound for example. juniper thanks so much for that. Call Jane Goodall I'm so glad that juniper called a eight years old and I have to say in my household. The th there is cross generational appeal for you. I've been following your work for a long time. My nine year old son knows who you are and is. Really enamored of the of the kind of work that you do so this seems like a good moment to ask you about roots and shoots and sort of what your messages to young people, but tell us about roots and shoots, and and and what it does. Well it. It began in Tanzania and nineteen ninety-one. And it was when twelve high school students came to see me in my house, and they came from eight different schools, and they were very concerned about all kinds of different things. Poaching Fox wasn't the government doing more street children with no homes. A wide range of problems that they felt needed solving so I told them to go and get their friends, and we had a big meeting, and that's when roots and shoots was born, and basically we decided that the main message was every individual makes a difference every day of Rian, individual as role to play in matters, that every group would choose three projects one to help. People want help animals when to help. Help the environment because everything in nature's interconnected, we parked over not separated from the natural world and some big problem today so anyway, what began twelve high school? Students is now in sixty five countries and growing fast, and it's got hundreds of thousands of members i. don't remember how many groups are as many groups. We don't even know about you know. We suddenly found a little group somewhere in the forests of Ecuador. Roots and shoots. We found out about the by accident. and. Changing the world that they literally these young people know that rolling up those leads taking action that planting trees, which is very important today that cleaning streams doing campaigns about. Single, use plastic and today we have members in kindergarten, and we have members in university and everything in between, and they are changing, while they are my greatest reason for hope. And I hope any child parent listening. We'll try and get involved because changes their lives, too. So. Let's go to Tanya. She's calling from Concord Mass Tanya. You're on the air. Jane Goodall! Thanks for the call. Go ahead! Thank you, Anthony. Thanks for your great hosting and Ms Goodall. It's It's a great honor to the listening to you and to be speaking with you. I wanted to point out that in terms of for more experimentation on chimps, year or so ago I was. At the conference at the Radcliffe Institute that's Harvard and there were some researchers from China who were showing slides. Of their experimentation on chimps in in in trying to find a cure for depression, and it involves crisper. Taking a gene modifications and it was very very sad to see the poor suffering chimp and the coordinator of its cage, just huddling over. It was a terrible sight and. and there was a push to get more US support to to get back into experimentation on chimpanzees precisely because of their. closeness to us and I. I just wanted to mention that and hear what you have to say. Thank you. Thank you Tanya Jane Goodall to what extent are his? That kind of research being conducted on chimps, and to what extent are you still concerned about that? Most monkeys now but. The occasional Jim. In Germany, for example to patents were just refused. Could Genetically Modifying Chimpanzee but we have routine shoot salute at China, the huge movement in China to protect animals. It's it's growing fast. many states now banned eating of dogs, and after the Kobe nineteen, the government was very quick to ban the a sale, the trafficking and the eating of wild animals. So it's changing. It takes time you know America for example, until recently was the second largest importer of ice in the world coming to China then China banned the importation of ivory. And these things just take time, but yes, we can try and fight poaching in. Africa but we also have to work on the demand. Because when money is involved when people can get rich by shooting a rhino and selling its horn, they going to go on doing it even if it's illegal, so that's where roots and shoots comes in and we just working working away on reducing the demand for wild animals and cruelty to domestic animals well Tanya. Thank you for that call one more call. Alex is calling from Walpole Massachusetts. Go ahead, Alex you're on the air with Jane Goodall? Thank you for the call. Thank you and I. It's it's an honor i. Agree with everything that's been said in terms of. How we can help. or progress in terms of the climate disruption and I just wondered. Jane. what you thought. The biggest impediment was to. Progress on climate disruption, and also maybe a personal kind of. question about what brings you joy. and. At that thanks! Okay well. festival, one very serious impediment is leaders in countries who deny climate change together. Latest in countries, who as in the US rule back environmental protection. Regulations. They try very hard to do that. You know there's me hoping they'll be a groundswell of people not wanting to go back to days pollution when Pepsi the first time in a big city they had the privilege of breathing, clean air, which should be a human right but while we have presidents and prime ministers and leaders who are dying to get back to business as usual and open up coal, mines and things like that. It's very very difficult, but we just must not give up. And what brings me joy well, it's being out in nature and. It doesn't have to be the forest chimpanzees. That's my. Most favorite, but somewhere out to nature preferably alone with a very close friend. And just feeling a part of it. And you know people associated with the natural one of our new see little children there in a beautiful place on there are birds, and there are butterflies and I saw two year old. An all he was doing was playing around on his on his dental cell phone, video games and things. This is tragic because it's been proved lose. Contact with nature is important psychological element in children. I glad you brought up how much you love being out in nature and in the forest, because at one point in that wonderful documentary, the hope you describe the feeling that you get as one you get in a cathedral. I I love that that analogy. Yes, It's it's really true, and there are some places in the forest when the trees ought show behead. It reminds me of some of those great cathedrals where the the such. In know whether you whether your religious or not, but the atmosphere, because so many hundreds of thousands of people have been in there. They've been praying may have been. In contact with what I call a great spiritual power. And that's the same for me in the forest. Let's go to Marcus who's calling from Cambridge Mass, Marcus. Go ahead! You're on the air. Thanks for the call. On. This is good. All I've been I've been a fan of your's ever since I was a GRUBS H. Your son Grubs Age and do the question is. The question is about zoos interaction with apes and zoos here in. BOSTON, we have the Franklin Park Zoo and how? My interaction was I'm a painter and do oak via guerilla was a painter and I brought my My pastels and oak came up and watched me paint and guerrilla. Actually punched me. In through the glass because I was filming him for, how do you feel about? People experiencing a bit of what you do with that kind of. Interaction and is is. Okay well, first of all you know this good Susan Bad, Zunes but I have to say that. During all my years, zoos have improved so much and the really good sues have wonderful exhibits, not some space, good animal groups. Keep assume understand them and what's really interesting. Is that during the pandemic when the zoos shutdown. They animals became deeply depressed because for them, the visitors of entertainment you know like television them. And it was specified eating to talk to people still working in the sues feeding the animals, and so on, say that they were really really impressed, so he were having to find ways to occupy the men. Cheer Them Up. So I know that many many people look into the is a chimp, gorilla, or elephant, or whatever it happens to be an that gets them, they're they're hooked for life. They understand they looking into the eyes of sentient being. What shouldn't be zoos? Elephants Dolphins Whales. Company will do because we'll need to run. You said there are good zoos and Badu's. What's an example of of a good zoo? Your favorite zoo? Well! In the US the San Diego Zoo is is is really good, has wonderful exhibits, and it also raises a lot of money for conservation of the animals out in the wild Get the chance to go and see the animals in the wild, which gives them a much better. Attitude when that looking up to the captive ones. So I. Think Sue's play a big role in in education and in conservation. You celebrated. You're eighty sixth birthday in April but in the documentary. The Hope you say that the kind of life you're living now is completely crazy. There are times when you think you cannot go on like this and and I think if I'm recalling correctly. You travel something like three hundred days a year. Dick Yeah. Go ahead, sorry. Oh I was just wondering. How do you find time to relax and unwind and I guess what keeps you going three hundred days a year. Well, thing is you know I'm being grounded? Since the beginning of the pandemic luckily was called when I was at home here in a I'm speaking to you from the house where I grew up in Bournemouth England on the south, coast. And own my things are here. My sister have. Here so my my a. It was a good place to be grounded. Are Funded I've had been so much busier during this time dive ever been in my life before with interviews like this and put costumes skype. Reading books to children. Read the shadow of Man. The first book I did which is now out on our website free being reading other books, children lots of emails and video messages to all the twenty four Jane. Goodall Institute's the Sankt naval needed cheering up, and it's been very tough because Ecofin I. Mean Gumby were terrified that it will reach the Chimpanzee National Park and surrounding areas with our gyms because they catch onto seizes. You have. You embrace this idea about hope and I want to ask you about this. Three of your books plus another set to release next year have hope in their titles. The documentary the National Geographic documentary about you is called the hope what keeps you. What makes you hopeful and I'd love to end on this note because there's so much going on right now from the pandemic. To climate degradation, which can really leave a person feeling despair about our planet, but you have hope and I'd love to hear what keeps you hopeful. What I? If will you hear all the time? Think Globally Act locally, and that's completely the wrong way round because quite honestly. I think everybody who thinks about the state of the planet globally will lose the they just. have any energy to do anything locally. They'll be so depressed but of the whole message of roots and shoots. If you start actually doing something to make a difference Ben, you suddenly feel you know while I am making a difference and you know that will run the world up with people making a difference, so as I said earlier, the young people are giving me the most home. I'm very passionate about that. Then the extrordinary intellectual pause you know we're now coming up with ways that we can live in greater harmony with the planet with thinking about ways we can live a lighter ecological footprint every day, which is going to make a difference. Let makes you feel better. and. then. There's the resilience of nature I described flying over gone a little tiny island furriest around by compete. Onto Hilson creeped about. Because people stop afternoon down and they realize no, while the. Jane Goodall let's leave it there on that hopeful note about the resilience of nature. Thank you so much for joining us today. It's been such a pleasure philly great. Brian to everybody. Jane Goodall I'm Anthony Brooks. This is on point.

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