Reflecting on the Tiny House Movement 10 Years Later with Andrew Odom #096
Our desire to build a tiny house created trailers manufactured for the sole purpose of of building. A tiny house like we did. We didn't even know where we're going to get get a trailer. We didn't know what the heck we're going to welcome to the tiny house lifestyle. podcast the show where you learn how to plan build and live the tiny lifestyle. I style I'm your host Ethan. And this is episode ninety six with Andrew. Odom Andrew is one of the original online tiny the houses who started sharing his building journey as it was happening all the way back in two thousand nine and two thousand ten. He inspired me while I was was building my tiny house both through his writing and also just by being a really friendly accessible person. Who is there to help answer questions while enter? Doesn't doesn't live tiny anymore. There's a lot to learn from his story and he has stayed involved in the tiny house. Movement through is ING Tiny House events and festivals and also working being as the managing editor of the tiny House magazine. I hope you stick around for my conversation with Andrew Odom but first I'd like to tell you about the sponsor for today's show a quick zip sheet company. We have reinvented just about out everything in designing our tiny homes but one area that we haven't gotten a handle on is making our beds the quick zip sheet company is the company has reinvented invented. Betting tiny house builders have come up with some of the most creative configurations for sleeping and it goes without saying that our beds are in tight spaces making sheets almost impossible to change and to get on fully without lifting the mattress we also have a limited storage space. Quick Zip has created a sheet that addresses all these. 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All right I'm here with with Andrew Odom. Ten years ago Andro burst onto the modern tiny house movement. Not even knowing it was a scene truth be told at the time. It wasn't but because of the efforts it's of he and countless others it has become one it has become one and he has remained at the forefront for much of the last decade including his current involvement as the managing editor of of Tiny House magazine. andro welcome to the show. Hey Man thank you so much. Thank you great to have you here. I feel like I think I asked you to be on the show like take a long time ago. Maybe one of the first episodes. And you're like now I'm Kinda just a behind the scenes guy like is and it's true you are or behind the scenes guy but you really are still really involved in the tiny house movement. Yeah I think that I think the I hate I. It's very difficult because I don't. I don't ever want to say that I have you know. inspired a bunch of people. or I'm kind of you know the impetus for people just taking it on you know from selves or that. I even talk. People have to do some of this stuff but I think it's kind of the role that I've end up ended up playing. Is that I am in the background but only because I'm not just you know I'm not on the center stage but it's hard to say I'm in the background because because they don't really play like a background role not like wallpaper not like wallpaper. Now I'm I I've even now I don't know how to answer that I mean I just do so much stuff I'm Kinda I kinda have my little fingers in everything somehow. Yeah well. Let's maybe we should remind because you know I know your story because I followed you on your belt I would say you were like a bit ahead of me on my build and and so your website tiny revolution dot. US was like it was one of my few lifelines of information that I could go to to see. What is someone else else doing in terms of building? They're tiny house. Diy and yet you know what challenges have they come across. How do they solve them? And you know you are always just an email email way. Really friendly always available. Try always appreciated that. But let's let's back up like when when did you. How did you hear about tiny any houses? Why did you decide to jump in and start there? Yeah so the story I you know I feel like yeah. I've told the story like a million times. Maybe a half told a million times in lock. The it always amazes me to find out how many people do not know. Oh how we started. Because I feel like I've just said it so many times and you know. The story has been documentaries have been written about in. It's it's been a newspaper so I'm always surprised that people don't know But the story really pretty simple. I mean You Know My wife and I've been married now for twelve years. And when we first got married we had collectively lived lived in nineteen day than like revenue rate countries. We had been both of us had been living berry scaled down I and in fact out of backpack for several years But we both grew up in the south and the college engine. You Know High School and college the whole American dream ethos so you know we went to school and we got good grades in school led to another school. We did well graduating that degrees and that led to getting a good job. Good job by the against you find a mate and then when you find a mate you get the starter house in the Star House. Leave the dog and the dog lead to a kid and the kid leaves to lead to pick and fence and before you know that all the trapping that you are successful in light and so when we got married we were coming off of a living kind of these adventures adventures in so we felt like the most natural step was the kind of at the time in this key. At the time we use the phrase settled down Time to kind of settle down and figure things out just a fast for real quick. We haven't I use the actively use the phrase Settled down in a long time. We we say anchor down because we're always ready for the next adventure and and we know that we have plenty of adventures left in life even though we're kind of stationary right now with our daughter and with my job and all that we know that ultimately it's going to end end up in another adventure I in this itself of an event so We got married and I was working a dead end job. Minute was a dead end job because the owner of the company told me you know the the dead in John's right going nowhere so I was well aware pat and I and my wife was working part time at the junior college and we just really didn't have the resources to kind of move into that American dream but we went kinda how shopping anyway. We found this cute little bungalow in town and the pricing be right. You know. In retrospect of the Pizza Joe the truth But we found it and we went to You know lender and talk to them and they what we get back to you in about two days so they did. They came back. Oh my gosh. She came back to the astronomical number. I was like okay. Okay Daddy's GONNA provide. I was stoked I mean I was like man. They know something about me. I don't know so they were offering to give you a ton of money. Oh man it was ridiculous I mean I knew so little about financing. It just seemed like they were by won the lottery. You know and so I looked to my I life who has ordered her fears been counting though I told her and I was like you know this is going to happen. It's Jassem we're GONNA get half whatever and she will let me think about it and In she did prevent day or two inch came back to me and she said well. I've got good news and I've I've got bad news and I said well what's the good news. He said we can get the house and I was like us. We're going to get the houses awesome you know. I'm going to be able to get a house house for my wife and I and you know all that sort of thing and I sent somewhat the bad news and she said well. The bad news is that we're not going to be able to have electricity or water. We're going to have to sell the cars. We've probably won't eat very much. And I was like what. And she said we just we can. It's impossible missile system. We'll be paying for this house for the next like sixty year and so really just snapped me into at this reality and so we started thanking. You know we're gonNA find some different in kind of the same time we realized you know wasn't beyond kind of justice. This very traditional state of mind wasn't all that exciting to think about getting the House Austin a picket fence and all that so we started looking all over the place man. We looked at RV's with the cabins Chateau's Lake houses we looked at igloos. We looked at your. We looked at living on Mars. I mean we've looked at everything and one day we just increase stumbled upon This dude by the name of J Schaefer that was rolling this little shack around the US. And we're like the forty queue. You know like look like a little house like a tiny little house and he seems to be happy. You got everything in it and it looks simple enough up to bill In so we decided right there in the next day I was trying to tool around again again and using this new phrase tiny house and that's when I came across tiny house blog written by Kim ripple and In so my wife and I decided this is definitely what we WANNA do. We're going to build one of these tiny houses and We we were living with my parents at the time and so you know with the next night we were all having supper and I just kind of announced guess what among the we're we're going to build a tiny house and you have to know my parents. Then they're saying their reactions by and that was that that that as anti climactic is that is. That was the beginning. What year was this? Two thousand nine two thousand nine okay. Okay so we're like way before any reality. TV shows your early man. That's that's that's early on so What I was saying is our desire to build? A tiny house dated like trailers manufacturer actor for the sole purpose of of building a tiny house. We didn't we didn't even know where we're going to get a trailer from what the heck we're GonNa do so for some reason I thought in your first that you I did a fifth wheel or was that after your tiny house that was actor. We went backwards. We did the impossible commended. The easy right so so tell me about your first. The tiny house that you built did it have a name. What was the size of it without doubted it had a name we call it? Tiny House. it was interesting so one of the things we decided very early on was not the size of it and not how much square footage we would have. and not even the design. Our first consideration ration- was we wanted to build a debt free. We weren't going to borrow any money. Take any money use credit cards. We were going to build it Hash on the bear and and so our entire build was based around the south. That that we're going to build cash on the barrel which fast-forward Ethan I gotta be honest with you and all your listener. It floors me that people are willing to like take an eighty thousand dollar loan out today to buy tiny how I mean floors I just I. I can't even wrap my head around it because we had committed to only working within our means. Now that means it took because you know about a year and three quarter to build the tiny house In force that brought in some other issues but the fact of the matter is is when all was said and done and we moved in. We didn't know penny worth. It was truly our. How got free? Nobody nobody could tell us anything. It was our so When we started trying to figure out how we're going to do this we knew we needed a trailer for and so we thought well? Where do you get a trailer from so we thought well what else is on trailer? And that's when we started thinking about campers mobile homes and stuff like that and one day my wife was looking on craigslist online and She came across this person's selling a Thirty foot long Shaath a travel trailer except the travel trailer had been removed but really was just a trailer with some leftover aluminum installation on top of it and the price was right. It was like five hundred bucks and So we followed that lead. We looked at it and and when we got there we you know kind of specked it out and looked at the integrity of the bill. What the weight? I had already done a little research to find out what the original weight of of the travel trailer was kind of what I was looking at. And it just seemed right and to be honest with you when we got to the guy that was selling it He and I were kind of talking any asked me if I wanted to step into rather hot outside and so I did when I went in I saw that he didn't have any power in his wife and hid. Were sitting on the floor. They didn't have any furniture and S He was talking I found out that he was a alignment electrical linemen and he'd been laid off and he couldn't find work for about fourteen months and This was the last thing he had to sell. enfold everything else and we had budgeted like seven hundred fifty dollars for trailer and you know he was asking five hundred and that really in my opinion started off our project in just allowed our bill be blessed in so many ways because we gave the dude the whole seven hundred fifty and he would personally didn't want to take it and we're like Nope nope this is what we we. He came to spend on this trailer. And this is what we're going to leave you with and So we did. We left her budget. There we pick the trailer home and MS started it. That that's part of the bill and so at that point we knew we needed four wall and from those four walls. We started designing out fully. And there weren't that many houses at the time bottle after so what online. Wow so what did you. How did you go about the design process with so little to go on? Well I knew I didn't WANNA law. We have been to law and I knew you ended WANNA law because I didn't want to deal with the ladder and all that sort of stuff so I decided you know it'd be best to single level anyhow. There's just two of us we can make this happen and so really we thought about okay. This is just like building shed. We're GONNA put four walls. Make sure they're structurally sound. We're GONNA build it on the trailer using that as the foundation. So we've got to figure out how to keep it on a trailer and then we're going to put a roof on it and that's it and so that's what we did. We literally really built a shed on top of a trailer that was fastened to the trailer. Using what now. Trailer manufacturer Weld on credit abroad for. Except we didn't. We didn't know what we're doing. We just kinda played it by ear and started piecing it together like that Nice. Well I I feel like I would be remiss if if our listeners just went forward with like wow andrew trailer for seven hundred fifty bucks and that was a great deal you famously. I use you as an example of why you might WanNa rethink using. I used trailer. You could tell tell us a little bit about kind of what you ended up having to do to the trailer to get God. Be Ready to build on worst decision in the world if anyone's listening to podcasts and you're thinking about using a trailer that was for something else at some point stop now stop What didn't we do Ethan? I mean we started out by taking the wheels and the axles off. We replaced the leaf springs. Replace the axles. We sandblasted the trailer. We prime the trailer. We welded eldest on support brackets. We welded on the threaded rods. We've ain't we ran wire. We put a new hitch on it. I mean gene. Did I leave out any part of manufacturing a trailer because that's basically what we did. I don't think he did. So what was what was your ultimate cost and and time sunken. Do you remember. Thankfully my dad had all the welding equipment thankfully my cousin as a welder and thankfully my wife was more than happy to do the sandblasting so It wasn't a whole lot of cost. We had a lot out of the material because my parents have farms. So you know whenever you live in a rural situation like that you always have piles of scrap stuff everywhere so We really didn't have to buy anything we had to buy. threaded rods of course And we had to buy four cases of spray paint between primer and and and high-temperature black. We ended up by four cases of Spray spray-paint though I think we've probably spent maybe an extra two hundred dollars all right so not a ton of money but just many many hours. Oh Oh gosh like three solid weeks OEI well it it was. I'm glad that you went through it so other people I didn't have to and you you did a nice job documenting. I remember reading about what you're going through and it was one of the things that really tip me over to be like no I'm going to spend and the money. I'm going to buy a new trailer. Oh yeah man. The project became less about building a house and more about building every other things like building a trailer Miller build a wall. How to keep your wall to stay in place how to you know? I mean just all sorts of how to's their most people take for granted when they think about. Oh I'm going to build my own house man. There are so many things like we had to figure out. I Yeah I remember having long conversations about the plumbing and the electrical thinking especially the plumbing like a re run the plumbing underneath of the trailer if so how are we going to see you know temperature control that or we're going to run it through the walls or how is that going to work. So you know that was a big consideration Asian and You know just all of those kind of things were We're the things we hadn't anticipated. That came up as as we went along for sure. And you know I think this is a kind of a good segue into the fact. That's how tiny on revolution came to be is because when we were researching there was only two or three sites on on all the worldwide in web talking about tiny houses and they weren't even really talking about a more or less they were just on the thing you know we're GonNa do this and they would take it kind of pictures every three or four week in. I thought you know if people are going to do this. They need to know what they're looking at. And so I started documenting everything and because I'm a marketer professionally. I felt like it was a great way to market what we were doing. And maybe even get some companies involved with building tiny houses because they may want to jump into the scene but they don't know how and so that's how tiny revolution came to be. It really started out as the blog so that our family and friends in fact that we were praised if they thought we were her Inches turned into day after day. Of How to's and pictures and and fitting one you know doesn't I don't believe Kinda the struggles. We went through it very much still online. We leave it up as an archive site in God. Tom I don't know eight or nine years worth of material rolling right and that's tiny revolution dot. US That's right. So I WANNA kind of fast forward a bit and And ask you about tiny House magazine Lynch you know. We've had Kent Griswald who is the senior editor and it's kind of his is baby on the show. I've written some articles for it. You've written a ton for it. What you know of all all the things that exist online in the tiny house world what? What about tiny House magazine like keeps you you know why? Why is that though the thing that you kind of stay connected to you know? The thing is is in the magazines all about authentic people in authentic stories. There's no editing there's no slick camerawork there's no you know stylized photos. There's none of that is just real people telling their real stories and not just stories about. Hey we decided to go tiny but how to's and things about tiny life like the people who live in tiny houses for years and now they're starting to garden and so they're taking that approach to gardening and how businesses propped up in tiny houses. And so it really is just part of what I do as the managing editor is I find people that won't contribute to the magazine and tell their story. Sorry and and that did I kind of guide them. But then that's it we don't have. We have a grammar editor. But we don't have a content content editor because we can't and I both really believe in the authenticity of the story and the storyteller and because of that I'd just keep coming back to it because I'm so fascinated by what continues to move people in this direction that's awesome. Yeah and it's you know. It's written in by tiny houses for four tiny houses or potential tiny Hauser's best. It's probably the only magazine where you can and see the letters T. H. O.. W. and not have to put for instance what it actually stands for exactly. Do you have any favorite stories that you've published in the magazine like of all time or even just recent ones that have stood out for you. Yeah we'll you know. Let me just say that. We're we're working on issue eighty six now which for the tiny house. The modern tiny house movement is probably I mean just unheard of eighty addict monthly magazines of tiny house right. That's like over seven years. It is exactly and kit. I've been together for six of them so we've been putting this out every month her for years and one of my most favorite stories we just published about three or four months ago in that How campfire tiny houses campfire survivor driver? Tiny houses came to be you know. The Campfire think happened About a year ago. Incredible loss of life loss of home. All that sort sort of stuff in this This wonderful woman. You know just felt like she was called to build these tiny houses for these survivors Her name is Eliza and The interesting part of the story and the part that really choked me up. She'd never built anything in her life. Lethem ever and She just felt like well for her to tell the story she felt like God was telling her. This is what I want you to do. Is what I created you to do in the past year. They've built twelve tiny houses for Campfire survivors. And they literally we have given them away. Each one has been paid for by various people and entities and all of that sort of stuff and they've given them away in they're beautiful little tiny houses and she's just an incredible person so that that story is one of the most reason that we've published that has really had an impact actor Because it speaks highly of of people doing things so far outside of their comfort zone and the fact that she did it in the Piney any house world is is really amazing. Yeah I agree. She is amazing and I will say When this does come out I will have already put out an an interview with her? That'll be episode ninety five so anyone listening can go back in here. Her talent as well. Yeah for sure and then I think I early on when the school how things started happening early on I was able to talk to several schools but I think probably Dare Kobe of through our veer was one one of the people I enjoyed working with in his story because he was a personal finance. The're before they decided to just kind of chuck it all in and buy a bus and travel. He had he had been helping. People establish well in stab wish you know their their personal personal asset. In the entire time he was doing that he really was losing time with his wife and time with his daughter and and was not getting anywhere really himself financially and inserted. You know to know that someone that is just as gifted as as he and his wife are just felt like there was something more for them here in their stores really cool and being able to publish that and let other share and that that was cool and then going way way back I think probably the coolest story was. I've always been fascinated by the trucking industry and so I got to work with a company. That does these deluxe queens sleeper cab in so to see what they're able build in these tractor in the front end of the tractor trailer rig were basically. They have a traditional tractor trailer. Rig and then they add like a twenty foot camper onto it it's amazing I'm talking about like granite counter chops and led inset life and. It's just amazing so that was really cool. That does sound really cool. What what's the name of that company? Gosh I wish I I can't remember of my head I would have to Oh Gosh that's fine. If view if you think of it shoot me an email put in the show notes. Yeah I gotta be honest with him. I'm getting old and so can't remember these things it remember now it's Legacy gap food is legacy sleepers. Okay yeah legacy sleeper. That's right so You're not living tiny anymore. Although I would say that the the home that that you do live in is tiny compared to most you know the average American home Did you sell your tiny house or did you do you. I still have it. Yes so we lived in our tiny house on wheels for about two and a half years and then we decided that's when we decided we were GONNA go. I was working for myself at the time. And so We felt like we. We really had a desire to keep traveling and We we weren't ready to as I said earlier settled down so we sold the tiny house wheels to a couple that it eight now lives in Myrtle beach South Carolina still intact. Mind you amazing. So we sold it to them and we bought a more traditional travel title trailer. Emily promptly kind of refurbished that we didn't gut it but we definitely stripped it and and refurbished to wear match to our our families personality and we lived in that on the road for a little over two years and then strangely China we were in New Mexico in my wife's Mentor WHO's also real estate agent. She sent this link this little homestead and backward from and we kind of looked at it and the long story short About three days later we we made an offer on it and we ended up buying it without walking into it before it was time to close on it. And and so. That's where we're now we're still living there it's it's a little over nine hundred square feet heated where feet and then we have some storage space on it so so it topped out total at just under twelve hundred square feet. There's three of us my wife and our daughter and It's perfect perfect for about two acres of land and So we have a a barn and we have some gardens and stuff like that and it's perfect perfect. I mean the funny thing about Ethan and I think other tiny house families will tell you this because our daughter was born into a tiny house she lived in tiny space for the first five years. Where live the three of us? Even though we have all that room we find ourselves occupying pretty much the same like hundred hundred square feet together all the time. Yeah I mean we we sit together. We eat together. We're in the kitchen together. Komo wife's cooking unusually you know standing there leaning against the the countertop or something and my daughter is hanging out at the tables were we're we're always. We have an intimacy in our family because of our experience together that keeps the TV turned off keep interruptions out and we have great conversation. And that's that's a really sweet benefit of tiny house living that you know it. It's a a fairly common story that you know. A couple builds a tiny house and then you know when a baby comes along they kind of move on from it but it sounds like there are some nice benefits if you can hang on a bit. And we'll lynn tiny as a as a family of more than just to absolutely I also. Oh you know you. You've also been involved in organizing to festivals to tiny house festivals Zak. Yeah so so for for the sake of of your readers will give you the rundown because I don't know why I remember this stuff I do but So tiny the revolution and my wife and I in more expensively nee we have Been in sixteen newspapers. We've been in three movies. We've been in four magazine. We last I checked there. Were nine hundred. Sixteen pinterest board. That included photos are which is ridiculous But there's a reason why because we're the first first tiny house to build a gourmet kitchen in our tiny house. We have full size of the finances and all that stuff so it was very unusual thing So back to back to what I was saying I have written a university. Course that was published on The history of the modern tiny house movement in how. It's affected by arched post-war to our texture we have hosted two festivals But I've been I have run seven festivals and consulted on three other festivals. And and then. Here's probably probably the thing that makes me a gosh. What if I had all that time back? I've written Six Thousand Rosen two hundred and let's see as of last week two hundred ninety six articles on tiny ninety houses in the world revolving around tiny house. Six thousand so it's not all those are credited to me. I've done a lot of ghosts riding for companies and for other folks but it's just it's just interesting to me. You know it goes beyond the house it goes beyond movement. It goes beyond the statement. It really boils down to me this innate desire to find home no matter where you are no matter. How long are there? No matter who you're with bat innate desire that human beings have to find own in so that's what I always find inspiration. That's great well. One thing that I really like to ask all of my guests is what are two or three resources that helped you you while you were building your tiny house that you'd like to share with our readers and I might add to that since you did it so early and there were so a few resources if someone were to come to you today and say I want a diy build my own tiny house where where would you send them. what what would you recommend that they do. Well I can tell you when we were building ours. One of probably the primary resource that I couldn't have done it without. How is my dad? And it's not because he built any particular thing or that he guided us through it but just that when I kept talking about tiny houses and building them in emperor you know for months was just eaten up with the topic Tippett. He never got bored. He always listened to me and he always treated my thoughts with such respect and so for me that was instrumental because because it always motivated me to keep going no matter how bizarre things The second thing is probably Anelka I would say that was the resource that With just came in handy all the time all the time and not just for building building things sometimes. It came in handy because I was so frustrated. I would just take a piece of scrap wood and just lay it out and then the the third thing would definitely be tiny house blog. I mean I've told Kent several times if it hadn't been for him writing about cabins very early on moving into the tiny house world. I I don't know if I would have found what I needed to keep going that inspiration to keep trying to build something to make something. I think there were a couple of times where you know. We had to sit for weeks with doing nothing on the house because we didn't have money to and I got not frustrated frustrated but I just thought. Why don't we do this? Why don't we just buy that other? How but Through his blogs. You know I would D- These these images my that's why that's why we didn't because we are pursuing something more than just a house mm-hmm so those are three resources. That were you know kind of invaluable to me and I I would keep those three resources now movie if I were to do it all again tomorrow. Now as far as you know phrase the other question for me again so to make picture answer correctly if somebody was you know came to you and said I want to build a tiny house myself. I WANNA. Diy this today you know. Where would you send them? Who would you send them to to to get the info that they that they need I would tell them two probably. It's hard because there's a couple of answers the first one is it kind of my immediate reaction is if the if the good and the bad all the same time I would tell them to lay off the youtube for awhile like. Don't watch you two for a while while you you marinate. This thought because Youtube is sinister. Sometimes it is so easy to edit a video and make it look like the easiest process. That's in the world and it's not it's just not never building anything is a you know this. It's never easy process. I mean things come up and and you know how. `Bout these days. I don't know if you remember this but I remember once. I had a sinus infection while we were the building and I couldn't do anything like a week and it just it. It just killed momentum for like a mom because I felt like I was so behind I just couldn't get back in gear and You know had identity on Youtube I would have just edited that month out you you know and so I I really kind of want people to know of it and safety safety. That's what I want. People to safety safety sometimes. DIY is not the best option. Because you have to remember that you're putting your life in your loved one's life in in his home when Deng in it's not a safe structure you're putting everyone at risk in especially if you were GonNa tow it down the road anyone anyone you you're driving around is at risk if you don't have a state structure that's a really great point is there. Is there anybody that you know that that writes about this or that you know that where. Where can you go to learn about safety because yeah so I would definitely Read up on Chris Shop Tiny industrial he writes a lot about billions. They foam and what it means to tow your home in understanding understanding more about about what it takes to ability Togo home. He's got a really good perspective on and and and he doesn't want his work so I find that keeps a great resource to have when talking about safety of it all nice. Well thanks for that recommendation. Yeah for sure Andrew Odom thank you so much for for being on the show today. I really appreciate it. Yeah absolutely it's always fun because because you know we tend to as life moves on we tend to forget the little nuances of all the stages. We've been through and it's easy for me to take take for granted kind of my role in the modern tiny house movement. Because it's me so I kind of forget that we were there so early in that there could potentially be hundreds of people who were inspired by what we did and So it's always nice to remember that that you were blessed enough to have at that time where you could help. People grow in. Learn in in sometimes. Just be entertained by what you did. Thank you so much to Andrew Odem for being a guest on the show you can find the show notes from today's episode including links to Andrews website photos of his tiny house house and links to his books and other resources at the tiny house dot net slash zero nine six again. That's the tiny house dot net slash zero zero nine six also. Thank you so much to the Quick Zip Sheet Company for sponsoring our show. Don't forget to head over to quick. Zip She dot com and and save fifteen percent with the coupon code. T H L P fifteen again. That's quick ZIP. Sheet Dot Com coupon code. T H L P fifteen. Well that's all for this week. I'm your host Ethan Waldman and I'll be back next week with another episode of the tiny house lifestyle podcast.