Making John Wick: Chapter 3Parabellum With Chad Stahelski, and Watching It With Shea Serrano | The Big Picture
Hey, it's Liz Kelly, welcome to the ringer podcast network before you get to the show, make sure you check out the ringer dot com for our extensive NBA playoff coverage leading up to the NBA finals. Also look out for a twenty nineteen NBA draft guide, which now features fifty of Kevin O'Connor scouting reports. The draft guide has a first-round mock draft big board rankings from our draft experts like Jonathan Turks Danny Chow, and much more to come leading up to the draft itself on June twentieth. Once again, check out the ringers twenty nineteen NBA draft guide, and all of our NBA coverage over on the ringer dot com. But if I told you again, pitched this to you in simple sentences ex assassin loses wife of natural causes no affected. Bad guys kills eighty people because of puppy dies. I mean, we got kicked out every room in Hollywood knows wanted to make them movie. I'm Shawn fantasy editor in chief of the ringer. And this is the big picture a conversation show about ask kicking action stars were here today, of course, to talk about the new movie, the only movie the biggest movie here at the ringer, John wick three also in action, packed episode of this show. I, I'm going to talk to the director and the sort of creative overlord of the John wick universe. Chad's to Helsinki. Chad is a longtime stuntman stunt coordinator, stunt choreographer. And now filmmaker this is his third film all three are John wick films. It is definitely the biggest it is definitely the craziest. It's an incredibly fun movie. It's also an intense film really fun to talk to chat about how they did all the things that they did, and how he got to wear he isn't Hollywood. And then immediately after that. If you've seen the movie, I would recommend listening to the second half of this show, which is a conversation with our pal shea Serrano shea, of course, hosting a podcast about the John wick universe called with pencil, and he had a lot of deep thoughts about J w three was really fun to chat with shea. So now without further ado. Let's go. Right to my conversation with director chats to Helsinki. Delayed to be joined by CHAD'S the hausky the director in the Lord of our favorite franchise here at the ringer. John wick. Chad, thanks for being here. Course. Thank you for asking Chad. I wanna know a lot about the franchise of course, but I'm very interested in you as a filmmaker. And how you got started in film, obviously, you were twelve noon that you were stunt coordinator stunt man over the years. But specifically as a kid that, you know, you were going to get involved in the movie industry. No, I'm from Palmer, Massachusetts, which I think, probably has more cows than people. It's in western Massachusetts, you know, discrepant a small town, always love movies since his Saturday afternoon. Sunday afternoon. My mom and dad, both worked so Sunday afternoon was family time to watch the old the equivalent of Turner classic movies with the old bonds, and, you know, bridge over River Kwai Lawrence of Arabia, some of the classics, and always, like movies. Really? But you never everything you're going to be in movies. I remember seeing the Burt Reynolds movie Hooper when I was like. Ten I think, which is I guess a inadequate way to date myself. But yeah, then end up going to college at UC of the university of southern California and in the dorms ended up rooming with a guy from San Diego, who is actually a film school student. And when we were discussing I kind of joke with them like that's not that's bullshit, measure, that doesn't exist. I didn't know you could major movies and he's like, yeah. Film school man. So I started hanging out with him and his friends and kinda got appreciate for it. And I monitor bunch of his classes, I took a bunch of film appreciation film history, the typical stuff that a film student goes through. And I, I really kinda got into it. I thought it was really, really cool. And I'd always liked live performances, whether they be, you know, martial arts performance a stub stunt performance sport performance were theatrical before. So I kinda got into theater and dance in just kind of not doing them, obviously. But just just watching them in kind of appreciating it in. That's always kinda stuck with me were you doing? Martial, Arthur, anything like that as a kid growing up. And so is like ten. Then I saw Bruce Lee movie is like a mom and dad. I'd like to do that. I wasn't very good with balls, planning play basketball baseball football. I just wasn't quite the team sport guys. So I did. You know, dad was in a motorcycle. So I got my first dirt bike, when I was, like tan, I saw, Bruce Lee movie. So I wanted to karate my dad was on the fire department with the guy that did judo again, Ainley McDonald who was. Quite good at the sport. He was nationally ranked and, you know, you're in the g the pyjama like things, so dad figured ones as good as the next judo karate confused all the same. So he stuck with that. And that's a that was kinda my indoctrination into martial arts, and I've been pretty much hardcore into it ever since you mentioned Hooper, which makes me think of Burt Reynolds, and how Needham the legacy of the stuntman making this transition so amidst that how do you actually get involved in the industry? Doing this work after monitoring some film close courses in growing an appreciation for lots of bad career choices, I would assume on a couple bad life choices. No. Honestly, I got out of college, I was studying a lot of different shots at a place called the Antezana academy with his very famous instructor called. Dannon. Asano Annette's remember this is before I phones before computers before the internet was popular anything like that. So, like, you know, it was word of mouth. And if you wanted to go see somebody, you had to travel the distance, get the plane ticket, hitchhike, you over there. So, by the time I got to California got this guy's place. Marina del Rey known heard of multi, yet, which is Thai. Boxing, her bucks from vodka or Filipino arts, colonists sicker on C lot, that was made pop in the raid, all these different martial arts. No one really heard of them, what mainstream role taught at this place by incredibly efficient, people from around the world was like a college of martial arts, and that's where I ended up seducing or bullshitting, my way into when I was still sixteen started studying there in through that, I met a lot of stunt men were in the industry that all were going there for the added advantage of what was taught there and made some connections, and I ended up competing amateur level in kickboxing, and I got I got watched the I didn't exhibition bout end to, to people in the audience for stunt coordinators at the time. And again, yet, remember, this is even pre some of the sports nigger stuff where martial arts fights, didn't exist in big budget, film, it hadn't hit highway no-one who Jackie Chan, was that was his little secret. We all had that we'd see. You know, you pay four dollars to go see in the theater in Santa Monica, or something, but, like martial arts weren't mainstream. So, you know, they're in the low budget action realm even before, Steven Seagal was known, and they need to guys do it because it wasn't a popular thing, if you're a driver, or cowboy, your horse guy, those popular activities in stunts, but martial arts was very rare, especially I'm six feet. Six one. So I had a body type that wasn't really into the acrobatic martial art thing. So I just kinda fit a Bill, then they asked me after the bout. Hey, would you like to be in this movie, and it was a Kris Kristofferson Cathy long who was a female kick box at the time, directed by Albert Pune had done a lot of the early nemesis movie cyborg helped discover von dumb way back when so I started doing a bunch of movies for him. Little million dollar movies were you thinking when you were doing this really? This is the pathway to something bigger, the judges thinking, like wow. They pay better than actually getting punched in the face. So like, you know for like the time when we were competing, you know, after I turned pro we'd fight in you'd get maybe. If you get fifteen hundred dollars for ten weeks of training in Schick Adia, then he divided it with your trainer in your sparring partners. You know you're pulling in two fifty to three hundred dollars a fight. You know you work in stunts, I think the sag we've get that time was like fourteen hundred or something like that. And you didn't get punched in the face. You do. It was just that is give me a chance. There's something more. I wanted out of it when you do practical martial arts, I love marshawn L of all I love the ones that people may think are inefficient, or don't work or what streetfight vital and what, you know, I it's like arguing over who would win. Godzilla King Kong kung FU versus you have see versus jujitsu. I really just I didn't really care about that. I just like the idea of all Mars to move my body. I like the, the cultural thing I like the aesthetics of it. And, you know, when you compete you gotta hold true to those four or five things at work. Right. Your training is very, very different. So you focus less and less about overall learning different martial arts is focusing on the things that will get you through the next bow, and hopefully, win and pay your rent. Film. I realized, wow. This thing about choir fee is like, now, I get it because huge Asian cinema fan. Like, well, I can use everything I know I can jump from judo to kick boxing, to compute a chronic, and he's all these different things that can be sourcing guns. And the creative experience of choreographing was very enticing to me, it was refund, and it gave me an outlet to do all the things that normally as a competitor, I wouldn't have pursued and that was the main appeal. When did that develop your ability to start choreographing fights as opposed to just participating in somebody else's playing? You know, when you anybody that's where you have to anything from dance to martial arts to two car sequences to overall camera, orchestrate, y'all. We start the sheriff is always the same kind of process. It starts with imitation. You copy a movie that you saw you copy a Jackie Chan fight, you copy of Bruce leaf I you know, you copy a dance routine that you've seen you copy what you know, and then you get into self expressionism of, like, I'm gonna do it my way, I'm going to create my own style. I'm going to do this, then it becomes a blend of the two, then he kind of transcend all that. And you start dealing with story and character and. Creating both of those through motion. And then, you know, for film, we have a third dimension, which is camera. You know, I've always enjoyed training, people in working, you know, being hands on and, and doing perspective changes from performer to director from poorer director, and I think that not only is fun. But it's just something I felt natural doing so in answer your question, you know, as a stunt performer, I saw these guys in motorcycles car. It just it seemed like there was more out there than just again. I, I love kicking people in the head. It's awesome. It just there, I wanted to do more stuff, and, you know, film, I don't know. There's something magical know. It's like everything. Everybody's falls in love with film. You know, everybody wants to be a little part of it, and create some, but it was more about the behind the scenes that I really fell in love with I saw what the choreographer is that the stunt team was doing when I did my first couple of jobs. I was like, I think that's what I wanna do. I'm going to be that guy. And I'd, I'd be happy to be that guy. That'd be great and you start doing it. You realize you start. Watching somebody's director in some of the editors and some of the choices made that we could do a great job choreographing. We train the cast and they do a great job. And then it wouldn't be shot. Right. Or it wouldn't be edited. Right. Or they just started gave us time 'cause they weren't really getting it. So that's why don't I start editing? So at the time me and my MAC 2ci with, like half a gig of, of ram at the time would final cut pro the program for reading I version. So you do like a whole ten seconds of video. I hold on your heart, and I started playing around with editing. Would you would you be ending brawl in my great grandmother at the time for Christmas? Present gave me an old video camera. It was literally the size of a suitcase, I think back in the day that actually held a full VHS cassette. So we go shoot things we literally do the VCR VCR thing than we've learned to input it into the computer play and, you know, fucking horrible suck and you start learning then I took a bunch of still photography classes, just stuff you, you start. I've always liked art love museums. Like, honestly you look at a John. Film, if it's in that movie, it's something I love. That's why you see so much Carvalho art here, classical music, you hear wacky things you see horses cars things like you'll see lights in architectural set pieces that shouldn't exist. You'll see mythological references to Greek mythology into, you know, Asian opera Chinese opera. And then you'll see, you know, the color palettes, and you'll see all these wacky references to Latin or different languages of the subtitles. So the things there's grew up with and loved, and Al kinda, I think I love some pretty nerdy stuff. And you always want to kind of bring that out a little bit. This convergence is what makes the franchise in the film so good. I mean, that's definitely what I wanna talk to you about. I think so. And if you knew the rest of the people involved like the little creative circle that we have there, especially mysteries. I think he's equally as, as odd with mainstream aesthetics is I am. So, you know, the process for us is we sit down just referenda shit. We love and we tack it up on a big wall. And then we start writing a story. Around it before we go too far into John wick. I'm just curious. Was it difficult for you to then make that transition from stuntman to choreographer up unchain creatively? No. But just sort of tax business. It's hard. Yeah. I would say, logistically, I mean, if you can it's like any profession. Okay, we're sitting here in this room. If you wanna own your radio station, I'm sure you could do it. Do you wanna take that responsibility? Do you want to have that kind of shit on your shoulders every single day? You know, you go for former that you told to do something to, you know, major corporal, you know, I'm sorry, major Colonel that, you know, you taking responsibility, but you still answering somebody or you just want to fuck, and I want to run the whole show when you're choreographer, do you have to or coordinator, do you have to have a team working under? Yeah. Like, you know, you Bob Fosse, great grandfather dancer director, you know, quarter fy is, you know, fifty percent. Conception from Quaker. And the other fifty percent is finding people more talented. More crazy than you are to pull it off. So, yeah, I mean, I, I have some cool ideas and funky ideas, but I can't do them. Like, I'm not the guy I gotta go find a team to pull him off. And when we say that it's not like just at the Andrew thing that you need dance. I need my stunt team. I gotta train my cast. So I figured it out there and train the cast, you know, it's not like I have this chorus line of expert Broadway dancers. I gotta go get cast that may or may not be my choice that I have to try to get to the level that can hang with my stunt team. What do you do when you're working on a film, and you realize someone's not up to the task like particularly actor? That's not an option like it's may not be, you know, I use the Star Trek reference sits like her bashing Beirut. They're kinda thing. You know, if you can't answer a question change a question the answer. So if the caz, member isn't up to par with something else, you've got to change something else. So if you quit you're having this huge sword Bettini can't swing sort, you'd better, come up with some funny, gag. You know, we always use the Indiana Jones thing is, you know, if you run the problems, that's not gonna change pull the gun la- gun do the thing changed, queer your feet, you know, come up with a comedy stick being. A nice long fight isn't always the answer. We use long fights to get to the gag, you know, if you watch John wick three or John Ritter UC will sometimes we'll go more than you think. We should just get the line at the end that makes it feel like okay that's why they did it, it wasn't just a show of Mars. Sometimes it'd be one new was there, one significant film that you worked on the kind of foot. The switch for you realizing that you could either be as stunt coordinator, choreographer kinda took you up to the next level L. Yeah. I matrix working with which houses in you'll being of course, arguably, one of the greatest choreographer marshawn query, first of all time. Plus, you know, I mean that's cattle and I and Laurence Fishburne's and, you know, my Dave leeches that's our unifying factor. We've all been through the which hausky school of filmmaking, which is difficult and exhilarating titillating and stressful. I I've never worked with a film a group of filmmakers at bring out who you are quicker and I'm very thankful for that people in the general public before that film came out, I think we're a little dubious or confused. About it when you guys were making it. Did you know what you had your hands on? I didn't come in at the beginning Kanoo when he signed up for had some neck issues Adiga through next surgery. So they had to postpone some of the action and candidate already training quite a bit for the movie already started filming and they needed, or it became clear that for some of the stunt work, and we'll go over what stunts would action is the way it worked out. They needed a stunt double that was going to take a lot of impacts could overlap some of the, the more arduous of the, the martial arts stuff. So I did not dish in actually turned the job down twice because it didn't fit with my schedule. The work schedule had anyways long story short. I ended up taking the job off. You months later, I got the script literally it was, it was not an easy read as you can imagine trying to describe what we all now it and take for granted as the magic of the matrix, but it was a is a thick read very cerebral. And it talked about the fights and us again. This is it sounds cool. But like it's a Sifi phil- philosophical piece within two weeks of landing in Sydney, Australia, and starting the training. I remember calling my when my best friends back at the time ago. Yeah, this is going to be different cut to a year later when we saw the premiere in Westwood California, like, yeah. Alicia. It was a trip. It was a trip. But no one expected even even when we're working on, we all knew it was going to be special just because of what they are doing. What was asked of us and obviously being sentenced sentencing come together. But no one, I don't think any of the crew, including myself could guess what? The final product was going to be did being associated with it, specifically impact your career in a big way. Yeah. Impacts me as a filmmaker for certain I could talk volumes on the which housekeepers and, and the level of genius. Say genius commitment creativity the, the depth that they go into every single department with the, the amount of detail. The. And I mean this in the best of ways just the psychology behind him is as leaders in his directors to pull what they need to do on the crew into communicate their, their creativity to get it out of the, their mazing people. When did you realize that you wanted to do, what they specifically we're doing, honestly, it's always in the back of your head? But it's I just I kinda fucked myself a little bit. I worked I worked a lot in the beginning of my career with some great filmmakers, some really great filmmakers. And so, when you, you know, if I had worked with really shitty filmmakers, I fuck can do that. When you work with some of the best at the time I mean, some I mean these aren't just regular shows. I mean, you know, I worked on the matrixes you know, I worked on, you know, the crow without pros Brandon Lee, I worked on three hundred was axed nighter. I mean just those who right now are all the NFC you can say like, but their game changing in what they tried to do at the time you know, as far as what are much? Can you know with the marvel universe and superheroes? Now in action Alice's before born this is before underworld before marvel. This is before all that stuff. So these were the ones shaped our industry so yeah. I mean it it changed what was expected in. It also changed your mindset of what you can do. See get there. And you're like I don't know if I'm that good. You know, cut to few years later where you're putting the spot of, like, you know, I feel the need to do this and both my partner daily were asked to do other things slightly much bigger scale than, than the first John week. And we're like we just felt like look all that money. Sounds really, really good to do forty or fifty million dollar actually, we'd have more. But it just the stories scripts weren't there. And no one was going to give us at you her gun for shooting people in the head and doing all this stuff and having emotional hook that didn't, you know, if it's about bashing people's heads in revenge. Stories are good cops bad. Cops navy seals. We got we got those scripts. That's awesome. But if I told you again, I pitched this to you in simple sentences ex assassin loses wife of natural causes no affected. Bad guys kills eighty people because of puppy dies. I mean, we got kicked out every room in Hollywood knows did you wanna make them movie? So we did it independently with Linda road. We chose that one because one bows, on in thunder road, the Encana the two people in charge of the project gave a shot to do something that, you know is all fast, cutting shaky Cam from the Bornes at that point. And we say, look, we don't wanna cut we don't want anything. We do it like a live performance would be like feeder in, we're kill a lot of people because when this thing called gun FU, I'm going to this really slow martial art judo. We're not gonna punch and kick. And, you know, have somebody go sure, I mean, that's not normal. And that's how it came about. We tried to do something a little different. And, you know, we figured if we do something really small, if we really screw the pooch, no one's going to see it. Yes, we're protecting ourselves. You know it's not like jumping off and doing. Million dollar movie on your first go, which a lot of people try in for my mind, they all fail is there. Was there a heavy stigma for you in Liege in that time, because you were stunt men and stunt coordinator union now, like, okay, John Waikiki? Get it. But like at the time no one Kano, you know, had a year prior to finish forty seven Ronin, which didn't quite have the appeal. They're hoping for in the box office in. I am exactly sure we're in his time it is. But he had a few other films that weren't mainstream. So we're kind of under the radar like, no one was really looking at Kano. No one's really David. I mean, we're just too goofy stunt guys we had a really good name with second unit action directing for the studios. Like, yeah. That was great. These are the I'll get these guys with the fights off, get these guys for the car shakes, because he's to fix the film. Like, yeah, we made we had a very, very good career. We took a math bay cut to do John wake massive, as I'm sure candidate, we all did just because for whatever reason we liked the script. We liked the world that we were trying to create and we just said, you know, fuck it we're going to give it a go and. Imagine our surprise when people actually liked it. Like we wrapped Dave. And I looked at each of the okay, we find a second job whenever a direct again. We literally that in both went on found jobs, union jobs. We're like we're directions done. It was a nice, try. Good luck. Thanks for everything. And now here you weren't talking to me about the third one go figure. And I just came from something with Dave, you know, he's finishing up Hobson Sean did deadpool, two atomic fund. You guys have done well for yourself. So you mentioned reading the matrix, for the first time, I'm very curious about the first time you read the John, wick scripting kind of what goes into essentially, an action movie script, how much detail for the things that you have to execute exists, on the page versus how much of it is invention that comes from filmmakers, especially filmmakers, with your background. It differs a script writer, writer, you know riders. Right. You know, we choreographed so to expect a writer to capture everything in a mind, that's not really expected. You know, I think that's a. Issue, a lot of times for certain bigger movies is like the writer is coming in for an exceptional amount of money. So whenever he writes, is what you're supposed to do. It's the bible. But how can you expect any one person to get everything, right? Especially when experts from different fields, the first John wick, I think he killed the first script. I read I think he killed four people and it just shot him in the head, and that was done in zero different twenty x there, I think, in the first and then when you were you like look the way we choreograph is once you don't wing somebody when she had to get back up. It's not like a fistfight. You can't keep recycling stunned guests. So the budget jumps huge twenty stunk is said to. But honestly, the way myself, Dave two or three other of our friends that are from the action world. We encourage the seems a little backwards, we encourage the writers to write the fight scenes, we'll joke go like, you know, they'll act because they'll, they'll come in now and they go you guys are they actually has? No. Because you never know throwing ideas, let me hear you like there might be one. Or to you know, we had Derek said, right? Because he was always thinking. Well, you know, Derek. Right. And, like, honestly, I would say about every every fight sequence there's something and there's a character beat. There's something to ship that if not left in the film, inspired us to do something tenjin of that. So, you know, it's when you get a lot of brain power working, ultimately, it's our choice. So, yeah, we can say right, whatever you want. But, you know, we're probably going to strike most, you know, right around shit was the most of these I scout locations, I scout cities. I spend most my days, traveling writing looking at pictures, taking pictures and all that stuff and get inspired throughout that. And that's what uncertain to the script. We're a little backwards. Now, one it was a script to I went to New York and Rome and wrote all the sequences first, and then had our writers stick it all together and some kind of coherent plot. Three was ten times that count, and I got in a room run all these great ideas down. I wrote a story with it, and then fed it back and forth to the writers as they were trying to write some version of a script while. While the same time still rewriting the sequences in going. I mean it's like the kitchen sink. We through in everything and just sees what I know see what kind of again. I I'm a big on plot. I if I love story, but not I'm not worried about three acts or ply. Dan, the life. Somebody interesting is always fun to me, just like when you meet somebody at a bar. Like I don't really wanna know their whole ten year old, thanks. I don't need it all the end. So I just wanna talk to this guy and have an interesting story. I think that's what we applied to John wicker. What Chris our did a lot of the times with Yongbo or, or seven samurai, wet surgeon Yoni ended up doing with the man with no name series, like he's just Dan, the life of somebody really funky. And you're catching a piece of that. It's not hard to see the comparison between those fucking rock is pretty clear. Yeah. Tell me specifically though about when you're choreographing, do you need to know how to draw do you need to know how to write? How do you make that because people who don't work in his industry? Don't understand specifically. How you make some how you get that on screen. That's a good question pain and suffering. You know it's. It's always your biggest fear. I think my, my thoughts and ideas, definitely exceed, my capabilities at least as an individual a, but I'm saying is, I'm probably not good enough to pull off half the ideas, I have in my head, so I need help, and let's see at twenty five I was probably if not the probably in the top three most arrogant humans on the planet, maybe, maybe maybe up to so you think each get your buddies. You learn you don't detest when you try to cooperate, you try to get like, look, I'm not a painter. I can't go brush, to canvas on not a singer. I can't just sing a song I had anywhere between four dozen to four hundred people between me and my finished product. If I can't communicate my dears, if I can't get what I need someone fucked, like, if I see red, but I can't tell you how to mix blue and green or would I I'm fucked. So like you learn very quickly, that if you can't communicate your vision or your ideas, you're not gonna get it. Yes, I I'm. Lucky because I do actually than I was and action guy and I I'm fairly physical and I still keep up with that. And I have a great understanding of martial arts and query fee. And because of all my second year stuff I have great appreciation and knowledge of camera. And I also was an editor. So all these things kind of compiled into this great synergetic effect, which apparently is me now which is again unintentional, but like I'm just one of those lucky few that was either smart enough dumb enough lucky enough to architect, the life that utilizes all the useless stuff that I grew up learning and knowing and it kind of falls together in this. Honestly, no one's more shocked about the, the whole thing than I am. I mean what are the chances that all the weird shit you're literally beaten up as a kid for comes into play. Now, you know, this is I can say me nerdy, I can love anime. I can love cartoons as an adult I can love kung FU movies, I can do it all I can tell everyone, look, I like to make pretty pictures. I, I love beauty. Look pretty love renaissance painting and I love ballet and I can put that. Together in a movie, you should meet your pay me, a pretty lucky guy. You know, is that how so many of the kind of visuals that pieces happened in the movie said, you and Kiana get in the room? And you just say in this movie what do you love? I want there to be this. I love ballet. Okay. John McCain from a school literally order like that, walk in central park, just walking around the city with my production designer, Kevin Kavanagh right before Christmas. You know one of their two years ago now and it was freezing cold in, like I wonder where they put the horses in the carriages and we asked the carriage guys, there's a stable right over there. Eliza Brown face Brownstone on and the like that's can stabilize walk inside. And it was forced to stay with turnoff Fifth Avenue. No fucking way. Don't looks run in here. He's gonna shoot some people here. I am going to kill some people the horse, and as I got a fucking kicked, his a horse, not watching my ass in the stabling looking kicked, once, not, not guys in the movie. I got hooked pretty good. And I was like, let's go to the movie, and it just goes in, I have a notebook like this thick of all these ideas. So we just go through the notebook. Every move. And I was like every movie I go through my notebooks. Okay. This then you can initiate even if I don't use what's in there. It's really back afterwards thing, but it's you know, dolines gate credit the amount. They let us do our own thing is unprecedented in this business. Now, if that's with understanding or. In our or fear. I don't know why they let me do it, but they're very nice to let me do it. They have a bit of faith in the franchise, which is again. Awesome more money. More budget, more scale is that good? Or is that a bad pressure, both? I don't mind like, you know, once people try to blow you up and jump on pressure. Takes on a different, meaning I've been fortunate enough, people don't realize most stunt work is, is mental. It's how much can you do or how much shit? Can you take at Stanley ten percent of your career? Big stunts. We gotta have your shit together. The rest is just being cold being wet being hung in a harness, you know, being a comfortable and how much can you maintain a good attitude? Bring everybody down loss, taking it. So you learn to endure a lot and after all, that, like, I've had my I was fortunate I, I worked very well as a I mean I worked at a very good shows on very big stunts gets perform limited from big car stuff, too big falls to big explosions. I got to do it all, as a son perform, which I feel thankful for that I still can walk. But you didn't toughen up, mentally and you go certain place. I was a professional athlete for awhile. So that kind of shift my brain. So when you get two points of people just yelling at you over money and time you kind of let that slide off your back. Like at the end of the day, they'll fire me, I'm not gonna break my back. I'm gonna be able to walk the next day. I'm not going to have third degree burns on me. So you kind of click into, you know, it's all gravy from here. Like, I just, you know, try not to be a day, try not to pick up. And so it takes some of the pressure off with that, that mentality. But you know then you put other restraints. I mean, other responsible isn't like look canneries really offend mine. He's trust me to do something. I can't fuck this up and that to me is greater pressure than any of the, the financial stuff, you know. And then I'm not gonna lie to you. Get hooked on it. You know, we were completely surprised like you know, if you're doing if you're director of how you doing someone else? Yeah, of course, you have personal investment in like the John wicks for candidate than I like that's awes- like, especially number three for me. Like that's me. If you don't like what's in that, like, like just about? Ninety nine percent of the edits or mine, ninety nine percent of the choice of mine. If you don't like what somebody's wearing? I'm not going to tell you the studio. Maybe I did it should not. You're wearing all black right now. Yeah. So there you got notable. I'm not wearing a turtleneck turtleneck on now. It's like every decision, there's mine, and I take responsibility for that. That's the hardest thing because if you know, the reviews are coming in we get some good ones. We have some shitty ones, and nine of mind bad review just be intelligent about it. We've used this sucks. Am I am not getting paid for that? That's the best. He's got his sucks. But, you know, it's, it's more like if they would just wasn't the story to move four. We don't feel love for the character in all in all. It's not that thrilling gate. I get it. And that's a heavy responsibility means I kinda failed if you go, this is a really good ride. This is it, you know, it was a little too much action for me. Like I get it. We purposely went over the top on this one feel the fatigue of wick. Like I wanted to over the top, it was a conscious choice. You know, I get a lot of shit for that, while there's just too much you. Okay. But what's too much? I take ten minutes out. Is it still too much to minutes too much? And then the hardcore fans like why'd you cut out all the action. You know, you, you just try to do what you think is best, and this movie to me, is what I think is what I want to see out of a number three just like number one was what we wanted to see out of the number one, you know, we can't cry. We didn't have enough money. We didn't have enough time. There are choices and that's the most important responsibility. I think any filmmaker can take I feel like one of the anxieties that I hear from filmmakers, who are working on bigger and bigger projects is not so much how difficult it is to actually do the work. It's the reception of the work, and there's like a, you know, you've got a brighter spotlight on you now because this movie is going to be bigger than the last one. I, I guess that's on the filming. And I've talked to all my friends are actors and stuff. And they were funny. We were just talking about on the way over here, again, with two other friends that are directors. You know, it, it's how you take critique like one of my closest friends doesn't read a single, one won't read them. Doesn't care it as well. Be buck off. Don't wanna read them. Now a friend, like me that we read everything and it's not I two different reasons. I read them, just I wanna know I wanna feel the pulse, I wanna see what's hitting and I wanna. It makes me think a little bit. Do I doubt myself now. Fuck off. I do it. You wanna rag on me? Go do it yourself. You know, I had cut him in tally like step in the ring, and then you can talk about until then just an opinion, but then I have the other side of me, more creative more nice guy side, which is like I wonder what you think. Can we think is fine? You know if you just you can tell you can read the reviews and it's not just about the reviews. You can tell people are a little bit. You can see. Okay, one just writing something shitty to get a good review. You know, to get noticed. Some are like, actually they love the movie, but they are actually giving you what their, their fan boy, thing is. I dig that and my other friend, they read every review because, you know, they kind of question their choices in our question history. Like, okay, did did I this? Well, I should on that, Mike. Why didn't do me to has an argument with him? And I think that and I just got done saying, I think that's a little self destructive. Like I, you gotta own up it means our choices at the end of the day, if you don't like the movie, the released you to stand up and be day yet spoke anyway, like it's your. Choice if you let someone forced into decision, you're an adult, I mean, that you think you sort of answered the question I had, but it makes the point that I think a lot of time when a filmmaker writer, whatever has intentionally by what they're doing. It makes a lot more sense, easier stand behind, and he said, there's so much action, this movie one, it's not. I mean, it's John with three like if there's not a lot of action. I don't I honestly don't know what you're gonna have the most action. Yes, why not you? But you said you did it for a reason, you know, you thought showing the fatigue, the sort of intensity that way because going through over this long journey. It's purposeful. Do you is that something that you encounter? We're talking about when you're mad about the story too. Yeah, because I mean God when you have like thirty pays of action, you gotta, you know, it's gonna come up. It's coming the and it's like, you know studio. Look at it like that'll be the note, you know, when they do all these timing, I don't know if they audience knows what you do. Shitload attest ratings the audience. I mean, the studios want you to test in different demographics, different areas in different cities in the steel business, you know, they're not the creative like we, we go with our gut instincts. They have to go with numbers cycle. Analytics in what you. You know, women under twenty five say men over twenty five say what do you know, different ethnicity say different urban environments that they go through all this. And then that's their answer. That's plausible deniability is our guy. Well, this movie tested. Well, I don't know. Why didn't do? Well, you know, we gotta go with just making a fun movie. I don't know. I don't know what went on twenty five. Make it a fun. Actually yet have action, everybody thinks it's too much action. I'm like, yeah. But those people don't like, action movies, anyway. So I made this for action Louis people, you know, like, if you're going to John, wake movie hopefully it's got some other wacky stuff in there. But like, you know, it's, it's for the people that want to see fun, you know, when I take ourselves seriously. But interesting things they haven't seen before kind of action. And that's, that's what I grew up with. That's what I wanna see. So we kind of did it like that. But yeah, I don't know. I think from critics choice it's how you view really your creative process. Like I stand by what I did I stand by every choice. I know full well, and I think this is the maturity level involved in any creative endeavor. I don't hate my audience. I don't hate my critics. I don't I don't argue with him. I can't dispute, you know what they think you're feel if I get a bad review. It's like fair enough. You didn't like it. I get it. There's a lot of movies that people like that. I don't find favour with I, I have a professional opinion of how it was made. Like, you know, I made out like a superhero movie because of I just didn't it didn't click with me, but I can still very well made movie I think I can have that separation. But I'm sure those filmmakers, you know, you know, they made the movie they wanted to make it's funny because I feel like your franchise is very beloved. I don't feel like you're under fire on is, you know, a lot of action movies are not respected. And you're really are. And I think that's again, it's, it's not I never really feel under finally, I'm grateful for the way people feel about. And that's good. I mean it's a labor love. Hopefully people get that out of it, and hopefully connects at a different label that I'm gonna just trying to make or count on I and thunder road and Lionsgate when are trying to make a movie. That's Sal, we're trying to you where the honest general clicks within the that was cool. That was like somebody out there gives a shit. Look, somebody, you know, we're going to fifteen dollars to get shit. They're gonna make something pretty. They're not gonna make something. Purpose. I couldn't is John wick one than John with one part to jumping one part three like mimicking, the same view over and over. I'm trying to give us but yeah, you're always gonna get it. You know, the curse of the sequel too big too little too much too, similar to plain too much world building, not enough. We'll building none of heart too much heart, too. Little story too much like I weaned doll you out there. I get that. I totally get it. Like I have watched as many sequels as you guys have launched. I totally get it. So it's the most stressful part about being the director of the guy behind it like the guy in my chair is okay. We'll somebody's gotta tell me like you can phone it. And you can have some you tell you what's too much you can have test audiences. Tell you, what's, too much, or you stand up be beat a guy or, or be the, the real director and say, this is what I think, and stand by it. And that's just what you have to do. Now. Do you know, for sure? No, I'm not. I'm just saying, like it's my gut instinct, that this is good. And it may be surprising to some of you to know that, like I kinda shitload of action on John with number three. Like their sequences in there that I cut because I think they were standalone great. But in the movie, even I felt a little bit aboard. What do I do? Know. Okay. Let's go. So you gotta go if you got you know, and that's what I did. I walked out, feeling like I had seen two or three of the best actions at pieces that I've ever seen before. What is good? What was the hardest one to do? All trick in certain ways knife, that I find the antique store is rhythm and knowing that it was going to be a rematch thing because it's in my head, it work that way, I comes to NATO I have two younger brothers. We had a Yousef snowball fights, like you wouldn't believe, and it was pretty much looked like that sequence in the movie, just three people throwing recklessly fast and as many snowballs, you could each other in some hitting some missed that idea not shots. I'm sure heaps three boys kidding. And there are a lot of rocks in that snowball. Yeah. You know that was tricky mentally, but fairly logistically easy. You know, I have to animal sequences in the movie. That are probably the toughest be just because I don't know if you know this animals, don't know. It's movie, they just show up. I have no idea. The dog sequence like literally no idea almost a year with me in a trainer named Andrew Simpson. Who does all the wolves on game of thrones genius guy again, for those of you that don't know dogs don't know what's a movie when you see an animal attack a human being. That's not a movie dog, send a movie attack. It's an animal trying to injure human being. That's the way they do it that didn't seem to click with me. So, well, I'm a huge dog. I have two dogs at home in I was playing my puppies early in development. And I was like I had this idea. But like I get this little red ball I played with him. They say okay down. They put I was like I put the ball into my shirt started tacking a ball. I said, stop. They not. So I connected all these trainers, and they're like, wow. This is the way we do it. Okay. Finally got a hold of Andrew to a reference, as like look can we train the dogs just to play play attack. And he's like, well, you can just you can't use the animal. Can't Cillian will afterwards to attack schools because you've taught him to attack. Like you can't just give that to a family after that, 'cause like they think you know, hard play is acceptable where, you know, most people spend time training domestic animal to know that rough play like that or biting crotches is a bad thing. So we came up with a plan in the way to do it. We found five other trainers that were down to only animals to train them to, to keep them and just a whole different aspect of animal training when you get into it, that was going to be safe for the summer say, for the animals, obviously, you can't just have, you know, dogs don't know how speed a rehearsal to an animal is the same thing as a take and you don't wanna injure, their teeth jolly that the bite, and the stuntman of going on their flannel over the place. We decided that knowing what Andrew in knowing what I know what the stunts in the choreography in what I wanted to do that. It was going to be, you know, is this going to work? So we both went our separate ways. Andrew went on a big tour of the United States and found us five Belgian on than had the physical attributes. And the mental capacities that he felt like these are incredibly intelligent super strong super athlete, and they get it. They have the temperament to do. And after three months of testing on the animals exceeded all expectations. And then we had a train, all the stuntman. So the animals had to be acclimated to the people. So we got Halle Berry, literally five months early it's been air every day with the dogs a team of twelve stunt men that are repetitively used in Riyadh sequence that you see in, in the movie, and they just pretty much live with the dogs, they do their stone training in physical training day in two hours every night of the week with dogs. So this isn't just extras. I mean is literally kion Reeves in Halle Berry, huge movie stars making a huge physical and time investment to do something like this just from your perspective. What is in it for them is, what is, is it the challenge the difficulty of doing this? You know. L speak on a guest, you'd have to ask them for sure. I you know, the only difference being us in really any other movies is that attitude from them, you have great Quakers out there. You have great stunt directors out there. I, I know shitload them they're great. There's no reason that every movie out there shouldn't be as good if not better than than waken choreography. It really comes down to the, the most common denominators, which is cast people have to do it. Like we said, all the great ideas in the world. That's fifty percent of it the other getting across the finish line is who performs it. So if you don't get the right stunt team, you don't get the stone quarry. I don't get the right guy to shoot it you the rank cut it. You don't get the right performers all great ideas fallen deaf ears. So, you know, I, I spent three times as much in prep is everybody else. I take that money from the back end. But, you know, I don't believe in six weeks rehearsals, I believe in six months of rehearsals, and people look at me like flock in psycho. Most people don't realize that only the stunt people in the cast do this Harris was in. It's usually in gym, not with the right sets not with the right wardrobe IRA. Hearse as if they're dress rehearsals for five months out, and I just don't fake trying to be good. I have my cast just good. They're trying like some people. I know everybody says they do their own action. I'm gonna call bullshit. I know everybody says, it's the hardest thing ever done a couple of shit again. I know everybody says train super hard now couple should he end there's hard and then there's fucking hard. And then there's you know we trained for the job. We train to work at performance levels, if you've ever wanna know how we train go sit backstage, go to New York City ballet, dress rehearsal in watch, what professional dancers, do they do an hour and a half performance about forgetting a move. Think about it. That's months of training. We do the same exact methods only with martial arts almost to a T what, what the professional dance companies do. That's because it's all memory off his goal muscle memory in how we perform with on and off and how we rotate Cameron. There is very, very similar live performances. So what are they get out of it? One. As an individual, I'm sure it's I've accomplished, something I thought I can do. I'm sure that's in there, I've accomplished something that other people just don't want to do. And you know in the acting field. I know again, everybody says they want to do it. Look. I'm sure everybody wants to be the matrix. I'm sure everybody wants to be John Wakeham share. Everybody wants to be Halle Berry flipping and flying. I get it. So would I and I'm sure the first week of training is very fun for everybody. I'm sure the second week is less fun. And I'm sure five months later of, you know, a a, you know, a fucking hardcore diet being constantly sore beat up in mentally exhausted. And so try to live a life with your family, after eight hours of driving over Los Angeles to three different gyms and having to have that personnel, and still learning your lines and the opportunity cost of not taking two other jobs to make you quick million here million. They're like, yeah, it's fucking sucks. You know, Keanu it Buchan socks for him. I mean, she, it's fun in for Halley fucking socks. But the end of it, if you see it in hopefully, it all comes together, and you take a big gamble. You roll the dice. They've been on me. I bet on them you come out of it, and you see the work, and you're like, yeah, pretty fucked proud of that. And then you get the reviews in the kudos, we're getting right now, like, yeah, I you know, if if you didn't wanna roll the dice, if you didn't wanna try and climb them out, and you wouldn't be in this business. You know, is that what it is between you and Kiana, who is alternately the final product is the most important thing, and then it is worth it. You know, Kanza is great guy. I mean for him, he, I again, a reach on this one, but he loves cinema. He loves movies. He loves experience making me. Let's watch him as being in them. He loves developing him. I feel I'm very much the same just from what I have experienced with Halle and Laurence Fishburne in McShane. They fucking love movies. I think we'd all be fairly clueless or working at a gas station, if he weren't in film. And I think the love of it is at. So I I don't think it's well it's very nice. It's like look it's about the finished part. But I think honestly. For myself in kennel. I guess it's the journey. I mean, we love the love the challenge. It's like it's a very individual thing, but yeah, I mean when you're sitting at theory, like we've had a couple of years screenings when the audience is laughing cheering going while it's a fucking drug, like, yeah, you're very proud of yourself, your honestly, it kind of gets you choked up because you look across the theme. You see you cruzi. You're casting, like only fuck, like they all came to bat for me. And it's like you feel that weight of off. I want this up because like they gave you everything. And I mean, the relief I have is when people laugh or go out with the movie, we got a good review. It's like Faulk United my friends now. And that's the biggest thing for counties. Feels very much the same about me in the rest of the cash like Faulk openly guys down. You know that's why stands back up, you know, for I guess, for anybody in that position, you know, the, the strongest most satisfying thing is to choose to get that one more time like that's a choice like you can stay down. He could phone it in. You can do one less take. But I think for us, it's you know choosing to stand. A more time choosing to take that one more risk to, to make something good to make something great. And you know that ride you go through those people who'd be the closest people have in your life. You know, for your professional career, which is pretty you've been inside the whig world, for six years, seven years, little or five five years, will you keep going? How do you figure out what to do next? Look, I love we. I love the people that work with the studio folk, I love my producers, I love my crew la- mccaskill of Kano, obviously. And I love the character quick. I mean to say involve for as long as we'll have me, you know, whether it's directing producing writing developing choreographing, you know, I'll fucking Kerry John. Wigs lunchbox. I would like to try the things for sure. It's not really the creative need other than look, I think, to be fair to the character in the franchise. If if we bump into somebody who's got better ideas or has a fresh take on things. I want to do what's best for for John wake. If we listened to one hundred people, and I still have the best ideas and you know, you know, fuck it out again. Kind of honestly, we, we think very different. We voted very secure career. I'm very happy with what I've done in my career, and we're met. So I just kind of go with my gut if I get to other projects, I, I don't try and plot or plan a career like well I've done three weeks. So that's about eight ninety to go do this not much trying to the job. Hopper. You know, come up with some kind of academy nominated Oscar winning. Emmy thinking road of success. I just wanna have fun and work with good people. So if that means Joma great, if it means something else, great and never absorb with the show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing? They've seen Jan with Lasker thing you've seen last night, I watched to Cobra KAI. Oh, yes. So what do you like about? And it's a great recommendation. Yeah. Fuck it got a little heart, man. And I was a crowded kid fan. Come on. I forget the what's guessing plays Johnny the actor OAS alka. Is that cut? Yeah. Jobs. I fucking just low what they did with his character. I got love Ralph. I think he's. Phenomenal. But the switch it around like that. And give the eighties vibe in today's thing, how they deal with kids. He's got some fucking lines and that they just make me laugh 'cause I'm from on from that year. Like game of thrones like berry think Laders fucking Larry. Yeah. Choreography on that show too. Yeah, no escape as one of my guys, Daniel Bernhardt who did the last episode. Yeah. Let's uber. Says, actually no. It's great level out of stuff like that. You know, for me, you can say things that are beautiful, Rama or something like that. We can say things that are funny. Kobe I mean I don't even know what they make an episode that four. But like I just if any of those guys are listening, like huge fan, great job. I think you guys rock to do. You do with the budget you have and make people laugh. I mean you know, there's some I mean think of all the big superheroes I come out like we're not talking about those right now. We're talking about these little TD things, where people have a lot of creativity and just a lot of hard into him. I think that, that always sells and I like the big stuff to just I maybe thinks lily lily watching episode lesson. So this morning, and I thought that was I thought it was clever. I think that's the same relationship. People have John wick, Chad. Thanks for doing this man. Of course. Thank you very much. Thank you, again, to CHAD'S to Helsinki. Now, let's give my pal shakes around will call so we can chat more about John wick three. And if you have not seen the movie remember, and I will be spoiling, and now super hyped to be joined by think for the first time share Toronto on the big picture. Shay, what up? Yes, this is the first time. This is a very big moment for me. Sean, this very big fantastic. I'm so glad that you're here, I've been waiting. I've been biding my time waiting to have you on, because we needed you here for, for John wick, you are the Lord of John wick. You have been doing a podcast, all about John wick with a pencil, I would encourage anybody who is not subscribed to that, that is listening to this. I can't believe there are more than seven or eight of you on earth to subscribe to that show. Check it out. I still needed you here to help us understand. I just spoke to CHAD'S the healthy the director of this movie, but I need to know specifically what you thought about the movie. So for me, describe your feelings, exiting, John wick three my feelings. Exiting John Lee threes. I was. So, so thankful. That's how I felt I was nervous going in John wick, one was fantastic. John wick, to was even better, and it felt to me, very similar to win like to win. There's a rapper or musician who their first two albums really. Good. And you're, you're excited because, you know, if they stick the third one that they belong in the top level of every conversation in that particular field. And that's what that's what I felt was at stake with John wick three there, either. Going to nail this thing and John wick becomes like an all time. Great action movie franchise, or they're gonna fumble the ball, and then we're going to end up with a Tokyo, drift situation, and it's going to take four more five more movies before. They like figure it out. And they fucking nailed it. My good friend, Chad nailed it. Would you say this is sort of Jay Z's volume too hard knock life, ex- execution here? Third album really living up. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good. That's a good analogy to plug in there. What kind of expectations did you have just kinda creatively with the story, we would where did you think was going to go because this movie is significantly bigger, I think even significantly bigger than, than to which takes us to Rome and takes us back to New York, but is ultimately, you know, pretty contained this movie is sort of all over the map, literally. Yeah. So with with these sorts of movies with John wick, especially we are at the point now where you don't even try to guess what they're going to do in the next one because you just have no idea what part of that world. They're going to. Open up for you. It's similar to the way it feels when you watch a Jordan Peele movie. And, you know, after ten minutes, like I'm just gonna stop trying to guess what's going to happen because I have no idea what's coming next. And that's part of the excitement of watching one of those movies, you sit down. And you have no clue what's going to happen, because even in the trailer, they give you one second shots of action scenes in, like, well, okay. Bobin is definitely going to get hit with a book. There's definitely going to be a motorcycle, and there's definitely going to be a desert, but I have no idea how the stitch all of this to gather, and those that, that to me is, like, that's really up there as far as how as far as moviemaking goes like when you can get to that point, when you just have the audience totally just at your mercy is when you have like the best movie experiences. I feel like let me ask you a question. I want to hear about your your, your favorite things about the movies specifically. But before that, are you at all nervous for Kiana Reeves, because I found myself watching this movie, and it's being Louis I feel like he could. Die at any moment. He's fifty years. There are a lot of extremely intense sequences, especially that sequence at the end of the movie where he's fighting to men at the same time in the in the continental at just I, I just got tired, watching him. Do you have any fear for Keanu safety? I have no fear for safety Kano caught this movie. He caught this movie at the exact right point in his life because you, especially see it when he's running somewhere and it looks labored and it looks like he's hurting his whole body is hurting you need that, that's part of the John wick ethos. This isn't this isn't John matrix, fighting off a hundred thousand soldiers all at once and never even bleeding. This is a guy who is you know, twenty percent away from death for basically eighty percent of the movie you need that sort of energy with it. And Keanu being as old as he is able to pull that off without even really trying. It's true. He's, he's literally dragging asset times and that it really does help the story helps the character. This is not a. Listen, if this is a superman figure the movies don't work. And he's obviously, he's got he's got some some weaknesses in the literal. Physical weaknesses are. It's a, let's do a little countdown. Gimme four things from the movie that you really, really loved, and it can be anything it can be a character or it can be a fight. Just just hit me with what you loved. All right. Are you going to do for as well? Or is it just gonna be me? Are we going to bat bouncing back and forth? You might inspire me to share some of my own. Okay. Cool. Well, then I'm going to start with an easy one. I'm going to start with a fight. I I really love how violent this movie is. And that's probably like it's a weird thing to say, but that's really what I felt so with, with the first John with movie, Sean, the whole point of this one was to introduce you to the world here, here's the main character. This is like a peek at the world he lives in the whole point of the second movie was to show, you how big and how expansive it is. And how nuanced all of the parts are, and they're all sort of working together, and then, with the third one, the whole point of the third one is to show you exactly how brutal and vicious this life can be. It's not like just a cool thing. This is a dangerous deadly world. That is going to inflict pain on every person in it. So once the movie stars, and we see him getting stitched up, and we have the big knife, fight in the beginning like they're setting the tone early, this whole movie is going to be fucking breakneck for the whole way through. So I want to start with a fight that I really, really liked. There are three I think three or four big ones in there. There's a knife fight in the beginning. And you have this shot of him. Slow motion stabbing the guy in the eye, which is again unreal. You have the dawn was not the word I would use. I don't think I would use borderline vomited Cy. I was I was quite my stomach, turn to when I watched that happen. It was it was hard to watch, right? It was very or not watch. Yes. You I've, I've never seen that in a movie before I've seen, you know, I entries. But they happen really quick and it's just like you see the after effects of it this one, they show you. They let you hear the sound of the blades going in, I because the is trying to fight it off. And you hear it going in there, slowly, I think this is probably like the second most intense slow moving stabbing saying that I've ever seen in a movie, the first one is in saving private Ryan. When Mellish gets it when he's like begging for his life, and the guys pushing the knife into like this is like a version of that. So there's that fight there's a dogfight scene, which is unreal. There is the John wick versus zero. And then there's the one you mentioned the John wick versus the two guys at the end. And I really, really like if I have to pick one of those out of all of them, I gotta go John wick versus zero Mark. The COSCO's as zero is, maybe my second favorite part of the entire movie. And to see those two guys going at it back and forth for as long as they're allowed to and all the little tricks and jokes that they're playing. They keep doing the gag where one of them disappears on the other one. Yup. They do it like five times in a row. And it gets funnier and funnier. You like there's no way he's going to do it again. Because at that point after like the third time of disappearing now you're only doing it to fuck with other guy. And that is hilarious to do in the middle of life or death fight. So for anybody who doesn't know about Marcus like just talk about where you may have recognized him from, and what his history is in films like this, because I thought that casting him zero was just a genius. Turn it absolutely was a genius. Turn Mark Dakota's is a be level action movie star kung FU star, and he's had a couple of like halfway big movies here. He had only the strong in the mid nineties, one of my favorite movies, certainly my favorite Mark COSCO's movie. He was in cradle to grave, he was the main bad guy there that Jedi fights at the end, he was in the double dragon movie, which is the first movie I saw him in, in love with them immediately. So Martinez was has this, like, really this. Earnestness about him dislike. Early in his eyes that he's able to do and all of the other movies. He's been in his movie called drive in nineteen ninety seven where he plays like this Biannic, man that has a like an engine in his chest, and his a super fighter, and he's able to like you drop them into a movie like that. And it feels a little weird to watch him. Be like this. Excellent, excellent movie fighter, and then he turned around, and he's just as like the sweetest nicest guy with his eyeballs, it's like a weird thing, but in the John wick movie universe, they played it perfectly. They let him be this vicious, vicious fighter, and then they give him two or three moments where he gets to turn that off, like break character. And just become regular Mark and just sort of gushes about John wick, to John wick. Yes. And it's fucking it's, it's beautiful and watching those two guys. Fight man is like you've been waiting for this moment for, for twenty years. He's been waiting to get a big league shot in a movie that takes it self seriously and places all of his characters and the best. Possible position. And he finally got it and he nailed he's the biggest surprise in the movie. He's the biggest surprise in a movie with Bobin getting killed by a book. I think that's accurate. I love what you're saying. So it's funny. Marcus is seven months older than kion Reeves. They were both born in nineteen sixty four and I see the sort of outside of the movie narrative around these two having a showdown at the end of this movie as sort of b movie America and a movie America finally throwing down, and I feel like that is actually an amazing representation of what John wick is right. It's the best of bee movie kung FU martial arts, crime, movies meeting, these sort of, like high toned glossy, Kiana, read style, major studio movies and the two biggest avatars for those kinds of movies to caucus in res kind of coming together for an epic fight. A war is just such a genius metaphorical execution on top of the scenes themselves being so good. Yeah. It was. I couldn't believe it watch watching it happen. I was so happy for Mark. This was a performance where if this was the first time you've ever seen him you walk out of the. Understand this. This is the star. This is the guy who's going to be the star of whatever next action franchise. We get he just played all of those pieces great. That's, that's such a like a great part of the John Wayne movies, is how they just let each of these characters be with any to Halle Berry was perfect Asia. Kate Dillon was perfect Laurence. Fishburne emiss- there, all perfect in exactly the way they need to be perfect. And it just as beautiful. Yeah. I feel like they're having a lot of fun. You know, there's something evident, you can see in Asia, Kate Dillon, or in Ian McShane, the level of glee that they have just reading the dialogue. You know what I mean? Yeah. They all know exactly what they're doing. So we noted that the fight with zero as your number four moment. What's, what's number three? Number three, this is a tiny thing really, really, really tiny thing we were hinting at, at a minute ago, just right now about how, how good they are sort of drawing out, these characters in letting you understand exactly the purpose of each character. Asia, Kate Dillon who is my, my favorite TV actor. Their incredible in billions. I was excited when they were in this movie and a thing that they do that, a really really like and just it the further along in the movie, we got the more excited, I was each time, they did it is Asia, never one time turns around and looks back at anybody after they walk away from a conversation Asia is in the most dangerous small population of the world. Just dealing with assassins, all day long keeps talking shit to everybody and each time when they're finished, they just turn around and leave, and they never one time. Glanced back to see, like, am I about to die? And that is just the cocky as greatest thing that I've seen. I think there's something also wise about using a figure that is not physically imposing sort of the ultimate big bad of the movie, you know, using Asia, and the adjudicator as this Representative of a shadowy organization that we never meet to be. Oh, totally have access to and saying, you know, this fairly small person is extremely powerful and at the drop of a hat can call upon forty, you know, military grade swat operatives wearing full body armor. I think particularly that raid, when the when the high table swat team hits the continental and John wick has to face put his gun behind their helmet to affectively kill them, Musone intense. And obviously all of that comes from the adjudicator, it's a it's a good twist. And it's, it's very difficult in these moves. I think to continue to raise the stakes to say that there is something bigger and more powerful than Tarasov, or bigger and more powerful than Santino bigger and more powerful than ex, you know, they have to keep going up level, to a new big bad and Asia Dylan is, is a nice subtle. You know, a nice subtle reversion of what we are expecting. You know, the bone is the biggest person in the. And also, the first to be dispatched and there's something clever about that, too. What about number two? Number two. I don't know if this counts as a full one or half one, but I wanna make sure that I mentioned Atlantic back again, as the, the hotel manager, the concierge is in incredible character foreseeable, but there's a part during the senior mentioned when the, the raid comes in, although the guys come in and they had their super armor on and bullets don't work anymore. You, you need a bigger gun. You need a more powerful, gun, you need to be a little bit closer for this to work, and so they're out there John wick and hammer on the same team now. Because at this point in McShane, and John wick are just they're at war with the high table. And so you've got Lance Radic. You've got John John wick out there fighting the raid by themselves to one however, minute is to twenty and they do it for a few minutes, and nothing happens. And then they cut back into the vault where all the guns and everything are, and Lance walks in, and it's the first. Time you see him in the movie he looks fucking pissed. He is so mad that these guns are not working and he walks in and he looks around he grabs a bigger gun. And then he just fucking leaves immediately to go kill people. I that was, I was almost standing up in my seat clapping and yelling like let's flocking. Go as it was what I felt like when I saw that. Like, John finally has a partner who was gonna step up. I loved it. Yeah. And through the first two and two thirds of these movies. Sharon, the, the concierge has been basically dispassionate observer of everything that goes on. So when he straps it on. It's kind of, it's kind of a well-known that they don't actually make too much out of they just make it clear that he knows where the guns are he knows what weapon you to go to. It's clear that he is even though he stands behind desk at a hotel, all day is also a bad ass. I enjoyed that too ios really it was really neat. And there was one part where they show him sort of huddled up against a wall. And he's, he's holding a gun, and he's sort of, you know, he's doing the thing where he's looking to see where the bad guys are. And he looks a little insecure and a moment and I was in my head San I don't know if he's going to be able to pull this off because you need to have a certain kind of confidence in your body for these scenes to work. Otherwise, it just looks like you're counting in your head. One two, three four one two three doesn't work. Halle. Berry is a perfect example. Halle Berry running up on these guys doing this. Jujitsu Halle Berry was very body confident in this movie. She knew she could do all of the parts necessary as it was really exciting to watch her fight scene with the dogs, you're like holy shit. This is incredible. She I felt I should have been training, her whole entire life, for those eight minutes of combat and the movie and with Lance reading they do that, for a shot of him peeking around the corner, and you feel like maybe he's not going to be able to do the same thing. And then when he gets mad it just played. It was like they did it on purpose. They set you up to sort of pull the carpet out from under you yet again. And I loved it. Yeah. We talked to chat a little bit about just the difficult. Not of choreographing, some of these scenes. He said specifically that, you know, the dog sequence you can imagine was very, very challenging because dogs are dogs. They're not act since they a lot of times, even if they're well trained they do what they wanna do. And there's no such thing as play attacking when they attack you, they attack you and Halley's dogs are attacking, like crazy in the movie should we go to number one. I guess we should go to number one. Let's go to number one. Tell me your favorite thing. What was your favorite thing about John wick three my favorite thing about John, like three? Son of a gun. Let me tell you one before we do that, that, when let me make sure I mentioned the guy from the raid. The raid part two. Yeah. Fights, John wick at the end an incredible performance. I was so glad to see him in this movie as soon as he shows up in the background of the scene. You know, him and John wake are eventually going to fight, and you are just waiting for the entire time because if you've seen the rate movies, you know that this guy is fucking about his business the this scene in the raid to when when him and Rama fight in the in the kitchen is unreal. So you're waiting the whole time. I love that guy. Wanna make sure we say his name, but my favorite part of this movie, something that they didn't do in the first two movies is they gave us several sort of twists. Several unexpected things that you had no idea where about to happen. Like we find out, for example, that John wick. That's not his real name is a whole different name, which at this point was a total shock to me. You also have the moment where. John and Winston team up to go to war, which I didn't see coming. And then you have Winston immediately betraying, John and then John and the Bowery king teaming up. And also there's the party fucking Sean. We've been talking for this movie about twenty minutes. And we haven't mentioned that John wick cuts his own finger off in the movie to prove a point, what what's going on. This movie is incredible. I love everything. Yeah. I think I couldn't totally wrap my head around the cutting his finger off thing because he essentially defied the requests of the person for whom he cut the fingers off of you know what I mean. He he goes in, he he's he spent some time at the top of a sand. Dune in the middle of what country was. He was he was he was he in Casablanca there. I don't even know what country had made it to at that point. I have no idea. I was I was in tears, by this point of the movie, I couldn't take anymore. But yeah, so he does cut his finger off to prove a point, and then ultimately doesn't necessarily follow through on that point. I mean, the two guys we should talk about who we mentioned a couple times from the retour yon Ryan and assess up refried Mun. And they're this sort of the two the two should not be that he fight at the end of the movie both of whom have appeared in move the raid movies. And if you know the John Wayne movies, you know, that the filmmakers, obviously had a lot of love respect and admiration for the raid movies, because you can kind of feel that of the very similar close range, fighting style that, that the raid, just I don't know. I don't know if they perfected it, but they certainly put it on the map in a new way. I guess I don't I'm trying to think of what my favorite absolute favorite thing about this movie is, I think the fact that so many the, the mythology I thought was coherently enough explained but not solved. You know, they managed right? You've mystery. Around the edges, the movie obviously ends with the option for fourth movie. I would be really shocked if there was not a fourth, John with movie, whether they choose the tell it specifically from John's point of view is of TVD for us. But you know, we got kind of a glimpse at what it meant. What the high table was really all about, but not into tally. I also you know what I really enjoyed was the actor who plays Braun on game of thrones appearing in a significant role as sort of the coin master, Halle, Berry's boss in the movie. I want to know more about that world to and everything that's happening there. What did you think of that stuff? Yeah. I again, I'm gonna just keep saying I loved all of the parts I love that. They give you just enough of each of the things where you're like I kind of understand it, and I kinda wanna know more. That's the perfect spot to be in, because then you can turn it into anything we still don't know what the high table is, and we don't know if anything is above the high table, and we don't know exactly what they do all that we know is the name and they set it up perfect as you mentioned, for, for part for. I know it's going to happen in part for him. And tell you right Now, Sean. I talked to my good friend, I talked to my good friend chat about it. This is going to happen. Tell me the Bowery king, and John wick team up. Of course, we saw that happening. They're going to war against the high table. The high table is going to have some, some supergroup of assassins going to be like, four people, that's who they're going to dispute it. They're not going to send a hundred and eighty people, they're going to send these four or maybe they send those four behind the hundred and eighty people. But the main one of that one is going to be the main guy from the rate's going to be Rama. And we're finally going to get the greatest movie fighter of all time versus John wick, we've been waiting. We've never gotten a level of fight of this level ever in a movie, and it's going to happen and is going to be I'm, I'm an tearing up right now. I feel like Mallory Ruben talking about her beloved ghost. That's what's going on here. I'm really excited that this is going to happen, as I can feel it in my bones. It's actually shocking that echo US has not appeared in. John wick movie. It's kind of stunning. That Rama has not had a moment in this series. There has to be a reason for that because he might be, and he was in, like mile twenty two last year, which is a movie that maybe you liked. I was not a huge fan of. He's, you know, he's in Steuben later, this summer, a Dave Bautista action comedy. He certainly making his way through a lot of the, you know, key, Hollywood properties that have fight sequences. And he also appeared in a big role in Keanu Reeves's. Directory all debut man of Taichi movie I like a lot, not a lot of people have seen in a somewhat significant roles. So theoretically of a final showdown between Rama John wick, I think would be sick. It's going to happen. I did see model twenty two. I did like mild twenty two. Of course you did, by the way. But here's the thing, here's here's the thing, we can finish on on this point. If you like and I'm going to tie this back to Marcus, the people who may John wick understood how to use Mark better than anybody has ever understood how to use him. That's why him out. So great even more than I earn chef America, even more than iron chef America. I remember as I don't know if you know this guy's a writer named Jeff Weiss. When when the Connie I will eight awaits and heartbreak came out. I never forget this over ten years ago, and I remember reading his review, I don't know whether review came out, I remember any part. But I remember seeing a line in that was really incredibly insightful. And he said, Kanye west, he speaking about a guest verse that young Jesse has an and he says, Kanye west understands how to use young geez, e better than young Jisi understands how to use young cheesy. That's how I felt about the John wick people with Mark Decosta's in mile twenty two. When we finally got Rama and like movie where OSHA he's gonna fight. He's gonna fight. Mark Wahlberg in this movie is what everybody thought and it didn't happen. And we got one really good fight scene with him, but they kept cutting away they kept doing the like taken Liam Neeson's style. We have to make you think this person knows what they're doing. It was like a total waste. It was like you have the best fighter in the world. And you're not letting him do what he does the best like just put a camera on them and let him go nuts. The John wick universe when they do their fight scenes. That they make like one long shot. They don't do all the cuts. They don't do all that bullshit. You, you need to know what you're doing when we start filming when they put him in this movie, and they look at him and they go, here's the best way to use this guy. Here's the way that nobody has figured out how to use him, yet, it's going to be. It's going to be something special, Sean. I'm telling you right now, or maybe he becomes the new John wick, who knows take any part of it any part of him that we can get in a big franchise like this. Sign me the fuck up. I can't wait. I promise that won't be the next time you're on the big picture though, you will definitely be on four maybe maybe save a little room for me. When Hobson Shaw comes around. What do you think? Let's do it. Okay. Thank you. Man. I appreciate you. Thank you, again, to share Toronto and to the director, Chad to Helsinki, go see John wick three. What more can I say about that? And please tune in next week, we'll have a new episode of the big picture. Amanda Dobbins and I will be talking about highschool movies, and there's a reason we're going to be talking about those movies. It's because book smart is coming out soon. This is Libya, wild directory all debut, and I have a sit down interview with Olivia Wilde, and the stars of her film. Caitlyn. Deavere beanie Feldstein. Billy Lord in addition to the co screenwriter of the movie Katie Silverman. Yes, I interviewed five people at the same time, please tune in for that next week.