Women Warriors: Pamela Toler & Carol J. Adams
I mean I let's put out a shoutout to this incredible bookstore that I wanna sleep in. According to Pamela Toler, the best stories, aren't found and fiction or myth, but history as shared and shaped in the telling the historian, and author of heroines of mercy street, the real nurses of the civil war joins us in the stacks to shed light on the unexpected history of women warriors, her recent world history of lesser known, but often central figures on the battlefield from the most famous woman warrior in European history. John of arc who story writes, Toler serves as an exceptional standard of women in combat in most people's minds to buffalo calf road woman, the Cheyenne warrior, who knocked Custer off his horse. We take a survey of such larger than life as we know it characters that fought Toler expectations every step of the way, along with a few other books on warrior woman that helped her to keep going. I'm here with Pamela Toler historian, coop member and author of no, fewer than eight books, most recent of which is women warriors, an unexpected history. And I guess unexpected is right. We'll we'll touch on that. I wanted to start though by asking it seems to me that your, your project, your career is in writing, maybe alternative or unexpected histories. But also in a more. We're, we're sometimes needlessly afraid to say accessible way sensible pros that seems like such a cool mission. What about history mix you excited to bring it or present it to more general audience at some level? It's the best stories are. I apologies to all my friends who write novels, but. They're wonderful stories, and it's just a shame that so many people say, no, I hated history in high school, then I fell into history really early. And even though he went the academic route, I got the degree. I knew pretty early on that I really wanted to write history for a broader audience wanna be Barbara Tuchman when I grow. Pretty well. And so what was. That kind of motivation in mind, what then made you not only present history for broader already, but present less disclosed or less familiar history to that product that would seem like something, we'd expect for a more niche or maybe more academic crowd? And it's just those are the stories that have frequently interested me. But also, I think we do really badly at that by and large, we don't do very well at seeing history from another point of view, or knowing other cultures history. And I've got a blog where I write stories from history. And I so often find myself saying, I was really shocked to discover I didn't know anything about this, I go to Chile and realized that I don't have any feel for that history at all. So I spend a lot of time trying to just turn around and look at it from another perspective. So that sometimes even familiar stories take on a really unfamiliar twist when you do that before we're going to what you, mean and have learned about women warriors, I wanna start with just the term warriors which just as you're saying as turn that as. Spent more than eight seconds. Thinking about I realize I know very little about we think about, for your, I think about warrior, in terms of these kind of male, we're predominantly, masculine archetypes warriors. I know in terms of pose in yoga, I believe, but that's about the extent of it. So where does this term warrior, come from, how is it maybe different than soldier fighter one way? It's different from soldier is a lot of these women who fight don't fight in what we think of as a regular army. In fact, one thing that I found fascinating is that the places where that are most that are most friendly to women who fight in military sense are not places with regular armies. They're not large empires than they are. Tribal places they are on their cultures. They are nomadic cultures there. So that we're your has a very different context than soldier. I think, and it almost ends up having a metaphorical sense here. Just even though I really didn't want to be women for whom fighting was a metaphor. I mean, these are actually women who either are holding a weapon or are leading force will you, you talk about that in some of these books that you presented for us of your bibliography books that interested you or in some way shape, the writing of women workers, the book warrior queens, for example, you talk, that's warrior queens, by acclaimed biographer. Antonio Fraser, who wrote about her own life with Nobel prize winning play. Right. Heroes Pinter, two decades, after the publication of warrior, queens for, which she was congratulated by Margaret Atwood for rescuing women like Cleopatra is. Of Spain, and Indira Gandhi India's first and so far only female prime minister from their own kids, you talk about it sort of use of story, largely created, you know, these sort of largely male created tropes, where they present women warriors, these kind of larger than life figures, almost metaphorical, figures another book on your list that we have. Here's the Amazon's lives and legends of warrior, women across the ancient world by mayor, which you point out sort of combines mythology with history. In order to tell a true account of women warriors. So there's two that are kind of using metaphor or story differently, and I'm curious as a historian, how does story, help either shape and or complicate our sense of history. In so many ways that part of it is a lot of what most of us, hold as history kind of, in our guts, is what I end up describing this comic book history, and just because it's history that's boiled down to this simple emotionally, resonant form and people who don't remember any dates or the names of any bills, or even maybe the names of wars of the American civil war, and the revolution from history, will remember, these tight little historical, then yet s- that may have some truth in them, even if they aren't literally true. I mean. I mean. Lincoln did not the Gettysburg address on the back of envelope and just to liberate brilliantly off the cop. We have drafts that he wrote marie-antoinette did not say, let them eat cake, but those stories we remember and they hold the emotions in the imagination said, if you want to readjust those in any way you need to tell stories yourself. You need to bring people to life as best you can and sometimes with the characters that I'm dealing with here. Women I'm dealing with that's hard to do because we don't have much, and we certainly in many cases don't have access to what they thought or why they did what they didn't particularly in the past. And why, why is that? Why don't we have? Someone like Boda who rose up against the Roman empire in Britain, she comes from a non literate culture. So what we know about her is written. Several generations. If not one hundred years after the fact by Roman men Buddha, by the way, it was a Celtic Queen who led the Celtic. Tribes of Britain in revolt against Roman rule, and famously said win the battle or perish that is what I will do. So a lot of times particular for the ancient world, we don't have the women's words, what we have our men's descriptions of what they did often written after the fact and often written by the descendants of their enemies, so shapes it in very clear things out, and very decided ways, I would mention too, right? Is are these stories these, these characterizations of, of female empowerment female warrior? However, we might describe that is that something that we see more often with women than with men. I'm thinking about, you know, powerful women in Greek mythology and drama, Dr Antigone years, so forth, and then leading up into the present tense of the twentieth century Rosie the Riveter, even in Quinton Tinos killed Bill series. We have the bride who's one of the most fierce warriors, I can think of, you know, but is that depiction of, of women in combat as sort of fictional characters? There's something we see more with women than with men. Wow. I think we are more apt to see fictionalized. No, I I'm not sure that's true. Actually, but we will see a higher percentage of almost archetypal or mythological figures, because we're often not recognizing the historical figures blindspot. Yeah. And the other thing is that often, historically, people will look at the myth, and we'll untangle the truth of the male character, and then say that the fight against clearly didn't exist in do that. So I guess it's a blind spot, and it's an imbalance. I wanted to ask about a couple of other titles here under list. One is the title women armies and warfare in early. Modern Europe by Johnny. Lynn, the second which you described his hands down the best discussion of the uncomfortable relationship between military history and gender studies. Can you save more vote with that relationship is sure? I mean, in some ways, there's a never the to shell meet feeling too, that by, in large military history has been an all-male bastion and it's nothing only written by men, but they're typically only looking at men whereas gender history is real gender. Studies are really beginning from very different theoretical place those two academic fields. Don't attend the same conferences. They don't have the same theoretical rounding. They don't start from the same place. And what Lynn does that I think, is enormously interesting is he reaches out to. Women's studies people to gender studies people and says, tell me what you do. Tell me how you think, look at what I've written and tell me where I missing the places that you think about where am I not asking the questions? You would ask of this material and he acknowledges that it's new for him. He acknowledges that it's uncomfortable for him. He apologizes for when he didn't get it, right? Without knowing where those places might be, and even though his is one of the first books that really does that. I don't know that those two worlds have meshed any more easily now than they did then. But it really is a very careful look at, at this whole. The bridging together as the two very disparate approaches an an another attempted research with basis. And humility, it sounds like wonderful starts just in the Donna, Sheehan book. I mean, I picked it up because I wanted some facts and instead, I found almost strongest, they're radical discussion anything. I read in the course of working on this. Another book that you say really helped to shave your kind of working definition of women warriors was the military leadership of Matilda of Canossa. Mathu who's? Matilda. Matilda canossa. She sometimes also called Matilda Tuscany. She's in twelfth century, Italy. And she she inherited. A major section of lands that crossed the roads between the holy Roman empire and the papacy at a point where those two entities are in a major dispute, and she ends up coming down on the side of papacy the papacy, but she's literally in the middle, she's not just in the middle in the electrical political terms. She holds the roads and for twenty years, she was the primary military support of three successive popes in military battles with the holy wrote with a single Holy Roman Emperor Henry V about the it's called the investiture controversy. It's really a conflict between the two that's literally over who has the right to choose the ships. And other figures in in specific areas. But it's also a battle over who has the difference between secular and religious thority, which is going to come out on top. Matilda's a major political political military figure in Shasta was a military commander for forty years. Which you just don't expect and Hayes describes says that he thinks she may. In fact, be the most skilled military commander of the time and just to put that in context, she's a little bit younger than William. The conqueror took we tend to think his pretty skilled military commander, and they're actually untouched. She actually sends him an embroidered where banner that she murdered herself. So she could do that. William, the conqueror probably didn't do embroidery on the side, right? Forth, ought to send it to somebody, his gift Mitchell does a pretty interesting character. She just fought me every step of the way every chapter I tried to put her in. She just took over and she ultimately ended up in a little section of her own. Until the warriors who else in the book, can you can you enlighten us on give us just the briefest of maybe teaser trailers to, to look forward to reading the book woman, named Kiani who was Alexander? The greats older half sister and led armies in her on, right? That one that one kind of knocked me off my chair when I discovered her. Who else it'd be intriguing? Unexpected. How is that we hear all the palm circumstance of Alexander? The great turns out he's gotten older half sister that just not even a little. It's not like classicists don't know about her. I mean she shows up in the texts. And she actually goes into the field as part of the. The inner shuffling. That happens is people try to gain control of his empire after his death she's involved in that. She dies in that, but yeah, but amazing you hear about Alexander the great, but unless you're in that narrow little world that reads those particular texts you don't know about her. Another one baffled, buffalo calf road woman, schon where you're who fought at what we tend to call the battle of Rosebud river, the schon, call it the battle, where to curl saved her brother. And then she also fought at little Bighorn. So again, someone you don't care about even though. You know about that footnote, the battled loop regarding maybe a footnote, depending on the kind of book, you're reading. Writing the book. Exactly where you're with all of these different characters real and, and born of myth. What matters about the role of the woman warrior, about the woman in combat the woman carrying a weapon is as you put it. I think why is that figure important? Impart. It's big. 'cause there is this assumption that she doesn't exist or the only in what John, Keegan who is really important. Military historian, basically the only one that women didn't fight except for a few insignificant exceptions. And then he said, and then they never in any military since men. The question is, how many exceptions, do you have to have before it starts being an exception and looking at women in this way you in fact, see that they're not exceptions over the course of time, even if they are in the specific place. So it's important just for remembering that women did fight as part of our own ongoing discussions about women in the military, but it's often also important because it's part of this bigger since putting women back into history. You know, you add half the population back in, and it changes the story. And that's true of war as well. As math or any of the stem issues. Absolutely. All these male dominant disciplines, or, or scenes that we think of as we're still waiting for him to come on the same. When, in fact it's, it's all ready happened. We just haven't been told narrative route. And when you are told they're not there, then you don't see them. The other issue. Thank you so much for speaking. Thank you. Well, if you want a counter to Toler approach the front table has you covered with Alex Rosenberg's latest from MIT press. How history gets things wrong the neuroscience of our addiction to stories which argues that will never comprehend history as long as we continue, turning it into a story food for thought, which will hear more of later, in this episode from feminist vegan, advocate Carol j Adams, but I looked past the frontier with coop. Assistant manager Atlanta Jones in search of what remains and why when good books go on sale. What's expensive book that I've wanted to buy recently? Thinking and being book I was interested in. This is good thinking in being and thinking about the price and being astonished at how expensive it is. A lot of people, that's a lot of money including me. So I think a common misconception insight really a misconception. I don't know if it's misconception, but a common thought when you enter place, any books are really, but especially perhaps a place like the seminary, call that specializes in titles from university presses which we won't get into now. But are often for reasons known and unknown very expensive. A lot of labor time a lot of research time, and a lot of editing time that goes into the production of university press book Leinna as, as a book editor as well. Precise insight into that. Is that right? So you really know why we're ascribing this value to books, or is a reason thera. You can always tell when there's a paid copy editor on board with a project, and it usually makes the book better. But there's also you know, if you're talking about works that are either in translation or that have passages that have been translated as part of the research. There's translation fees. There's foreign rights fees and stuff. So there, there really are a lot of things tied up in the cost of university press book, which is not always apparent the casual browser. We're here today not to talk about it's the front tip where we're standing now. But also at the front of house front of store, some books, that are marked down, and you're going to tell us why and what those books are called. Yes. Exactly. Yes. It's the remainder carts. This is just an abandoned cart, but I've put some remainders on but yeah here at the front of the star. We have various sales sections. Some better signed than others. And I just wanted to point, you around the different things that we have in reasons why they may have ended up here on sale, despite us. You know, fully valuing the book, this is not trying to undercut anyone this is not trying to light out some form of labor that's gone onto the book. There are other reasons why these books are lower price, so to these I pulled brand Luther Andrew pedigree from penguin, press, and EastWest street from Naf by Philippe sands got a couple of these in this category. Alexei of secondhand time, of course, Nobel prize literature, and then another Luther book Martin Luther renegade in profit. Throwing a boat here. What's wrong with Luther? He's all he's just remaindered all over the place. He's a controversial guy. But both these Luther books were massive when they came out in hardcover, and now here we have renegade improv Lindahl Roper from Random House that one is marked down from forty two nine ninety eight and despite having are fantastic sales here in hard cover. I think what happened to this is probably they pushed out the paperback for both of these Luther books sales have been going so strongly in hardcover paperback comes out that immediately, people want the paperback rather than the hard cover and despite the really high and quick sales. The publisher has a lot of hardcover stock that needs to get turned over to somewhere else wants the paperback comes out, and our customers are allowed to kind of take advantage of that, by getting this heart markdown hardcover stock that the publishers trying to they're trying to make room in their warehouses for, for the paperback or new brand new releases Luther. Not having that hard time of it led to the reformation hardcover book sales looking good. So good. In fact, that the publisher had faith in Luther enough to print more copies than than upping necessary. Right. Okay. Yes. And then there's the. This new stock of books that we are just in the process of cycling out onto our into our sale sections. These are stock from the Indianapolis Christian theological seminary, which had a fantastic bookstore attached to it for many, many years and believe the bookstore. Portion of it was closed down late last year early last year. Sorry, late last fiscal year in our books. And they were looking for a place that the stock could go and still be, you know, shared among people who really value it. So we brought their inventory up here to sell and a lot of it is, you know, older additions of things things I have some, you know, yellow pages some shelf ware, but as you can see lane Pagel's for aid, totem taboo, William James varieties of religious experience. These are prime books that still have a big audience. So we were able to bring them in and sell them at sale price, much to the benefit of our customers. Two and it's speaking in misconceptions this afternoon. But another understandable misconception. Is that the seminary Cobb is, in fact, attached to a seminary, which one point our history, we were, but no longer we still have. However. Notable theology section and then world religion section. So these books do have a home here that books like this with the continuing closing most Christian bookstores no longer do one more that I wanted to point out here is a book called an history of the corruptions of Christianity into volumes by Joseph Priestley would definitely sounds like a made up off their her religious book. But this is from a so-called publisher called forgotten books, and they do a lot of basically FEC simile reprinting books that are in the public domain. So as you can see this is more or less a digital scan of a manuscript from many decades ago, not sure when but you know that the S's look like Fs it's old enough that, that that's happening. And you got that thing it's not even a key on a keyboard anymore. Coffee stain or fake blood or anything like that. It's probably -mongst blood. Yeah. So these will be a digitally scanned and then printed up with this horrendous cover any any book that you get from forgotten books is going to have this torn kind of manuscript and half leather bound cover with a seal. Really, just pay a graphic designer like ten more bucks to make it better. But as which is this is unsurprising, but they are non-returnable because they're just printed as one off someone replaced, the book, they print it. And I mean it's fantastic, that these things are out in a veil -able in the world. So it's fantastic that these books are made available out into the world. But when we when we do bring them into the store because they're these one off printings of these books in the public domain. We once we buy them, we have them pass them onto a customer. So sometimes they. Until there. Yeah. When you put it in their back when. Exactly. Yeah. So sometimes as with any book, that's on our shelf for a long time. It just needs to find a new home mclearn shelves forgotten until it's forgotten again. Which I did. And we had to turn the recorder back for exactly. Yeah. Well, this, this isn't wonderful spot end all these would be forgotten books, if not for booksellers like you, Elaine. Thank you. Well with all the new words, we're learning on this episode of open Stax just though we've stumbled onto Sesame Street before I go looking for a friendly muppet to talk books with. Here's another the word of the day is galley or advanced reader copies, also known as arcs whatever you call them books that publisher sent out before they're even close to being reminded that is before, they hit our shelves help booksellers, especially know what it is. We're selling and fill our lives and cars with an unparalleled excitement. And oftentimes embarrassment for taking longer to read them than frankly, seems possible. Let alone practical, for instance, I've had a copy of animal wise, five Virginia Morell on my shelves since two thousand twelve that I still haven't so much as cracked or passed on. Why because there's a fascinating looking chapter on dolphins. For more incredulous reading material, we asked our staff, what? They couldn't wait to read it managed somehow to put off until now. What's that? What's strike that? They've still gone read, what they sure do sound good. So what's the problem? I begged for copy of novel. Sounds southern fiction in the age of rock and roll the moment, I saw it in the Columbia catalog year. So go, and I felt up on the begging with more begging. And then when I finally received it, I brought the book with me to book, expo it stayed in a hotel, and went not plane with me. And then later, we booked an event with author, we had the event, I didn't go, I still only read a few pages and why. Well, in addition to horrible, book, AD, I think I continue to worry that this author wrote the book that I intended vaguely covers so many things I suspect, you know, by now or very close to my heart or soul, or whatever, like southern fiction rock and roll, Elvis on records and so on. And moreover, it points towards an essential connection between southern literature in American music, which I two c particularly in ebbs. Lum, apps, lem which, I note is not covered in this book, perhaps, I feel to like my preliminary, quote unquote research is not yet complete. I must read. More Faulkner, O'Connor and get deeper into lead, Billy before I can properly absorb this work who knows for now. It's shelved my Elvis collection. Waiting university of Texas press kindly, sent me a copy of Joseph sky, bells, six memos from the last millennium in twenty fifteen a book. I was sure would be a delightful. Read the certainty. I haven't lost despite my having read, one hundred some odd book since receiving, my copy, six memos for the next millennium by Tele Calvin was one of my favorite works of criticism. Full stop despite the title overselling number of memos Calvino, ultimately composed, we are missing consistency sky bell calls. The conceit a cosmic comic baker's half dozen in reverse in it in his memo on lightness Calvin. Oh, quotes Valerie's, wonderful line. One should be light like a bird and not like a feather. I share this, because it should be shared not, because it necessarily relates to the book at hand. The eunuch tradition is one of commentary criticism, the work of commentary Lucid's books, one loves and revere. The critic might find a book ultimately wanting the commentator knows that what is wanting if anything is in their own ability to find meaning in or make sense of the text sky bell, a novelist with a great reputation. Although I have not read as fiction promised to bring a novelist perspective to great stories. The final memo is about the four rabbis who entered an orchard the pardons, which remains one of the most powerful and provocative stories of ever read. Why have I not red sky bells take clearly I must read it next. Christopher catching. This land figures based on articles for Harper's. It's kind of promises to be the commits use of public lands in the American west really say. I guess, similar vein environments. Strive? Vance compu- recall. Very visits. Horizons low visitor really? Archy dreams in the United States. I really like. And so when we say, this Leslie Jamison book of essays the exams published in two thousand fourteen is a book I read into sixteen and one that has really stayed with me some parts of it. I find a lot of things about the essays problematic. Particularly the Davison uses empathy as guys for telling stories that she seems to happen tiredly, no right to tell I feel a little gross about some of the as in the book, particularly the one in which she attends a support group support conference for sufferers of more gallons disease, someone who doesn't suffer from more gallons disease, and who wants to use it as a matter metaphor for her own kinds of suffering. She's the worst kind of tourist in that room. But a lot of the is in the book are really remarkable, the title, essay and the final essay in the book, especially titled grand unified theory of female pain, the essays I find most compelling and least problematic in the book are the ones in which Jameson talks about her own life and experiences. She published a memoir into thousand eighteen that I was incredibly excited to read called the recovery. Thing talks. And it's aftermath, but I still haven't gotten around to reading that one one of these days. Well, I mean as professional bookseller is our job to read every single book that has sent to us of the hundreds of galleys and arcs that our shelves. So obviously, when I take them home, I make it a priority. God no on the failure. I don't read any, and there's so many that I haven't gotten to yet wonderful and terrible thing once. Wonderful and terrible at sums it up to me well around the publication of her book, the ring of truth. Wendy Doniger revealed to us, the constellation size narrative and hoax of expectations centered on the diamond ring diamond company when they have the glut on the market produced by the enormous productivity of the South African mines at the end of the nineteenth century invented a new miss in nineteen thirty eight you can put a day on it. There was a, a woman who in a public relations from that invented the idea that you really have to have a diamond engagement ring. And if you didn't it meant the guy didn't really love, you know what it ever had a diamonds before the late nineteenth century beers. Invented the idea that everyone had always had diamond engagement rings that you had to have one and people followed it there. People's this day believe it's a very old custom. And of course you have to have a diamond ring. We tend not to associate engagement rings with hamburgers, but feminists vegan advocate activists and independent scholar, Carol j Adams sees and eats things differently throughout her groundbreaking career, and in her latest books, including protests, kitchen, burger, and even vegans die Adams encourages us to rethink our individual eating habits as collective social and political movements, if we think of books as nourishment, what lessons might we learn over a plate of say, stop the wall, taco salad with fire and fury. Also for more recipes and revolutions we turn to Carol Adams in conversation with journalist Marla rose at the call last fall. Of course, that devoted November twenty sixteen was devastating and one morning in December two thousand sixteen. I thought I know what we need to right. We need to write the anti-trump diet. We were very lucky. There was an editor who loved it, but he, he suggested protests kitchen because we weren't just criticizing Trump. We shouldn't situate the book that only the problem was only Trump. The problem is not Trump. The problem is eleven on the Republican members on the judiciary. The problem is Brexit in England. The problem is the right wing gaining surgeons and seeing a phobia in Europe. So we needed to wide in this, this is the book, you can give people to say this is why I'm vegan social Justice thing, but it was also written for vegans to help articulation isn't isn't like what? Foodie weeding. Thing we wanted to show that you can play with your food. And this was my sister's idea. She said Carol, you've gotta have some sort of Trump to dinner and so we had Briana Clark rope in this very talented Canadian chef she has provided. So we call them resistance meals, end of bonus. Trumped Trump say, Tom a lot more on. Drain the swamp, kitchen cabinet compote. Stop the wall. Fire and wall taco salad with Aaron fury. Elsa. Tiny little types tiny little. Tiny little chocolate nut cherry thumb print cookies. I wonder who those referring to. That's. Talk about size but I couldn't help talk about those thumbs. And the final one was impeached. Crumble. I mean part of protests kitchen was to try to say, look progressive. It's great we're we're we. We are so fired up since the election. And we're doing all these good thinking. But could you look and see that when you talk about the Paris accords what you're eating at dinner? You're either siding with Trump in leaving the Paris accords, or you are, stopping helping to stop climate change their yes, protests. The big things think locally, but think locally not local war, think, locally what, how are you every day, contributing or not the climate change? If this is your wedge issue, and in burger, which I loved writing was so much fun because I had decided that I was going to undo the hamburger narrative, that's part of American history. And I was going to restore the cow to the story and all, but one of the things I, I look at is. That methane, isn't measured in a lot of environmental studies, because methane disappears in twenty years, and a lot of environmental studies one hundred years out. But when you add methane, which, of course, a cow is contributing to and methane. You know, the, the methane swamps almost of North Carolina last week that everybody started hearing about when you had that stopping eating animals dairy is really one of the best thing you can do. I mean it is a boycott. So try to have these conversations. These are things who care about this is how veganism also cares about that. Yeah. And you know, it's kind of interesting because the world's most vulnerable people, also the ones who will be the most severely impacted by the consequences of climate change and. But at the same time, veganism often get settled with the notion that elitist and. Not inclusive, you know. And I think that there is some ownership we could take elements of that. When people say, you absolutely must have a six hundred dollar high speed blender in order to be a, you know, a healthy vegan or get into the health veganism aspects of without realizing that so much fresh food is not available to impoverish people and we live in a racist society. So anyway, I would love to hear your thoughts this charge of veganism being. Elitist. Well, it's a historical, first of all, because one of the things we were looking at in protests kitchen. Sorry for the thing restless person. In interviews with people who voted for Trump. They were more likely to say that the nineteen fifties was a better time than now and it got me thinking, well, the fifties oppression of lesbians and gays they're fired from federal and state government, because they thought that they would be they would be more likely to be able to be blackmailed as communists. Jim crow and hostility to. Integrated suburbs. So what was true about the fifty? So that's when factory farming really comes of its own, it's between nineteen fifty and nineteen sixty I learned riding burger that we switch from a country, mainly dependent on dead. Pigs eating so-called pork to dead cows, and that happens between fifty and sixty it'd been happening since the nineteenth century. But that's when hamburgers fast food so car culture, the notion that we have always been eating this food. Anyway is. Elitist, white colonialists the, the requirement to that fifty percent of your food come from animals and animal products. That's the nineteen fifties, we're still fighting that whenever somebody says where do you get your protein that is what we sell to the four basic food groups of the nineteen fifties? So the fifties is with us in ways, we don't recognize. That we wanted to expose we wanted to expose the racism of dietary recommendations. You know, the whole issue now about lactose. Is that the majority of the world can't digest it, but they're called lactose intolerant? Lactose normal. When you flip that and say, there were no cows on the land. That's North America till colonialism. Mesoamerican culture, native American cultures. They didn't eat the amount of me that we're that we're eating these days. So what suddenly we're being told veganism his white, you know, meeting and dairy is wide. That's why the right wing's claiming it. Have you seen that neo-nazis claim both dairy and milk as symbols for themselves? There's a reason for that, you know, you read some commentators, and they say, oh, Fleck, the Facebook light fixtures taking all these things, they're not there, signaling. Yeah. Ling because these things already were race based and, and so to answer the question. Sometimes I may ask, what about food? Desert's vegans did not create. They're trying to help solve food desert's. But this notion that somehow it's why I was interviewed by somebody from England a journalist. Well, what about big this, and being what I said, well, who you reading, you know? You're showing your ignorance here in that. You're only reading the fouling these white vegans. There is a whole rich culture of vegans of color. And you should be interviewing them and talking to them because this is not a white movement, and you're helping to suppress voices by asking that question. Let's just look at what vegans are doing in their own community. Looked at Brenda. Sanders in Baltimore, completely transforming what's happening. They're creating the vegan soul food. Baltimore vegan soul food. Fifteen thousand people went to the MAC down the first MAC and cheese competition. And also making a say Thanh and, and other great foods and community gardens. I mean it's a great model. So that's how we begin food, the food Justice after that, all we have to do is look around it when people are already doing there are examples of this kind of great work, that recognizes that food Justice clues veganism share. I mean, the, the we learned, how many of the nine million pigs, who live in North Carolina, minus the three thousand or five thousand who died, the nine million pigs. And how many of them are situated near low income and, and people of color millions of chickens if we aren't overwhelmed by what's happening now. We're not reading the news, but on the other hand, we should not spend our lives being overwhelmed by what's happening now we have to find. A some some balance, but we should stop. We should step away. And I in fact, I even put on my Facebook page. How do you step away, and we put we listed all the things get said, also not listening to the news. I don't. Yeah, I read online, because there's something about hearing that information coming in. And I think cooking is very healing thing, and that we need to bring people over, even if we're making the Trump say tunnel orange or whatever if you don't know how to cook learn if you have the capacity, because even simple meals competing is a great rhythmic thing. You're chopping even washing. They encourage writers to always step away. You know, some writers pre this date would would would sweep because it was so with Nick or iron or go for a walk. And I think one way I feel. With anchor. Is I right. About nineteen eighty five. I thought, wow, this sexual, you know, it wasn't sexual politics of meat at that time. Wow. This book is really angry. Who's could read this? You know, I'm asking everybody else to deal with my Inger, and wouldn't it be nice to take the inker, but make disappear explicitly and handed over for people to find their own ink? Anger is a philosophical concern. It's a positive thing. It's telling us something and so to leverage anger into protests. Kitchen was sort of, like I mean, really I thought I have to do something I don't wanna disappear and even less. I mean I could not sleep last night. And all I could think of was Cavanaugh, Cavanaugh Cavanaugh, and feeling like what does one person? Matter. And then you wake up and find out to people matter, you know, it was like there's the answer. We don't even know how we're going to change the world, right? We just have to believe in our right to change the world and have a few tools to do it. Read with us next time on open stacks. We'll hear from Florence door on novel. Sounds book, Alex keeps me to get to what books, have you been putting off and why tell us about it. Seriously? We'll make us feel better on social media or drops a line at podcast at some coop dot com. Got a union police edit market type. And also, Rosen's metaphysics in ordinary language. I bought a copy of Laura winters book, mud house, Sabbath. I am currently writing a book review of her more. Recent book the dangers of Christian practices. Sums it up for me. Well around the. Is last words, we're an unfunny joke. I guess.