Future Ecologies presents: Back to Earth Queer Currents
Hey folks. Thank you so much to everyone who took the time to respond to our little listener survey. We loved reading everything you had to say and how you feel about our direction as podcast. Thank you for all the poems, the fantastic recommendations, the suggestions, and the sweet words of encouragement. But most of all, we appreciated the chance to learn a bit more about you listening to this nerdy show of ours from all over the planet. and. Right here on the sailor sea. It fills our hearts to know that these stories and all the guest voices. We've had the honor of bringing to you are inspiring. So many people in so many different ways. Season three is almost here. Thank you for your patience. So we're going to officially closed the survey. That's Ed. We love hearing from you. You can always reach us through the contact form on our website future colleges dot net. Today. Excited to bring you another podcast that's been inspiring us over the summer. From the Serpentine Galleries and the corresponding serpentine podcast. The series back to Earth is a sonic collage of art and discussions with art makers responding to climate emergency and how we situate ourselves within this deeply entangled world. Among. So many other things this episode deals with orchids wildness de colonial clearness, the apocalypse and the meaning of Queer Ideologies. struck a chord with us. And it is a lot sexier than anything we've ever made. So Fair warning. Enjoy. This episode includes explicit content including references to sexual activity. Serpentine podcast. Back. To. Our. Hey Victoria. I'm thinking of you. Are Coming episode. Of Athens. Not at the beach, but the rocks of the sore. It's about a half hour drive from the city center. Can you hear the waves Welcome to the Serpentine podcast back to Earth I'm your host victorious and I'm an artist and this back to Earth podcast series is all about exploring the ways that artists are engaging with the climate emergency. Today's episode is a little bit different today I'm joined by Kosta Stassinopoulos who is part of the b-actor team at the Serpentine Galleries Victoria. It's so nice to hear your voice. I've been sending you little love messes and I've been enjoying so much this processes. Is. Donate to hear your voice. I. Am so excited to speak to you to co host with you. In this episode, we are going to be talking about things that can be considered under the term of Queer Ecology and I think that before we go into the episode, we should just take a moment and dissect what we mean what we could mean or what we don't mean don't know what is clear ecology. What do those things mean together, right? I mean Queer College aiding like. These two words together and it opens so many possibilities but at the same time I want to acknowledge that it's actually also. Quite mundane in a very interesting way because. We're not reading here to insert on episode that is sprinkled with very dust as much as I love glitter. This is not what we're here to do. So, by way of introduction assistant curator of life program at the Serpentine working on the general ecology projects and clear college as an area that feels very natural to me, and I know that this is a problematic term. But I'm I'm embracing all the problematic that go with it, and this is the way that leads my life in my work. It's not an insert into a program diversity targeting should never be sued the way that we were working addressing all of the complexities of our existence just like imagining queer world not be that difficult to stack to take. Let's break it down like a city as. A system of many different components that they all interact with each other. Words in Term Queer. Also is a term. Dodd is a huge umbrella for so many different people. So again, you have a space that does not hold absolutes in there. There are so many different colors in so many different you in Susan there. So putting these together, that is actually something quite rich definitely, and I think that so much of the reframing that needs to happen the queering that needs to happening of the kind of field of ecology has to do with moving away from absolutes moving away from our. Very, human need to classify things and create these false dichotomies to separate ourselves from nature. Two separate classifications from each other. When actually what really we need to focus on the relationships between things and something I've been thinking recently is how the relationships between things are just as if not more important than the things themselves, which is something that we are totally blinded to with our human need for in recognition and drawing lines around things. So I was thinking how can you disrupt or at least problem ties visions of queasiness? Feel like with an ulcer one unified vision of a clear ecology. Envy's amazing since then. What we can call the queer community are ecosystem is ours pfeiffer as the ecosystem of this planet. Victoria. What do you see? Ethic Hayes which I struggled through to consciousness. Smells of moisture. Pick vegetation. Soil. would. Decay. textures of ground beneath me. Things with six or eight legs crawling on my skin. Eating. NESTING. Or trying to reach the other side. I opened my eyes to early morning. Shake off my guests. A struggle up from where I am lying down Brushed by giant burn. There is a person in the middle distance. I can't make out their face in the glare of the Sun has it illuminates their auburn hair. I have a feeling. They are giving me a faint smile. As I, instinctively do to them. I have been here before. The sunset spire to the sky. It floods landscape and catches jewelled flashes of color deep into the forest. I looked towards my feet. And see what looks like a trampled flour in the soil still has anything. It looks as though it had complex pedal structure. Opening and twisting. And Iraq destined with tips that flash red like violence. Like sex endanger. I think of orchids twisting Rowntree's. Felt that in every single cell of my body can't you're meant to Sweetie I love how you talk about strangling and this thing. Before as thank you, I mean it really I was so inspired by my research into orchids for this piece because they. have so many different I mean they've been around since dinosaurs since before the continents separated and have evolved so many different ways of reproducing and having different relationships with different species that are erotic and deceptive I mean they. They're the perfect jumping off point to explore gender sexuality and eroticism and Power Dynamics and I think this brings me perfectly into a conversation that I had with one of my favorite thinkers Ama- Josephine Budge Ama- is a speculative writer artists, curators and pleasure activist. She's currently doing a PhD which takes a Queer de colonial approach to challenging climate colonialism in Sub Saharan Africa with a particular focus on inherently environmentalists pleasure practices in Ghana, which is where her family is from. Before we got into her incredible work exploring race art ecology feminism, I just wanted to ask her her perspective on the sensuality and eroticism of flowers. So when I said my day, this might be a question I mean any kind of looked around my house and have these beautiful long stems if pussy willows front of me and I thought Oh, it's pussy willows one hundred percents. It's because they call pussy willows, but there's just something so i. mean of course, they're not actually flowers while they flower but if you're not familiar pussy whether it's kind of like branches and this wonderful little like Sherry buds all them and they're so soft and a very white then they turn. Into, a beautiful acorn Ni tone the long keep you can keep them indefinitely dry without losing their feel so that this kind of like bunny rabbit is but. These tiny buds and the contrast between the branch and the soft bite and how that kind of velocity and they also kind of look a little bit like. Those beads that you? There's anal beads. But kind of like soft ones. You know just as just about how contrast the fog and the kind of. This kind of way of of having so many multiple dimensions that are both hidden and revealed at the same time. Yes. I've been doing a lot of walks and I've been looking so much at flowers and plants and flowers especially I mean there's such a incredible variety that exists in the British summertime but they really I think like are such a perfect way to express like the multiplicity of gender sexuality that exists for me. I think that lilies have always been the most explicit flower a statement is always. Looks Wet. Looks wet and it's so it's got that kind of dusting powder as if it's kind of like just excreted expulsion and then it's kind of dry and in this powdery like on the famed residue. Everywhere. Yes. Yes. Gets. Every way it's like contagious. Words us, but it's A. Little Bit. You know if we impregnated by plants, lilies of be like these hyper in pregnant. The. Bloom is about as high as my chest. Vertically symmetrical with a complex structure. On the top half. Five long ruffled puddles shoot up into the air and spiral back. Like they're reaching for the sky. or preparing to come down onto me. On the bottom half. One huge entirely Red Lebaron stretches out to me like a bottom lip which listens with a sticky substance. Either side of this many things whisker like pedals which trail on the ground at least a meter long each. The whole thing makes me think of a large vein wet mouth. Open expecting. So career Collins uses a collective. Higher biles myself, and then came back. Together, through a shad attention and also attraction and pleasure and joy in thinking through the abundance of ecology and how it is in every way. So called ogies is appropriate. That's about bringing attention to the quick aspect of nature but it's also about pushing back against that. I do of Quinson humans being seen as unnatural. It's like saying well, actually, you know we echoed everywhere else across this ecosystem set perhaps living as a species who only did monogamy and only do Sonoma tippety is incredibly unnatural compared to every other species. We find divergent forms of cohabitation of copulation of child-rearing in every species. Hours that has said that it needs to be this one way, and so it's about drew attention to those things but it's also about finding joy and so it's this incredible way to think about scale to think about attentiveness to think about being humble and learning from I'm really refine that joy and pleasure but also learn whether it's Don's moved or whether it's more ways of surviving and ways of navigating rapidly changing environment. In lonesome reached from these things that we see as being. So Small and insignificant, and yet without them, there would be no AAs very literally. What if it was all just the same. What if we all just become one thing? What if we're all just the same thing? What if we were the same being? Victoria. To Sea again. Like away from the city at a time when most people restricted during the And came here for this I and that fell transformative. But why? Why this kind of transformation be experienced more often. Why does it feel like transformation? Thank for many people it does. Transforming ourselves as something that everyone does for some reason, it's more. Guess Observer. Bowl and prominent for people that go against the norm and the expectations of a Hetero normative conservative culture. So. Why don't we only embrace transformation spar are very fabric of being there will be so much more liberating and fun you think. High cost us. I really wish that I could be by the see. I would love to jump into the healing energy that you speak about. I feel like there's so much that. You know myself in. I think a lot of people right now are hoping to kind of wash away or shed like real moment of transformation. To be honest, I've been really thinking a lot about. Transformation. Hair off last. Wednesday. Cut off about thirty inches. and. Friends they look like a mushroom somebody said I looked like the mushroom at the end of the world, the other day which I really loved. It's a difficult one isn't it? Because on the one hand I? Think we all seeing this massive political global transformations. Going ecological transformations. But on the other hand, it's it's really just just a volume of attention that has changed not necessarily the actual acts political dynamics themselves. La. La Movement has kind of had this latest ration- of public explosion is the start difficult. Spaces of being in a moment when everybody's kind of saying look everything's changing and those us who've kind of lift through these moments before saying well, is it really changing? What does that mean like is it? Who's it swinging Oh, and how's that actually going to result in? You know in a better world for people who are living through the ends of the current global capitalist system, White Supremacist Also what's been particularly interesting for me has been the transformation that's been afforded by working from home during quarantine actually this kind of full. Temporal shift from hyperactivity into space if enforced illness has been incredibly transformative, me intensive rethinking my priorities and wh- what my life to look like and want to feel like and how I need to kind of shift my goal goalposts a bit. In terms of how much I want to work, I, want to produce and that's been A. Really beautiful process of. A transforming my my body through. Of Yoga and just taking time. Buying houseplants and and now like. Some insane number like fifty house loves. It makes me like forty five minutes to water everything every day and then. Read, it will once a week. So there's also this kind of real. Different shift in timing and attentiveness and choosing one brings attention to. Want to hold onto you. Imagine being fig wasp who was born pregnant and born in a fake at the exact moment the flowers of that big reach maturity and begin dishes pollen. Imagine if you're only purpose was to collect bat pollen and then crawl into a different fake to pollinate its flowers. Layer eggs and then die that this could be perpetuated. Imagine. If you're only purpose Mr, perpetuate a cycle. Spurious that earlier, this is the back to Earth pocket series and Sparta back to Earth The Serpentine batteries, we have invited Jock Halberstam and microwave Nicole Miss. Bodies to curate with us a weekend of life programs that will address how we think about art activism concepts of language, the wild and how clear ca logical the colonial practices intervene and the dominant and very often hetero normative this worse on the environment and Climate Justice Michael Barr says professor interpretation of social, science and Cultural Studies at the in Brooklyn New York sees also director of the Global South Center a research center that works intersex off sociologies art and politics and the colonial methodologies. HALBERSTAM AS PROFESSOR DOUGLAS IN GENDER, Studies at Columbia University and the author of many seminal books, and there is this great sentence from one of his writings that want the Sir with you. His says wildness is worthy environment speaks back. Were Communication. Bows the penalty. Or awards collide Cultures Class and thanks for the part. I think. My work is interested in what falls outside of the category of the human and I've given the tomb wildness to these many Maine's that are on one hand controlled by human, Endeavour and conceptualized through human philosophy and yet exceed the human ability to script those arenas and so animals and plant life and all kinds of entities that fall outside of human classification could be understood as the category of the wild and my work pays a lot. Of attention to oppositional forces like order and disorder, and why we tend to think about as kind of disorderly and disorder. Eating slaw said sweeps through terrains or consciousness. In fact, it is order that is the problem with human centrists taught and disorder or wildness or Anneke or declassified. Knowledge is represent the possibility of being in different kinds of ecology and being in relationship to other ways of thinking. So I use this category of wildness and I think. That comes up in in Mark, very clearly in relationship to indigenous entity on the one hand but also in relation to the negative impact of extractive capital on the other, the term queer, and it's translations in various ways in which the term could be used for a set of non normative arrangements or frameworks you know certainly on the one hand has done enormous amount of work I. Mean I think Jack's long are Kevorkian many. Books along with Queer Color Scholarship have shown key ways in which we can think about ways to frame forms of living loving being desire for new worlds for other kinds of imaginary outside of the normative nation state or the grasp of hegemonic power I. Think it's a complicated term right in the global south in certain communities, communes of color when it's used as a universalising category and so then the effort to wild or Queer Queer. That Jack is making I think in my own work. Queer as quite a powerful word look, we'd to use it in that sense AC-. You I are becomes a way to mark the kind of episode difference of what it means to sink outside of normative contexts within the medicos trying to think beyond just the nation state. So for me look, we're allows that place of affinity communal connection, transversal horizontal affinities. INTIMACIES, political intimacies, events, social intimacy, social ecology that are not just in the gaze of the nation state and what it means to actually think way beyond the nation's date below the nation state across other kinds of affinities. The fact that market is able to take queer out of it Euro American context into the Americas where it is a force for the. D. Colonial be anti-colonial as well as the description of a whole set of sexual minority -tarian impulses it's so helpful in terms of breaking out of the deadlock off identity politics that has still the critical intensity potential off the category together you know. So in a Euro American context, Queer emerged in the nineteen nineties as a way of breaking loose from. The politics recognition that attended to lgbt efforts to simply enter into recognition through already legitimate channels, and the idea was that would mess up these epistemology in these ontological in productive in radical ways. But in fact, what's happened is because of the sort of stoltifying force liberal agendas like gay marriage, for example, queer has now just been rendered as an umbrella to. that. Allows for many different sexual minorities to cluster in the same umbrella and it lost its political charge. So the category of wildness is more useful to me personally because it offers a critique off systems of classification. The very systems produced categories like lgbt in the first place while also calling attention to a lodger climate climactic can environmental context within which the. Efforts of classification emerged in the first place. So conservation will recall was a kind of botanical project that was strongly linked with colonialism in the eighteenth century and that involved various colonial travels going around the world looking at flora fauna in people's taking notes, extracting all kinds of seeds and plant life, and then writing a narrative of the world into which everyone was. Placed, racially environmentally sexually and so on. So given that and given that that kind of civilizational script of the world wildness office within it has the potential to unmake. `unright an unthinking that script, and that for me is a kind of upgrade if you like of an earlier queer agenda, of course, nature has been used to majd lines. Pathology is sexual minorities in. fact, the earliest formulation off homosexuality was as a crime against nature. So where they classification of activity as sinful, no longer had coaches the new category was unnatural and what you find is in early quick tax from late Nineteenth Century early twentieth century a lot of authors the most obvious being someone like Oscar Wilde simply take up the charge of the unnatural and. In habit and you know in many ways that's the definition of Cam. It saying you, you think we're a natural you don't even know the half of it going all out with a kind of not just unnatural set of performances but anti natural in the world that we find ourselves in. However, we're kind of in a post natural state where no one really believes in nature anymore there isn't much laughed anyone could believe in as nature. So might book is interested in the post natural as Demane of queer and other kinds of resistant politics poetics. One hundred million years ago. The first lower appeared among giant trees and ferns orchids were among the first lowers. The first jewel of color, a world of green. And a time before animals. The various ingenious and highly specific ways Orca type of all. For their seats to trick fungi into providing nutrients in order to germinate. or to spread pollen through Mimicry and sexual deception. Or to grow in places or most can't or won't in or out of soil have been used as arguments for our higher intelligence guiding evolution. A comforting thought amongst? Chaos. And I just want to pick up on something that Jack was mentioning. I love this idea that pacalypse is not this kind of universal leising impulse and a singular event. You know it's it's easy to imagine that we have so many popular images that described that there will be this moment. Of. Kind of beyond time beyond the human and one of the things I very much learned in conversation with a number of indigenous artists and activists is really the idea on especially of working with my boot Chase Ramsey's which are gay. Oh, a filmmaker from southern Teela. Is. Now that toby has already come for five hundred years or more the ways in which the sto- pick upon territories of extraction has always been in play, and so it depends on from which vantage point one looks and sees, and which is perspectives actually show us that the Puck ellipses not the temporal future but it's kind of merging past present and future and I think Jack's category of wildness is really disrupting idea of a singular kind of normative temporarily in temporal framework for apocalypse as while. Apocalypse now, like apocalypse is always figured as an impending future that is going to arrive, and of course, we're in so many ways already in it and I think here of the work of an artist, I write about my book can monk men who is a CREE first nations autism to spirit autism from Canada. He Paints these enormous canvases in many ways repaint the history of modernist ought in a European context nonmeal the hand repaint the history of colonialism from a native perspective, and he has a one painting called the scream that of course is a reference to advise monks iconic modernist painting. But instead of having a kind of universalist a monkey Lewis figure who is screaming the anxiety of the world. He gives assistant credible canvas of Canadian soldiers arriving to take native children away from their mothers and so the scream is the how of indigenous refusal and outrage, and it's a reminder that what modernism has positioned as apocalypse as outrage as anxiety are in fact, seemed very, very differently from the perspective of the colonized, and it's that perspective that we want to attend to when thinking in much more radical ways about apocalypse and about climate. There was some kind of storm. It started falling in the forest. Lightly at first and then so thick. Seeds. So. Small. They were like dust pollen. Spores. I couldn't help breathing in choking on it as it covered the inside of my mouth. It forced me to my knees. My head to the ground. Crawling along the forest floor trying to find cover as my skin became irritated and breathing became harder and harder. I started to pitch intensely and my eyes watered. Seeds were sticking to my skin sticking to the inside of my throat. I heard joking sounds. Eventually drowned out by my own. I covered my head in my arms and curled into a fetal position. Wondering if this was how I was going to die. When I heard a strangled screaming at suddenly stopped. When it cleared. Was Gone. Well doesn't MEAN TO BE A. Why is it different being queer anywhere calls? In. The world. I think that one of the most amazing things about being queer what is that? It gives us. This kind of other perspective this other. This other standpoint to look at the world from that is not the dominant one. A view from elsewhere. So I like to say And as people, we can use this kind of peek behind the curtain. The sense that things are not what we've been told they are. There are always more perspectives out there and I think it's really Appropriate that you're on an island because this makes me think a lot about. This moment that I was going through. A break up where I was reading the doors of perception. By all Huxley and he describes humans. As Island, universes Because of the different. Places that were standing. And you know, I, think this episode of Ecology College. Can really focus on the fact that you know as we've been saying, there is only transformation and the importance of constantly pushing against our own perspectives. And tried to really think about submerged perspectives and thinking about ways in which though seeking spaces outside of the purview of capitalism are already doing to tether ourselves to each other and not I. Think has a long history obviously in queer theory, what it means to be in relational connection to each other. So this emerged perspectives was very much a way of dealing with being certain forms of Visu, -ality, or recognition knowing that looks alongside in horizontally. Rather, than vertically turning to postcolonial studies, but then de Colonial Studies as you know in Queering de colonial studies to think about the submerged or what lies below the surface as well. You know that that great iceberg so that we can also get into our own desires and so these submerged spaces art forms puncturing the homogeneity supposedly authoritarian noise space rhetoric, smoothness of the idea of liberal democracy. You know just a puncturing force as well. They think. monocultural logic against something much more diverse in Pali connected and a kind of multi tentacled being like the octopus right the that lives sometimes at the edge that this allows us to break down some of the thinking that is actually stifled us an open up new histories, new ways of telling. So I'm really trying to do that now in a new work. Called at the edge querying, complicating these spaces that have been often bound up I, think the problem with current discourses it's very humanist, not just human centric but humanist people engaged in some of the work of conservation or animal care or whatever leave intact the power relations between humans and animals I. Think. I'm trying to conceptualize in my work Mrs. Alongside Marcus work. snowden Hani hot in others is not had. We make the world a better place for non human actes. But how do we actually destroy the world that humans have built and maybe undo some of the logic having just completely locked into these systems off extraction and exploitation? I don't think there's a way fullwood I think is only away down the pocket. All already been here and being delivered could see of these discursive structures like Hetero normativity, white supremacy, the domination of the wealthy, and that's why. I'm saying we have to undo the mechanisms that keep returning us to systems within which the same people have the power over and over again in the next phase, we have to impact inhabit the arenas within which we are uncontrollable ungovernable unmanageable. We can't keep trying to say, no, no, we we want to be managed. We want to be under the purview of the nation and the state. We actually have to embrace the wild accusations, Dr Hulda minority communities, and turn them into a form off widespread dissent. What is it about being thing that makes you? Because we're all just the same. I don't want to be the same and. I am the same. This submerged world that sees speaking of that is really a part of the sexual and aren't underground on C. Term said, and it's super important to think about all of these worlds that are in the basement or the set the no asthma grant talks about it and her book. Thinking about the sea and the underwater makes me think of the way that we keep returning to the waves actually in this episode in the way that we have been talking to each other and how like without the sea and without the waves crossing the islands and without waves traveling across the see how do you know what an island? How do you know where land begins ads? So who is the one that is doing the mapping? When you can't really ignore the fact that all this land is actually surrounded by submerged swirled stop define it. I had this idea I wanted to run by. You want to give you one of my favorite quotes in letter ever I just thought about it I was like, okay of course, recording waves and sending. Victoria. Wolf. The waves and it says an enemy to the wave rises it's wells it arches its back I am aware wants more of a new desire something rising beneath me like the proud horse whose rider first spurs and then pulls him back. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. That's really beautiful. And I. Think it really points to the fact that desire is also always transforming within us. Definitely as people we can acknowledge and it makes me think about going back into what we speaking little bit about. At the beginning of the episode. This thing that all there really is his transformation. I. Think that can also be phrased as all there ever is is apocalypse. So thinking more about apocalypse I just want to go back to this conversation that I had with Alma because she has this incredible project apocalypse reading room, which you'll hear more about. As old idiom like, can we actually right or imagine something that we haven't seen or experienced which I think about a lot I think about you know at least once a week I sit in that question. And Ecology, of course, gives us more imagery more ways of being ways of reproducing ways of cohabiting of consuming another ways of decomposing ways as being. On ways to move becoming a meal. Consumable than all of the speculative fiction writers who were live right now in an has ever been alive could write about you. They really give us this on imaginable second sight of possibility would go so far say without the incredible ecological experiments. That we see the results of all around us every day. Science fiction could not expect the fiction could not exist. I definitely have always felt like science fiction has been preparing for the OPPO clicks. These kinds of books. That I thought word or think would contain the knowledge that I need to not only survive a kind of breakdown, an economy and society but also to build something different that really feeds into the reading room, which was a physical installation free word last year, and is now virtual installation online. So it's a curated collection of books that we might need to change the end of the world. So the survival guide that I chose to bring the apocalypse reading room was the. Trying to by trying to close this really important phrase that I keep coming back to you, which is the name is the guest of the substance. Oh. Wow. That's exquisite. Isn't it and I? Think it is just really. It also talks about perspectives as temporary lodging places and how important it is to really like sit in transformation and realize that all of their is is transformation. All of these categories, all of these names that we give to things you know they are. Temporary whether that's temporary because of our lifetimes our humanity or because we have the sense to recognize that impairments is the only thing that's permanent. It's really to me the root of what it means to do clear. Ecological wealth is to remember to be humbled by the way that we see things now not owning is probably not the way we will see things even tomorrow or in a few years or at the end of life. But. is also just one way of how something being seen in this moment throughout time and into Specie. The way that I see rain is incredibly different to how an aunt my see rain. How a microbial Rosa might perceive the soil that lives in the coming down Peru denser moist an orbits things are true in my truth is no more important than another truce in for me it's that complete shifting of hierarchical understanding of what knowledge is and what truth is that is the key learning that we have to do is a species from thinking with Kuirokawa Jeez. The flower itself is three meters tall. The smell is so strong it stings my nostrils and I bathe in it. My senses field, there are limits. Urine to go forward still. Colors I have never seen an impossible architectural shapes which evoke femininity and Masculinity and Heaven Earth and light, and dark, and young, and old and sensuality, and becoming opening and twisting away. Opening and beckoning that smell that makes me forget what I am that makes me want to return to the state I have known before that cannot describe to with words. I wanted. I want to be. I feel that in some way I have already been. But I. AM already at. and. Have come back to you. On the believe at the all the pleasure and love and joy and kindness and beliefs that we manage to hold in a lifetime remains leaves lily like residues all over the couples this. I wake up. With pollen smashed across my hands and face. The way that you walk the slam the way that you. Touch a leaf does liver as do it's the way that we connect to each other but again, going against the human focus and that's all think about how we connect to other spaces. This whole thing about how we come back to what we perceive different I think that but we can really gain from all of the knowledge that has been shared in this episode is the importance of stepping outside of our perspectives pushing against our perspectives being comfortable outside of knowledge pushing boldly ahead into the realm of not knowing because that is around that we actually you know occupy. Convince ourselves otherwise, what is it about being thing makes you have been Because, we're all just the same and. I don't want to be the same. But I am the same. This serpentine backed Earth podcast is presented by me Victoria Sin and Costas Stassinopoulos and produced by Katie Colleen for reduced listening. Thank you so much for having made. This has been so amazing. Thank you for being here and I WANNA. Thank you actually get through the holy solder worth Keta Callen, and of course, all of our participants who have made this episode. So Special Jock Halberstam and my gonNA bodies and Joseph Buds who served with us. So generously I really WANNA. Thank you. Victoria. Thank you for sharing thoughts and feelings with me. I've been doing it all this time and I want to keep doing it for ages to come. Yes. Well, thank you for being here and. I feel very privileged to be able to have been able to share my work in this episode. What we've been listening to you and dipping in and out of is a sound piece called and at the Pentacle the foot of a mountain originally commissioned by site gallery, Sheffield for the exhibition rewriting the future. Sophia Maria Sonya dire ours Lemaire. And it is also currently on show at the tank. In Shanghai as of the exhibition more and more and more I mean really came out of the research that I did in Octavia, Butler's papers at the Huntington in La in her research into the Amazon and EPA fights, and we will return to it now. I step forward to meet its presence. At. Inhale the carbon dioxide I exhale. Feel exhale. Inhale. Anti Inhale, and my breath within defines my body and its limits. And I exhale my breath without me circulates through the air to breathe by everything that comes before me and everything which comes after me. And I inhale as many molecules as there are stars and all the galaxies and the visible universe. And my three billion billion billion atoms intricately arranged lose their name to their individual parts. And I exhale and the bloom I face inhales me completely. And I go through your leaves. Theory or hundreds of thousands of microscopic mounds. I'm absorbed into your cells. I'm broken down into my atom aspire chloroplast. Into Oxygen. Into Carbon. Into electrons circling protons and neutrons. Into infinite things. Into things which make up and move through everything. Into the same things which I have always been. Into the same thing it has always been. If I had always been the same thing. You, came from the. Back into the The. Same. The same.