Jeremy Strong - 'Succession'
Hi everyone and thank you for tuning into the three hundred thirtieth episode of awards chatter. Hollywood reporter's awards podcast host Scott Feinberg and my guest. Today is a true actors actor who has been widely celebrated for his work on the New York stage in four best picture. Oscar nominees two thousand twelve Lincoln for Steven Spielberg and zero dark thirty for Kathryn. Bigelow two thousand fourteen Selma for Duval and two thousand fifteen. The big short for Adam McKay and since two thousand eighteen on HBO's Massively Popular and acclaimed drama series succession on which he plays. Kendall Roy the second oldest son of a billionaire media mogul and for which he won the best actor in a drama series critics choice award back in January Germany strong over the course of our conversation the forty year old and I discussed his roller coaster journey from hardscrabble Boston neighborhood to Yale University to struggling New York actor too prominent and appreciate it thus spion how interactions along the way with Ian Home Daniel Day Lewis Phillips Seymour Hoffman and helped to shape the sort of actor that he wanted to be how close he came to missing out on his part in. Mackay's the big short which in turn ultimately led to his involvement in succession the pilot of which McKay directed and the series of which McKay AP's and how he very nearly wound up playing a different sibling plus much more and so with great thanks to Germany strong with a plea to our listeners. To stay home during this difficult time and further ado. Let's go to that conversation. Jeremy Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast and in Corona era. We've been beginning each episode by just asking are yes and how they're weathering this insanity so thank you start there. Yeah weathering it. I feel my wife and I are in Denmark and feeling really really fortunate to be here. We are in a small village on the coast. Denmark called field which is beautiful sort of discordant with time a pretty idyllic place. So we're weathering it very. Luckily I would say and also with a with a really heavy art for hand. Well I guess what I'd like to do now if we can. Let's jump back in time to a happier time. Where were you born and raised? And what are your folks do for a living? Well Oh good usually goes right into this sturm and drawing of Kendall and so I was born in Boston. I was born in sort of in Jamaica. Plain sorta inner city Boston and grew up there and my mother was a hospice nurse and my father is a social worker. He ran something called Department of Youth Services which were juvenile jails in Roxbury Tough parts of Boston. So I grew up with with real sort of humanist parents who were both tremendous givers and really empathic people and then we moved out of Boston when I was about ten and I grew up mostly in a sort of Very Bucolic suburb Summary Massachusetts. Well it sounds like you also spent some time. I don't know if if it was also for religious reasons or just for your hobby but it sounds like you were spending some time in a church basement of all places quite a bit as a kid from what I read. This all began. Yeah I think the truth of it is I think My mother was trying to get me to join this this sort of local performing arts. I don't know what it was. I mean I think I was four or five years old. So it wasn't there wasn't much perform going on although although children are the greatest actors of all because they they don't lie and they're completely in the moment so she sorta coaxed me into joining this local group that I think was called neighbourhood children's theater down the block. And Yeah you know. I don't even Scott I don't even remember it sort of pre conscious. It's stress. It's just something that I've been doing since I was so little. And it must have just clicked. I think then it was something you know quite simply that I enjoyed and probably found freedom a greater freedom in doing would it be the case that thing. I I mean I be curious if you were you know as you got a little older school if you continued with with performing because I do know this was literally the moment where it became serious but I read in one of the things. I was reading. Prep for this that there was actually a high school trip to London. That make difference. No that's right. Wow I'm so impressed. I have these great English teachers in High School of bill and Judy plot where their names and they were also the theater directors and they are these people. You know unsung heroes incredibly passionately. Devoted to the theater as an art form and passionately devoted to engendering love of theater and acting in in kids. And so I've been part of something called The Concord Youth Theatre in the town next to where I was growing up throughout middle school elementary school and and when I got to high school you know these guys kind of introduced me to more serious plays and we did a lot of Shakespeare. Pirin Delo we did we did. Sorta stuff that was that was quite sophisticated for for for being a you know a a teenager and then they brought us to London on a trip and I remember going to see Ian Holm play King Lear. The national and and it was it was a revelatory sort of you know life altering moment. I I think I remember quite specifically the moment where lear is like naked on accommodated. Man He was you know an home is actor. You know who's a gigantic actor gigantic seismic actor and a little guy who's completely naked. Standing in the coddle theater at the national in front of you know London Society Embodying. What's arguably the greatest play ever written and and I think was just something about it that yet just to me. I said well that's worth committing your life to if you could ever work hold a candle up to a moment like that so not not that long after that. I guess you must have really made your parents and probably yourself quite quite happy by getting into jail which is no small thing and I know that you originally intended to two zero in on this this focus. What you already knew you kinda wanted to do. But so how with that being the case? Did you end up majoring in something unrelated in a way? Yeah because Yale obviously has such such a great reputation for acting mainly the drama school which is a graduate school and I got in. You Know God only knows how as an undergraduate and And I thought I would be a theater studies major. You know because I've been doing. I don't think I'd gone more than a few months in my whole life since I was five years old or something without without doing play and it was sort of my oxygen supply in my life force and you know just sort of the thing. I was obsessed with and I remember going to this theater. Studies class like the first shopping period. When you're when you're trying out classes and you know it just wasn't I don't want to say anything disparaging but it was a very theoretical academic model of acting. And you know I'd never read Stanislavsky at that point I'd never heard of Meisner. I wasn't an educated actor I was a scrappy instinctive actor which I think I still am with with fire in my belly and and you know there were some voice in me that said I needed to protect that and not get too. I'm already cerebral enough person and I just remember this guy had like this long know Russian beard and he drew a bunch of the circles of energy on a chalkboard and voice in my head. Just said run. I was probably also to be to be fair ashamed that I you know. My lack of of of sophistication about about acting which which these other kids seem to have in spades and had read the books and and you know. Of course I've since read everything and occasionally there's something in you know in that stuff that that I find Epiphanic BUT YEAH. No it was you know. I didn't understand what it was and in many many years later I was reading a Michael Billington biography on Harold. Pinter and he had any any quoted. Pinter saying this incredible thing which was the more acute the experience. The less articulate expression. And that's that's for me that's what acting is about. It's like if you can you can. If you can articulate it or teach it or you know you can only really point at it when you're doing it. It's this intense experience that that that is acute but not you can't really translated into words you just exists in you know in in the work and so while you were Yale. It's not that you were not involved with acting anymore. It's just that you did it in a very. Yeah I guess underground way right. Yeah you know what's so incredible there and I was so lucky to get to go there. They have all these little theaters in attics in basements and there was a theater in my residential college which was called Trumbull. That was a squash court called Nick Chapel and I think my first year my freshman year there I did I went through like Pacino. Phase right did every play. Pacino had ever done so I did. I did the Indian wants the Bronx. I did Huey I did. American buffalo and I did richer third that somewhere else but that was sort of that. My first First Year there but I had a you know a pretty insatiable appetite it was also and I think this is true for a lot of actors in certainly true for me. Yale was a hard place for me. I I I struggled there and I think I had a lot of insecurities. They're you know. Not Coming from a background that other students come from not having the sort of hyper literate education that that a lot of them had had and so for me. It was It was a lifeline and a sort of you know life life raft and in a way of kind of transcending all of that and disappearing into something it is a great escape and you sort of you know when it's good you just get lost in it and and disappear so that really. I think I survived there because of it and that's sort of where the need comes from. I think I think you kind of have to have a need to do it in an almost primal way. Certainly when the going gets hard you know when you're out of school but yeah no I kept doing plays and I got to do some incredible. You know that's great when you're a student you get to work on the best writing you know. I got to look back in Anger. I to do Jesus. Murad saw I to do so many plays that you know when you when you start working professionally. You don't get to do those rules you know. I think I was eighteen. I did the video. That O'Neill play Huey which is written for like a seventeen year old guy so and and you know there's so much learning that goes on a just just the discipline of you know starting at the at the beginning of a play and sort of letting letting it happen so that that's sort of your your ten thousand hours now. Was it in that same time period that you sort of arrived at what I believe to this day is is your approach which is a pretty intense when You know everyone wants to just refer to things as the method or something else but your method I want. It seems like it may be as as you as Mentioned maybe bits and pieces from a lot of different areas. But it's intense and it's a it's a gut wrenching one so I wonder if you can just explain when and how you arrived at before we talk about how you apply to any specific roles later on. It's funny because I you know I don't know that I can even place it because when I think back in college I know I always approached anything. Approach plays with a great deal of commitment and seriousness. Because I just had an innate belief that was that it was serious and I remember. Phil Hoffman us to talk about it. In terms of you know when when you're between the lines nothing else in the world matters and you have to believe that and be that committed to it but of course. I didn't you know when I was in college. I didn't and heard him say that but I think probably doing all. The theater instilled in me a sense of authority Which is the wrong word. But it's a sense of trusting myself. I guess an English major and that that sort of giving this great gift of of spending four years just reading reading reading reading reading and I developed a real love and need I think and an intellectual sort of inexhaustible curiosity and it seemed apparent to me that you needed to do more than just Work on material of the play and more than just internalized that material you needed to surround yourself saturate yourself with anything related to it with the time with with the with the world of it with with anything that might help on an unconscious level. I think inform your instincts so that probably started then and you know it's a brick Brac kind of thing I i. I certainly don't adhere to the method but I guess by now I have a pretty well. I don't I wouldn't say it's fixed because I because all I really do is sort of follow the line of intuition and so sometimes it seems like an I just entrust that you know. Sometimes certain things seem necessary to create a sense of doing. But it's it's It's definitely I guess predicated on a belief that as much as possible trying to enter into the the experience the character is having an as much as possible. Go through that experience so that you can embody it in a real way. But it's like I think I learned a lot and copied a lot from people who who I looked up to people in school. People you know actors who I who admired and you know I did. I did go and work for Daniel Day. Lewis when I graduated from college as his assistant on this movie that his wife the Great Director Rebecca Miller made. How did that? Even come about? I I read about that. This is the ballot of Jack and rose. Movie comes out and five. I mean for an aspiring actor for young actor. What could be a more extreme? It was it was very exciting. Also Scott it was also very very difficult you know because as you can imagine I think I was twenty two and Daniel had been one of my heroes since I was. I don't know I'd probably was to eleven or twelve when I saw my left foot and I had a poster of it on my bedroom wall and I tried to be Christie Brown on the floor and you know and I'm not kind of completely committed. Camille Yanic work was the thing that excited me and inspired me most. So yes. We're getting a chance to to meet the guy and watch the way he worked. And and you know try to you. Know be a ham on his coattails but it was difficult. Because I wasn't getting to I wasn't there as an actor. You know I was there to be to assist in to be unobtrusive invisible essentially and that and that ended up being An incredibly invaluable experience for me. And you know there's so much I'm not alone in in in revering him. And he's he's he's one of the most You know wonderful man but I did learn a lot. In terms of watching watching what he did to create a sense of belief and and really mainly his willingness to sort of make a fool of himself south through the grinder feel certainly put himself through the grinder. But you know it is. It's like I remember reading this book of interviews with Francis Bacon and he said all art is a game but if art is going to have any value in this modern age you have to deepen the game and I think my take away was just to see just how much that guy deepens the game and doesn't spare himself one iota of what the character has to go through and and it feels like for the you know the summons got he would hate it if I spent this interview talking about this summons that you know what you're called upon to do is is to kind of make a sacrifice of yourself. What it did was give me permission to to say fuck it. I'M GONNA I'M GONNA work. In whatever way feels like Is most going to serve the material and if that means feeling foolish if that means a set is a very it's a very social place and I think you know and Daniels not alone. There are a lot of actors that work. This way. We're in a sense there's a there's a division between your social self and your creative self and I have a belief and a wish thing to only enter into that environment in my creative self and so anything that that is going to interfere with that. I think you almost have to go on airplane mode and kind of soundproof yourself. So that you can really focus. And that's ultimately what it's about as a certain level and an acuity of focus which might come across as being intense but. I think it's just being concentrated in a sort of autonomous way. Will so people an actor who's now working at the top of the top of the game and that's more understood and accepted today than I imagined might have been when you're you know shortly after graduating from Yale shortly after this I guess that's summer. Maybe it was the summer with Daniel Day Lewis. Now you go move to New York and I think right around nine eleven and suddenly you've got to pay the bills and I wondered. How did you hope to do that? How did you end up doing that if you ended up doing that? It's not easy for a young actor. New York No. You know I think like most actors. I think you sort of have to have an almost delusional optimism. That in a sense doesn't face the facts of of of what your circumstances actually are. I think I came to New York with with hope and expectation that you know that I'd be able to get an agent that I'd be able to continue doing plays that there would be some kind of traction that coming out of Yale. Having done a lot of work already and you know there wasn't any and I got a job working in room service at a hotel called Sixty Thompson. That was downtown. That was sort of like the you know Like a hot spot at the time and I would go there at like four thirty in the morning or something on carry. They didn't have an employee for an elevator for their employees. You had to walk like fourteen flights of stairs cut carrying all the thing so so you know so stuff like that. I worked a lot of different jobs. personal assistance to people. Anything I could do to stay afloat but you know I didn't always pay the bills you know. I fucking like found a mattress on the street. I probably shouldn't say this but like at the time. It looks like a nice mattress and they just brought it down and so I grabbed with a friend because I didn't have a mattress at the time. So you know it was real. You know there was a time. Where Con Edison? Shut my power off and I had to play at that time I was doing a play in a storefront on thirty ninth street and I think they paid me fifty bucks a week and you know I didn't have any power for a little while and in the winter right I don't I. Don't you know that might be an embellishment might have been the winter but you know it was. It was difficult and I think. Honestly it wasn't the it wasn't the the instability or the uncertainty that was the most difficult or the financial aspect even though was difficult but I never had any money. So it wasn't you know wasn't different for me. Is that these circumstances ever make you question your career path where you ever at the point where you were going to. Would you have ever quit? Well that's the thing it's it's sort of the end. Ville on which you SORTA Ford yourself and I think there were. I know that there were there. Were a lot of days and times where where I felt a tremendous sense of despair and sort of being in the Wilderness and questioning. You couldn't really imagine my life if I if I didn't get to work as an actor at a certain level which is not about success or stardom. It's about getting to do you know because unfortunately you only get to do the great plays or the great roles if if you have a if you've achieved a certain level of visibility or whatever and people know that you are are going to are going to give you a chance at that so. I guess I didn't know if I would ever be given those chances but there were little crumbs along the way that I guess enough to keep sort of a sense of belief alive and honestly just my need to do. It was overpowering. It overpowered the circumstances or any sense that things might not work out. They just I think I was. Just you know doggedly determined and hell bent on it and you know a Williamstown theatre festival is a place up in the bursch you know about that came about two years in in my in New York and was like a an epidemic place for me because I got to do plays again in in a community and be part of something and be part of that sort of collective sense of imagination and and and you know a thing. You really want as an actor. I think is to kind of break your own sound barrier. You want to travel somewhere that you haven't traveled before you want to go further. You WanNa reach as far as you can and you want to move the needle for yourself and so you can only do that through great material and and so I got to go to Williamstown and you know it. Was this incredible place. Where Edward and Arthur Miller at the coffee shop and all these great actors and directors from New York are doing plays on the main stage and and that was very exciting and that gave me. I think a lot of You know that gave me wings for awhile. And a sense of a sense of belonging and a sense of possibility. That's the hardest thing is when you sort of cut off from a sense of possibility which I know so many actors so many actors are so if there if there was to be a turning point that we could pinpoint. I believe it might involve somebody who you mentioned earlier. And that's Philip Seymour. Hoffman of all people late Phelps. Can you explain how you first cross paths with him? I believe it was the first time what you were doing. Well you know it was a it was a play. I was doing called a matter of choice That was like an off off Broadway play. It was about a sort of A sort of very urban kid living in East Harlem and it was a great great part and you know I had a day job and I was rehearsing at night and and it was it. Was you know it was like water in the desert when I got this role you know it was like nobody was ever going to see this thing but it almost didn't matter because it was a chance to to do some to work And maybe somebody would see it and you know. I wrote out invitations to a million people and tried to get people to come see it and all of that but there was a night that that Phil Hoffman and John Patrick. Shanley came and I. Shouldn't you know I shouldn't over over emphasize probably fills you know. He didn't say much and but I think he liked the work end and it was Shanley that offered me a play from that night. But I'll say that Phil Hoffman with somebody. That was all of our like hero. He was just magnificent and I remember him coming when I was at Yale. Speaking and he said that the experience of a young actor if any young actors are listening to this because I remember it helped me. It's this it's mostly inexperience of please. Please please fuck you. Please please fuck you. So that's kind of what you go through for ten years or so I was doing a play at williamstown years later took of play called a month in the country and I was really really at sea with an struggling with it and I remember we were sitting at this in Williamstown. And he's he said that. I to err on the side of going for it just go for it and that was you know it's a very simple but very visceral and immediately you know you know what that means anyway. So that was that was that was was a turning point for me when Shanley called me. It was a Friday night I was home. I didn't have you know I wasn't doing anything. And he had just won the Tony for his doubt and he had a follow up to the Dow was called defiance and he was going to go up to New York. Stage and film with Chris. Cooper do a workshop of this play and and did I wanNA play this part and so you know I probably cried. You know it was like Making contact with with another. You know another galaxy that you know that you've been yearning to to to enter and really from there. I just WanNa know that play defines was in two thousand six for you two thousand seven at the public in conversations in Tusk. Limb two thousand nine. Doing Theresa Reebok play. That's inbetween to Lucille. Tell award nominations in in three or a four year span is pretty incredible for new Jerusalem in the coward and so I guess it really did cascade some. I don't know if it felt like that. In the moment but it seems like that was where the the momentum really started also where something else you know builds up to this period in two thousand eight where it looks like within less than two weeks your first movie. Humble County comes out on September twenty sixth and you make your Broadway debut on October seventh in a man for all seasons. That did it feel like it was all happening. I think it did you did. And and it felt like a version of of the life I hoped for imagined. You know getting to play Richard Rich Man for all seasons. It's one of the great parts. We Franklin Gela get to be on Broadway. It was like the Holy Grail for me and humbled county was a film. That was my first film of any kind and it was the lead in this film. That was sort of like a director's were really. They were like Hal. Ashby guys and they were really influenced by five easy pieces and they were. They were trying to make a substantial film. And did I think and I had a sort of limited experience as an actor working on that there were some scenes in it especially that sort of Where you kind of have to risk everything and jump and not know what's going to happen in the scene and I remember Reading College. There's something that real cassette. All great art is the product of having been endanger and. I think there are certain scenes that you come to a threshold that you just know. You don't have anything to bring to you know you don't you have to basically you know there's this Garcia Lorca thing where he's talking about the day which is the spirit and he says you have to rob yourself of skill and security for the dwindle to come and so that's I think you come across these scenes where that is what is required and plays too. You know there's a lot of plays where you sort of just have to give up. I guess no so that time yes crazy looking back at it because that feels like so long ago to me. You know an end at the same time. It's interesting because I still could still barely pay rent through all that. Yeah no way you know on Broadway doesn't pay no Broadway doesn't pay yeah right. And that didn't matter. It was never money. You know I would pay to do those jobs. You know my agents more likely saying that but but you know that that feels like if you can do something that you feel like you would pay to do. That is very fortunate. I would just note that a man. For All seasons there is a good deal of backstabbing and power grabs. It seems like it might be a our shadowing well. It's interesting. I'm reading a wolf hall making my way hall right now. And I just read a passage the other day about Walter Cromwell who was attempting to kill Thomas Cromwell by inches. He was killing him by inches. But yeah there's certainly that world but that was I would say that. That was a time where whatever process that. I might have or started to work on. I certainly didn't want to interact with the other actors in a in a kind of breezy casual way and then suddenly feel like I'm pretending acting on stage and you know I read a ton of stuff about that period and about Henry. The eighth about sort of the tutors. You know the world of that and I guess trying to. In a sense create the dynamic that exists between the characters and allow that dynamic to be their off stage. So that so that you don't feel like I guess that's the real thing you know. Somebody said that James Dean used to sort of do a circle around the camera so bad there was no sense that that on one side. You're acting on the other side. You're not and that's the goal really is to is to never act and so so anyway so but but man for all seasons was a harrowing. You know that that role Richard. Rich basically his journey is the slow erosion of his soul. in the end of that play. Thomas Morrison's says to him. What is it profit a man? If he gains the whole world lose his soul in in in a sense. Kendall Roy is also about the sort of annihilation slow leakage of a of a person's soul but not to get not to jump ahead to that but that was that was an incredible time and I did feel like. Listen my my greatest. I always wanted to do movies and I always wanted to work in film and you know Daniel and and creamer versus Kramer in Dustin Hoffman. Nicholson and five. Easy pieces in Jon voiding coming home in Pacino in Serpico dog. Dan You know those were those were the things and so so the theater I think is is always a place that feels like home to me and I and I always go back to it. But there's something about film and it's not it's not the lure of it necessarily although there it does have a sort of you know Patina sort of surrounding it. It's the process of making the to me now but I find compelling and and and more challenging in a way I think we should say that from Humboldt County in two thousand eight began a streak. That really hasn't ended in hopefully won't end anytime soon. Because let's let's just talk about the great filmmakers and films over these next few years just briefly. I mean small. Part in our government's The Messenger the year after. But I know you you. And he re teamed years later with the time out of mind you've worked twice with a Lotta these people who I'm GonNA mention which is probably the best complimented actor can receive so there was both your while you're back with Daniel Day Lewis as his assistant on screen this time in Lincoln for Spielberg. Which must've must've been kind of a mind blowing thing and that same year in two thousand twelve as a CIA analyst for Kathryn Bigelow and zero dark thirty. She's another person who you worked with again. Years Later in Detroit. I guess here's where these small part like. The Messenger may be gives way to parts with great filmmakers great fellow actors in addition to the Messenger. Now with with whether it's the day Lewis or these other folks that you're with just As as the film side of things was gaining momentum. It was clear that you wanted to continue to focus on that screen. Acting was what you would hope. That would be. Yeah Yeah you know the the hunger and and the ambition was certainly there. You know I mean being in those environments and getting to be part of those films. It's funny man when you when you when you sort of. It's a bit like this is your life I you know. Here's the thing about acting which which I think a lot of people feel like I think in order to do work will you kind of have to stay? Perpetually a beginner and you can't have arrest on anything so in a way it's just about the next piece of work and you have to approach it as a beginner and and start from scratch again so. I don't usually sort of go back and think about all that but but it is to work with with so many amazing writers and directors and watching watching the way that Stephen Watching Stephen and Daniel work together on that film for a few months. Watching Kathryn? Bigelow direct watching vowel. You know this is years later but you get so inspired by by people and it. Also sharpens your resolve and I think sharpens your. It took me a long time to feel at home on a set the way I feel in the theater because I think I had you know have bitch waited myself. There's so many years of being on stage to get to a point where you're so comfortable on a film set that you know that you can be free because your job ultimately is to be free you have you to kind of not give a fuck about anything else. And you're not there to please the I don't even think you're there to please the director or the producers of the studio or the audience. You're there to serve the character in to tell the truth and if you can do that I think in an unfettered and free way you might please them and serve them but you know the that year I have been in. La kind of just trying to audition trying to get work. And and I was having a hard time and I got a call to go back to New York can do. This play called the coward which was a sort of ludicrous. Play about a kind of fop in the seventeenth century. Who was a coward and his father wanted him to fight duels. It was like Barry Lyndon meets the jerk and the whole I decided I went up to a house in upstate. New York getting ready for it. I went I decided to go back to New York and do play. I was like this isn't happening for me out here. Maybe never will. I'm just going to go back to New York and do do good work in a play with this with Sam. Gould is a great director so I went up and I started thinking that this character needed to have a voice. That wasn't my own and that it should sound sort of like a read or a wind instrument or something and sorta trying out all these voices in order to make the material work and and then and I got terrible review in the times when it came out but I think he called me. He said I sounded like a tone deaf. Castro and I thought I did it just to tie it together. I did that. Play an idea to play without him rap at the rattle stick about a guy wheelchair who'd been in Afghanistan and that was in a sixty theater above a philophical stand and everybody came. Everybody came to see it. And that was the thing it was like I remember. Meryl Streep was in the audience. The coen brothers or the audience. All these you know sent Mendis and and Av Kaufman a great casting director. Av came to see it. And she cast me in Lincoln from that and that was a life changing thing and also reinforced to believe that. If you just commit to doing good work eventually somehow you know have faith in that somehow That manifests the you know what people will you and your intention. Well I WANNA mention a movie that unfortunately I don't think it got much of a release once it once. It went out into the world but I was lucky enough to see that the North American Premiere at the Toronto Film Festival in Twenty Thirteen and your work in this really impressed me and I will quote someone else. Who really impressed. But this was playing Lee Harvey Oswald in Park Land about sort of just the the last days in aftermath of the of John F. Kennedy and you looked unbelievably early like the guy but also just were much beyond that and I will quote co-star Billy Bob Thornton. Who said that he here's what he said. Listen Man I was leaving you alone set but it excites me when actors come up that remind me of when I was coming up the dedication of being a character. I said I'm going to remember you. Apparently he asked you to and said this And I guess just in terms of you know there's somebody that's a colleague who's noticing the level of commitment that you I mean I don't think you were when they said cut you weren't playing cards with everybody else on that set or probably any other. I would say that actually that film and and and working on that roll was sort of the first time that I realized that I needed to approach it in a certain way wasn't a it wasn't an option to do it any other way because it because it was Oswald and because it is and because the stakes are so high and because it's such an important story it just felt it felt inevitable necessary to stay in that and to stain that character. Even when I you know I think we did some days where I was on the Gurney dead and I felt like it was important to just stay on the Gurney dead for the for the whole day to help the other actors sense of belief but yeah I think without it it was like you know it's serious stuff and and that was an also very daunting. Gary Oldman you can't touch Gary Oldman's performance of that role and and you shouldn't try to. You should try and do something. That is your own and Peter. Landsman wrote this incredible script than He. Let me I remember the first day asking if he could just lock me up in a room and then you know. I'm being into interrogated by these. Fbi officers and can you have these guys kinda rough me up and and and just bring me into the scene and just have the cameras on and let's just go into it. You know what's not rehearse? I don't know when that occurred to me. But that's definitely something that I am a big believer in not rehearsing. Which is what you can't do in the theatre but film. You actually have the chance to make discovery of a scene and capture that happening in the moment that it happens rather than make a discovery and try and perform to recreate it. You know you can. So so so he so he did that he lined the hall with all these actual Texas police officers. We were in Dallas and and that was amazing. And you know and just went right into the scene and and I guess from then on especially when a character is when carried through house and Mrs Talking Very pragmatic way characterization you know if if there's external aspects that are different from you voice body energy anything. I think you know. There's a there's a there's a there's a line in hamlet resets for use can almost change the stamp of nature and I think your job is an actor with a role like that is to change the stamp of your own nature through us so if you do it enough and if if you habituate yourself to it enough you can. I think kind of transform yourself and certainly that's something that I've learned from other actors and certainly that's something I've watched. Daniel do well so that was followed the next year with both the judge with Robert. Downey junior and Soma for Rene and with David Yellow and then comes two thousand fifteen where I've gotta ask how how this part came about because it seems like this is Adam McKay the big short You're playing the gum. Chewing numbers Guy Vinnie Daniel. Who is at the Hedge Fund? Run by Steve. Carell one of the few people your character who saw the collision coming and basically from that project seems to have I I I gathered. It wasn't an easy one to become part of. You went through the ringer around that. But that once you and Adam McKay did connect. It's a major wet. Yeah so much of this is when I look back at it. So much of it is synchronicity. End Luck and you know there. But for the grace of the gods go go. I you know the judge was a real milestone for me because that was that was that was a real role that was a substantial role that when I read it it sort of screamed off the page for to my imagination was the kind of rule that I'd always wanted to do. And it took a few months of research and spending time with kids at schools for people with developmental disabilities and and it took me going out on a limb in a way that I'd never gone out on a limb before you know. I got on a lemon defeat in the theater in front of a small audience but to go out on a limb with you know Robert Downey and and Duval visit enough Rio in this big brothers movie which was really my first big role in a in a film and I think there was certainly a sense of. I have to be willing to to make a fool of myself here. And just commit to this and really commit to this characterization really commit to my instincts here but doing that was a very empowering experience and Downey really really helped me with that in terms of finding freedom so around that time I met Dede Gardner who runs plan B with Jeremy Kleiner. Brad Pitt and Dede really is has been one of my good angels And she's the reason that I that I did Selma I would say you know she infringing Maze. Ler are have been my good angels and Andean and Francine brought me in front of Adam for the big short for a bunch of rules. You probably heard this story but it was. I've said this but it's like I felt like I in Monty Python in the nights Hussein knee like get each Liam just gets cut off one at a time and at the end you're just like a bloody stump But it was that thing where it's like. I thought I was going to get to play. Hamlet you know I went in for some big roles and then in the end I was auditioning for like a one scene where the guys didn't even have a name. They were called Maroon and black and was like the colors of their shirts and in I remember sort of really being like. Oh Man Fuck these guys. I'm not doing Maroon or black and then finally you know a week later. I was like okay. You know you consider me for Maroon. I don't WanNa play but borough us not going to go any further with Maroon But then after after getting to a point and I think spiritually this is actually very important. I didn't get that movie. It was unequivocal and I was and I was. I was devastated. There were a few things that I've been really really devastated by as any as every actor has been money. Monster was one of them and I wasn't even close to getting that part. Hope Springs Eternal but the big short was something I thought surely I can. I can do something in this. I can do you know and I. I've read ten books at that point on the on the financial crisis and devoured everything and felt really sort of loaded up and I had this really great meeting without him and then finally about a month after a few weeks after the last the final. No you know. There's there's a wallace Stevens Palmer. He says it's not about acting but I'm gonNA miss appropriate if he says after after the final no there comes a yes an on that yes future world depends and that was certainly true for me in that moment you know I had to. I had to grieve that loss and accept incense fundamentally that my dreams ultimately. We're going to happen as an actor. You know that your fantasy of what this is going to be like might not happen and will you still commit to doing it. Then if it's not going to look the way you imagined it would and if you don't you know and and I remember feeling like will. Yes I'm I'm going to commit to because I actually enjoy this in ONA. Just do good work. And then a few weeks later they called. Bobby Kennedy Volley dropped out. You know he's probably not not psyched. He had a conflict but But it was it was a it was lucky for me and and so I went in one more time for this part that I think no one saw me as you know in. That's been that's been a thing. I remember you know when I was coming up until people see what you're capable of. They don't know and they see you a certain way. Our they put you in a certain boxer category so it's been people who have taken risks with me and given me chances to do something else like Adam did and you know. And so he gave me that part and not also felt like I knew that was a big life moment. I remember exactly where I was. And and DD call said Join New Orleans and you know I am worked in a while when when that happened and then I said you know then I got to work and and and kept reading and went and spent time with these guys and I remember you know. Meeting vinnie recording vinnie's voice surreptitiously You know observing his behavior. You know he was always doing two pieces of gum and and well I got to set you know in was the day before filming and we were in a casino in New Orleans. I went up to McKay who I didn't really know at that point and I also thought man. I might get fired from this because I'm about to go way out on a limb here but I said Atom I think I need to shave my head and I think I need to choose to pieces of gum in every scene. And he was like great. You know. That's that's that's the thing about McKay. One of his great virtues is how. How mentally unthreatened in immensely trusting? He is in his in his actors and collaborators. And he comes from Improv. Which is yes. And yes. And is the Credo of Improv. Adam you know exemplifies that and so in in the hands of someone else who might have stifled that or you know It might not have been what it what it was but he really gave me freedom and permission to to to just gonNa run with the ball and yeah I mean you know the big short kind of changed my life in in another incremental way and then of course it led to you know. I wouldn't be here talking to you if I hadn't that if I hadn't have had that chance. And then Adam is. The reason adamant Francine again who put me in front of Jesse Armstrong and when inbetween just quickly. Noting do that. Second bigalow Detroit. You did your first Larkin. I know the second is coming up this one. The game. I'm excited for the second. One is to trial the Chicago. Seven will let our listeners know but but now as you say this sort of leads to succession coming along in two thousand eighteen and I was pretty fascinated to read that. It wasn't a matter of atoms saying hey you know you seem like you should be Kendall. It was more a matter of very different than when you met with him for the big short. It's like which of these siblings interest you. It sounds like right I go. I had gone over to Adam's house for lunch. And he said I have the script that I'm going to do. And it's sort of a King Lear Murdoch Media Industrial Complex kind of thing and I think you'll love it spike the screening list writer. You know give it a read and and let me know which part you respond to in. That's will do it. You know That'll be that And that's how we'll do it which you know. I'd never had that before. I've always had to fight to within an inch of my life for forever for every inch of ground so I remember reading it and being immediately you know it's like it felt like the greatest. Christmas present ever unwrapped you know because it was clearly a serious piece of writing with with tremendous depth. Pay Those and an intelligent send. There are certain things that I feel like I can serve and be part of and there's a lot of things that I don't feel that way about but I felt like whatever whatever my life experiences may have been whatever gravity I might be able to to sort of Offer and and and it just felt like this is this is it. This is kind of the thing that I've been waiting for my whole life without knowing what it was but that but it was apparent and then I thought I wanted to play Roman read I wanted to ask I mean so what was just because in hindsight it sounds it's fascinating to fascinating thought exercise book. Why why did Roman stand out to you initially well? You know what? It's a flashier character and on the page. It's a much flashier character because I've always seen myself as a character actor you know. I always wanted to play rats who Rizzo. I'd always wanted to play. You know it's like the character. I got to play in errands. Movie Molly's game. That was the kind of part I always wanted to do. And that guy was a real scumbag kind of La. You Know Viper Room owner should come back but But you know like who wears Ed Hardy and and chrome hearts jewelry and that felt like the kind of character that I really wanted to to do and Roman felt like this. Bon vivant prick that I thought. Oh this is something I haven't done before and and this this feels exciting and and he said great and so I went for about two months thinking that that it was my part and then I got a call saying You know we we hate to tell you this. But they've offered your part to cure culkin who I guess self submitted a tape and they loved it and I wrote to Adam. I WAS PRETTY. I was pretty. Ptsd yeah and Adam said managed. I I'm so sorry I should never told you you. You could have whatever you wanted. It wasn't my place and you know Jesse just isn't really familiar with your work. Doesn't know you but he thinks that you might be right for the lead of the show but you have to come in and read for it so you know. I didn't think I would get it because I I I. I was up against a very much more established very formidable talented actor. You know who who was more well known than me and all that but there was just you know it felt very alive in the room. I felt like I was prepared enough. And you know at a certain point in the beginning I think when you have everything to prove auditions or very terrifying thing because you just feel you do you feel a sense of. Everything's on the line. I think that feeling is really anathema to to being able to to be comfortable in free. Which is your job. And so over the course of years I guess I was able to sort of enter into more like fuck it kind of attitude and yeah so it went well in the room and and I and I walked out thinking that that I that I I've gotten that port and it just kind of felt in the pocket to me and and you know it's funny. I drove away from Francis Office. Adamant Jesse had made a comment. Adam gave me an adjustment and it was just one of those sort of fluid things that I felt something kind of happened in the room. And I think Jesse saw the character and I felt. Oh this is where this character lives. And this is what it is and it had to do a little bit with going off the text and The sort of more kind of modern Argo and more more more. The Way Kendall is in the show I guess and drove away from the parking lot and drove past the Oakwood apartments which on Barham boulevard out where pilot season. Yeah I was eleven I was eleven years old and I went to stay there with my dad. He sort of like saved up all this money and like worked in night shift as a security guard on top of his job to save up money and we came out to La for a month. And I looked at the Oakwood and you know sort of failed miserably auditioning for things and I didn't know what I was doing but but it was kind of profound moment to drive away and look up at the at the place that I used to like. Make Bogey Pizzas with my dad. When I was out there for pilot season but it did you know it did change my life and it and it and I wouldn't have been ready for it much sooner. I think you know it's a heavy thing. It's a heavy weight to carry a show Daria show for HBO. And I think you really have to come to a place where you you can kind of not give fucking that and really just be committed to as I keep going back to like entering another space. That has nothing to do with what anyone thinks. And where it's just you versus yourself in in the ring and a real willingness to I guess fail or be fired or whatever it is and that nothing will get in the way remember. Conversation with Sean Penn recently who said that he felt like your job is in actors to be the your bodyguard for the character and take a bullet if you have a and I and I really believe that and so I felt like I had enough experiences working with these sort of legendary directors and in in in the way holding my own ground with them and with Erin. That was a big. You know Sorkin Sorkin and you know. He has such a sort of mythology around him. But for the part that I was playing it was very clear to me. The part was a very volatile sort of monstrous guy who was A live wire and I didn't WanNa feel handcuffed to the apostrophes and to being exact in the texts and also having learned enough about film technique knowing Aaron. I can get your words in there but I'm GonNa fuck around during the take as much as I need to in order to arrive at where it needs to get to to that extremity and insisting on having that freedom even at the risk of conflicts you know healthy conflict. I would say in. He was is a great collaborator and and I love working with him. And you know the Chicago. Seven is one of the best scripts I've ever read and it's been around for a long time. Spielberg was supposed to make it. Paul Greengrass was supposed to make it. Ben Stiller is GonNa make it and now Erin directed it and and you know the act. It's Mark Rylance and any red main. Sasha Baron Cohen and myself and Joe Gordon Levitt Incredible casts and that was another sort of You know totally walking the plank with with a very different kind of character and and was was just your indescribably exciting for me. I guess you know coming back just to the the Kendall Roy situation once you have the part you know that you guys are doing you got prep for a pilot which in all likelihood with this group of people was going to go beyond the pilot but you never know you never know Kathryn. Bigelow made a pilot with any red main. That didn't go. You know my friend Zoe. Kazan had done a pilot with with Lena Dunham. Hbo That didn't go. So you never know. Now we're not well in this case though you do the work the prep I know regardless and so in this case I was looking over all the great books about powerful media families that you have said you read That you know that it may not have been. Everybody wants to -SSUME that you're you're playing James Murdoch and I think there's obviously a lot of similarities but it's not exclusively that from what you've said There's even you know you've got a little. Michael Corleone seems here a little just a whole bunch of different different types. Yeah yeah well I just I guess I wondered the you know the night that you guys did. Your first table read for the pilot. Another family of rich New York people was on your mind and I wondered if they at any point. Also if you feel that they are you can share who that was and if they influenced your character or or you think the show itself being. You know that it's entering the Either at a time when maybe it's relevant I don't know yeah I think to the first point. The murdochs are of course a template for for a lot of a lot of the material in the show and they've been written about exhaustively and sort of magnificently by Michael Wolff especially and a few things and and unappealing James but there are some things in the groundwater from from reading about their family that led to 'cause you're you're sort of a detective looking for clues you don't know what you're looking for but every once in a while drops in and there was something about I don't know if it was James or Lachlan said you know they were talking about sort of the breakfast morning breakfast table where they would have the broadsheets of the newspapers and the feeling was that their father only spoke the language of strength. I remember being so struck by the idea of what if strength wasn't your native language. What if you were in a family with this sort of dominating patriarch primal sort of force of nature? Who's who spoke very effortlessly. In fluently. The language of of strength and dominance and you try really hard to and try to someone that in yourself and locate that in yourself and and act out of a sense of it even if it was even if you didn't possess it but you know there's a lot of little sort of dynamical things if that's a word like that that came out of the Murdoch books but then there's also the you know the red stones and everything that's been playing out in recent years with them and with Viacom and and there's the salts burgers mirrors Conrad Black and the coke brothers and all these families all of these different sort of dynastic families. And of course you know an an atom had talked about when we made the big short this documentary called born rich that he really liked by Jimmy. Johnson is filmmaker and one of the people he talks to end it is event and you know even the pilot is clearly about that groundwater you know what if there is a family that is at the nucleus of our culture with an amount of toxicity and dysfunction? That is sort of malignant and dangerous and poses a real in a sense threat to the world. I mean I. I don't I wouldn't argue that. The Roy's are that but some people would and you know in my job isn't to judge them. It's to empathize with them from the inside. So Kendall has grown up with this. It's all he knows. It's not his fault in a sense whatever his complicity is. But as you say our table read for you know when we made the pilot was was election day and we all went on to Adams a house he rented in Tribeca to celebrate. You Know Hillary's victory and then a sort of slow darkening and and sort of yawning abyss opened up under US and there was. I remember a sense that all of a sudden the thing we were working on took on a different resonance and at and a new sort of terrible resonance now that this wealthy pathological family had sort of ascended to this position of power and the immense danger of that. And you know and what happens when a family without much sort of sublimated aggression and hostility and competitiveness. We not plays out on a global scale. So yeah I do. I do think that the trump presidency has landed the show in the Zeitgeist in a way that it may not otherwise have been in but I also think and this is really the virtue of Jesse's writing that it's not a topical show. I think it's a universal sort of archetypal show that is as much a shakespearian drama as it is a you know a a contemporary drama and the sort of story of of succession and ambition and Internet. Seeing family rivalry is a very old story and Jesse is sort of camouflaging this archetypal story. In a very savvy. Very Witty Cellophane wrapping. Yeah I was thinking that another another question you might have been asking yourself at. The beginning of this whole thing was not just you know who are possible reference points that I can study but also fundamentally wider these siblings wannabe CEO. In the first place. They're not GONNA be any. I mean they don't need the money. They're all very wealthy. Regardless what is the appeal and I wondered if you can at least speak for Kendall about what you believe. That is well a few things. I mean if you've grown up in a way I think where you have had affection love and tenderness withheld from you. You have a real wound there and I think a profound need to gain that attention and validation in love which I think is something that really is driving these characters. You know. I've I've said this before but it is. It's something that I thought about a lot and still think about to answer that question. Something that Young said that we're love is absent. Power fills the vacuum. And I think that's something that I see in Hollywood. That's something I see in Washington. That's something you know. That's the real to me. Essence of the of the show. And also what makes it? I think so sympathetic. You know there's the Pathos of that is a very relatable thing. He's trying to fill some hole and some wound inside of him. I think what's what you know what you say about. They don't need the money that's right. I mean what what what they need. In a sense you know they. They've been raised with all this power but they've not been raised with any personal power. They've been raised with the trappings of power and with money which really counts for nothing. If you don't have a sense of power internally and I think they're searching for that and I think they're looking for it in the wrong places but that is where they're looking for it. You Know I. I have two kids under two and I was just reading a book. The other day called no bad toddlers that it's about discipline it's A. It's a fantastic book. But it's about gentle discipline and guidance because my kid is entering the terrible twos and and and and this happens when you're working on something everything kind of relates to it and you read it through refracted through the Lens of of Kendall and he was talking about children who are essentially abused or spank or shown negative reinforcement and how they come to connect that with love. You know an and in a way I think whether or not our father was physically abusive. He was certainly emotionally abusive to us and in sense. We're we're locked in that dynamic you know it is a Stockholm Syndrome kind of thing and so we keep going back to about dynamic thinking that it might heal us or or answer. Something a resolve something. So that's you know that that's my best answer. It's great answer. I wonder if I can close with just three things that are a I think. Hopefully prisonment of bigger picture that I want about that. I think maybe open up broader conversations about the show. I want to go back towards the end of season. One first of all where the sort of chappaquiddick sequence which has very little dialogue after the accident through the rest of that episode and then build in the following episode to the moment. Where the the season basically ends with you being. You learned that your father knows what you've done and you're now sort of beholden to him. I WanNa ask you about just the process for you of doing that as an actor. I I saw one thing where you had said that some aspect of that almost made you want to quit acting. It was just such a such grinding thing and yet it's also some of the best acting. I think I can remember anytime on your part and so I guess just how you approach that whole last. Few episodes of season one and and And why you've said that it was a turning point for you in a number of ways. Well to be honest it never made me want to quit acting because it was too hard because I felt like I went through the grinder. I I actually felt like I got to the end of what I could possibly offer as an actor. I kind of felt like an away. This is what you you hope for. I think you WanNa be you WanNa feel fully expressed but I I felt almost so fully expressed and that some tension in me but I had held. My whole life was resolved in sort of that had been this sort of Gordian Knot in the center of my chest was was resolved in a Cathartic way as through Kendall when the child in you know in in that final scene but I the feeling was I got I got another left you know and I think maybe actors come to that point and feel that way and and then you know I guess you go replenish and and something draws you back or something gets reignited but I did feel like a sense of. I don't have any where I can go any further than this and I wouldn't want to keep doing this if I felt like I was. Just as he says in hamlet higher salary not revenge you know it should be revenge so a crime of passion you know inactive passion that sequence you know. I always knew it was going to end with a chappaquiddick like event. But it wasn't until I read it at the table. Read which was on Saturday before we started filming them on a Monday. Cool in in in in legendary England That it landed on a just the magnitude of it and the and how harrowing it was and I had no idea how to do it and I guess it was. It was the only thing that that felt crystal clear to me was that I had to go through the ordeal as much as possible and sustain if you think of it as like a a minor keys sort of Screeching Violin Note. Sustain that note for however long we were shooting the episode and stay in harrowed place and so some of that involved some technical things in some of that involved the sound department. Let me play certain music from the giant speakers we will be blasting you know this Tender music like at three. Am in the English countryside. You know as I'm crawling in the mud in the water. I don't WanNa talk about it in a way that it seems like you know because actors do this sort of they talk about preparation in sort of make it sound. So glorified are important. I guess it was I tried as best as I could to believe. In the reality of of of of the circumstances and immagination Khanna takes you somewhere your imagination somewhere but also being in a in a lake. That's at freezing temperature for multiple takes again and again and again and again and doing just doing the physical aspect of in a way takes care of it. You don't have to do any acting. All I wanted to do is get out of that lake at the same time I wanted to go back in and try and save the boy and you know it was just one of those. It's one of those great pieces of writing. I remember a friend of mine was working on the Tony Kushner play and she said sometimes the writing is so good that it's like a set of magnets that it just pulls out of you. Whatever it needs to whatever you did there was. That was. That was unbelievable. That was the first thing I wanted to cover. The the second thing I is that that obviously leaves off that for you the actor now. You've got a gap until you come back for season two and then coming back essentially at not much further along in the in the life of the character knowing the hours later. Yeah and knowing the way you you get into your character and stay in your character I just I guess you know that you're gonNA come back as this guy who is numb and haunted to the point where he's willing to be vulnerable with his sister which he's never really done before where he's willing to almost confessed his mother where he has to be almost catatonic when his dad makes him go to the home of the guy who he had killed. Just all of this for you as an actor to have to sustain that during the off season and then come back and being at again. What was that like will? The truth is I didn't sustain it in the off season. You know. I walked away from it and put it down and I had my first child and I was living in Copenhagen and you know I I wind in a Guy Ritchie movie which is basically a a sort of almost like a campy farce. You can do these things in a in a tempered or half measured way and I do go to extremes and I think it's important to kind of enter into it in in an extreme way and you don't know if the thread will be there for you to pick it back up again when you return to it but but I also think there is enough sort of sense memory on a cellular level of of what I went through and at that point I didn't watch the show yet. I haven't watched the show but I remembered what the experience was. You know music. Music is a great trigger as well as you know. I sorta reread crime and punishment right before we started season to end and it became clear that sort of the directive for season two as opposed to season one was to sort of carry the weight of what. What does they ask? He calls the monstrous pain. That were Skolnikov is experiencing that separates him from everyone else. And so you know. That's not a walk in the park and not something anybody wants to do and certainly I didn't WanNa do it. You know I don't WanNa live in a place that feels monstrously painful and estranged So I guess by forcing myself down in Tibet place and trying to and and failing but trying mostly to sustain that and to live in that place for the duration of the season created in me a powerful need to get out of that place and to reach out so when Jesse wrote those moments like you said where I try to reach out to Chev or I have a need to connect with my mother. They were so pressurized. The pain that he's carrying and the sense of wanting some kind of reprieve from it. That felt very real to me but yeah it was a hard you know is a very internal season. It's like there wasn't a lot in the writing you know. That's what's so great about Jesse's writing. It's very it's very elliptical and Israel. Paik and it's your job really to fill in the writing and to and to think deepen it and embody something that will come across. And so I think this season was a lot more internal in a lot more sort of behavior that will tell a story in miniature in a way of what's going on the sort of inner contours of a of a character rather than rather than the outer ones. Last thing I will subject you to is just a question about where this most recent season kind of wound up. Where we're seeing Kendall essentially be what you'd like into the Manchurian candidate just going through life in a way that you know he's not totally there behind the is even and therefore can be weaponized and we're seeing the behavior in manifest itself in his behavior in weird ways the stealing of the batteries just to presumably maybe feel a little alive or whatever The wrapping for his dad. Just all this but it ends with Kendall obviously doing something that I wonder if you just I understand. You don't want to necessarily tell the audience had a had a see things but I have to ask how you justify in your own. Mind the what what happens at the end where knowing that his dad has some very damaging information on him to nevertheless still turn on his dad and for his dad. Obviously to react almost with being impressed with that smirk. I guess I just wonder where you felt. His mind was as as we as we leave the show at the end of season two. Well I'll tell you I give you my answer but I should also preface it by saying. It's a bit of a false answer because I didn't answer that question for myself in in in any sort of very clear way. I had a lot of feelings but I didn't WanNa pin anything down and it was different things at different times but I do think M my conviction is probably different than Jesse's conviction. You know the the the scene with my father and I on the ship before the press conference was written a few times and in earlier drafts. It's essentially him saying to me that I'm that I'm not a killer is meant to be the catalyst that that is the sort of like hammer firing pin trigger that that propels me. I felt like that was not new information to me. And essentially that's our dynamic and I know that he thinks about me and he says essentially the same to me in the pilot you know sometimes it is a big competition. Then I'm soft and Jesse and I had a lot of discussions about a lot of emails and you know. He's he's. He's incredibly open collaborator and puts up with me too. Which is which is a lot. When we're working. I tell you know I said to him that I feel like we're missing something that takes it to a new level of perceiving something in my father that is different and that is something kind of ineradicable bad that. I know that he's a bastard. I know that he's a monster. I don't know that he's evil and Nick Braun Place Cousin Greg we were. We were hanging out with nine. He was talking about the Miller. Play all my sons. I'm about moment in the play where the Sun realizes that his father knew about the faulty airplane parts and his complicity in. That just saw tracy. Let's do the yeah. Yeah it's fresh on my mind. It's a brilliant you know. Sorta piece of writing and the dramaturge of it is brilliant and it felt like we needed that something that would hinge and think Jesse will up at like three in the morning one night with this idea. Further for my father to to say no real person involved as related to the boy which had never been invoked before he had never brought up. What happened before and when he said that when I read that that was it for me. I couldn't see that or on here that and it forever altered you know whatever whatever altar of my father that I had been that I worshiped on was in that moment broken and something else came in to me and became from that moment clear to me and in a way I was freed from the Sort of Penitence and from the kind of playing possum that that that I that I been submitting myself too but also I found out revelation the power but I've never found before because my conviction was so clear and because in a sense it wasn't about me it wasn't about sort of achieving my own ambition the way that it wasn't season one it was about something else in a sense revenge while. I cannot thank you enough for this conversation for the show for it's been fun following your whole body of work and being there in January which seems like a like years ago at the critics choice awards when you were finally. I know it's not the reason you do what you do. But it's nice to see people recognizing the great work there and just really appreciate you. Thank you really means so much to me. I thank you thank you. Thanks very much for tuning into awards. Chatter we really appreciate you taking the time to do that and would really appreciate you taking a minute. More to subscribe to our podcast for free on itunes or your podcast APP and to leave a rating as well. If you have any questions comments or concerns you can reach me via twitter at twitter dot com slash Scott Fiber and you can follow all of my coverage between episodes at T. HR dot com slash the race. Finally be sure to check out the other podcasts. 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