Supreme Court Decisions
Just wish every time we talk about it and we say it's a big deal in. Oh my gosh. This is so awful and disgusting and traumatic and every day across the country. People who aren't running for president are doing phenomenal amazing work in their communities and their lives and their institutions that cannot be undone no matter what the result in November is. This is Sarah and Beth. You're listening to pantsuit politics. The home of grace filled political conversation. Hello everyone welcome to another episode of PNC politics they were gonNA talk about the Supreme Court. We're also going to talk about Joe. Biden's appearance on Morning Joe on Friday and our corona fatigue and just the shifting expectations that we have about where we are in this process will end as always with. What's on our minds outside of politics before we jump in Berry Kaufmann longtime listener. Someone that we've gotten to meet at a live. Event has come on board as one of our executive producers. We are so grateful. Berry you have come on board in that capacity and hope that all of you are enjoying our patriotic content. We realized that we have something like four hundred ish. Nightly nuances and that Patriot has any feature making them easily searchable so we would love for you to join us there at any level of support it makes a huge difference for the show and thank you so much berry and Oliver Executive Producers and patrons we are now several days into may which means in many parts of the country. We are several days into the easing of social distancing and quarantining restrictions. Unfortunately truly unfortunately a lot of these restrictions are breaking down upon partisan divisions so you're seeing more conservative areas of the country beginning to open back up you're even seeing this division in the Congress with the United States Senate coming back despite -ther aged population and the House of Representatives deciding to delay further coming back to Washington. Dc because of the risk of corona virus. You know it seems to me like what we're encountering is that when we all kept saying flat in the curve flatten the curve. We a flat in the curve as if it was very urgent. Which was that urgency translated into? Because we have to do it quickly. It will be over quickly. I think in a lot of people's minds and so the reality is we have flattened the curve. But we haven't come to the end of the carbon when you when you squish it down. And you flatten it as you do when you flatten like Plato. Which a lot of us are doing daily in our lives now it spreads it out and I feel like America is coming to the realization of. Oh we tackle the urgent need. We don't have spikes but we do have is a slow burn and so our daily new cases and our daily death toll is not necessarily lowering. Its not spiking but it's not low rain and we're looking at this reality that we have a long road ahead of US and instead of saying. Oh man we have a lot of this ahead of us. How can we deal with it? It's like forget it like I can't. I cannot possibly do this any longer. And listen. I'm going to be real honest. I have a little bit of that instinct. A- myself like there's this feeling of like we're really going to get shut down on the fall of flu season so like run while you can in the sunshine but I I think the urgency of flattening the curve kind of hit that flattening the curve means extending the length of the spread. I'm not sure. Despite the best efforts of many public health officials that the vast majority of us understood what flattening the curve really meant that we had a sense of. If we stay inside the virus will go away instead of if we are slower to get the virus our healthcare system. We'll be able to take care of us when we have it. Fewer of US will get it. Fewer cases will be deadly and honestly. It's no wonder most everything in American culture and in American business happens in sprints not marathons we look at economic performance quarterly and so three months feels like a really long time to us. We Day trade on the stock market. We get our podcast downloads. Over sixty days right everything that we do happens in these really short bursts of time and I just had been realizing that. Psychologically we are not wired for anything long term and nothing in our experience has asked us to practice something that could stretch out as long as a war that really impacted the entire country psyche instead of a portion of the country dramatically and everybody else only when we choose to think about it with last. You know a virus where there isn't an enemy and there isn't a finite ending period. I think that's what it is like. We Thought Okay. We flatten the curve. And we wrote all these articles about reopening and our public officials talk about reopening as there's going to be like a ribbon cutting and we're going to be off to the races again exactly as we were before this and it's just making me realize like on so many levels we talk about how our country was unprepared. We were deeply psychologically unprepared for what this would require of us. I read the piece in The Washington. Post both about The lack of federal funds for hospital preparedness there is a peak interest after nine eleven and then sort of faded when the bill came to also thinking like put a pin in that on a side note. I've been really thinking about. I wonder if history will require a dramatic rewriting of the legacy of George W Bush because of his role in pandemic preparedness and social distance. Seen in light of some of his other decisions that I think cost lots of lies and I don't agree with. There's a lot of me thinking like well we. We need to add this to the ledger. Anyway back to my previous point and so they faded with nine eleven and I keep thinking. Keep struggling with why. Why are the same people who I feel like our so? Gung Ho in the face of the heartbreaking loss of nine eleven which is you know three thousand plus lives are asking us to basically blow off fifty thousand lives and you know. I think it's hard. There's a really interesting article in slate about. It's not like the nineteen eighteen pandemic which all these lives were lost. Plays a huge part in our national history. Because they'll that type of lives lost is we don't have good language about it. We don't have a good way to think about that history because it's not for some grand achievement. Some grand historical goal. In the way you can you can Sort of right the narrative around war and you know because I kind of got on my high horse about like let's not really true. We can't do. Long-term we have poured lots and lots of money into our military like over very long periods of time. We're all about big grand long-term spending when it's like the space force or you know being the Soviet Union during the Cold War and I don't know why the psychology of that feel so different except for it is that if it's that neat there is a bad guy. There is an end date in theory. Although that's no longer really true wars and I think we just struggle in the absence of that and I think the the biggest difference is when we're facing what you're talking about when we're facing the psychology of short term long term payoffs for such an amorphous threat. Then you have to have leadership you have to have a leader that everyone trusts saying trust me. The long term will be worth it. You have to trust me you have to see. I can see it. I can see the vision. I can see the long term payoff. Can you trust me that I will get us there and you know? I think that we have really great local leaders but for better for worse. I think most people's state identity is not stronger than their partisan identity and so it would but I do think a lot of people's American identity is stronger than their partisan identity when push comes to shove and I think if we'd had that type of leadership at the national level saying lean into your American identity. We Are Americans. We are going to get through this together. I can see where we're going you have to trust me. It's going to be hard. It's going to require sacrifice but let me keep lighting the way. Let me keep showing you. What is possible and I just you know that type of trust is so difficult it would be hard with anybody but it feels almost impossible with donald trump. You know at any moment where he's giving that level of trust he just wastes it like he just he just Pours directly the ground. I agree with what you said about Donald Trump and at the same time. There's a part of me that sort of resists thinking about him as a part of this conversation because it takes me right back into the mode of conflict and it makes me think about how we've had a number of conversations you know when we started the podcast. I think one of the things we really learned early on when we were talking about kind of the more conservative you have and the more liberal view and the more conservative view of climate change the more liberal view. We identified really early on this realization. That you and I were able to find more agreement in our discussions because I would argue about the conservative solution to a problem but I would not deny the problem Our mode of dealing with adversity without conflict has been to introduce conflict. So it's not like oh my gosh. Climate change is this fundamental threat to humanity in our planet. How can we work on it? Together it's one side saying climate change is a fundamental threat to humanity and the planet and the other side saying no. It's not or talking about a particular solution and one side saying will you are too greedy to make any sacrifice for the planet and the other side saying you are too fearful to care about the economic consequences on us now of doing something you know. We JUST KEEP INTRODUCING CONFLICT. And that's kind of what's happening around cove. Nineteen that's so depressing to me. We've introduced conflict when there shouldn't be any because we. I don't know how to grasp something that doesn't have that natural dimension of enemy even our governor who I I like so much and I think he's done a really good job often talks about defeating the enemy and every time he says I. I'm like cringing on the inside. Because that's not really what this is and I do think it would help us to take a beat and recognized. That's not what this is and so our normal mode of responding has to be different. You know I don't claim to be an expert on the psychology of public health. But I do think that it is really really fundamental to how to motivate people and you know I think public health experts understand this. When we shared the report from American Enterprise Institute those experts go out of their way to say like these cannot be punitive. So when you see New York City videos of police hitting someone attacking someone because of their social distancing or people even the Tucker Carlson report that got share that I talked about on instant stories where somebody in Oklahoma father in Oklahoma got arrested for being at a at a park like they go out of their way to be like. Don't we cannot be punitive because that works against what we're trying to do which is really motivate people to to make these choices through some really sort of complex psychological sticks and carrots and you know I think in the translation to public policy with politicians and local officials and state officials. It becomes this sort of discussion about willpower and then it becomes what we always do which is scribbled this moral value in. So I mean I have friends that are they feel so upset and depressed and personally affronted when people are not they go out to lowe's and somebody everybody's not wearing a mask and I just think like hey there's lots like it cannot become. I'm a good person that cares. And you're a crappy person that doesn't and I think you see that those big feelings bubbling up particularly in California with Huntington Beach. This week. You know you have the people who are just furious at the idea that these beaches have been closed and then you have the people furious you be so selfish at all you cared about is the beach and you know i. I think that the breaking it down into willpower and like moral responsibility towards our fellow man. Even if some of that is true is not going to get us anywhere like it's not going to get people back on board with social distance. Same like this is like. Are you know fundamental? Aha Moment for Sarah and the life of pants politics on the nuance life when we talked about church clothes. And you're like I don't disagree with you about anything. I just don't think shaming people's way to get shaking people's the way people change and it makes me so sad. 'cause I liked ashamed people like it self. Righteousness is one of my favorite emotions as an interim one but it just doesn't work. And I think as as we face this slow-burn that's GonNa continue for months and we are going to have to decide how this is. GonNa work. I keep thinking about and I talked about this with Caitlin Curtis this this weekend on instagram. About her new book native and sort of oppression and all this stuff it comes up for me all the time and when I think about these things and I think about public policy and now I just have this really perfect pop culture moment. Two point two which is in Mrs America when they're talking about the housewives. We don't really hate housewives and I think Gloria Steinem says yes we do and they're like wait. What and she's like. You know the question is. How long do we give people to adapt to change? And I think that's sort of the psychology we're talking about. How much time do we spend? Motivating people you know. How heavily do we leave on punitive? Do we care if it becomes something we have to force people to do. Are we prepared to deal with the public resources the consequences of when we do have to force people to do it like it's just it's a really complex psychological dance and we're not bringing much creativity to it and that's what bothers me? You know the beaches question I think is a good example of. What's the creative solution? What something really fine. That could be set up on the beach to help. People see the distances. They need to stay away from each other. What is the version of? Oh my gosh look at this like you get your own private beach space right now. It's right in here. You know where. Where are we bringing to this problem? The kind of innovation that we pride ourselves on as a country to me the fact that you can't get the House and Senate back in session shows that we are just an utter dearth of imagination. The cares act shows up lack of imagination right. What can we do about this problem? Sent out lots of money and I do think lots of money needed to be sent out. But we're seeing that we're just recycling ideas and we're bringing the same kind of tools to this problem that we've brought to lots of others. Do I think Congress should be in session in some form as they are spending trillions of dollars absolutely absolutely they should and they should do it safely and they should do it safely for their staff members and for all the people in DC who have to spring back into action as Congress comes back into session? But if we can't figure that problem out on a bipartisan basis. How can we expect that group of people to do much of anything for the rest of the country and I believe that they can do it? We just have to get out. I mean the conflict that we've interposed on this like Democrats are scaredy. Cats and Republicans are cowboys. We're just GONNA be stuck if we keep doing that. It's so discouraging. Because I I do think you're right. Everybody certainly feels stuck. I think that's even the people that think they're cowboys feel stuck. And I I in my more graceful moments. I think there's a lot of creativity going on at the local level in the state level. And you know to a certain extent that cares act exhibit some real creativity because we went from benefits to direct payouts. Which is something that you know when Andrew Yang brought it up or when you and I talked about universal basic income like and it's not that this the cares act is universal basic income. But you know just check payouts exhibit some movement but when. I really sit and think that they did that. And then went home and thought done and that the only reason Mitch. Mcconnell wants to come back is to convert judges. I'm trying to burst into flames. I'm too tired too tired from homeschooling to burst into flames as the actual truth yet and I don't really blame anybody for that stuck miss because I do think all of this pretty deeply embedded in our psyches. I think we just have a problem. I think exhibits Problems with the way that we educate ourselves. I think it exhibits problems with the way we talk about what it means to be an adult in this country. I think it exhibits problems with sort of our sense of identity and self worth and that is not an individual criticism That is a societal criticism. It's just like we're learning about you. Know Co Morbidity is in Southern States Kentucky is one of them. We are at high risk in the state and it can't be because every individual Kentucky and has less willpower than our friends in California. So I don't want to blame anybody for where we are as much as I wanNA say. Can we all name that and step back from it and decide that we want to do something different here and really push ourselves to think more creatively? I loved Seth Godin email. He sends really short daily emails. And I always find them but this one I thought was so good. He talked about the difference between an organization and an organism And he said you know organizations have decided like this is the answer and we build a whole thing on the idea that this is the answer in any change within that is really disruptive because the whole premises is. We've got it all figured out. And we've laid it out an organized. It and this is how we do it. And an organism is constantly interacting with its environment and shifting as that environment shifts and I read that and I thought yeah like we are a society of too many organizations in too few organisms. And what this moment requires of us is to think more like organisms and to be where we are and be willing to adapt to it and that is going to take a lot of us but we have it you know and we made the iphone. I know we can do this. We're not bringing that kind of spirit to this kind of problem. I still think that such a huge part of that is we invented the iphone because they had steve jobs vision and leadership right. Like I think you have to have somebody saying trust me. This is where we're going and that's what we're missing. We're missing that so desperately it's not just. There's no where we're going. We don't have clear guidance on where we are right now and I think that's really really hard to ask people in the middle of stress. You know before we started recording. I was I kinda had like this. Oh my gosh are we all dropping? Iq points because there's this great psychological study where they create financial insecurity in the test subjects. And then give them an IQ tests in their IQ drops so like creating that. False sense of financial stress affects your key well. Everybody is experiencing financial stress. Even if you feel secure the the economic feedback about all the unemployment numbers and the debt and the other. It's huge and so I just think man. Maybe we're all just struggling with drops in our q because of stress and crisis and all these things and so in the face of that you really have to have someone or a group or a team or somebody that can point to where we're going to help bridge the gap between the stress and the crisis and the lack of resources and energy that people feel to to forward movement to gain that. Momento and we're just really missing that and I think especially feel that with the fatigue and the slow burn and the lack of clear guidance and the this is the solution. We're not there yet. This is the guidance but this is just voluntary. There's no requirements. There's too many requirements. Like it's just it's exhausting. So do you feel like Joseph? R Biden is the person to provide that vision as we transition into our next subject. Blessings I think I have some anger about this conversation on a couple levels. I don't appreciate the idea that because I'm a democrat. I cannot be objective about this like Democrats just looking to make excuses for Joe Biden. Because I don't even really like Joe Biden. He was certainly not my candidate. I will probably not vote for him. I'm a ballot in June and so that I feel really fill real frustration even though God save listening to him on Morning Joe and listening to a lot of people and a lot of people's analysis about the accusation from Terry Against Him. I am leaning towards believing him not because I think we shouldn't believe women not because I don't think that her accusation should have been should continue to be treated with all the seriousness that those accusations deserve. But because of the pattern of past predators that we've learned about in the metoo movement in which it was established pattern of behavior. Now we've got established pattern of with Joe Biden. One that for what it's worth I thought was disqualifying. But you know I think what I'm what I'm dealing with is struggling with what feels like a red flag to me that there there seems to be no pattern of behavior struggling with the idea that when we say believe all women. I'm not sure I understand what that means anymore. I thought it meant take seriously the accusations and not assume someone is lying and I don't and I think we we tackle some of this. Enduring are May to conversation and I know this is incredibly difficult. I'm not sure we have an answer and that doesn't mean. I don't think we should stop trying. I don't know the difference or is there a space between not assuming someone's line and not assuming someone is telling the complete truth either so especially as we face a scenario in which there is you know? Someone's liberty is not the line when we really aren't deciding if someone goes to jail or if someone doesn't go to jail if we're talking about someone's career or public persona in there. Is there a gray area available to us now? I understand that that there is a there is a hard decision to make here. Obviously it's not someone's liberty but it is the presidency and I. I just find myself getting so defensive when people write us and say he should be out of the race and I don't I don't know what should means right now because you know it's a democratic process short of him resigning the nomination or declining the nomination of his own free will. I don't know what options are available to us because people have voted and in a democratic institution or even in a party process based on a democratic process. Our options are limited and the the reality is. We're going to have to live in that gray area between both viewing the increasing accounts of cooperation and the lack of pattern of and know that we don't have a time machine and we can't go back and decide definitively so there will be gray area for US short of Joe Biden declining the nomination which there is no evidence he plans to do. And you know the the should cz are just not really helpful. I think in that scenario and you know the only thing I think that really matters to me is that I don't think women should be on the line to speak for him about him. Defend this be saddled with this whether their surrogates him vice president for him or otherwise. I'd like this this if we can learn anything from this particular metoo moment. I hope it's that. I hope we can abandon that. Women have to speak for men but otherwise. I think it's just something we're going to have to sit with and live with and be disappointed and frustrated and even disgusted with and I hate it and I don't know if there's a better answer well I agree with you on the whole I think we are in different places in our assessment of whether he's telling the truth about this or not. I am inclined to believe that. At least something happened with Tara Reid. That is not being disclosed right now by the Biden Campaign. And what frustrates me? The most in his telling of it not that there is a good way to handle an interview like the one he did with me. Mika Brzezinski and I should say that that interview had not been announced reported his statement had not been released when we recorded our last podcast so there was a timing gap as so often happens between our episode coming out and his decision to talk about this and I'm glad he decided to address it directly. Something that frustrates me in his telling. And I don't WanNa be too critical because there is not a good way is that I feel like in every denial his and others of an accusation. Like this. The conversation sounds like the woman doesn't exist anymore. What do you mean? There isn't this acknowledgement. Yeah we worked together. I remember her. I remember these things about her. This is what our relationship was like. You Know Mika ask him do you remember her and he really kind of ran past that question street to the this did not happen and I understand that. It is an unbelievable moment of stress to be confronting an allegation like this. Especially if you are certain of your innocence. I do wish there were a way to talk about it where the woman's existence doesn't just become like it's evaporating you know. I can think he did. He thought it would sound bad to say. I don't remember her. I don't know I believe it's possible. He does not remember being a staffer. Innocent OFFICE YEAH. And as long as he was and she was only there were like three months right. Yeah I mean you could definitely not remember her and I wonder if the advice was. It'll sound worse if you say you don't remember. Yeah I mean maybe I don't know but I totally I know what you're talking about and I think you're right. I'm trying so hard not to lean in too much to he did or he didn't because I don't know I just don't know and and she's doing it for this reason or that I don't know And I really WanNa have grace for her and for him for the people advising him for Mika Brzezinski. I want everyone who criticized the way. She handled to take several seats because there is no good way to do that either. And for her to be the woman on that show who had to do that makes me mad also. Yeah and I thought she did a very good job but yeah but if they'd had willie do it they'd been like why didn't you have a woman do? Yeah and I hate that and I just want out another ride off of. That's IT I want out. I want out of all of that out. So here's how I am analyzing it. Do I think that this is disqualifying for the presidency? Of course I do. Do I think that this should be where we are? Of course not and at the same time. I'm not the decider of that. Yeah the only decision that's in front of me is who am. I going to vote for in November and that is a brutal calculus. It is so insensitive to the spectrum. A feelings that people live through when you talk about sexual assault it is brutal to have this completely binary this box or that box choice for every person who's lived through something like this and I acknowledge that and I never want be insensitive to it and it pisses me off to you and it's never gonna be okay and it's not normal and it's not where we should be and yet it is where we are and that is all. I know how to grapple with right now. All I know how to grapple with is that these are the two people who are GonNa be on my ballot. Perhaps just in a mush okay. What am I going to do in that scenario? It sucks. It's infuriating. It's even more infuriating. If the actual truth is he did nothing wrong. And this is being used as a weapon. That is re traumatizing. So many women that is putting people like Mika through the horror of having to do that in view you know that is unearthing all of this stuff that we can't seem to take a breath from as a culture because of its prevalence. If this is a lie it's it. It makes me even matter. You know what I mean makes me even angrier. This is not true and so I don't know what to make of any of it other than to keep thinking about. How do I look at my ballot and make a decision if these are my options there unacceptable options? Would I rather have Joe Biden without a woman vice president because of his know if this is the choice that we face he is the nominee he pledged to have a woman? Vice President. Do I want every woman who would be a great vice president to turn him down? Because of this I do not know I do not want that and so you know I. I am just wrestling with being deeply pragmatic as we must be at different points in our democracy and holding space for the fact that this sucks all around for literally everyone and there is no way that any person involved in this can handle it. That's GonNa make all of us feel better and you know what else though on top of that you know. We have a chapter in our book. I think you're wrong but I'm listening at your local booksellers about putting politics in its place. And I think there's room for that this type of allegation and for what it's worth the established pattern of behavior that both of us believed were disqualifying. It is true that is disqualifying that it is traumatic for survivors of sexual assault that it is disruptive and nonproductive and all those things are true in also it true that the entirety of the metoo movement that any the entirety of any forward moment movement and growth in our society with regards to sexual assault is not tied up in. November's election. That's not it. That's not all of it. That doesn't have to be the basket in which we put every single idea philosophy controversy problem issue cultural societal gender otherwise into it just doesn't have to be that it just doesn't have to be that because we if we face a ballot in November with Donald Trump and Joe Biden whether we learn more or less about that accusation does not mean that there is no hope that the metoo movement has lost that once. We've turned in all our ballots. That nothing good can happen again around this movement around this topic around this issue that it's the only thing that's going to matter to this topic and this issue until November like just. It doesn't have to hold all that it just doesn't it's big it's important and paradoxes are true and so at the same time it is not everything. We confuse the two A lot. We can fuse importance for the entirety of it and just wish we wouldn't do that right now. I just wish every time we talk about it and we say it's a big deal in. Oh my gosh what's going on. This is so awful and disgusting traumatic that we also say and every day across the country. People who aren't running for president are doing phenomenal amazing work in their communities and their lives in their institutions that cannot be undone no matter what the result in November is. I think that's right. I think it's exceptionally difficult. I think it is made even more so by the circumstances in which we find ourselves right now where it feels like. This is the entirety of that race. In this moment I think there is a pressure on the Democratic nominee to be above all question and reproach as a contrast to president trump and that is not what has been decided in the Democratic primary and I understand that people have very strong feelings. About how the Democratic primary shook out and that is the result and and I will say you know we just had our first press briefing in the longest time by the new press secretary and when asked about the the numerous credible allegations of sexual harassment and assault against the president. She said well that was democratically. Decided kind of what we're saying about Biden right. It's been democratically. Decided that he is the nominee whether this is true or not. Donald Trump is the president whether all of those accusations are true or not and it is both true and it is not okay it that is not a satisfying answer. It's not an acceptable answer. But I think what is important about what you just said. Sara is that it is not the only answer our people continuing to hold positions of power that they ought not hold given the way they have treated other human beings in the course of their lives and equivocally. Yes and what we can do about that. In addition to continuing to ask questions and think about it and try to discern what the truth is where we were able to and try to discern discern. What is ethical where we are not able to is inspire people to run for office that we do believe should hold that power. Make sure that we're using the capital that we have within a democratic system to uplift people who will be good stewards of their power and I truly believe most important thing we can do is continue to have conversations in our families. Businesses Communities Civic Organizations Churches about how power is held and wielded and about how we impose accountability for these things and so when we are able to have those conversations in person I hope we can do it with a modicum of grace and a whole lot of wisdom as we discuss these allegations against Joe Biden. I have something less important but something. I'm very angry about I want to talk about. I'm mad about the murder. Hornet coverage have you seen the murder? Hornet avert just really like a one line introduction to a newsletter that I really liked talked about the murder Hornets. So I'm less familiar with the murder. Hornets than perhaps you have seen the murder. Hornets everywhere which I think is inappropriate. I do not think in Western Kentucky. I need to see such prolific coverage of a threat to the bee population in upstate Washington. Don't email me. It's not because I don't think the murder Hornets will be impactful to be population. Perhaps across the country I just think right now first of all. Do we have to call the murder? Hornets and second of all does the coverage have to be so dang breathless seriously like stop. Stop with the murder Hornets. Please thank you well before we talk about the Supreme Court. We wanted to bring up a couple of local leaders who I seriously hope have not been talking about the murder Hornets. I'M GONNA be so mad if in that lag. Time since we got these compliments and just issued that directive. But we'll start with Julie. Wise from Hanna. Julie is the director of the King County Board of elections in Washington State. And Hannah said I bet. She talked about the murder Hornets. I'm just saying Hannah said that. When she moved to Washington state from North Carolina ten years ago and was introduced to voting by mail. She never looked back because it makes so much sense in associate forward and Hannah is very proud of her. Nearly perfect voting record. She likes being able to take a second and look at her ballot and she wanted to shout out her local county board of Elections Director. Julie wise she said this is an elected position and Julius someone who cares deeply about her responsibility in the role to remove barriers to voting for the people. She serves Juliet efforts in King. County push for and make happen. Prepaid postage on return ballots. We used to have to stamp ourselves to mail or you could put about in a dropbox for free. There's is the first county in the state to do that. Which was eventually adopted statewide. She's increased the number of ballot. Drop boxes expanded translated materials and all around is an operations minded person who gets it all done efficiently and Hannah is very proud. You have twice voted for Julia. Wise from the comfort of her own home we also heard for Monica praising. The president of Oberlin University Carmen. Twilly amfar she has a son. Who's a student at Oberlin? They like many campuses across the United States. Closed Down with very little notice. It was sad stressful for the kids and traumatic for the parents as everybody was trying to purchase tickets and get everybody home and she said that the president who's new it's our first year in the job has triplets which is impressive. Sent a really really thoughtful message and she was really impressed with her leadership. So we thought we would share a little bit of a president amherst message so it's been really interesting not having students on campus. You know it's it's an odd surreal moment that we're in and it's feels Strange and yet. I know that we can find our way through this. I talked to a group of students right before you all left and they came to my office and we were having this exchange about how difficult this was going to be and at one point we all got emotional These students said to me. We'll prison or this is our home and so your home is missing. You and I know you're missing us no matter how challenging this is there is an extraordinary gift of time next up. We're going to talk about the Supreme Court talking a lot about the supreme court. It's been really fun for me. Well I do feel like they deserve. Some praise as a throwback to our previous conversation because they are adapting they're having the teleconferences and the things that it seemed like they would never ever ever do do. I think they should have been doing this before you do. But that's okay. So they're they're leaning into the to the unique and creative solutions for sure and they are also terribly high risk population so I am very glad. They aren't taking chances With Cova Nineteen. I have been fixated on a comment. That tyler made on patriotic in response to a nightly new ironside did about probably the most widely covered supreme court case of the past couple of weeks in that case. The court decided that when you are tried for felony criminal offense by jury the jury verdict must be unanimous to convict you. This was a case where the state of Louisiana at the time of convicting an individual had a policy in place that juries could convict by a tin to to vote and Oregon have that law as well. Louisiana has since turned its law on. Its own but the case went forward anyway and the court decided that the jury does have to be unanimous that that is part of our sixth amendment right to trial by jury but it decided that in an incredibly fractured and complicated way and Tyler commented on the nightly nuance. I did about that case and said this would be impenetrable without your guidance and I have really just focused in on that word impenetrable because I think that is true the Supreme Court cases that I read and share on Patriots are like the one thing in life that makes me exceedingly grateful for my law degree. That's not true. That's an overstatement. I've met so many wonderful people that I wouldn't know without my law degree but that is the moment where I think. I don't know that I could do this without my law degree and without the training that I have because it is really complicated and when I think about how much of our lives and how many very very personal aspects of our lives are dictated by the Supreme Court. It really concerns me. That an ordinary person can't pick up one of these decisions and read it and really understand it. Yeah I mean I don't know because I think the the sad reality of our government is legislation impenetrable administrative decisions. Oh Lord loud. I mean I think like just a lot of our democracy is pretty impenetrable. Gweat so good though you know. I love a pattern. I love a theme. That's why I'm leaning into Star Wars. Today's recording even though I don't even like Star Wars is because when you do it the way you did it on patron Andy like do all the decisions at once you see patterns and movements inside the court which are inevitable because they have two justices and not just because they have two new justices. Tell me if you think I'm wrong. In this perception. It seems like everybody like the Conservatives are emboldened because there's more of them and so they're being a little more Out in the open about their thought processes and what they think needs to change and the liberal justices are also being a little more assertive. I mean because I think they feel emboldened because of the way at least I would if I was them a the way in which cavenaugh came on the court in maybe because they I think well maybe it's not just that maybe it's also that they feel that movement coming from the conservative justices and it feels like soda my own particulars like coal. But I'M GONNA go. I'm not going down without a fight. That's what I that's my very emotional reading of like what she's doing and what's coming from the other side. Am I wrong? Am I just creating some drama? There isn't any No I don't think you're creating trauma where there isn't any. I think everybody on the court right now is playing a pretty long game and part of that Long Game. I think is participating in decisions sometimes not at all on that liberal conservative dividing line but trying in the course of finding some compromise as to the outcome of a specific case to make a much broader point. So that in the future you can circle back to that broader point. You know a big theme right now at this court is just what is the impact of president because for the average law student. You know the big takeaway is we decide. Cases The way they've been decided before that's what you learn. How is it done before? Okay that's the answer this time. It's really hard to make a law. It's really hard to make a law. And that's the way it's supposed to be and this court is taking a sledgehammer to a whole lot of precedent and everybody knows that that's dangerous game and will lead to conflict on the court over marriage equality over reproductive rights over lots of things that we thought were settled by these landmark cases that sort of announced a new understanding of law and people are starting to say the quiet parts out loud about that. And you really saw that in this jury verdict case where you had. Kind of a plurality of judges four judges saying well. This wasn't really precedent that we were overturned. It was Kinda president but not really so. Don't worry too much about this in that line of cases and you had soda. My you're saying this was absolutely precedent and we are absolutely overturning. It but that's because this is exceptionally important new of justice. Kagan coming down on the side of elite Justice Alito and Chief Justice Roberts. By saying we're not we're willing to have ten to verdicts from Juries in felony criminal trials and convict people with that verdict. And we think that's really stupid and wrong but our prior cases require it and precedent. Is that important? I mean it's a real disarray of ideas because I think everybody is anticipating. Where am I going to land when the big one comes and if we are in that place with the supreme core where the big one isn't what's at stake when someone is about to go to prison? Yikes Yikes we have put this in a pressure cooker. That's my reading of it. I appreciate the out in the open discussion precedent because they always did that crap and conservatives are going to say not unfairly. Y'All turned all kinds of president over during the Warren Court or created precedent. And can you say what you mean by the Warren Court for people who not Supreme Court observers So this was Chief Justice Earl Warren in the sixties where you got a lot of really big supreme court precedent including Miranda rights and auto criminal justice. But not just criminal justice modest civil rights decisions and big big shifts big shifts in the way. The court approaches. Lots of constitutional precedent. And you know here's a controversial thing. I kinda thought if what we talk about. All the time is the pace of change and how dramatically increased in our country in the last several decades. I mean maybe what we're seeing in the court in this Discussion a precedent is maybe. The pace of change will increase on the court. You know maybe that's just something we have to face decide if we like it. Do we like it. If it's roadways over Robie Wade in the seventies Several decades later we overturn it. Two decades later we overturn it a decade later we overturn it like. I mean I just think that maybe the Supreme Court is going to have to deal with the increase in the pace of change that every other institution has dealt with. I think that sort of what they're talking about. I think that the idea that Gorsuch or Cavenaugh is going to set this test for president. And that's what we're GONNA stick to the next couple of hundred years is laughable But you know I I. I don't I can't laugh at the idea that maybe there should be a test to begin with. Because they've always done it. They just acted like it was a one off every time. Well how many one after you get before. They're not one offs anymore. When you're when you're overturning precedent and so I just I don't know I just think that maybe they're dealing with what everybody else is dealing with. Which is the pace of change is increasing. And that's the Supreme Court is it is everywhere else. Yeah and I mean. I think it's true. The court has always been in a pressure cooker. I don't want to overstate what I think. This court is going through but I do think they like overt politicization has ratcheted up and maybe that just means that we found more transparency about. What's going on in the court you know? Perhaps that's the answer. Perhaps this is exactly how it's always been there just writing it in words that we can understand better now or we have more of a view into it now than we ever have before. Or maybe we're just paying more attention than we ever have or maybe none of it's different. It just feels different to me because this is true me. I still continue to largely believe in the court as an institution even where it falls wildly short of being an institution that is altruistic and You know everyone is being impartial on every decision. Of course. That's not the case. Fundamentally do I think the structure of the court is sound? I I do And I do think even in the cases where I just vehemently disagree with the court and and honestly the decision where that has happened. Most for me is the decision about Wisconsin's elections but even in those cases you know. I do think that we have people. Who are cognizant of their place in the process in history in a way that a you know one term representative from a Congressional district. It's been gerrymandered to all heck is not true and I think something really important about that. I wish that more of them reacted like the chief justice and were humbled by that role instead of empowered. Well that's a big ask right. I mean not many people make it to the Supreme Court out of humility word. It's like everything else in our government. If you're going to make it to the top you have a set of characteristics. Usually the got you there and being exceptionally self aware and transparent about your own weaknesses is usually not at the top of that list. Well now I have a theory about this. I think that is very identity driven because I think if you are white and male and you take that path from my sense of off. It's it's very different than if you are a woman or a member of the group and you take that path as a matter of defense proving your right to be their worth versus feeling entitled to either totally totally and I think you see that play out in the decisions and I think you Especially see it play out in you. Know one of the factors in whether you overturn precedent or not is how much people have relied on that previous precedent and there is a different sensibility about cases that concern contracts and business rights then cases that concern more personal rights And the way individual justices right about those differing sensibilities. I think you can see a real identity driven analysis and I don't think that's wrong. I think we shouldn't criticize the court about that. Because I think we want human beings. I mean what bugs me about Clarence. Thomas is decisions that he writes as though law should be practiced by robots. As though there is no room for interpretation no gray area every test should be a bright line test. Every word should be the dictionary definition of the word and I don't think it should be that way. I think law is intended to be practiced by human beings. I think the cases in front of the Supreme Court are supposed to be very hard cases. I think judges are supposed to look at all the circumstances happening when they decide a case and I think you can do all of that and still be very faithful to discharging the law as it's been written. It's just really interesting to see the court doing that against such a polarized landscape and having to be aware of that and also be like tired of being hamstrung by it too. And so you have. You have justice. Cavenaugh writing this concurrence in a case about the Second Amendment where the court didn't decide the case they decided it was moot and so they. They said we'RE NOT GONNA make decision on this because the the ship has sailed and justice. Cavanaugh said. Yeah I agree. The ship sailed But I also think we ought to take one of these cases where the ship hasn't sailed because I think we have too many laws infringing on the Second Amendment. Yeah that's definitely top priority. Clarence Thomas is my least favorite justice. Although Alito is really making a play for that position and I feel like what bothers me about those different sentiments. And I want to be graceful. Like you say we just need lots of perspective but I cannot deal with the town of Pearl clutching when a business or corporation must adjust or adapt or undo. Like oh I just how could you ask this business or corporation to follow this unfair law? It's outrageous and then when it's a criminal justice case they're like oh well you lost your liberty. That's the way the cookie crumbles. It's tough though I feel for you. It's infuriating and I am painting. I'm not even painting with a brush. I'm painting with like a street sweeper but it just drives me the Nanas and I feel like they do it a lot. Well if you are interested in following the court more I am breaking down each one of the decisions on patriotic. What is most exciting? I think about the court. Right now is that it's having these like way more transparent arguments and they've ever had over teleconference about some really consequential decisions including what they're gonNa do with Dhaka and what they're going to do with the president and the disclosure of some of his financial information this newfound transparency around the court is a real gift as it reaches some of the hardest cases that it's going to have to consider the Sturm Beth. What are you thinking about outside of politics? You know my husband. We all cope in our own ways with corona virus. And I think one of my husband's ways is using this time to complete projects And so one project that he decided needed to be. Undertaken is a sprucing up. Our patio furniture and my piece of that project was to recover the cushions of our patio furniture. Now Chad will point out quickly that he offered to learn how to do this part as well but you know it was enough for me to learn how to use machine and so. I did that and I spent most of the weekend. Either reading supreme court cases or sewing which was a strange space to be in. And here's what I really learned from. It like recovering. These cushions is the kind of project that someone who sows would say. Oh my God. It's so easy it's so simple just chicken you know you're done and that is because we do not value our own skills appropriately. Nothing easy about this nothing. And if you're a person who sows like value your skill and sewing don't be telling other people's stuff like this is easy because it is not easy. It is very complicated. It's great. I'm glad that I learned how to do it. It is a skill that I certainly need to practice more to say that I have it at all. It just made me feel like there are so many things where we would tell people will. That's really simple and there is nothing simple about it. We are just not valuing the skill set that we have built in support of that that task on record. Please don't ask me. I think sewing is a scam because sewing is just math and ironing neither of which I enjoy and I told you this when you send me. The picture of eleven coaches is like That's a lot of math. That's a lot of irony. I made a quilt for Nicholas. When I was in college and about halfway through I was like. Oh my God. This is so much ironing so much math and I wanNA cry. Geometry is hard. It's really hard some advance math skills going on sewing. This is what I'm saying and I feel like people would say this. This is easy because it is just a square and yes it is but the whole thing is still very hard no. It's very hard very very very hard. I like knitting. Knitting is counting but not map. See The difference. You just pick up and you start county now. I did cry the first time. I taught myself to be a youtube video. Because it's a hard thing to get the first time but like once you get it. It's just counting which I prefer Samatha. I don't want to dissuade anyone from sewing because I am very proud that I made these cushions and I do intend to keep sewing because I don't ever want to have to learn how to use the machine again I'm just saying sewers. Be Proud of your skillset. Tell people this is hard. I will teach you to do it and you should learn. It's wonderful but it's hard. What are you thinking about outside of politics? I'm just trying to pivot from the end of school officially to the beginning of summer. I WANNA keep up our routine because I think it is helpful. But it's just so difficult because the schoolwork was providing a certain amount of structure. So I have to figure out what's going to be in place of that structure in how to dial down without feeling like all I'm doing is dialing up the video gaming and the television watching it's just hard. It's just the different kind of hard during this this season. I did finish a lot of books this weekend which made me feel like more more. Like myself I finished the big thirst. Our water book from the Extra Credit Book Club really loved it. Thought it was so interesting and like got me thinking about feel like I have like. I've seen the matrix when it comes to water. And I also finished my friend Lindsay pollock's book the remix which is about cross generational workplaces and it really helped me and I am very dedicated to not generation shaming is very hard. But I'm I'm committed to trying so that made me feel a little bit more like myself. it's nice to finish some books and get some other input but it's just hard back. Monday. We're back to figuring out how to get a ten year old an eight year old a five year. Old engage entertained is. It's it's a sophy task. Yes it is. I don't know if I'm ready to talk about the summer yet so true. I just you know what I didn't College. It's true then and it's true now even more true than it was in college. I remember every time I would like. I remember in particular one political philosophy paper that was like it was about aristotle. It was due like the week like Monday after spring break or something and I got back on the like Saturday Sunday. Let's be honest and I remember being on the phone with my husband and being like I cannot do this. I cannot write this paper or like a test being just feeling like a cannot I just cannot and I would always tell myself you will blink and this will be over. You will blink and it will be another semester like I already had a sense in college like how time was going so quickly. That's even more true with kids on other days are long but the years are incredibly short. I have a ten year old. That's impossible and so I'm like you will blink and Griffin will be graduating from high school. You know that to be true. He was a newborn three and a half minutes ago. Like just have to keep reminding myself like you will blinken will be over to just stay focused on enjoying as much as you can enjoy because it really even where. I just brought my little quarantine journal that the historians told Me Start Day fifty. That seems impossible that I've been doing this that we've been doing this for fifty days. My went really fast and a lot of ways so I just. That's what I have to keep telling myself. We have gotten such submissions for the episode. Were putting together on how all of this is affecting kids. We have not heard enough teen voices so if you are a teenager or a young adult or are the parent of one who might be willing to share. We really don't Miss Your perspective and with love for you to send your voice memo just about how all this going for you just a minute or two to hello at Pantsuit Politics. Show DOT com. We know that you're out there and would really love to be able to share your voice with our audience. Thank you all so much for joining us. We'll be back here with you on Friday on the nuance life tomorrow. Keep it nuance Jill Paints you. Politics is produced by Dylan. Garvan and Studio d productions elite snap is our managing director Dante. Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music. Our show is listener supported special. Thanks to our executive producers Tracy put off Tim Miller Tiffany Hasler Martha Bronetsky Joshua Alan David McWilliams Alley Edwards. Amy whited jared Minson Allison lose ater and Barry Kaufman to support pantsuit politics in received lots of bonus features visit Patriot dot com slash pantsuit politics. You can connect with us. On our website pantsuit politics show dot com sign up for our weekly emails and follow us on Instagram at pantsuit politics.