Alfred Wegener, Beyond the Drift Dispute


The future is closer than you think. And it all starts in the palm of your hand you may have heard the news. Five G. is coming but but what does that really mean. How impact me in this new iheart series this time tomorrow presented by team above a business? Join me and my co host characterize as we will you through the true revolution immobility. That will change the way we interact with the world around us from environmental science to law enforcement. Entertainment Healthcare and travel innovation is coming join thus as we explore how this revolution could impact your life and here just how close we are getting to a more connected future full of possibilities in the age of five G.. This time tomorrow presented by team about business is now available on the iheartradio APP. Or wherever you listen to podcasts. I welcome to stuff. You missed in history class. A production of iheartradio's how stuff works. Hello and welcome to the PODCAST. I'm Tracy Wilson and I'm holly. I really love historical disputes. Especially especially when it's some kind of scientific or technical discovery or advancement or some kind of medical something that people were arguing over like when I've been trying to the figure out what to talk about next. Nothing on my list is really grabbing me at the moment. Sometimes they'll be googling lake scientific disputes in history. This is one that I've been hanging onto for a while and it's Alfred Wegener and the dispute over his theory of continental drift. And I really expected this episode to sound a lot. Like our previous one on ignites semel vice and handwashing except geology. Because that's how the story gets told a lot of the time especially to general audience. kind of gets summed up as Alfred Wagner introduced his theory of continental drift and and was basically laughed out of the academy and then after his tragic and untimely death he he was proved to be more or less right and for a discovery that was As important to the field of geology as the discovery of DNA is to biology but that is really not how the story goes at all. Alfred Wagner had a huge career outside of his ideas around what we understand today as plate. tectonics he did important and respected work that touched on a lot of different disciplines. There were definitely people who were very critical and even hostile when it came to what he called continental drift he did have his supporters. Orders are at least people who are like willing to entertain the idea that he could potentially be right. Alfred was born Alfred. Lothar Wagner on November first eighteen eighty in Berlin Germany. His parents were Richard in Vegas and they had five children. Three of whom survived infancy. Alfred was the youngest his older brother and sister who survived were named Kurt. Antoni the men in the Vega family typically went into the clergy and that was also. They're true for Alfred's father. He was at the Lojane and a classicist and a pastor and an orphanage director he also taught at the local gymnasium but it was against the rules for Kurt and Alfred to attend the same school where he was working because he was their father so they attended a different school and both wound up pursuing an education and science science rather than following that family tradition into the church. Kurt studied geophysics and Alfred studied at universities in Heidelberg Innsbruck and Berlin before getting eating a doctorate in astronomy in nineteen o five even before finishing that doctorate veganism interests. Went outside of what you might think of. When we say astronomy he had studied Max? Planks Work Thermo Chemistry and thermodynamics. And some of the people. He studied under four his doctorate. We're using planetary astronomy. As a way to study the earth Earth rather than focusing on other planetary objects he was also interested in weather and meteorology and after finishing his degree he started working at the German. Aeronautical Nautical Observatory in Lindenberg. His brother worked there as well and they used kites and balloons to study the Earth's atmosphere and atmospheric phenomena at one point during this work the Vega brothers spent fifty two hours aloft in a balloon which set a world record. Alfred Wagner was also also part of the team that confirmed the existence of the stratosphere wasn't a team he was running but he was involved in it had been interested in greenland since he was young and in nineteen eighteen o six. He got the opportunity to go there as part of the Danish. danmark expedition which intended to map. Greenland's Northeast Coast Vegas was the expedition's physicist physicist and meteorologist and his research involved more work with kites and balloons to collect atmospheric data using a lot of practical experience in polar exploration. Jim this expedition made its way through extremely inhospitable territory. So Vegas learned things like Arctic survival skills and how to handle a team of sled dogs On July tenth of nineteen seven while they were on Cape Bismarck Wagner and the team observed several waterspouts. They took a lot of pictures documented. What they saw and this experience may have inspired interest in tornadoes and waterspouts which will come up again later in his career? Vegas kept journals during us. Expedition documenting his experiments and their results as well as the ordinary work that was associated with it like setting up the equipment and keeping it maintained and repaired and he also wrote about his own challenges as a member of the team he had no experience in polar environments before this and his knowledge of Danish was limited unlike many of the other scientists involved he was also very early in his career and he hadn't really established a name for himself yet. This expedition achieved its objectives of mapping the northeast coast of Greenland but it was also tragic several of its primary members including leader Ludvig. Majlis Erikson died after being being stranded when the ice broke up around them even so before it was even over Wagner was talking about where he might go in the future even considering an expedition expedition to Antarctica as future project for himself in one thousand nine hundred eight after he returned from Greenland Vega moved to Marburg where he started working at the physical institute to toot in Marburg in nineteen. Oh nine he also lectured on meteorology and astronomy at the university. There and Vega became particularly interested in atmospheric discontinuities Thanou it-it's which are sudden sharp changes in temperature or pressure. For example there are discontinuity services around the boundaries of weather fronts and at the borders of atmospheric layers. Vagner wrote prolifically over the next three years publishing. More than forty scientific papers and then editing. The ones on the subject into a book called thermodynamics of the atmosphere. This was a widely respected in reference text on atmospheric thermodynamics for years until it was ultimately committee replaced by a later book on the subject of that begging her also wrote in nineteen. Ten colleagues brought an atlas into their office. That was Richard Andres alumini on my neon dot Lewis. This is one of the first atlases in Germany that included both the coastlines of South America and Africa and the bathymetric data or information about the ocean's depths that had been gathered by the expedition aboard the HMS Challenger in the late nineteenth century so vague or noticed something in this combination of data. That intrigued him. He noticed that the eastern coast of South America looked like it would fit exactly against the western coast of Africa and this wasn't just that the coastline at at sea level. It was also part of the underwater topography off of the visible coast. He wrote a letter to open daughter of climatologist Vladimir Coppin Vladimir Coppin had advised advised Vegas in advance of the mark expedition and Alfred and had started corresponding vaguely. wrote quote. Doesn't the east coast of South America. Fit exactly exactly against the west coast of Africa as if they had once been joined. This is an idea I'll have to pursue. He didn't pursue it right away there. It seems to have slipped his mind until about a year later when he read a newly published paper on Paleo geography that documented fossils that had been found on both sides of the Atlantic Alantic that combined with earlier study of that Atlas to put him on the path of formulating a theory of continental drift. And we'll get to that after sponsor break this episode of stuffiness. History class is brought to you by Peleton this holiday season you can give your loved one. Something they really we want with the gift of Peleton. Now I know that might be a little intimidating. 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Alfred was not at all the first person to notice that the eastern coast list of South America and the western coast of Africa. Look like they fit together like puzzle pieces. I mean this is an observation that children make the first time they experience globe or an atlas that shows all of that and people had been spotting that similarity starting as soon as there were maps showing both of those coasts in fifteen eighteen ninety six Dutch map-maker Abraham or telling US wrote that the Americas looked like they had been quote torn away from Europe and Africa by earthquakes and floods. Francis is Bacon commented on it in his novum orgasm or true suggestions for the interpretation of Nature in sixteen twenty in a passage on similarities found in the natural natural world. He wrote quote similar. Instances are not to be neglected in the greater portions of the world's confirmation such as Africa and the Peruvian continent which reaches which is to the Straits of Magellan both of which possess a similar estimates and similar shapes a circumstance not to be attributed to Mir accident by the nineteenth century entry naturalists had also started to document animals plants and physical features seem to exist on both sides of oceans in a way that seemed impossible title or at least really improbable given that the ocean was there to separate them there were rock formations on one side of the ocean. That seemed to pick up again. On the the other side. Meszaros fossils were found in both Brazil and South Africa and there are freshwater trial bite fossils from the genus paradoxes. He's that were founded. Both North America and Europe naturalists found living animals to like lemurs which live in southeast Africa the island of Madagascar Asker in Southeast Asia. Even though there's a lot of water separating all of those there were also coal beds on both sides of the Atlantic and seemed to be a part of the same system and physical evidence of glaciers that had once existed in parts of the world now have tropical climates and fossils of tropical plants in areas. That are now polar. The list went on and on and on so people started trying to come up with all kinds of possible explanations for how all of this stuff came to be so so for the animal fossils and the living animals maybe they swam really was one but kind of briefly. That was easy to discount. It seemed incredibly unlikely likely that the animals in question could have swum that far. Or maybe I dunno clung to a floating log all the way across the ocean the maybe they swam explanation. Also they didn't account for things like rock formations and glaciers that seem to have existed in what seemed like the wrong place. Another popular idea. was that at one time. There had been land and bridges connecting the continents but that those had ultimately sunk into the ocean. This tied into another prevalent idea that the earth had once been molten in was contracting being as it cooled and solidified. It was a little like the surface of a plum as it dries into a prune which could explain the existence of both oceans and mountains that that land bridge idea still had some problems though. It didn't explain the rock formations. That seem to stop at one coast and then pick up again on the other side of the ocean unless maybe you those formations had been part of these land bridges that were now underwater. But then they're also wasn't a clear answer to what could have caused the land bridges to think if they had ever existed in eighteen fifty-eight Antonio Snider Pellegrini argued that maybe Africa in South America had been one continent at some point in the past asked he suggested that the continents had been forced to part in the flood that is described in the biblical Book of Genesis then a few decades later when radio-activity nobody was discovered in eighteen ninety six that raised more questions about this general idea that the earth was molten just contracting as it cooled. How how could that be happening if there were radioactive materials within the earth that were giving off heat on December twenty ninth nineteen eight American geologist? Frank B Taylor gave a presentation to the Geological Society of America in which he suggested that the continents were moving and had been pulled apart by lunar gravity. He thought that the collisions allusions of the continents had pushed mountains into being and that the continents movement had also left deep tears in the oceans. He published a paper in one thousand nine hundred ten and other papers I followed. It is definitely possible to read. Taylor's nineteen ten paper or one of the ones that followed and for a while. The theory of continental drift draft was actually called the Taylor Wagner hypothesis in nineteen. Thirty two though Taylor said that his name should be dropped off from the scripture because other than the basic idea the continents were moving. His ideas. Were really different from. There's here's what I thought was going on. He thought that the planet was made from concentric layers of material. which were denser? The further down you go. And the outermost layer with the continents on it was not contiguous oceans fill in any gaps the continent layer was made of seal material that's largely silicon and aluminum and the ocean floors were sima that silicon and magnesium seal was was less dense than seema so the seal continents could float along the Sima Ocean floor kind of like icebergs float on the ocean. Vagner thought that at some point about two hundred entered million years ago all the continents had been connected into one landmass that he called Panja and then something had broken them apart and allowed them to migrate around around the Earth. He thought this motion explained how mountains formed. It wasn't that the earth was cooling and shrinking a prune or that mountains were being pushed up by the force of colliding continents. He thought they were formed by the resistance that the continents experienced as they were sort of Palau ing through the Ocean floor beneath them. Sort of like like the way tablecloth wrinkles if you try to push it across the table vagner also thought the islands were pieces that had broken off the continents. As they were moving Vega. There was not entirely sure what was providing the energy needed for the continent's to move. He proposed several possibilities. And the one that he focused on the most was that it was some I'm kind of energy related to irregularities in the planet's rotation on its axis Wagner detailed all this in two papers published in nineteen eleven and nineteen twelve wolf both titled The origin of Continents. He's cited evidence from several different fields including geology paleontology geophysics and geodesy and on January six nineteen twelve. He spoke about these ideas before the Geological Association in Frankfurt and then he presented on it at the Society for the advancement of of natural science in Marburg Germany. If days after that this was just dramatically different from how most scientists understood the world at the time and to be clear. It's really really not how we understand today either. But it also wasn't the only hypothesis out there. Other geologists had also put forth various ideas about how the earth's continents might have been joined together at some point in the distant past basically. It was clear that the whole model of the earth is a molten object that was cooling and contracting just wasn't correct so a lot of scientists were trying to figure out what really was happening had some supporters or at least people who thought he might be onto something. These were people who had personally seen or already knew about some of the evidence that he had cited but he also had plenty of detractors. Some of this was rooted rooted in the details of his work. For example he said that Greenland was moving at about one hundred twenty feet or thirty six meters a year that was an error her and it was easily disproved. It also didn't seem like slight. Irregularities in the Earth's rotation could have provided nearly enough energy to move entire continents knits especially if there's continents were plowing their way through a less dense layer of the planet underneath them. Some of the people who disagreed with Vega were particularly scathing anything about it for example Doctor Rollin t chamberlain of the University of Chicago said Quote Vegas Hypothesis in general is of the footloose type in that it takes takes considerable liberty with our Globe and is less bound by restrictions or tied down by awkward ugly facts than most of its rival theories. So this wasn't really a case of one man. Alfred Wagner against the whole of science enough people thought he was at least partially correct that they became known as the mobilised while people. Well you disagreed were called the anti mobilised or the fixes this was not the end of editors work on his continental drift theory. But he didn't keep working on lots of other stuff during his career career. And we're going to talk a little bit more about that. After we pause for a sponsor break the future is closer than you think and it all starts in the palm of your hand you may have heard the news. Five G. is coming but what does that really mean. How will it impact me in this new IHEART series? This time tomorrow presented by team above business join me as well often and my co host characterize as we will you through the true revolution immobility. That will change the way we interact with the world around us from environmental science to law enforcement. Entertainment Healthcare and travel innovation is coming. Join us as we explore. How this revolution could impact your life and here here just how close we are getting to a more connected future full of possibilities in the age of five G.? This time tomorrow presented by Tim About for business is now available on the iheartradio APP. Or wherever you listen to podcasts and Alford Wagner took another expedition to greenland starting in one thousand nine hundred twelve. This was another treacherous expedition. Meant to cross and survey the Greenland ice sheet from east to west including spending the entire winter out there on my sheet at one point a glacier that the team was on unexpectedly could lead calved and Vega wrote that they quote escaped death only by a miracle else coppin that we mentioned earlier had gotten engaged before that expedition expedition and they married after he returned in nineteen thirteen they would eventually have. Three daughters together was a translator. Translating scientific works works including some by her husband. She also published a biography of Alfred including parts of his notes and journals after his death vagaries work as a scientist and a researcher was interrupted interrupted by World War. One he served in the German army. I as a lieutenant. And then as a captain he was wounded twice once on August twenty third nineteen fourteen in Belgium and then once again in France on October fourth of that same year that second injury was a lot worse he was shot in the neck and had to go home to recover. He used that recovery time to write his book the origin of continents and oceans which expanded on his earlier ideas around continental drift once wagner was sufficiently sufficiently recovered. He returned to the army this time serving with the field weather services a meteorologist. This was not a particularly taxing assignment. He was stationed Asian on the Western Front which was a dangerous place to be but his daily duties mostly involved making some routine weather observations so he spent this time on study and research urge writing a paper called on the formation of Hoarfrost on horse corpses as well as a book called tornadoes and waterspouts in Europe. This book pulled together together. Information on two hundred fifty eight reported tornadoes that had struck in Europe between fourteen fifty six and nineteen thirteen because he could only get one one library to do his research because he was literally stationed at the Western Front during a war. Most of the tornadoes in question were in western Europe reasonably near where he was stationed stationed. This was the first Pan European book on Tornado climatology and it was really thorough. His intent was not to speculate on the causes of tornadoes. He does and waterspouts which was not settled at that point it was instead to pull together a wealth of data on how large the Tornados were and when and where they struck and how they moved Ooh along with other details like what they smelled in sounded like and any electrical phenomena associated with them on April third of nineteen sixteen while Wagner was at home in Marburg for Easter a meteorite struck outside the nearby town of Tracer to professors from the University of Marburg. Got In touch with Wagner Gunnar about trying to figure out where this meteorite had fallen so wagoner cross-referenced newspaper accounts and I witness statements. Try to calculate its trajectory eventually requesting some additional leave from the army to try to finish up this work win. The meteorites remains were found on march fifth of nineteen seventeen they were very close close to the spot that he had predicted. Later in World War One vaguer was transferred to the eastern front and then back to the western front. He kept working on his book on tornadoes which came out in one thousand nine hundred seventeen once the war was over. Beggar had trouble finding work at a university and seems to have been at least as much about economic conditions. It was about his controversial theories about how the Earth worked peon. Elsa eventually moved in with her father and Alfred went to work at the German Marine Weather Observatory in a position that his father-in-law had previously held begging her held this position for five years and he did have teaching privileges at the University of Hamburg in one thousand nine hundred eighty one editor published research on the causes of lunar craters. At the time there were four primary hypotheses about what had caused the craters on the lunar surface that they we're the remnants of some kind of bubbles that had collapsed that they had been caused by tidal forces that they were volcanoes or that they were the aftermath of meteorite impacts packs are used. Cement powder to simulate both the lunar surface and the meteorites basically throwing little bits of cement powder at a layer of cement powder with a teaspoon. Then he would carefully missed the surface of the simulated moon to set the powder once that was done. He would measure document the craters that had been formed in the pamphlet that he published on the subject outlined various arguments against the other three hypotheses. Before detailing how these simulate supported the idea that meteorite impacts had caused the craters on the moon. I love this so much. Honestly so do I. It's Alfred Wagner Honors Crafty time that is very scientifically grounded. I love simultaneously very charming and really cool. It's ingenious genius in one thousand twenty two published another edition of his book on the origins of continents and this one was translated into several languages. It was still a controversial traversee will work but it was not unanimously dismissed. Two years later in nineteen twenty four Wagner and his father in law published a book called climates of the geological passed that same year beggar became a professor at the University of grottes where he was the chair of the Department of Meteorology and geophysics. He also published another another expanded edition of his earlier work on continental drift. This one also called the origin of continents and oceans by nineteen twenty six vigorous theories on continental adrift were well known on both sides of the Atlantic and that year the American Association of Petroleum Geologists held a symposium in New York City to discuss them. I'm not there. And Overall the symposium was very critical of him when he wrote the next edition of his book on continents and Oceans He tried to address at least some of their criticisms and nineteen twenty eight a tornado touched down near Grottes and that rekindled beggars interest in that subject he and Elsa walked at the path that the tornado had followed took statements from eye-witnesses and agreed to work with meteorologist Yohannes. Let's men on a project to try to determine the causes houses of tornadoes. The following year Wagner published the final edition of his book on the origins of continents and oceans this one proposing six possible mechanisms mechanisms for what might cause continental drift. As that happen. Begging her was planning another trip to Greenland this time. He planned to set up a weather station on the ice sheet. Beat we're a team would over winter for two years to systematically gather data about the polar climate Vega was almost fifty and he recruited. Several younger. Scientist is for this expedition hoping to make sure there would be a new generation of polar researchers. This expedition really struggled from the start the stock market crash. Asha one thousand nine hundred eighty nine affected the global economy and their funding almost fell through when they got to greenland on April fifteenth of Nineteen thirty. The harbor was impassively Sibley iced over and it stayed that way for two months. The expedition had nearly a hundred tons of supplies to unload and it was basically impossible for them to you. Start doing so until July then. They faced unusually bad weather and propeller sleds. That did not work as they had hoped which kept them from being able to haul their requirement. Very well they had planned to set up a camp called ice Mitte or mid ice part way across the continent but as winter approached they were woefully behind schedule. Ideally Ice Minto would have been totally setup and fully supplied before the weather became impassable and the teams at the mid ice station and on the coast would stay where they were until until spring instead by September the shelter for the mid ice station and most of their supplies. We're still sitting at the harbor but researchers Yohannes. Hannah's Georgie and urged sores at the station vagner and some of his colleagues were absolutely convinced that they if they did not get more supplies out to ice data. The two researchers there were not going to survive the winter begging her letter relief expedition which departed by sled on September twenty first as they progressed just across the ice sheet though nearly everybody with them turned back because it was just too treacherous vaguer Rasmussen who was inoke and meteorologist urologist Fritz low. Were the only ones who got all the way to ice Mitte and they arrived there on October thirtieth by the time they got their low was suffering from extreme frostbite bite and his toes had to be amputated. They were pretty surprised to find the is mint team in an ice cave with enough supplies that they hoped they would make it through the winter. They were actually doing. Some scientific. Study from this improvised research station. An ice cave basically they seem to be doing okay with two people but they definitely did not have the supplies to sustain three more for the whole winter so vague film Sohn decided to head back to the coast leaving low behind assigned to recuperate. Those two men left on November. First hoping that the wind that they had been fighting on their way in would help them on the way out so the team at the coast. I really didn't have a way of knowing any of this and the team. It is meant it didn't have a way of knowing what happened after regular villains and left the ice cave in April of Nineteen nineteen thirty one where there had been no word from the two men people started searching for them. Kurt Wagner came to Greenland. Take his brother's spot. At the head of the expedition. Alfred Alfred body was found on May twelfth. Nineteen thirty-one carefully laid out and stitched into sleeping bag covers. The spot was marked with a CAIRN in a pair. You're of cross skis. Beggars cause of death is unknown but it could have been heart failure or possibly carbon monoxide poisoning from a camp stove. Whatever the cause was it is clear that Ross Mrs Philipson had survived Wagner and had tried to give him as thoughtful a burial as was possible on an ice sheet but villa was never seen again and his the body was never found the team that found veterans body after this search surrounded it with ice blocks and put up a large iron cross? The German government offered. It's a mount an expedition to bring his body back to Germany but beggars wife. Elsa insisted that it be left where it was. Apparently she found the idea that someday. Okay as the ice shifted and split. He might wind up floating at sea and an iceberg to thought that was a somewhat romantic and suitable end for him after Wagner beginners death some scientists continued to support his ideas of continental drift British geologist. Arthur Holmes worked out a model that explained how the continents moved through convection in the Earth's molten layers. But that was controversial as well Jack. That was a lot closer to how we understand it today without its most vocal. Okay proponent the idea of continental drift mostly fell out of favor in most places although it does seem to have been accepted by the Nazi government of Germany after Wagner honors death and it was sort of used as evidence of German innovation and Madera in Nazi propaganda. The idea that the continents were once connected by now now sunken land. Bridges became a lot more mainstream then in the nineteen fifties and sixties. A lot of research started backing up. The basic idea of continental drift wbt. A lot of it was connected to magnetism in molten material magnetic particles line up with the polls then stay in that position. Once the material cools and solidifies is in the nineteen fifties paleomagnetic research suggested that Europe and North America had once been connected based on the way these magnetic materials were oriented maps of the ocean floor that were created starting in the nineteen fifties made it clear that the sea floor is not flat. There are mid ocean ridges that we now oh no align with the edges of tectonic plates study of these ridges made it clear that they were both younger and thinner than other parts of the seafloor and the nineteen sixties researchers I discovered what looks like magnetic stripes on either sides of these ridges corresponding to the shifts in the polarity of the Earth's magnetic field and that magnetic nick phenomenon that we talked about earlier also the nineteen sixties the worldwide standardize seismograph network made it possible to spot global patterns in win and where earthquakes occurred. which once again we're connected to the movement of tectonic plates together? These and other discoveries made it clear that some vagaries ideas were right eight. The continents are on tectonic plates in these plates slowly. Move but his ideas for how and why they move weren't really close to the mark. The accepted idea today. Is that the plates are pushed apart at the mid ocean ridges in in subduction zones one plate slides under its neighbor pushing material back down into the Earth's mantle. Antle most of the time this movement is explained through convection in the molten mantle. But there is still some debate on exactly how this works. There's a lot of convection but then in terms of like okay. How specifically is the convection making this? Do that's where there's more debate still today. There is a lunar crater named for Alfred Wagner as well as the Alfred Wagner Institute for Polar and Marine Research and various honors and awards bear his name as. Well there's there's a theoretical explanation for Ice Crystal Formation and clouds called the burs. Ron dyson begging her process beggars former home. Also now the museum if if you want to read a lot more about this dispute about continental drift and how the idea grew into plate tectonics. There is a four volume set the continental drift controversy Z.. More than twenty two hundred pages long so to be clear. It was not part of the research for this episode as a lot of pages yet it exists. I wanted wanted everyone to know in case we really are so interested in finding out so so so much. More detail I don't know how many podcast episodes we would need needs to be able to create to have twenty two hundred pages of a book be research. We'll just do a new podcasts casts. Nothing but US reading that book allowed this year it will get kajillions of listeners. Definitely do you have a little bit of listener mail to you. This is from snow. Snow says Hello Holly and Tracy. I've been enjoying your podcast for about a year now. Both on my long commute while sewing on my time off through you you I discovered saw bones through them. I found Adam Carnivores podcasts so in addition to the enjoyment I get from your work. Thank you for guiding to other great entertainment slash learning options. I wanted to write today because three times very recently. I've laughed so loudly in my car. That other drivers probably heard me the first time. I'm pretty sure holly was reading my mind while you're listening to the Saturday classic on Morale Chief I winced upon hearing about her starting point work too early only a second before highly said that ballet fans who were now listening thing probably winced at that. My undergrad degree is in Bali in modern dance. Although I'm a librarian now then while listening to the episode on the WITCHFINDER General. I was thinking to myself that I needed to make note of the names of the witches familiar because they would be great pet names again immediately before holly said exactly the same thing finally Tracy made me laugh during the first of your behind the scenes many episodes when she said that she is sure she'd be accused of witchcraft to be outspoken. And having pet black cats well I too am outspoken and only getting more so as I settle firmly into middle age but instead of cats I have two dogs and five pet rats. Here's to feisty women and their various familiar or pets anyway thanks for many hours of fun and education keep up the great work snow. Thank you so much snow for this e mail. I wanted to read it number one because has three funny moments in our podcast episode. But I saw also I had forgotten at this point because this was literally twenty eight years ago for a period of a few years just after I graduated from college I also had a pet rat. I had a pet rat and three cats at that point very suspicious behavior although I was quite young then right anyway. Sometimes I think there's some `Chupacabras DNA. Okay and Mr Burns which. I don't know what that makes me so. Thank you so much snow for that. If you'd like to write to us we actually have a new tale address. It is history podcast at iheartradio DOT com. You can write to us about this or any other podcast episode or just to say hi or send us pictures. Here's your pets any of those things. All great we love email you can also find us all over social media at missed in history. That's where you'll find our facebook twitter pinterest and instagram program. You can come to our website which missed in history dot com to find schotz on all the episodes I have worked on together and a searchable archive of all the episodes and you can subscribe grabbed our show on Apple. podcast the iheartradio APP or anywhere else to get your podcast. Stuffy missed in history classes a production of iheartradio's how stuff works for more podcast for my heart radio. visit the iheartradio APP apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to your your favorite shows the future of business will be powered by next generation that works. Ai and machine learning cloud in edge computing All require reliable connectivity. Where and when you need it T.? 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