Ep. 065 - Special Guest Author Josh Hamon - The Real Martin Luther
Welcome to Christ is the cure with Nick Campbell. Here. We bring you theology apologetic and a resource for growth on the basis of scripture alone, sit back and enjoy today's episode. Welcome back to the show. This episode sixty five and say Rochester, special guest, it is Josh Hamilton who is the author of the real Martin Luther. It's a biography on mar Luther, but it's not your typical biography. It's not your stereotypical history. Book. It's actually kind of like a little comic book, and is really entertaining. Really well done. The information is accurate gives an objective point of view on the situation. And it's really hard to put down you'll keep wanting turn this page is a highly recommended, and so that being said this was actually going to be a reformation day episode. We're going to put this up on reformation days that you can hear about Martin Luther on the day itself. But we decided to do this week that way you can get your copy of the book before reformation day sit down with some hot chocolate. If it's cold enough where you are. And you can read your new Martin Luther book. There's also an opportunity to win a copy of this book on my Instagram page. I'm actually giving away three copies. And the official drawing will be on the twenty seventh. So that hopefully with today's shipping you can get it in time for affirmation day. So yeah, the way that you enter into that. Is you go to my screen page, which if you don't know is at Christ dot is dot the duck, your, and you find the picture of Martin Luther you like it or you're gonna my store I've been putting up in my story like every day you like it. And you get one injury you tax friends in it. You get another entry. You can also get another entry while putting up in your story and tagging my page in it, and you can get another injury by going to the real Martin Luther dot com and putting your Email in and you get a free sample of the first chapter of the book as well as getting another injury. So you can get four entries total. But with all that being said here is Josh Hammond. Would you mind telling everyone a bit about yourself, and what would you like people to know about you? It's a really interesting way the word the question because it's it's both, you know, talk about yourself. But then it's also talk specifically about what you want them. Like, what do you really want them to know? And then don't tell them what you don't want them to know. Or would you like them not to know? I thought about it's got a little wordy with myself there because I'm wordy. So my name's Josh Hammond. I live out in the Pacific northwest on the best coast in a suburb of Seattle. I've married. One wife, I have three children, and I'm usually thinking about what I could do to get one more tattoo. And then a I've got a I'm a regular guy with a day job who found himself ferry commuting and decided to to make that ferry commute worth it by writing a book, and then from there I've worked on you don't just trying to find a way to get people to know about gets people to know about the book start discussions about not just the book, but you know, subjects in the book. And that's kind of my thing. I I go to work. I work on the book, I go. So so you write a lot of fairies then. Yeah. Every every workday. I take a ferry. So it's I spent about an hour and a half on boats every not every day, but you know, five days a week. It's pretty different from you know, where I'm at. So you. So you wrote that you just decided to to write the book was there anything in particular that made you want to write the book. Well, I was trying to I I love I love reading. I love learning. And so it was kind of an interesting like could is this. It's an interesting combination. Because I learned a lot both in writing the book. But I also learned about about how books are how publishing works. How how marketing works how how pot how being on podcasts works. And so it it it was kind of this momentary idea that hey, I've works with my the workflow of my life. And it sounds really interesting. And it's I already low, you know, let's do something. Let's take something. I love in a new direction. And so let's take reading in a new direction. And then things kept people. See the things I needed to have happened happened. The right people said, yes. And so here we are. I I have I have an ESPN number and everything Mary nice so want that one thing I wanted to kind of backtrack on was that in your bio summer. I can't remember where is that you attempted to disprove God and failed miserably, and would you mind sharing a little bit more about that? Oh, yeah. So when I was a teenager. Also, I didn't grow up in the church. We would go to church Christmas and Easter when grandma grandpa were in town. And I was that was it. And then when I was a teenager, my mom decided we were going to do that anymore. We going to start going all the time. And I hated it. I didn't like it. I thought it was boring. It was an a we were going to we went to an episcopal church, which is what my father was raised as a Piscopo. And then I got the bright idea that if I can just prove that this is all nonsense, then we'll stop going to church, what could be what could be simpler than to just, you know, get rid of the reason for going in the first place, and so I did a couple of different things. I I started listening to the sermons. And I started reading the bible and other books, and so I had gone. My goal is to just stare into the abyss. And then say look abyss. But when I went and stared into the abyss Jesus stared back, and it was like oh. Dang. This is a man now everything's going to be different. And then the next summer, we moved because my father is in the military, and we moved a lot. And then we moved to this new church out in Bremerton in Washington. And I went to this thing. I'd never done called youth group and the youth the guy at the youth group had talked about this new idea that I'd never heard called reading your bible every day and. So yeah, I honestly came to Jesus kicking and screaming because I expected this this to be impossible. And but sometimes when you actually look you actually try like, oh, well, this isn't the this isn't what I was hoping for. But this is well, it's frankly better than I was hoping for because I didn't know what I was really asking for in the beginning. Yeah. God's voting that way in one of those little ironies life. I guess. Yes. So I kind of had that experience to well, not not in the same light. But I come from an unchurched background as well. So I was curious about that in terms of who decided to write the book on going back to the book. What made you choose Luther like did you have him in mind already? Or was there something specific that you just had to choose later or? So that's a little bit of a story in itself. So he was not my first pick. Actually, he wasn't even on my radar initially. But what I decided was in my initial pick. Who I I'm keeping secret for secret purposes? I I thought about it, and I got really excited about it. And then I thought what the book needed to be the book needed something to be different. It couldn't just be well written it needed more than that. So I approached a local illustrator who I knew and said, hey, what if this book was half book half comic and went through this whole thing and made her a PowerPoint presentation. And her response was your project is too big into small. The bookie wanna do is too big. I don't think we can really do it. Then your project is too small because what you wanna do is just one book. And I think if I want to do this. I want to sign up to do I wanted to do something that we can do as a series. And so that led to a lot of conversations about, you know, not just the my first pick. But also, how would the former? Matt and the style of the book lend itself to a series and from there we developed the, holy misfits concept. And then once we settled on that we saw we looked around and we decided that. The five hundred diversity of the reformation was last October. And we decided that he was timely enough that there'd be more general interest in in and coming and while I was saved in an episcopal church. I now go to a nice reformed church, and if felt like an easy place to like find a book, but also find a niche and know, how to talk to that group of people, and because the whole the misfits concept means that next book won't be about a Protestant, man. We wanna do of one about a Catholic woman, we want to we really, you know. So I think while we didn't he wasn't my first choice. I think he I think he's a no brainer for talking about. Holy misfits. And talking about our heroes in seeing our heroes in a little more realistically. And then I'm hoping that will open the door and Brit, you know, kind of bridge the gap. So that when I write about not your heroes. Your people are going to be more open to. Being more honest about their here's but also being willing to be like, wow. These other folks from these other camps, they pretty awesome, or they did some really amazing stuff or God used them in amazing ways. Because it's not just you know, good reformed, Germans and Englishmen who changed the world. It's not just those people who were used of God, there's so many people and a bunch of them. We don't know because I would challenge most reformed folks named five important Catholic women, and I think most of them couldn't. And I and I think well, no one's gonna we're never going to know all of them. That's just too big a list. I think we could we could all benefit from knowing a few, you know, having a few more names. From different camps and tribes. And yet they're not gonna agree with us. The logically completely and some of them will have bad theology, but guide us God used bad people. So don't want to throw him out with the bathwater. Just because they aren't a five point Calvin est, or you know. The cat. So there was some really interesting Catholic mystics up. I haven't we haven't picked a second person. But obviously, I'm starting to work on that. And think about that and try to find who that next person could be in terms of learning from people who I mean, don't see eye to eye with us really, I consider as Lewis to be one of those individuals because a lot of people don't recognize that illogically he had some some issues, but within that he was very influential still is obviously with mere Christianity. And all that especially for me whenever I first met Christ. And so you can still learn stuff from each individual. They don't have to necessarily see. But we'll and the other thing that I think CS Lewis is a great example of that also because you don't realize how other people see him. So one of the groups are actually really love CS Lewis and quote him all the time. But a lot of people don't know, this is the Mormons that is interesting and part of that's because CS Lewis his style was while he was he? He did it from axioms instead of from the bible proper. And that unfortunately, leaves it fortunately or unfortunately, leaves him open to interpretation a little bit more than I think he himself would have wanted. But it was his time and place that the way he was influential was by not arguing from the text. But by arguing from like self axioms are self evident truths. You know, that's the basis in which make great which are great for the basis of a logical argument. And that was his you know, that was really his wheelhouse was to talk in a way that you didn't have to know the bible at all. He also critically got you there, and you're like, and it made sense or you may we weren't convinced. But you totally saw his point. You saw the through line of his of his thinking, he was like, the logic master in the midst of all, yeah. Well, so you so you can't say what your first pick is. Then can you Isla choose not to know? 'cause I I'm hoping I'm hoping to get them into the series. But I haven't he he's not a Catholic woman. So you won't be the second one, and I don't wanna lay seeds the might not work out or might might take a little more time. Yeah. That's fair. So in terms of Luther and his life. How did you choose what you're going to include and exclude and all that? So we a lot of those choices were made under that. Holy misfits, concept, which I think I'm going to take a second. Explain a little more because I think I I started talking about it without really defining it, sure. And the idea is that there are two point two billion people in the world today who call themselves Christians, they agree on nothing. Not one single thing. And so and we're in all these tribes and sex and all the tribes have their own heroes. And we know all the cool stuff they did. And we're ready to high five them, and we almost never hear about the other tribes heroes. And if we do we actually hear the bad stuff, right? So if your former you've heard all the great stuff about Luther, but if you're a Catholic you've heard all the bad stuff and both sides are right in both sides are wrong. So both sides have a lot to learn. So the goal is with with Luther end with everyone is to get is to open it up. And just say here's what happened. Good bad other. Here's what they said. Here's what they did. Here's how they responded. And here's how the world is different. It doesn't and not necessarily to judge it. But to just say, here's what was actually happening. Here's or here's what they actually did. And then and then some of the things to it's like, here's some things you've been told that probably aren't true or historically were not. We're just not sure if that really happened that way or if it's just lower or if. It's just rumor that spin turned in fact, which is through time which happens quite often. So right. My my favorite one is the Polian was not short. He was he was a normal sized. He was actually like one inch tall time. But he was painted short in one painting. And now he's short forever and ever even though he's not even though he's not. So with that concept of we just wanna tell what how then and we want to be open to some bad, the bad stuff, the good stuff, and the this is maybe not historically accurate or just we just don't have great evidence. That's that was kind of the lens for Luther which was easy for the including part. It was actually hard on the excluding part. Because a lot of the good stuff. We've heard a lot of better quotes a lot of the juicier stories. All come from this book that was written after he died called table talk. Which is typically regarded, but I want I wish people would use it with a little more caution because it was not. Written by him. It was not written by his his right hand. Folks. It was written by a collection of people, and it's a bunch of snippets. And so it's like everyone remembering a social media posts they did. And then took putting that all together because there's no context a lot of the stories either. And so in there are these beautiful things he may or may not have said to his wife that are really endearing and touching. But also in there, it says that he said that Jesus was a repeat offender adulterer. And so I would I well you can't throw the whole book out because it was written twenty years after he died so not super far not super far out. But at the same time, there's no it's it's we treat it like a primary source when maybe when it's like a one it's almost not a primary source, but at the same time, it's so how do you? How do you use that information in terms of what happened? What didn't happen? What Luther said? And didn't say what he believed in didn't believe right. When so much of it comes from now. Fortunately, about a third of his sermons were written down and published which is a couple which is like twenty five hundred. So we have a ton of his his own writing that we know is his from for primary sources. So we don't need just the table talk book, we have all this other stuff, and he said, plenty of awesome and awful things in the other in his own publications, which is helpful for getting that out there. But I think the the big goal was just here's what happened and you. Have to like it. We agree with it or think, it's a good thing. But here's what happened. Yeah. So. And terms of the excluding was there. A specific reason why you decided to go as far as you did in terms of the negative aspects of Luther is life that people use you bring up like you did talk about his temper if I remember correctly, and you talking about cursing, but more visit at anti semitic type writings like that is there where place where he decided to draw the line. And if so why did you I think I just tried to keep things tasteful? But at the same time. Yeah, he wrote anti semitic stuff at the end of his life. He just did. He was super foul mouth. He was so foul mouth that even even though it was somewhat typical of the time. He he would get even his friends would be like, hey, I think. That might have been too much. And then he just blame them if I agree. It's your fault. It's not my fault that I'm angry. It's your fault. And so I think it's it doesn't need to be glossed over what he what he changed. He changed western civilization that does it. But that doesn't make his faults. Okay. No. It just means that both things were true. He had these faults. He he started off very very pro Jewish in the beginning. But then towards the end of his life. He totally totally wasn't. And I'm I'm writing I'm writing historic. I'm writing history. So I'm not analyzing. Here's what happened, you know this. Here's the key event where he changed and became a versus. No, here's here's what happened. Here's what he's wrote. He wrote this one public eight the peasants revolted, and he wrote a letter he wrote a publication called against the murderous thieving horde of peasants in which she told them, they should all just, you know. Nope, got into got her. Dane, these authorities over you. So you need to just deal with it. And then it was so harshly written that his friends told him that maybe that shouldn't maybe you overdid it there. And so he wrote a follow up letter in which he said, no, I was totally right. I was mean is I meant to be it's the peasants fault. They deserve to be slaughtered. It was awful. And so, but I don't wanna make that make his I don't want. Those those parts of him to be his whole life either. Because. Because he did he did I think he fairly pointed out that the indulgence system was being abused. And it was being abused against what was written as doctrine in the Catholic church and was published doctrine. And he did he did reform. How we the whole system of how we get married. Not intentionally. But he did he was the one who kept music and art in Protestantism if they if he wasn't there. I don't know what would have happened. I don't know if we'd sing it. Search. Yeah. Because he amongst all the reformers, he was the only one who thought music and art were important. You don't honestly that was one of the things that I whenever I was reading through between the marriage and the music. I was like, well, I honestly never heard of that before until I read your book. So that was interesting tidbit there. I know he wrote a lot of hymns like prior by didn't know that he kind of changed the way we operated, I guess. Right. And I think like I said some of that I think was unintentional a lot. I mean, some of the things in this like even while he intentionally was trying to reform the church as you can imagine. He said he called himself a reformer. He wasn't trying to create a new church. She was just trying to get he was trying to reform the current system. I mean, the first the first literature he wrote for the church where Latin we're in Latin and we're meant to be just a reformed mass. It was it took a little bit before the whole before he wrote a Nacuer service. Right. That's one of those misconceptions like, oh, yeah. Luther broke off. And you want to start his whole new church. It's like, no he's just trying to fix the church was there. So that's right. That was. Yeah. That was his initial goal. And then later it did change to wanting to split because as his he started meeting with other reformers, he was also wanting to split from them. Yeah. Did become he did become intention intentionally devices? Yeah, he did become meaningfully divisive. But it wasn't his initial goal when he initially we on October thirty first we celebrate him nailing the ninety five theses to the church door, which is one of those things that may or may not have happened. It might have happened. It just might not have happened. But even when he had done that that was like his third or fourth writing against adults is abuses. It wasn't his first one. So when he did it he did not think this is going to change the world, I'm going to total. It might my Instagram is going to blow up after this, you he was he went to the church in between going to the grocery store and picking up the mail, and you know, I'm gonna start, you know, I'm still trying to get this debate going. And so here we go. But he didn't I quite confident. He had no idea that it was going to become internationally. You know, international issue at the time. Yeah. And I mean in this one of the we expected that. Will happen immediately. But like you said it wasn't like that at all. It was a kind of bubbled up to that. I was wondering about this who in your research. I think it was or sprawl is kind of a random thing had told the story. I guess maybe a myth about kids actually taking his ninety five theses thawing Monto printing press, and that's how it all got around. Is there anything verifiable about that? Or is that I I haven't heard that particular story. But whether so one of the things we know he did is he sent a copy to the archbishop. Because he well a common way for people at university to start debates was the nailing, you know, we think of it as like, you know, a nine pound hammer railroad nail putting on the ninety five theses up in reality. It was the church bulletin board was just on the door. So you tacked on the door. And that's so the the fact that it might have happened. So it's totally possible that it happened. But we know he sent a copy to the archbishop. And that's what started off the first diet. So. So I don't know if the kids did it, but it was going to happen anyway because he was doing this in an official manner. He wasn't doing it quietly. He had art like I said he'd already been writing and publishing before that. And the printing presses sixty five this years old at this point. So getting you know, that was that'd be a typical mode of publication. For for someone at his at his level as a professor. Yeah. So in terms of I guess the outcome of the reformation a lot of people consider it to be an actual failure. Because of the expressions of the Christian faith. Do you think that he was it as a failure? I think I think if he if he could you know, if he took a break from from the halo and hung out. I think I don't think he'd be happy because it wouldn't be his expression the way he was expressing it. In terms of what the faith was meant to be. But show more objectively doesn't feel like the word subjectively in my opinion was the reformation of failure. No, not not it wasn't the success. It could have been. But I think the reality was part of us leading the leading the medieval ages and entering the renaissance was it was going the church was going to change. And it was the reformers who walked confidently into the renaissance into all these academics. Who are suddenly discovering the primary sources again who are suddenly reading things in their original language, not just the bible, but, you know, Greek literature and Roman literature, and it was the reformers who instead of the instead of the renaissance being academics attack on the church. The reformation was the church trying to deal with it itself. Right. And I think in that way, I think it was a success. Instead of what we have done more modern Lii in our American culture wars, which I think we lost. That was just throw that grenade. I wasn't planning on it. It's it's welcomed. I agree. It's it was it was the church trying to deal with the reality with realities of life and the bible and history within the church, and obviously the emperor got involved. So it wasn't just totally neatly, you know, within the family so to speak, but if the reformation hadn't occurred, the academics were were they already were. But they were going to attack the church, and I don't know how that would have gone. And I so I'm thinking it was God's plan. Not for it to not go that way since there's all these reforms, not just not just Luther but whole whole slew of them over the next hundred and fifty years. Yeah. And I mean, there's plenty of things that were beneficial that came out of the reformation. I mean, you can pretty much think freedom of religion separation of church and state and stuff like that from those principles at least. So I guess the biggest thing I've heard of it being a failure was the thirty thousand denominations kind of thing. But and this is one of those areas where it's like, well, I guess it depends on how you define the nomination. And how you see it. Yeah. It and. You know, he reformed the Catholic church somewhat. It didn't happen during his lifetime. But the indulgence system still exists except today, you there's no money involved. It's forbid money is forbidden from being involved and the system where you got like specific amount of time off of purgatory. There's also been removed. It is still meant to be a benefit to help you spend less time in purgatory. But I think I think they they the indulgence system was reformed in such a way that it got back to the spirit of indulgences, which I learned a whole bunch about. Because I didn't know anything about that. But the system of indulgences was like initially kind. It was initially invented to deal with like sin as a math problem. You know, if I if I still your wallet. That's one cent. If I punch you in the face that's two sins. And if if there's if sin is quantifiable, and there are earth the consequences for sin because punched in the face. So like, you know, while while God has alternate Justice. I might need some earthly consequences to teach me that maybe I shouldn't be punching podcast hosts in the face. And that was kind of the initial. Best. I can tell that's what the indulgence system was really about. And then by the time, we get to Luther time, it's totally out of whack and getting abused. Because now it's people being told you can go you can go to heaven with doesn't matter what you did life. And all you gotta do is donate enough money. And you know, it wasn't what it was meant to be. And after his time that change. So he there were some of the some of his gold some of the reforms. He was aiming for did happen. What was it at Trent that they fix that? The I don't I don't know off hand. I just know it was after it happened to separate times there with the money part was different than the purgatory like specific time in purgatory part. And I know what happened after he died. But I I'm sorry. I'm I'm a I spent a lot of time learning about Luther but not as much time about. Yeah. I thought it was interesting that you mentioned his dialogues with arrest MOUs for some reason, I've never read those did you by chance get a chance to look into those. I did. I just touch. I did I did the the if you read the introduction to the bondage of the will there's a that's because that's actually his response to a book by harassment, right? That's that was most of what I read. I just it was clear I didn't read the whole bondage of the will book because while I'm it's really important and historical and seminal and deta data. It's it's super long and dry, and I wanna read history books and comic books. But it was really interesting to me to learn that they were less enemies and more. They were more respectful than I had come to understand. And I learned a lot about the little that I've ever heard about harassment's was just you know, he was this Catholic who wrote who wrote and was I think he wanted to reform the church too. But in a different way from different from from definitely a different perspective. So I I guess I gained a little more respect for Erasmus from the fact that he dealt with it from the page and not just from the, hey, whatever, you know. This is how it is. This is how it's gotta be he dealt with it from an intellectual level of like, we can talk about this. And here's why here's where I disagree. And then Luther Luther and they could have that discussion. Which is kind of what Luther was really wanting was we we should talk about these things because I think if we could talk about them, we could fix them. Because isn't it? You know, it shouldn't it the obvious that some of these things don't work or don't make sense or clearly or against the catechism like. And what and that was the goal right to start a debate. Right. And I mean, they they discuss things way better than than we do today. Really think about it. Like, oh, yeah. I'm gonna ride up this really long for well thought out thing, and you're going to respond to it's like that doesn't that doesn't really happen anymore. Right. The trolls of trolls have taken over. It's all Twitter now. Right. Well, yeah. It's all well. Yeah. You're right. It's also very short. Yeah. Is not they don't vote the much effort. So it's kind of it's kind of a refreshing thing to see those kind of dialogues whenever you're looking back in history. So whenever you were researching for the book was there anything that struck out in particular? I know you mentioned indulges is being something that you're kinda like woo. But. I did learn I did learn a lot about a lot of things. I think maybe one of my favorite ones was I had no idea how much he respected his his wife and not that I had heard he was mean or awful to her. I just I didn't realize how much he really thought for her and cared for. For one one point he's gas to go and travel, but in his in his he needs a new pastor to get hired locally. And because he has to go travel. He sends his wife and a couple of his better, you know, his his right hand people to go figure it out. He says I need you, can you know, I need you to go help pick a pastor. And I keep it. I can't go, but it's so important needs to happen. And so he sent her. She managed the money. He was not good at managing money. He didn't do crazy like awful things with money. He just wasn't good at it. I I was really touched by their interactions. Unfortunately, we don't have many if we don't have her writings, we just have his. And but they're they're super he's he's fought I'm getting tongue tied just being excited about how how nice they were how nice he was to her and how much he respected her. He gave her he called her his doctor, and she was in fact, his doctor and she called her his Lord, not capital LURD, but L O R D, but like king. Yeah. We're sire. And I know not all the there's a there's a lot of men in church history have done a lot of great things. And a lot of them have been awful, husbands and awful parents. And again, not saying Martin Luther was perfect, but and he didn't didn't necessarily intend to ever get married and he didn't initially intend to marry her. But she asked him in another guy at the same time in. He said, yes, but really it was really cool to hear that you know, he he cared for her. He respected her he loved her. And then he cared respected as children. Yeah. Actually, give a good deal about her in your book to more than I actually had known about previously as well. You don't really hear much about her? She was always kind of like, oh, well, you know, Martin Luther kind of had to marry her is what I always heard it as and this is what happened as like. Well, okay, in I just never really questioned it for some reason. And then I read your book 'cause that's refreshing. I just didn't know that. Yeah. She's actually the the chapter on hers the longest chapter because she is that important like he lived as long as he lived because she was his Dr. The he was given the monastery at a certain point in this of a building with forty rooms on the first floor, and even if he had been like really well organized, and thoughtful and good at money and all that stuff. Like, that's how do you take care of that and write and preach and have borders, and and and Dan. They were a great team. I think is what it really came down to. And while I don't think he intended. He definitely didn't intend to marry her. I don't think and I don't know that they were in love and love at the beginning. I think I think she appreciated his fearlessness because at that time he had two death sentences. And I think he appreciated that she was tough bum. One of they tried to marry her off to another guy whose name isn't coming to mind, but she wouldn't because he was a jerk. And that was it. In fact, she wrote a letter asking a friend for help and he responded with he's Mary. He's not married. He's single. He's a Christian. He has a job. What's the problem? And her response was I don't like him. I don't respect him you marry me or Luther should marry me. And that's a pretty bold statement, especially for a woman in the sixteenth century who if she didn't get married. She didn't have a lot of options and her family had already paid a dowry for her to become a nun, and they did that because they put her in the cheapest option available. So they were never going to have another dour refer her to marry another man. Yeah. So I found myself having a lot of respect for the fact that she was tough, and she was willing to she was willing to do the right thing is willing even if other people didn't like it. Yeah. She she had to be tough to to be with Martin Luther. It's like well in this situation. And the way, you know, he was it was a good fit. Yeah. So whenever it comes to the series. Do you know how many volumes you're kind of aiming for or you're just taking a step at a time? We're just taking a step at a time. I mean, it makes sense if this this becomes my project for the rest of my life that doesn't sound that doesn't sound half bad. I'll get to learn about a bunch of cool people all get to meet a bunch of cool people. I'll get to you know, that sounds great. If it just becomes you know, three or five or whatnot. That's you know, that is what it is. It's my first this is my biggest project ever. So I don't know. And I don't necessarily have a goal other than to. To make some, you know, make a book make books worth reading and help end. And you know, I like, I really do really. I really do like the, holy misfits concept. I like that. It's about just here's what happened. Here are these people you may not have either you read about or you haven't read about, but you don't know the whole story because all we ever tell each other is the snippets the really good and the really bad. But here's here's more of a complete picture, or at least an introduction to a complete picture. Yeah. With an I was thinking about whenever I was reading your book that well a lot of people don't like to just sit down and read a heart history book. I'm I guess I'm one of those people are weird because a lot of people I talk to you. They don't really care about history that much because they don't like reading through the material. But the way you present the materials anyone could read and enjoy it. And with that said, I mean, you could probably make books that are kind of in that stall on periods of history. If you really wanted to like the early church or something if you really felt ambitious I guess that'd be quite the project. Yeah. Especially the illustrations, man. Yeah. And fortunately, I like Bryn did all the rations, and I like them all and I love there's some of them that I really love. And I'm I'm with you. I like reading history I like reading biography, but a lot of people. Yeah. Don't wanna slog through it. But here's a book one hundred percent don't have to slog through whether it's your typical thing or not. So if you love it, if if you let history you're gonna love this book. And if you don't love history, you're going to love how you this. You're gonna love learning about history this way. Because it is. It's it's it's great. If it's especially if sarcasm is your love language. Then you know, it's a good time. It'll you'll you'll laugh you'll smirk you'll you'll really rise at a couple of times. I I had far too many silly jokes. And some of them are really funny for me. And I've realized since then like, oh, I guess only. I got that. Well, it's fine. I li- I wrote it I can like it. Yeah. That happens too often where you get that dead stare from either your kid or your wife because you just made it lame that job or something. Yeah. Gary Chapman, should definitely add sarcasm slowing which that's that's a good one. Maybe you should consider that as a field to. Yeah. Alright. Alright. His follow up book missing missing to love languages, sarcasm and bacon. Yeah. I was. You were really close Gary. I mean, five out of seven rock-solid. Yeah. That's good. And I and I love the endorsements on the back of your book. Honestly. You got an endorsement from Josh Hammond. That was really, you know, telling, you know, this book looks really great on you, really, really great. And I so the back of the book is full of these fake endorsements like what you're being very kind about. I got the idea from reading they're hilarious. Really? I got it from Ellen generous. Oh, she has the you should I've got I don't know what the books called because I just looked at the back. But the first one is you look really great holding this book, and then it says L generous author of this book. And then the next one is like, but seriously, you're looking awesome today. Did you do something with your hair on the generous? And then the very last two are like I don't want. Don't tell anybody else. But you're my favorite Ellen Degeneres author spoke when you got John Tetsuo on the back of this thing. It's like, man. That's that's impressive. Yeah. Just because he's been dead for hundreds of years. Doesn't mean I can't miss quote him happens all the time. So all right. Now, it's really cool. So one last conquer ball for you. I noticed the ministry of war. I was trying to look a little bit more into that. Is that kind of the platform you're creating then for what's going on. Yes. So the there's four of us there's myself, and then Brin James who to the rations and then her husband Ryan James who helped with website and some GRA graphic design and trying to get him to finish a banner right now because we're going to be out of Comecon. And then my wife helps with marketing and find in finding new avenues to to reach out to as and some of, you know, but as we we were a team in we needed a name, and I've had the ministry of were edgy mail since high school, and I was like, well, what if we just call theirselves that? We're nobody's nobody, you know, who cares. And then the James is we're like extra. Yeah. We kind of like that idea actually like sweet is that domain available. Yes. It is. So right now, we're really focused. We have one book. So we're just really focused on the book. And then we're we're hoping to grow it into. Yeah. The series of more of a platform, which will call the ministry of war. We don't have a funny slogan. The go with that yet. We're not here to fight you. But I'm just I I guess I really wanna be offensive or make people concerned and its ministry of war with first book of Martin Luther so knows getting. Yeah. There. It's perfect. It's perfect. Where is the comic? Con isn't in Washington. Right seattle. Is that what it said there's one there is while there's lots of them. I'm we're going to be at the it's called the jet city comic show, which is in Tacoma of gels which another big city up in Washington. But we have a boot we're going to have it's November third and fourth for all your western Washington listeners. We'll have a booth and then I'm actually doing a discussion called from boring to captivating the power of comics and talking about how comics could make things better. And how fate comics makes things worse. All right. Yeah. So if you're up in Washington there you go. So I appreciate you taking the time to sending me the book and coming on the show is been fun. Now, this has been great. I really appreciate it. Yeah. So hopefully, we can child a bit later maybe down the road whenever you get another book out or whatever's happening, and do you have any last places? You wanna point the listeners to? Oh, yeah. So we have you can get a free sample of the book at our website, the real Martin Luther dot com. It's now we just put it out on kindle, and so you can get a set a sample on kindle through Amazon, or it's part of the kindle unlimited program. So if you subscribe to that, you can check the book out via kindle unlimited. But honestly, I just I'd love for people to check it out read the sample. Write me, an Email telling me how much they hate it or love it or doesn't make any sense. I've had a lot of fun meeting people in just having conversations and answering questions and hearing different perspectives and ideas, and you know, I I I'd love it. If you feel free to reach out, I'm still I'm I'm almost completely obscure. And so I'm really easy to get a hold of still. I don't have any gatekeepers. It's a fun book. Have you know? I hope I hope people will get out. I hope we'll have a good time. All right, man. Thank you. So there you have it. If you want to connect to Josh you can find him on Instagram as well. And I believe I tagged him in the post that is doing the giveaway. So if you go in the giveaway, you'll see his name or the real Martin Luther is page in the the caption there. So you can do that. You can also go to the real Martin Luther dot com. Get your free sample or just ordered the book because it really is a great book either recommended I really do that being said we will look forward to next week. I'm not really sure on the progress of the trinity episode in the series. It may be more the one part because I am wanting to ensure that I'm getting all the information. You guys would need to be well informed while equipped and well prepared to talk about trying to terrorism. In life. So that being said, God bless you all and have a great great weekend.