23 September, 2020 Episode 792 Where is the Dark Energy?
Is Twists this week in science episode number. Seven hundred ninety two recorded on Wednesday September twenty third twenty twenty. Wear is the dark energy everyone I'm Dr Kiki, and tonight we will fill your brains with friends, zones, old sperm, and more brains. Thanks to the Burroughs Wellcome Fund and our patriots sponsors for their generous support of twists. You can become a part of the Patriot community patriarch dot com slash this week in science. squareness disclaimer science. It's the reason for the modern world. Why medicine is a thing out technology came to exist. It's a great collection of facts that have given humanity access to reliable knowledge reliable because it's Dr rationally based on evidence and experimentation take the evidence of facts collected by thousands of scientists using scientific method on the subject of global warming. Increases in atmospheric carbon global temperature rise warming oceans melting ice sheets retreating glaciers decreased snow cover rising sea levels increases in extreme weather events, ocean acidification. Now contrast that with the politician who simply. It'll just start getting cooler. You just watch I don't think science knows actually, and while not thinking saints knows is nothing new amongst politicians manufacturers, the fossil fuel industry religion racist lawyers, fighting DNA evidence. Whoever's job? It is to convince people to wear magnets go on prepackaged diets or avoid vaccinating their kids. None of these are reliable sources of information science works because it comes from the most reliable source of information humans have ever discovered a combination of reality rational, unbiased, -nology of observation, and of course, this week in science coming up next. I got kind of my neck. I. WanNA learn everything. Up with new discover if it happens every day. There's only one place. Of Knowledge. South. Aunts Kiki in Blair and a good science to you to Justin Blair and everyone out there. Welcome to another episode of this week in science we are back again. With all science that we fell in love with this last week that we just want to talk about because you know that is what we do and we have got so much more as well in store. I have. Great stories tonight, some really exciting stories I am excited about him microbial baby brains. Wobbly rings. And Arsenic because you know. Like arsenic is great. Just. Nice alternative and we have a guest here tonight Dr Kevin Croker and he's GonNa talk to us about dark energy and those g odes that we were. So intrigued by several weeks back. Yes. All Right Justin. What are you have I've got cova cats why Chicago's racist even after You die and asteroid heading for the earth. Also heading heading toward the earth. heading. Towards. I Love I love your. I love this anchor ship of ruining the teaser. Sorry I. Like Heading. The other I. was like, no, no, no. Listening politics the headlines and then turn off the PODCAST WE WANNA make sure. But I did have did the microbial baby brain story that you're bringing also as as I was going to throw that into the mix I can't wait to hear this one 'cause I just saw and I was like Oh this has to be on the show I. Love You bring I can't wait to hear though exciting it's. Yeah it's an animal corner. I brought really old spurt like really old sperm I brought Madison's in the friend zone and also stranger danger. So He. Could be. One Related. See can't be. Maybe, not hopefully not but as we jump into the podcast tonight, I would like to remind all of you that if you are not yet subscribed to this week in science, you can find us just about any place podcasts around and you can find us on Youtube and facebook and twitter which look for this week in science. Now, it's time for the science are right. I story at the head of our list. Wildly, rings do you guys remember that picture of a black hole that we were gifted with last year? No. You of data from several previous observations of that same black hole. That's at the center of Galaxy m eighty seven and a little leg Ju Jing using math and computer. They've made a movie they made a movie of the black hole. Now, it is not just a picture it's actually several images. It's like a Gif of a black hole and in looking at this beautyrest gift of. Of GIF GIF Gut. Looking at it, it's very obvious that the accretion disk of material that is around the black hole. Moves that the gravity of the black hole and the forces that are at work at play. Make it so that it's not just a static object. You can actually see that there is motion that there is energetic change over time and as as a sequence of. That take place over. About I don't know eight eight or nine years or so that they took a long time. Yes. Several years and when I say mathematics mathematical. Computer Science. Jing. Basically, they took the math, the mathematical model that they use to create. The most recent image, the most the image of the black hole, and they didn't have as many telescopes at work looking at the black hole in these previous observations and so. They took what data they had, and then they used the model of the black hole an and put it all together and so that's kind of simulated synthetic images in a sense It's real data. It's real stuff but it would not have been as pretty without the. Using. This astrophysics judging work very very advised stuff I. Don't know enough about, but I appreciate that they knew they had data from previous observations and they were able to take what we knew what we know and the stuff that that was created the programs that were created the the models that regretted and kind of work backward to give us more insight into this asked into this astronaut Michael Object. What I love about is the the that you're. You're sharing on video here. looks like an eyeball. Think of it kind of wobbly hula-hoop. It looked to me. It looks like an eyeball that's looking around and then occasionally has a light flashed in. The small and trying to figure out if it's Some sort of rotation, but it doesn't look like it. And I think that's the question whether. It's the material in the accretion ring accretion disk at the outer edge of the event horizon that it's you know it's getting energetic energized, and so this is the what we see. This is this isn't the rang it's not it's not like. It's not at the event horizon. Let somewhere somewhere in the middle thing. Powder. Kevin, you might know a little bit more about this. You're looking at some to accretion phenomenon. Here is most people are expecting to this. This is on, and so if there's whatever sitting inside this, this objects, this image. On it's sitting in the dark region. So there's something called the. Innermost, stable orbit for a photon and so if you're a particle of light and you're sort of around this thing, if you're inside that innermost stable orbit, you're probably you're not gonNa make it out unless you collide with something else. So things sort of get dark inside that region. and so that's about if I remember the number correctly I. Think it's Three Short Child Radii so you're maybe In the event horizon if there is one is sitting too short shot horizon. So the object is sitting sort of inside the. The the dark region maybe about sixty six percent ish think of the. Senate. Even further inside of the dark region. Yeah. So it's much more compact. Yeah. But it's interesting because the door creatures changing size to in these images which I find pretty interesting. So maybe even suggests that the the object is even smaller. On. The inside. So you're seeing quite a large region of the the accretion disk. Yeah. I think I mean it's just. So this is our our first imagery of as as close as we can get to a black hole something that does not emit light, and so we're looking at the light that is a rounded all the forces that are affecting it, and the fact that we've gone from just one image to now having this picture it's It's pretty profound and the fact that it's not static. The is part of the story to because there's a turbulence of some some sort taking place energies, kind of going in there that that may not have been expected in some models. So it's another paring down. Of there's models that won't fit this this discovery. Down in our understanding of hopefully, they'll be able to take more pictures next year this year, they were not able to because of covid. and. People not being able to convene in the same place and so the the measurements that had been taken historically. Were not taken again. So fingers crossed next year people will be able to get together and take more pictures and continue to monitor amity seven and other black holes that they might be looking at and give us more. More images more close ups on these. Incredibly dense interesting objects in our universe. All right. Justin. The WE'RE GONNA go from black hole wobbly rings two cats. Yeah. Okay. So back in May, there was a four year old cat. Living with the family that got affected by the COVID nineteen family got affected covid nineteen and somebody in the family died from. In House. Then, this cat started presenting a severe respiratory difficulty breathing in such, and so they took it into the veterinary hospital. This as this is still somewhat earlier in all of the pandemic. And they were like Oh this cat has died of covid earth shook from Cova announced. So so they tested this. This isn't Spain. Hospital in Barcelona, it was diagnosed with hyper trophic cardiomyopathy, which is not covid. So the cat dies because this is a horrible. Ailment. But thank God they did confirm that the cat was suffering. From, from this just hypersonic map, please hurt gets very large. Yep. Okay. The muscle builds up. Okay. So it's sort of like a chronic thing like it didn't happen acutely. It's sort of built up over time into to catch us read some critical level was like, nope, just happened to to die. After all of these events were taking place so Coincidence. However PC, our tests did confirm that the animal had been infected with the SARS Kovic too. So but but this did not show any lesions or the typical symptoms or anything of the diseases that come along with covert. The only reason they tested the cat was because of this coincidence. Otherwise wouldn't annot. serological tests on this cat and another cat that was also living in the same house showed the both cats had developed antibodies against SARS covid to. votes. In both cases, we have detected neutralizing antibodies. In other words, they have the ability to bind to the virus and block it. Explains Julio Blanco AIDS Research Institute researcher. This is important because it shows us that immune system if cats Kim deal with SARS cova to and and these specific cases protect them from developing symptoms. So now, we have two things going on now we find out. Cats can get this. And they can they haven't immunity to this as well in terms of the. Symptoms beyond. Then question is way. How did the cats get? Did the cats get it from people that they get it from the cats? Are Rushing was can catch then spread it to people. That go back and forth. World. Because they were like Oh God put on all the p. p. e. every time you go near a tiger. Right so how have this thing? Yeah. In this particular case I, guess these were very much indoor cats that didn't have access to other cats. The cat's caught it from mingling with other cats outside of how. Humans humans cat human to cat? Yes it's reverse When we get the disease from from animals with the other way, the animal caught it from. So tested the the strain of covert that these cats were positive for and it was ninety nine point nine percent similar to the virus that the owner had died from. So this was from. Human to animal transmission. So. Yeah. So given. The. Cave counselor now immune. How do we? How do we figure out how they've done it? This is something we can try to recreate humans in anyway. Given the number of people infected worldwide, and a very few reported cases of animals. Experts continue to to note that pets play a negligible role in the pretty mild SARS covered two. Cats can become very residually says infected and there's no evidence of transmission of the virus to humans although really. WHO's looking? Who's going around testing a symptomatic cats to say if they catch it and how I mean I don't think they've actually been able to cross off cat to human transmission. This is not something that has been got enough at this point. I mean just consider within household. If the cats can catch it and maybe it can go back the other direction but perhaps if they're neutralizing antibodies are strong. Then they control, you know they get infected but they control the infection fairly quickly and then. Don't really spread it. 'cause if not ones once the virus is neutralized, it's neutralized. It's not. It's not reproducing it's not potentially getting spread back. So potentially perpetuate. Julie still infected. It's just saying that they can perhaps. So a cat to cat transmission might be difficult. Here with the story. I love. Don't. Buddy. Eight. It means that we need to look at this find out of cats can transmit demons now, the thing about it is though. Cats to cap transmission cats don't seem like they. Socially distanced themselves anyway for the most part, they don't go hanging out snuggling with street. Have you watch those little videos where they attach a little? Crow to pay cat and this cat adventure and he goes around. All sorts of fun stuff. Yeah. Friends. Little cattles. Might be it might be another reason to keep your cats indoors. TOXIC PLASMA GANDHI I isn't enough just. Birds and lizards. Frogs. Yeah. there. Is something to the to the story we've heard about cats being able to catch coverted. Yes. The three groups of animals that at least as far as I know you know animal people are worried about right now besides bats and penguins of course is cats Moose, Stella Ferrets and And ALL OF A. Boar pig. That whole family. There is there is there is a report out of the Netherlands of a farmer who they believe became infected through minks. We still, Yep Nostalgia. Yep. They're more worried about the mustache farms themselves because those are moneymakers it's Farming. So it's not necessarily mixer vectors, the actually become ill and. Yet they become ill and they die and so if you have a mink farm that you're using the mink for for or whatever if the mink die off, then that's that's financial loss. So. Yes. But guess, there's the question. Blair has Romi about your sperm no. Yes. So Queen Mary. University of London and the Chinese Academy of Science and Non Jiang is an international collaboration and found the world's oldest sperm singular sperm like. Like, like a group whatever the collective noun for spur kind. Of and this was found in a piece of amber. which had a which was from the Cretaceous period which had. Trustees. Talking really old named Myanmar Cyprus who he and Previously. The oldest known examples of sperm we have found have been seventeen million years old. But this is looking to be. Hundreds of meal millions of years old about one, hundred, million years old this. This is old sperm. So fossilized sperm is so rare. Partially because it just it doesn't stay. Something that that is easily preserved. So actually looks like. The individuals in question had just. copulated, and so it was very fresh and then what happened. Big thing a sap land I guess. Yeah. These tunnel. Outwards millimeter long. These things crustaceans yes. So we're at the sad cons there underwater. A branch I don't know. Great Honestly. They were probably out of water for. foraging or something You know thinking about hermit crabs, crustaceans do spend time out on land. So that would. Yeah that they climbed a tree that was near a water source to eat leaves or something I don't remember out of Ocean one day. Thing and People. So This is my the last little twist of the story that I absolutely love is so oldest sperm. Crustacean one millimeter long. Giants firm so. There's implications here because a giant sperm, the other animals we've talked about giants. Furman are things like brew flies. So most animals including humans produce tens of millions of firm teeny titles firm in huge quantities they're playing the numbers game, but through flies and crustaceans like these are famous for making large sperm giant sperm to compete with one another inside of the female. So it's all about the strength, not the quantity no, you're saying large absence of. Urge sperm tiny still very tight. Meet Up. But just compared to ours sperm. Really big. and. So Y- these guys are only a millimeter big. So they're still teeny teeny tiny still need a microscope to see them and. They. The interesting thing here is that fruit flies current modern day animals that we found giants vermin thought sorry previously thought that this was kind of a a new kind of a novel evolutionary adaptation giant sperm but it was around two hundred million years ago in the direct line of invertebrates, and so there's an idea idea here that this was conserved over evolutionary time and so the idea of giant sperm is actually very old and very successful. So this this has implications for our study of reproduction overall but yeah also just the oldest firm ever. Very cool discovery. To. And the chance discovery also the chance that it was preserved and the chance that it was found and then to be able to realize what they're looking at and. Yes people sort of like look like they find amber and the first thing you do when you find a number is like what's in it and then you're like, okay. Absolutely I. Think this is old. Bechtel. Yeah there's actually there's there there are issues. There was an article recently about they were calling it a blood amber similar because the amber is they're using human labor that is not compensated and a similar to the idea of blood diamonds But blood amber is a big field and the amber very often is is is scientifically interesting and so there are potential ethical landmines. That are that are involved in using things like that So I did a quick Google and just let everyone know who's who's itching to know human sperm cell is about fifty micrometres. It's teams. UGG Tiny. But a fruit fly, drosophila. Yeah is five point eight centimeters search. Coil would super duper core I did not know. Lie Where's where's stash zoo? It's really just coiled up and eating I. Don't like those. Those little grow things you would get as a kid that we're in the like the little pill and then you add it to water. It's kind of like except it's it's just coiled. Like do you give one of them to the female? Here it is. Joint Serb it. Chocolates let's not talk with. Waiter. There Hoyle and they're delivered to the female in a tangled coil of expand inside. Fancy. Fancy. It's like Yeah Sprang Anyway. for those. Interested. In. The number Pi you might love this story there's been a new exoplanet discovered that orbits its star in. Jest three point one four days. That's right. Its orbital period is very close to. Pi. Oh. It's not exactly priming pike got out more digits but anyway, close enough the astronomers from the Keppler to mission who have identified this exoplanet thought people would like it because everybody likes a little bit of fun. So this is data recorded back in two thousand seventeen by NASA. Kepler's big space telescopes K. to mission. And using this potential looking for this potential planet they used ground based telescopes in Chile's Atacama desert called the search for habitable planets eclipsing ultra cool. Stars otherwise known as Beck you loose. SPECULA-. And they confirmed that there is this earth sized planet is point nine, five times the radius of Earth's, and it's a low orbiting a low mass star smaller than the sun is or being very closely and very, very quickly Still. Even though the star is cool and it's orbiting fairly closely, it would be too hot for life to. Exist they'd all they do think that the planet has a rocky core very similar to Earth's some might be something very interesting to study for potential habitability of other planets and how exoplanets unlike those planets in our solar system are evolving and moving through space and time guests Pi. It's the pipe planet. Go there and have pie. Justin tell me about this asteroid. Small. Near Earth? Asteroid. It's about the size of a school bus and it's heading towards earth. Is Miss Frizzle on it he was gone. Yep. Singley. Thankfully it will not be making a stop here as so many of earth's schools have been closed to the pandemic. It will be zipping by Thursday's September. Fourth, which is tomorrow some years later today my time I think. a distance of about thirteen thousand miles. From the planet service which I don't I, don't know. That sounds great. It's not close. It's close, but it's not. Very close. So that helps else is the moon. The Moon is. Two hundred and four, hundred thousand. That's that's up there the satellites that we have in juice stationary orbit. Or Twenty, two, thousand miles out. So this is. The thing. So Great Question. To see it. Probably. Did you say he's thirteen thousand miles thirteen thousand it was going to it's going to come closer than geosynchronous orbit. Yes. Yes. It's about halfway point of Ingram is Irvine right in between underneath. Zipping by this sounds like twenty twenty to me. Except that it's GonNa miss except that. It's GonNa Miss. Just don't. please. Sh-. You're. Even if The atmosphere. This thing is about fifteen to thirty feet wide If it did hit the earth, it would likely break up in the high atmosphere becoming a bright meteor known as a fireball though. These things apparently hit every once a year once every couple of. It's not completely off the map for for the size of object to be hurtling towards and actually fit the earth's atmosphere. So we're safe even if it does. The. The projections are off by a bit but what I can do is turn off all of my devices tomorrow and just say to my boss I'm sorry I had I. didn't have Internet the satellite got hit by a asteroid, the size of the school. Is Out of my control. Sorry. had nothing to do with. netflix still worked, but otherwise I was unable to do. Yeah, if it actually hit a settlement, that would be pretty pretty amazing shot. Going to be it's GonNa make please approach at you might not be able to see it four twelve a m. Pacific. Time. Seven twelve eastern time which. When I wake up. About what does that that'd be about one o'clock is CENTURY OPN time but it's GonNa, be a visible I think for possibly if you if you had the light two seater if you had the telescope maybe. Over the southeast. Pacific. Would have the sort of facing zoos. zips by. So I. Hope Somebody's on an airplane who can take a picture no that's not GonNa Happen Never. mind. COVID. I felt that one. This finding is they say there's hundred or one hundred, million of these small asteroids like the school either that's going to go by on Thursday at but they're small enough that we will only ever have a couple of days warning at this point that this thing is coming by St Them. Otherwise. We're GONNA pop these fireballs though so So troublesome. Yes. But this is part of the system that's allowing us to see larger ones we're looking for things that aren't you know fifteen to thirty feet, but maybe more in a four, hundred, sixty, foot wide or long. Size. So we are this is part of the system that is looking for the the earth ending threats. The larger? Asteroids after that the that would actually impose a really big problem for the earth. This is a small one, but it I like to know that this is taking place that there we do have is on space looking for these things. We can even tell the base directory things coming back in twenty forty one at which point it will make a more distant fly by than it did this time. We are due a new way. Yeah, we are tracking. These these objects in space we're trying we're trying to track the objects in space. We're also trying to track life back through its history and at one point in our planet, there was no oxygen. But there was life. So. The first, the first. Event Right? It was it was there was all sorts of lice before oxygen really became this thing that we're like. I love my oxygen filled air at one point in time life was like no. Toxic guess. So the question is what did those early organisms rely on there were photosynthetic organisms organisms that were chemo audit trophies where they were relying on chemical energy. There were also organisms they think that were photo synthesizing, but without oxygen oxygen takes the role of the electron carrier in photosynthesis and there are other elements that can take its role and many like. Two, thousand eight there was evidence of a bacterial use of arsenic. And they've been looking into it ever since, and there's now a paper published in communications earth environment by a group out of the University of Connecticut about their research looking into microbial mats that were found on. It, found up in the Atacama desert. So we we're talking about the Atacama. Desert. Where we're doing tells telescope observations of the universe where so finding bacteria that are living in this really dry. Low Oxygen High UV radiation environment, and They have found these maps that apparently are they. They say the best thing to be looking at to be approximating the study of what life was like. When it first got it, start on the planet. So, it's high-sulphur. There's water running over these microbial mats the microbial mats are in. This kind of stream environment that has zero oxygen completely hypoc sick anorexic no oxygen whatsoever and they think to date what the researchers have said is that every time they're looking at microbial mats that researchers like Oh, it's like life before life you know began the way that we look at it today he the researchers like, no no, not really because all these microbial mats you looking at they have oxygen atom. We found one that doesn't so. So. Now, they think that they can really look further at how at the processes that are in place in this high desert high uv high salinity, high sulfur. Zero Oxygen. High. Arsenic Environment. and really verify how they are how they're working. Maybe, the beginnings were arsenic based instead of arsenic and old lace. It's arsenic and old life life. Old Lice Era Is. Okay, moving into the presence. If you just tuned in. You are listening to this week in science. If you are interested in a twist shirt or Mug or other item of our merchandise, you can go to twist dot org and click on the Zaza Link Browser store and find all sorts of items that will show your love for twists and also help us out. All right I would love to further introduce our guest tonight Dr, Kevin Croker is an astrophysicist at the University of Hawaii at Manoa where he's studying dark energy and objects like neutron. Stars and G Odes and he recently authored a paper on g odes that we discussed on the show a few weeks ago. Thank you for joining us on the show to other knee it's A. Don't usually get to something like this, and so it's pretty exciting. Well we hope that you're having fun so far, and now that we're really Guinness Start asking you questions we hope that you continue to have fun. So I introduced Jones a few weeks back. But just for yourself how did you get interested in your field of study in astrophysics and how did you kind of come to focus on things like neutron stars and these dense weird objects in space I guess I should just say that at Undergrad I wasn't I didn't formerly study physics astronomy I was a computer scientist. Sarah engineering type, stuff but every night I used to get online and read the. phys DOT Oregon, whatever they're not paying me a promise. I used to read the what I call the hot sheets right just to see. What's going on sort of you know things like what you guys are doing here almond. So I was really interested in this sort of thing but I, felt that it is. Not Accessible to me like it was it was a very far reach. At the time but I got into. Richard Feinman a he's a he was really really a strong popularizer of science and his professional work is held in quite high regard. And I really liked his his stories. I really liked the guy like I was like this guy's pretty awesome. He's got a pretty cool life. I. Wonder if I could do something like this. So after after I finished the and spent a couple years the station I taught. Myself some physics engine, you know basic math that calculus had to do Algebra and calculus again on my own because I've forgotten it long and I sat in on some classes and professors were kind and they wrote some letters from me and I was able to able to get out here in Hawaii. And that's how I got here and it's high end up doing physics. So it out here because the. So, there's a world expert out here on a what's called a week scale super symmetry and insects. He's Totta. And sort of before before alleged sees didn't sort of find evidence or at least immediate evidence for this this model called weeks Kelsey. Super Symmetry. I was definitely looking like it was really really going to be viable if it was something that was going to be very relevant. and. So I decided that this abuse good place to be. I ended up with a with a different adviser that does neutrinos, which are these very tiny fragments of a nucleus on to think of them, and they don't like to interact with matter very much, and so they carry a lot of interesting information that you can't get otherwise. And he always hung out with the. Astronomers. Up It, up at the institute, and so because he was hanging out with them I, ended up hanging out with them and they worried about his particular friends I guess read about large-scale stuff said of cosmetology big things and so that's where my research topic eventually came from. I was ruing about very, very, very large-scale stuff like the biggest skills you can get. From. Something called the initial condition problem. So you have the Big Bang sort of the universe started in some very dense hot state. And then you can always ask the question. Okay. That's great and it agrees with data. Where'd that come from or what happened before that? and. So a lot of people will dismiss that as sort of like a metaphysics issue like this is beyond test ability or whatever but it's not and so people of Soto to worry about these things again. and. So I was initially sort of working on that idea and I was trying to sort of construct like A. Almost, like a biologically inspired model. So you instead of saying you know it just started into bang. About what came before because then you have the issue of specifying like what was initially there to get the equations to specify everything else correctly downstream. You can just say, well, there was a universe before that and what was before that another one before that and so this idea is not mine. It's been around and Russia for quite a while. and. So. I was playing with ideas like that. Then I was trying to build a model that have worked on instead of a more precise way. And I was failing I couldn't do it. Pretty heart a lot of people have failed have failed at this problem. This is a this is one of those big questions of. Together you're. Not. What the university, report the universe. Failed. Myself. Shot a little too long out I one didn't didn't get there. Yes. So, what happened though is I'm writing these this model down and I. I I expect it to find something that would look like. Will look like Derg dark matter, which is another one of these problems dealing with right now, and instead I found I kept getting these regions of dark energy. And, these small regions of dark energy and how was that's that can't be right This is. You know that's not that's not the way I thought about them ahead and then I just sort of fun. Wait a second. What would happen if you did have something like this? And I just ran really quickly the the numbers just on an envelope calculation and. And it was off by a a factor of one thousand. which sounds pretty awful but the sort of the leading explanations for a cosmological constant that don't work or off by about a factor of ten with one hundred, twenty zeroes after. So going from a Hydra Twenty Zeros to threes Zeros felt pretty good to me at the time. And so I wrote like a real quick paper, pushed it off to some journal and they got back to me pre fast delayed. Yeah. That's a cool idea. But do damn calculation. So. Yeah. So that's how I got started on this was. This weird coincidence that I wasn't expecting to find on. So I didn't know so much about the. Dark energy problem at all or any of these things because I was worried about sort. Like unrelated. So I sort of came at this problem from very different perspective. On and that ended up being somewhat useful down the road. Was that that adjusts your question I kind of win for a long time. It absolutely does but So you're coming at dark energy from this different perspective of where what where did the universe come from where did it all start? led down to this free small small things. So it was sort of focusing on extremely large stuff. Yeah, and then I found out that you get these really small things and they seem to contain the stuff you you wanted sort of to get at the pretty big but not ridiculously big stuff. So it was this weird connection between very, very, very vastly separated scales and that's weird. That's odd and so that sort of caught my attention and I kept playing with the idea. Lying. Though what? Well just heard. What just Heard that. The universe is connected from the macro to the micro scale. It is all. One continuous. Universe it's the same universe. So Kid. I hitting. It. Says Universe Earth this stating the captain obvious thing here but but. Finding a phenomenon. At that. It should there should be something that connects the very large observation to something that's actually taking place on the my nudist of scales they have to has to. Built on this foundation I way. So what? Did. You feel this way right 'cause 'cause I felt this way as well On. A lot of other people don't. So and. It was very difficult to sort of figure out why on. So I'm really interested to know where you were sort of exposed to this idea or where you develop this intuition. Oneida. We'll be. So. Argument isn't. Isn't. That's the argument between sort of. Quantum physics and work like people were. Like scales have disagreements in how they are able to calculate things, but they have to be connected because they're all phenomenon built on phenomenon. Built on on physics all the way down. So there has to be connected. There's. This scale that everything's just completely changes in has its own rules and isn't doesn't care what's happening at the other scale of the universe. So I should make a disclaimer I that the things that I work on and the the frameworks within which I work are Einstein's theory of general relativity. So and I really really last time I worked on quantum mechanics was years ago. Eight years ago or something like just just in my studies, right? Not Not with respect to any sort of research. So I'm very much a relativist and sort of A. A very bad applied mathematician maybe you could say So I am not qualified to speak on anything that has to do with quantum mechanics. So just were only with with general relativity and the way that. I would classical theories sort of stuff that happened before the advent of quantum mechanics are usually regarded is that they have property called locality. And so whatever is happening here and whatever is happening here like if they're going to somehow interact with each other. There has to be interaction sort of propagates at most late speed, and so there's the you can have delayed effects on, but to have some sort of. Non Local correlations or things that are happening at the same same time but it different places that notion is. Actually, can be ill posed in classical theories and so most people's expectation all within a theory general relativity is that you really shouldn't have effects like that taking place on. And so that's why dark energy is actually somewhat interesting on especially with the way, we went about doing it yet. So let's talk about dark energy firm and at that wasn't your focus but dark energy in the way that we understand it is we really don't know what it is. We know that it has to that it is a force that is involved in the expansion of the universe will decide that we don't know what it is is so there's a sort of. It's good to separate the observational evidence for thing, from the thing itself, and so the observational evidence for the thing is sort of coming from a couple of different places. So you've got the you've got the evidence from Supernova that are pretty far away in the city you build this distance ladder recent bootstrap. Your way up looking for relaxes a stars kind of move around. Like this and then you can get distance cities, proofing stars, leads, and you can see cepheids further out, and then you get the distance from to those and you can use the distance from the CEPHEIDS and UCD's exploding stars that are really bright, and then you can see much further out because they're much brighter and so you can sort of build this cable of distances out. And the Supernova looks sort of. Dimmer than they should, which tells you if you interpret it that way the easiest way to interpret it is that the universe is expanding faster than you thought it was and that's that was sort of the first observational evidence for. The phenomenon that has been attributed to dark energy. Got It. Okay. So an consequently there's. Other evidences has come into play so you can sort of. You can sort of look at the look in the sky and look at galaxies are. And you can sort of ask questions like if I have a galaxy here. And I draw a circle that's at the certain radius out from that galaxy. What's the probability to find another galaxy in that circle? And you consider answer that question for many different Radii of circles, and then you can play that game at every galaxy you pick on the sky and said that you get some sort of average description of the probability of you know if you're looking at one galaxy, how likely is that? There will be another one nearby. Said you look at sort of data like that, and that sort of gives you information on the expansion history of the universe. And you find that the the way that set up? Is. Suggestive that you have a certain amount of matter in your universe. And it doesn't matter accounts for maybe one third of the total. Energy that you need in the universe and so there's sort of like a missing sixty six percent. That that should be there on, but it's not acting like matter. And so it turns out that that number works with the same number that would cause the the brightness of the Supernova to be dimmer as much as we see them to be dimmed When we're talking about matter and energy matter the energy in the universe are we talking gravity? Okay No. So let's this is actually a really good point you bring up just in sort of a language issue and sort of the names dark matter and dark energy are pretty unfortunate names on. Their place August right yet just as holders of. Your easily confused because you hear you know about Einstein and energy is mass and all these things. So you think the energy matter and then like how how dark energy and dark matter different it's it's very it's sort of in the mind doesn't keep the concepts cleanly separated when when they actually should be on and so. I think it's funny that the original name dark energy always dark energy your eight. Of course it was it was something called. Mu Vacuum it was called Mu. So, this this Russian guy in like a Siberian prison camp like the sixties. wrote a paper about how you know you should expect to find there should be material that he called Mu. It should have very strange properties, but it should be there, and so this is another example I give you two examples of observational evidences, the of Supernova, and the brightness is in the sort of a it's called the turnover in the matter power spectrum is the phenomenon described before. And so there's also the theoretical argument that you should have interior like this. You can sort of play a mathematical game with the with Feinstein's equations, and you find that that most things that you know about sort of fall into a category one. But then. Light, falls into a category two. And there's two. Catholic. Is the three or four that are totally crazy and you don't worry about those. But it turns out, you can ask like, okay what are all the possible things if into category one? And There's one thing that's very strange. And We would call that thing now dark energy. But it's like a material. So the way that. They picked up the name dark energy is. A. You would not usually expect sort of a phenomenon to happen because material. So gleaner thought that it should happen during gravitational collapse into something crunching crunching crunching crunching, crunching down. That eventually, eventually everything squeezes into everything else. That you would form this new material. And so it wasn't. Thought for various reasons that are actually very very technical on. This localized regions of new material would somehow conspire to produce like on a large scale to effect, and so the I guess we should take a step back. How I should I should ask also you guys with me with respect to this notion of dark energy is just like type of stuff but just a different type of stuff. Okay. So, on and then I, guess the Chat Window told you guys that that GIO generic object of dark energy so it's it's a ball of. New Material and that's it. So just like the moon is a ball of fur rock. Star is ball of very hot gas. It's like a nuclear fire. On Neutron. Stars a bold neutrons a is a bowl of dark energy. And that's that's it. There's nothing else should have crazy to accept the properties of meal. New. Materials really weird stuff. Yes. So When I came across? Your paper that was recently published and the idea in recent and last year's paper and things talking about this idea of geodesy. The the concept of a black hole is something that people are fairly familiar with at this point. It's like, okay matter collapses down and then at a certain point, there's it. Smashes all up you have rent horizon, light dozen escape. You've got weird effects of the black hole and but that's just the weird black hole thing and now you're saying that some of these black holes can actually be. A different. Maybe they're matter that's black hold in the way that we would describe it normally and. Maybe, it's this new material or is it always material? So there's actually a really good question on. There are some models that that that say to you could make a black hole or you can make an object like a objects that would also have an event horizon and you can make ones that don't It really is sort of. Black Holes are sort of funny objects. Because there's sort of characterized entirely by maybe three things characterized by mass the characterized by their charge. If they have any new characterized by spin and those three numbers sufficed till I, give you everything you can ever get out of a black hole. At least if you're not playing hawking gains and that's why it's why black holes a problem off and people think that it's very interesting to study is because you have all this stuff information going into this object yet somehow all of that's broken down or digested just three numbers. And that's troublesome in various ways and people have really worked on this for for a while. So. You don't have to. You don't have to always form a black hole you don't always have to four. owed. These are sort of we don't know these are sort of solutions that are admitted by Einstein's equations and. On the outside of these solutions like outside of anywhere, any funny business would be happening. All of look, the same and so as far as observations can distinguish them all like local observations People thought that they were the same basically and so they didn't bother making a distinction and it's much easier to work with the black hole solutions like as a mathematical thing, they're far less complicated. So black hole solutions. If you go very far away from them, they exist in isolation. If you go very far away from them nothing, there's nothing out there and there's nothing happening. that really simplifies the math and black holes really it's gravitation and so if if something's close, it's going to get pulled in by gravity, but gravity falls off kind of with distance and. And South. So the thing is interesting about a black hole yet your you you said something that was actually very correct. The. Classical black hole solutions are what are called vacuum solutions so you don't have any stuff. Yet somehow it acts like there's stuff there you don't have any. And, for instance, the way they found the spinning solution occur solution, which is the one that that lie go fits the way forums against. The, the question that was posed was. What's the only way that I can sort of make a thing that if I rotate it in some direction, it looks the same and there's nothing special going on away from it. What's the only way that I can describe a universe that has that property? And the answer was the the curse solution. And so there is no description of any stuff. There is no sort of dynamical process where things were collapsing things we were creating the pressure is built up and there was a conversion into a spinning black hole. It's just you got this thing. And then people were like. Well, you know if this is if this is a real object and something like this has to be able to somehow. And then people you know add on ideas like that. But there is to my knowledge, no fully dynamical model of the formation of any objects like this at all whether it's your black hole. So people have done sort of. Just, really really toy models where you have a bunch of spherical cloud of dust coming together and by dust I actually mean it doesn't. It's pressureless. It doesn't sort of smack into itself and it just sort of collapses I. Mean there's models like that but I mean, you just saw the wobbling ring around the image of these things. That's nothing at all like what's going on right? So. Obviously, a lot more complexity than these. Models these vacuum models? Yeah. It is the problem with the mathematics as Einstein's Einstein's equations are just so gnarly that that you really make any progress at all you gotta start as simple as possible and. Isn't there some sort of a joke were a physicist is asked to describe a cow and then says, okay, sure cow is a completely spherical object. I with the most basic. Get, rid of all of the leg the you're the. Counter. How would probably put this article colleague like you? Can get you a lot of like a good. Speak Emotion. Cal Can do a lot for you. There we go. Approximation. How much methane spherical produces But how is it going to? How will the spiritual cow help you with Black Holes Geos? That is the question. and. So the answer. To. Me Was it won't. Yeah and so we had to sort of figure out. A way to deal with that, you know we can't play with Syrah cows if we're going to be in a real universe and we're gonNA deal with real. Sources. And these sorts of problems were beyond me and so I had to team up with a mathematician. and. And we worked pretty hard on this for awhile and we've been making some slow progress. And that was really the the sort of the thing that matters the most was the figuring out how to go about dealing with these very strong sources in Einstein's theory without making the approximations that are usually made when dealing with A. Strong sources locally like when looking at their mergers when looking at things that are recruiting onto them. And that was that was the pretty hard. That was the hard part. Of How had get these sources into like a bigger picture that fit together into a coherent whole. And that's actually what the three papers in this series the first paper in the series that you mentioned a deals with the. The base level of the calculation, and so the strategy is to sort of instead of all right. So he's taken back again. Usually, the way physics is taught in school. You guys hide it in physics is that if you understand the way the parts of a thing work. And departure simple. Then you can sort of build piece together the parts. Bit By bit by bit and build up a very complicated thing. If you understand how the parts work, you can understand how the whole works. So. This intuition or this sort of approach to a problem is physicist usually attach a a word to be called LINEAR. So if you know the parts, you know how to some works in its linear. And a lot of the things that we have. One of the theories that we have are are actually linear. So electricity magnetism ends up having this property and it's really nice and so we can do good things that very quickly. On newtonian gravity also has this property and so it's very nice to work with. Quantum mechanics also has this property, and so it's very nice to work with formalism. Einstein's general relativity does not have this property. It's not linear on. That's what makes it so hard to work with, you can't sort of use techniques that are you can't break the problem down a little chunks and then build up from those chunks. And historically working with general relativity, people have attempted to that anyway. And the reason is just that. What we know how to right and you know what else are we going to do? And so what we? Worked on with the mathematician. was really trying to figure out a way instead of like going up from the little bits and trying to build a big structure. How to actually come from top down. Instead of start like in very broad sketches and then. step-by-step refine the picture sort of like you would like if you were making like a piece of artwork or something. or it no back in the day like I'm GonNa really the date myself here with age. But when you had a modem and you were downloading and image on the Internet and sometimes it'd be the images come in line by line right? But. Then sometimes, there would images that would come out like for the. Blurry. And then the blurry nece would resolve. Block Eunice and then the block genus would resolve into sort of lake. Sort of a rough blur, and then it would sort of come into the full resolution image and it come into these stages. and. So the approach we took with Einstein's equations was exactly like that second way of storing an image. And so. We sort of build the calculation in layers and each layer we make a further refinement on the previous layers. And We found a way to do this that allows us to sort of. Incorporate very, very strong sources in a way that's agnostic to the fine details of the source. And when we did that the first step of the first layer would it's just a a uniform color. It's not just black some uniform color that I layer. We found that the the ultra the strong sources. Are are effectively sneered out. Didn't the dynamics, the behavior of the universe you expect in that coarsest most average sense. Really. Does require a smeared out version of all the sources that you have present. and. That's a really weird thing to consider. Because if you have something like a gas. And you think the bunch and you're thinking about Adams Adams in gas and say it's in a bottle and these are bouncing around. The the gas inside the bottle has a pressure because those I don't smacking into the the container and they're pressing out on it right and so that's your notion of pressure and so you'd think that if you had a universe, it was full of a bunch of you know. Tiny objects, call them jobs. And and they're not smacking into each other and they're not smacking into anything else than how could a large collection of these things sort of have pressure Not Bouncing off of each other, not a balancing of anything else so. Why why should whatever's going on inside the code? Influence what's going on outside the code? and. So people people sort of thought that that was the case. Oh sort of agreed with this common intuition where you have like the sort of what I would call the kinetic theory. Sort of conception of pressure. On. But that's not what you get when you do this sort of a layered approach to Arnstein quesions. You get that the behavior of the zero layer is complete average cuts right through everything it sees everything. and. So you pick up the pressures that are inside the G.. Odes? And when you do that things get wild. How doing you guys with me I I've been telling this story. Wild. Okay. We should definitely take a question break though. So please just sort of share with me where you're at what you're thinking. Before we go to the next step. Yes. So these you've got these sources and the roads, right? These things that are there out there. We're not. They're not pushing against each other according to this kinetic theory right now that you've done the math differently looking at Einstein's theory now you're going no no, no, they are. Each other they are doing something they're in. This stuff around them? Yeah. Yeah. That's right. That's how. Ahead you sounded like referees. Before before how and the why? Before before I was? Earlier about how gravity we don't have a mechanism exactly for we we can. We can calculate how it operates threats university, but we don't know exactly what a gravity stuff it's. We don't know what the communication is. Okay let's take it. So. We don't necessarily. I don't necessarily need to know what's the mechanics that that Y. Is a thing. But do we know as we do with gravity? Can We? We can see it's it's affects and how it is a reaching beyond having affects the further than its its locality. So you said you WANNA. Okay. So you'd like to move to the observational stuff. or You would you like to talk? I need a little observational. Well Yeah. So I mean the first thing that I would I would say on the first thing that drops out of the wash is that if you form a bunch of these gop objects around when the universe was may be eight, hundred, million years old You get you get what's called. A cosmo looks like a cosmological constant that has the right value. So, instead of just having to add some numbered Einstein's equations if this is the end stage of stellar collapse, if it doesn't form a black hole, but it instead form Cs meaux material objects then. You. Just automatically expect a cosmological constant. It's not like a weird thing happens. Now it's not exactly constant. There's some time variation and if your observations or precise enough, you can tease out that time variation maybe shows up at about the one percent point one percent level of this experiment called daisy a dark energy spectroscopy instrument. It is going to be able to look back pretty far And they sort of. Galaxies in the sky and get very precise data is to how fast they're going away from us. And they might be able to sniff the little effect that you would expect to see if he were sort of forming agios instead of forming black holes. So That's one example of sort of how you just get you get up the best fit model to sort of automatically when you have these things around and get it's you can distinguish it from the best fit model presently all by more precise measurements. How do you feel about that? Does that mean that there's a there's a time point Chretien universe where it went from Gio formation to black hole formation or is it are they still completely shepherd phenomenon known as you could be so so the? Yeah so you could you could. Yeah, you don't. So what we're trying to, what is the position that I take right in? It's it's maybe a position that I shouldn't take with physician I take is it you don't need black holes. They have all sorts of theoretical problems and if you just replace them with these sort of dark energy objects. You just sort of start fixing other things that weren't making much sense before. And but but if I'M GONNA be a if I'm GonNa be a straight science which should being on than than they can coexist. There's no reason to have one of the other and you have to you have to apply like an Arkansas Razor argument to shave off the black holes. Blair Catholic Yeah. So I'm trying to synthesize. This is crazy. So I think I guess we're I'm getting stuck is. Does this change what we know or does this change how we know what we know? About the universe. That's a pretty profound question. So. I guess. So let me just take a take a step back on. I would say that this increases our confidence that Einstein's equations are very, very, very good. Description of whatever's going on. On. Because from the conclusion that we've conclusions that we've drawn a working within Einstein's framework, is that When you start crossing t's and dotting some is. you start explaining these phenomenon that had been unexplained for a little while. and. So that tells you the currently accepted theory of what's going on for gravity. Is better than you thought it was like much better than you thought it was and so Einstein's got another home run. Yeah and so that's the I guess the to your question. Yeah. So it's kind of filling in these these question marks in the equations that we were trying to use to explain things that we knew about the universe, right so for instance, Swick, the dark energy you could, you can add that I keep saying and maybe I should have said it earlier I'm sorry you can model that you can take on sense equations you. Can stick a constant in their basically a constant time something called the metric. You put basically the constant term in there and it's permitted you can do it. It doesn't break anything of it seems to Ad Hawk like you just pull it out of somewhere on and so a lot of people that had issue with that like they didn't think it was pretty but other people were like we don't give any don't care about. Whether. It's pretty or not. If it's the data, it's the simplest model and we're going to go with it right And so now you don't need to put that number in there right. You can just instead of forming black holes which have problems of their own with this sort of one way edges and the singularity is that are on the inside. If you just get rid of that idea and you instead replace it with these dark energy objects, then you've solved those problems with one way layers and you saw those problems with information paradoxes and he sold his problems as singularities and you also get this this cosmological constant number for free. So I would say that I would say that that what we've worked on shows that again, Einstein's equations are are even better than we thought like much better on but I think it also shows that we have a long way to go for. Really Understanding or capturing the essence of what what they're telling us. How is that? So this this idea. Originally, you know fifty sixty years ago was saying it was kind of. Not, looked at for a long time. have their genes are out there but not really looked at in the way that you've looked at them. with your collaborators until now, how is the astrophysics community responding to your ideas? That's a great question. I'll be going to respond to this one. And you know people like scientists who are pretty conservative group, right? Berry, you really have to come correct said you can't just like dropping I like I said that first paper I pushed back in two thousand sixteen and they just threw it back. This is cool but come on do something. You know that's really the sentiment and so the impetus when you've got a new. Way. Of approaching. An old problem is on you you really have to to make the convincing argument that people should pay attention to it, and it's a slow process first off because you know when you first come up with an idea and you make some connections. You don't have the fully clearest picture of of what's going on like you can be. Sort of like the way we actually built a model you don't see. Sort of how you don't see all the puzzle pieces in their precision. Puzzle. You realize you're looking at a puzzle and you're like, well, you start hunting for the border. Right, and then you start laying the border pieces out you find a corner pieces I get those corners in place. Then you start building the corners and eventually you have a border in place. Once he got the border in place, you can start working your way in. On, and so that's it's really sort of how the the research grows organically off from the sort of initial idea to realizing like, okay. It's going to have these implications in moving on from that. So, I can tell you that I had the fortune of having one of these sort of really prominent cosmology people just sort of down the hallway offer me as guys named Nick Heiser and he's no longer here at a Hawaii. He's moved over to France I. I don't WanNa. Say the name wrong because I don't speak French. Well, it's Ns is the abbreviation. And A. One of the most interesting things about working with a guy like that is that. Even. If he doesn't agree with what you're saying. He can see all of the consequences of the idea very rapidly. And so I had this very heated dynamical like exciting exchange with him where I'd be like. Well, what about this and he's like? I mean I bet you could get the right cosmological constant if you made a bunch of these things but that's crazy. You Know Soda and we'd interest back here. It'd be like. Well, why is it crazy and he has some reasons and I'd take. Okay. Thank you. You go and sit and think about his reasons and do I agree with these reasons like is it is it making sense to me? Your does not make sense to me or do I know and sort of you continue this sort of flake almost adversarial but professional interaction with his with this person and essentially useless of leg you knock off the the broken parts in your left with the stuff that works. And I still think to this day nick is he does not like what we're doing. Three years ago it's a lot tighter. That's I mean that kind of real the yeah. That kind of relationship can really help your ideas really really hone them fine tune them, and like you said, make them better over time. So we've got the the roads we're. We know that they're acting on. Things there on each other on the stuff around them so the papers, all three of them they've. Now you've now said that they in your models they support the idea of expansion that they work in the way that we see the universe expanding. And so the thing there was so great. You got you basically that accounting game at that first level of the calculation you to county game smeared everything out and said, Hey, can we get the right number? And you can pretty easily it's very flexible, which is a nice thing to have But if you sort of that's not the universe, we of course, live in we live in a universe where there's not everything is identical everywhere their stuff. it's distributed very unevenly. And so the thought was that well. If you have a bunch of these, very old jobs are just by virtue of what do they get much heavier. Since from when they're born to say the press day. And if you had a bunch of these things and they're pretty heavy. Excuse me. and. They moved around like matter does. You'd have a bunch of them hanging around galaxies. And that would destroy galaxies 'cause they're huge and they're like ten, ten, ten to five. So I guess one, hundred, thousand sons ish. That's pretty heavy thing. So we've got about a bunch of things going on our own Milky Way galaxy that are older tend to the four. So ten, thousand, her hundred thousand. Ten, thousand ten, thousand, ten, thousand, and. Ten thousand while solar masses and So they usually called Dwarf galaxies. To gotTA think around a hope I don't get the number on maybe one, hundred, twenty, eight of them something like that. So there's this little like collection of. Little, tiny galaxies going around arms. But you definitely couldn't have. A population of one thousand. Hundred thousand solar mass objects that would start causing trouble. and. So it was very important that if this idea was going to be a viable explanation for this number that you, you find the ninestones equations when you look at the largest scales. That these things are not hanging around galaxies too much. And to answer that question we had to take we had to take the zero the first level calculation use that as an input for the first level calculation. Zero Zero, and then era I. We had to input that into the first, and then we had to see, okay what's going to happen if we start with a very old universe when everything is still very hot and everything still just slide out and Colin down and nothing's really clumping together yet. Where did the GEOS end up? and. So that's the question we answered the third paper. And it turns out that they It. Their spin matters. and. So if they're spitting very slowly they clump faster than matter, they claim faster than black holes. And you can understand this idea that on. In terms of the GIO, themselves said they get heavier as they get older. And so they get is that from matter accretion. The heavy intrinsically. And, it's the same phenomenon that when you see light from a very distant galaxy and it's redder. That enter that energy that's in the light is not because the galaxy has a relative motion to you in any sort of the doppler sense of fact. It's actually a common misconception. You can rick and run the math and see that has nothing to do with the Doppler shift. What that is is just the light losing energy because it's it's inhabiting. What's called a a Friedmann cosmology. It's not flat space. It's sort of a space that's filtered stuff everywhere and the sort of. End Effect of there being stuff everywhere is that stuff sort of? A. Better Word trains you or sort of saps you in some way. And so for. My POW I'm getting heavier over time I am. So. That's not that's not the the right. It's not the radiation. Yeah, and you gotta be careful because there's sort of this old notion was called tired light in cosmology and that's not the same phenomenon. As the the the well understood Photon redshift, which is what I'm talking about now. So jobs instead of losing energy. By virtue of their nature. So light loses energy by virtue of its nature. Gio Gain energy virtue of their nature. And so they gain energy pretty quickly. But geos are not light localize things and so when they gain energy gain mass. So. They could have. and. So if you have sort of two objects to jobs or to say things that are not in the rotating each other. As the universe is getting older and older, these things are staying the same weight, same mass and so. They're orbit is not changing. But if you have to objects that are getting heavier. As the universe is getting older, their mutual gravity is going to increase. And so they're going to spiral into each other. And in this sense, they collapse faster than than regular matter does. And so we actually sort of characterize this effect in the second paper. But. We didn't sort of consider the effects of spend. We didn't know how to do that at that time. On we only sort of considered what would be called sorry will be called the newtonian limit. But when we did the third paper, then we had to sort of considered objects in more generality. And it turns out that if they're not spinning they the clump real fast in that same way and that becomes problematic. But if you're spinning. Is a threshold spin and they start to repel each other. And Lucky for us, it's expected that when matter does fall onto things like black holes. They. Spin up because each little bit of matter also contains a little bit of spin with it. When that falls under the black hole it becomes integrated into the black hole members said, there's three numbers that characterize a black hole mass charge and spin. And you pick up the spin and where's IT GONNA go is GonNa make the whole thing go faster if you're pulling tons and tons of matter, you're getting lots of spin. and. So you can show that these things respected to spin up pretty quickly. And so. In that sense we were able to make an argument that was at least good enough to pass the referee process at the astrophysical journal. That that that they would spin up and they would undergo this propulsion effect and so most of them would not year round galaxies. In fact, most of them would be. Distributed uniformly. But since most of space is these void regions, most of them are influence. which we can't see anyway. So yeah the dark into the dark dark. Yeah. An object it's about ten to the five masses if it's almost the size of a black hole is one fourth radius of the Sun. And it's completely dirk. So they're really hard to see, but there are signatures that you can't pick on. Okay. Lensing are is they're going to be testing? Can we test this? That is the absolutely right, and that's that's actually what's most useful about the jeered scenario is you can excluded and tons of ways. It has signatures everywhere across so many scales from the scale of. Compact coalescing binary systems to scale of galaxies you can count how many things might be around to the scales, clusters of galaxies into the scale of cosmological distance. So. From. A got two questions. One was from Justin rate, and then was also from from. Yuki. So well, which just remind me your question or. Adding the tiny so it'd be hard to spot one, but so you ask the lensing. So. I. Don't think the number densities and an expert and gravitational lensing. I don't think the number density decision for you to to get sort of a strong lending signal like to see something like a blip I don't think there's enough of that on and because they're uniformly distributed. Issue think you'd be seeing any. A week lensing signature either. That sort of this. I don't know if you know what we cleansing is when you? You look at the you'll get some region of space and you look at the background field of galaxy that are further away than the region that you're sort of interrogating. And you look for subtle distortions in the orientations of the way those galaxies are you'd think that normally if you're looking at region and there were so no shenanigans happening in between me and what I'm seeing that all of the galaxies would sort of be randomly arranged ray maybe they're ellipses and they're sort of randomly rotated ellipses and there's no sort of preference anywhere. and. So you start with that assumption and then you look at some region of space and you say a Ha. I see all these galaxies have stretched and squished and rotated. Sort of suddenly begin between something in between us. Yes. Is Sort of subtly affecting the background field and if you can look at enough these background field galaxies, you can reconstruct sort of what is sitting in between you and the background field. And so that's called weak gravitational lensing, and if you have these things that are distributed new formerly though then you're not really going to have any preferential shears or deformations in one region or another region, and so I think the week lensing single would be small. Actually, this nick. Kaiser Guy that I mentioned before is bread and butter. His is weak lensing. So you might have some things to say about that but I think. In terms of other tests though I mean. So you could. You could. Test light traveling through void regions of space see how weak lensing occurs whether or not it does you could is there is there other triangulation? Are there other ways that it? Would you just said actually if you say look through light passing through voids and if you just don't say the lensing part, you actually identified exactly the other way to look for these things. And that's something called the Integrated Sachs. Wolfe effect. Is W effective short. And so what happens there is that the usual way that it's described is you have a Light. Sort of comes into a galaxy cluster something very heavy. And that light is coming into the cluster. It picks up energy from gravitation, and so it becomes bluer. And then as it leaves the galaxy cluster, it loses energy and it becomes redder again. And usually you would expect this effect to balance. So the amount of energy you picked up coming in is going to be equal to the metallurgy lose going out. So you don't expect an S. W. Signal. But depending on how the universe is growing if the universe is growing very quickly like an accelerated expansion. Then sort of the. Cluster itself is thought to get stretched. With the expansion a little bit. Ruined and so the light coming in. Picks up energy? But as it's leaving things stretched a little bit too much and so it doesn't loses much energy on the way out. And so you expect that the light gets a a slight blue shift. It gets a little more energetic. And people have looked for this effect and they found it on. So you can look in clusters and you can like us delight from the cosmic microwave background as sort of the back light, and you can look for the imprint of structure on the cause of microwave background, and you can look for these subtle shifts hotter and colder. So you get the hotter ones when you have material. Likewise if you have very empty region, the same thing happens in reverse and you get a colder. Colder photon coming up. and. So it turns out that The jobs. Add a new contribution to the is w effect. Something called Tropic stress. And don't ask me where that word comes from or what it means. CASSIE. What it means I don't know where it comes from. It's just to me. It's very sort of confusing word. It's a sort of characterization if the notion of things wanting to shear. So that's. Stretching, squishing defamation. And so it's out of source of this type of. Stress. And that changes the highest W signal. and. So in the process of writing paper three, we did the did a bunch of the simulations in have the results. And we still analyze them to compute the w effect to see. Is it visible. Is it a large one It could be too large could break people have measuring this right and so we have to we have to figure that out, make the measurement and see if it's consistent with the data that we have already. Great. So you you've got you've you're working on the model you've already got observational data, your correlating things with and so it's a matter now. Just going through. All of the possible places you can look. where, where does where do the codes? What. What assumptions do you make and what predictions can you make, and then how does that lineup with your data brand? New from these these. Repairs in the Milky Way did they couldn't be hanging around galaxies and so we had to get them away from galaxies. So it turns out that they like to get away from galaxies on their own. So that's good. If you're worried about binary star pairs and galaxies, but now they're sitting voids. And so now we gotta make sure that the data from the void still make sense. So that's that's next on the list. All right. I mean, that's that's exciting. It's really. It's it's got to feel I mean. How does it feel? You've got this new idea this thing I mean it's not new news. Really. It's me on this? No. No it doesn't actually. You feel like you're at the beginning of journey or is this Honestly, if I were to be honest, it feels terrifying. That's really what it feels like because. Like I said, the community is a very conservative community if you really want to get people to pay attention because to to to really investigate an idea to consider whether or not someone's works. Someone's analysis is correct, right? It's very technical stuff. It takes a lot of time you have to be like I. Care About this enough to really dedicate two three four hours a day maybe for a couple of weeks to get your head into the right space to be able to understand. Okay. What were they doing? Why did they go about doing this and do I do I agree with their methods to I agree with your conclusions? And that's really hard work and people are very busy. So, there's a really really high bar in order to to to get people to pay attention. And so I think it's just a very slow process, and so we're doing the best that we can to make connections with observations on many different scales that already exists to make predictions for upcoming experiments. And I. Think it's just a matter of time. It's a new idea and people I think will be uncomfortable with a while. But. If enough people begin to sort of noticed it, hey, it keeps working i. think eventually it will sort of draw the necessary sort of harsh critical attention that it really needs to. to take it to the next level right you really need people that are gonNA come around and be like, I hate this. They come at it right and then they they give you all that they got, and then you know if it survives then it's like thirty six hours right? You GotTa start at Chamber. One and you gotta get to chamber to and. Chamber thirty, five I because they're just gonNA push out the door don't don't go too far ahead of yourself but I think you're already you're already beyond just a theoretical analysis. This is actually this is actually getting into experimental. I mean, you're doing observational experiments, but this is experimental. And Yeah I think it's one of the I mean I'm Gonna I'm GonNa, get shot out here to my department here in why is that? I had the fortune of sort of coming of age in an extremely observational, extremely experimental community. So we have the the the observational astro community up at the institute for Astronomy and we've got a bunch of people that work on particle physics experiments here in physics and astronomy. and. So whenever I would interact with my my mentors here the question was always, what are the predictions? How do we measure this? I wasn't. Allowed to get lost in theory land I always was being pulled back and be like alright. It's going to do this or it's GonNa. Do this I'm going to sit here and that was the really the way to sort of. Make progress with people to connect to the data. Off so that sort of the approach that I think we've taken from the from the very beginning was all right. How do we best connect with the data and because this idea is wild the consequences are wild working entirely with an Einstein framework and people are going to have a pretty difficult time with this unless we can really show that it pays dividends. And so that's why we've we've taken the that we have I got I, don't know why I got this this funny image of what you've just described as as as a small bird continuously being pushed out of the nest. Usually hitting then having come back into the lab. Time. An Athlete after describes the graduate student billions. You're trying to fly on your own and you really you really not strong enough yet. That's but but it says it sounds like they're. Having that focus of of it's not just a a a nice idea that you can work on in the sandbox but being being pushed up against actual observation experimental minded people must've accelerated. Your appreciation for the ideas well. A yeah. So I mean there is a lot like I said, there was a lot of honesty a lot of fear very leg like this like that I came at the problem it. It seemed to me to be sort of clear that there was only one way forward. But that was not at all what anyone else was doing as I'm like crazy like like, why isn't it? What isn't anyone else seemed to see this early? Why isn't anyone approach the problem in this way? And usually when I when that happens to me, it's because I'm wrong. Usually when that happens to also because I'm wrong, right So. Great. So this This was still going. Ongoing it's very, it's. It's really an. Interesting concept and I think it's An interesting one to talk about because it. Really. Gives a new a new spin on black holes and. Blair approved to that way. The ground. From the from the stage when it comes from the stage. Twenty. Nine Times right. approval. Thank you so much for sharing all of this information with US joining US tonight. This is just been very generous with your time. Thank you. Listen to me ramble forever. Awesome. We have your, we have a link to your web page at the University of Hawaii, and we can also link to the geodetic wikipedia entry. So maybe in our website to send people, you'd better your if we link your podcast or we link this livestream is just like. What or did you just click it? It'll take you to this. Conversation is conversation was you'll be Rick cursive. Drive the click traffic. Like it I like this idea. Of. Birch. It's dark nobody can actually. It's their trusted. The boxers nothing no. From It, I can send you paper. The hat is really heavy. It's just it's really heavy and it tries to push you away. All right everybody we have come to the end of our interview. Dr Croker. Thank you so much for joining us. We are going to. Your welcome. We are going to continue on to some more science stories. Alright. Thank you. This is this week in science. Thank you for listening. We are really glad that you're here with us. We hope that you learned something in that interview I. Know I did. We try to bring you interesting interviews and conversation around science stories. Every single week right down to Earth up-to-date views credible reliable. Saying. Really try to do but. It's all because of you that were able to do it. So if you are able head over to twist dot Org Click on the patron link and choose your level of support. To help us keep bringing this science sanity to the world. Into more people. It's all because of you. We really can't do this without you. Thank you for your support. And we're back with more this weekend science and you know that interview we went on and on and on about the astrophysics show I. Think it's time. For some Blair's animal coroner. Danger. Dom. Would accept. Giant. What you didn't. Here So I have a couple of kind of silly but funds stories that actually have some good implementation's to the greater scientific world this duke. University they love their primates and this is looking at male babboons actually thirty five years of data looking at more than five hundred, forty babboons over those thirty five years in a national park in Kenya. Looking at. Platonic relationships. So relationships between males and females that are not related to copulation or reproduction. because. There's been lots of studies done about family groups about definitely female female relationships, male male ruffled relationships. But when when we think about males being friendly with females you tend to assume as. A. Biologist would assume that it has to do with reproductive perks at some white. Even if you're not currently getting any of those perks, perhaps you're hoping you will at some point. Maybe. That's happening because they're related in some way to offspring so they're helping protect or maybe a that by. Giving a kind of social behavior friendly behavior. There's a hope that at some point down the line. Maybe you'll get a shot. But then at the same time, we also know from studies with humans. That humans who have close friends. Strength chips are more likely to live longer than those who've dealt. And Human Studies also show that making keeping friends can be as important from long jetty as losing weight or getting exercise. So we have these two kind of very different ways of looking at the world. Perhaps, no coincidence that one is looking at non human primates in one is looking at human primates and their their. You know we we're kind of want to separate from. It's all about sex thing. Can Be reds who the guy. But then we're looking at the baboots. We don't want to believe that for some reason I think is very maybe it's a subconscious thing anyway But finally it there's there's been these patterns of opposite sex friendship that has been seen all over the in Wokingham, but especially a lot in mammals. And they used to techniques to look at mortality risk at each age. and to see if there was links between survival and friendship. And if those were the same for males and females. They. Do, spend a lot of time together grooming, which is usually how you look at social behavior in primates. That's how they bond. So they relieve stress and that they help each other with hygiene there's this push poll I help you remove those bugs you help me remove by bucks right. Males don't spend very much time grooming. Each other makes sense. They're probably rivals. They don't want to help each other, but they do groom with females even ones. Who are not currently fertile? Who are currently with a child from a different? Individual so they they do it not just right when it might result in sex. So they looked at two, hundred, seventy, seven males, two, hundred, sixty, five females they looked at the strength of the bonds in their inner circle basically just by the time grooming each other. They found that both sexes have benefit from strong social ties. And they the males specifically live longer lives if they're socially connected. And that males that maintain strong female friendships were twenty eight percent more likely to make it to their next birthday. Than ones that were socially isolated, very dramatic way of putting it but Yeah. So it has a very, it's a strong indicator. So of course, more week, work needs to be done to look at how those links have is it causal is correlated. and. Then if it is causal how bonds specifically affect physiology in lengthen license is there a physiological change? Is it all hormonal or mental though these are all? in. So this is bring it way back saying that it does seem like friendship has evolutionary roots very far down definitely in the primate family tree probably in the Mammalian family tree. I? Bet You could go further but yeah, it's in. I immediately think stress. That an animal group that's not a solitary one is it's stress heartless stress hormones will be reduced if they are having physical contact with other individuals whether or not they're getting reproduction out of it and I would imagine it also helps strengthen the bonds within the social group as a whole you know. So they've got their local their little band of babboons. You know that that they're troop that they rely on and. If you are involved in a mutual grooming relationship, a friendship with other individuals you're going to be able to rely on those individuals. Is there a food shortage is something dangerous? Is something happened there is that under current of troop trust that I think like that and that also goes back to stress. It probably would reduce stress. It maintains those bonds and I would I would imagine it probably allows everyone to be cool. Yeah and live together. Yeah. So. Yeah. Well, I know very violent. That's a stress based society. Asked, or not mutually groom when we're on Mars. Yeah, they should. mean it also. I was never a girly girl growing up I didn't really have any female friends and then I got to college ahead all these female friends and the first time I had a another girl braid, my hair or like with my hair. The thinking back on it as with the science hat on. It was it could only be just a rush of positive hormones just like a flood of dopamine or something I don't know but it was it feels really good and it just feels like you're being like taking care of space that you can't see I. Don't know it's. It's really hard for me to describe but it is what girls Brady shoulders air. There's a reason for that. I would guess it has something to do with this. But. I. Think about it from the babboons but also with humans especially in Cova times when Ron allowed to touch each other. I think. Something very similar to that With a significant other who basically pinned me down and clipped my nose here. I WANNA go I don't WanNa do stay still stay still this has to be done. Who? You. New. Okay Kurt. Good good good helping it sounded like. That was the right Emma anyway moving on from a reducing stress to fear. Pretty simple story just looking at. The Institute of Marine Biodiversity. Exploitation. `conservation looking at the impact of humans on how wild animals respond to predators? And sometimes, it takes a little bit of science being done to confirm what I'm sure. We all would have guessed, which is the more animals come into contact with humans. That could be through captivity domestication organization. They, stop avoiding predators, their babies like vigilance freezing and fleeing they all start to deteriorate. They analyzers ultra hundred and seventy three peer reviewed studies They looked at Anti Predator traits of both behavioral and physiological. They were looking at long term evolutionary changes as well in one hundred and two species. domestic. Captive an urbanized mammals, birds, reptiles, fish ball. So this is a pretty big swath of life that we're looking at here in terms of animals. They found that contact with human overall lead to a loss of anti Predator traits. Simultaneously. The variability between individuals. Increases and decreases in generations in contact with the human. So. Basically, the human comes in reduces presh- pressure from natural selection because they're kind of letting everybody survive. and. Then think about like dog breeds of them that are so their whole lives in the doctor's office because of traits that were allowed to continue that could have been a problem right So they reduced pressure. So that allows them to kind of radiate. In then After that then they they've kind of started to be selected for being docile or domesticated so. They had almost immediate changes in responses in the first generation after contact with humans. So the initial response is all behavioral and then genetic changes come later on of course. So. Herb, domesticated animals, they're anti Predator responses started to disappear three times faster than urbanize animals. So that makes sense you're talking about. A dog versus a pigeon. So. Definitely. Animals that live in your home are domesticated are cattle things like back at they are being selected for, and they are dependent on humans to survive. Urbanized animals are not being intentionally selected for by humans and they also use humans to help them survive but could survive without them. So it's kind of a different thing and then captivity actually had the slowest changes, which is great because that's where endangered species that are being bred to be released into the wild. So this is actually great news. Also herbivores apparently changed behavior more quickly than carnivores. And solitary species. Group loving animals. Yeah. So the the solitary versus group loving that should drive because group living animals have versions of themselves to gauge how they act. But if you take a solitary species and you bring them home, they think they are you. They don't have another version of them to. Compare to compare they think. Of whatever they're around so that would make sense So obviously like I don't do like cats think they are me though Right. But now nightmare. That they are humans in charge of your household yes. Exactly. Yeah, there's a hierarchy, but they thing you're all the same species. The so obviously, any Predator behaviors can be a huge problem. is they don't run away get eaten. And so there's a lot of implications for conservation Captive breeding programs like I mentioned livestock management. So this is an important study because I think the first thing that I took away was what I said like great. Awesome. Captive breeding is the. Is the lowest impact. So let's just keep trying to reduce as much of that impact as we can if trying to capture breed animals for later release into the wild, that's excellent. But this also a reminder I brought this because a few weeks ago someone had asked about feeding wild animals on your porch. That is exactly what we're talking about here with urbanized animals. So if you get them used to humans than they might get eaten. Is Yes. It really is that you want them to be a wild animal do wild animal things because that attributes to more than just their diet it attributed to how they're gonNA react if they see a coyote or mountain line so. It it's part of the overall survival of these animals is making sure that the only ones getting this intense. Specified selected contact by humans are species that we intend to live with us forever hence domesticated species fact. Though. Cool. This is it's interesting. I want to ask. I'm to ask you real quick question which one. Got The Predator response. Reduced quicker. was A it was a carnivore versus vegetarian. Urban Voice did over force yeah reduced faster. Okay. Okay their guard down. Which? Is Interesting. because. You. Made me. Think of it. Made me think of sharks being terrified when there's a present. Because I think if you are if you are a predator. You know another Predator must be terrifying 'cause it's not you're not. Maybe it's not your normal mode of approaching the world you're looking at the world like it's your food. Whereas if your inner before you know other animals might seem more like they're looking at, you like your food. So. There's another piece that don't just throw out there, and it's something that animal lovers don't often like to talk about but a lot of carnivores eat their own. Yep so I think that's part of it too is if you have. No matter how much humans are taking care? If you're a polar bear. You still have to watch out about being eaten by other. Birds. I think that's kind of like the the big secret about those charismatic Nevada. Belly. You each other each other because meat is meat. Yep. That's. An interesting thought. Fascinating. Justin did you have any stories? Oh. Yeah actually. Somewhere a okay. Yeah. This is from four Stewart who is associate professor of Sociology in Stanford School of Humanities and Sciences. He worked with some researchers at. University of Chicago. Katie Whiten Shannon Morrissey they were looking at how Chicago news organizations cover homicide. In the print. and. They focused on Chicago in twenty sixteen, which is one of the deadliest ears and the nation's third largest city. They had seven hundred, sixty, two people who were homicide. Murdered. Not Fun fact. Chicago has a serious homicide. Problem. In sort of like looking at some of the the sources of where this data was collected. It's pretty grim. But that's just the not fun fact. So this study was just published in the Journal sociology racing ethnicity would they basically did was they looked at? How people are written up after they have died after they have been murdered in the little blurbs. Of the local newspapers and they found a disparity? Were written up based on race so they. To here's the Disparities extended to the City's Hispanic Hispanic-majority neighborhoods and black majority neighborhoods versus the white majority neighborhoods Chicago sort of interesting place because it is a basically, it's a third. African American a third? Hispanic. In third cash you would think this would be a very sort of place that you would have this blended pool of being able to see. A sort of Maybe uniform approach however, despite the the the makeup of the city, it is still very segregated city there are. Vast majority of black vast majority. White neighborhoods is majority Hispanic neighborhoods as well. So despite its diversity Chicago remains a very segregated community. Basically, this was this was something that. Stewart had come back about because he had been looking at there was. A Jacob. Blake. As sister said something and Inter interesting and interview. When she said and when you say the name Jacob Lake. Make sure you say make sure you say cousin make sure you say son make sure you stay. In effort to humanize a not allow about attack to be a statistic. and. So he's sort of got interested in this and started looking into. How press covers these things That you can buy so. Quoting. According to air as a as a social scientist I thought, wouldn't it be even more powerful to quantify the value with different folks lives different racial identities and backgrounds in news coverage in hold those up next to each. Though this is how you came about focusing in than on Chicago at, which has a few databases that list everyone. Who would who has been? Murdered inner city and has a couple of places where they actually have been linked to where this has been reported in the news. They examined two, thousand, two, hundred and forty five news articles about homicide victims. They looked at how much coverage each person received considering factors like word count and which articles recognized. Someone is more than a name victim. But as a complex, mostly dimensional human being mentioning family immunity connections there were articles some which were they did interviews with other people in that person's life. They cross references also with Chicago Police Department public records there now insist determined that about thirty five percent of murder victims in majority white neighborhoods or likely to be covered as a complex person. that is double the amount and majority black neighborhoods which seventeen percent and Hispanic neighborhoods, which was eighteen percent homicide victims and majority. White neighborhoods received about four hundred, fifty words more of text on average than those killed a majority black neighborhoods researchers found that black victims names or sometimes misspelled had transposed letters in the news reports. Even just reading the news articles. MORRISSEY WHOSE OUT OF CHICAGO Even just reading the news articles there was a palpable difference in the way victims and neighborhoods were talked about this paper does well to remind us that the disparities aren't neighborhood and community level. So they differentiated between articles that simply listed the victim in weekend review of homicides and more nuanced articles that tried to capture an individual's lattes. There were other articles especially about victims for majority white neighborhoods where the reporters were doing interviews with family members and friends, teachers, coaches, all sorts of people in the victim's life. And they were providing quotes said White. Whose University of Chicago, they talked about the victim in a very different way like this complex person who has value and who's being missed by the community family members and friends. So. Stewart. The end saying here, raise isn't just your. Typical coloring races, a series of historic economic, symbolic, importantly geographical set of power relations where some people are stigmatized and rendered powerless or less powerful. These are systems of domination. So even you know when when, when we have had these conversations about what is a systematic racism what is what is an institutional racism looks like? Here's a pretty good example. The just the way that the community is reporting on the victims of homicide had. Eight of racial bias to it has a huge bias and I think there are many examples there've been people. Within media who have often said, make sure you look at the verbs at that how how the headlines of stories are even worded because the way that they're either passive or active voice the headlines are worded in a way that make you immediately emotionally jumped to a certain conclusion and then like all these bits of evidence that you've brought in through this story, it's yeah it's part of that systemic disenfranchisement telling a different story. Yeah there was a really interesting article actually from NPR back in June. About how black victims are usually called unarmed black men specifically. The phrase which it actually has implied by saying that. Young black men are expected to be armed and dangerous, and so there there's actually a something that NPR wasn't even aware of they had to be educated and they enter released this article and say that they were going to change the way that they did this because if a victim is white, they're not on our our white person. Yeah. So it's yeah there's definitely something there that sometimes it's so baked in that even trying to be just the most impartial inclusive you it's still there. Yeah. No, that's a fascinating when the Dow never occurred to me but yeah, unarmed black man we've heard this phraseology over many times assured a lot of these. These these reports? You don't hear about the. Like Oh, they're actually indicating that they. was. And, this series go by that was an innocent black man because they were not armed as as I. Would have been then it would have been acceptable. Right or location that that is somehow an outlier from the expectation. Right yeah totals. Are Words matter and I think the point with this particular study's really interesting that Chicago you would you would think since it is fairly Easily divided. Usually immigrated. Integrated. That's that's the big. Kicker kind of there but. In the. Past Anchorage. Yeah. This one of journalism which is supposed to be impartial supposed to be in that active voice. Telling the stories of the community when when you have this system that is designed to be unbiased in its rare recounting. Of Events and things taking place, and then you find that layer of bias. POW Publi in the words the researchers obviously. That's that's like the definition of an institutional. Racism or bias that that that the journalists doing this. It's not like they're like, Oh, I'm going to intentionally specifically. Referred to the this person be at the way they died because of their race differently than I it's it's that that hidden bias that is worse in a way because that rate continues without even the person offering it necessarily recognizing that it's taking place. So hopefully. Now, now this has been done in one city. It doesn't mean that Chicago is an outlier. Yeah. If it were to be analyzed across the United States, we would find it everywhere. This? Story get some traction within the. Community. So, that they start to pay attention to the way bias effects, their reporting of. This is this week in science if you like this show. Help us grow our audience telephone to subscribe today. I have a couple of stories before we finish our our here. Let's talk about brains. Brains and how they develop. Yes shall we go there? Yes. Yes. Yes. Let's talk about how brains develop new. Have a baby think Oh, you don't starts out as a little ball of cells that blast assist in the blast assist then has all these cell type that has its genomic map to be able to turn into all the different cell types that the body needs some there's gassed relation body gets gotten then it starts dividing and Oh, look there's like a little head area and a tail area and there's little limbs forming and. Well the shape of the body is taking. SHAPE. There are cells for the different tissues that are taking shape as well. Neurons start to grow that start connecting different parts of the body, the brain to the gut, the brain starts to form. Governed talk about the things that? Mothers eat while they are pregnant. Effecting the development of the offspring we often talk about even the things that mothers have put in their bodies leading up to the pregnancy. They drinker where they are smoker. Do they have enough full like acid? All these things that can that we know can potentially affect. That young baby well, questions have arisen as to whether or not. Microbes have any impact into that brain development. And you might think wait a minute is microbes what because okay. We know there's the placental barrier right? There's the placenta it mingles the MOMS blood's blood supply with the babies but it's a barrier kind of like the blood brain barrier in its supposed to kind of let nutrients pass through but it's very specialized organ to support the growth of the baby. So. It's the nutrients come from the blood of the mother to feed the developing embryo. How good the? Microbes be involved. Why would they be involved? Well, some researchers just published a paper in nature this week reporting that when they took microbes away from pregnant mice started out with germ free mice, no microbes or mice, they gave antibiotics to. The offspring of those. Mothers. The brains did not. Develop in the same way as. The mothers that had a normal microbial population. Didn't did not develop the same way. So they had. They had behavioral abnormalities they responded to Stimuli scary stimuli differently, and they also saw that the. Exxon's the actual parts of the neurons that connect the neurons from one place to another. There were smaller they were shorter they were stunted. They were not growing to the extent that they should have. They didn't group in X. Zonal Bundles, the way that they should have and. In these groupings it's called the internal capsule in the brain of mice in which they did. These studies were thinner. than. Embryos for mothers that had a normal microbiome. Lots of genes that were expressed were different as well. So some of the genes wore genes responsible for external development. When they put bacteria back in the probiotics, they were able to offset these neuro developmental abnormalities on. Yeah so they did a bunch of they did a bunch of. Different tests to find out exactly how this was working but. The evidence that they have that they have amassed. In the large parts suggests that there's something. About metabolite molecules that get produced by the got microbiome and that end up in the bloodstream. So it's not like microbes themselves are going into. The babies to change their brain development but there is a change to molecules that are important to nutrition. And those molecules than are also important to the development of a fetus. So, so it's the microbes is this is just It just basically gun with without the right microbes. The mother doesn't get the nutrition that can be passed on to the kid and then. So in this case, these are like malnourished mothers giving birth. Because the mothers are adults and they're doing fine the mothers themselves. For All. I. Own. Hormones like it always does I always the one crying hormones is that like microbes effect hormones right? That was kind of my assumption is that the microbes are somehow impacting hormones that impact development. So the the the question is, how do they affect development? We don't know We know that there are what calling micro biota derived metabolites. So they, they are little bits of proteins. That end up in the bloodstream and they have effects and so whether those effects are to trigger hormones or to trigger. or or to you know what did at what did they trigger? What do they get involved with? We don't know necessarily. Just. Yeah But the specific area of the brain that they did find to be most highly affected in the mice was the the lamb critical sensory relay pathways particularly. In neurons that are involved in heat sound and pressure detection, and so it's a very while it's a broad effect on the brain. There is this particular area of the brain that microbial metabolites seemed to really have an effect on. So the question now is okay we've seen this in mice. What is the? How does how does this change? Does it change in humans it? What is the effect of maternal micro BIOTA 's? In human pregnancy. Up. Dr Justin's Donna Doctor Koop Hill for. Maybe Hey I was just gonNA suggest. The morning show headline is eating your while pregnant going to give you a smarter baby science says, yes. But more so more. So it's not is it going to give you a smarter baby? It's is it going to affect? Abnormalities. So will will we be able to track biomarkers metabolites in the blood of mothers? Can you have a little instead of an insulin stick or whatever can you have a little pinprick kind of thing or a saliva test that you do on a daily or weekly basis when you're pregnant to make sure that your levels of these biomarkers are fine and if the levels of these biomarkers are low than you know that you need to eat yogurt or whatever you know whatever the pro by you know whatever it is that's very cool. Yeah. Yeah. So there are there definitely directions this could go towards. Very beneficially affecting the developmental. Brain health. Babies. I think all the time about how there is a a period of time when. Modern medicine was throw antibiotics at it. And then we kind of discovered like maybe. But now I'm kind of picturing the opposite now where it's throwback to your yet. Yeah. But I'm on the other side of that Blair. While you're pregnant. If bag area have such a big effect on brain development. Antibiotics while you're pregnant. That is maybe maybe that's a last ditch kind of thing like you only do that when you really can't get rid of something. You know I mean what this implies is that the That bacterial populations are very important for fetal. Development? or at least if you're going to do in anybody will pregnant have a prebiotic backup plan for reading writing after? Yes. Your. Cult on your way out. Go to the Doctor Justin's not a real doctor Poo pills come and whatever else. That's right. Yeah. It's very, very exciting. Indefinitely going to push forward on more research surrounding this because it's so interesting my last story. Has To do with reality. And how we really really know what's Real There have you have you ever experienced kind of an out of body experience or a feeling of detachment from reality. there's a way. Reality. Fell for the things going on around you. There Dissociate of disorders are disorders that are common resulting from trauma or beauce. Ketamine is a drug that can lead to dissociation. DISSOCIATION can also occur in epilepsy, but it is dissociation is. It is a known affect that happens and we've never really known why it happens. We know that brain rhythms change. There's been a lot of work into areas but again. A new study in nature describes. A study that researchers. Did using a bunch of different drugs and looking at how the brains of mice responded to a bunch of different drugs. They looked at sedatives and aesthetics hallucinate who hallucinogenic drugs LSD they looked at ketamine and cycling dies Philippine drugs that induce dissociation on purpose. And they went digging around to see using a technique called Whitefield calcium imaging to look for changes in frequency rates in brain rhythms. So Howard how what was the pulsing rhythm of the activation of neurons and various areas of the brain And they found that all of the dissociate of drugs. Made Oscillations happen at about one, two, three hurts. So very low low frequency one, two three hurts in an area of the the mouse brain called the retro spleen you'll cortex. And this is an area that's involved in episodic memory being able to remember all the details of an event navigation is this. This is important for other cognitive also. And other drugs did not. So like LSD didn't trigger the retrospect lineal CORTEX no dissociation hallucination. Yes but not. The Retro Cortex was not activated so they were. Record Yourself. Like. Your air. You're right. They're still in reality. So these researchers looked at the cells. Using what's called two photon imaging and they found that the cells in the rhetoric spleen cortex. Were restricted to a really small area. Layer five of the retrospective cortex only the cells in this little layer layer five. and. They saw the the neural activity takes place Ketamine caused a disconnect from a number of different brain areas so that they didn't communicate with the CORTEX, the rhetoric lineal cortex anymore however. They wanted to know whether the retrospect lineal. Its own by itself could cause that disconnect. That disassociation that ketamine caused and so they used Opted up up up opted genetics what it is. Yes. Anyway. They used to these to protect proteins that are sensitive to light and rechannel redemption. They got one neurons. To respond to blue light another neuron to respond to yellow light blue light turned the neurons on yellow light turn them off, and so they alternated the neurons using light in this three hurts range. So they basically artificially pumped in blue and yellow light to the top of the mouse brain beep beep boop. BOOP turned it on and off and on and off and Low and behold, they actually caused the dissociated effect in. The brain of the mouse. They watched it happen. Then, they're like, this is not enough what about people can we need people and so they tried this in people's stimulating a similar area of the brain. We don't have the retrospect Lino cortex in in our brain but they were able to look at the deep post-euro medial cortex and in a person who has epilepsy and they were able they had a electrodes already implanted in their brains, and so they stimulated those electrodes and were able to cause dissociation in the person. Using the same frequency. So the person was awake because usually when they do these epilepsy experiments. A person you? The person's awake and responding to things, and so they could say, okay, we're going to turn on the the electricity. Now let us know if anything happens and then the person can say Whoa I. Feel like I'm having an out of body experience I feel really weird. It's other the the patient that they were able to experiment on in this three hurts rhythm. It worked. So. Yeah. So the question is now, can we induce dissociated states in people more broadly? Would we want to? Do that one of the questions about ketamine it's been found to have antidepressant affects and can be very helpful for other mental health reasons. And so without giving somebody a drug, could you actually stimulate these effects? Could you instead of having somebody go to? A a clinic and take the drug on a monthly basis which could be very difficult. Maybe implant electrodes kind of like a pacemaker. That would stimulate this effect on a regular basis and then have the antidepressant effects. This is just Hypothetical the other question though that I think is really interesting is why do we have an area of the brain that has evolved to associate our consciousness? Our physical body to like reality. Why do we have a part of the brain that if it does a certain activation we have dissociation is it because we have to survive you know we we see associative affects because of trauma and other. Is. It is this because we are survival based species has it evolved? White man white mice have something similar. Why do we as mammals have a part of the brain? For dissociation. I wonder if as the brain gets larger and you become more aware of what's going on around you and what is happening to you write your overall you're getting more intelligent, which helps you survive but also means that you're more susceptible to trauma. He's you're more aware. I think that's the the other way round. Wouldn't it be that? This means that there's a part of the brain that's required for us to even associated ourselves with ourselves like that's function. That's not the. Thing you had to have this workaround to socio things that are going on. There's an on switch. Switch it's my again. It's not built into. To make us disassociate. It's that's how we even associate with ourselves in the first place. That's what it's doing without it. Sort of observers interested being going on. To See. I'd love to see more studies kind of looking at the. The neuropsychiatric side of it kind of Oliver Sacks style of people who have had damage to that area of their brain, and how does that affect their ability to associate their body with their with themselves to associate their surroundings with themselves Yeah. I think that would I'd love to see that evidence. I'm convinced that the brain's main function is to take all these disparate parts of an organism and make them function together. The analogy often used. If your body didn't punish you, you wouldn't notice each. If you didn't you wouldn't get hungry if your brain be like, okay. Negative response if you have to overcome it by doing this, that's how controls otherwise absolutely stupid. What would be brainless entity into serve enforcing this thing to survive in the forcing is associated with ourselves is an important thing. To be successful and as fast as Fatah says in the chat room an extension of this is also potentially the ability to have any sort of abstract thought beyond the present moment. It's all very interesting and yeah is there is this part of the brain is that one part of the brain the thing that ties us to reality? Is it. And it doesn't necessarily have to be a real reality since ties to the reality that we assume the one that we're terrible reality that we produce in our head. We're at the end of the show. Thank you for sticking with us. This has been a wonderfully fun and long show and speaking of reality Yeah. Final thoughts for this show we don't have a question for the end of the show tonight. If you have a question for us, please send me an email Kirstin at this week in science dot Com or leave a message on facebook. But I just I just wanted to say that the world really does seem kind of crazy right now and It is it's out of control. There's a lot of stuff going on there is. It's you feel a I think chuck when Dick John Chuck Wendy put it really well in something he wrote this week, which is that you feel like. You see there's a toilet on fire in the middle of the living, and you just wonder if everybody else seems sees the same toilet on fire in the middle of the living room and you know I see that toilet on fire in the middle of the living room. I'm just telling you right now there's a big. The toilet is on fire in you're not alone if you see it too. So, just keep your wits about you. Stay curious and check your sources like Justin said at the beginning of the show, check your sources and I do hope that you continue to count on us as credible and reliable sources of information and also. Discusses, of Information, and that. But if you see or hear something that we say double check us because that's what we hope that you do. We hope that we inspire you to be more curious and to look into things. But. Thank you for spending your time with us. And for the next week. Stay safe. Social distance distance wear a mask, wash your hands. Make sure you registered to vote. And vote. Peres that's coming as well. Shot also. Loo Shot? Thank you for listening I. Do hope you enjoyed the show shadows Defatta for your help on this show with social media and show notes, Gord. Thank you for manning the chat room four. Thank you for recording the show and I'd like to thank. Our patriots sponsors and the burroughs wellcome. Fund for. Their generous support of this week in science. Thank you to Jonathan Stilo Don Stop Jonathan Styles Aka Don Stilo John Cheola Johm John Lee Alley coffin. Mattie Perrin Gaurav Sharma Designer Mike Shoemaker Sarah for Donald. Monday Gerald Sarah's Stephen. 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