S4E7: Gen Z in The Workplace
To either concerned. Supposed to what to do with their keep it pure free with Dr Chang seat. Only one major financial peers. Son yours has. With gagging done. Hello, young deadbeats. I'm Gabby done. And this is bad with money. Have you heard the good news? The economy is doing great unemployment is at an almost fifty year, low economists are calling it full employment economists known for their way with words. So I guess, all of my bitching, and moaning about economic Justice for the last three seasons was for nothing. Because it's all fixed the end. Yeah. Wouldn't that be wonderful? But you guys should know by now that it's not that easy. The good news about unemployment masks, some deeper, festering issues of inequality and young people entering the job market, are trying to figure out how to make it work, even at a big disadvantage compared to previous generations. We talked last season about how most of the crap being spewed about millennials is nonsense. Millennials are not a monolith millennials are not only middle class to upper class, there, also low income millennials guys, we never talk about them. And on this show, we haven't even really gotten to jen's e. Jenky has just joined the workforce, and the workforce will never be the same mostly because jen's e is rightfully traumatized their work is largely part time they have an impossible time finding well-paying entry level jobs that don't require years and years of quote unquote, experience and rising costs of well, everything has made things like home ownership, kids and even financial stability or mobility seem like a pipe dream. This week on the show. We talked to joy Shan and editor at the California Sunday magazine she decided to dig into what the world of work looks like for jen's e she interviewed all kinds of people in their teens and early twenties. Some of their parents professors generational consultants, which is the thing we will get into what that is soon and economic experts about what it looks like for jen's e to go to work. She found plenty of depressing realities that higher and higher degrees are needed for jobs that wages are too low for jen's e to realistically live on, and that the rise of Perm Lancers part time gigs is unethical as fuck. They're being told there to educated for retail or service industry jobs, but not educated enough for the jobs, their parents or grandparents could have easily nabbed at their age increasingly people have jen's e are taking internships and fellowships as starter gigs, where pay health insurance questionable the internet and the ubiquitous nature of applying for jobs online has also caused a flood. Of more applicants than employers know what to do with competition has become incredibly fierce for even the jobs that don't require a lot of experience or education. And because jen's e is graduating, both high school and college with low expectations and immense desperation, they often don't know what to ask for, or what conditions and treatment is appropriate. Companies are therefore able to really take advantage of their young workforce, and believe me, they do I've talked before on this show about the danger of companies saying were family, we all work here because we love the company and we love each other, and we're just so passionate in her article called for higher joy covers the cult of the twenty four seven workday and the toil glamour surrounding the hashtag grind toil. Glamour, by the way is the name of my new band, so who is jen's e. And what are they doing at work? The oldest gency people, according to, like the sort of official cutoff date, and we can talk about where this term comes from later arbitrariness of it, but the official cutoff date for the oldest. One's is those born in nineteen Ninety-six. So the oldest people graduated from college, if they went to college in twenty eighteen and the youngest ones are like in their pre teen age right now. And so what had where to jen's e come from, like, why is this the, the name of the generation, and like, you know, I always fight back against sort of talking about generations as a monolith. So where did where did jen's e come from? I'm so glad you said that out the monolith, too. So the name comes from, I'm actually not sure I'm guessing, just has to do with, like there's genetics and gen Y. And then now it's jen's e but these sort of like generational names. I think a lot of them are sort of like marketing terms. One thing that I sort of happened upon while doing research for this story was that there's this cottage industry now of like multi generational workplace consultants in their whole job is like consult, for companies. How to cater to the younger generation because they're so different. And like people don't understand them and things like that. So I sort of entered it with a bit of skepticism Zoe how different could Chelsea be from millennials, which is what I am. But what I found was that. There are some there are some pretty big intrinsic and behavioral differences. What are generational consultants? They're people who sort of they specialize in helping like a company assay, mostly, like people in their forties, or thirty thirties, or forties. They specialize in helping employers basically like figure out what is going on in the young people's minds and like, how do you attract them to this company, and how do you retain them because people are definitely moving from job to job with more repetitive than they were before. So one woman, I spoke to she runs this consultancy called XYZ university. And what they do. They do a ton of focus groups with outta lessons, jen's, e people, and also millennials, and they also do surveys about what they want from the workplace, and they bring suggestions to different companies about, like, how they might change things about company hierarchy or hiring structure, or like branding, and website to better attract themselves, for, like, the newer people who are coming into the workforce loud. So there. There's that much of a disconnect between the people hiring and the people looking for jobs. Yes. Completely. I mean don't we see it in some of these, like Lincoln articles that go viral like like the HR consultant who's like, oh my God. All these candidates are ghosting me and I don't know what to do. So. Yeah. I think that there are people who are sort of experiencing that cultural difference and are just like trying to figure out how to adapt to it. I mean a lot of that, and I'm maybe projecting. But a lot of that to me is like it seems like the companies are like, well, we used to be able to treat people like shit. And now these young people come in and they don't want to be treated like shit. I'm confused. Yeah. I mean, I think you're totally right. And what I noticed my friends. So like, younger millennials also, the people I spoke to is, like, there's this idea that you are the only person looking out for you right now. Previously. We have this idea that we always refer back to just like previously, you would work for a company, you would start in the mail room or whatever stay there for like twenty thirty years. Get a really good salary get all these benefits. Get a pension retire live. You're like best life. And I think like sorry in two thousand eight and maybe even before, but especially into two thousand in the midst of all these layoffs, there's this sort of broader recognition that. Oh my God. Like your company really isn't looking out for you the way you thought you were. And I think all these changes that we've seen in corporate restructuring has affirmed that so like, now I think you can go to any young person and be like, you know, is your employer looking out for you? And most people say, well, even if you have a good relationship with your boss. Maybe you really do have to look out for yourself. And so I think that's why that's why people are also changing jobs more. 'cause like that's a way to sort of like a crew more opportunity. You know, you can earn more by doing that. And also something doesn't suit, you, you can probably leave. Yeah. I mean my very first job, I, I was working in a newsroom and within like six months, there was something that happened, where they didn't have enough money and I watch. Everyone around me get fired. So at that point, you start panicking and looking like there's no loyalty to the job because the job, I think, what I really resonated with the articles, the job demand so much of you. But then gives you basically nothing back. Yes. And so you say that there's, like different attitudes from jersey. Is it that they, they are just recognizing that and voicing it and saying it rather than sort of like my parents age, who would be like no you just get treated like shit by a Boston than you go to work, and you do it? And that's what you do. And I think like is it is it that day? I mean it also it seems like a mix of optimism in that I can get a better job. I want more for myself people should be treated better, and defeatism of, like, well, the future sucks. So I'm just gonna like, do what I want. That's a really good question. Gaby is actually sort of tried to wrap my head around this. Well, because on the one hand. End we have this ladder thing that you're pointing out, which is almost is like, well like things looking kind of bleak. And all I have is me. So that's definitely out there. And one of the last pieces that was part of this story was about hell yogurt, people sort of recognizing this hustle, culture? That's everywhere this drive to work twenty four seven yes. And the three people, we spoke to are finding ways to get out of that to escape temporarily, and so one of the women, quite really Dort speaking, do she just graduated. But she was saying, like, you know, I actually believe that you should try to steal as much time and money from your employees. You can not money. Jack. I. Okay. I you should. Yes. I, I agree with this woman. Can you explain what she said, I fully am on board with this. And this is maybe this'll be what exposes in cancels me. Take paper from your company bathroom, take a paper home with you. I don't care if you work for a big not a mom and pop. But if you work for a corporation, put fill your backpack with toilet paper, take that shit home. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Did you see that a near at times piece about, oh my God, I was obsessed with the story, but it was in the style section. And it was about how employees at companies that offer snack bowls are basically, like making lunch -able meals out of those snack bulls. Absolutely. I love that piece in. There was an amazing there. Several amazing quotes in the story that was like, well, like, dude. I'm living in New York it's so expensive. My salary gets me. They're kind of hundred percent. If I can just like make this pizza of this, like this cracker cheese situation. Then like I can save forty dollars a week. But yo- open your backpack, put all the granola bars in their closure backpack. Go home. I have. No. I'm feel bad about that. So this woman, we spoke to she just graduated pretty recently. And I think it was really interesting about her was that she recognized upon basically, like the first separate job process when she was like looking at all these job openings, she was saying, I noticed that there is this language around work, that made it seem as though I would have to give up all of my time, and it's really, really common in the bay area, and I bet a New York as well. Where they're just like an intense work culture words, like we're all passionate people, and we all have this, like drive in this devotion to succeed in where a community of like passionate like minded individuals stuff like that. And I, I actually ran a search on indeed, the job board website and search for the word passionate and found that there were like two hundred fifty thousand entry level openings that came up the had the word passionate in it. And they were all jobs, like I think in. We sort of expect this sort of language. Now, maybe but they weren't all jobs like that, right there were, like, legal jobs. There were like warehouse associate jobs. There were retail jobs like it sort of ran, the, the salary spectrum, but she was saying she noticed that, and she said, I don't want that. So she found a job that didn't expect that of her. And then even she said that even when shoes there, she noticed that a lot of her colleagues don't wanna take lunch like they don't they want to eat lunch at their desk, or her freight of being gone for too long, but she makes it a point to she can find a way to read books that are desk if she can escape for afternoon, coffee also read more she'll do that. Which I found really surprising, I think that for, for me at least I think for a lot of the people who are my age or older. We are so steeped in this culture of having to work twenty four seven that when someone. Named it and like called it out. It was like a revelation. I was like, oh my God. Yes, that is what we're doing. But we don't have a we don't have distance from it. And I think that what's so interesting about talking to people who are coming into the workforce right now is that they can see all these dynamics that are playing out in front of them in people older than them, and they can interpret, analyze it, and then find their own response to it in a way that maybe like I wasn't able to yeah, the word passionate, I feel is, is a, a way to say, we're not going to pay you that much tree that, well but but you're gonna love it. Like, I think Mr. action it's a word. It's like a euphemism for I mean, I love when you were talking about had never heard it phrased this way, the toil glamour like the idea of like I'm working so hard. I'm hustling so hard. It's glamorous. So do you see that Jesse isn't isn't falling for that as much? Because I know me personally, like I've been this way for so long. And my job has been this way for so long that I'm thirty and I'm just now figuring out how to do things that don't have an endgame. Like I literally have picked up guitar because I'm lying because I'm like, I this is the first time in my entire life starting at age fourteen when I had a job to now. So sixteen years, where I'm like, you know that you can do things and have skills that don't have to do with, like making money and work, but I took me sixteen years to figure that out. So like, do you see a difference where jen's e is sort of like already on that tip? That's a really good question. I was curious about that as well. So I could see the answer going both ways. And I think that right now because we only have one year of them being in the workplace that we don't quite have enough anecdotal evidence to go off yet. I could see going to way. So one of them is that they're going to be hustling, as much or even more than all of us, I spoke to this one guy, who was he was about to graduate from really competitive engineering school with an engineering degree, and Hugh saying that he hasn't graduated yet he's already working three jobs. Just keep up with how expensive tuition is. And he said all his friends were doing that, too. And so, because of how they have this expectation that it's going to be, they're going to have to work harder for maybe less. We could see a world in which they're just going to keep working really, really hard. And I think also, especially everyone, I spoke to so driven to like make to set themselves up as well as they can given how competitive everything is like we could see them working even harder. But there's this one again, going back to the sort of workplace consultant, there was one person, I spoke to who said that she. Is beginning to see the hint of maybe returning to this idea of work life, balance in young people. But she wasn't sure where that was going if that were to happen if the pendulum swing in the opposite direction of optimization. I think it'd be super fascinating, but we're forgetting about too. Is that like the toil glamour has so much do with social media, and just being online and presenting yourself online? Oh, yeah. It becomes more apparent who is like living their best work life, and who isn't and one precise to specifically talked about, like the cool workplace trend going on Instagram and seeing all these people who are in there like cool open plan offices with like LaCroix and ping pong, and like, like life changing company mottos and all the stuff it just kind of bad and feeling like they are being left out us something. Yeah. Well, it's hard to put your good health insurance plan on Instagram, but you sure as hell can. Host about in bowls. So there was a thing that really stuck out to me about young job-seekers coming up against even like entry level jobs, requiring three years of experience this thing, where it was, like if you are a person who wants to even do like service or retail, you kind of need to like that's going to someone with a bachelor's degree versus like it used to go to someone who maybe didn't have a degree versus like now, the, the entry level job that would have gone to the person with the bachelor's degree is now going to, like someone with four years experience and a masters, can you explain like what these jen's ears are finding when they search yet, totally this is one of the more interesting things that I came across to, I think that sort of an anecdote people were telling us over and over is here's a job. And if I look at just the description of the job in what I have to do. I think I could do that. But it wants to or three years of experience and I think. That we're sort of used to hearing the story, right? And just sort of accepting that, but when I spoke to some economists, we heard this narrative that I thought was really interesting, which is that prior to two thousand eight companies were already beginning to outsource automate routine work, so data entry clerical stuff, things like that. But in two thousand one thousand eight happened a lot of companies were like oh, you know, we have to we have to downsize, like we have to start saving money. So it really catalyzed companies is start looking for ways to cut costs. So one of them was to sort of automate out, more routine work, and then also what happened in two thousand eight was that there was suddenly a bunch of really qualified college educated, skilled people who didn't have jobs. And so if you're an employer, like suddenly, you just you could choose from almost anybody, and that meant that, like a job that went to say, somebody who just graduated from college, you could suddenly someone with five. Years of experience, do there's a sort of specific economic term for this called credential inflation, or up credentialing. And what a number of people told me was that, you know, even though we're in a very different job market. Now the effects of this are still present. So we spoke to a number of recent hires who found ways around this, and all of them had really interesting strategies, actually. But what one young woman said was that she was tempted to separate volunteer, unpaid work and to sort of make the volunteer work sound more like a hobby, almost like, hold on. Like I can't do this. Like I she had a job at a bookstore, what I put into this, unpaid work at a bookstore is like, really it's quite valuable. So she's, she's Beasley found a way to, like, rephrase, it such that everything sounded as value over experiences sounded avalaible as they actually were. Which I think is she? He made the point to. It's as a woman, you know, like I'm gonna come go into every interview be like oh, shoot like I'm not qualified and it's all. So she's like I'm counterbalancing it, it was such a compelling argument. And what was really interesting too. Is that like a lot of these economists who study under employment? They found that women are so much more likely to be under employed. It's like another added twist to the pay gap conversation that's going on. Right. Which is like if you start out in your first job in a job that doesn't match what you went to school for doesn't match our level of degree. It's sort of, like impacts the rest of your earning potential for the rest of your life impacts career trajectory for the rest of your life. That's exactly what I wanted to talk about. Which was like this idea of beefing up your resume by giving the work that you did the power that it deserves. Because I think people are looking at these job listings and saying, oh, it says three years experience. Like I worked at my school newspaper. It's three years experience at a newspaper and I go, oh well, I only worked in my school newspaper. But I just said, like wrote news. Articles like you don't have to mention if you got paid or not just like wrote news articles for three years, like that's that's true. So that I found that really interesting in that the gen Z people you had talked to sorta figured that out. Yeah. Absolutely. And as this young woman said better than I ever could. She's like counter-balancing pre existing power structures by doing so. Yeah. It's not lying. Exactly. You're saying, look, I'm sorry, that this is the city for you. But like that doesn't allow any of us to find jobs. So here we are so one thing that stuck out in terms of, of not understanding the job market is in this rang. Very true. To me is people who, who want more money, but they don't necessarily know what to ask for. They don't know what to charge or they also are like setting unrealistic, deadlines in the sense that like the employer will be like, well, how long will it take you to do this? And then they wanna say short amount of time so they're like two weeks. But, like, really, it's a month, but they just feel like weird. They don't know what the realistic. Timeline is or what the realistic salary is like, is there that sort of anxiety going on for younger people to where they they're not sure what the etiquette is? When that came up, specifically was in this discussion of like self employment and gave them work, because one of the things that we talked about, in the piece with sort of this very growing very nascent move on behalf of colleges community colleges, and then also four-year colleges to sort of teach students, how to be their own boss in a way because of how where the economy is going in, like house so much work. Now is independent and freelance and contract where we focus that piece of the story was on this really interesting pilot project, that happened at twenty three community colleges in California where it was called the gig economy pilot project and like these business professors were teaching students like. Okay, let's say you want to find a gig work and be your own boss, in, like do independent contracting. How do you actually turn that into like a feasible career and not just a side hustle? And how do you not get screwed because it's so easy to get screwed. Oh, yeah. And so part of that conversation was also about, like cares how much charge. Here's how much you should feasibly earn per hour. Order to make this actually work what we've learned, especially in the last few years is that it's just as easy to not make enough money doing that kind of work as it is to actually succeed. Oh, I think people are scared. I mean, either question I get most is like from high schoolers, who say, I am an artist or I do these things that are independent contractor things than I don't know what to ask for. I'm scared that they'll take the money away, like am I under valuing my overvaluing myself like they're they're incredibly nervous? I think because they just. I don't know what they're worth, or they, they don't know that the company isn't their friend and the client isn't like there, buddy. I mean. Yeah. Yep. Isn't it so interesting that they have to think about the high schoolers? That's so young like oh yeah. It's so interesting that they even have to think about that from such an early age magin for our parents. You don't you just as soon. We're going to have a salary job with. Yes. That's you don't have to really be like, how much charge for our, you know, it's kind of just there, you're set. But yeah, this is definitely a new question. That's become very relevant now. Like, how do you do your time, because your time can go in so many different directions? What about entering the workforce for people who are jen's e who don't have a degree, or who are coming into it straight at high school? I feel like a lot of times there's focus on what's going on with the college graduates, but that's like a certain subset of person. And we've talked about this with millennials where. We're not talking about the people that are of this generation that are lower income. Yeah. I'm really glad you brought that up your sort of conceiving this story. There's a lot of conversation about, you know, how much do we want to focus on college grads? We did for the most part, focus it on people who went to college, because the value of that is sort of influx right now. And I think that the value of college right, the value college looks. And there's this idea that you in the past if you go to college, it'll guarantee a good life. You know, quote unquote, good life. Good job stable income. Maybe you can buy a house all that nice stuff. And that's not a guarantee anymore. And I think that will we're seeing is it feels like the start of a cultural shift. But like the very start of it. But I think there's this broader awareness that maybe college is not is not the best option for everybody. So. So I think there's a broader wariness that. Oh my gosh. Maybe we should do like cost benefit analysis. Maybe for me the returns aren't as high as they could be. And what are some like lower cost alternatives to that? Yeah. Because it is it is at odds with the idea of credential, inflation though, right? Yeah. A little bit. I'm glad you brought that up. But I think the credential inflation also has to do with experience and like can you make up for not having say a bachelor's degree with a ton of work experience, and I think are number of programs around the country that are experimenting with the apprenticeship model. So can you find someone who's like fifteen years old who sort of already has a sense of what they wanna do? And just start giving them job experience, then and setting them up did. Oh, did you did you do? I I worked at a all of most also cater waiter. And I was bad at it. But I mostly in high school worked as a reporter for a newspaper until I went to school for journalism. We'll do you think that when you started applying for jobs? Having dot experience the wood from when you are in high school. Like, do you think it like accounted for something? I think it was helpful. Yeah. Because now I'm thirty and I and I have fifteen years of professional journalism experience versus like you know, versus like someone who got out of school with me, and would have like eight years, right, right? Yeah. The apprenticeship model is saying, like okay, so let's take some news. Fifteen start training them for a middle skill jobs, so job that could sort of guarantee not guarantee. There are no guarantees anymore, but that could set them up for like, actually having, like a really good salary down the line. And then maybe they don't have to go to college or maybe they can get an associate's degree while working, and then not take out, two hundred thousand dollars in loans, and could they actually be better for both them and for their employers because then they can start working right away? So that sort of a thing that, starting it's also wild to be like, how can we best prepare children for capitalism? Just bonkers. I think it's so hard escape capitalism, unless you're like, really rich. Right. Like, is that the only way isn't that isn't that shit? Exactly, as you were saying about those high schoolers, you were talking to there have been surveys of young people like people who are still in high school that finds that so many of them are already trying to like earn income on the side. That's like like you. They're hustling. They're selling clothes on Mark. They're asking you for advice about how to charge per hour. Have one who I met in Chicago, who is like a full like she's a photographer. So she like, as graduated from high school and was, or was a senior when I met her, and it was like post me on Instagram, so my Instagram gets likes and I was like, yeah. Okay. So I posted her like she's like a cheese to work as a photographer using Instagram as a business card. It was like a seventeen year old. You're in it. We have to swim in it. And I think that for these for younger people now, especially people who sort of watch people be affected by two thousand eight it's sort of like, oh my gosh. You know there's this pressure to find a way to be financially stable as possible, and the only way to do that, just plea game and played as best as you can. So let's talk about okay, two things. One is the people that are choosing between dream jobs and higher paying jobs because millennials, and I'm again, were being very monolithic about it. But, like millennials were sort. Seen as being more in the press being more like I want my dream job versus like there was this idea that gen-x was very like I need stability, and I need a job, that's gonna make money because I'm on home and have kids. So, like, where's jen's e at right? They think they can own homes. Do they think they can have kids? I think they think I think they think that they're gonna have to work really, really damn hard for that yum. So I'll maybe start with what a workplace consultant person told me I, which I thought was compelling. And then we can talk about like, what exactly I heard from some people. But one of them told me, you know, you are so much more influenced by the previous generation the new thing, so she them Eleni oils were raised a lot of marines by boomers who sort of grew up in this time, where things were pretty good. There's a lot of social safety. Nets in place and author kids, you know what? Like you just take what you like and you do that. And things will work out sort of raising kids with these rose colored glasses on, and the same is not true for Genesee like when two thousand eight happened, those graduates graduating class two eight two thousand nine they were the most debt ridden generation in history. And then the generation above them was second most decorated. So. What this consultant told me was that. Like for jen's ITO. They watch their parents deal with the aftermath of Chas navy. Wasn't their parents, their older siblings? And then coupled with the financial crisis. Also, the student debt crisis, and just how people are saddled with debt from college. They were promised that they would be able to pay them off with a good job. But that promise worked out for some people, it wasn't quite able to for a lot of others. Yeah. They're traumatized by what they saw, and they were kids, they were kids, and I think a sentence, I heard over and over which I found so fascinating was that even if their families themselves were not like concrete. -ly effected desire is still there. And so what I heard over and over was like, I just don't want to have to worry. I don't have to that. Whether or not my job will be there. I don't have to worry about whether or not can support my kids, I just wanna being Ziobro free. And so, maybe having a dream job is in his dreamy, as it actually is if it's going. Fill me with so much Zayed. You know, maybe I, I can do a more stable thing to conversations, one that I had one that my coat reporter, Tom had that talked about, like the sort of interesting financial behavior of people who are sort of grew up with this. There's so much news about like debt debt debt. But we spoke to people who were just so frightened of taking on debt because they are worried about getting stuck with these loans that they can pay off and one young man, I spoke to basically said that his dad had to force him to get a credit card. So he could start building credit but he was so terrified of it, because he thought you just be so easy to be underwater, which is so different from the previous the previous narrative of American spending culture, which is that we love done. Like we take so much on in like you just forget about it. It's really different from that. I mean, the idea of just being like I don't wanna have anxiety and you know what kind of made me sad. When you. That was like if my dream job causes anxiety and debt than I don't want it. And it's like my first thought was how much are we losing out on as a culture because of this? How much are we, you know, how much are these kids losing out on because or that we're losing out on in terms of their talents, because they have recession PTSD, essentially, yeah. I didn't even think about that. But yellow I'm here to bum you out. Can we also talk about? I'm fascinated by this thing of fellowships rather than entry level jobs. What's the thinking there of a company saying, well, we don't have an entry level job for you. But we do have a fellowship. Yeah, we spoke to one young man who initially sort of going about his job. Search in the typical way and then was fined hitting the wall that we talked about earlier, which is this sort of two to three years minimum experience. But they're these fellowship programs where maybe there for, like nine months. If you're a new grad, and they pay you very little pay. You basically enough for you to live and make hopefully not have any medical emergencies there. No benefits, and they end after nine months, although I think there's some fellowship programs we can get hired after that. But there's sort of like it's like a new entry level job in a way, it's like you come, you work, make connections but you have to like. Then he replaced then you replace with the fresh cohort. Yeah. Yeah. But hopefully during that time you found enough you know, you got enough under your belt to like find like your first job that's on a fellowship job. Yeah. I've worked places that had those, and it was definitely a way to cycle people through and it caused. I think a lot of the fellows were very stressed out the entire time because they were trying to turn it into a job, or they were they were trying to figure out how to make a lasting impression. I feel like it's I feel like it's pretty unethical, but it's very normalized by this, this age, these people this age. It's very normalized. Yeah. Completely. I think it's almost like this woman. I spoke to Hugh is like there's a very negative connotation around unpaid internship. I think that there's like in two thousand fourteen there was like a reckoning about unpaid internships in the industry was, like, okay. Well, you got to move past that. No more unpaid internships. But he's like. So it's huge like, yeah, there's a negative connotation around it, but it's not as bad as unpaid internship. So at least you get paid. But the thing you're saying about eighty and about like can you turn it into a job? That's so real. I mean, this young man was so well adjusted but he was basically, like you just have to like, raise your hand for everything. You're gonna work super hard. You're going to work, probably more than definitely more than you're being paid for. But it's the idea like this promise at the end that it can turn into something that you're like ultimately getting rat in lieu of, you know, like benefits company. The company for that they're like, hoping to just keep getting people in who will work work work work for them. And then they and in the hopes that something it will turn into something. I mean okay so when you were talking about the people that stay at their desks during lunch. They have a thing in their mind where they think that that is good. That, that makes them a better employee or that they are proving something to the like, what is this whole like the grind or like twenty four hour like I'm is born out of exile is born out of not understanding how jobs work or not employers. I mean, is it true? Like I didn't know when I started like other people eating at their desk. So I was like, I guess we eat at our desks, like I didn't know. Yeah. I mean I could talk if I left my desk, what I get fired. Dude, I could talk about this for a whole other hour, probably. But I think it's like they're two sources of it. So one of them is definitely, I think we can't ignore the employer side of things and I surely won't because I think they're really at fault, but what, what one person told me one prisoner has a pretty cushy job. But who still feels like he needs to work all the time was that you just don't know because, like how precarious work has become this idea that you could be fired tomorrow. You could be replaced fired literally whatever. Right. It's like it's so wild. I mean, that has such a big impact on people's, like ideas of, like how hard they have to work. Right. You really feel like dude, I just really have to like prove to them that I have so valuable and just work super super hard right now. And maybe they'll like let me say, like I think. That's and I'll get a Perm ocean. It's I hope they, let me stay and a lot of gen Z feels that way. Yeah. I because I think there is this idea of, like you can be replaced anytime. I mean we definitely learned that lesson. We've, we've been learning that lesson for the last ten years. And I think that part of this conversation also just has to do with, like, how companies are restructuring it saves them more money. It can save them up to thirty percent of their costs by relying on freelance and contract work, rather than Lancers. Yeah, exactly. And so when you're purchasing ethical, you were always additioning for your next job, you know, like in addition to doing the job, you're also applying for the next job the next assignment, they'll give you. Yes. Yeah. So that I mean, of course you have to like always work, but I think also like given how expensive everything is to. And how the cost of living is higher would a lot of young. Younger people were also telling me was that the way to find meaning it's very hard to find eating in life. Now, we're also very secular. We're in a very secular moment. And if you don't have a family, and you don't really have this sort of community village around you. Oh my gosh. This one person said the sing that broke my heart. He was like, if you are having a bad day, you can always go to work, and just do more work and get allegation from that. It's was like a positive feedback loop because of a housemanship, everything is people are putting off things like family a lot more. And so that means that we can actually just work more, because we don't have these other obligations work becomes this thing that we can get so much meaning and fulfillment out of maybe or that we hope to. And that just sort of encourages people to throw everything into it. So the legislation has not caught up to the reality of people's job situations. So with the article with talking to jen's e with exp-. Planing having jen's e in their own voices. Explain what's going on for them, workwise whether that's someone who just graduated from college or someone who is low income in works. Minimum wage, or is low income and is trying to find a job through job Corp or something like that. Like, what is the legislation missing? What would make the future better for them, basically? Like what are they not caught up on? Oh gabby. I've already qualified answer that question. Deliciously piece the place of that got mentioned was about the sort of freelance independent work like how, how common that's become. Yes. If you do, gigging, you're not gonna have benefits, you're not gonna have health insurance. It'll be hard to have paid leave. I've you get injured like no one's going to be able to pay for your medical bills, stuff like that. And so where this was coming up was. People are saying that the legislation needs to find a way to like, build safety nuts for this kind of work, especially if more people are going to be doing that kind of work. So I think there's been moves to make like a portable benefits package. So instead of being it being attached to a job. It's just attached to the person as they go from, that's an idea that's thrown out there. So are there more of a lean towards towards socialism from young people to is that part of the I it came up in one interview it came up in one really memorable interview where this young man was talking about, watching Bernie Sanders during the last election in sort of Hughes in school and in school in San Francisco, and watching all of his, friends, basically, like deal with the weight of trying to put themselves through school. Also trying to pay off debt it cetera. Their lives are stunted before they start essentially. Yes. And use like you know what education should like? Everyone should have education and shouldn't have to be like, just for like, rich people using really moved by Bernie Sanders, but in terms of other conversations, it's like we were talking earlier about this is the river and you have to swim in it. I detected a lot of savvy, and I think they're so much more conscious of the social forces around them than I was even though I'm like three years older. Only three years older than some of these people. But what I also detected a lot of like alongside this really deepened precocious knowledge of what's going on right now in the economy in the world. This practical this put lean towards practicality and pragmatism sits, it'll be really curious to see how these two forces play out because they're a little bad that are kind of at all. It's yeah. I think a lot of this stuff will have a lot of long-term effects on this generation in no matter what class. So I just wanna I wanna leave off with, with one thing, a quote that stuck out someone talking about work, and they said, I kind of just exist there it's a place for me to make money, my company, bleeds, its employees, dry management could hire a lot more people, but they know that these people can handle it for a year or two. And once they burn out replaced by a fresh set it's a big meat grinder, a lot of my friends work fifty to sixty hours a week because they're given that much work. But I say you owe the company forty hours they pay you for and nothing else who. Say that, that's I felt that that was very indicative as a quote. Oh man, yes, this person is interview killed me. This was named person who was talking about how, you know, if you're having a bad day, you can always just work more. And he feels that management knows this, particularly among young people and can take advantage of that. Yeah, it sort of when you saying, you know, I just sort of exist there to me, it really blew my mind, because we've been, I think we have been told so many things about work, and what our relationship to work should be. You know, going back to the whole passionate thing. Or maybe you're not being paid a lot now but maybe you'll be paid more. Once you're like a superstar cetera et cetera yen. But would you say which is almost like nihilist, right? Like. And I'm getting paid. I'm there I can go. It's. It really it really shook me and it felt it felt very novel felt like something I don't hear my friends, articulate and also like, I think there's a stigma to sing something like this publicly and the final, there's a stigma around saying, you know, I just go to work for work. The fact that there's a stigma among young people to say that is fascinating. I think it speaks volumes about what we expect people to get and to put into their work. That was money as a production of Stitcher. Our show is produced an edited by Melissa, Yeager, Miller, and sound engineered and mixed Brendon burns are associated producers, Kristen Torres and are supervising producers Josephine, Martorana are executive producers, Chris Bannon are performed by Sam Barbara and was written by Mike. Kaplan. Zach Sherwin Jack Dolgin I'm Gabby done and I'll talk to you next week. Bye. Stitcher.