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#61: Participating in the life of God (with Father Kenneth Tanner)


Welcome back everybody to the Pud cast with me. Jonathan puddle. This is episode sixty eighty one. You guys I have just finished editing this podcast and I am honestly overjoyed. I am overflowing with love and appreciation cruciate for the goodness of God. I am actually having a really hard time sitting here doing the rest of wanted. Just go by in the goodness of God. So I'm going to do that but but I'm going to put this together for you guys so that you can enjoy it to my guest is Father Kenneth Tanner. Some of you may have seen from his wonderful memes that he posts he is a priest Episcopal Church. She lives in Michigan and we had a wonderful conversation about the character of God and participating in his divine life so the first officer father can inspire where he came from the second. Half we get richly into this participative discussion on God and I think you're going to enjoy it. The character of God is really something that's important to me and I think it it's the source of so much misunderstanding of our faith and The Gospel and it's important to me deeply important that we get that right and any man. Well I'm interested in them. How you grew up did you? Ah You're a member during a year a priest in the episcopal church but your ear and a charismatic Group of the Episcopal Church and then. Yeah how did you end up here. What's your upbringing? Yeah so I was raised and the costal by a multi generational pentecostal families on my and my mother and my father's side in the south so my father's people are from East Tennessee and the revival took place they around Cleveland and my my mother's family are from Florida and other places. The Carolinas Georgia both sides of the family and So I was raised in a very tricky. God it's a classical pentecostals church and upbringing. My grandparents were very classical pentecostal so A lot of joy. -Joy a lot of exuberance a lot of You know an and in many respects. Besides you know speaking in town you know you're the very most everything else was a very evangelical identity. You know personal conversion to Jesus Christ an emphasis on the blood. Ah Sacrifice that John Across Daily Bible reading in in prayer Personal relationship with Jesus. He's a So you know Sunday school with our flannel graphs. and the whole nine yards. The difference would have been speaking in tongues and But otherwise you know sort of how how a baptist grew up in the south would be the same you know. Sort of faith eighth. I was brought into my father was killed in Vietnam and they can seventy five years old and my mother about five five years after that remarried a US minister of the Church of God. Her father was a pastor in the Church of God and he in a a few years tickets into more charismatic circles and charismatic movement. was you know in its second decade and the latter seventies when he he took us into that and that was my experience. You know my my upper elementary middle school high school college years was the charismatic movement. And of course as many of your listeners in you yourself would understand has many different facets directions Um uh-huh it was it was like pentecost happening and the Cat Catholic Church and the Methodist Church the Baptist Church and the Lutheran Church and all those different traditions brought there. There's sort of orientation all the questions to this charismatic experience but also there was lots of new things that came along sort of new quote unquote teachings and my parents bless them. Send it to ride every wave of something new idea. They came while so By the time I got it or university which is why I went to school from my sophomore year on I was in high school in California the first year I was starting to get weary of I don't no no charismatic Enthusiasm Sort of the just teaching there were coming from all sorts workplace as Some of which were interesting others which were sort of horrible you know and I and I remember I mean. I've told this story before. But it's very pretty dramatic in my life and I I mean I'm not expecting it to me and Obviously the same thing to everyone but it was the day of the shuttle Challenger blew up and nineteen. Eighty six January We are all Roberts I would have been in my I would have been in my eighty four eighty five eighty five. I remember my second half of my second year there and You know the campus very TV film oriented Lots of people. In fact my friend Bill Weir is a work for CNN. People Friends of ours. Hollywood but You know everybody saw this thing because they had closed circuit. TV All throughout the dorms. The Learning Center everywhere and we gathered for the Chapel Service. Yes we did you know multiple times a week And we got in there and the Pastor said you know. This horrible thing has happened You know today and it's you know it's it's terrible for Americans were you know. It's sad but were here to praise God and and inside these four walls. We're going to just exalt as me and so forth and so on and they you know they had a couple of drummers guitars piano other instruments lots of singers and they just you know launched into like appraise service and I was like I've sat down on. I can't the any more I it. There's if what's happening in the real world outside and suffering has no place in here and as human beings we can't prox- up what's happening here. We've got to go do something else and you know. There's a healthy dose of escapism. You know and my pentecostal upbringing in a lot of charismatic religion. You know of you know Kind of leaving behind this you know broken world and going to some plain which which gets reflected in the worship a lot and I mean I was bake I mean it was starting to become aware as a young adult that that all all of these influence and I that day I was like I. I can't do this anymore. So interestingly enough the only day I remember a member of the Theology Faculty speaking our you want people to understand about oreo founded in the late sixties and the charismatic renewal. And just like like I said people from all the ultra coach had this experience and people from like Brown Missouri. Quick positions they had tenured position it came to teach at the faculty were outstanding. I mean we were reading. You know we. We were reading Connor and we were reading Robert Alter the you know the literary Jewish scholar. And you know Rabbi Shaul and everybody and now and so But the spiritual life of the campus had been by the mid eighties have been taken over by the word of faith movement where we used to have a lot of those celebrities come in and speak and so forth and the only time I remember A Faculty member speaking with that service and he got a he was a pentecostal store in And he got up and talked about how he and his wife had come to experience her death from cancer our as participation in the sufferings of Jesus and how Jesus had AH was. They came to experience Christ's suffering with them with his wife and the way she was suffering in his suffering and seeing her diminishing dire and I were sitting there thinking. I want to know more about that. and so Within about a week or two it just the way. My this is true of life in generals. I found this book by I. Thomas our I picked it up in the bookstore. And the first chapter was called Evangelical Not Enough. The first chapter of the book was detailing his his life growing up. You know he's the brother of Elizabeth Valley Edge you know through grace cases splendor. You know Jim Elliott who was slain with his colleagues awesome. They went down into the Bush and But he you know we in Grad You Know Professor Gordon College. And all night he's describing growing growing up in a coal setting with plenty of Sunday school and lots of blood you know blood of Jesus hymns than personal devotion relationship with Jesus all these things in the first chapter and he was like all of these things are beautiful. And that's how I feel about like my pentecostal. The cost grandparent's and my mother. I mean I love my pentecostal heritage. I do I write today. I do but you know it was kind of like I. I started to see that there was something more beyond the experience of my own community growing up in the broader church. Yes and and and so I was like Oh this is interesting I wanted to I beckon chapter. He starts like Erin in my life. Hasn't been the same. Yeah I you know that salvation is not just about my personal soul because interest in saving my body too and he's interested interested in saving the planet his creation that he made good that he had made humanity good. And that's the beginning of the story that the creeds in the scripture and the Kushner's POW is a good God makes a good world because he make anything that's not good who becomes what he makes. He makes human beings in his image and can only become He's good God. He can only become what is essentially good to become human is to become you know something that's good. And in order to redeem I've from the fact that we collectively walked away from love and sewn all this confusion and death and and and suffering in the world and Just gave me this. You know huge visit. What's vacation mean now? And that Burland is what God wants. He's not going to destroy it is you know. He's Kinda save the human race and to do the kind of job that God God set up to do a job. He sets up to do a job. he's going to get it time and he's set out the set. Save the human race and because he loves the cosmos and he loves humanity and so I just was off to the races after that moment and Ah Yes praise God. Oh I love that I Yeah my my journey would be. They're not dissimilar. In a lot of ways I can see myself at a lot of those different points. If we're not allowed to be sad about this that's a problem if if it were allowed to be honest about our suffering. That's a problem if this is all just escapism. Like yeah I remember kind of feeling like I was calling bs on a lot of stuff in my own tradition and again like like you said. I love off the charismatic movement. I love well movements. Maybe the wrong word I love I love the Holy Spirit and I love what God does in his people when I've given them freedom to move. Yeah and and we've learned good things about God by allowing him. His is free reign. But yeah there's this. It's often accompanied very strongly by this kind of like. It's like a baptized fundamentalism. Mm that's like let's quickly get away from here to go and be with Jesus forever. Because we've discovered how wonderful Jesus or Yes. Jesus is wonderful but yeah so wonderful that he's not limiting. Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah you know I it and so there was always you know sort of two reasons that were offered in the movement. You and I grew up in as to why you might be. He's suffering one is that you're doing something they're sending your life or you know if it Cetera and the other possibility is that your her faith is not what it should be if I just always something wrong with you because otherwise you should be everything should be. It's more or less going well with you and of course you and I I'm sure I did saw abuses of spiritual gifts relation of people And just bad acting like you know can be found in any you now any form of the church right but historically when you look at these Spirit movements you know going back doc amok innocence. We're GONNA be historical Christian. We can see that there have been a in when there is an emphasis on gifts of the spirit and this sort of activity which I think is vital to the church's life. Sometimes it's a company to starkly. It's always have have been accompanied at times by A vacuum of more of gifts that are like the brain like discernment and Accountability and Administration and and other things that Bring Order Foundation Dacian oversight wisdom two more ecstatic expression of of the the spirit. And you know we also by by connecting with the church that has been around forever wherever begin to understand spirits roll exceeds you know all of our wildest charismatic expectations because the spirit of God is president the creation of the world It is a spirit of God gives us breath and all things breath and light the spirit of God accompanies the children of Israel And all of the moments of their lives as a nation spirit of God is instrumental in the conception of Jesus with the Virgin and so forth and so I mean it's not just you know the Holy Spirit didn't just show up again in the late nineteenth entering early twentieth century. And sort of leave the church you know as we were. I mean I don't know about you but you know we were sort of popularly taught you know the spirit of God absorb showed back up and we all went to work again for sure with the spirit of God you know. inspired writing scripture We believe leave the spirit of God Out The church decide what war the authentic witnesses to Christ and the New Testament And and You know inspired a church In the formation of the creeds and in the holy example of all of these people that have lived in all is various cultures and times and places and ASAKA walk with Jesus and they all. Have you know preached sermons or written letters or I you know told stories of their experiences and the whole thing is under girded surrounded by the breath of God you know by the Fire God by the by the power our God you know and so Yeah yes I mean. I mean the church grew out of the you know the socal Toronto blessing in the in the nineties and there would be some people who would be tempted to kind of get. Oh Yeah God came back in nine hundred ninety four and had been absent for some time now if nobody would nobody would publicly say that but but there were but they can sometimes be a cultural Turell pressure to think along those lines that now. We've now we've now. We've recovered the true truth and every group of tradition does. That's really interesting. It's not just charismatic and pentecostal with the One of the things things that it's constantly been companion to me since that moment at are you is the realization that I don't see everything. There is a sea of Jesus because they're everything there is to see of God. If I'm only living walking praying with working working with people from my own tradition It's it's it's an edge. It's been an exotic journey. Where people like Joe Vescio helped let me read John? Six a Roman Catholic Jesuit grief. Who helped me to read John Six in a way that I'd never seen it? I'm the tree branches. Come down from having to give life world you eat my flesh and drink my blood. You have my life in you know and you'll receive resurrection. It's up for which I had never been a cost lurk. Charismatic read in that way right and so so we begin to read the Scriptures with methodists Anna Baptists and Presbyterians and charismatic and or the Orthodox and we began to see and we pray with them and we do The Work of the Gospel with them and we become friends with them. We began to drop these. Prejudices Begin to drop these assumptions that we have about the body of Christ. We Begin to see even though Christ doesn't want it. The God doesn't want US divided John. Seventeen very clear you know Jesus says let them be one as you and I are one in with the spirit and And you know we're human and so the church because of sin because of arrogance because of our pride Because of Martin needs to be in control our misunderstanding of the character of God and of power and everything else. We've have all these divisions in the church. That's not what God and can. I do think that God is above. And around. And through all of our send to create the capacity for each of these groups separately to see something about himself that the other group doesn't see see and and and and that and when we come together we begin to see the fullness Zach of who who God is when. We're you know when we were listening to the East and we're listening to the West when we're paying attention to what the reformation saying but it also the Catholic Church and so you know what our Anna Baptist brothers who have a very different understanding and Jesus teaching than we do So it's we start to see a fuller you know and a beautiful. You're more beautiful portrait and so this is also been animating aspect of my journey with Jesus and the thirty year since I while longer almost thirty five years. Now since I first encountered Aaron Yes yes yes well how how else could we hope to encapsulate and understand an infinite God who create something out of nothing yeah with our with our beautiful and wonderful though they are faculties that are so much less. So how did you end up thin where you are today. You know serving in the capacity. You are now. Yeah so I- actor After After College I went working. I had all kinds of job. I I work As a carpenter I work at a newspaper. Journalism was a German English for You know focuses some study and I worked as communications director for a couple of different corporations and all the while I had increasing interest which should really been in my life since my since early very early age both in Scripture and theology which I continued sort of pursue a lot in my reading is a ton of reading From my early years and lots of different from lots of people from different backgrounds and that just became increasingly increasingly I I I got a hold of a Robert Webber. It was at the time teaching we and and he introduced me to the work of Tom. Odin and I started A dialogue with both of them which led me to involvement with Tom in the ancient Christian convert scripture project I attended a parochial seminary of our denomination And began to study for her. I did the academics ordained nineteen ninety two and then in nineteen ninety six the priesthood Our communion is an unusual story It's AH pentecostals. charismatics evangelical and others and many many setting the proxy United States and Canada Philippines and South America and Africa who were encountering in the eighties seventies eighties early nineties as and their own congregation the sacred year The book Different traditions of prayer and Hubris Reading the fathers being really interested in the way they practiced pastoral care. which doesn't get a lot of I think needs to really also be? We reached cover and help the poor and took care of the the needy And so not just their worship. But the way they live and their prayer In the world and has really had been reducing all these practices into our pentecostal charismatic churches. There wasn't anything being at the time. Like the Anglican Mission in America. There wasn't anything like the Anglican Church in North America and so forth and you can go back to the early nineties. Read The Wall Street Journal The Los Angeles Times when Christianity about our movement by you there were articles and magazine called Ministry today to charismatic. Ministerial magazine for ministers. And we just discovered that there were scores of us all over the country. We're doing and came together but there were. There were a lot of Episcopalians in the United States. who were who had experienced renewal concerned about where the principal the church was headed politically and otherwise than just is Jesus need you know the only way to salvation and other issue? They were also looking for a home so that the charismatic church which apart as a a number of Piscopo e. t. with what's called the Episcopal Church now. TC left the episcopal church in the late. Eighties early nineties mid nineties late nineties and joined our era movement and then later they're they're they're starting to become movements out of the TC like being like commission. America America first and then Cain and ACS and so forth and so on Our group is in dialogue with a CNA and So that's that's a little bit of what how I came to serving I served it a perish in California for about Seven years and then I went the two touchstone magazine in Chicago and I was actually on the staff there for six years I did the Journal. Sanity Miller with it or not. Frings Roman Catholic Orthodox and Protestant Christians together thinking about culture and theology the church and do a lot of past. I didn't do a lot of miniature paperwork. I was attending congregation with a lot of students from Wheaton at the time My I got married after College dot and we we had we have had seven children. We moved our family to Chicago and I wasn't really doing ministry then auto five. Oh three I started wanting to be back on. The pulpit and o-5 congregation Michigan invited me to come to be faster of our nomination and I accepted that. And I've been the pastor here for fifteen years and so small congregation about wondering twenty-five members that is about half an hour north of Detroit I love. Ah I love I love the people and you know fifteen years you go through a lot of transitions life of competition. They don't lot of Beautiful saying who are you when I arrived. I've I've a lot of them. A lot of them are in nursing facilities or can't leave home anymore But we also have a lot of you know sort of young families that have been around from the beginning gene these days. There's a lot of young families with children that are newer and A lot of a lot of single folks And it's a very young congregation for a extra You know the WHO's sort of target sort of territory and I'm grateful for that that's beautiful. I love it I think if I well I don't know I said to brands hands on once that. If it was up to me I would be Anna Baptist charismatic but maybe that's not accurate I feel like maybe if it was up to me I would some kind of liturgical charismatic nonviolent. I think that Andrew Player I yes. I don't know I I don't know how charismatic is it definitely describes Brab yes You know who who has a lot of the same as you know. Background But ah I I do. Think it's sort of convergence between Anna Baptism and spirit movements and Orthodoxy and and Yeah all of these things are really a create would be a creative way of going forward in the life of the church in America. I really think we need Hannah. Baptism right now. I really think we need the vision of the Eastern Church to to help us. With the unique problems we have Nationalism and the American Church We Need Anna Baptism to speak to that. Ought to our diction violent Take a little break to thank my patriot. Supporters we've got forty seven people right now today who support me every month on patron patron and they really make this possible. My writing podcasting. Everything else. That I'm doing. I quit my job to do this over a year ago. full-time so thank you so much to all of you anez my latest supporter. Thank you and anybody else You want to join up. Please consider it three dollars a month. Gets you in Patriot dot com slash. Jonathan often puddle. Very easy to sign up and you'll be supporting me keeping great guests like Father Kenneth on the show and putting all the work. And that's record. Thank you so much. We need really authentic understanding of the spirit to to live in US again And we also need good solid theology grounded in the tradition especially the eastern fathers others to help us with the character of God and a longer view history and of God's providential purposes And the ground in the real world grounds us in the south you know and and keeps us were understanding standing. We have a part to play participating in And and Stewart in creation and and being involved all in our social social life of our nation and to bear the Gospel In all walks of life you know. Yeah and So Yeah I want to pick up on one thing that you've and I'm wondering a couple the Times you've you've used the word participating right you. You encountered this this professor who had talked about them participating in the sufferings of Christ as his wife was dying of cancer and even now the way you just talked about participating in caring I feel like some part of the. The experience has been common for a lot of Christians that I feel like a lot of my generation I really stumbling against. Is this idea that we have to do all the work that we kind of like the Evangelical like you've got to be on mission it's urgent. It's all important. Their time is short. Hopefully I'm following following the will of God correctly. I definitely don't WanNa screw that up All of this kind of stuff and this kind of shift. If we're talking about participation that actually God has been doing something as he inviting us to be involved in his work that I think shifts shifts our role and our responsiveness. Your thoughts on that. Well I had a friend named Jack. Heaslip he was a trick. Ireland priest Served as the school counselor for the the the the young people not simple and Dublin Where you know the members of Youtube when school and met each other there was later they're chaplain for The tourist From about elite. The Yeah Ninety Nine on Who used to talk about You know people would ask them. You know What's God's will for my live live? Where am I supposed to be? What am I supposed to be doing with my life? I want to do something for God and you know how do I find out you know. what God has for me and his response was always got hardy at work and your neighborhood and your church and your world else in your life and you discovering what he's already doing and joining the word. Oh God yes. I really think that's important that we that we understand that that the world is saved in that we are saved save by the activity of God not by our activity but by the activity of God. and He's already at work to save creation to save our cultures to save humanity. So we've got to join. We've got to discern ways at work and and and join in that so so the participation it which has become a big category in a lot reading. If you read theology and you're listening from the Alot Gentlemen people talk about it I the one the versus that I that I'm always interested in because they're eucharistic is Fritz cramped the ends where Paul goes into extensive Well he's talking about eating food offered to idols and then he just stopped in the middle of discussion about eating eating food offered to idols. And he says is not the bread that we break up. Participation in the body of Christ is that we bless a participation in his blood. I I don't know if there is a more straightforward doctrine of what's happening at the table. Then right there in the strips are always telling people between John Nixon I in I mean we we have the the A of of the Eucharist right there Yes it's beautiful that people have meditated on it from their meditated. On Jesus saying this is my body this is my birth but Romans six to So Baptism Eucharist are really important here is you. Don't you remember Roman sick that when you were baptized ties. You were baptized into the death of Jesus. So it's like real participation and the Trianon Life That occurs by baptism. By you Chris Communion with the sacred cred with our scriptures By communion with other Christians who are also the real presence of Christ in the world by communion with the poor which God says he is always with then. He's wave baptism. Eucharist scripture other Christian Christian the poor Even he had have the praises of his people. So as we pray and and give God thing We become participants in the divine life. They take up into their life together and The one God takes up into the life that those three person share and So it's really meaningful for me if you can read a lot about all of this But that would would be my way of expressing yes ought to get people writing about it. Yes I love it because it's so much broader and and and deeper than say the sentence prayer and then Jesus comes lives in your heart and then you won't sin anymore or but but that you will so yeah like the there seems to be all these kind of weird dichotomies that we run into right goddess sovereign. But also you have free will but it's like unless you say the sentence prayer then it says your free will is is bigger than whatever God's intention towards you is. It's it's what's interesting to me like you know the Here's something from Robert Johnson. Take a vacation is often misunderstood as a progress to talk by after from this has to be felt that initiates into the trying life itself among it. So what would be progress to from that. If that says Introduces us into the trying to light. How can we paresh from being introduced into their very life? So he says rather is the continual return to our baptism so we we we are Sacramento the united needed to the death and resurrection of Jesus we're Sacramento United. They're trying life and There's no once that occurs. There's not a law grass that can take place in that because we already are participating in his life There is a continual neil return to participation in their life. Where we have we we can? We can stop participating in their life. We have the the passerby and it's really just about returning to the fullness of their life and daily way you know And in a moment by moment you no way we can continue to participate in their life which is of course entirely get you know not dependent upon on on what we do Yeah Yeah Yeah those few which hearkens back to what you were saying about God a good would God creating a good world and good humanity for us to partake of participate and be a part of if you believe if that were fundamentally wrong or broken or dirty why would you. Why would you return? That's not a good thing today. Yeah yeah so I think I do think this is really critical and that a lot of Christians don't understand that we we were made good and this is true. I think of Jewish understanding as well. That's I've been able to come to understand is that we're or made good and you can't blast the good man out of what God creates. There's still fundamentally good are broken. You Bet I mean all you have to do is turn the radio on the TV Rena newspaper. I don't know have any kind of active engagement in your community. I'm a chaplain for our sheriff's Office. you know. We've had a rash of suicide that I've been on scene for and it's taken a bit of a toll on me But but yes the world. Something's not right. But fundamentally fundamentally human beings are created good and God can only become what is good uh-huh and when he becomes human he's becoming something that is fundamentally good broken having decided to walk away from love sowing confusion fusion and sowing death into the creation into our communities our neighborhoods our nations or cultures absolutely And so he comes to offer US forgiveness. He comes to offer US participation in his life. I was just noticing because I've written something about you. We were talking about before we came on line. I you know the the the the luxury for Sunday was the parable of a Pharisee and the you know the public and are the doctor and I've been listening to you. Someone preach the tax On my way to church on Sunday morning with my wife and he had said that the Republican tax cuts are walked away because of contrition for sin at walkaway justified. Bye and I was like no God are ready has objectively justified and forgiven the human even raise And all the ways that he becomes incarnation amongst. He's done it by taking all of our sins upon himself in his conception exception taking all of a sudden it upon himself at our at his at his baptism by participating in all he says be tempted on all the ways that we are without San and yes of course all of this being understood through the cross through his participation Asian and are suffering and death and taking upon himself. All of these things right but listen to this people were saying to me. Well you know God is in forgive until we repent that is not the off and there are plenty of examples of this one is the paralytic who's lower income permanent lowered through the roof. He cannot even get to Jesus he says nothing he does. Nothing is friends lower into this crowded face base where Jesus teaching and Jesus says so you will understand the son of man. That's a thorough. Forgive Sin Rising walk the man Yeah had nothing. He's done nothing. and Jesus declaring his power to forgive sin over the human being who has said is literally said and done nothing so I guess about about agency about participation and God is that we also really need to understand agency and that is God is the agent of the world salvation. God is the agent of my salvation ovation. God is the agent of humanity salvage and And I he is doing all of this forgiving us before dying for us before justifying us before we respond to the love that offered the forgiveness offered the sacrifice that his opera adapted adapted is offered. So that that's my die in us and so that were were infected with this confusion broken. His death and God comes to rescue Hewitt and so we see very clearly enrollment through one man guests entered. How how much more through one man as life then granted to all right so does it require is is I mean I I should say is our faith response part of that absolutely but it comes after God has already on his already? We love got his already forgiveness. God is already like God is already like and yeah so I was talking with a fire. I was talking with a friend while driving home from from Detroit and I could see that he was wrestling through a few things to do with some stuff in his life and I could see that he was stumbling kind of against this thing of it. Is God fundamentally good towards me and end and I just kind of stopped at one point and I said to him dude. What if Because he he would say that he became a Christian three or four years ago and and I just said you know what if God's been just kind of interested in you and pursuing you and knocking on your door in a sense the very moment you were conceived saved and didn't require you to jump through the hoops that that you felt you needed to for whatever reason and we we dial out on that for a minute but again I I saw him stop and the penny dropped and he looked at me and it was like will will that would change everything that that's a different. That's a different story than what I thought I had been told I would respond. Respond very differently To that God those are the moments there so so vital right now and really telling the story you know and and being witnesses you know we have this great opportunity right now to be witnesses the character of God Of the goodness of God of the Look of the love of God Yes he's coming to bring uh and judgment but it's a good such good news because the one who is love love and who loves the world and love each of us knowing the end from the beginning the beginning from the end who love us in that way when he shows up the ring judgment in our life bring judgment in the world. That's really really good news. I can't wait for for him. To take all the best aeges of darkness and and compassion and the areas in my life. Where are each of us knows? We're still broken. And and by the by the by whatever means necessary because whatever means and there are is totally love for me. He's not interested into my destruction. He's interested in me reaching the ends to which he intended. Then we for for for all of us from the beginning. So that's a God. We can trust WHO's not out for our destruction but al for are thriving arriving in the in his image and in for all the purposes God made Another really interesting like example this I preached on Sunday and. I think my got John's reminding of this in chariots of fire. Remember that Eric. Little who is Scottish Evangelical Missionary. You know. He's talking if he doesn't run on Sundays. Remember it's like that's the thing on the Sabbath. He won't run and you know the the committee. The Olympic Committee British Committee are trying to get him to run. What do you mean you're not going to run? We're trying to win medals for the you know for the Queen. And he's like I can't do it and and but he's he's describing running and he's like I run because I sent God pleasure in my doing what he made me to do right. In contrast there's the other young man that's a runner and he's the she said I have when that that gun goes off. I ten seconds to justify my own existence. And there's there's a there's a tremendous contract there between Those two ideas of God and those. There's two ideas of the human person and those because we don't have to justify. Our God has justified data and has made up for good or just because he loves us. And he he's he's simply is a good God and he simply had made us for communion with him and he loves us. What whoa no matter? What and so? That's really really good new. And what's we know that. Then we can start to say. Wow God takes pleasure and who I am and what he's caught. You know made me to do whether it's the you know Be Someone who introduces people to you. Other people who podcast Or works with young people. Or you're a carpenter or your painter or you Work in health professions or try to rescue children at the border or whatever it is that God's made you to do you know Guard the peace or whatever Help the sick Whatever God's called you to do you begin to understand your who got as you? You begin to understand who you are and it's just about got another thing a- along these lines off and Aussie says and it's actually in Contra entre junkies which is the first half before you get on the incarnation. He says the God doesn't end the existence anyone he once human beings to exist as he exists forever and so he comes in order to give us his kind I of existence. That's what he wanted. From the beginning in order to restore us to his everlasting not ending kind of being which is what he wants restores to not to not do to rescue us from from existential death. He he can't do that unless he becomes one US. And so he falls with us until he's fallen below the lowest falling human being in order to raise the human race back into his kind of existence. This is really good news us and a God that we can trust and when we understand that and we understand his that is judgments in his justice are coming in order that we might continue to exist not to destroy it just changes everything then. Yes yes amen. I could do this all day but I know you got to go. Father would you Would you pray for us. Oh absolutely What I just thank thank you for Jonathan And for this program I think you for everybody. That's listening to this I asked Lorde the you would come and reveal that you are love every person listening to this. They might understand in haven't experienced that you are glad that they exist. That you've made them good good and your image that you want them to experience your kind of life life. That doesn't end not not just at the end of their life but now and for eternity and that you're speaking A blessing over for them as I say to them in my own my own words. But they're the words of God through Circuit Paul and Dan through. The wisdom of the church God was. In Christ Jesus reconciling the world to himself not counting gene humanities sends against us. God loves you. God is forgiven. You God is not angry with you and God will never leave. You are partake you and the blessing of God Almighty the Father Son and the Holy Spirit among you and remain with you always. Oh man how good is that that. Thank you father Kenneth for sharing with us so if you need to go on bask in the goodness of God but are you gotta do that. Takes some time set back. Put your hand on your heart and just feel the joy that God has freed. Think feel the joy of your reveling in the goodness. If you want to listen to something similar I did an interview with William Pole young the author of the Shack back. That'll be linked here in the show notes. Go and have a listen to that one as well because these guys are are birds of a feather. Oh and Brad Jerk. Of course FORCI interviewed Brad. Go have a listen to that one to these guys have been seen in the wild together and what. I wouldn't give to sit in a room room with all those men at once and just revel at the goodness of God. Praise the Lord. Wonderful have you have a wonderful week. God bless you will pay go to Jonathan puddle DOT COM Rita. Blog listened to the PODCAST. Follow me on instagram. Twitter facebook Jonathan puddle crates and peace to the pope. uh-huh uh-huh

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