Ross Tucker podcast is but it's not just any Ross Tucker football podcast. It's a Finnish strong Friday presented by Cameo. What Cam you I'll get to that in a second? Prey evidently on Wednesday we had one listener say. Did I say monster Monday on Wednesday. I remember you said it but I don't know if you meant it in regards to that episode I mean I know you said it but it could have been referring to the Monday show. I'm not positive but I saw me at Ross Tucker N._F._l.. Bribes at R._T._F.. podcast same on instagram and facebook by the way and said that I said it was a monster Monday and they were really confused so my problem my bad. Although I guess I would say if I really did say monster Monday on Wednesday I would have thought I would have gotten more than just one tweet about it but I don't know I'm too lazy to go back and check the tape. It doesn't really matter we are here on a finished strong Friday. I should mention by the way I said presented by cameo not really we don't really have a presenting sponsor for this show right now so I just kind of make one up every every episode just for the heck of it and I am on Cameo. Now you familiar with Deborah now. Tell me more seabright now you just said that like they are a sponsor and like no tell me more that was that was fake when I'm really like we're not getting any money. They're not a sponsor like why. Why would you have that? No tell me more Ross voice now making fun of me. You got me curious. Maya ten is up. Oh you never heard of it. No I have not it's new. It's really sweet. Actually you can basically get video shouts from anybody. That's on there and actually right when I some doing more speaking engagements now and the guy that's helping me with the speaking engagements told me hey you should be on cameo so I said okay. What's that because I didn't know what it was either? It's really cool. I mean it's an APP where I literally just someone will say and I got an order. I order like within three hours of when I first signed up for it. So I set a price point and right. Now I said like a twenty five dollars just to play around with it and anybody that wants can get me to give a shout out of video shoutout for whatever purpose and then they show it to whomever whomever for whatever reason so it was one of our listeners from Australia his wife's getting married twice getting married his what that reminds me of the fancy feast his wife is having having a birthday and he said you know he wanted me to do a cameo for her so I can't remember her name or whatever and I just said Hey. It's Ross Tucker. Hope you guys are having a great time for your birthday a appreciate you putting up with whatever his name is. Joe Is Joe listens all the time hope. You have a blast which I was hanging out with you guys. It's like a thirty second video cam. He'll video shoutout. No doubt that you congratulate someone or wish him happy birthday or happy anniversary. Whatever whatever you the person wants it for and it's Kinda cool they pay? I guess he paid like Twenty Five Bucks and I dunno cameo. Take some money and I'd take I ended up getting twenty bucks out of it or whatever which not a lot of money but it's cool for him to get the video and it's fun for me to do it and so now you know what it is but you can like they have like legit like they have like famous. The people on there and you can get them to give a shout out. It's really cool. My Buddy threw a party for his wife recently and it was like Snoop Dogg and ice tea and people. I can't even imagine what their rate is or how much they cost but it's a very cool concept very cool concept you get it now. Got It. Yeah that is really cool. Yeah yet another I. We should try to get them as a sponsor but yet another business. It's like a lot of our sponsors where I sit here and I think why did I not come up with that. That's so simple like video shoutout service for people. Gosh people love that anyway. I'll just have to stick with go big recruiting and my front page story DOT COM BRI. It's a Friday. What do we want the big show no wrong thing again? Guess again Friday. What do we give out because we want them? Mike Single Terry. Oh Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah. I want winners. I want people want to win. Well we want winners. We want people that want to spread the word via social media media. We want people that want to take advantage of our sponsors so boom Becky Thomas. WHO's a TUCK head? She's amazing. I love Becky by the way but she re tweeted. I solve she re tweeted the hazard ground podcast. We don't talk much about the hazard ground podcast or College Football Bros.. PODCAST as we probably should because I'm not actually on them but they are part of our network. Now we're big fans of both of those shows otherwise we wouldn't have taken him on. Has Your ground talks to a combat veteran college football roses three brothers Talking Football College football. It's pretty awesome. Actually so that counts she's retweeting hazard ground spreading the word about the hazard ground so that counts congratulations becky. Let me know if you want to sign the press pass picture card. I know you've won before so you probably already have one of those but let me know what you'd like now sponsor confirmation email winner. Pretty simple you take advantage of any of our sponsors or even just rate and review the show or make a purchase by the Amazon banner ad on our homepage it all counts and you can ask me any question you want and you might win like Jonathan in Milius did Jonathan Minority for Saks underwear which we love. You'll be hearing more about sacks next week. I'm wearing sacks right now because I wear sax every day. I am going to be wearing marrying sacks tomorrow when I go to an amusement park can nobles up in like an hour fifteen minutes north of here so taking the girls up there to nobles which is fun kind of Keto Wissa Pennsylvania Leesburg Pennsylvania so you know what they have their Bri that I love what's that what's like your favorite carnival or like amusement park food. Can you think of one EP Cotton Candy. Wow really yeah like you would rather have came in a funnel cake. ooh Yeah that's I. I am not picky so mine is waffles and ice cream. WHO CAN I change my pick Yeta what yeah that so warm waffles with debt ice ice cream inbetween when we get there? That's the first thing I'll do and then we'll have the day we'll go around. All Day and girls go on the rides right for relief. I'll get another one. I will double down on the waffles in ice cream at <unk> nobles tomorrow so if you want to meet me when it opens and when we leave be at the waffle and ice cream stand because that's where all be baby anyway congrats to the winners excited about today's big show by the way I we've got former N._F._l.. quarterback Bruce Gronkowski. He's now teamed up with the guys over at pro football focus. He's in charge of their quarterback evaluations which I think is pretty cool since bruce played quarterback for so along. I just wanted to talk to him about that and about evaluating that position so that's why we have these big show shoe so I bring this guy on about once a year because number one I loved him as a player loved his style of play. He's an awesome guy. His restaurant in Toledo is phenomenal best food ever. If you're ever in that area you don't go there. You're just doing it wrong. He is of of course the Great Bruce Grad Caskey. Hello Bruce what's up. I'm out. I was GONNA say you're still trying to keep those free meals coming. That's why you have me on this show. I I enjoy it. I know next time on paying next time I'm paying I promise but take care of the big offense alignment so it's all good man. What did we have last time? It was like some type of fishing tackle tacos yeah. Oh my Gosh Gosh. I Love Fish Tacos like that because it tastes so good but you're also like you feel like you're getting you're getting your healthy on. You Know Oh exactly well. That's the best thing about it. You're like my trick yourself. You're right. I you know what I'm just seeing some fish tacos good for you but you don't forget all the like the the Coleslaw that's on it. That's May were like mayonnaise and the to pull away a only dressing on it so <hes> but it is man. That's one of my favorites so I had to take care of you though when you rent down so I'm glad I'm glad we could break bread together. It was awesome. It was awesome well. I wanted to bring young because I saw recently. You were part of the crew from P._F.. That wrote <hes> in fulfilling in for Peter King this summer for the the football morning in America. I didn't even know you were with P._F.. Pro Football Focus so once I saw that I wanted to reach out to you and get you on the show at some point. How what did <hes> tell me how it all went down -gratulations yeah? No thanks brother so you know it was a while back you know in March after the season when Sam McVey re stops me to interview me for this thing Q._B.. Job and I went out there. We hit it off. You know we know a lot of the same people we came from the kind of same coaching tree with the Gruden brothers and all that and <hes> hey great meetings with him well. <hes> you know long story short. He went a different direction hired. ZAC Robinson who I played within Cincy in Zach at the time was working for pro football focus <hes> overseeing all their quarterback rating <hes> and when I didn't get the GIG with with the rams you know because I love this media stuff Ross like you you know I love being a part of this. I do a lot on <hes> Siriusxm N._F._l.. Radio did some stuff for N._F._l.. Network is that last year C._B._S.. <HES> and but like with pro football focus I'm like man I have have all these resources in my fingertips. I can watch every every and any game. I want and really see any college player N._F._l.. Player <hes> so I looked into that into that and I hit it off with pro football focus okay and so so what's going to happen during the season as our oversee the quarterback grading <hes> because they have a ton of analysts all around the country and these guys <hes> we have a system of how to great players go. We're grading every play every player every game every snap I mean that's insane. Do the amount of information <hes> so. I'm going to be a part of that. I'm looking forward to because you you know how it is you missed the locker miss being a part of a team and working towards one goal and cause and I just felt that would pro football focus. You know Chris Collins Worth <hes> being you know his company. You know he's been in that locker room. He understands so it was just a really cool environment and and ah so I'm just happy to be a part of it and do some stuff with those guys so <hes>. What does that really mean overseeing the quarterback grading so you know every week <hes> everyone's you? You know there's there's certain guys focus on certain things throughout a game but everyone's go. There's a bunch of guys going through in initially grading each play and that's you know guys looking at the quarterback the receiver the offense a line wind deepak defense the primary coverage die all that and I will be the is that it comes to me last so Sunday night. I'll pray start getting a few of the Games around eight o'clock at night and then I have to to have all the great overseeing and done by Monday around noon so I have to get through about fourteen games in a manner that span and <hes> so it it's already graded you did and I'm just kind of matching up and watching the plays with the grade and making sure the quarterback grade is accurate. You know I might see something that you know I might look and say you know what can't pin that on the quarterback because you know I I've been in that kind of offense and that receiver went to deep or it could be the reverse that quarterback totally miss at throw and we didn't great him appropriately on that so <hes> that's kind of several be doing <hes> on a week to week basis that is awesome and I liked it. They have kind of a cross checker or oversight like that. I remember talking with Neil Hornsby man probably ten years ago after I retired and just talking with him about the concept and my concern was it's not always easy when you're watching other offensive linemen to know what what they're taught or what they were going to do on a certain play so let alone somebody that didn't play. I feel like that would be tough and I've talked with him about it and they've said you know we really we just grade guys on what they tried to do as opposed to trying to figure out what they were supposed to do and so I think that's probably fair because when it comes to mental errors errs on the offensive line. There's really not that many of them. I mean if you're making multiple mental Ariza game. You're really not playing anymore. I mean they're not gonNA. They're not gonNA stand for that. Although I do remember having a G._M.. Tell tell me that you know a guy that P._f.. Graded very very highly you know that he was good for a couple devastating mental errors game where he didn't even he didn't even know who he was supposed to block and a guy would come free free and whatever but obviously I can't know that and I would think maybe the only position maybe secondary but then other than that obviously quarterback is the one where it's more more than anything. It's the mental part of it. So do you grade them on. This guy made the wrong read or is it just when he actually makes the throw ball placement etcetera etcetera yeah not too much on if they made the wrong re because you know you can't say no their system now if I was absolutely sure and I've been in the system before I know the offense he's running you know or maybe it's a protection. Eh You know it's a five-man protection. It's an empty protection and I know that should be on the quarterback right there. That might be a different story but you know we're you know I'm taking into account <hes> their their accuracy. There throws throws you know I mean you can even look at how they're forcing it. In the coverage and man that is not a smart decision right there the situations in the game when it comes down to what kind of <hes> what kind of decisions they're making a key moments and things like that so <hes> you try to just great on on what they're doing on that play not too much. Did they ask you what their coaches town because even if you know Ross if you and I were with another team and we're scouring the player player because he's going to be a free agent this year not a lot of times you you exactly know <hes> he made the wrong read. You know whether it's an offense lineman or <hes> the quarterback <hes> but you're you're Kinda judge. I'm great. I'm on what would you think of his abilities and you know he's GonNa fit in with the new team. I think it's you know it's not super prepared but in a sense you're you're you're. I'm making the read off of our system. How are our system grades players and then I'm taking account what they execute on that specific play yeah and really it isn't any different than people evaluating college tape or N._F._l.? Tape for free agents. You don't even like season scouts or coaches there. They don't always know for sure what the guy's doing so. They're grading him based on what he does so even the the weakness risk or the part about P._F.. That people might say is flawed is that same flaw is inherent in any evaluation process where you're not actually the the guy that coaches that player on that team and even then I can go the other way bruce and I can tell stories about coaches that they thought they were being objective when they were doing the grading but I know for a fact guys that they liked more than others one guy plus and for the exact same thing he'd give another guy a minus for the exact same thing because it's a subjective deal right and that's and that's one of my like pet peeves to like when I and that's why I'm glad how does it they have you know one set of is <hes> looking over the final great because you want it to be accurate. You know Tom Brady. You know you know dirt's pass and we might thank you know what a smart decision. Tom Brady mate. You know not taking the sack right there and destroying their well then you might watch Blake Bortles make the same play and you just automatically assume Oh what an idiot Blake bortles dirty that man he's so dumb he just missed that girl well no like you have to grade it both fair and accurate you know if it was the same and playing the position you know I understand when a quarterback's trying not to take sack just trying to throw the ball away not necessarily. He dismissed that thrill but he's preserving the sack right there and he's being smart about it so whether it's Tom Brady Blake bortles or all the other quarterbacks in between you WANNA make sure it's accurate you know and of course there's you know there's reasons. Why drew brees Tom Brady those guys are always at the top of the list because how smart they play and how accurate they are but you also want to make sure <hes> you're not looking at the name on the back of the Jersey your your your grade on their performance and now and that's Kinda parent how Brady's getting up in age same with drew brees you know so you had it'll really give me a great feel how these games how these guys are playing on the week to week basis acis and that that's what I'm looking forward to yeah? That's awesome. What would you say are the biggest misconceptions of of P._F.? Now that you actually work for them <hes> <hes> you know like the thing that got me when I first started meet with Neil and the thing that I thought was like super cool is getting to know them is man. They're so knowledgeable. I mean some guys that haven't even played the game. You know what I'm talking to them. Like oh man that's yeah. Actually that's a really good point. You know and so I'm I'm having an opportunity to learn from them as well. You know like a lot of teams. They have how many like quality can control guys and things things like that that are breaking down film. I mean that that's pro football focus. They have a bunch of guys that just love the game of to be around the game on a study at when continue to learn and grow from it <hes> and that's what's cool to be a part of you know and that's what I felt being being there is they. You know what these guys whether you know they've played you know one snap in the N._F._l.. or no snaps in the N._F._l.. You know some Wilcox doing stuff for P._F.. And so I it's just cool to see everyone around but also I I guess my biggest take from it. So far has been wow these dues do study it inside and out and no ton about the game and it's like it's just very impressive. You know I it. It's just made me. We believe in their system that much more I love it one of the other questions I wanted to ask you bruce and probably the last question came in the news some point over the summer late June. I I saw where John Robinson. The general manager of the Tennessee Titans was talking about Marcus Mariota and he talked about how Mario to really has to learn to to live to play another down. You know not take shots and throw the ball away and I think about all these guys you know Lamar Jackson Cam Newton Lock R._G.. Three I mean we can go on and on Josh Allen in Buffalo. Hello I guess my question is. Let's say you did get hired as a quarterback coach for for one of these teams. Would you be telling guys you know like Wentz or whoever would you be saying look. You do what you do man you go out and make plays play the way you play or would you say man you really got to learn to live to play another down. As a guy that played ten plus years what would be your advice to these young quarterbacks. That are Kinda trying to navigate that hat yeah. You know it's tough to because I always had the mindset that if it was third and six I had to get it no matter if I die for risk my head my shorter Jon Gruden always you know would would instruct me me that you know you have to preserve your your your head and your rights to you have to protect yourself and that's one thing I learned you now looking back at my career. I wish I would have been a little bit smarter. You know when I had my opportunity opportunity with the raiders that was probably my best opportunity right in the middle of my career fourth fifth year in the League. I was starting to grass offenses and understand what was going on and just understand the N._F._l.. But I- sustained you know a few you injuries and you know and I I'm in that mindset where if I'm talking to Marcus Mariota or you know Carson Wentz look man you're more important to this team longevity wise so if it's thirty five and you're going to throw the go away to live another down do it man we need your more port of this team to be on the field sixteen games out of this year then the miss a few games because you take unnecessary hit now on the same side though to you don't want to take away there grit their determination of what has got them to this level and to this point in their careers of how well they can play so you never WanNa take that out of the player but you also have to coach him the best game trying to start them. Look man make make smart decisions but you're more important to our team the healthier you are <hes> day in and day out so just remember that if you take off in his third and five hell yeah go get that first down but I also don't want you to go you know shoulder <music> soldier with the Middle Linebacker and now you're going to be out three to four weeks and that might cost us a playoff game you know so I always try to struck the young quarterbacks that I want them to play aggressive whether it's throwing the football down the field but yet being being smart with it and the same thing to get outside the pocket making the right decisions on maybe throwing the way the ball away a little bit earlier if you're <hes> Deshaun Watson with the Texans and not taking that unnecessary hit on your legs or your body just throw the ball away and we'll live to play another down. You didn't have to take that unnecessary hit so I'd like my quarterbacks to stay healthy especially. If you're the franchise guy you're more important to the team when you show up week in and week out. Do you think that's something that they just kind of figure out over time. Yeah you know you know how it is made you get in the league and you're just trying to number one. Make a name for yourself number two a lot of US trying to make the team so you have to do whatever you can on each and every play each and every day so I think as you grow and learn and develop more knowledge is being in the N._F._l.. You learn those things the thing Marcus Mariota James Swinson appoint their career where they know it's make or break for them. I mean Tampa Bay and <hes> the Tennessee Titans. They have to take a hard look at this year and say are these is this are is this our future or these are franchise quarterback so if you're those guys clues you're playing your careers online so you have to play an essential with a sense of urgency but at the same time to you have to stay healthy for your team <hes> and I think just continue learn those things as you play more and I think St. Carson Wentz you know he's been through the wringer last couple of years <hes> fighting some some you know tough injuries and you know injuries will happen in the game but Carson has to sit back and think. How can I prevent that you know they're things that could be a little smarter play a little smarter that takes away some of these nasty hits but at the same time to I want you to play aggressive and take those chances down here with a football and use your athletic ability ability but be smart about it or here's what everybody needs to do? You got to follow Bruce on twitter at B.. Grad Caskey five awesome dude husband father eleven year N._F._l.. Vet He's got working for Feth now so it's a great time to be able to follow him and his information and he's got the most phenomenal restaurant in the history of Peiris Burg Ohio. It's called Social Gastro pub no. I'm not just doing this so I get free next time. I'm doing this because I already got free twice. I'm trying to pay you back. Check it out social aw gastro pub dot com great beer selection to by the way Bruce you the man always appreciate the time thanks Grad. Look forward to break bread with your gamma man and I'm looking forward Bruce to football season when can finally take all this knowledge in my big dome and go to bed online dot A._G.. On weekly basis using the Promo Code podcast one to get that glorious fifty percent welcome bonus. It's that easy bed online dot A._G.. And really if you saw the latest N._B._A.. News it's been crazy like the player movement in the N._B._A.. Is like the star player movement in the N._B._A.. Is Crazy now. You get Chris Paul. L. Traded for Russell Westbrook at any rate go to bed online dot A._G.. If you want to change your bet for N._B._A.. Futures and Click on use the Promo Code podcast one to get the fifty percent welcome bonus before before you change your bet from whatever team to the rockets or whatever you think I got a decent amount of news for Friday in mid-july which is pretty cool start with Melvin Gordon which his agent says he is knocking report reports the team until he gets a new contract or unless he's trade to a team that will give him the money that he's looking for so here's what I would say bri number one if you think about sort of Todd Gurley and his knee and what happened there right after the rams gave him that deal you think about Flavian Bell and you know the rather tepid market that he had this off season and even you think about the fact that Melvin Gordon had microfracture surgery back in two thousand sixteen missed four games last year. He is absolutely doing the right thing. He is going in the last year of his deal. It's his fifth year. I think he's made like ten million dollars. This'll be five million and he needs to try to get some more money now and the chargers really don't WanNa play this year without him. The chargers believed they have a chance to be a super bowl team and so- Melvin has leveraged now and and I think is rightfully going to use it now to try to get some new money and a new deal now because frankly really they shouldn't even be able to have the fifth year option year if it were up to me. Rookie contracts would be three years three because frankly there are guys that get fully guaranteed four-year deals that donor that don't deserve the money. You know there's Leonard Fournette. There's other rookies. They don't even deserve to have that fourth year guaranteed. Sometimes I even the third and then conversely there are guys that have earned more more and they've heard and the right to hit the market after their third year you know team could still franchise tag them but they should at least be at that point so I don't blame him flipside. If I'm the chargers I don't think I I don't think so oh. I'm not talking about both sides of my mouth. If I were Melvin Gordon's agents I would hold out if I were the chargers. I'd say I'm sorry Melvin. We're not doing anything you know until you come in and even if when we do here's the deal we're looking at and try to go from there so if both sides go to the Tucker School of thought because if you're the chargers after the microfracture and stuff you you still pay five million with GPS amount of money. You want to see him. Stay healthy and play well this year. You Have Austin eh color. I'm just not breaking the bank. I mean it. It has not proven to be a sound decision to. You pay a running back a lot of money. It just really hasn't so I'm not doing it. If I'm the chargers so if both sides listen and subscribe to the Ross Tucker Football podcast the both know that they're doing doing the right thing and it could be a while because they could both be firmly entrenched in their positions. The other big news isn't really a surprise Houston. Texans Not GonNa hire a AH general manager this year instead split the duties among four executives. This is just weird and this just shows you. They clearly really want to hire nick caserio whose contract I guess expires next February after the season and not to the Texans want and they're willing to wait for him but this is also. It's kind of ironic to me yeah. You have four guys running a franchise no G._M.. Now that there's a new owner it's kind of the inmates running the asylum. Which is the metaphor that Bob McNair used so they have a G._M.? We got five different people running around doing the different jobs. Isn't that interesting that the term that Bob McNair us. I think he said inmates running the prison which is not. I don't think what he meant. It's not really the expression it's in May turning the asylum talking about players at any rate. I don't think it's that big a deal. I don't think the G._M.. Role is that big a deal once the season starts anyway but it just goes you how much goes to show you how much power Bill Bill O'Brien actually has some rookie needs to get to the cardinals drafted Washington State Safety Jalen Thompson in the fifth round of the supplemental draft and Jaguar Sign West Virginia Wide Receiver Marcus Sims. All the raiders gave number twenty four overall pick running back. Josh Jacobs a fully guaranteed for your deal right in this goes back to my story for the athletic where yes N._F._l.. Players can get fully guaranteed contracts. People don't realize that they just have to be willing to negotiate it and make it an important term of the negotiation but now we got the first twenty four dude in the draft all get fully guaranteed for your deals literally nobody else in pro football gets four years fully guaranteed other than guys that have wait for it never actually played pro football or show that that they can play pro football kind of wild if you ask me but good for Josh basically played like very little college football and now he's getting that Marcus Sims and Jalen Thompson I would encourage you to listen to Tuesday's college draft podcast with Dane Burglar. He gave a great breakdown of both those guys especially Jalen Thompson so if you're a cardinal's fan or Jaguar's fan definitely hit up to college draft podcast from this week nights and other news include Bucks Cornerback Ryan Smith suspended for Games for P._D.. Use for N._F._l.. D. Tackle Albert hanes worth is in need of a kidney and the N._F._l.. Hiring to former players Nate Jones interior killings as officials the cornerback. Getting Four Games is always interesting to me because I just don't think of cornerbacks really when I think of P._D.. T._e._D. US you know like when you think P._D.. Usually thinking steroid that using bigger faster I usually thinking bigger people than a corner no word on what he tested positive for I don't I don't even think he's given even the supplement excuse yet but maybe very sad news about hanes worth. He's he's like on dialysis in a hospital. I had no idea suppose the a lot of people have called the number that was available cable and have volunteered. I don't know how that works. I guess you have to be like a match to be able to donate your kidney yeah. I think they have to do some compatibility tests. Yeah there's some type of compatibility tests so but there's a lot of people that said they would they would they were willing to do it so hopefully he finds a match. That's really special those people to do that and I do think it's cool that some former N._F._l.. Guys are GONNA become wraps. I think that's that's good because then hopefully those guys are good talkers and they can talk to players or even talk to the media and just make sure people understand just how hard that job is. It's really really hard. It's a really hard her job by the way speaking of you know what it's like as a player giving examples sending new newsletter email out yesterday so check your inbox from Ross at Ross Tucker Dot Com and if you're not signed up we'll send it back couch the people that didn't open at the first time on Monday. We know people get a lot of emails and people are going away on vacation and Blah Blah Blah so sign up before the resend goes out on Monday. It's really about N._F._l.. Fell players in the off season and taking the next step in life. Maybe like being officials in just something that I witnessed in terms of motivation. I think you'll enjoy it again. You can sign up for that on the homepage at Ross Tucker Dot Com if you just scroll down other than that how about a little Dean Blandino on Monday with some rookie camps scheduled to open before you know it we'll get the latest on the rule changes with Dino Blandino on Monday other than that you can listen to Steve over the weekend on the even money podcast great show how to win betting pro football. I talked to the Modu Ke- girls on the fancy feast on Wednesday Day and let me just say you really need to listen to that even if you only listen to the first couple of minutes when I first talked to them it is worth a listen even for.