Rise of the DAOs with James Duncan
Hello everyone and welcome to this weekend. Crypto episode is part of our guests series and with us today we have James Duncan he is the CO founder of a bridge. James Thank you so much for joining us. Hey thanks for having me really appreciate you reaching out. So James has an interesting background He's He has a degree from Harvard. He's worked managing grants where they theorem foundation. So if you guys want to learn about James's background Bishou hang around until the end. James has done extensive research on details. If I have a question about Dow's I feel like he's the guy to answer it so James. Can you tell us what is he doubt yes absolutely So a Dow from my perspective is really an online organization Stanford Essentially Thomas Organization but I would I would say it's the implementations that exists today look a little bit more like a like a remote online organization and it's a bit of an expensive term it kind of can cover a range of community types or groups of individuals who are coordinating around this comment thing and I would also just like further dig deep into that range. The range would be from like open networks with a theory and Bitcoin. I would say those are housed. Is there anyone who owns those tokens own in share a common asset in common? Good that they have an incentive to promote the value of and build value for and then on the other end would be something more simple like a a small group of people who to vote Collectively on maybe shared funds. That they're putting in for like a trip or something together or Or It's more of the permission Dow types that That you can see in sort of a molecule Aragon Dow stock ecosystems so part of the Dow structure goes back to like traditional corporate structure And then like speaking of of the origins of Dallas. You have very helpful threat on twitter and you mentioned three block post on the theorem Dot Org Block at written by metallic. I think these were also published on the Bitcoin magazine. Which really talks about a decentralized autonomous corporation as a way to automate administrative tasks in in a corporation so lately there's been sort of like less lower end tasks like manufacturing in more administrative task so this is a at least from what I read like an area that Dow's try to make more efficient. So can you tell me a little bit about the background and origins of like where Dow came from? Yeah absolutely and appreciate you taking that. Step BACK I. I can get obsessed with the details. I think so the origin of of the Dow and of Dow's give a brief narratives of May mainly within the context curium What what Dow Religious Affects Human Coordination and It came about in two thousand nine and allowed for humans now coordinate around in online economic system. It's online native. There's no nation state attached to it but it actually holds and is able to send value between individuals for Italic originally a a bitcoin enthusiasts at the magazine than kind of decided that okay. What if we had bitcoin that was able to you know? You're you're able to use tokens to center received those on native and then you could Then confused on top of that and more than compute you have smart smart contracts essentially was the innovation for Theorem which allows you to make more conditional payments and that's all of the basic primitive wouldn't have a doubt is it essentially allows for people to have common access to a similar resource and if that group of people decides by some sort of voting governance process that this resource should be used in in a certain way. Then that's how the smart contracts will execute the will of that community and also. This is also documented if you look at the block posts within a theory in the first three blog posts. Were about the essentials Economists Corporation. It's essentially the talent beginning to dig into the concept of what does a decentralized ecosystem of autonomous actors look like where they can all participate in earning value from a community that is more or less in the cloud that that they're able to both continue value to take value from and there's some sort of incentive system for for that kind of contribution and value dispersal the original. Dow Within The community was in Twenty Sixteen. Came about as a essentials. It held about fourteen percent of all available and Today would be. I believe one hundred and fifty billion dollar fund even at the at the current prices and so we launched in two thousand sixteen with on fifty million dollars raised ten thousand plus participants individuals who are actually participating in a in like the upside as well as the Governance of this Entity and quickly before passing any proposals Was Hacked and this is one of the most dramatic sort of pieces of the history of a theorem with the hard Ford that created their classic on. This hard virk was an ethical. Hartford is extremely contagious. That allowed for Or that that was sponsored because of the hat to recover the funds from those who Who were affected? It's yeah it's a really interesting topic but going back to the to. The root of this is the main thing about like sort of Bitcoin does is is financial empowerment and to some extent what is now enabling is online organizational sovereignty or empowerment so to recap a little bit attack. Route does blog posts in two thousand. Thirteen two thousand fourteen before the Theorem. Ico and then you just explain some background about the Dow in going back to the basis of Adel an organization run by smart contracts. So when I think of Dowie think of code is law. Meaning that it's like rules can be written a book but the they can't really be automatically enforced. What what's your opinion on on code is law With south I'm I'm relatively easily easily. So I kind of like straddle two sides so so I definitely see like Dakota's arguments being interesting invalid into two large degree. Dow's in the point of a theorem in Bitcoin in blockchain is to allow for anyone financial access and the same tooling despite having Despite not having a similar identity system that's tied to a nation state and that allows for a number of communities or individuals billions of people in the world a resource that they fundamentally do not have today and I think that's extremely important at the same time I also see these organizations as Providing increased efficiencies for people. Who want to coordinate who may also have like already have financial accessing bank accounts in the national system and who also are concerned with the SEC or complying to national laws when they are coordinating using these resources. And I think the the statement on sort of quotas. Li- I actually. I have less of us like extremely strong opinion on that and more day Practical I I'd like to see. More of these organizations form implement And and move forward and extremely pragmatic way and do real things in order to keep testing in pushing the boundary. So going back to like the Dow. Were you involved in the community when The theorem hard for cabin. It's actually I was not involved I was At that point eight maybe actually didn't even know about Barium. I probably only heard of Bitcoin at some point because in college either. But yeah but I've I've really become fascinated by doubts since entering to the appearance space and it was like essentially governance and even working with the foundation who I think extremely highly of and Also envious of the job that they hold because they're in a difficult position of needing to be this leader as as well as also meeting to fulfil the ideals of a of a decentralized ecosystems and so creating the opportunity for the ecosystem to organically emerges like a self. Sustaining thing is A. It's a bit of paradox. That they find themselves in looking back at the The hard work. Would you obviously at? The time is very contentious but would you agree now with Like was the move that the foundation made the right move That's a really really good question Because I wasn't there I don't have the strongest opinion again and I know that doesn't make for real but I think I think it was. It was it was likely a the right move likely. A lot of people have the are under the opinion that if it had continued if it had happened it would has actually been like a lethal blow to the network and people would have lost faith in him completely so I think that argument is is Likely holds true interesting actually wasn't nt theme at the time of the Hartford. Because well I guess that was a very intense moments for theorem and especially for Dow's so what was the first comeback of the Dow so in Twenty Seventeen Aragon launched and I believe Dow Stack? I mean they all they also launched I think in I believe their crowd. Funding was in early twenty eighteen. So Erbakan was I am pretty sure one of the earlier projects that had an ICO in two thousand seventeen and the day are in ecosystem. That promotes unstoppable organizations. It is extremely useful like have essentially a doubt framework that is useful for spinning up. Pretty modular organizations have a number of different applications available to them or governance essentially mainly governance second `ISMs and fund management mechanisms for communities to collectively make decisions on on chain. And then in the second would be redoubt. Stock and all stock is a similar framework that they have a user interface that they have a bit simpler and they also are committed to a holographic or holographic consensus where They use a a token model to place. Make an economy around which proposals are most important in order and this is really important for maybe like imagining a daoist scale that has thousands and thousands proposals submitted to it. How do people know which proposals to vote on and so their implementation in their governance system is especially curated toward extremely large organizations though their framework does work for smaller So the two leading Frameworks that I see so those are GonNa Platform for launching like your own. Dow In like discussing use cases for doubts so I guess was the Dow more men of a for profit type of fundraising mechanism as in like the alternative. Ico Yeah exactly. The Dow was It was it was it was an ICO that was intending to invest in take stake into other projects and also earned return so is the original decentralized DC. I guess you think that Legaue Dow civically that implementation hasn't come about until essentially until now with the next venture Dow which is a fork of Medicare and but Aragon announced that they have the framework they haven't implemented as far as I know a dow that is that is of similar focus where you're you're pulling capital and collectively investing so they have the the framework for a crowdfunding doubt but like jumping into one of the reasons why we haven't seen a crowdfunding Dallas because the regulatory environment in the US. Because I guess like can you tell me a little bit about how a Dow falls under securities laws? Yeah absolutely So Dow's are I guess. The original doubt was actually a toll determined to be a security. Those children holders were holding scared by the SEC and it wasn't registered which means that it it could be a target for being fined persecuted essentially by the SEC. So the the issue or the thinking around like securities which is essentially an asset that will aggregate value. Anyone who sort of buys something with the intent to like have that grow in a crew value that that's an investment in that can be more or less determined as security and I'm I'm definitely giving a really broad overview statement here. A lot of people will be like what the accused definitely missing points. But for simplicity's Leave it at that for Dow's in thinking about Dow's insecurity Tokens and making sure that thousand maybe compliant with the SEC remained process around ensuring that compliance is that you are actually working with either managers of the Dow who are able to hold these tokens or accredited investors who are investing in the tokens which requires KYC and that's also contentious issue because that is sort of in some ways. It's against the ideal nature of a autonomous at. Yeah of an autonomous system that allows for anyone to participate. But that's kind of where we are at the moment so so talking about youth cases for owning Dow Tokens Essentially that was the first use case. Rebel crowdfunding It was a I would say it was the security. Would just of buying a token was so cute. Appreciate you can sell it. Basically investing in companies and sell it to make a profit. So what can you tell us about the nonprofit use case? I guess what what? What IS THE FIRST NONPROFIT? Dow the develop absolutely This is also back to your original question of when the Dow comeback while Aragona Mall and Dow stocks were frameworks redoubts. They didn't they weren't still too often. Be Original Dow. The original Dow was found to have a couple small flaws one being that there was no period after voting where people who voted no could exit and take their funds. I'll go ahead and explain. Coup fixed What the second ration- that is. Which is the grant giving that you're describing in February of last year Molly Dow rose and Demean Souleymane. A the Summoner of Dow decided and has been sort of promoting the city of for years that it would be great if everyone who therion could kind of put their money where their mouth is and collect funds and then put funds toward projects that are advancing ecosystem and fruitful and positive ways so molly launched and he actually in order to make. Mollica studied the code basically original Dow and paired that could base down by about two thirds of what it originally was. The original code base was like fifteen hundred lines of code now as five. Hundred lines of code is smaller and that is for the intent to make it much easier to audit and harder to hack And thus far it's gone really really well. There hasn't been a hack on mullet yet and I think it's relatively like you know battle-tested since it's held collectively one point two million dollars as an ecosystem and so the original Malla came out was explicitly funding East two point. Oh another network facing solutions. In projects that will benefit the network. The second fork of that are the first four that was The medical also mentioned that molly gained a lot of traction midst for four months where Ocho leuven metallic the F. in consensus also contributed thousand five thousand each piece and demolished. Dow rose to over a million dollars in value held in its bank and then The Meta cartel then decided in the medical community application focused community who is really conservative mass adoption and making things more usable users native side of that while we have a community We could probably do this as well and make grants for projects that are snap. Location layer on the reason that again. These are grant giving doubts is because that s risk So that you don't have to think about being security because if people are just giving away money and no one's earning money the SEC won't have as much worries to investigate and dig into that. It matters more whenever people start earning money. And there's They're more taxes involved essentially and I think Mohawk dial really set for the I guess the rest of Doubt Development Most styles now are of McDowell and going back to how you mentioned how immune system which is also the founder of Spang chain. He reduced the lines of code. Because there's a statistic. I think it's like thirteen. Bugs are found per every eight hundred lines of code in that really helps reducing the amount of bugs potential bugs for Dow going back to Going to grant giving details. I guess anybody. Can you explain sort of wise? Somebody would want to buy token to essentially give US grants the main. The main reason is if you believe in the ecosystem and you believe in the community and you want to participate in a cutting edge experiment on governance using blockchain in cryptocurrency. So if that is of interest to you I think it's. It's definitely a worthwhile experiment to participate in that first hand knowledge experience. It's it's not necessarily pre all the time in terms of the actual user experience for these things as as people know four boxing but I will say I think the the your system in the community engagement. It's it's definitely starting to shake and and get to a place where these tools are accessible and that's kind of what we are focused on actually a bridge. Essentially there was like a disconnect between companies that benefit from me. Theorem to to develop right all of these gaps in projects. That work theorem the all benefit from the underlying infrastructure. Only I guess like the foundation was actually funding development and this is sort of a way for projects building on him to give back in improve their own products in a way to improve the overall infrastructure. So going back to Milwaukee Cow. I think that's a very important milestone. Can Eat expand a little bit about what the process is in how it works as Adele everything from membership to to the proposal process? How The out? Yeah absolutely so monkhouse. Extremely simple And I think earlier I mentioned that That basis for doubt technologies and I would also say essentially a smart contract is essentially a multi multi serious being a multi signature. Wallet just means that you have multiple Keith. Second signed to send and receive transactions or funds from a particular address that is essentially a contract address in so demonic code base is able to signature wallet. That has voted and so the way it works is that you have a proposal. Form that you fill out submit You must stake some Easter Smith proposal in order to prevent from a bike Spamming of proposals to the Dow and then As a member. You're able to vote. There's also wants a McDowell is launched at the launch there's a proposal period and a grace period editor defined and that defines how long it takes the proposal to pass and the funds to be sent to whatever recipient That proposal determines as being the beneficiary of the of the proposal. So we're talking about proposals that are asked for grant money essentially to do something and so the I guess like going through the user flow. If you want to submit a proposal to get funding you either are down member no-doubt number and you have the more yourself submit. The proposal are also taking some youth to do that. They will. They will receive. That back was the Passed through the submission process. There's a the voting period people can vote in the in the grace period. Those who didn't vote or who voted against the proposal and see that it passes have the opportunity to leave the Dow on rage the function. That has probably been the most famous -ly coined and like named function within the doctrine. Maybe the ecosystem is the rage. Quit option so they are able to reach it and and then the proposal will sort of task. The Dow contract will sign off on sending the funds to the contract defined as the beneficiary when the proposals submitted And that's really the basic process of of what happens in the Dow on the membership proposal is is similar but In a membership proposal the member will ask for it or submit tribute and ask for a number of shares and. This is actually a another point to make. The proposal is submitted and the Dow Sends Funds. But they're actually sending our shares to the Dow and those shares are voting shares. That are one to one between Like the percentage voting as well as the percentage value within the guild bank so in order for the beneficiary to use those shares and use the value. They have to reach with Which then liquidates their shares and turns it into Ether and from Arabic and making moving into their bank account or or maybe whatever other token they see fit in order to fulfil the requirements of the proposal day submitted in for a proposal to you receive funding a two thirds vote. That's yeah that's right. I think so the proposal for it's actually. There's no quorum so proposals within the molly framework the idea's really that if no one disagrees then it should be. You know they've been at passes So it that's also to prevent from a blocker because the democratization process takes two weeks to both for the voting period to be open. It's a one week and then for the grace period. It's another week and so that's the that's by designed so that people who either aren't paying attention they have at least enough time to sort of like peak and check out what's going on before it. They they either are unable to vote or in unable to rage quit That doesn't mean though that it does take a long time so in order for that proposal process not to Lag The there were no quorum parameters into the mall contract and so that's really the term. It's just turned by the number of people who voted as long as there's fifty one percent yes votes on every proposal they will pass says long as there's the fifty one percent vote in that. I guess the receive funding from the people that that said. Yes and the people that reached quit a Contribute to that proposal. That's right and I will say though that often people don't vote on the proposal like often the proposer will vote on the proposal and everyone else will agree to it in the background but they may not actually commit their vote to the Dow because they may be see. It's going to pass. Don't feel the need to necessarily so. It's like fifty one percent of total members for it to pass a no is actually just one percent of the voters so one person could vote and a proposal will pass and this is again to ease the ability for every proposal to have a chance to pass. If a proposal shouldn't pass the members to have a week to determine like to like read the proposal and see Voice their opinion or stated that it should pass and also vote no on the proposal so so if that if that would happen that like only one person voted yes and that was the proposer than it would technically pass. Does that mean the person that says? Yes fully funds to proposal no so Whenever the proposal passes it's triggering the guild bank and this is actually something I should have defined earlier people are becoming members of the Dow they submit tribute and that tribute is deposited into a common pool of resources. And that's the Gilding what they receive for. His positive attributes is a proportional share of the Dow and so every Dow has its own standard for what tribute Kirsch share ratio is but for me. It's one and so whenever proposals past everyone loses a proportional amount of value that that they own within the Dow to fund about proposal. Got It and then can swing a little bit about what happens during the grace period. Can anybody changed their vote or is it like a voting process. Yeah the grace period is actually just To allow for people to leave the Dow. If they don't feel confident in the decisions that are being made that allows them to before the funds are liquidated or withdrawn from the Guild Bank to Retract THEIR OWN Investment Dow. So that they don't so their funds aren't funding a proposal. They don't agree with and I guess moving onto other Dallas. I did want to talk a little bit about maker. Dow that would be like an episode in it of itself to explain like how it works. But I guess from a gist of it. You own maker Token You get to vote on interest rates in in sort of these different things of the Dow. So going back to like types of Douse of of a nonprofit thousand profit Dallas. What what's your opinion on maker Doubt That's been a topic of of make. Your Dow might be a security. So what are your thoughts on this? I think makers I personally like maker. I think that they're doing a lot of awesome things for the Extremely important experiment and also extremely successful might perspective. I actually not as informed on sort of their dow process as probably should be but but I guess I mean it really involves like their maker. Token holders being able to determine the inflation rate for the The interest rate for the a bigger tokens to be to be mentioned essentially and they also receive fees from the ability stability. Thank you yes so yeah I mean to be fair I should. I should be better informed on on the on maker Dow specifically but now I think I think they're doing a decent job there and I think that's one of the organizations Potentially more autonomous in that they have a strong system for comments into structure. That's kind of continuous isn't seen in modern. Mark is really more philanthropic and yeah I definitely love what has done definitely provided a ton of liquidity in this space and then we have things like that allow which is more Of a structured Dow really quickly. Like what are your thoughts on managing incentives for like? What's your opinion on like Wales token wells and like how to avoid of vote manipulation in sort of the Dow structures? Yeah no that's that's an amazing question. I think it's more of A. It's also like an existential question in the ecosystem and because this technology is built to kind of create a new type of economy and a big piece of odd is being able to distribute funds potentially in in a way that that provides access and like a like a healthy amount of wealth to a larger number of individuals. The extent to which that is true is is a little unclear. I would say it's you know. I think like the wealth is definitely still concentrated in a number of individuals and so these kinds of like manipulations from Wales is challenging At the same time I haven't seen firsthand or been deeply informed of stories where they're particularly whales who are kind of greatly manipulating things at the disadvantage of others often. If there would be a will in the Dow I would imagine if you are with oil. Who owns tokens that you also own? Well I guess the the worry there is that they dump essentially right. But are you mean to like Wales them like some of these other? Dow Frameworks that. I'm more familiar with a molecule sure But but I guess it's Yeah I guess. It is the same issue whether it's profit or nonprofit. Yeah Yeah it's similar. I mean the nonprofit. Whales aren't They like it doesn't affect people quite as much. Because you can only take your percentage of tokens and so the only thing that will actually earn you. Prophet is if the entire theme networks goes up so it's essentially just like earn owning. If a whale comes into your grant giving Dow you're still only owed. The percentage of the Tokens that you put in your not owed any of the tokens they added to to the general guilt thing but I also. I really haven't seen a lot of malicious behavior amongst whales in the space like just from my personal experience at least within the Dow Ecosystems. I guess the one way or like something. I've read is Reputation votes dino like if any Dow That uses a reputation vote. Yeah absolutely Dow Stack has a reputation system in and they serve district reputation as well as essentially the value that the Dow Jones to promote successful proposals. It's a little complex. And they have a number of different sort of parameters like. There's a limit number of reputation in the individual can hold and in that way. You can't sort of outweigh others at the same time. The way that their membership forms is much different than the way that Amal is formed in that members of the Dow often don't buy in most numbers the Moscow are required by social contract essentially to buy in With a common amount of youth and and in that process the molecule and you know the members at the mollica skin in the game the Dow Dow are more sort of. They're coming at it with a a angle of philosophy and passion. They wanted like succeed in. May Make something happen when with this decentralized democratic framework essentially so yes the way. The reputation kind of works is I think it's still being sort of ironed out into as to how that would work with a Both the Dow that has Wales but also has minority members Hauer the minority numbers represented on the on the voting proposals if You know empower are they not just completely at the at the will of the larger whales unlikely it would mean that these smaller numbers if they don't like what the whales are doing this you just start their own dow likely yeah like. I met you back at Defcon five Osaka And at the time you had mentioned An LLC Dow which is Like a Dow that could operate in a regulated environment today And I guess this this some examples are venture down and allow So can you tell me a little bit about how a LLC type DOW WORKS IN DISABLED TO OPERATE? Yeah absolutely so The LLC dial is something that I was quite interested then from a curiosity perspective to to what extent do you need to make a legal argument for Dow's as you launch them? I think you know the cat is really out of the bag on these things. Until there's a court case and it makes a precedent but at the moment In the main consideration is limited liability. And so the main thing that you're you're thinking about whenever you're building what is what happens when someone is sued or someone decides to sue the Dow in. Why would someone wants to see the Dow and who is responsible for that liability when the dollar suit and so one of the frameworks that were deeply investigated was a dow that was built within or that had LLC wrapping it that that gave it a legal identity and that would allow for limited liability of the membership as long as it satisfies a number of benchmarks that essentially the the SEC provides for unregistered practice carries and those those benchmarks include things like if the Dow holds more than five million dollars? You can have anonymous membership if it holds Or it it can't hold more than one hundred members or it's potentially consider company Also can't hold more than ten million dollars under management or it's also Essentially considered a public company would have to file for SECURITIES PERMISSIONS BY THE THEY S. That's like there's like some broad Benchmarks but sort of guided the process but now the adventure Dow and I actually had need to catch up with them but believe it is still in that Will allow for some liability of its membership and they're also make sure it's only accredited investors There's quite a contentious Experiment within the space because there are some who feel that this is extremely against the original intent of all of this to be anonymous and or Enda Thomas and allow for anyone to kind of participate. But I do think it's. It's a worthwhile experiment. Yeah and I think For like the whole automatization We we can. We have nonprofits and grant. Taos to experiment with that and keep iterating on Dallas And also think it's great to further the regulated environments around a Dow. You know a dentist Davey. It makes it better organization if it's more efficient than it's worthwhile but there's so many concepts to discuss about. Dallas wraps up our episode if you guys want to learn more about Dow's hopefully have more episodes talking about different types of hopefully get somebody for maker There's a ton of resources link down below but before we wrap up this episode. Jump into James's background. James recently co founded a company called abridged. He's working on building a Dow bought some really exciting stuff So James can you tell us a little bit about your personal background I know you you're a Harvard graduate and then Worked for the foundation. Can you tell us a bit about yourself? Yeah absolutely so I am. I went to Harvard. I studied Earth Science and played rugby there and I've always been really fascinated by larger systems and and abstract concepts as well as human coordination and and really kind of see the work that I'm doing now as being a nicer intersection there. I also had the opportunity to work with the foundation in two thousand eighteen to build out a first iteration grants program and really got the fire going for for funds to be given to projects that rebuilding open source protocols and and and products within the ecosystem and those extremely enriching experience. That really opened. Many many doors for me. following After that I got extremely obsessed with Dow's as well as where blushing being used today and took a couple of months to kind of learn and research my own Helped organize a Dow meet up in Berlin. The foundation and Than in the spring of twenty nine gene was Demo D- by a friend who had also made within the L. A. hearing ago system. I'm Eric Chung who pigmy and was like hey have been working with this Guy James Young Nelson new from La Theorem ecosystem. And we've been building this. You know the smart contracts a state channel thing love to demo. They showed me a demo and I was like. This is the most valuable thing. I've seen in all my time figuring because system as far as what a functional code base and like product handbooks like and those eager excited to get involved in hope. Push the ball forward for for the project which was quickly named abridged and right now our focus Like you said it's Dow bots and really were focused on creating blockchain functionality within common interfaces which means that we are inputting Contract calls using our our wallet that allows for Mobile Access Without a web three provider to transactions within things telegram Chad or potentially soon a facebook. Todd in in other messaging systems and from there we can also build back in that hook up to not only bots messaging systems but but other fronts but on the initial prototype for what we're doing is called signal and this is to allow for anyone to come in and participate in a community of other Dow Think minded people who are largely from the Medicare tell ecosystem and From there you can sort of test. Ideas like hey. I really want to build X. Y. Z. Crypto project and see if the ecosystem or the members of the ecosystem respond positively the membership processing proposal. Process will take the voting period will only be thirty minutes long so it'll be relatively quick to onboard but it will also be rotated quick to vote so This is a again a sort of an experiment. And someone of a prototype but we will be able to get a lot of amazing data and it's really GonNa be exciting thing for the community to be able to have access to something that Should increase voter participation greatly. Not only for Medicare tell but also for the arrogant endow stack communities who also working closely with in The Dow is definitely worth checking out with when talking about user. Experience in in making things happen really fast boarding. You have a few demos Where it's you essentially can vote on proposals. You can add down members right within a telegram community Soaking champion a bit about like. How does the traditional voting and proposal process work on an irregular symbol walked out? How do you vote in that area versus what you're building now? Which is really really user. Centric yeah absolutely. So they'll traditional monarch It you know you have to download Meta mass give to get on your your web browser dot gate to the right page. You may even need to access the contract on drew either scan manually and you can sort of submit proposals from there. I've done before sometimes in the U. is broken but otherwise you. It's actually the guys that Odyssey have done really good job of making it more. User-friendly Dow House it's D. A. U. H. A. U. S. dot club or Dao h h US dot com And this is kind of where all the malla cows live But you do need to have a minimum address and that's really not very user friendly for anyone outside of the ecosystem and there's also a lot of theater apathy there's not high but dissipation rate and so we're thinking that with these chat enable. Dow's where we actually have a wallet built into the ecosystem using the abridged Sek This opens up new possibilities for user engagement That we just haven't seen before Tested at all so excited to kind of get the test going in for the viewers if you WANNA check out what James is working on. He's working on some really cool stuff And you also have a link on Bitcoin which is grant community platform. Work at projects can receive grants for open source work. So can you tell us a little bit about that? Like working viewers find you. Tell me about the coin. Cr In in in matching yeah absolutely Get coins in a really cool Initiative dissonance governance rated with the CSLR Which sunny. Actually I'm thinking what that stands for at the moment. But essentially it's a way for the community that signal based on the number of contributions To particular project for Howie. A coup of money is is distributed in the foundations. Giving bitcoin they'd get. Kony believe Sending five or under twenty five thousand dollars to distribute amongst all of these different projects that are on Bitcoin's grant page and the members of the community thousand plus members of the community Contributed to all of these different projects. And those who were most contributed to by the most number of people will get a higher chunk of that amount that the F. provided for this seal around and so is essentially a way for the community signal. Who's doing good work? And where money should flow with Amigo. System in all of these links down below if you want to support abridged That'll be feeling down below as well because one stay up on. The latest endows should follow chains on twitter. I think you're handles oak. Dunkin that's right it's okay dunk actually just defense okay. Dunk Always posting about the latest endows. I guess that pretty much sums up this episode. James Thank you so much for joining. Us awesome thanks.