3 - The Killer Thorn of Gypsy Rose: Analysis of Murder by Dr. Phil


You're listening to three of the killer. Thorn of gypsy rose analysis of murder by Dr Phil in this episode of our multi part series gypsy rose tells me about her life locked inside a different kind of prison than the one. I'm going to talk to her end today. Now, here's a quick recap to catch you up with what we've covered so far when sheriff's deputies found DD Blanchard's body face down in a pool of blood her daughter gypsy was nowhere to be found in all points. Bulletin was sent out to find the person that had stabbed eighty and apparently kidnapped gypsy gypsy was said to be paralyzed fighting multiple diseases, including cancer, but seventy two hours later gypsy was found the live and it made headlines all over the globe. Gypsy plan charred was found safe shortly after ten this morning in another state gypsy was found in her boyfriend's house in Wisconsin, six hundred miles in three states away from her home in Springfield, Missouri. After a brief standoff, nNcholas Goethe John was in custody. He was charged with first degree murder of DeeDee Blanchard. Then deputies escorted gypsy out. And that was a shocker for everyone because she was walking on her own two feet. My wife Robbins, always after me to remember, my sunscreen. Yes, Robinson, creator of Robin McGraw revelation skin care now, here's what you need to know about sunscreen. The FDA now says that any product claim above SPF fifty is simply an exaggeration. Also, the FDA says that no product is truly waterproof. So be sure to reapply sunscreen, every two hours when you're outdoors to protect your skin, get your SPF fifty cents. Green at Robin McGraw revelation dot com for all you new parents out there who want the best for their kids and are tired of choosing between what's best for you, baby. And what's best for you budget? You have to check out. Hello Bello is a new brand with premium ingredients from Kristen bell. And Dax Shepard that includes diapers wipes shampoo bubble bath. Basically, everything for your baby. Go to hell Avello dot com for a subscription that will. Be delivered straight to your door or go to any wal mart or WalMart dot com to get your Hello bellow. Now gypsies father rod could not believe his eyes. He thought his daughter was paralyzed for life. Just like everyone else. Did I was so happy to see her walk and Suir happy. It was mad had so many different emotions. But that was only one show the aftershock that came next through her father and everyone else for a loop gypsy wasn't kidnapped. Not even close. She was in fact, the prime suspect got her ankles like she walk, and, wow, what is going on in any start a story on Ravel's about her boyfriend, and this and that it didn't take long to realize that you know, if she can walk what else has been ally. All these years, you know, we'll he's ride if that was a lie what else has been alive. Those answers were going to come fast and furious now I say answers, plural because what else was ally. Well, the answer that question is just about everything. DD Blanchard was a pathological liar. Hire who suffered from something that's commonly referred to as much house and center by proxy or affect tissues disorder impose upon another. I've said already that many people regard this as a mental illness including the American psychiatric association, but I disagree. So I'm telling you, I'm probably in the minority the majority thinks, it's a mental illness. I think it is just a form of severe abuse. But what we're talking about here. Whatever you categorize it in is someone who gets another person sick. They either caused them to be sick caused them to be injured or present them as sick or injured one way or another that person that they have control of is either induced to be injured or ill or present it to others as injured or ill. And sometimes it appears that they do it without any form of gain whatsoever. In this case there was plenty of gain. This was. Abuse for cash. This was abuse for secondary gain in the form of money. This was her daughter being a cash cow. And there are no two ways about it. What did he did gypsy was absolutely horrific child abuse are just not big enough words for what she did to this. Young woman Didi bland charred had what either leave was one of the worst cases of Munchhausen's that I've seen and I've been in this field for forty five years. She brainwashed her she drugged her. She coerced her into presenting as though she was paralyzed from muscular dystrophy, and she made it seem so real by forcing her to take strong drugs for illnesses. She never even had such as epilepsy and cancer drugs that mimic the symptoms of the very diseases Didi was telling the world gypsy suffered from. Here's a problem. Gypsy was caught in a perfect storm of bad circumstances. Bad psyche and a greedy sick pathological mother and all against the backdrop of a system that. Failed her miserably. And what made it all? The worst is that her mother had just enough medical training to be dangerous and this is common in Munchausen by proxy situations. The perpetrator often has some history in medical field. They've either work in a doctor's office, or they have some medical training as a nurse's aid or a nurse or a physician's assistant. They know the lingo, they know the symptoms. They know how to talk to the doctors in a way that gives them credibility gives invalidity. And that's exactly what d- d did here. She had worked as a nurse's aide. And we later find out she had acquired books. She had gotten information that told her these are the symptoms. If I want to convince a doctor that she has leukemia found that she had a book, these are the symptoms that you have if you have leukemia, and she knew what side effects, you would have a medication if you took it and didn't need it would cause certain side effects and those. Side effects would mimic a disease. She would tell the doctor gypsy had. So this was very well thought out, and you can imagine the fact that this went on for over twenty years. She had a lot of practice at this. She had a lot of time to get this act down. Now did gypsy. No that she didn't have all these diseases. Did she know that she could walk? Yes. And no did she. No, she didn't have these diseases. She had no way of knowing. She started doing this to her daughter when she was three months old. She said she had sleep apnea. Three months old. She knows nothing at four five six and seven a child only knows what they're told and gypsy never had a chance to compare this to normal. We often say she could get up and walk and often did when her mother wasn't around. But you have to understand her mother has mind control over her. She threatens her punishes her and controls her in every way gypsy. Finally, got to the point where you reach a certain age. There's a natural tendency to start breaking away from your parents. And she did get to the point where she said she had all she could take she says she had had enough of the daily torture. And so she said she took matters into our own hands and recruited her boyfriend to kill her mother. Now, of course, you're going to wait a minute weren't there. A lot of stops on the subway short of killing her mother. Why didn't she tell somebody? Why didn't she say something and speak up with the doctors? And doctors did see through this facade more than once. But they didn't do anything about it. The worst thing could happen to someone's being abused is for it to be discovered by someone in power. And then they hand you right back to the abuser. It's very possible to just get what we refer to sometimes as learned helplessness that you just get a perceptual set to says enough, I can do the doctors aren't gonna help me CPS had been called. They never did anything every time. They got in the know nothing change nothing happened. And her mindset as you will hear when I talked to her is that nobody was going to help her. But herself this wasn't her first choice because she did try to escape on more than one or two attempts after more than one doctor discovered her circumstance. Did he follow up? Call the police or child protective services probably because he's a mandated reporter. But we really don't know what happened. What we do know is no one is helping her they left her, right? There was Didi. She knew if she was ever going to be saved. It would be her that would do the saving. So was this the perfect storm that sealed her mother's fate. Here's what I want you to do. I want you to ask yourself what you would have done in order to do that you have to put yourself in gypsies position. And I know that's difficult to do some. We'll see children that say horrible racist things and their parents are horrible racist. Maybe their parents are KKK. Then you think how could that child say that? But then when you look at their background, it's all they've ever known. No one has ever told him. There's an alternative the people. They look up to say this is just how it is. This is what you think this is what you feel. This is what you believe. And so to condemn the child without taking into account what they have been exposed to is really unfair to the child. And that's why you have to put yourself in gypsies position, psychologically, you have to look at her programming. What was her programming all of her life? She was is related Oliver life. She was tortured all of her life. She was co dependent on her mother Oliver life. She was controlled Oliver life when she tried to escape she was chained to a bed. She was threatened. She was. Starved her mother threatened her with a hammer. This was a child that knew nothing except mother being in control. We're going to have to keep that in mind. And in no way, am I trying to justify vigilante Justice or hacking someone to death? But in order to understand what's going on. You have to look at it through the eyes of the abused. And consider what they were thinking about at the time. And if your first question is why didn't she do a b or c the answer is she did a she did be. She did see and the system failed her miserably. We're gonna talk to gypsum. In order to do that. I'm gonna ask you to take a walk with me to a place that you do not want to go, and it's a women's prison in Missouri. Look I've been in prison countless times in my four decades as forensic psychologist working in the legal system. And every time I go inside. It is always hard not to feel a sense of despair and even intimidation trust Maeve, and we pass through the twenty foot high double fencing topped with razor wire, my heart. Still skips of eat. The moment were buzzed inside the cell block the iron door slam shut behind us and the inmates. No that chilling sound means that their lives are no longer their own from this point forward. I know I get to leave in little while they know they've just lost control of their life. And maybe they should everywhere. We look we see the institutional colors prison. It's always doll said dole. Mix of bays. Army green cinderblock w-. Walls, the beds here about club fed or women's prisons are different for women. These beds are nothing to write home about the inmates sleep on cots, and they're either in six by nine sales there in pods where five or six women are in a small area together and the chillicothe e Correctional Center is fairly new prison. And it is spotless. The warden does a great job. This is a conscientious and caring warden, and he does a great job of keeping the women in his charge as safe as possible. But don't be fooled for one minute. A prison is a prison and there are dangerous women in his prison. And you don't want to be running into these women in a dark alley or turn your back on some of them. Some of these cons are the worst of the worst gangsters arm robbers drug dealers, murderers and gypsy rose is right there among them. She's four feet Levin inches tall. And she doesn't look like she could hurt a fly. But. But she did she was said to have had a mental age of six or seven. But yet she says, she is the one that plan this whole thing. She's the one that got all the materials together. She got the knife. She got the glove. She got the duct tape. She got the close to him. When he first met them at the movie, she made all the arrangements. She put everything in order. So that seems resourceful. Are you? Dr phil. To meet you. We're here today. So you can meet her and listen to her very first at flu interview from behind bars, and you're going to get to know her you're gonna learn her feelings about why she did what she did. And how she feels about being where she is. And as I say, I want you to keep in mind as you listen to this. Is there an argument that maybe there's some mitigation here for what she did because she was a victim as well as perpetrate I'll leave that up to you. But I think you're going to find this very very interesting now, I wanna comment you're going to hear her voice, and it's pretty squeaky and pretty small, and it may seem like she's trying to sound childlike. I didn't get that impression. She's had her salivary glands removed. She's had surgery on her office. I think she has been infantilized. So she does function at a younger. Age than she actually is. But I think some of this is visible, but I just have to tell you this is the most revealing heartbreaking interviews I've ever done, and it starts right now gypsy thanks for talking to me. You say your little nervous. Tell me why. Exciting. Exciting is different than nervous. I guess they're kind of the same. Did you want to do this today? Did you are talking to me the wife? I wanted a chance to explain my life to you. And hopefully, maybe get some good advice from you. And really tell people how I'm doing. Now as toback bay is. I'm looking at gypsy rose. I'm struck at how healthy and vibrant gypsy is today compared to how she looked in the pictures that you may have seen into media or that you've seen on our website because there she certainly looked ill. She certainly look slide. Head was shaved teeth. We're gone. She was hunched over just a slight young woman with a shaved head. So she looked like she did have cancer holds in her mouth from missing teeth and annot it's an odd thing to say, but she seems to be thriving behind bars and her hair's grown out. She's eating three square meals a day. She's gay. Gained nearly thirty pounds, and she's actually very attractive young woman, and she serving ten year sentence after she sensationally walked into court, and how to plead deal, and he's thriving here that doesn't seem so odd when you realize for the first time in her life nobody's pumping poison into her stomach through a feeding tube. Nobody subjecting her unnecessary surgeries. Nobody's overmedicating her. Nobody's doing anything to make her look on the verge of death. They're just leaving her alone in letting her body repair itself. So she really is thriving because of what is not being done to her can fade the felony of murder in the second degree. The you belong here. Should you be in this prison? So we are all I have gained feelings about that believe firmly that no matter what murders not okay, but the same time. I don't believe I deserve as many years. Which your mother is dead. And she was murdered and you were involved, and but for you initiating the sequence of events she would still be alive. So in that sense, you are responsible for her death. And that's why you took the plea deal. Right. What would be adjusted punishment? For. I'm not really certain. I do believe that I do deserve spent some time in prison for that. Crying. But also, I understand why it happened. And I don't believe had I'm in the right place to get the help that. I mean or you glad you're mother's did. No, sir. I'm glad that I'm out of that situation. But I'm not I'm not heavy. She said, what did you what your mother did at the time at the time? I knew that I was being abused. But I didn't know exactly what kind of abuse. It was I just knew that. I wasn't allowed to do a live things. And my mother was the reason she would force me to be in a wheelchair and for doctors appointments that I didn't need and I just wanted that life to stop. So what you've just heard gypsy say is she knew she didn't have to be in a wheelchair to go to these doctors appointments. But there was nothing. She could do about it. Her mother had absolute control over. She was the jailer gypsy was the prisoner. And you do what your told? And she was told you get an wheelchair you keep your mouth shut. And she rolled her in. So also, we never wanted her dead. I just wanted that life to stop that life to be the White House living. I don't know you were in the bathroom. Correct. And you could hear her screaming. So you know that she suffered. I don't like to think about it. But I know alternately I know that it was painful. At that time not now as you sit here now. But at that time did you want her to suffer? But did he did suffer? She suffered until her final breath. It was a death by seventeen stab wounds, and I've seen the crime Saint pictures. It was brutal. And it was bloody. There is no question in my mind that gypsy did want revenge, and this was vigilante Justice. And she appointed herself as judge jury executioner. The question is why did she perceive any options whatsoever? And I have to tell you that I've talked to a lot of my colleagues in both the psychological arena and the legal arena. And there are those that have put forth the theory that this was a form of self-defence. Now legally, that's generally reserved for situations where your life is in danger at the moment, it's not reserved for someone who's. Methodically killing you across time. The legal sense says that you would then have opportunities to leave. Right. I mean, you would have other solutions you could pick up the phone and call for help you could go to the neighbor's house. You could tell a doctor. But there are those that say this was a special circumstance where you have to get into her state of mind from which there was no exit those in power had discovered what happened to her and did nothing. Doctors had said this mother is not a reliable historian. She is making this up. She is making this daughter sick. This is much Howson's by proxy. And this is just horrid and did nothing somebody knew about it because they call child protective services on three different occasions, and they came out and interviewed Didi and gypsy they believed eighty when she said she's intellectually challenged, and she can't really communicate. So they. They took her word for it. So again, it's like a thority have been notified and they've sided with my mother. Nobody's coming to help me. I ran away. She came and got me doctor saw what was going on. They didn't help child protective services came. They didn't take me away. I'm left right here. I don't have alternatives and based on what she's doing. She is going to kill me. How many more surgeries can I go through is she going to start amputating my legs. I mean, she gonna find some quack. That's I mean what what's going to happen. They took out her salivary glands for no good reason. And the question comes how do you find a doctor to do unnecessary surgery? Well, I've already said you get a mother that does her homework, and she presents symptomology, and she finds a doctor that believes it, and maybe it's not the first doctor the second or third of the fourth of fifth, but they Dr hop until they do it because these people are obsessed. They don't stop until. They get what they want and the sicker the child the more admiration, they get because the more of a martyr they become and so they can't stop that child has to be sicker. So they are the bigger hero. So I do that. If a doctor wouldn't give her the results that she wanted were say what she wanted them to say. She would switch to a different doctor believe because what was happening gypsy was not immediate and imminent that it was still self defense because in her mind there was no alternative. Now. They could have thrown the book at gipsy. She could have been sent to prison for life, but hair the court recognized that she was victim as well as perpetrator and sentenced her only to the minimum ten years because of the mitigating circumstances. But the judge did not by the self defense theory because had the judge to self defense theory. He might have just walked her with no penalty whatsoever or put her in a psychiatric Silmi for period of time in determinant Joshi had got to a level adjustment function outside and let her go. That is not what hap-. And I can tell you having been trained in forensic psychology. You have to answer some questions did she know right from wrong. The answer the parents in the court's view was yes. And did she have the ability to not do what she did in the answer wishes that comes down to the difference between the air resistible impulse versus the impulse not resistant made of it's an irresistible impulse that you had no ability to stop no break to pump. Then that's one situation versus having an impulse that. You just choose not to resist those are two very different circumstances in the eyes of the court. So I asked her about this about the fact that the judge didn't buy the self defense theory. Here's what she said at some level. You think what you did is justified? Justifies murder. I think that abuse. Should be punished by prison. But on one hand, it'd be looked at his self defense. On one hand. She was Dyson you up girl. Hemi surgeries. Did you? Crew twenty. I'm pretty sure thirty is. I had multiple I muscle surgeries, multiple leg surgeries, multiple throat surgeries. I don't have salivary glands not these anymore. His they were removed. Sharper knives. You got cut open. You got parts taken out to you. You got hacked up. You got poisoned. You got your childhood was stolen from you. Your adolescence was stolen from you. Your teen years were stolen from you. I'm trying to take the high road. And I found my faith while I've been in here. I've always been a person of religion. But. I have to pray to forgive my mother. But right now, the hardest thing is to forgive myself. I have so much guilt. It's a good sign that she says that she has guilt because that means that the believe that that she does have empathy. She says she has to pray to forgive her mother. But the hardest thing is to forgive herself. So she does feel guilt. And I want you to go back in your mind for a moment and think about your first childhood our minds Jenner record happy occasions as our first memories. But gypsies first memory, you have to know that it's anything. What's the earliest thing? You remember in your childhood? We all have first memories. What's yours? First memory would be in the hospital. And I remember having a surgery done to my is where they had to put a patch over my eyes. That would be my earliest memory. How many like three or four going to school at never been the school ever? Go to go to kindergarten pre K. Do you remember playing in the backyard with the children? With my cousins think about that for a moment she remembers playing outside with her cousins. But then her mother took that away from her. It's actually worse than if she had never been allowed to play outside because she would have had nothing to compare it to I've often talked to people that have lost their side compared to people that have never had their site. And they have a very different reaction to their blindness. And those that had it and lost it it's often more painful for them than those who have never had their site. Oftentimes, those that have never had their site will say, they don't necessarily want it. Whereas those that have had it. It's more painful to have lost it and here, she had a taste. She has a memory of the wind blowing through her hair and running in the yard, and that sort of thing, but then it was snatched away from her, and and that's very different. And there's a part of the Brian called the middle in the. Migdal is a recorder that really records trauma in our lives. It's just part of the brain that records, those things that have heard us, whether it psychological, physical, or whatever is just like a video audio recording in our brain that retains those things, and that's why it plays a part in PTSD, and I sit there and think about thirty surgeries and days and days of nausea with poisonous things being pumped into her stomach and her teeth rotting and falling out, and I just wonder if we could plug into her Migdal and project that onto a screen and see what's going on inside her head how we would feel. I suspect it would scare the hell out of us. If we could see what movie was playing in her hand. I couldn't I was to have any more friends. You were allowed to have no friends. Okay. What was your explanation because you would look out the window and see children playing right? Did you want to go play? Did did you say so I would want to play an axe? Mom, if I could go play outside make a friend and like it's too dangerous. You have to say in here. Go play with your Barbie doll. And so my stuck animals became my friend. What was dangerous about it? I just did as my mom told me to show your four or five and you see children playing side you want wanna go play. And she says you can't go to dangerous and four five don't really know. What that means? You just know you can't go. Now at this point. You're walking around the house running around the house running. Gypsy? Always did what her mother told her because she lived by the phrase mother knows best. She thought her mother was her best friend and always had her back. Now, she thought that because her mother was really, well, she was her only friend. Remember, the number one tool of the abuser of said it in the first two episodes. We were talking about is 'isolation. So her mother cut everything from the outside world out of her life. We always tell our children if you're in trouble, if you're scared if you're lost if somebody's bothering you, what do you do you find an adult, right? And who are the adults that you looked to in your life that you trust? The most go to firemen firemen will help you go to your mother, go to your father, and when one of those with that assigned trust in thority, violates it. That's the worst of all, isn't it? I mean, it's worse than to some friend betraying you because it's just built in to our. Value system that if you can't trust your own mother who can you trust? So we say, you're this was not just her best friend. It was her only friend. It's her mother you figure. Yeah. You're mother's got your back always. But in this case she used that trust to feather her own nest. You guys all know? I think it's important to have a life plan. That includes insurance and ethos makes getting it really easy with ethos. You can get covered in ten minutes online and sign up right from your phone know pesky paperwork pushy salespeople ethos treats, you like a person not a risk. They make sure you have the right policy for your lifestyle in budget. Insure your laugh today by going to ethos life dot com slash fill to apply online insuring your life and providing your family with financial security has never been easier. And it's very important. That's e t h o s life dot com slash Phil. And your ten minutes away from your estimated rate. Make sure your family's future is safe. No matter what you'll really be glad you did. Kevin up fast may twelfth is mother's day. And this is a very special day in our house. Just like, I'm sure it is in yours. My wife were been says that her mother taught her to walk with grace and dignity on the good days and the bad Robbins, mom whose name was Georgia inspires Robbins. Message to women everywhere to take the best care of themselves possible. And that's why she created her Robin McGraw revelation skin care collection for your mother's day gift. The new Her Royal Highness gift bag collection contains seven luxury products, including Robbins, brand new dark spot corrector, call to the point her new poor perfect her called poor tiny me these treats for mom are beautifully. Presented in a Robin's. Egg blue case that's just perfect for travel. So give your mom the Royal treatment. This mother's day with Robin. Her Royal Highness gift bag collection. Order it now in time for mother's day may twelve from Robin McGraw revelation dot com. It's Robin McGraw revelation dot com. If you do she'll be happy with me, then I'll have a good mother stand. Hey, we all painfully know getting into debt is easy. Getting out his hard, thankfully, there's upstart dot com. The revolutionary lending platform that offers smarter interest rates to help you pay off high interest credit card debt upstart believes, you're more than just your credit score. They reward you based on your education and job history in the form of smarter interest rates. They make fast simple and easy to check your rate, and it won't affect your credit score once approve most people get their funds the next day. So free yourself from high interest credit card debt by consolidating everything into one payment. With upstart see why upstart is ranked number one in her category with over three hundred businesses on trust. Goad upstart dot com slash analysis to find out how low your upstart rate is and it only takes a few minutes, and it will not affect your credit score. That's up. Dot com slash analysis. Now, here's gypsies attorney, Mike Stanfield and psychiatrists Mark Feldman who studies much housing center. I don't think calling gypsies sheltered would do Justice daughter was an Esa hostage Dedi betray gypsy horribly betrayed her. And like I said, I take no pleasure in speaking ill someone that's passed. But that woman I'm sorry is she just was a sorry excuse for a mother. And when you look at everything she did to this innocent child bestest sorry excuse for human being. I'm sorry. I don't wish her dad. I absolutely do not. I think she should have been held accountable, but not hacked to death. But as I said, I don't think she was mentally ill. I think she was just a terrible abuser. And she's the one who should have been sent to prison for everything she did gypsy. But yet here's gypsy in prison. She crippled you for years. She kept you in a wheelchair. She kept. You wanna feeding to? She got all of these. Medications that you were on and good Lord. It's staggering. She had you diagnosed with asthma hyperventilation epilepsy. Hearing and vision impairment, GI reflux put you on a feeding too much dystrophy quadriplegia mild mental retardation as she called it. A Nimia allergies leukemia incontinence, lung disease, heart disease, heart murmur, all of these things they had you on pages and pages of medications, many of which have side effects that mimic the diseases that she said you had. So she's giving you medications that cause some of the the slowing of the nerve impulses at cetera that would mimic cerebral palsy or muscular dystrophy or some of the diseases that she reported. So if someone's not suspect, they go, well, you know, there's a little I can see where this being the early stages or something it wouldn't be a red flag. If they check something you ring set up these things could cause you to mimic these diseases. Why would she do that to you? I don't know. Well, I know data may gypsy sick on purpose. We talked about that before. When you hear the details. It will make your blood boil. We're back with our exclusive interview with gypsy rose Blanchard behind bars. Now, she was born Blanchard. But her mother remember added an e so she would have a little extra flare to her name a speculate. That's why she did it maybe she was hiding from something. I don't know think for a minute about how you might be a bit squeamish or even terrified when you go into the hospital for a minor operation. Now magin how bad it must have been for little gypsy in the twenty four years. She lived with her mother Didi gypsy was literally cut up from dozens of major surgeries every single one of them unnecessary, and that doesn't count all of the pokes and prods and biopsies and blood studies and needles. And invest not bad enough. Now, her mother is telling her she has cancer. He had been told you Kimia rights, and she said, let's shave your head because it's gonna fall out will at least keep it even. But you now know she wanted you look like cancer patient. She warp you. She wore personality. She warp your mind. She worked here. More compass. In the beginning s and drew my life. Yes. In trying to change that she taught me how to be good liar. A very good liar without any conscious. And I'm changing. I'm trying to be good person. Now, I don't want to be like my mother and nothing like her if anything it's a trick too much now. Like is that she is a co conspirator that her mother had co opted her into gather, they were the fraud. It's like I say when I'm talking to child has been molested in childhood they feel guilty because they were involved they feel guilty because they participated in. They sometimes tell me they feel guilty because there were times that they actually enjoyed it. And so they feel bad and they feel guilty. And always tell him the same thing. I say you had zero accountability for what happened to us a child and one hundred percent responsibility for what you do about it now. So I don't hold gypsy accountable for what her mother coerced and brainwashed her and controlled her into doing as a child, and she is being held accountable for it now in prison, but do I hold her responsible for not standing up in that doctor's office against this jailer mother that has this psychological power and control over her. No, I don't I don't think child has the ab-. Ability to do that knowing that she's then going to go home with that woman behind closed doors, and God only knows what's going to happen to her. Now, I know of explain much housing by proxy, but it's pretty hard to wrap your head around. So why would d- do such despicable things to our own flesh and blood, frankly, we don't know we don't know what causes much houses by proxy, even those that consider it a mental illness. Don't know what's the causation. There doesn't seem to be a big genetic component pass from generation generations. We just really don't know what the pro Drome will is what leads up to it. What triggers it? We just really don't know. It's usually women rather than men, but we don't know what causes it, and it's a real baffling situation because sometimes it happens apparently without any external rewards. That's not a puzzle in this case because there was lots of external rewards here. There was cash there was a. Attention. There was admiration. There was hero worshipped. She was a martyr. So there was lots of secondary gain for her here. But whether you consider it, mental illness or just an abuser. We really don't know what causes it. And I wish I could tell you more. But we simply don't know. And I would just be speculating, and I don't think that's in anybody's best interest. What's important is that you look for the signs and know how to spot it when it occurs. She certainly got all different kinds of currency by making her daughter suffer such misery. But the main thing was she was a very, greedy woman and she wanted easy money. Our money Wayman are the appearance of a long financial fraud scheme. That's Jim are not the sheriff in Greene county, Missouri. He says Didi was running a big scam off a gypsies fake illnesses that seems to be an understatement. I mean, do the math add up the cost of dozens of surgeries expensive medications, the monthly disability checks, and it comes to hundreds of thousands of dollars in. Vermont assistance when it's a six figure fraud, not to shy from the million dollar, Mark. And guess who paid for tax payers pay for it in spades? The woman ripped off tax dollars to support her scam for nearly a quarter of a century. And that's only what the government shelled out Didi also do private charities to give her and gypsy free vacations helicopter rides to hospitals for emergencies. She got tens of thousands of dollars in tax deductible. Donations from good Samaritans that could ill afford it. I'm sure they just are moved in their heart to give it to her. Did you understand that you being sick was necessary to keep up what she built? I mean were you getting money for that? Because you got a house from habitat for humanity. You got donations. You got different things for people for being sick. So that was a source of income for her, right? And I had no idea that I was part of that you know, that you were a cash cow. You didn't know that? She was converting your illness into sympathy, and donations and that sort of thing. Why do you think she did? I ask myself that all the time. I just don't understand. I'm somebody can do this to their child their child that they're supposed to protect an love not use them as a cash cow in use them for their own means. She loved you, always younger. I thought that. And then when I found out the truth. I'm like, I didn't know this woman at all that I everything that she ever told me was a lie. So how can I honestly believe her whenever she told me she loved me? This woman takes his innocent defenseless child. Isolates are the number one tool of the abuser is 'isolation to abuse them when you have to isolate them because they're around friends family church members, community members that will step in and go. Hey, wait. That you should let them do that to you. They can't get away with too late you, so then they can kind of be in your ear saying, you're not very smart. You're really sick it in this wheelchair. Get on his feeding to. I'm your mother. Trust me. Trust me. Trust me, talk to you buddy else. Talk to me. Listen to me they program you for it class. Couldn't have any friends correspondent. Of course, she might on impulse chaired run across the field. I wish I would have been what happens there. Somebody donated money says skids running across the field. And our whole house of cards comes something. Like, I said d started construction of that house of cards when gypsy was just barely three months old when she claims she had sleep apnea needed where heart monitor at night. See it's important for her to have paraphernalia. She has to have something other people can see. So she's wearing a heart monitor where she's on a Walker or she's in a wheelchair. Then she has these external signs to show people that she sick mean just to say, you know, my daughter's sick she has to have the shaved head. She has to be a Macy ated. She has to have the feeding tube the Walker the wheelchair all of those things that look medical 'cause that sales the scam. There's a point at which you got put it a wheelchair and you were seven years old, correct? Why did she tell you? We're going into wheelchair. I'll go get into a motorcycle. It's getting my knee. And then we'd the hospital, and then told me that the doctor gave her a wheelchair, and I have to be in a wheelchair. Now. Forever forever. Did you know that you could walk? I could feel my legs. And I knew that I could walk, but it slowly started being like using a Walker. And then after that motorcycle accident put in the wheelchair put you wheelchair for skid knee. Yes, sir. Would you set down in wheelchair? Did you know you could walk when you sit down, Richard. But you use the wheelchair. Anyway. She had me use a Walker before the wheelchair before the motorcycle accident before the wheelchair. She had you using Walker. Why did she tell you had to be on a Walker that I had muscular dystrophy? Did you feel any different the day before you got the Walker the day? You did have the Walker. You were able to run around. Chess you were just normal like you'd always been. But just one day here you have start using this. And would you forget to get it and run into the kitchen time fat forget to grab it. And then go to walk, and then my mom would catch me any like use your Walker and Oscar did you ever ask her? Why if you could walk okay that you needed to use it? She just told you you had disease. When you woke up in the morning and got out of bed. Did you get up without the Walker? I use the Walker his mother Mamie is it every time. I went to stand up. The motorcycle accident happens. Were you hurt badly? Or did you get your name? Helen, were you in that wheelchair? I wanna say from nineteen ninety nine to two thousand fifteen. Well, think about if that's twenty years more than three quarters of her young life wasted in wheelchair. And she was with you all the time. Pressel bushman. And did she tell you when you went out that you were to stay in the wheelchair? Also, the sad thing is gypsy always knew that she could really walk. But her mother convinced her that it was not in her best interest that she would crush her spine if she got up and walked around she just couldn't walk around anybody else. And she knew if she did there would be held to pay could she take the risks? She didn't want to risk her mother's wrath. That's for sure when she wasn't around. She was in the shower. She was in the bathtub where she was sleeping your way. Did you get up and walk secretly? Yes there. So you would walk around the house when she didn't know it. But when she got up, she could get back into tear. Did she ever catch you walk? She got a couple of times. What did she do? She got so upset with me. She would punish me so bad. Like, she started hitting news coathanger and telling me all kinds of main things and she so angry at me. She would tell me that she wished she had an abortion when she had the chance that I ruined her life that I have no idea how hard it is to keep up everything. She built. Didi really up the game. She told the doctors that gypsy quit eating because she just couldn't I gesture food now if she can pull this off this is a big one, you said she needed this paraphernalia. These medical apparatus around Didi somehow convinced them to implant a feeding tube. Now, this is not a pleasant procedure. Not at all in not every doctor would buy into this. So she would Dr hop, and this is again how the system led her down. She would go to one doctor. He'd say no, she goes to the doctor. She would say, no, she go nother doctor until finally she takes her in there. And of course, doesn't feed her. So she looks emaciated she looks malnourished. And she says look at her. I mean she's wasting away because she can't keep anything down. I've got to get her nourishment. We've got to have a feeding tube. And finally, somebody worried that if she gets so. Macy's added and become so dehydrated dinner vascular system will collapse and she could be in real danger. So somebody says, well, we better get a feeding tube in there and ask she's got it. And that is very validating. Did she tell you why I know that I spent about six months in the hospital. My mother told the doctors that I couldn't eat that I stopped eating so they put temporary feeding to in my nose, and they weren't something more permanent. So they put a permanent feeding tube in juice because she said you Easter everybody ask you, sir. You told me the new drop some weight chop some way. How did you drop weight? I really don't know. I know that the medication that I was on was making office. But I could eat just fine. The listen closely to what gypsies about to say she so much sharper now and her use of complex sentences demonstrates, she has an intellect that is beyond someone who never made it past sixth grade in the way, you'll notice this is listen to the complexity ever sentences listen to the number of words in her sentences. She supposedly second grade education at the most and people that are reading in a fifth grade level, they tend to use short sentences and simple words listened to the complexities of what she's talking about here. So you go on his fading tube. She fed through the tube on full follicles, route looking back are you suspect as to what she might have been putting to Paul's pull curiosity because I don't know the names of the medications. I was on could she have been poisoning you in some way to keep you sickly. Could she have been overmedicating you to keep you week it? She also possibility you were diagnosed with epilepsy about this time as well. Right. And so they started giving you textile and it caused your teeth to crumble, did, you know, what was happening at the time. Now, I get in. I just didn't understand why might he was crumbling. Why my teeth are falling out I had to have extracted. I just knew I was losing teeth. Trigger tall is a very powerful anti-seizure drug with potential side effects that are much worse than crumbling t-. Long-term use could cause irreversible liver damage doubt. I'm talking about this. If you take the medication when you don't need it. Tekere tall is a wonderful medication. If you're subject to seizures and you needed, but then it has to be monitored and taken responsibly. It can be a great medication. But if you don't need it. And so it doesn't interact with your body the way that it would if you did need it, you can have problems with side effects. But by DD yardstick that could be a good thing. She had a medicine cabinet full of drugs in on the station's going in for seizures, or whatever she would give her some drugs that would make our have the symptoms of whatever she's going in and telling him she had she put over Jalen her mouth to make doctors thing that our saliva glands for producing too much saliva. She knew. The terminology. Gypsy appear to have certain Sampson's by giving her certain medications. She was pretty slick, but you know, now you didn't have epilepsy. When you went to see doctors. Did she tell you what to say? Did she tell you what not? I couldn't speak during a doctor's appointment that it would just solely be her. She told me, you know, sit in the wheelchair plate with your Barbie dolls. And let me talk and don't interrupt this adult conversation, so children can't get involved in adult conversation and this continued on even into my twenties late teens twenties. She was still telling me that private practice. There would never be a time that there would be twelve thirteen fourteen fifteen sixteen seventeen euro person in my office that I would not ask them a question. So you had to be asked questions directly weathered acts like how how I was doing today and our say fine, you know. But there was never a time that the doctor acts me anything about my medical problem didn't ask you anything about your medical history. Or if you were. Experiencing the symptom. She was reporting to him or her doctors lever accent. My mother told the doctors that I was mentally incompetent. Therefore, they thought she won't know she's talking about she's got the mind of like a a child mentioned something earlier about learned helplessness. And you know, this is a concept that was set forth by Martin EP Seligman and learned helplessness is a state of mind where you just can no longer learn that you can be helped even if a solution is presented to you. You have long since given up on hope of anything being able to help you you've gotten to the point where you say, I'm here forever. Nothing's ever gonna help me. Nobody's ever going to help me. So you stop looking for solutions. And at that point, your data window shuts down even if somebody brings you fix your mind simply doesn't process. Yes, it because you've long since given up hope that anything is going to help you think about going through twenty out of almost twenty four years being cut up shot up made sick controlled and dominated. And nobody helps you even when they know that very well could be something that she was in and out of are on the brink of. We know that wasn't where she wound up because she did grasp solution. Thought she won't know she's talking about. She's got the minded like a a child until you that that I had the mind never child. Yes shows. Did you tell you that you were in electorally challenged? Tell me what she said to you about that. How did she explain it to you this like a medical term for everything that was wrong? And every reason she game issues the medical term. So she news that I had microcephaly small head that my brain didn't develop. Right. And I'm not I don't have that maturity, I'll never mature passed a six year olds level Shusha tells you the two limited intellectually, she tells you that you have muscular dystrophy, she tells you that you're not to speak when you go to the doctor did you ever say her? There's nothing wrong with me. Now you saw Dr in. In New Orleans. That did a muscle biopsy on you. Check for muscular dystrophy. Now a muscle biopsy. From us your dystrophy is very painful procedure. This car. They strip muscle from your. Do you? Remember that happening? I remember the day that I wouldn't when in for surgery. I remember having a cut on my leg on my thigh. Did you ever know what the results were? She didn't tell you. What are you know now about that? Came back normal. And she knew that I think that she did know that will gave her the report we we have the report. I mean, you know, now that she had the report that it was normal. So she just quit seeing him where what gypsy says it when the muscular dystrophy tests came back normal. Her mother was livid livid what sick things are going on in his mother's mind. Normally would be ecstatic that it oughta was normal. But we know this isn't a normal. Mom. So now Didi go shopping for a new doctor she takes gypsy to a well respected neurologist. Dr Bernardo flasher Stein, considered to be one of the best nurse specialist in the country. But the good doctor didn't tell Didi what she wanted to here. In fact, he caught the scammy spider weaving her tangle web allies, he called her out. He smelled a rat. Right up front because he knew what he was doing. Now. A lot comes tumbling down at this point. Right because you do talk to him. He does. Talk to you. He has you stand up. Right. Where was your mother at this point soles inside the room with you? He. Held my hands. And I put some weight on my legs. And I think that gave him the inkling that this girl could walk this girl paralysed, she has muscle strength. React to that. He did not like him whatsoever. She was like, I'm not even bringing you back to see him. I'm switching doctors. This is not a good historian. She's not reporting the history accurately, he says, quote, analyzing all the facts, there's a strong possibility of much housing by proxy. So he says there's a good chance that this mother is making this child sick on purpose. For her. Oh reason or purpose her own gain. He wrote that down. He talked to another doctor. You had seen before said I found nothing wrong with her the muscular dystrophy test. He writes down much Howson's by proxy. This mother is not to be trusted. What happened from that? Nothing ever came of it. It didn't stop. Nobody said anything. Nothing was done. Nothing was done. Can you imagine what gypsy singing at this point? I told you that doctors discovered it and did nothing. This is one of the things that I'm talking about. She thought for a moment. My mom's busted, I mean, I'm saved. So she gets her hopes up, and then nothing is done. And I'm not criticizing Dr flasher stain here because he's mandated reporter all he can do is report it down the line. And then what happens to it after that? He's not policing these things all he can do is report it, and it went into his file, and I have no doubt that he reported this and she's for a moment. She's bested. This is where I get so frustrated with the system failing. I cannot believe all of this good diagnostics all of this was done. And in nothing comes of it. They get into the hands of a top professional heap penetrates this scam. He sees it. He reports it and in the system just drops the ball. How does that happen? Now. Let's go down a hypothetical highway for a minute here. Assumed eighty was still alive. What would she have done by? Now, I can tell you. She was running out of surgeries. So what would she have done next? Would she have found someone to amputate a limb? And you say we'll how would she do that? Would she have used turn ick it which she had cut off circulation until something got in trouble? I mean who knows if you have much housing center by proxy, you'll find a way if she was still alive with gypsy still have her arms and legs. I don't know this poor girl was let down so many times her mother the healthcare system. And now she's about to be trampled by powerful government agency gypsy rose thought for a brief moment, she could finally break free from her wheelchair prison, this nerve specialist. Hold her. She. He doesn't have muster districts. She's not paralyzed. There's absolutely nothing wrong with her. But he said there's something really wrong with gypsies mother. The doc said Didi was making gypsy sick and doing it on purpose. Just a few days after that doctor's visit someone called in a non ass- tip to the Missouri department of family services. The tipster said Dady was abusing gypsy this tip very likely flowed from her visit to Dr Fleischer stain. So two case workers were so knocking on door to check out the claim in person who the call awful legs to see bad verses. And at that time. I didn't think that I was being abused. I didn't understand. There was nothing that made me question my life. So whenever they came to look at my legs. I had no bruises. They dismissed it. They question. My mother is to why I had different birth years at different hospitals. My mother claimed that she had a head injury from a car accident that we were in into them one in they believed her and close the case. The door sort asking questions did help flicker in you that maybe you might be taken away wanna be taken away because I love my mother so much at that time we had a good bond with each other. I wasn't trying to rebel at that time. So the didn't feel like you were being victimized. So you would have resisted being taken away. Yes, sir. How did your mother respond to that? When the came. She's very nervous to the point of shaking. She really really didn't know what to say. Digging through her files to try and find a copy of my birth certificate. That she had four to make it look like I was younger. She changed the numbers since nineteen ninety one. It was nineteen ninety five and they kept questioning her. She kept getting more nervous during that brief Izzet who social workers didn't find evidence of abuse. So they closed the case, but that revisit opened up everything for gypsy. She finally learned the truth about her relay she was nineteen fifteen. And that's when she rebelled when I turned nineteen I ran away from home for the first time. But what happened when DD found her and believe me, you'll be aghast? What that woman did gypsy? That's all coming up after this short break when a couple of social workers checked out. An anonymous report the D was abusing gypsy rose. She learned that she was nineteen fifty. She was very small. So she always believed she was younger. She always knew deep in her. Mind that she could walk with her mother had her so afraid it would cause damage. She was frayed to do it. And Nash, she was coming to the realization that her mother lied to her about everything if she was lying about my age is she lying about everything, you know. Now, you didn't have muscular dystrophy, you know, now, you didn't need to be wheelchair. You know, now she was making all of that out. When did you Stig your this? I started having an inkling when I turned nineteen and and made a friend Eliya. She was our next door neighbor. And I started wondering why can't I be like, Leo? Why can't I have friends? Why can't I go to the mall with friends? I can I go outside and meet people because I would look at her life in her life was so different for mine to it made me question my life and pretty soon I found a couple of bits of paper. My mom say. Things that stated that I was for in nineteen Ninety-one Mamie question. My real age. I asked her about it. She said that it was a typo, and I still I wanted to be older. And so I take in those papers and the Medicaid card that I found with my actual real birthday on it. And I ran away from hell. Finds out to their mothers lie to our better age that really sucked her to thinking. And she realizes that. She is of age she realizes, okay, I'm nineteen. Now. I'm not a teenage. I'm not fifteen. So she starts to feel a little more empowered. Let's say. Very far because she found me pretty quickly took me back home. Why was I electoral? She smash my laptop, and yes, I did have a lot chop for time. It was playable games on stuff. The ham. And she told me if I was to contact anybody any of her friends Intel them that she would take a hammer to my fingers next time, and then she put a balance to work. So if I tried to run away again, she could hear it, and she she had taken handcuffs and a dog leash tied it together and tiny bed Cheney. Ready heads riff. Me and tethered it to the bed. Hello. At six. Empowerment didn't last long because she's outrageously punished. I mean, two weeks chained up like a wild animal. This is a trophyless. And this is why I say you have to realize her point of view and annot. You're shaking your head and saying how could that woman do that to her own little girl? But this is a watershed moment for gypsy based on a running away. She absolutely no, she's being lied to nip highlighted by her mother. She knows she can walk. She knows she can run. She knows her spine doesn't collapse. And she knows mom is not my best friend. She's running away. She's not running to something. She's running away from something. She knows everything she's done people with munch house and Senate by proxy are calculating. And so now she changed her to a bed for two weeks. It just shows the depths of depravity that Didi fell into so just so she could continue her fraud just to continue to get attention and money. That's what I mean by. By saying this to me is just abuse. This is abuse this is cash driven. And once gypsy was freed from the chains on the bed. She found another way out of the house a virtual way out because Didi smash gypsies computer, she secretly used her mother's laptop and did something so bold and daring than ever mother ever found out. God knows what would have happened. She was really taking a risk here, which tells me had desperate. She was she was willing to take this risk. Facebook account or my mother had one and I wasn't allowed to have one. But I made one anyway, and I would talk to Leah talk to a few other people that hadn't met in person, but want to make friends I wanted to reach out and be normal. And I made an online dating profile on Christian dating website because I started to have feelings of wanting a boyfriend, and that was something that was never allowed never. There was your head shaved at that point. You go on the dating site and you've got a shaved head winks. And it's on this Christian dating site that you meet nNcholas phone. We. Our relationship was about almost three years much of it was just talking back and forth on the computer. Ninety nine percent of it gypsies, a pretty resourceful young woman for someone who's been so sheltered and living under mother's thumb. She wanted to meet nNcholas in person, and she knew she had to be the driver on this. She had to be the one move this forward. Because necklaces limited basement I mean and have a job or anything. So she got several hundred dollars from her mom safe by nNcholas bus fare and some nice clothes. So he soon took the greyhound from Wisconsin, Springfield. The plan was to rendezvous at the movie theater. How how home so nice clothes to wear and tear on? I just want him to look nice. So hopefully, getting press my mother, she did know he'd come down from Wisconsin. And you told him you were in a wheelchair. But did you tell him that you could walk won't tell him that until probably? Final year of our relationship. What did he say when you said I'm in a wheelchair, but I can walk. He said that he knew already he said that he was psychic. And he had these permissions that I could walk. But oh what you're thinking that sales pretty weird. But it's only going to get more bizarre because nNcholas toll gypsy that he had multiple personalities whilst that he was a five hundred year old vampire in Victor five hundred year old vampire name Victor. Would you think about that as like, okay, a plate along guess, you believe it, or did you I think prime made it really time. You did believe he was five hundred euro vampire, Viktor living in Wisconsin. Riding a greyhound. But. It sounds pretty ridiculous, of course. Because we're looking at this and the rational light of day, and I've ever heard vampires riding on buses they don't need to. But of course, I assume this is the first vampire that gypsies ever dealt with. So I soon she didn't evaluate very carefully either. Lots of personalities Baker was only one of them. They had others that were much more violent and scary such as he called him the black one. And that weighs send me. Video messages online and just talk in this horrible, scary voice. And he talked on how he wanted to kill me can how he wanted to rape me. And if I didn't do everything he said that he would come in find me kill me. And he and I quote, he said I will kill you so bad that they will never find your body. I did I was in love. But the are thought I was in love with the good side of him. Gypsy was all in. She says she made up her own alter egos to complement his there was pretty sexual content to you're going back and forth on the internet. Right. Also, he was erotic role playing be DSM, it'll and you had alter egos as well. Right alter-ego to fit hits. Okay. Like, tell me about little kitty, and that'll kidding ways. Kind of a little girl. I kinda based her looks off of anime cartoons which wanted that when cataract Bill with. Cataract with his little boy personality. There was a candy. What was that candy was more of the vixen more? Risque that with what that went with his that personality that's more sexual you have Notre go ruby, and what about ruby waste for Victor, ruby was for the vampire. So we're was evil was aware will and she was the evil one. She'll gin gypsies thinking in a pretty sophisticated way. Here. I mean, you look at the structure of the alter egos little kitty was a little girl who went with go to John's little boy personality candy was a sexual vixen invented to go with his sexual personality, and ruby was the evil where wolf who went with his vampire personality. And by this time gypsy knows that she can fully walk with no problem. So she's really starting to think for herself here, and she's getting very creative. It's after this meeting at the movies. Did you ask him to kill your mother? Not at the movie theater afterwards. We had thought of different ideas. I was getting desperate says her desperation turned into thoughts of murder after she got into a knock down drag out argument with her mother over having yet another operation. What about my heating too? I asked her I could have it removed because I was honest with her. I'd no longer need this feeding to can we please have it removed, and she said, no. And I had an upcoming surgery, and I didn't wanna have it. So I asked please tell the doctor. I don't need this surgery had twenty four like I know that had the surgery for why do we have to have it again? And she's like there's nothing I can do about it the doctor wants it. And so I came very numb to plan B. Well, that sounds sinister what the heck is plan b. Coming up in the next episode gypsy asked nNcholas the question, will you kill my mother, surprisingly, he says, he can't do it. But even more surprisingly, he says Viktor the vampire will do it. Victor. Please. And I said, Victor, will you please come kill my mother for me because I can't do it myself, what her would nNcholas aka Victor vampire rose into town on a mission of murder. He was wearing a hoodie and dark clothing. In a scary t-shirt shirt that had evil clowns on it. And I handed him when I. I wanna take you through the murder scene minute by minute as the vampire killer. Does what he does. Now that's all coming up in episode four the killer. Thorn of gypsy rose analysis of murder by Dr Phil and we're going to get a look at what actually took place inside that house that night because gypsy was there for every minute of it you won't wanna miss her talking about what happened that night. I'm Dr Phil thanks for listening. Hey, have you one of those people that likes to listen to things add free? You can do that with fill in the blanks by going to Stitcher premium, and what's more you can get a month free trial, just go to Stitcher premium dot com and use promo code, Phil. That's l and you can listen to all of my ad free.

Coming up next