1. Stephen King
The history of horror. Uncut is a shudder original podcast, download the shutter app or visit shutter dot com and enter the code shudder, pod to start your free two week trial. That's promo code. S. H. U. D. D. E. R. P. O. D. I'm sure curator Sam Zimmerman. This is the history of horror uncut and essential audio companions ally. Rots history of horror ally. Ross history of horror is a seven episode docu series, threatening the Belushi, and immortality of the Sean, and all its terrorists within these are the full candidate interviews, most of which can only be found in heard right here in this podcast. You'll hear how the shape these filmmakers authors make up my stroz. You'll hear the personal unbridled appreciation that only comes from those who know how special or can be welcome to a more intimate history of horror. The history of horror uncut is built with the full raw interviews conducted in production for ally, roths history of horror in some cases, ally, leads the talk itself, and in others, deeply knowledgeable producer curtsying stepped in today is one of you is most exciting, if really only to hear his own spilling thrill to sit down with the world's horror dad, an idol to all of us. Stephen King, Stephen king's legacy is unparalleled the author of Kerry and salems lot, the stand, the shining, pet cemetery the dark tower it for so many Stephen King is not only the gateway, but the guide a storyteller professor, a family member. His constant outpouring has kept us company throughout our whole horror loving lives. He has been extrordinary in his ability to be expressly mainstream, and yet so true to his visions themes, and the Shaun Laura most recently embodied in the stunning two thousand eighteen horror novel. The outsider though, outspoken on social media, and prolific and writing, it's still really. Feels like we don't actually hear from king all that much. So it's a treat to present a lengthy candid, talk with this master of the Markov one that touches on genre his own fandom and insights, and, of course, the many avenues of his work, including process and film adaptations here now is Eli Roth and Stephen King. Listen up ghouls I were both huge fans obviously might gateway drug into reading was your books. I mean I started with. I mean, I think it was chose. There was a anthology children in the car in the skeleton crew. And I remember being, I went to summer camp in Maine in Casco, Maine, sitting there like with a flashlight going to bed, and it's like right next door to where I live. Man. I love those. I loved it. Do you think there's something about growing up on the east coast in the woods at night, that just gives you an appreciation flavor for horror, and, or is it the torture being a Red Sox fan is neither one of those things it's just something that you grow up with every kid, you know? You know wants to take a chance and see how much they can take. Yeah. I, I remember sitting my probably my first experience is sitting like when you have sleep over friends telling scary stories, or go story or urban legend. What was your do you remember like a was there a gateway drug like one experience? You had with scare that. You've got addicted to the feeling. Boy, I can remember watching a lot of movies on WPI when I was a little kid. You know. And they showed the same thing over and over again. And for me, although it's hilarious now at four years old, it was scary. There was a picture called robot monster. And it was basically darla. Yeah, it was a guy from space with a diving helmet on, you know. And it's ridiculous now. And then there was the creature from the black lagoon and what I remember maybe five or six years old and watching that thing on TV just a girl in the white bathing suit and the creatures right below or reaching up and not quite touching or foot and I'm going like losing. You know. And I'm thinking at that point, that's scary as hell and I would like to do that. But the other thing was the, the tales from the crypt comic books and EC, comics love those because really, what is a comic book historian board movie. Right. So we went ahead and, and Georgia, and I, you know. One of my all time favorite movies wanted to do that. And, you know, my first thing with George was he said, we ought to work together and do something I'm like I'm down with that. And I thought about a little bit. And I said, why don't we just do a movie. That's all like, you know, how comedy stint skits blackouts, and I was thinking to myself. Well, let's do a number of horror blackouts just show a guy, you know, who's doing garbage disposal and pushing stuff in there and all at once in the blood goes everywhere, and George dot com. Yeah. But why don't we do number stories like tales from the crypt and I went. Yeah, let's, let's do that. I remember seeing Creepshow. There's so many things I love about that movie. He looked back now. It's Ed Harris with air have. Right. But the cockroaches was the thing at school. That was like the thing that was everyone was talking about the image of AC Marshall, I find with horror, the first time you watch it. There's that shocking image always say bloodstains your eyes. Then you the second time you watch it. It's not as scary, but you notice other things, and then there's some random line low, you're a director's we that. But see the thing was Savini was the guy who did the effect on that movie genius. And he did. I did Jordi barrel. So he did a cast of me and it was a little bit freaky. Because it was so claustrophobic, you know, to have that stuff all over your face, and they put a thing in your mouth. Yeah. You know that you can breathe through so e g came in because he was going to be the thing at the end where the bugs were just gonna sort of explode out of him. And they wanted to do a full face cast of him and have the bugs explode out of his body. The guy says to Tom says, you know, we're going to cover are you cost to phobic, because this stuff going to be all over, your face, and EG's just is flat as could possibly be? No. But can I have suburban tipped into the straw every now and then they have they? Come covered with this stuff drop dental tiny bit of bourbon and all the time. And he did it. And when we did the final scene, he just sort of exploded with bugs on inside of everybody was like nervous scared to death. It could be one take, yes. The only thing you could do there like five thousand cockroaches, and they were going to blow them through this, this, too, you know, pneumatic now you'd have a digital Connor, if you win, you really had to cockroaches. They were everywhere those cockroaches everywhere. And the people started to just freak out, and George would see these cockroaches comment over and he would just off. There's nothing to it. So there was this quiet on the set. Can you set get the cockroaches ready kings, cockroaches kind of thing, and it's a white room and they did it, and it was perfect and everybody in the place just exploded into applause? It's one, it's one of the great great. Moments of movies, I often hear this criticism of horror that people will watch movie terrifies them. And then go back years later and go it doesn't hold up. And I think that that's kind of a bullshit criticism because it's almost like Cologne, or perfume that wears off. I mean you will never be scared of the haunted house. The second time. I it just drives me crazy people go. Oh, evil dead's the scariest movie. And the go remember it being much scarier, the great thing about horror is, it'll never get you as much as did the first time. And you're always like chasing that dragon to get that through again. Well, you see the art, the second time you see the art, the third time I can remember, just sort of wandering into a screening of night of the living dead. It was in the afternoon, and it was like a Saturday or something, the place was fully kids through our no rating system per se. Then the whole place is of kids. It was like a Saturday matinee and they're all you know, Yemen, and grab assing around and throwing their popcorn boxes and that thing going. And they just felt entirely silent, and they're just all is. And I'm thinking to myself, and I was scared to the first time that you see something like that you're not prepared for what you're looking at. I mean, there were things that were so transgressor give in that movie, the little girl, stabs other. Other cute killing her mom that no one ever seen anything like that. He lied the second. I mean the first time you see it. You're just horrified. You can't believe what you see in the second time you see it. You see the art, I mean, this was a movie that was made on the quick, it was independent wasn't any money behind it to speak of you? See the shadows on the wall, the spud splattering there this black and white. And it's very the contrast. He goes back and forth between that and the light bulb that's going back and forth. You see the shadows you see him going across. I mean you made the brilliant connection between the shadows and living dead in the birds, we're gonna see Tippi Hedren waving the light. There's so it's. Where George Godhra you know. So you see the art, I mean, the first time that you watch the birds you just freak. And you say to yourself, I'm totally involved in the story and you totally lost it at. That's why you know, they kind of pull you in there. And then all at once you terrified because you can't get out the second time you see some of the stuff that he's doing, like with the aerial shot, the bird in the foreground, and he looks down and you see the fire coming up on the town where the guy crashed the cost. So, and when you look at the camera and they're like you brought us here. You're the reason that that's addressing the audience. Let me tell you something to the people who make these movies, don't understand. You don't understand when you make something, whether it's going to work or not. It's like comedy. And it's very like, who would have thought the Blair witch project would work the way that it was the first time I saw that movie I was in the hospital. I was doped up my son brought a VHS tape of it and he said, you gotta watch. This halfway through it. I said turn it off. It's two freaking I, I had the same experience. Some friend of mine said him, this movie just got into Sundance, and he gave me a tape of it, and I watched it, and it was, and I was like, I have to turn the lights on, I was so disturbed by the end of the movie disturbing. I was like I get chills thinking about how scared I was the memory of how scared I was when I watched the Blair witch project, I'd never seen. And the fact that the ending they dropped the camera the guys in the wall, and it's over. And then they started the campaign of, like, is it real is fake? And then caught on the and again, paranormal activity scared me Dame. That's amway. That's a different thing. The, the advertising campaign for that movie is fucking brilliant. The first time a website was used in the making in the marketing of a movie. But the thing is it wouldn't have worked if the movie didn't work moves really disturbed people. It was so scary. I mean, I'm trying to think of the seminal experiences where I have like markers and my brain. But you had the experience with Bambi as like. Your first for my first Harvey was Pinocchio, and I don't even remember my parents reminded me, I was completely obsessed with Pinocchio and I was terrified of the whale that scared me so much. And then it was a reviewer that years later pointed out the similarities between hostile Pinocchio of the three boys going to Amsterdam looking for sex is like Pinocchio going to pleasure island and being turned into the jackass by Stromboli. It's where we can't escape our obsessions from childhood, that was the thing about Pinocchio that scared me, which they were growing years if ever, they were. So they were they would scare it and understand what was happening to the first movie that terrified me to the point where I could barely look at it was the haunting of hill. House was scary, probably eleven years old, and you never really see anything until that one. Bad cars pounding the scariest sound the door, kind of Boll ges. Yeah. But the thing is it builds up and it builds up. And finally, she's going up the stairs. This ready Radley unsteady spiral staircase, and the trap door opens, and it's the professor's wife and she goes. And I'm thinking, did I had a heart attack? I'm never going to grow up. Well, it's also feeling of no one will ever do anything as scary as this again. You're like this steers hunt, and then paranormal activity comes out, and then the conjuring comes out and you're just thinking, okay. Jane's me scary magic, and it's free. As soon as she goes, let's play the game clap clap. But we've talked about. I mean, I've never read a lot about the changeling the John, I love the changing in the image of the bubble ball. The bouncing ball, have you seen Fellini's Toby, dammit? No. You gotta see Toby. Dammit, spirits. It was part of an anthology called spirits of the dead where Roger va deem, Louis Malle, and Fellini. Each adopted a Poche story, Oakland PO adaptable, and call them never bet the devil, your head, and they released it as a forty minute standing on future as Terence stamp is crazy drunk like drug addict actor from England who goes to Italy to make a spaghetti western, but he's haunted by the image of a little girl, the white girl with a bouncing ball that he wants to that she wants to play with him, and he knows it is co spirits, and the debt, I'm going to find. There's it's on the criterion released one. That's in French, I have the English and Italian, it's hard to find, but it's like it's got the image a little girl in the white bouncing ball. And the music is very similar Nina roots music, is very similar to Halloween. Resume nothing to do with the show trilogy. One of the. American international pictures, back in the day, you're too young to remember, but I saw them on. And I mean, I remember nuts for rod to allow this, this goes earlier than that, but through is one of those guys who adapted Nikolai Gogol story, the ring, and it's a very, very simple story. The best ones always are. And basically, the guy this woman is buried with this expensive ring on her hand. She's in a crypt and he goes in, and she started to decay a little bit. And he steals the ring she comes out of the grave to get it simple. But it might God scary, sometimes when I'm starting a movie, I'll think of a kill like cabin fever is like, oh, she shaves her legs off, and you write the movie, basically, as an excuse to do z to do us lifesaving lobster is basically an excuse to eat butter. Say you start with a lobster or the butter or does it just depend story to story. Okay on lot of times with shorter fiction. I start with something that I really wanna do to creep, the reader out or to scare the hell out of I've got a story now that I wanna right? But I can't tell you I mean it has to do with a guy who gets buried with a cellphone in his pocket. Okay. I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you. I know. No don't tell us. But I'm swimming. But it starts with that seed of that. I want to see someone what would you do this? And I'm walking on a road here at somebody who's building something. And there was one of those porta-pottys out there and I thought to myself, you know what, what would happen if somebody got locked in one of those, you know, how would he get out, and I'm thinking, well, he'd have to go through the home and crawl through all that stuff down there and somehow find a way out. So I called somebody that I knew in construction, and I said, how hard would it be to get? Into a porta potty and escape through the bottom, and he goes, like I thought I got something. That's it sometimes, I'll tell someone idea and they go, oh, that's too. That's crazy. You can't moments. And that's what I know there are moments that I remember this full chief film, Ligi, full CI. I somebody's on me to the splinter. Right. Your. Yeah, that's one of the best kills ever in movies. I thought Lucia Fauci from us, probably the most underrated director. I've seen his early comedies Jallow films. Don't torture, duckling seven doors of death beyond I love zombie to is, is one of the best things because it's a rip off of dawn of the dead. They needed a sequel. So in Italy, Donna, does Lisa zombies. Don't forget, the Giambi that has the fight with the shar. That's the greatest thing ever in a movie. It's zombie to is totally over the top this yo full cheat actually I've prince with his daughter, Alex, I wanted to know how to guy fight zombie. He put a stuntman who trained to shark in zombie makeup in the ground. And he had a shark that they think they drug, the hell out of the shark the guy what's his arm. And the short of this guy knew the shark well enough to put his arm in the shark. It's actually they showed the homeland for two hundred thousand dollars. It's a guy holding his breath in zombie makeup. You know, putting his arm Chartres the shark bites zombie zombie by shark sharks fans away. It has absolutely nothing. Thing to do with the movie, but it's probably one of the greatest things ever in horror films. But it doesn't have to have a lot to do with the movie, a lot of times, because these things are like dreams. I've always felt that I was felt that movies were the conscious with the closest representation to what it is. When you have a dream, and our memory of movies and our memory of dreams become very similar. If I think about a dream, I had, I think about a movie I saw years ago. They have the similar type of feeling and have always felt that horror films are the closest representation to our troops. There's almost no logic. You can kind of go anywhere. What is it? I mean, I've thought about this and talked about this over and over being scared is not an emotion. We wanna feel in real life. We do everything to avoid being afraid, but what is it about reading scary books telling scary stories novels that we just love? It's just incredible incredible endorphin release safe. It's a safe thing as a safe place to go. There are two different sides to this one is. There movies death wishes one. Okay. Your picture your death wish the original the Michael winner. I think it was winter. There are a number of pictures like the Friday, the thirteenth movies the Freddie movies where you're able to actually take your your deepest. Most antisocial impulses for a walk. And it safe. Nobody gets hurt. We understand on one level, that it's not happening. But on 'nother level, it's as real, as any of our fantasies. So that's one side of it. The other side of it is what you just said, is true. We don't really like to be scared in real life. But in a movie, we have a chance to be afraid and to almost externalize the fears that we have, there are things in some movies that are, like classic moments, the girl who is alone in a parking garage, and you hear that click Clack, I can't see any movie. For some characters in a parking garage, where I don't say to myself something awful was going to happen to this person just, it's just bad news. And then this the hospital. Okay, the person who's in the hospital and the nurse was of your right back. And you're in the bet. I'm just down the hall theme. You just ringing that buzzer and you're going through their hands. Not gonna reach it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've heard from soldiers on military bases who told me, they're like, I can't watch your movies. We'll show hostile or something on a military base. And people are screaming and covering there is, but they have to go out and face real death every day as they do you know it's a different thing. But for most of us, we have that experience, there's another side of it, too. Does the imagination side of it? What would I do in this situation are these characters behaving in a way that I would behave for me man, if I was in a cabin somewhere? And I wept out my iphone and I say, I got no signal, I get the hell out of there right away because, you know, that's I know that. That situation. And you know that someone's gonna come out of the woods point when I was a kid I used to plan escape routes. I by parents feel like night before I went to bed, I'd have to map out about fifteen I if I go out the window, and I can jump on that branch and I can use this weapon, and I can grab this pocket knife. I just think it's something we naturally do. So one thing is we're getting a chance to exercise our most antisocial emotions. You know, that mob impulsively. Like, yeah. Kill him. Only God, sort of my, the other thing is we get to experience fear that roller coaster thing where scared to death. But at the same time, we know we're safe. So it's a chance to explore emotions in safety that we don't get a chance to and the other thing is just pure imagination. You have a chance to see things that you wouldn't ordinarily see in a movie, and it's, you know, it's a wonderful thing yet once also slowing down in washing the car accident knows that too. I also think as kids, I mean, I'm just going to war philosophically. We'll talk specifically about these as kids. We all tell each other don't be afraid. Go do Dobie, scare me your older brothers daring you to do something. Come on jump off jump off that woodshed. Don't be afraid climate. Tree hard. Don't be scared. Don't be scared. And as you get older. We're not allowed to be scared. I mean everyone can freak out about the political climate. We can freak out about war we can free, but you're not supposed to you've to bury it down bury it down. But it's in there in ruining and I feel like the stuff you've written. I know for me it's like, oh, this is a way for me to be afraid without being seen as a coward by actually. Exactly. I've had the pleasure of watching your movies, as a kid before I read the book and in some cases I read the book, first and then watched it. Do you enjoy watching adaptations or is it has an off? I like to watch at applications and I'm always interested to see what people do with the stuff. I have a program that I called dollar babies and people who are aspiring filmmakers, if it's something that is under contract. I'll say share. Go ahead. You have to sign a contract, you have to pay me a buck, and you have to say, I won't show this for profit, unless I say you can't Frank Darabont did one the woman in a room, that's, that's where he got his start. But man, I just love it because it was some guy who did a version of a story, I wrote called the sun dog with gum, these, and it was, it was really interesting. Also fucking hilarious. So you see people who do funny stuff. You see stuff people who just and you say, well, this doesn't work, but then other things you say, this is real talent here. One of the things that I've always liked about horror movies, and this goes right back to Roger Corman who gave so many people's Dr grades one of. The movies scared. The hell out of me was dementia. Thirteen shooting it on a weekend while they're shooting another in two days in a castle in Ireland. You see the talent there. You see the ability to choose what's going to make people afraid Jonathan Demme early stuff. I like that. So one of the things about horror movies that I like is kind of still considered to be a low end. I said to you, this is my favorite time of year to go to the movies, because this is where they supposedly dump stuff. But a lot of times on jab Yalies. I will watch anything. That's a harm of. I don't care how bad it. And I love it. I I'm like three on a meat hook. I'm like a garbage despite that. Yeah. Midnight, meat trade. I gotta tell you something, the worst horror movie I ever saw was fucking great. Yeah. Okay. Journals, the way that I am because I go in there and I say, one of my gonna see I don't know. Yeah. Well, then they're there the thing about this is like their ratings system. A movie. It's PG thirteen. That's a horror movie. It's gotta be scary in some way. That's really artistic once you get to our once you get unrated. You say I don't know what I'm going to see. I know. Well, it's, I've always felt that synergy with punk rock and. Yeah. And you've you've talked about that, too, where you're like, it's almost think it's going to upset your parents. It's gonna piss people off. You're not supposed to see it, but I remember seeing movies like the mutilated where it was like by axe by pick by hooked by by and just the box art alone. Right of the hook, and there's literally nothing clever about this movie. It's just like he's the mutilated and they don't even have a mystery of who it is. It's just like, oh, your dad. He just got out of prison. Let's go to the cabinet anyways and then they show him and he kills everybody but he's the naval air but I love it. I got one word for you maniac. I done something for use, and they will who is that William less. That was Bill Lustick when Joe Spinella. Caroline Munro, right maniac is one of my favorite. Moves and I had a feeling you'd like it mania, which is why it's a gift for you. I brought you figure. We did not rehearse this folks. Look. The maniac. Maniacs excited I almost dropped it. It's a maniac, bloody scalp. Isn't that sweet? Yeah, it really is. I mean I don't know how to thank you for that. You can enjoy a little memento this conversation, a maniac shin figure I love maniac. Because by the way, I did a rip off of the poster for hostile and Bill lusting told me that he had the guy with a knife, MMA head, and he specifically told the artists, the guy has to have interaction. And they put a huge that was the days in Times Square the like a huge giant billboard of it, and people were outraged I was like we have to rip that we have to do our own Amodu hostile. And they wanted appeasing it in Europe as like the main poster you go. I love maniac, but that had those incredible Savini effects of the scalping in all of them coming to life at the end. But it was also Joe Spinella who's one of my favorite actors Herschell Gordon Lewis Herschell, Gordon Lewis is a real talion feast blood visas, the best two thousand eight thousand maniacs blood, fix the wizard. Of gore, Herschell, Gordon Lewis and all free drive, and takes man. I was there forty to fifty thousand dollars blood feast with I mean, the guts being ripped out, he's the first guy that went to the butcher shop got the pig entrails and then just had people ripping them out. Right. He was one of the greats Herschell Gordon Lewis, but that must have been, but you got to see those movies, as a kid, I was watching them on VHS after I had already seen dawn of the dead, the effects of pale. But you have to what we were talking about before you see it done a certain way. And then you go back to the to the originators and you say, well, yeah, not that great. But it's part of the. The allegation is the evolution. Yeah. Yeah. What was it like seeing? I mean you got to see the boundary pushed going from the nineteen fifties creatures, the man in the rubber suit too graphic viscera. What was it like seeing it pushed farther and farther, it was transgressive? I keep coming back to that word you say to yourself. I never saw anything like that in a in a film, and I do think that after a while dick gets to be a numbing effect. You get side sort of numb to some of this stuff like when I was a kid and something like psycho, the first time I saw psycho that audience was in hysterics. And you don't see that, that much anymore. People are used to these various effects. I mean the last time I really think that I heard on audience shriek take that back a little bit because there were some shrieks in Blair witch. No some people, but I can remember people shrieking at I can remember. Oh, well that I've forgotten, but you have to remember that I'm, I'm seventy years. I can certainly remember, you know, the reaction in the shower scene in psycho, and you never see the knife go in. So it's an amazing thing but it's also there was reading a lot with west craven talking about watching the Vietnam footage on television, and then making last house in the left as misery action to that which is full entrails being pulled out. I think that culturally seen war on television, must have done something because you can just see this almost tectonic shift in the violence that gets into the movies with obviously, the Scorsese films and the Francis were coupling the film brat films the seventies. But what horror did in the seventies last night? But then Texas chainsaw massacre. I mean, Texas chainsaw massacre, it's a work of art. It is a work of art and. That's another movie where you think you see a lot more than you see. And isn't that pretty much the original spam in a cabin movie? I mean that's the first one where these kids are out there. They can't get out. And you have, you know, that whole thing about the last girl. Yeah. The final arts in Maryland burns. I think that that's the meat hook scene is remember Pam gets hung on a meat hook. And the sound effect is so affective. I know and you just like it's also her acting I mean I always I remember when I have fights with the ratings board. They were really Jimmy difficult time on hostile to. And when the girls hung upside down being blamed the bathtub, and I said, if her acting was bad would it be effective, and they're like, well, no? And then I said, well, don't blame the movie the acting but that girl when that thing goes through a chest and she's and she doesn't die right away. But she's gasping for air is you whatever it does your subconscious you one hundred percent. Remember you see going through where neither face goes? Back into that thing and slams the door slam. When he grabs her and pulls her in and slams the shot under the swing. If there's one movie that's the well, I'm always drinking out of rip things off. Do you. I, I remember with the James one, the director of saw, we would jokingly just try and one up each other when it was Mossel and saw. And then we had to call each other, but eventually just sort of divide a body parts I was like, well, I'm cutting off the penis in hostile to, like, well, I'm doing a guy with a bunch of nipple rings. I was I was going to do nipple ring. We split the body parts. These though. I mean what you were saying before about directors and writers, you know, basically hanging the story because they want to do one thing Stephen Spielberg, and I talked a lot about poltergeist. He wanted me to write it. And we had some kind of a mix up. I would have written it if it was today, and we could have emailed back and forth. But those loss of communications, I was on a boat going across the Atlantic Ocean to England and he didn't get a reply and he got all. But what he said to me, was, I wanna do ghost kiss. And I said, oh, really? I mean, this whole movie about ghosts in the people in the house, and the little girls and everything. And you're fixated on that. I mean, I didn't actually say that it was even Spielberg but yeah, he's going like I wanna do goes kiss, and I know just how I'm going to do it sort of, I'm gonna put a piece of glass down, and the ghost is gonna kiss her in your good. See her lips move in and kind of get a little bit white and depressure is could, so you're going to see the ghost kissing her without the ghost, he said, but I don't know how to get rid of the smear on the glass, and I said, well, I don't even think it's in the movie but it was interesting. But that was the image that was that was the thing that hokey hogging the whole thing on. And man, I've done books where I've said. Ed, I want to finish up. I want this particular thing in there. And by the time the story gets there is change completely. And so I think it's like that goes kiss. I just finished a novel. I was thinking beforehand. We back to childhood, you know, I was thinking, like, wouldn't it be cool? One time I was in school. And I said, wouldn't it be cool, if this school just started to move and then it picked up speed and I had an image in my mind of the school running over roads and knocking down trees and put him this path through the woods crashing through houses and coming into town and running people down and all that other stuff. And I said, I really want to kind of go back to that and do something with that. And does this scene that's within shouting distance of that in the book, but it never never quite never quite hit. Do you get inspired by movies? We ever watching movie and go that so scary, I need to one up or do my. Yeah. Or sometimes I'll be watch. Watching a movie and I'll be thinking to myself, you know, this is a really interesting situation. I wonder if I could come at this in a different direction than I could do something that has that field of that, that sort of thing, you know. Yeah, well, interesting you brought a poltergeist because poltergeist for me, the thing, I remember the most out of all the effects was the clown, and that clown doll was the scared that was the first image, the terrified me from clowns. And then, of course it comes along. And here we are years later, and it's the biggest horror film, Nevada time, tell me about your experience watching it from the book and which I remember what the summer the book came out. Everyone was reading it. We all had our like this big no matter where we were. And then watching the television adaptation and Andy misguided stem, what was that? Like the nearest of all the clowns hate me. You know, most really good people, and they love children, and they go to hospitals and they make a living and everything. In fact, I have an assistant up. In Maine, whose husband part times, a clown, for something, and he tries to be nice to me, because his wife works for me and everything, but you can see. Oh he's. But tourist, I just tell people don't hate the messenger for the message kids, scared to death of clowns clowns or a natural disguise for monsters, because you never know what's under that, makeup in John Wayne gay. See those clouds John Wayne gay. He did tell me you're experiencing, the new are you involved with the movie when you see what did you? I mean that opening sequence with a yellow raincoat was one of the best openings in harm is I wasn't involved with the miniseries and I wasn't involved with this. I've talked with Andy since then, and I think the movie was partially success, because a lot of kids saw the mini series when they were eleven or twelve and it was pretty scary for TV and it made a Mark on him. And when the movie came out, they, they really wanted to see that. But the thing is Andy shot the shit out of that movie. He really did. He did a terrific job with a movie, and he stuck to the kids part of the book, which was dynamite dynamite is amazing might had shades of stand by me in. The movie. Yeah, I did. But it did from the book too. I mean still, you know, they're sort of from the point of view looking up from the kid's point of view. I always think of when I'm working on it or when I was working on standby me, you know how the peanuts cartoons. Adults don't really have voice as you just go wall. And that's what it is for kids, pretty much. So first of all, I got a jinx stink if people are in touch with me a lot about something I always feel like maybe they've lost their way. But the worst, jinx of all is never send me swag from a movie before the movie becomes never send me to win it puts the way me on it completely. So I didn't really have anything to do with that. I knew some of the history when that guy who's last name. I can't pronounce Cary Fukunaga. Yeah. You know, when he was involved, I'd seen true detective. And I thought, well, I wish he was doing it, but I knew Andy's worked from her mama mama was terrific. Mama was terrific. So I said, we've got a real. Chance here. He's got a chance to do something really good because script was very, very strong. It was very smart. They knew the right things to put it in the right things to leave out. I saw they asked me what I want to see a rough cut down here in Sarasota and this was probably eight months before the movie was released. So it was really early cut, but I looked at it and I said, this thing's going to be huge is perfect. It really works. You just know from the beginning because when Georgie is running down the gutter after the, the boat, it looks like a real rainstorm. It doesn't look like a sunny day, where people ran rain machine. And once they rip when they ripped his arm off you go own my God. This again, unsafe narrator, anything can happen. It was a mainstream movie that was rated R. This is going to be a big thing for the next few years, because you've got people who grew up on PG thirteen who are now eighteen nineteen years old, and they're ready for something, and it's a little bit stronger, and those people responded, like crazy today played like a family film, and it became the movie you were dared to see and door laughs in it, and everything and kids talked about it that were too young to see it. And I think a lot of massad anyway. And that's the way it should work. It should be forbidden, these kind of things should be forbidden. I always yeah, that's exactly how still forbidden movie. You know you go see you say, well, when I was a kid a little kid. I can remember clearly being on the bus stop standing around, you know, whereas maybe a fourth and fifth grade. And this kid comes up to me and says, because this was a time when they had like full page ads for exploitation injuries because they were going to be there for a week, and then they were going to be gone. This kid walks up to me and says, Stevie Stevie. Are you going to go see bear? And I'm like, what bear says? Yeah, it's going to be really, really scary. This kid gets buried alive. It's called mcbrayer. Well, finally figured out he was talking about Macab. It was William. And I did go to see it, and it did scare me. Maybe they're big bear when they open the coffin. The kid looks back from aspects or something. So that's well, let's say another adaptation. So what I'm saying. It was forbidden. You know, that was a kind of thing. I my mom was like you're not to watch house of wax. I was like can I watch paying and there are like gotta go see it? I gotta go see it. To see it. I go to see, but it's weird that to my mom house of wax was the most forbid, I can watch Texas chainsaw massacre done, and the dead on. Let's just make affects house of wax was truly that was the one and then I remember seeing it being like this isn't scary at all. It's like every generation has their house, a wax. I taught a film class. Horror films. I actually I did this book called downs for love. Dance mic in big bear dancing bears. My favorite's the dancing, it's sorta grew out of my notes for this class that I did on films and books. I mean we read the books we looked at two films, and one of the films that really worked for me as a kid for a lot of different complex. Reasons was the invasion of the body snatchers, -sego, and one of the things was I fell in love with the girl Becky turns into a pod at the end of the movie. I know you just a haul time, don't let her fall asleep. Don't let her fall asleep. So I remember that. I remember the pods and I remember how it gave me goosebumps when it opens, and you see the sort of blank faces and all that foam and everything. So I showed it to my college class, they laughed they laugh. We should've shown them the remake we're Brooke Adams, stands naked and points. It was pretty. The best ending shots ever. What I remember about that is Donald Sutherland, a health, inspector and says the shifts is it's not our rat turn. It's a caper better. Donald supplement says, if then cut to him shoveling the rice the shining. I saw that as a kid, I had no preconceived to. It was that for me was the movie you were warned against seeing, and it was a weird and it was, I was not old enough to read the book. I mean I could have read about as like ten years old. It would have been like a bit too much for me, and I watched it, and I remember being completely puzzled confused like wanting to watch it again to figure it out. Terrified your reaction washed? I mean you've never fan. It was so different from the book, are you able to enjoy the movie at all at any level or is it just not an interesting movie? I can enjoy it on the same level that you could enjoy a beautifully restored Cadillac without a motor in it. It's gorgeous film to look at absolutely gorgeous to soundtrack is gorgeous to look at. You know, I've said this before my rap about it is this, no character arc in the book, Jack towards goes from a nice guy, who's trying to get better for his family. And for himself, I had an image going into that of a thin piece of metal that you've been back and forth back and forth until it snaps. And I felt like Jack Nicholson played Jack towards you. So he were crazy from the minute one he's, he's talking with Mr Ullmann in the office and Allman saying this, and that Jack's going. Absolutely, Mr. L. And he's yeah. He's nuts from from the first minute. Character arc. But I also thought that Kubrick had taken a pretty strong scary suspense horror, novel and turned it into an October. And I kind of went like I can remember screening and Jack Nicholson was there. And at the end of the movie, Jack said to me, you don't know if he's done with you, yet, do you and I said, yeah, that's the problem. Yeah, but there's certain images the elevators over in the blood coming out the twins. Are you able to enjoy that stuff? Or does it is it frustrating that it doesn't line up with what you wrote this fantastic? Visual image goes back to what I said about the gorgeous Cadillac. What's it in the service of that's the question? You know, it's not like Texas chainsaw where you understand the girl got hung up on the meat hook. Okay. There's one girl left. Good. God. What's going to happen to her? I didn't feel that way. I had other problems with it. It's a misogynistic film. I mean Shelley Duvall is basically a dish rag. This. Teams. I mean, if you made that picture today, can you imagine the metoo movement? Thank you. Maybe maybe it would be accepted on one level, because they would say this is a perfect picture of abuse in action, speak, so they could be there one of your out of that I think is I don't know if it's underrated or it's not talked about enough, but everyone who's seen it loves. It is cujo lose Teague film. I loved that movie. I remember the first time I saw that it was such a simple idea. The dog and I remember the book being the biggest deal, but that movie was terrifying. I was petrified. When people ask me, what are the ones that are your favorite movies? I always mentioned cujo it goes to sort of the prejudice that film reviewers have about horror pictures, the acting. I'll tell you something. He drives me crazy. I got so angry at the Academy Awards. The other night do as one little flash. You saw of pennywise the clown, and that was it. Nobody mentioned it. There was nothing about it. It didn't get nominated. For any awards. But I mean come on it grossed seven hundred million dollars worldwide and not only that it was a good film, Bill Skarsgard, acted office, pennywise, the crown the kids who are great that Finn wolf hards amazing Chee so good. Eddie know his performance was easily the equal of Ryan O'Neal's daughter in paper moon. Is she wanted to kademi award? He didn't even get nominated. So none of them did with the design than that, nothing. It's because messiah or death. Sort of James McEvoy does not get nominated for split. Yeah. For you. Watch that. Explain twenty seven different actors flawlessly. Exactly I look at D walls performance and coup. Jason Miller in the exorcist de walls and cujo. That was one of the great bravura performances of all time. And the movie is so simple. Because that's what to me horror is always situational. It's something where you say to yourself. Okay. We're gonna put a woman and a boy in the car, and then we're gonna see what happens. I had sun on a hot summer day. And, and it just works like that they had like seven different dogs that worked on it. They built a Ford Pinto entirely out of shell aluminum, so that when the dog hit was, it would scare crumpled like that. And I remember those people that outfit called Sun International that actually produce the movie, and I was in New York, and they came, and we sat around and we talked about a little bit. And the guy said, I'm going to say something now you probably get mad about. And I said, what's that, you said we think little boys should live at the end of the movie tad dies at the end of the book and said, look, if? If you make a movie it's got a different kind of audience with different expectations. And if that little boy dies, I think they're probably going to come out of the theaters, and they're going to want to winch you so go with God. I've always felt that way about the movies do what you're gonna do. And then, you know, we'll see what works and what doesn't I always feel like what I write works, and they should do that. But if they don't go with God tan lives at the end of the movie, but there's a scene earlier on where after cujo has been bitten by the bat and has the rabies with the dog licks little boy's face. So I always tell people, you know, the little boy lives at the end of the movie, and then after the movie's over he died horribly. No cure for rabies, but it's a good movie and it keeps it simple. And it really works, Fred Sears made that movie Fred. Anyway, we're supposed to be directed, by the guy who directed Woodstock Michael, Michael waddling, Michael wantonly, I think that was it. Yeah. Shoot. He shot two days, and he said, I can't do this and he walked out really. Michael. I had no idea to. He just wolf movies from a wolf. Dude dog pretty tricky Lewis Teague, then Latigo came on. Yes. Miluis Teague went from kujo from your dog, maybe two cats. I wanted to catch. I wish I love cats. I cat's was almost like like after Creepshow. It was almost like a PG thirteen Creepshow. But that image of the girl dancing in the box to ninety six years was one of the most dramatic things and quitters Inc was one of the best adaptations of your work. Never seen talk to Louis about cats. I before they started shooting cats. I was the second PG thirteen movie. I remember it ever released and was the first one dream scape temple of dim thing, template Zuma's, creators, escape runaway and cats immersing. It was run away because Tom Selleck. I was afraid when they said, we're going to do this as a PG thirteen. I said, do you know what I don't think anybody will go see a p? G thirteen movie because the parents of young children will think it's too scary and kids, who were older will think it's I'll dish and for a while PG, thirteen movies didn't really work that well. But I went up to lose te-, and I said, didn't WC fields, say, never work with children or animals. And you I've never had that problem vampires salems lot freaked me out. I being Jewish the cross thing. Never I was like that all it takes. It was like really afraid of what if they're Jewish vampires? So always my first thought salems lot. I remember. Well, you ought to the priest uses the cross on the vampire, the vampire, walks up to him in snaps it in two pieces and drops it on the floor. He says it only works if you believe. Well, that salems lot, I remember being so scared by that movie, not just because of the way, the vampire looked, but because during the day opening the convent that was the first time I had seen horse that was shot during the day that petrified me and floating around at night. I mean, there was a whole wave vampire movies that were romantic and sexy, and you really restored it to being absolutely terrifying. Raging Alder was great as the vampire, telling that rhino writing salems lot shooting, the movie what you like dislike about the romantic vampire verse the scary dead guy. Well, vampires are supposed to be awful. I mean I grew up reading Dracula and reading about the stink of the grave, the graveyard or that the vampire was in with the worms crawling in it about the, he's baited breath. And the whole thing was like it was supposed to be ugly nasty. And I wanted that kind of a vampire, I was never very interested in. The romantic interview with vampire movie of Tom crew. I remember interview with the vampire, everyone coming out of that movie I was like, why don't they just walk into light? They're all complaining they not to kill themselves. Why don't they just do it? Right. But what do you think Anne rice what she injected there's a whole audience that sort of I think the interview with the vampire because it was Brad Pitt and Tom Cruise became a gateway drug for horror, okay? For a lot of fans is the vampire, the whole vampire idea that the romantic vampires always been popular with teams and early twenties and things, particularly women because it's seen as almost like no fault sex. The vampire is very handsome, very hypnotic. And after all, what's he really going to do? He's going to give you a great big Yankee like on lovers lane. But that's not the way it's supposed to, to be to my mind. I wanted the whole schmeer where the vampires turn more vampires, and they can't come out in the daylight and all that stuff. I'm a classicist man. There is a photo of one kid at Comecon when twyla came out there was like some angry kid with a huge placard. That's a NAS for rod do didn't sparkle. That's me. I'm not kidding. I can remember being autographing thing not too long after that book came out in this, this kid walked up to me, and he said, you know, you ought to do a squeal and that Jenner. And I'm like, what? And Finally, I figured out he was saying you ought to do a sequel in that honor a squealing that Jenner squealing Jenner. He turned out that this kid was the only one in his family read. And he'd read Salem slot to death, but Toby Hooper made it he made it on a budget, by the way. Speaking of the Academy Awards, I was really angry that, Toby who was not mentioned about him. I mean that guy to Texas chainsaw massacre poltergeist eaten alive Salem slot that guy has made, so many seminal movies seminal. But because it's har- they think it doesn't count. But on the other hand, I was in that montage. So. I know you don't want to play favorites. But is there one adaptation of yours that you're like that's the one that nailed exactly what was in my head? Or do you not judge it by that? Well, it depends on, whether you're talking about one of the balls to the wall horror movies. But there are a lot of things that you, you know, you talk about wanting that moment the version of Gerald's game was on Netflix decluttering seen in that it's very hard to watch, and that's a great moment in a really good film. There are things in Christine, John, carpenter's movie that I really like with a car on fire indelible images. But if I had to say, what's the one movie that's really, really scary. And just is unrelenting I would say, probably rob Reiner's misery, you know, because it all builds up to that seed, the penguin. It's the little things hobbling, effective as him putting the penguin when he puts the penguin the wrong way. The whole audience with. She's gonna know she's getting know it's the simplest thing it's as affective as the image that foot Mobley, one of the things that made that them work and made, rob. Right in the perfect person to do it is because humor and horror are really two sides of the same coin. I always say it stops being funny when it starts being, you a lot of times in a horror movie, something really terrible will happen in the ice. And then they'll laugh, you know, because they're trying to play it off on so and misery as a lot of funny things in it, that home Liberace thing wasn't in the book really crazy. She is about liver us. She shoes amazing. And that was, by the way that and silence of the lambs of the first time, I remember what we would call horror movies, but they had to call them thrillers classy winning awards. So it was the first time. And then as you see get out winning screenplay, which is pretty Chen gear winning for shape water. I know that was an excellent thing. That's cool. That's like the Oscar version. Creech black lagoon. Come on now. How much respect you really wanna have because the more respect that we get in this field, the less I feel like we're doing our job. I mean, my latest film. Is that the credit rating fifteen percent on rotten tomatoes and the audience is eighty five percents work is this is why I love February and March, because you see that if I see a movie like that. And it's got that little rotten tomatoes, burgers, flat. I say to myself, I wanna go see that one man. Also seeing that, thank you so much. Hey, can't get enough of the conversation ally, roths history of horror is now streaming on shudder, full and commercial free at shutter where the best selection and streaming genre. It's handpicked and curated by experts including me. We cover the amazing spectrum of horror thriller suspense, including breakout revenge. Essentials, like Mandy and revenge all time. Classic the changeling horror fantasy hit series, a discovery of witches and our new shutter original documentary horror Noir, a history of black horror. Start your free two week trial with promo code shudder pilot. That's promo code. S. H. U. D. D. E. R peaked. OD. History of horror uncut is a shutter original podcast hosted by Sam Zimmerman produced by Liam Finn sound designed by Jeremy Lee music composed by Michael t Holley special thanks to executive producers, Roth Kurt sangha Jonathan coke Steven Michaels, James macnabb, Alison Berkeley, and Joseph freed, as well as the ANC networks, AMC studio development and production teams will allow us at shudder to make this for shutter. Oh in shift, let nNcholas Lonzo and Robin Jones. This podcast is protected under the laws of the United States and other countries. And it's unauthorized duplication distribution or exhibition may result in civil liability in criminal prosecution country. First publication United States of America history of horror, uncut.