How to Fire People
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This episode is brought to you by the new business podcast zero type each episode focuses on a different stage in a company's life cycle and features candid interviews with leaders who have been there every step of the way people like venture investor market Andriessen and Parker Harris co founder of Salesforce subscribed to zero to PO wherever you got your podcasts. I'm Alex Bloomberg. And this is without fail. The show where I talked with entrepreneurs artists athletes, visions of all currents brought their successes and their failures. And what they've learned from both. Today, I'm talking to an HR maverick. Now. Those two words HR and maverick. They might not sound like they belong together. Beverage are exciting. They push against the rules, HR human resources it synonymous with the rules procedures bureaucracy. HR is often seen as the backwater of the corporate org. Chart, but this reputation of HR has never made sense to me because HR should be the opposite of a backwater. It's the place in any company that's most focused on the most important asset the people, my guess today would agree with that. And in fact, there's almost no one alive who has done more to change HR's reputation to elevate it to its rightful spot on the pantheon of corporate functions. Then my guest, Patty, mcchord, she's most famous for a document that she co created with her boss Reed Hastings read is the CEO of net. Flicks. Patty was his head of HR. Her official title was chief talent officer and read and Patty created something that became known as the net. Flicks culture deck a. Medical reimagining of what HR could and should be in two thousand nine read posted this culture deck which up until that point had been internal publicly online, and it caught fire. It has now been viewed tens of millions of times one of those tens of millions of us was me. I'm really excited to talk to you. Because I, you know, five years ago, I started my own company after not ever having done anything like that for my whole life. And and our company has gone through an is in the midst of some growing pains that I feel like you're you're very famous culture deck identifies. Perfectly. So I can't wait to talk to you about that experience for you. And the get interview in a free consultation. Exactly works out great figured out. In fact, there is no podcast. It's oliver's. I'm very excited to bring you my conversation with Patty, mcchord, we get deep into the ideas that she laid out in the culture deck later in the episode, but we started at the beginning before the culture deck before Patty was an HR maverick back when she was an HR traditionalist in the eighties when she had a succession of jobs at big technology companies. She worked as a recruiter she had a diversity programs for SUN Microsystems and then in the early nineties she was looking around for a new job something exciting. The little more promise, and she found out that a colleague of hers had gone to a startup those run by an impressive young CEO Patty wanted in. So she caught up her colleague. I said, you know, you should hire me to run HR for that company. And he said there's nothing I can do about it. The CEO's name is Reed Hastings, and I hung up the phone and back in those days. What you did was you dialed star six nine, and it would revile, oh, so reviled and read sister who is the receptionist answered the fun. And I said may I speak to read Hastings. Did you connect you to read as things, of course. And once you say, then I said, you don't know me. But you should because I'm gonna be I'm gonna run HR for you. And he said fine. Then, you know, get an appointment talk to you later. And when I had my interview with Reid he asked me about what my HR philosophy was. And remember at the time. I spoke fluent HR worked at SUN Microsystems and SUN Microsystems was like how many employees I was like thousands of employees. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you were writing big corporate eight, you're a corporate HR HR. Right. And so I said something like, you know, read, I believe it is it's of huge importance for each individual to draw a line to the corporate vision by being empowered and engaged whatever. And he looked at me. And he said, do you people even speak English that sentence make any sense to anyone on? The planet and I got riled up. And I said, well, you know, you don't know me what a dumb question asked me about my philosophy. Wait. So you fought back with him though, in that moment, you were like, yeah. That was a stupid question. My answer stupid. I'm gonna call your question stupid. I was like, you know, asked me a better question. Then if you want a better answer and. So I came home, and my husband said had the go, and I said, well, you know, I kind of got in a fight with C turns out did matter Reed Hastings was impressed with Patti even though she fought with him in the interview or maybe because she fought with him she wound up getting the job. Now, the company that Reed Hastings with starting back. Then was not Netflix. This was the company he started before net. Flicks is a company called pure software was a real estate holding company. Just kidding. It was a software company and pure software. It grew quickly and started buying up all its competitor's. Every time we acquired another company, we would double. So we were a hundred two hundred four hundred eight hundred sixteen hundred and that part of the story is really important because how we operated was I would take their employee handbook and our employee handbook, and I would smash together and try and create as few policies as we could that would piss off the fewest amount of people, but you know, the policy manual became two or three volume. Tmz, right. And we spent a whole lot of time in a whole lot of meetings discussing should our Email be p mcchord at or Patty dot McCord at or. It was just this endless bureaucratic policy nightmare. So I'm going to ask a question that you said read was done for asking that point had you started to develop a philosophy of HR. No, I would say not if you had to outline the philosophy of standard HR, what would that philosophy be? Well, it's different in every company, but there's a baseline that says we make the rules and people follow them. And we're in charge of, you know, changed over time in my HR career from being we make the rules and people follow them to we're protecting the company from those evil employs that might sue us to, you know, the the HR global initiative deja Moore to maybe we should make them extraordinarily happy. Let's do ropes courses and celebrations, right? Patty stayed at pure software, practicing standard HR feeling a little ambivalent about it until eventually after acquiring all these other companies, he was pure softwares turned to get acquired and acquisition can be emotionally complicated for the company getting acquired it could mean success money. But also, it can be bitter. Sweet the thing we built our baby has a new owner. We're saying goodbye it can feel like a loss. But what Patty noticed she and read they had almost none of that. Second feeling. They weren't really sad. In fact, Patty wondered at the time, why are we on Saturday about this? And she noted that lack of sadness filed it away, then she moved on. She started consulting building yourself a new career and one day she managed to read again. So I'm driving parking lot of a strip mall here in town one day in the more early in the morning, and I see read with his kids in his double stroller. And I said what are you doing? And he goes, well, I'm taking the kids for a walk. And I said to officemax. And he said, I just bought this postage meter, and you know, I found that I can mail CDs to myself, and they don't break, and I said what? Many told me the idea of Netflix DVD by mail, and I really I remember thinking I should be nice to him because it's a really ridiculous idea. Yeah. I know it was just so implausible if everybody else side happened already like all startups. Yes. Exactly. Right. If it's if it was obvious somebody would be doing it. Now, this remember was pre high speed internet and back then the way you rented movies was by going to blockbuster. Remember blockbuster is an actual store you'd walk into it. They'd rent you videos that you'd play on this thing called a DVD player read told Patty, he was building a competitor to that a movie rental company that would send you DVD's through the mail. He was calling it net. Flicks shortwhile after running into Patty and the parking lot read called her and asked her to come help him build it when he called me and asked me to come to Netflix. I said, no, it said really dumb idea and Secondly on consulting. Now, I make a bunch of money. I'm home alive. My kids know my name. I mean, why would I do this? And he said, let's create the kind of company. That if it was successful we'd still want to work there. And I'm like, wow. That's that's compelling. I said if we did that how would you know, right? How would you describe it read? And he said I'd wanna come in the door every day and solve these problems with these people. Oh, he would he would be like I would wanna come into work everyday excited to solve the problems before us with the people around the table in other perfect. Yes. And so he asked me, what would my, you know, minor von play be. And I said, wouldn't it be cool? If we were great company to be from. You know, like we were like an apple or a Microsoft, or, you know, whoever where you saw the name on your resume, and you thought, oh, that's cool. You were there for an HR maverick in the making it was enticing vision. So Patty joined read at net flicks. And for the first couple of years. It was the scrappy little company taking scrappy measures. We literally took everybody in the company out in the parking lot every Friday, and we went through basically, what was the executive dashboard. Right. We would walk them through the PNL. We talk about how many subscribers we had out with growing. How many requiring what it costs to acquire them? I mean walking everybody through the metrics of the business, and you're in the parking lot. Why because we didn't have a room big enough for everybody to be in. So every Friday, or whatever you would take the whole the company, which is like one hundred people. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just imagining you all out in the parking lot. We learned later we learned later that at one point blockbuster since buys into to the other parking lot. That was Jason to listen in. You're like who those people in the in the in the blue golf shirts. For Patty, all of it was exciting is a fast growing startup. They're trying to do something new. It's round here in the early two thousands that we get to the point on the story where the official seeds of what would become her masterpiece the culture deck, get planted. So what happened was Netflix was growing fast? But there's a lot of bad stuff that was happening to the growth for particularly in DVD by mail business. The growth was killing us. It was a terrible dilemma, right where every time we acquired a new customer we had to buy three DVD's and stamps, and envelopes and pay the labor to send it to them. So the more customers you got the more money you like each customer wasn't adding to your bottom line. It was taking away from your bottom line. Yes, they that. Because it was subscription. They would add to the bottom line over time. But we have it because you know, if the economics of the subscription model means that once your base is deep enough and wide enough to sustain your growth, then it just. Feeding the machine right, but but we hadn't gotten to that baseline economics yet God. And we weren't really sure whether or not it would work, and we had a very small window to do it before we ran out of money. And or went public, whichever came first, right? It's your plan was to go public, and you had been building toward that. But then we've been building towards that. We had been you know, on the sidelines waiting for our PO. And then the two thousand you know, September eleventh happened the Konami went to hell happened the bay area dot com, bubble burst. That was where our customers were. And say you guys were just like, oh, no all young. I'll our plans maybe up in smoke. Right. It was time for drastic action which meant layoffs then this head of HR that was patties department. She started looking at the staff figuring out who it was absolutely essential to keep and who they could let go, and they had to let go of a lot of people people who'd been there from the beginning who'd worked hard poured their hearts and souls into building the company by the end, she'd cut a third of Netflix as workforce it was agonizing and painful, but after it was all done Patty said she and read notice something they were getting twice as much done with a third. Pure people read an ice at down together and went. I'm totally excited about come into work. How about you is like, it's the most fun. I've ever had. What is it? What what is it? What it what can we can? We write down this what's happening here and see if we can go to five this into the way we operate. So you're saying that you were you had laid off all these employees, and then you and read come in, and you're realizing wait I like working here way better because we're accomplishing more with fewer people at that point. What did you start to notice that that point that the company was turning around? Oh, we could see it in the subscriber base. So. Yeah. The subscriber base was just growing organically and exponentially. And we were making so many improvements in the service, a very very rapidly. And we had assembled a really incredible team on both ends of the DVD by mail business on the the website, and the people working on the personalization algorithms, and that whole software side, and we had a really brilliant team of people sort of reinventing the back end logistic software to move DVD's through the US postal service is officially as anybody on the planet. So things were really clicking along and. We used to listen to the blockbuster earnings call on a Polycom in the conference room. Right. We'd Steph as many people in this. We could into the blockbuster innings. Call your biggest near competitor who were one hundred times bigger than we were at the very least. Right. Yes. And some went analysts asked John McCall who's Decio blockbuster. What do you think of this company? Netflix. And he says he gets mad. It goes. They are nothing. They are net. They are. Nobody people go to video stores. They'll never ever use the service, and I remember sitting around the table and conference room behind this row of people is a whiteboard that shows our customer growth, and it's that line is just up into the riot. It's practically straight up, and we looked at each other. And realized he doesn't know. Wow. And then you know, internally that was very very difficult time because the employee's were like Gillam. Guillem deal the death blow, and we're like, no, we gotta wait out. We gotta wait about lay low make it great weight about and that was our company mantra for a number of years. And that was that was one of the hardest things to do. Dude is killing him would have been like raised a ton of money and just like destroy this per bowl. And. Yeah, right. Glued at how good we are. And how bad they are. And they would have squashed like a bug. Netflix. Of course, did not get squashed like a bug instead in two thousand and two it finally went public which put it back into the category of company that Patty had worked at earlier in her career, a big public company with boards and auditors, and of course, HR manuals filled with HR policies. Now, the auditors are showing up and the Sarbanes-Oxley people are showing up and are the board. And everybody's saying, you know, you're going to be grownups. Now. It's time to be grownups time to have policies just like grown-up companies have because at that point. We had sort of gotten rid of everything, and it was when as our executive team we started saying, really. Do we really have to tell these adult brilliant hard working people to ask permission to spend money? Right. Do we really have to have them clock in and out when half the time, you know, if they work from home or work at night, or like, do we really need time off policy? So back up. Why are these policies in place in the first place because employs oh, screw if you don't watch out. And I said, well, what if I took a different tack that says they won't. Bright, most people don't come to work ago. Gonna screw my company today about you. Right, right. Most people come to work and go I wanna accomplish something. I'm proud of by the end of the day. Right. So if you do that. And then you follow the metrics and follow the money, then you'll find out if somebody misused the company's money or made a bad judgment, call right? And so rather than following the rules you now rely on people to have maturity and good judgement. And that's a big ask to big ask. But one that seemed worth making and Patty and read started expanding on this thinking started asking this question is it inevitable that now that net. Flicks is a certain size. We have to adopt the HR practices that were sick of. And so they started asking hard foundational questions about what is in fact, the role of HR, and whether there's a different better way to do it and the asking an answering of those foundational questions over the next ten years grew into. The net. Flicks culture deck, they started reimagining all sorts of things they case in policy, for example, Patty and her team realized, you know, what we don't need to babysit employees vacation requests, here's our policy. We have unlimited vacation you just have to use. It responsibly. Same deal with expenses. They would no longer track expenses and require employees to submit eight and a half by eleven sheets of paper with receipts taped on them in order to get paid back for some company expense the policy became use the company's money wisely. We trust you. Add in read continue down this path continued trying to build the HR practice for the company. They wanted to work at a company that did more and better work with fewer people a company that had nimble teams with clear goals in front of them. And they soon realized that building that company meant reimagining one more thing something they'd come to believe standard HR did very poorly. They had to re imagine firing people. That's after the break. This episode is brought to you by the new. Podcast. Hello monday. Hello Monday is about work. How to like it change it? And maybe even how to love it. Did you know that according to one the average person will spend more than ninety thousand hours at work for the course of their lifetime. That's ten years of your life on the clock. So thinking about ways to make your job more fulfilling. It's probably worth the effort. Hello Monday is a show from the editorial team at Lincoln hosted by tech writer Jessi Hempel each week. Jesse sits down with featured guests to investigate the role workplace in our lives and uncover lessons. You can apply to your own career. So whether you're five hours into your first job or five hundred hours away from retirement, you can be ready to take on Monday and the rest of your workweek make your career at work for you. Subscribe to Hello Monday. Wherever you listen to podcasts. This episode is brought to you by Uber rewards, a new rewards program mover. Here's how it works. What did you sign up? You'll start earning points for every eligible dollar. You spend Uber trips. Uber eats points. You can eventually turn into Guber cash and other perks with Uber pool. For example, you'll get one point for every eligible dollar you spent so that ten dollar car pool to work. That's ten points. You'll earn even more when you upgrade the way you ride Uber. Next writers received two points for every eligible dollar and Hoover black. Passengers get three points per eligible dollar. So a fifteen dollar ride from the airport that can add up to fifteen thirty or forty five points, depending on which service you choose. You don't even need to go anywhere to earn points food deliveries from Hoover eats, also earn one point for every eligible dollar. So you can earn points without even leaving the house. You get five dollars. Uber cash for every five hundred points you earned for terms into learn more about all the ways, you can earn rewards. Uber dot com slash rewards. That's Uber dot com slash rewards program. Terms for details at Uber dot com slash rewards. Welcome back to without fail and my conversation with Patty mcchord, the former chief talent officer Ed net. Flicks the net flicks culture deck the thing that Patty was putting together a little by little as the company grew it became famous when Netflix CEO Reed Hastings decided to post it online. You didn't even consult, Patty. I he just uploaded it Typos and all and became wildly popular Sheryl Sandberg said it, quote may well be the most important document ever to come out of the valley. And there's one section in particular that spoke to me when I read it starts on page forty five and it points out a dynamic that felt very familiar as companies grow. So does their complexity and its complexity increases things start to feel chaotic and that creates pressure to start implementing rules and procedures. So if you're a company that wants to grow and wants to avoid chaos, a certain amount of corporate bureaucracy starts to feel inevitable. But according to Patty's culture deck, it's not companies can grow while. Avoiding both chaos and bureaucracy. They can have it all and they can do it by hiring high performance people high performance people the deck says can operate without as many rules and having a high performing company that runs informally that helps you attract more high performance people because that's the kind of culture they like. And that sounds great, right? But there's this one other part of it occasionally as you grow someone who started out being excellent stops being excellent. The person who built the brilliant prototype. Maybe isn't the best at running the entire division. That prototype grew into. And so you have to be ready to fire people the culture dot says that at net flicks. They will fire people for the simple reason that they're just not excellent enough anymore or they're excellent. At a thing that the company no longer needs. And this is brutal right starting a startup as a foxhole experience. It feels like you're part of a family and Patty knew that. And so she and read had to come up with a new metaphor net. Flicks. It wasn't a family. It's a team a pro team that hires and develops great players. But also lets them go when they can no longer perform teams and families both connote cooperation and community. But unlike families, you can get cut from a team, Patty. She got really good at cutting people from the team she's had this conversation's millions of times. What was the first one? Oh god. I don't know. I mean, it goes so far like the first tell me one early when that really stands out where you were just sort of like, oh my God. I have to have this conversation. And I don't want to. I'd take somebody on my team may be you know, somebody who worked really really hard and sorted their resumes and made nice stacks and hit pass them out. And didn't really understand the technology of what they were recruiting for the person that they were talking to and when I hired him. I just need somebody to work hard and be friendly. And now, and now I needed somebody who really needed to understand what this team was trying to build and who didn't roll their eyes and go oh, God engineers was so weird. Right. I needed somebody to go. You know, what I just somebody to spontaneously say to me, you know, I did today petty. I set next to somebody writing code for an hour. And I watched him. Is amazing. What they do here. I went to play the role. I'm that person. In the HR department. That was starting resumes, and you have been sort of like fearing the conversation, but knowing that it has to come. Yep. And you're not gonna door. What do you say to me? I say I think you've kind of the vibe that I'm not particularly happy about the way things are going, and I have. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh what I have not. And then I'm like, okay. So I haven't been very clear about so here's the team that I'm trying to build, and they need to have people that really understand the technical people in understand what they're doing. And what their timelines are and what's important to them. And I don't get a good sense that you know that. But I do Patty, I do I what gives you the sense that. I don't know that. Okay. So when you're in the engineering organization right now that you support can you tell me what the top three technical issues that are facing them are. Something about latency periods. I don't know. Okay. So tell me what late periods are, I don't know. Okay. So that's kind of problem. But you never told me that was a problem. Okay. I'm telling you now. And I'm late, right? I need to I need to own. I need to own telling you that. I probably should have told you this affair time ago. And we're I'm kind of under the gun because we got a higher lot of people to solve this latency problems very quickly. So if I were to start over again with you walking in the door, knowing what you know. I'm not sure I'd hire you. Patty says that having a conversation like this as difficult as it sounds is way better than what you did in her previous career in traditional HR. Let's use the example, we just did. I would put you on a performance improvement plan a ninety day performance improvement plan. And I don't really think you can do it. Anyway. Right. What really want to do is get rid of you? So every Wednesday morning at eleven o'clock. I'm going to sit down with you. And I'm improved that you're incompetent and writing. Now every Tuesday night, I'm gonna drink a lot. And so are you and by the third Tuesday night third Wednesday morning, you're just gonna start crying when you walk in the door, and probably I will too because it's going to be a really horrible conversation. Right. So not only are you an eye miserable. Because we both know at some point. It's a farce, right? But you're bad performance has gone to hell or you're trying desperately to do something that you don't know how to do. Right. So you have three months of severance already in your pocket. Instead of wasting that three months of time for you the person and the rest of the team, right? I can sit down and go I gotta make the call. I'm in charge. And I don't think you're gonna make it and I am not going to say up to fail. And I want you to take what you've learned here and find the right job at the right place for you. But it's not here. Can you? So let's not do this. Let's not spend the next three months doing it. Here's a check for three months Oury. And that's already in your budget. Right. That is you're a good. No. It took me. It took me years. I will. I mean, I really wasn't HR professional it was. But those were like when I started paying attention to. I'm the one that was in all those meetings. And I'm thinking why lying to this person? We both know this is a game. It's so cruel. This is crueler than saying goodbye is it you've now done it both ways you've had experience and obviously every firing much. So is you? Yeah. You can. But it's part of the whole system that I'm describing to you in the bigger system says, hey, you know, what Bunka hired you because you're an incredible builder and for the past four years, you have built something that will stand the test of time you should be. So proud of yourself. You're done. We're done. We're not going to build another one of those. Right. And this new thing that we're building you actually don't know how to do. But there's plenty of companies in the world who could use your expertise. Let's figure out how we do that for you. Right. Coming up this conversation, the Patty McCord had with so many other people someone has it with her. That's after the break. Hi, this is our Goldman one of the hosts of reply all and I have a favor to ask you. We do a segment on the show called super tech support where we try to help people solve the most confounding technical problems in their lives. And I'm looking for new super texts work as is to investigate. So if you have a problem that's bigger than just calling tech support, restarting your, computer or changing your password. I want to hear about it. Send us an Email at S T S at Gimblett media dot com. Thanks. Welcome back to without fail. My guest HR maverick patio. Mccord had a long run at net flex. She was there from nineteen ninety eight until twenty twelve and her departure came at a pivotal moment for the company. Netflix had been through this bruising time where decided to split the DVD by mail part of its company from its streaming business in the process it hiked membership fees by sixty percent and subscribers revolted, not only that but house of cards was on the horizon and that meant a new future for net flicks. The company was pivoting to become a content creator. Patty, who is really good at hiring. Engineers didn't have the skill set for this new world of entertainment. So Reed Hastings the CEO of net. Flicks had a conversation with her read did exactly what I just described to you to you. Yeah. If I walked in the door tomorrow for the company that I'm building when I would I hire you. Maybe maybe not right. Maybe it's time to draw a new card. Did you know that it was coming? Oh, yeah. I mean that'd been a rough year. Yeah. So I mean is anybody completely prepared for that conversation? No was is prepared as anybody. Yeah. I was I said, of course, did you understand? Did you have the feelings of like I want to argue back with him? I wanna I wanna stop this. Of course, I'm human. I mean, I remember saying to read them like what if I leave in something great habits, and I won't be here. He's like something greatest going to happen. You won't be here. Did you see yourself from both the reason that I'm interested in is this is there's two reasons one you are one of the very few people who has like who was in the position of going through the thing that you had been on the other side of for many, many many many times and at I'm just curious about like that perspective as like somebody who both knows what's going those probably exactly what Reid is going to say. But then you're hearing the words instead of saying them, I'm just curious about like what that felt like what I was surprised by was the profound sadness that I wouldn't be part of it anymore. That that was the emotion that surprised me not any of the other ones anger in the crankiness and the fighting back and all that. I mean, that's just human nature. Right. And we both kind of knew that was going to happen. So we just sorta had to work through that. It was more about the feeling left out. Yeah. Did you think at the time that that was happening that like, oh, the this this culture that I have built is? Now has now turned on me. Sure. Of course, you're like why whatever it that dug in the first place not. No, no, no. So so we had a ritual reading I going back forever. We'd take comedy Sundance. And then he, and I would get together, and we'd have bottle of wine together got progressively better. By the way over the years. Yes. The why and the conversation we would have is. Am I the right person for what's in front of us next year? And we both of us had it. So very very early on. We had this conversation where he said in front of a bunch of people, you know, mcchord IKEA fire you and hot minute or something like that. And I brought him in a room. And I said, hey newsflash. I could quit and hot minute. You know, like, I I am a profession, right? You're not the only game in town. And did you not hurts my feelings when you say that he's all come on? Really what hurt your feelings? My hurts. My feelings makes me feel bad. And I'm talking I'm we're having this conversation in like nineteen ninety nine and I said really read I can't imagine anything worse than like publicly failing. Like, if you don't think I'm the one, you gotta tell me, and he goes, okay? Wonder one condition like why is it is one condition with you? And he goes you tell me never done this before. So every year in January at Sundance, we'd sit down and go. Well, what do you think are the pros and cons? But when we when we knew the DVD die mail was gonna take off. I'm like, you realize that the vast majority of the employees they're going to be working in warehouses. He's like, yeah. I'm like there's going to be drivers all over. He just. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, I don't know what minimum wage is read. I mean, I think they have to be bonded, right? Like, I mean, I can go work this stuff out. But he's like God. Right. You'd probably suck this. Okay. Well, if it turns out to be that that's critically important, then it's going to be somebody else. Right. But it's hard to for me to believe we're gonna get somebody else. Like that who really understands, you know, a personalization of them. So go see if you're gonna find somebody to help you run that. And then let's just check in with each other. If that's working out got it. So I mean, those conversations were not. They were very they were very straightforward. Yeah. The wind helped. It's interesting though, I feel like the thing that you the thing that people come away like there's there's two mistakes that that you sort of make us leader in their their sort of the opposite ends like, and I think I was very much. I think when you become a leader for the first time, or like, you know, sort of find yourself at the head of a company or as I did you. It's really scary to like I wanted to make everybody feel good. I'm a people pleaser. And that works for you for a lot of worked for me for a lot of my career. And then it was like, it was really terrifying to like have make people upset, and so I think there's that. But then I think the other way that it goes like gotta do this business. And so I'm just gonna like harden myself and just do it, and I'm not gonna show any emotion. And then and then that's the other option, and what you're saying is sort of like, there's a way ground. Yes. There's some middle ground. You can do it with love and respect. Right. You know, it's funny because I talk a lot about how companies are team not family. And and I meet a lot of people who say to me why you're in lot nicer. Then I thought you'd be you know, you're actually kind of warm, and so are you in read friends in now, I say your team, not a family and families the wrong metaphor? But I'm not saying that you can't make the most important friendships of your life at work. Yeah. I mean, I've done twenty five years now long that gosh, I'm thinking how old are kids are, but but we're we're friends for life. And so now, I look at what's happening with Netflix. And I'm just thrilled to death. That wraps up my conversation with Patty mcchord. She tells the story of writing the net flicks culture deck in her book, powerful, building, a culture of freedom, and responsibility. If you want to check out the net, flicks culture tech for yourself will provide a link in the show notes without fail is hosted by me and produced by Molly Mesic, edited by me and Devin Taylor music and mixing by Bobby Lord you like without fail. Leave us a review tell your friends about it. And thanks for listening. Hey before we go. We have a favorite ask. We would love it. If you took just a few minutes to answer some survey questions for us. It would really help us out good without fail dot show slash survey seem small, but it really does help us sponsors who support the show. 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