FTP111: Ken Wilber - What's The Problem With The World Today?
Hey and welcome to future thinkers dot org podcast about the evolution of Technology Society and consciousness. I'm Mike and I'm you know if can you to the show and you want to get a list of our favorite books popular episodes and join our community. Go to future thinkers dot org slash start. I and welcome back to the future. Thinkers thinkers podcast. They were starting a series of interviews with Ken Wilber. He's an author of over twenty five books and the creator of integral theory which has been one of the. Most influential frameworks works for understanding the stages of human development for that he's been sometimes called the Einstein of consciousness studies. This is a multi part interview and then this first part we talk about integral theory from historical perspective and the current stages of societal development can also offers his comments on Jordan Peterson and his interpretation of a weakening and Greta Thunberg and her climate activism for all the links and shown us from this episode Gutu Future Thinkers Dot Org slash. One hundred. Ten can thank you so much for joining us. We're very happy to have your show by pleasure. So we wanted to start you off by asking your view you on what is happening in the world right now with the meaning crisis the climate crisis that seems to be emerging it seems that humanities and some sort of a transition. How do you see it from the Integral Lens? And would you think are some of the solutions to this crisis. While heart of the difficult I mean if you look at the at the inaugural model what it attempts to do is it takes. It looks at enormous number of of other models and attempts to see what the essential elements are that you can find in all of them so oh for example if you're just looking at stages of human development and these are studied by developmental psychology elegy for example then in a book called Integral Psychology. I actually analyzed over a hundred different developmental models it and then use the commonalities. Among those marvel's she suggests certain just major stages of Human Development Alabama and so that's what the model does Just across the line and all sorts of of numerous areas including meditation. Are there any stages is meditation enlightenment. Awakening Developmental Psychology Sociology. That good the true the beautiful and on and on and on and it's it's it's an unending framework because it says whenever you find some other model that includes areas era concluding then definitely wouldn't include those areas and so that's why it's an unending Twad And and that's why things like Meta modernism. Don't out do that. Inigo bottle that just another easily included aspect of overdoing but one of the main difficulties that we find. Is that if you do look at really centrally import. MM models of human potential human reality in Kim Development and you try to determine what the really important important elements are of those one of the things you find is what we call the interior quadrants of the interior realities news and this does mean things light stages of human development or states of consciousness including things like Satori enlightenment awakening metamorphosis and so on these sorry Alec Kids that the West is tended to exclude for a couple of hundred years now and it really all started in a sense of the Western enlightenment. which in some ways was an extremely extremely significant historical development and it really gives marks the emergence on a on a fairly large cultural scale of a significantly pick currently higher stage of human development when it came to the cultural leaning edge and that was a stage that moved from once were more ethnocentric or for example? You had rights if you were a Christian but and if you're a Christian Christian in the Middle Ages and you died and you're good Christian thin you would go to heaven live on the right hand of God and Jesus forever if you were a Hindu or Buddhist. You'RE GONNA burn in Hell. You don't have any rights but with the merchants of the Western enlightenment. PHILOSOPHERS START I just say well wait a minute but what is this you have to be of this group to have rights and if these other groups you don't have rights and so they started introducing producing. I mean actually papers and books written with the title like the Universal Rights of human beings and so oh that was not just ethnocentric. You didn't have to be just a Christian just to choose who or just a Hindu. This is something that all human beings had add these rights all human beings had just by virtue of being a human being so these were world. centric these are universal rights. Not just not just a centric. centric rights so as individuals began studying reality from that point of view. One of the things that they also started doing was measuring reality and according to Alfred North Whitehead Modern in science was actually invented by independently and simultaneously fight to individuals. WHO's names we all know One was scholar. Leo and one was Kepler and they both came up with the idea that quote the laws of nature are to be best understood through measurement trauma and so it Kepler measured planetary motion and came up with the laws of planetary motion and Galileo mission. I should earthly motion came up laws of earthly motion and then a genius. Isaac Newton tied those get with his universal flaws with gravity. And so now. The enlightenment itself wasn't inherently reductionist according according to author Lovejoy who's sort of the acknowledged expert on a framework called the great chain of being which is the single angle most common worldview held by the most number of human cultures in history and according to author love joy. The first I most common concept in the Western enlightenment with the French philosopher called the system a lot nature the great system of nature sure it was a unified whole John Locke actually called it the great interlocking order so this is a very systems. Holistic do you point but the second most common viewpoint according to lovejoy wasn't keyed the great chain of being and the Christian version of that you can find it in Buddhism Hinduism and so on but the Christian version a simplified one is just now body by soul aw spirit and reality is held me these interlocking order of higher and higher dimensions from the lowest to the highest and so that it was a very very common notion in the western but what started happening when people started measuring and notice Kepler measure Galileo measured Newton took those measurements and work them together. Universal laws is that it's much much easier to a measure madder than it is bodily feelings or mental concepts are illuminated soul or ultimate spirit. And so without really worrying about what was happening with the Western enlightenment. Even though we had these worlds century viewpoints as we just kept measuring reality measuring realty measuring reality. We actually started reducing it to it was still thought of as an interlocking whole it was just the interlocking whole of exteriors of material realities and so in the integral framework. We have these. These things called quadrants and they're just different perspectives. You can look anything through and they involve. You can look at something from the interior you can look at sending the exterior you can look at it from an individual interview and you can look at it from a collective going view and those actually give four very very real perspectives and those perspectives. You can find just an enormous number of realities. They are for example the basis of first second and third person pronouns which you find in all major world religions the basis of the good the true who and the beautiful so these are these. These are not very common but what started happening as increasingly measured all of these the things is that you would get the material component the material aspect that went with these other quadrants entrance. So if for example you're looking at your own consciousness and you figure out this connected with the brand then just start looking at brand neuro it all and you start looking at the actual anatomy of the brain and to this day in consciousness studies. We have two major very competitive schools of thought and one is consciousness can only be investigated and research by directly directly contacting consciousness itself and others. You have to look within. You have the introspective yet to take a first person approach to consciousness. They're great number of experts. That believed that and certainly almost all. It's great meditative or contemplative traditions. Maintain that you have to go in your own consciousness. Your own awareness If you just learn quantum mechanics for example which is third person objective approach. That won't get you in my mind. Yes you just looking at third person objective mathematical equations. You're not looking at your own awareness a your own in your own consciousness business but there is the second major school because we've done so much research neuro physiology and the brain structure the second major school of consciousness. The studies maintains a consciousness just is a product of the brain and the brain of course is something you can actually see. I mean if you cut your skull open and look look you'll see the brain looks like a crumpled grapefruit and and that's the third person objective viewpoint and that's what most natural sciences this is deal with this when you measure something is much easier to measure brand neuro physiology than it is to measure say a mental intention to do so so what we started to get from the enlightenment was we did have this move up to rational national world centric universal approaches. But after about a century or so reality was reduced to more. I suggest exterior material reality and so and that's happened We started to downplay things like well with the good to true in the beautiful that's morals science and art and the aesthetic and and the morals are mentioned tended to start giving downplayed is the only thing that was really real was added objective. Third Person Truth and so that's what we were looking physics ordnace and so we started listening to biology for and and so and so we moved up a stage or so in any sort of major developmental adult mental sequence and that was good by the way it was also why we really didn't get rid of slavery and tell about one hundred fifty fifty years ago because even though prior to the enlightenment all almost all of the Great Meditative and Contemporary Two UH systems had emerged from Zen Buddhism to Christian mysticism. Almost all of the Saudi had slavers and the hats slavery because the process of waking up or having a Satori and enlightenment realization. That's a different process. The actual developmental process of growing and those go through various stages gene variation chain Gibson's assumes version of those stages of growing is archaic to Magic to mythic to rational to pluralistic to integrate and so it was only as it moves from ethnocentric stages which had had experiences of waking up and many of them had CODA. Fai those does I mean this was the way to get an ultimate reality was have the experience of waking up an interview by the way includes that as a very very important part of our Oberle human potential. But that's separate from developmental growing up and the relatively independent you can be high on one and fairly low in another other so humanity had had these experiences a waking up but they still had sleeper because they were having waking up but not as much growing up for developmental villa mental moving forward. That's what happened with a Western enlightenment. Is that we move up. A stage in growing. Didn't change much waking up. As a matter of fact I sort of went down a little bit but what we did do when we got up to world century is we looked around and said wait a minute. What one person Jason is owning another person? That's not right. That's very bad. Shame on you. And so in literally one hundred year period from about about seventeen seventy to eighteen seventy there in recent slavery was outlawed in every major rational industrial country on the face of the plan. Nothing like that had ever happened so it was moving up a stage just at large. It didn't mean that individuals. I couldn't do that or sometimes even higher but for culture at large this was a big shift. And that's really what the western Lightman was about. And that's what. The modern modern Universal World Center Democratic Ideals started to come for those stages of development but we were leading out the the interiors. Those weren't something that we were paying that much attention to and as a matter of fact a lot of schools of thought Things like the blank slate of the human mind is there's just nothing going on in there. The only thing that's going on in interior mine is something something he was put into it from the exterior sensors and that sorta that we didn't really discover these stages of growing up. It's almost like slavery we didn't discover these stages growing up into literally around one hundred years ago and it was done by a very brilliant American can psychologist named James Mark Baldwin and by the way because we only discover these stages like archaic magic agic the rational pluralistic integral super integral because we only discovered those about a hundred years ago. That's much to recent to be included in any major religion most of which are several hundred separable thousand years old and so you don't find these stages of growing up in any major spiritual system anywhere in the world at all and so that's another reason that at an integral approach you really have up to look carefully at all these different areas because there's an enormous amount of truth out there but most schools truth just latch onto one little area so we have a lot of schools of waking up but none of them understand growing up and so they don't understand that you can have a profound waking up his spirits and still have of slaves whoops. That's that can't be good on so this is a long sort of Prefix to the whole question about what's the main problem. Today's world and sometimes have to sort of give a little bit of a of a forward like that because because integral approaches are well. Now I mean if you go to an average college professor anywhere in the Western in world and ask them what are some of the major stages that all human beings go through as they grow and develop. They'll look at you with the blank stare. They have no idea what those stages are even though you can see a hundred models of them in in the book That I did as as I explain. And by the way all one hundred of those models included in charts in the back of the books you can actually see is a hundred different models donelson developmental psychology these are very real stages of development and also he asked the average college professor. What's enlightenment what's awakening the problem? Most common words in the New Testament which was originally written in Greek with the word metamorphosis. And that's what it was. It was just profound change in consciousness in having this experience at unity consciousness or divine oneness or being one of the entire universe universe. That's waking and that's very different from growing up again. Those two are relatively independent. So part of the difficulty is that in today's world we're really unaware of a lot of these major profound areas of of human potential and even the areas. The deal call themselves human potential. Don't really cover all the potential this out there many of them as matter of fact don't even deal with growing up stages even those those are incredibly real and probably the single largest it just determine it of the world view that an individual will have and how actually look at the world so we look at something like let's say climate change and you're looking at these stages of development Echo along with that one of the reasons and that the world has not moved for Even though the science has been fairly clear for a couple of decades decades and we still really aren't doing much at all and one of the reasons is that the those models that do study Eddie developmental psychology juice study these stages of growing up in all human beings go through when they study overall world. Oh population what they find is is about. Seventy percent of the world's population is ethnocentric or lower lower stages of development and other words that world century Universal Stage at the Western enlightenment wrought. That's only about thirty percent are the world's population and so individuals that are at ethnocentric or lower. Actually have an. It's not a judgment because they can continue growing in development. If you add epicenter her Laura. You'll have a hard hard time actually thinking about a truly truly global or universal or world. centric reality it. Just sorta hear the words and kind of run at your mind but you won't have a real okay grass with no. That means you something here and it will affect somebody in Australia or you do something and hungry. It will affect somebody in Bolivia it. This is a world world wide fan and with seventy percent of the population not even understanding global warming because global global doesn't quite register That's one of the main reasons that even though we have a very very large number of democracies in this planet we still don't have clearly a fifty percent population guests the problem and an issue. But we see this happen really across the board and if we went through Some of the other areas and in an integral overall framework we include not only things like growing up and waking up include. Things like showing up an opening up and cleaning and these are all. They're they're very important areas. That really have major major impact. There are major determinant of how people see the world how they see each other how they interact with their own lives their own realities and the in conclusion of that is that the it's very very rare that any human being and certainly any group of human beings has a truly comprehensive or inclusive or integral viewpoint. That's just very very rare and because of that we're always leading things out and if you're leaving major components of something out now if you're leaving the wheels off your car for example even though you've got an engine and four seasons stairwell it's not gonNa work and so we we keep trying to solve a lot of these global issues and we keep not doing very well and certainly What any body? That is. Sort of studying intro model and has some sort of sense about the number of truths and realities that are actually out there. As a real component of reality anybody gets a sense of that one of the first things that they would save is sort of underlies. A lot of the world's major problems Is that. We're still not taking a very comprehensive view of our situation. We're still not taking a very inclusive or integral or genuinely league. Systemic you of our problems and that's a real issue it and as I said if you don't even really get a lot of these elements from a most college professors today. That's supposed to be the ones that know. So if we can't even get them the Less than educated Can't be expected to do to to do much better her. It's a real issue it's true. It's a genuine issue. The brand new future thinkers members portal. Now live develop your sovereignty and self knowledge with our in depth forces get access to our weekly since making calls joined the QNA's with past podcast guests and much more become a future thinkers member today today at future thinkers dot org slash members to stay up to date with new episodes subscribe to future thinkers on your favorite platform and leave us a review or alike. It really helps out the show. And don't forget to share this episode on social media so with that said do you think that there are better ways that the people can collaborate on cooperate with each other to solve this. Maybe by if we can move everybody to the integral stage in time in to solve some of these global issues than can people may be recognized that others have a perspective. That's also valid and cooperate. Somehow will you know it it. It comes to my mind actually the the messaging and popularity of Greta therm Thornburgh and the fact that you know a sixteen year old girl can can be at a certain developmental level that speaks to the rest of the world and kind of launches that message forward. I don't exactly know what level she's at but sixteen years old wouldn't indicate indicate extremely high would but it's interesting that that level of messages that were getting from the types of people are at this seemingly lower. Oh words level of development and they're taking on well Keep in mind that That what happens has she you start to get into these higher word abuses world century. meaning that they have some sort of understanding of global situation and all humanity not but there are actually most developmental models. There are at least three or even four stages of world century that just just keep getting more and more inclusive and and more detailed and it's one of the confusing aspects suspects about development. Is that when you really sit down and start studying the stages the people go through that you really do start to understand some very very specific kinds of distinguishing features between these different stages of development. And how they're going to see the world and and so one of the things that you find is that starting with a level of development that we call orange but it's the level that was first. I emerge significant way during the Western enlightenment and It does have a rational orientation so that's also during the Western enlightenment because of the rational empirical impatient that almost all of the modern sciences sciences were invented because they're coming from this more rational stage of development but then there's there are are several more stages and these really. They're not obvious at all until you actually look at the studies. It's okay here's what is looking like if you're at orange and we have just the standard developmental model oh most of them had around six to eight major stages of development and in development by the way just sort of keeps continuing annually. There doesn't seem to be another stage. They just get rarer and rarer and rarer up higher and higher go so we'll see where that ends ends up but most models just starting with that orange have at risk three or four higher stages so people hit that Orange World centric I global stage in today's developed countries. The research in an adolescence. They they can use the possibility of doing that. So somebody liked credit easily. Reach over center stage and those real center states is by the way are the ones that are relatively rare worldwide again. Only about thirty percent of the population is done that but I think what Greg is doing is what that thirty percent at whatever stage. They're at they recognize of global issue. They recognize the problem and they're frustrated but nothing being done Not only by the government in some ways by the seventy percent. They just doesn't get the problem and show when somebody like that comes along Mesa very emotional very very tich notion and And and people agree with that. Then it's going to be very moving her them and they're gonNA find it very very They're gonNA find her to be speaking profound truths on. They might find it a little bit surprising because she is so relatively young. But it's it's not a surprise for most adult mental models What what is so surprising? Being in a certain sense is given the Any human being born in any sort of developed culture around the world today has access to at least these a major stages of growing up. What's amazing thing about that is so how relatively slowly human beings get to some of those? Higher statements like most models will also make a break between what's called First Tier and second tier development and I heard development goes all the way through orange and includes oranges world centric an includes one above that and the Orange Bowl center was also the foundation of what we call of a journal and then in the nineteen sixties another stage started to merge. And it's what we end up calling host majority and stage age. We Call Green. Those are all still. I hear stages because a definition of a first tier stage is when you're at that stage you think that your for you of the world and only your view is correct and everybody else is wrong and so that just contributes to the sort it abroad. Disagreements that you'll beings have with each other but then there's this sort of monumental leap to US call second tier and Claire Our graves. Who is Just Genius Pioneer in Development Studies. He called it cataclysmic and quote a monumental leap of meaning and what happens is second year is and most mammals have about two or so those stages somebody a second tier will will understand that all of the stages at first here are necessary but not complete in themselves and others Anderson that these are unfolding holdings of a single broad human development. And so you can't just look orange. Kansas look at a lower stage and say oh. That's entirely wrong. Aw I disagree entirely. All of these stages are needed and we have to go through all of them. Anyway if you're going to get any of the higher stages you can't skip stages that's sort of the point. It's like you go from letters to words two sentences the paragraphs and you can't go from letters to sentences inskip words it just doesn't work and that's the way developmental stages are but what you find at second tier and this is why a large number of developmental start using terms like integrated or integral for second tier. They integrate all of the true but partial stages that came earlier. And so that's a that's a really profound type of shit again that those are very very rare and the percent of the population. If about thirty thirty percent reaches orange will center the percentage reach about the eighth stage on most models That's where my round Ciro Point. Five percent so Unfortunately that's a little bit problematic. But I I think the most problematic issue and this just has to do with growing up remember we still have waking up and we have opening with showing up may have cleaning up but but one of the major problems is growing up is certainly in western cultures for example. We don't have any trouble understanding. I think there's something like twelve grades of elementary school people from First Grade Second Grade Third Grade Tenth Grade Eleventh Grade Twelfth Grade and they graduate high school and they may or may not go on to college. But it's it's not an embarrassing. It's not a put-down anything to say. Somebody's in eighth grade. They just. They're in eighth grade and they'll likely go on and being the ninth and Tenth Eleventh Twelfth Grade but once we get control grade about eighteen years old then all adults higher than that. They're all the same. They just stop that kind. China growth and development and so we don't have more grades of adult development and in fact that's exactly what all one hundred of these developmental models have found is development continues into adulthood. And that's what makes it so absolutely fascinating because first of all not only most college. Professors don't have a very good understanding of that. They certainly don't know the stages that are available from but people at large have almost no conception up this and so one of the first fence that house to happen before we can say what you recommending about well. Can't people understand Dan that there are people at different stages of development. That's a very very important item. Understand and as a matter of fact I would think is one one of the most important things that inanity has to do is to come to that kind of understand. And so that's going you to take this realization that development continues throughout your life and one of the things that you can have available to. You is the knowledge that wherever you are when you graduate high school or college or whatever it is you can keep growing there. A truly are higher stages of consciousness stages of development that are available to you. And if you don't know about those you're being cheated you you're actually being cheated out of your own higher humanity and that's deeply unfair and certainly unfair to the vast majority of the world's rose population that are stuck as some of these lower stages. I mean it's really just criminal in in a broad sense I mean it's just horrible so one of the major things we need to look at is how can we just introduce this. General notion that humanity continues is growth and development beyond It's adolescence because right now people are so just an adolescent mentality. And that's not that's not good so exactly how that that's has yet to be it determine but it certainly something that even if humanity large doesn't know about certainly any individuals are looking to increase their own growth and awareness and consciousness needs to know there are a lot more ways that they can continue growing and they in not only in expand their consciousness to growing up they can expand it through waking up and some of these other areas as well and the problem again is the most models of reality include very few of those even know the amount of evidence or each of those five areas that I mentioned is absolutely overwhelmed. I it's just not the niable and so that's what makes These kinds of realities so significant al just a quick example. I'm sure you'll know Jordan Peterson. Yeah he was talking about this whole issue of waking up of having this experience of enlightenment or awaken or metamorphosis or Satori where you go from feeling that you're just sort of individual What Alan Alan? Watts called a skin encapsulated. Ego and that narrow identity distraught. And you feel that you're literally one with everything that's rising you're one of the entire universe entire universes arising within you as a matter of fact but that's very very common experience in most of the great pass of a waking up around the world for everything from Padang to him to his to send good as Christian mysticism and so it tends to be an area that modernity and post modernity have left out. It's it's just very rare that people know very much about that let alone that. They're actually practicing something that will help them have a waking Experience so Jordan Peterson Whether you like him or not he he. At least generally has some sort of evidence to back up what he say And so he was talking about this waking up consciousness and he was contrasting lasting it with our ordinary limited narrow consciousness. So he's referring to these assorted these two major types of consciousness that human beings have and he said more or less direct quote. The evidence for these states is overwhelming the fact that they both exist is not deniable and that was the specific prince to us is not denial not means the waking up to experience the evidence that is overwhelming. It's not denial literally. But how many colleges when you go to and learn a practice of waking up at that nanny so is that I mean all of the cultures that have introduced waking up every single go one of them have made a distinction between ultimate truth and relatives. Truth and relative. Truth is something that you can get from. Science for example if the water has two hydrogen Oxygen Atom that's relative truth and these paths of Awakening of liberation. They don't deny relatives but they will say the only spirit of ultimate truth is this waking up. Experience this Satori experience is in that state. You're actually experiencing appearance in what's often called a ground beef. Just an ultimate absolute ground being everything is a manifestation of that round the being and when you have that it kind of Satori experience or waking up experience ninety five percent of the people who have those experiences will say it's an experience of absolute reality. I have no doubt whatsoever. And that's what's so amazing about those experiences and that by the way is the only practice schorr experience or consciousness that human beings have ever cleaned gave ultimate truth. There's no mistaking and it's just not deniable. The thefts what they do and that those experiences are present so we have used realities of just from what we looked at so far growing up an waking the existence of both of these is just not denial and so the question becomes well. How many people are aware just those those too even Nassar's not very many how many world leaders know about either one of them not very many How many thought leaders in any discipline know about them? Not that many. So we're ignoring ultimate truth and restoring the one way that adults can continue to grow and develop through growing up so recovering waking up work nor growing up and by the way we don't do much better with opening opening up and showing up in an cleaning up those are all so incredibly important realities and they're just white upper most people's heads heads even though it can. The evidence is absolutely overwhelming. But these things as that's one of It's one of the reasons if people who just even so to stumble on to some sort of integral approach can get very excited about it Because it's showing them realities -ality that are very real part of them that they have full access to but they had no idea was there I mean I remember When I first learn that there was this practice called Zen Buddhism and that it was aiming for distinct called Satori and I've never heard anything like that and I'm seventeen years old and this was back in the sixties so meditation wasn't even really understood much at that time And I read a three volume set of books called. Aw Essays and San Buddhism by a gun empty Suzuki and they kept talking about this Satori then and it became very clear to me that there was this consciousness. This awareness called Satori and it really did show you something. Unbelievably important about yourself and about reality. I mean it was actually type of ultimate truth and you had access to this. You could actually experience that for yourself so for about three days by response was. Oh Wow and I'm happy to find this out. I was infuriated. I was absolutely suit and rage and I was enraged because I kept saying. Why didn't anybody tell me this? This is almost twenty years old and I don't know ultimate truth out tap just absolutely and then I went out and found his end. Masters started practising practising Zen. So it's not gotten much better even though most people know what meditation is and so on but if you look at classes for yoga now it's always billed as you know it'll relaxing psyche. Help depression help. Insomnia can even help lose weight. It'll help you at work and EH. Meditation was never invented to do any one of those things where ever it emerged. It all had the same goal. It was indebted to discover God. And that's it. That's what meditations for that. You don't even hear that much When you sign up for Yoga class so we haven't gotten that much better and certainly if you look at the overall integral framework One of the things we WANNA do is is is really just. Open our minds to these kinds of truce. That are out there. And by the way the only constant truce that we include in an inner row framework art art indeed once we have overwhelming amount of evidence for these are not just my ideas So these are very important. Then the whole framework itself. The whole idea is okay. Now you've got the point of how to look for all these other different kinds of truth so keep going. I mean don't stop go on and do something like Meta modernism. Sola mean all that is absolutely fun. And that's what the framework is is is meant to view as soon as we see something else it's important being included then we usually steal it because that's what we try to do. Include everything anything. That's real but that's supposed to be used it. And and what we found in appearance you'd Journal on specifically this type of integral framework. We call it off. Make you is that at last count over sixty shuman disciplines had been reinterpreted according to this interval frame so he had inter art into business integral psychotherapy in a row Kant with theory into a history and so on their sixty other disciplines that realized that you can take all of these other elements these are all real elements and you can reinterpret the discipline your in including all those other elements and it'll it'll profound change and what you're doing and the types of truth that you can acknowledge and of course. The more news acknowledge the better off. You are the better off. We all are all right. That was it for part one of our interview with Ken. Wilber in part to Ken talks about the transition to so called Second Tier Stage of human development comments on the Meta modernism movement and identifies the prominence. second-tier thinkers off today for the show notes. That's from this episode. Goto future thinkers dot org slash one hundred ten enter the future thinkers giveaway and win our brand new community membership including in the courses assist private calls and more as well. There's a supply of quality a- a complete cognitive upgrade for your brain to enter the contest. Simply go to future thinkers dot org slash giveaway giveaway and sign up for our mailing list to instantly get our fifty page guide on how to adapt to the future. There are many ways to increase your chances of winning. Enter the competition today. The brand new future thinkers members portal is now live develop your sovereignty and self knowledge with our in depth courses. Get access to our weekly since making calls join the QNA's with past podcasts and much more become a future member today at future thinkers that org slash members to stay up to date with new custodes subscribe to future thinkers on your favorite platform and leave us a review or alike. It really helps out the show and Oh forget to share this episode on social media.