Episode 19 with Brian Hagan
The. The transition from school for higher education into the workplace is daunting everybody. But when you have a learning disability at brings an added layer of challenges and obstacles that we have to navigate from the decision to the scofflaws at disability in the whip place to the types of assisted technology. We may need to help us do the job or the south doubt. And worry we may have about our ability to do that job and to make sure we fit into the workforce. At just some of the issues that we have to deal with today has been over twenty years as a senior manager in human resource management consultancy in both the public and private sectors in London, Bryan. You've had a long history in Hijaz that led you to work and advocate with those dyslexia, including writing a check day in the by the late. Great, sylvia. Meaty dislikes in the workplace. So how did you end up working in this space? Actually in a sense flu nut surely from what we're gonna jar of. I was also doing some port time work with you to transitioning webbing doing a tour twenty years Annette started working day week for mental health charity, mind and wall, seven organ at mind, all met a young man who's volunteering their who was dyslexic and dyspraxia. He had a full time job with the mainstream in lawyer. I. And. Very friendly easy going. I going after about six months, I this that he wasn't his usual self breast the irritable and things like that. So we have done in jetted turned that he's being discriminated against badly as workplace because of his dyslexia. That point. I think we're talking bonds. Twenty something years ago atop point in my life. I. Very little about dyslexia broke away misguided responding thinking just about literacy. Really I felt that I could help in Moore three milder standing of employees law and disability Discrimination Act was around that time, which is not being superseded in the UK by the quality's act protecting people with disabilities in the workplace. So only to go his case, obviously, boom basis and held Representative years meetings. Fortunately, he was in a trade union and figuring into this country will provide support including legal supportive, they feel it's merit right away to employment tribunals. So we met with his trade union number occasions. I home the trade union articulate some elements of his case. Win. The case went to the employment tribunal. The tribunal ordered an independent expert to Calment on whether a role the employer had made reasonable adjustments reasonable adjustments being under the DA ending quality act. Steps to mitigate the difficulties caused bully disability in workless and the week claim that they hadn't they claim that they had. So the tribunal asks independent expert will they had done and do an independent reports the Gord as it turned that independent expert was a celebrity. Wti Ali just totally serendipity. I went with the coding was helping fronts assist. First name. I went with two. Meet Sylvia as much as saying help them more too late. And also because he was really twin be women the coin unhinged quite afraid to see this monstrous, independent expert, Dr Moodie sort of thing and it all scared quite a bit. I fund since that release formal meetings that many dyslexic people will have to have with great experts in the sky, heavy very scary situations. So I went with Francis. And documentary was kindness empathy itself as well as a professional objective did a rigorous diagnostic assessment on with the reasonable adjustments. But nevertheless. Plus both completely apparatus Jim explained the Judy to the courts to report independently old hadn't hadn't been done rubble the favor the employer or if aver us anyway looks too short community didn't report which showed that the employer had not even the gun to meet their statutory Judy to make reasonable adjustments. Not report went to me and Francis trade union, and the courtroom course and basis that we then negotiated within player. He didn't multiple reinstated boom to accord in these stances, but because of the horrible way discriminatory may the employer had dealt with Francis. He didn't want go back to the place like that. So we negotiated. They substantial monetary compensation for discrimination imploded. What's the case was over? There was no longer any issue of conflict of interests of the bloom. All I had a telephone coal from Dr moody in which she said, I really think that you advocated wonderfully for this young man jury, I couldn't talk to a whilst the case was lying. But neither icon. She said you have you ever thought of working in this field unless will not really HR person by trade by training? Let's have lunch and have lunch, and she talked to me and she said if you did the following qualifications. Of a certificate on a little. Then you bit quick to bring all the skills. You hide me. But obviously was considerably more understanding knowledge of dyslexia to bear. And she said there are also opportunities where someone with your skill said it hell individual dyslexic people. I thought let's great. I enjoyed meeting dividend. Join the work enjoyed the Z. It seemed natural progression. Forty forty one twenty years in injure, even though I do it. I didn't vote Italy twenty years Certa male menopause career change type of thing. Dots may come into the bag. Buyout. And either that twenties before you mitt Doke comedian had that client that you advocate -able. You'd never knew that dyslexia. Nine. In the way, that you know, a lay person might Noah bugs. Dyspraxia over whatever I knew very little I had misapprehensions. I had heard about it as word blindness at heard about it as I actually had tod woman plea. He was dyslexic a few years before. But our understanding the polling was dyslexia was a courtesy of Bruce, spelling. We knew real understanding bud issues around sequencing structure in a new idea poll about the emotional sucre, CES. Ince's of growing up with dyslexia and stickers. They're putting the dyslexic person's way and the emotional psychological full from that as well. So I very very limited understanding Otis Xia until documented. Wow, Senate was like twenty of Linus in a way until you met here in the case. Really? Sorry. No religious. But I use the word on a pitcher name. Yeah. Especially being in the hey, tiring street. Yeah. Absolutely. And so the last twenty since you met Sylvia renew been working in the space. He sang a lot of changes all because you hadn't nine about it before. And then you learn to bat it. Hard to gauge if there's been changes because you didn't know about nine all about it. I do. Genome Nolan's new. Changes. I mean, I think. Legislation has been the biggest change. The disability Discrimination Act in the UK followed boy pulling together different strums in the quarterback to those ten. I would say of being the biggest change in the last twenty years, not 'cause only believe that solutions are necessarily only possible through logistician I have to say that. But because legislation can often act as a primary consents a soup. Joel Coen text, the least change so just by way, of example bullied making a failure to make reasonable adjustments. Statutory fences. You were by putting the Gatien Olim players to make reasonable adjustments for people who are classified as disabled under UK, all and most dyslexic, people will be. Sets particular framework that employers have to operate within. When you then have precedent. You know, when you have a plumbing tribunal cases school to employer pizza pie channels lose precedents than binding on every employer will not every player to people is there certain exemptions. But let's say ninety percent of employed. People are the bombs ball that statute, and the precedent setting cases, which actually draw on that. So it opened the door considerably to me other people talking to employers about their dyslexic, employee's four the big new statue field occasion. You would have been relying on persuasion. When there's a statute drill began, you can depending employer, and I'll tell you what I mean by cutting employer because I think it should be, but depending on employer you had a steak as well as card ballistic certainly recommend a stick as your opening gambit as it were with an employer. But what I mean is that it may be twenty years old. I fund there are three broad categories of employer. There are those employers who are. Dyslexia. We're not just dyslexia work, but her disability aware, and who are predisposed for organizational, cultural reasons to do the right thing under when you meet them. They're meeting you someone who can help them help their employees so Unicenter Kushida door, and you can bring in move radical or wide ranging solutions than impossible the second category lose employers who are ignorant old dyslexia. But by which I mean, they they knew what I knew twenty five years ago, they spelling or something like that. They're ignorantly, but neutral, and therefore you have to auctions you have the statutory Willett should be globalization type thing, but you also have will you're missing the business case, dear you're rolling mutational risk. You're not getting best of your employees to a much wider range of persuasive powers that might go from business case for doing this reputational risk on statute. And you started the user friendly canned of that spectrum, but you have a school to move up in if necessary, and then there's a third category all employers, and I'm afraid that's the category of employers who go I'm not a charter city. I'm in this business to make profit therefore untreated, everybody insurer says old ignorant inverted coma. But I'll treat everybody said insurer, but this dyslexic person count produce as much as ten people who team or this dyslexic, employer employee can't produce were all the same quality as naming define it. Then I want to and not Maine's sacking capability than that's what I'm good. Kyrie acceptable, end and all Asians actually had to weed the statutory ornament with them. And we've forward big time. I don't mind admitting that because it comes down to a client every time that I've gone into a workplace to Togo reasonable adjustments. Even though the employer is paying me. I see the ability dyslexic employees as my clients, but the employer of the employers backward in trying to return in the pas a minority have to say, but so from that category. Three trying to pressure me into saying this never work, and you just not do reports Davis versus Joel. So what has your pain? Two or three aspects to Wallis being doing workplace needs assess moods. And that's where you look at the individual look at their job description, look at their diagnostic assessments and map diagnostic assessment onto the job description. Yeah. To work listening assessments in the our general they've got a little both the shelf package of it gives them a computer with with MS dragon with textile give them six hundred which strategy training, and we'll probably Rafter and really that's. Let's not saying will size fits all. Of course. Wall-sized all either number of aerials, the two principal. It was being every diagnostic assistance. If than every person's experience, in my opinion is different had tried. And Secondly, when you were lay all doubts, the environment, the culture, and this civic demands job, the Senate, wall-sized, solvents securely not assertive thing. So. Much of being to be doing workplace needs assessments years lose criteria as it were. Stick side. What was it the diagnostic assessment than you look at? Rather? There are two says student any cater to assessments that that you need all of this diagnostic assessment is the assess where that says this person is dyslexic, and here's Wally basically and that ultra abide eight or nine years ago. Could only be done ball shortage psychologists might cannoli. By shorter psychologists and people like maybe were qualified teachers of dyslexia and go put gradual -cation diagnostic assessment. So that we can use the segment tests. So that is saying you are dyslexic and here or you were hearing your pattern of France and weaknesses like compared to a standard measure. You have forty three percent will be working memory all a dyslexic person. Excellent oil because when colleges student they all. Forget. Persons reading about themselves when they read about this report and saying things like three hundred deviations below the norm. Very kind say as it were. Becker towards tried to look at the holding Listrik Lii and look at the person's pattern all strengths unless strong areas. So all schools colleges will give a dyslexic Burson pages and pages of economic testing results. And you think it would occur to them that they may also have difficulties like calculator over numerous difficulties even reading these reports. Don't think I've read a person yet into the reports that I can negree democra- diploma. So. So that's the diagnostic assessment workless is going into the workplace reading the diagnostic assessments Lee, hold understanding of the pattern of. And then overlain on a job description persons occasion on that's where my HR comes in. Because. NHRA did extensive training in Jolo analysis job relation here. You're looking knowledge skills and experience requirements fold the job sometimes summarizes competencies required for the job. And you're saying, okay. We'll solemn has a Kerr short-term on working memory. For example. There are certain tasks like sitting in a box and giving information everybody Rosetta books through sixty two duration them in industry seconds going to be a good fit even with reasonable just Merck's. So it's needed. Joel look in the diagnosed existed and making recommendations for reasonable just to mitigate the dyslexia in the performance of the job, dude. Dude reports presenting report, I encouraged usually, but not all tained the employer you'd have Delima jer. But also someone from HR and the individual dyslexic person myself, and the group that should be fudging managing the reasonable just leads into place. And is important how the personal pun was will. Line managers are driven by considerations all performance and put, you know, they're in a management buy Jek deserve performance management culture than really limited paying lip service to go. I know he or she is dyslexic, this nickname, just months, but when they see a just versus up be released for three hours a week or a weeks to have their strategy training. They can both backs. A counted. Independent consultancy. No, you will do this. So I get the HR person bowl signed before a meeting like that under the char- person would have the ability to say, we'll get that's all we don't do that. We're bringing will. That's many bring legislation eating. So that's we doing your advocacy web for the employees, and you can bring that Boyer. So they're not breaking the law. Yes, you can do that way. Or if you understanding HR person an HR is powerful position within an organization. Sometimes it is sometimes it isn't but often HR will have an executive rule. So line managers are to make the HR decisions to the HR person. They're on they're saying, yes or addressing the ears important ally. Monitor the person's noted when yes, yes, of course, then you know, you. The recalcitrant line manager into a corner. So here she would be acting against the three in Beijing. If they. Release. Suasion? I guess. Yeah. And so what type of reasonable adjustments occur? You said some strategy training in a stray. We don't have any of what you described right now. We. Addle? And it's something that the foundations hoping to develop by the time. But people can't really even disclose in the workplace, you know, the Pechiney to have someone coming to the where buys into a workplace assessment would be just amazed. Amsoil what type of adjustments to people have in the K at the moment. Spate to drag engineer basic fines. What would you have boy on audio Louis discreetly described reasonable just to stay coolers, involved, Jordan persons as as? I did that just remember that there are three categories reasonable adjustment. But also to straight that if you only introduce to Oldham like a stupid with it a whole over. So in a sense, it's integrated holistic the just want to enjoy and you leave like a still a story still which relates train links still. Three. Cool one leg off the whole thing. We'll fold on you see that was the legit. Will cultural difference. No, it's just the computer with you exit. Hard. Woman's you there? Certain vowel sounds that people in Northern Ireland say quite definitively from people in England or. Yeah. The stool the legs roller would be specific dyslexia aware framing or the individual on alternate buddy, one of these three in when I list, so that's that's specific training for the individual the second one is assist of technology. And the third one is organizational change. I'll start with a loss because organizational change in its perhaps the least clear boosting its woman. Both people miss the spokesper tissues. Order train service thing was Jialing. Think about it put it into Mike practice because of my background. There's no point in drinking several and giving them picks if their managers discriminated against their colleagues, he thinking that they're lazy or passenger or careless to river. So unless you do the whole thing listing three legs, you're really doing much to all the assertive, organizational, change or culture modification is about. Inculcating awareness within the organization dyslexia is what it is not including training. So that you understand the dyslexic Burson new did solving successfully three times at a robe might get roll the fourth time because they're under stress or that been working to LARs without a break or whatever understanding things like what you judge comfortable communities of dyslexic people. So we're talking about dyslexia awareness. We're talking about that awareness leading into the individual manager and HR to understand hard Serb systems procedures Whiteley dyslexia own friendly. So for example, the number of Tassie monitors go, really, you know, how big a military myself for longtime. I'm sure before I did my training. I did it too. Your hurry. You're under stress you're seeing your own boss. This is an old as exit measure in in fifty minutes, and you need some information. So you run up to dyslexic, and you will not. Not not not not not not I needed ten minutes. Lexi, I didn't build the first two things that you said you're sort of manager or even if you're a nice manager, they will or they're new they haven't had appropriate duck shin or the told the performances a bit dodgy than they're not gonna hold on. Could you saw please tell me that again or could you put it in writing the number of dealers, he refrained to do therefore they think all did he say, so maybe they'll go to the tenants instructions on a vague notion. Leila eight when they try to do it. They give it to the person, of course, six of the ten Rome on the managers. Look, let's thing night. Us. Earth is going on. Obviously you count the digging with lattes as advocate community on a an instance, by instance, basis or a case by case basis, you've got the inculcates sort of a wariness that appreciates are things that you may have been do as a manager for years and years and years, and it's you know, in your pattern of behavior get this this this list of very nicely. Thank you. So people like, you know, like to. This is called his bragging. Ca quick you to do that these police procedural TV, and they're bringing more and more high proof all senior officers in sometimes they're women. Sometimes they're still a traditional men the sign of the really good new chief inspectors setting the world of the clutter is that. Within thirty seconds. The briefs are roomful place officers on a hundred things to do. I think for man, that's what man may do. I think trying to bring more women into hyper coalitions in these crime drummers, they shoot them to be at least as Michigan's man instructing dozens of people with multiple streams of activity racial times. I blow the police officers in these drums are dyslexic 'cause you know, Erin. Absolutely. So the first thing in the still win is to inculcate awareness within the organization exit is to inculcate awareness problems that will threw up, but to do so at a level that labels too. Review and motor for receivers the cells that strategic level role than actually rely on me or another up to coming in and going you shouldn't do that only shouldn't do that. They hopefully at the end of a wear to stranding to be able to review these things and get it right themselves. And also give permission to the dyslexia person to say when you give me instructions in that way. It blew my mind. I will be able to do it could you instead give me instructions in writing off in before you will to meet me if possible will be times. But could you could practice do this way? So that jumps to lookout them make any notes to understand that that will be difficult bubbled up we made and then you can go. What about number one? What about number two, and I'll be prepared Rolin trying to write done things and not getting the whole story. I it's. It's the second leg of the stool is strategy trading. Look Sunday, turning but civic dyslexia skills training may include strategy training. I I guess that's in two parts one is specific skills. So I would help people with memory skills. But we would put it within the cortex all dyslexia. And you know, we would explain things like. Differently working memory short term rate, a long term memory at hug can you ensure that it he were redouble studied a document that you read it times who were actually sitting in this all sorts of stuff, including in some book. Sylvia's about. Skimming highlighting things like that. Some people need to find out whether they're better listening and watching on screen detects posing your variety ways. Captured permission from written or IT text and being wear the need to consolidate that information in long term memory, otherwise it will be gold sort of. I'll be a specific skill that you today JR. Structuring reports would be another warm. Borrell Rizzoli permission chapter all different types of business report, and they're essentially have blitz but with the law Lewer flavor insight into them and onwards, people asking say shoe made the shorts for they were asked to do talk to me about the difficulties. They had with these reports and then use approaches to writing the address their dictator difficulty. So those are examples to specific skills. Assistive technology. There are three or four main types. In addition to what we have accomplished you as. Text text to speech. A digital digital record meeting. So that you can index may tame, and you talk to rely on making long notes, which you'll be able to keep up with and which will divert your attention from actually listening to what's really happening. So dot sorta Dignam just trying to. Mind genius. You might not, sir. Turning lots of stuff into visuals. Not all these things were dyslexic beatable, but what you can do your word is. Secondly, the all useful in the jobs that people are doing. So to matter of making the person's familiar were with the basic most important pieces assist. The technology rolling through them with the person. They're up locations. Then getting look the websites for designed I needed trial, the technology, and then say it together, you can get fit on the applicability. But as a kid full were the work that they're doing. So that would be third leg stool intently. The government pays for. Quite a bit bowls. So the government typically pay for were ten or of skills training governor who pay for nearly all this technology. Wow. It helps early over the years. They have reduced their. Sealy's Oldham state will pay so no they don't pay for what I believe in Sylvia believed. And Sandra would believe in what other experienced tissues would believe be the right among. But at least they pay for. Can't NGOs important for charities who make won't to help. But on budgets, typical grew reasonable just for some motor dyslexia in a moderately difficult. Job would probably be about five dollars bonds. Why the word? What London process monkey but still coming in a number of charities? I mean when our entire budget is Leila thirty politics. You might want to do it. But that would be very difficult. So the double assistance there is very poor in a row. Prompted will attention managers in that first or second type, it will be I've mentioned to you unit the enthusiastically, willing or the ignorant willing to learn. Some people as monitors or in the national health service, for example, I fully some people board when they knew that they would have this five or six others punts the government because they said I come through to other woods is not funding. Ward. Little and know that's for overtimes, nurses, on the ward. I can I spend it. Dyslexia. Hill is certainly necessary. In most cases, interesting enough. The people who were moving Susia state to say, you're the expert you doing everything you said were some big corporations because they just awash with money like oracle, for example. They just in so much money in their big campus that that you know, when I said cosmic five or six hours, there's anything. Actual context is hugely report that people will grass pay for say get on with it others go we'd like to but we can't afford it. And always will go go away. We're not charity if they can do Joe when keep the. The count. Wow. We just don't have anything like that in strata so full any height. Shop people that might be listening to this podcast or. Dislike soon in the workplace. Can you? Any tips will in the staff that might be struggling will be that might be struggling at bid will listening. For any assistive technology a lot of people during disclose sorry. They might be able to do if they can't disclose to their employer leads out companies that have listened to what you said might wanna take some steps in supporting stop that. They may suspect dyslexic, but they haven't said anything. Sure. I think before I answer that. I just I need to ask you question. What is text within the spirit or disability discrimination and employment little protection because there's nothing than it's very difficult. There is a question of disclosure were here as well. But I come to presupposing the statutory protections that are in place. So I might say someone wise things less I'm aware of Colin Tech's within which people are working. Yeah. This different laws because we've broken up into St.. It's different lows posts state. I don't know huge. I just went to OH Innis training, the other way, and so health and safety training, and I actually asked this question. How it's the learning disability. We call a disability at the foundation, but the word is trying around the wash whether it's Pam into a disallow it out all Serb. Like everywhere. It's not him. Different everybody guard. Under the human Rights Act in the joy of Australia. Can you can be taken to court, and I have nine of people that haven't been given raisin judgments and have wanting. But it's very great area in strata. You have to give reasonable within the school. But more gray within the place and this. It's not like in the UK. Okay. Or? Here. This the started. Then there is precedent slow the employment tribunals unemployment appeal trading rules, interpret individual cases, where people believed to have been discriminated against and come to finding not finding this then binding on all other employers. So is that the case between states in industry? Another words, the people you mentioned who Wilner cases played into regional just lend presumably were won't stay with that just apply within that state. Or would it apply federal level? Will the person that I know of within Victoria. So I I think it depends on way while, sir. I think if you so I find to my employer. I'm dyslexic been about it. And then I asked raise will just moments in they didn't to me than possibly could take them to court. But then because it's under the the what we call the DSM five in a strategy, which is the mental health, which is is a international days in vibe is the mental health gigging. Digging. I we feed onto the mental health dictionary mental account. You know, what I'm talking about accounting to the actual name. He did. Diana, Stein, sting, psychological menu. Say we fit under that, and it is classified as a learning disability. So I think if this month, and they didn't give me reasonable adjustments. And I could go to either it. And has to be proven knitted to mental. Disability. It's it's not as clear website. We have got around disclosure and that under the the human Rights Act, which will even Ryan Sam because that is a vigil act on two different acts that you need to be aware of depending on which state Italy. Because when allies. Age state still wanna there are Embiid of legislation. Sorry, we have different axed any way you leave. Instead. So. Yeah. I couldn't stay at stiffly. Not like the UK where it's a lot more clear. That I do have one court cases that it's be disclosed up front. And then they haven't been that have been performance managed and they've been able to clearly identify performance managed intimidated because of day dyslexia. Yeah. But even then Bernie because of the way they lawyers supported showed that it was cle-. Sorry. Yeah. You'd have to be careful very well documented. The looks. I thought about this a local solar, and it sort of sort of it's it's difficult. What would I say to players? What would I say to individuals even in this country? Surprising. I'm sure every country. People are often reluctant to disclose. I did a talk at the Suez. The raise study said that'd be mercy colleagues Linden some years ago at all for people of the master students should just finish on the role dyslexic, but fifty abide, you know. Starting in developing your career as a dyslexic graduate was sugar. They moved the talk and. And I explained the pros and the cones fall disclosure and the end of last in question answer session, fifty percents grew said, that's wonderful really help Louis were thank you. And the other fifty said your idiot, your fool, if we disclose we won't even get an interview. So everything you says notes were still disclosing the group. Egypt mature dyslexic adults were split right down the middle. I'm not split down the middle people in the UK the issue disclose because if you don't there are so many things that can happen in Flament like making the mistakes reasonable adjustments that are likely to happen like being inducted, but not being able to get information in and they'll be able to say that making mistakes having misunderstandings, ensue one. So in the of knowing that it's dyslexia, I'm making reasonable just just limbs managers will judge that you're either in Copenhagen they or stupid or all three if I as a manager of I think way back when I began explain something someone walks. I said have you know, they went away and messed it up. Hope I would've being. Patient to. Okay, Kato worry. We'll do it. Again. Not sure how many times I could have done that without taking something wrong here. I've seen that many times. And I know it shoot fli that it happens. A look there's a section in Mali zero order about the importance of induction. And that really is it in the even will meaning managers in the up soups of context loader sounding as the last patron of errors that are avoidable the dyslexic with reasonably ones, the manageable could blood this laziness or lack of attention what you do. And that's why so many people end up doing the road of capability summaries who stupidest call disciplinary matters you distinguish between capability you haven't got the copayments for discipline. You is called. So IBM cases were there saying failure hunted or time for example is misconduct, which is normal. So. Newer majeur. I believe disclosure is born ever. If you disclose you can ask a reasonable just once. Poor selection process. Increasingly these days people have a one day assessment centers. They have inbox the intrigue exercises all sorts of things were credible. Sparks and you can ask for reasonable just Lear not disadvantaged. But if you don't disclose you've come reasonable. Insulin's? Sometimes you're dating past the starting. More different difficult perhaps in a stray willia- woman. You haven't got lose statutory safeguards too. I do the organizational culture industry. Not sure if what the percentage is big United Center good organizations. Neutral organizations of bad, and I do believe that it's thirty covering in the way. I'm not sure what that information might be industry, and therefore that statute Chen, if you're not disclosing and fifty percent are abor businesses of you can do if you get up it might be will prevalent near therefore disclosing is to main that you don't even get an interview short. So a little bit reluctant to to. Distributive because I'm not prescriptive, but I'm little bit reluctant to say that the vice that I have for dyslexic here plying for jobs necessarily transfers over St. with me understanding worth nation about it counts. That I jumped into I said that they always say what your weaknesses which is ridiculous because everyone lies, and I I went lie all cited that I need to support with my rushing to sit. I do need that extra support with my writing and just left it at that. And so when they offered me the job, very juicy pay, and I said to them this is not the pace scale that was originally often and this because you said you needed help with you arriving win giving you the pay because we wanna see what type of support you really need. And I nearly didn't take the job. So I thought it'd be only union that I was dyslexic, they actually discrimination. And then afterwards onto the job ended up. I didn't need that much support. And they ended up giving me, hey, and just not disclose to my manager. And she turned around sit on you those something wrong with you. And this was in the mini as Asian. And that was something wrong with you. So mean, I feel. Diagnosed assessments from other countries and students chiller other countries that you might think of like Italy from bowl. Italy. The Douglas assessment was more like an assessment or schizophrenia. Eight Kyra tryst doing a report and picking up some of the consequences all growing up dyslexic and emotional stuff that Sylvia rice, abide in her book as evidence for underlying psychosis while schizophrenia dreadful pages and pages all psychiatric tests that were being done sort of thing. So so I guess back to the cultural context, it's really worrying to me the in Australia. It's still being considered within a mental health context because you know, Sylvia, most other tissues, we said, it's not mental health Apollo. There may be some secondary or tear Sherie emotional consequences over what this Lexi is which is. Instantly a cruising speed executive vocation and phonology. Those those are are doing things practical skills, any emotional cultural courses flow from other people's reaction to things the dyslexic has not yet been trained to do properly. In my day for the. Yeah, I guess because it's classified as a learning disability which comes out of the day as invive, and I knew psychologists assess at the moment, I might supervise a speech she and she says she's consists, but generally signing near Sykes all clinical Ed site. So the sys- for funding so like university by wanna get I get funding. I get support at union on the diploid gets on doing, but I get assistance doctorate when I was doing my masters after I go to states and diagnosed so like, I get more time if I had to do an essay or by didn't exam got extended time, and I get access to assistive technology through university now, and I'll get some extra support with my doctrine as well. So, but you need that clinical clinical educational neuropsychologist report to exit. That assistance and actual funding at the moment better. If you're high school, you need that report to get some type of assistance in the classroom, even though it's minimal. I think he can get a little bit assistance. So bet again psychologist it's within the days of five seats whine psychologist would assess you is wide still in that. Go Szekler difficulties in the UK, not learning difficulties specifically difficult to distinguish it from mainstream learning difficulties in the DSM go. Seniors. Isn't within all the is him. Learning gender. Things. Grossing the and short term working memory and to complete those in to learning difficulties. Or mental health problems. Is referred me. Roll. She'll be in. Guys to be dyslexic be. The cultural. Shit roller is so. I the. I dumb. Many many many were listening. I. Chilly as many many many that. I. As well. I I also believe. We are simply many many many years thinking about what was Lexi. Statutes rate, and we practice interventions assistant. So if I were. You you should relational were individual people. This isn't the UK is best letter saying we even ready already invented many, many, many weaves diva these issues, and it makes you mitigate Gress over anymore to be in so doing you should try collect use or you others. She tried to like all winds. Comes off of those imploded appeal cases crate say there is a need for changing laws is what they're doing in the genome limit. How those? Salvin ruse and Molly worklessness assessments and say this assessment. In this country. And then Joel let up there or the individual who will to fly he later, they do that research themselves or you another disseminate. They've been a. For their interviews for the Mormons that says by delay need the following agree. HR the, you know, the other side of that argument to the other if all had red EA teaches the same my PC were she'll is just in the workplace. They would be the same level of Noli understand want. Again, knew nothing will leg in the sewer dyslexic person being afraid to say. Mid bull personally will shake people the in the desk everywhere. What's he doing that? Why we're paying that? Say and take my river. People are usually informed and people are powered to do these explored. Syllable in Waller to websites Bedia web citing you to turn. They are doing that. I'm lexie nigger you into a positive. I always did I in careers people. It's no, dear I count through this. It's because of Rex. Yeah. I take hard word I worked harder to get by a PHD or whatever lay still said. And that the only sharing -ly. I. Technology. You know what I can text. Mine except all these skills my productivity in text Zulu thirty percent greater than the average known this person. All I saw it. There were here on I think that roller than cast advice to individuals. Oh, your three things. I any more. So. The ground pool together all the little really. And then. So that penetrate HR alleged magazines, h as I used to write article for HR magazine's picks for busy in a row, try and call area, Joel we're gonna lose CFP, Jordan shoe person. And you're getting more than fifty sixty. We're gonna see it. And I always used to tease you. You'll say it says if you will talk to hear my contact details to me Servizi. So I think that's it capture. The good practice disseminate. It wasn't the same time. Someone does need to be doing. So. Applaud the law a tell people with dyslexia that they've got mental health book to me is awfully. Kohl sort of thing. And I know that's the status quo the moment. But it's based on the phone demento misunderstanding. The sexiest. Yeah. While thank you so much Brian for coming on the show today is anything else you'd like to add before we wrap it up. 'cause I know we're gonna do a couple of move have a couple more conversations around. Hey, CHA and dislike saving as you mentioned their boss differences between Strayer in the UK. And we've got what saloon from what you're doing over there. Sure. I mean woman let me emphasise. I think that's correct. Let me emphasizes insertive some sort of poops. Neil facial superiority it simply holidays, you know, what I mean. I mean, I'm a a colonial as well. Our show, you know. We've got what Selanne period the malls world. It's not just been the. In the very lucky to have be mentored, Sylvia moody, who was a listen, you bring your mold breaker, you know, Silvio for this group of head of her tolling on his written because of Sylvia, many others following on from word on Sandra's. Well, there there are lots of Brexit. Their answer the questions that you have and some of changes are necessary to make it. I just say two things. Quarter me think is that. HR managers need to be educated. I when I looked at HR syllabuses so nothing about this lex. Yeah. When I looked at psychology civilised for under post grad students college degrees. Virtually nothing about his lack the win. There was it hasn't done as a psychiatric. You believe I mean as as as someone who'd right up to the age a team with tool that I was mentally ill. Because I was gay. I knew the impact with that. Of course, being gay was removed from the DSM. Great nate. But in the nineteen ninety seven. So the moment I was psychiatric and mentally ill. Because I was on Tuesday. So really? For his CEA. Just because it's in the DSM domain. It's necessarily true. The impact that had a amendment twenties to get out of that. I think it must be as bad but worse for people with dyslexia, so campaigning political strategic level of capturing good practice, which is then disseminated for both HR the wage earners managers at individuals tomatoes, is is they medium-term solution at all the books that are run Sylvia's vote might use the report Sounders vote on a practical level because I can I can understand the people watching this might go. Yeah. That's great. That's gonna take ten years. What do I do not? There are lots of manuals arrived there. Lots of books, the breach dyslexia association website is tax with advice and links to people at a practical level, the resources already exist, including the ones that I've mentioned. Are good solutions? Well, thank you so much Brian. If you'd like to find out more about Brian and the amazing work he has done well, SUV immedi books, and the great and wonderful where that she has developed please head to the slick website. Also, if you haven't already done, so yet, make sure you sign up to our mailing list. So you can keep up to date with all the work that we're doing at the foundation hit to do dyslexic. Don't come. And don't forget if this anything you've heard today that you found distressing. You can contact the only one three hundred double choose four, six three six or lifeline searching double one voting. Thanks so much for joining us today. And until next time bye now.