Bill Polian on Team Building & Core Traits Needed in a QB
And now move the sticks with Daniel Jeremiah and Bucky Brooks. Welcome to move the sticks I'm Bucky Brooks and I am flying solo from us. My Partner Dana Jeremiah is out on vacation. Can hanging out doing what he does during the summer months? So I'm running to ship. I'm doing solo, but I am excited because we have a great guest on today we have pro football hall of fame executive. Bill Polian joining us and we're having a one on one conversation about everything that. You've ever wanted to know about scouting and the team building process. He has. So without further ado, let's is gifted interview. Here's my conversation with Bill Polian. Joining the move the sticks podcast someone who have always wanted to talk to. About the team building process scouting business pro football hall of Famer Super. Bowl champion six time NFL executive of the year Bill Polian also the host of the inside football podcast will bill polian how you doing Mr Bowling good bucket. How are you? I can't tell you how excited I am. Because I feel like we have so many connections along the way I feel like I've learned from you without even working for you obviously drafted about the buffalo bills. After you left the buffalo bills, and then I work as a scout for the Carolina Panthers and a lot of your philosophies. An ideology still existed and of those places so I want to begin with the buffalo bills because I think it's an underrated dynasty that has never fully been appreciated to have a team that you were reported building. They went to four straight, super bowls. Can you just talk about them? The process especially was to be a part of that. Well, it was unique in a lot of ways. Number one we we in the cowboys with the triplets. Were really the last. Of the PRE free agency teams. Are Team stayed together for a long time, which was a neat thing. so that was unique. Secondly you know when you go to the Super Bowl just the length of the season. And that last month month and a half where involved run to the playoffs, and then ultimately the playoffs. Is just so pressure packed it. They lose. They use determine baseball high leverage, and that's absolutely right. That takes a lot out of you. People talk about a super bowl hangover, and it isn't because you're partying or you don't. You don't WanNa win. or You satiated after you win the Super, Bowl, or even after you lose. It's because that that six weeks leading up to. It's just such a grind. it's hard to come back from that and coach. Levy did a miraculous marvelous job getting our guys focused and they did a marvelous job. Staying focused and Hungary through the whole process and. And so that part of it is unique. And I think because of free agency, and because they're so much media in this day and age. I don't think anybody ever do that again i. mean it's really hard to do. It's hard to do twice much less four times in a row. Unbelievable run and so in thinking about that I come right at the end of that run, and that's my first exposure to a team, so my first exposure to a championship caliber team is one with the hall of Fame Quarterback Hall of fame, running back a hall of Fame Wide Receiver. Andre, Reid a hall of Fame defecit been in Bruce Smith. Another high level player anchored Helius Bennett and so when I think about team building. Processes, what is your team building philosophy when it comes to the more key positions, what are the more key positions on a championship caliber forty? Well the IT changes slightly in the free agency era because of the salary cap, but having said that. the real issue. Is. It starts with quarterback unless you have a quarterback who could win. Not just manage the game. You have one who can win in December in January. you're not, GonNa go where YOU WANNA go! It's really that simple. You have to have a wide receiver who can win against everybody? That means that he has to be good enough, so that bill. Belichick can't take away in a championship game. He's got to be good enough so that the really good defensive teams can't take him away. He's got to be able to make plays in that situation. You have to have a left tackle. Who can handle all of all the pressure that you need to get? You have to have a center who controls the offensive line? And who can make all all the calls? Nowadays you pretty much need a right. Tackle can can play at a high level. How you can get by with athleticism now. At right tackle. You couldn't in the days when you were playing by the way I scouted you at North Carolina. Fingerprints are on you. I'm think I feel like I know you because of. Your Plan Carolina. In any event and you need a running back. Who can carry the load? Down the stretch and through the playoffs, most running backs nowadays can't go sixteen when you stop and think about. Barry, Sanders and Thurman Thomas and. That's the reason they're in the hall of fame because they they go sixteen or fifty. but nowadays you need to, but you have to have the bell cow, so to speak who can, who can make plays and win games through because what happens on offenses that. The running back wins by making people miss and making big runs and making something out of nothing. Lately on Elena's heyday with with the steelers, and how many games did you win for them? By ripping off a big run whether it's in four minute or whether you, you know you needed to yards for a first down, or you needed to flip the field? On those kinds you have to have that kind of back. You have to have that receiver can make the play. Thinking, stay in with the steelers Antonio Brown you have to have the the quarterback. Big Ben is an example and you gotta have an offensive line. Two tackles in the center. That can can basically do everything. They've got a pass protect. That's a must, but they also have to be good in running game, and that goes to the offensive line coach you have. That's the one position. Where you have to have a coach. Who can manage his position totally on his own? And get the most out of the guys that he has an essentially creating a run game. Where his guys can shine that that that's a must when you hire a staff. I would argue that. The offensive line coach is probably the most important guy in the whole operation. As far as assistant coaches are concerned 'cause he's on his own by himself I mean he doesn't get any work with anybody else other than the defensive line coach. You have to have. A. Kicker! Who can win in the clutch? In every single situation, every kind of weather, every kind of pressure indoors. It doesn't make any difference. That guy has to be able to come through in the clutch. And Kickers Win Championships when we want to Carolina our first. Free agent signing big free agent signing with John Casey and people sway crazy signing kicker now if you WANNA win championships. You have to have a not only reliable, but a guy who's really good in the clutch. 'cause they. That's where games are won and lost at the championship level. Then on defense. You have to be able to rush the passer. And you have to be able to. In this day and age, if you're going to really be good, and almost from the time that we were in Buffalo, but certainly from the time Tom Brady and peyton manning or in their heyday. You have to be able to rush from the inside. You have to have a guy who can get it done inside because if you can't. It doesn't matter for the Brady's. The Marino's the manning's. you can put two F. F. Six F. sixteens off the edge and it won't make any difference he he'll just step up or slide around. You have to get people under his feet. You could not rush and Marina we had. Bruce Smith and Cornelius Biscuit. Two of the best football wants all of Famer, and the other should be and. And nothing bothered him with them. We had to stunt. Get people up the middle eventually move bruce inside and critical situations where he could overpower guard. You have to have pressure underneath. Nobody know. quarterback likes pressure under his feet. And so. You have to have those three things on the defensive line without without those. You're not going to the big dance. And then I would say you need depending on your system. If you're a three four system. You need a power inside linebacker. You need a guy that can can stop the run. If your a four three. If you're Dungy, type, system, or Carol type system. You, really need you need the week linebacker because he's the guy that everything in the run game funnel to. And so he's GonNa. Make Place, so you have to have a keithly. Whether he plays in the middle, or at will is immaterial, but you gotTa have him. And and Believe it or not. The two safeties have to be really good players, and if you have a Bob Sanders Detroit Paulo mallows, someone like. Your your, you've taken a big step toward winning a championship because. The strong safety if he can go two ways if he can play back, cover to and come up and stop the run play in the box if he has to be the eighth man in the box. And he can do that well and changed games. Than your clover. I think having those things is an absolute. must the others you can build around? What it all boils down to it when you think about. we used a color scheme blue. Being the best players read being. You're familiar with it. I'm sure most our. Listeners. Viewers are to. You have to at least twelve. Blues and reds on your team to win a championship. That's that's a metric that that never fails. It's true given in Europe. That's funny, so having worked Carolina under. Tony, softly! Tony always talked about. We need to have ten to twelve blues to be able to be at a championship level you. We went to the Super Bowl in two thousand three. We had that primarily on defense, but when I go back and look at this team building formula that you've construct it. To me, it stands the test of time because on look at teens in Buffalo I look at the team at Carolina that you'd be. They went to the NFC championship game when I was in Jacksonville, we went to the championship game, and then when I look at the colts I can just check off the boxes on all of those things. Let's start quarterback though when you talk about the core tricks because you mentioned something to me, that kind of rang a bell when you said I need a winner, not a manager, but when we get in critical situations in the play offs, I need a quarterback that can go win the game. There are a lot of guys now. That are being paid like a franchise quarterback. You and I both know they don't have that capability and so. What, what identifies like what stands out when you talk about that winner? How do you see that? What do they do? That shows you the okay. This guy's the winter that I can build a. Well. It isn't money as you know. The money is is just a function of the market in a given year. That's that's why the players union fought so hard for free agency. But. I really think that playing quarterback boils down to some very simple core things. The first is accuracy. You have to be accurate and that means. Putting a ball. where it has to be so the defender can't get it. You, you gotta be able to throw people open. That's what throwing people open means. Putting the ball where the defender can't get it, even though he's got good coverage. That's number one. Number two. You have to be able to get it out quickly. I was on my Sirius radio show. We talked Dante. Dante's Karnicki couple of weeks ago on it was just. Could've done three hours with him. It was so educational and I said to him how the heck were you able to? Take care of Frene Mathis every year. You know we could rush everybody else. We couldn't really get time off. And he said well. We had Tom Check. Free On. Virtually every play. And free to step on the on the left tackle. The ball was coming out. And I saw the place. My Mind's eye. Okay I. Get it. I wish I knew that man. But. He has to be able to get the ball out and get it out accurately without a lot of wasted motion and. You have to have a quarterback. WHO has a Canon front arm? If his release isn't quick, Kerry Collins? Did have the so-called hitch wasn't a hitch. It was simply a way cock the wall, but the bottom line is that. His arm was so strong he could compensate for, plus we were down the field offense so that that helped to some degree, but He's gotTA. He's gotTA. Be Accurate. You gotTA. Get it out there quickly. And most importantly, he has to process quickly. If, he can do those three things. Arm Strength. Is Not an issue not now you'd want them to be able to drive the ball to the outside from the far Hash. You know you want him to make the seventeen yard out, throw. But, you know every year we here in the pre-draft hype. This guy has cannon front on. He can throw it sixty yards so. That's nice. How many times he drove sixty yards. Not Very often. And so. If. You have a mahomes like that's great. That's tremendous, but the thing think that sets mahomes apart is that he can throw accurately from so many different platforms. Throws it sidearm throws a three quarter. He throws it off his back foot. He throws it when he's running those are. The accuracy is what's stunning about him from so many different platforms so. I think those things and then the ability to make the play in the clutch. That's what wins do. Mar.. said. He said to me one time it just in passing, he said we're I. Forget who we were looking at. It was a college player might have been Joe Montana with with the with the forty niners through sort of an ugly pass. You know and I said. That wasn't beautiful and said you know what winter's find a way to win. And it's true. They do? They find a way to make a play and. Jim. Kelly is a prime example of that. It didn't matter how many times you've knocked him down. He'd get right back up and find a way to make a play famous. No one ever saw this because it was a play. USFL, but a pit them is is Jim, Kelly. We were with the Chicago blitz. Mar Night. And John. Butler who you remember late shot. And and John was on the phone upstairs and I was down the sideline next to Marvin we had plank plan safety, and we call the Blitzen Doug. Came Free Jim Kelly Plan for the Houston gunslingers and and and he. Gamblers excuse me and dog hit him right under the chin. He would have been injected today hit him right under the chin. You could see the blood fly out. Jim was falling backwards and went through. And threw a touchdown pass and turn tomorrow holy bleep. John Upstairs Oli. What does happen well Jim? Kelly just happened in all that. Those guys have that special knack. Of. Making plays Tom Brady as you know I broadcast i. was the color guy on radio for ESPN's game of the week in the NFL for about six years. And loved doing it. And we had so many New England Games. And nobody. In the history of football. Is as good as Tom Brady when you give him a break. You make a mistake. MARV used to call them gifts. You give the opposition a gift. He cashes in at Neiman Marcus man he. Takes your bank account. He doesn't go to the guest action. He's coming. No one has the killer instinct Tom. Brady I've ever seen. So. It's those special qualities. That allow them to make plays in the clutch. that. Set the real winners apart and that. It's hard to. It's hard to put a metric on that other. Than How many times have they let their team from behind? How well fourth quarter passing doesn't tell you the story? How many times have they WANNA game when they're behind in the fourth quarter I think Peyton and Brady lead the lead that statistical time I could be wrong on that, but I know they way up there. How many times says he has? He led his team from behind in the fourth quarter. When the Games on the line you know who's better than Tom Brady and the play offs, I mean. Nobody so. Montana on, you know. Bradshaw, keep naming the hall of famers. That's. That's that's what sets them apart. The common denominator and It's funny when you talk about the quarterback position because I feel like because who you've been around in who you've been exposed to from scouting perspective, you keep the standard very very high and I. Think it's easy in our business to want to do it right particularly on this side to want to get right. This guy's going to be the first round pick or whatever, but if you pure to the standard of what you're talking about, there are not many guys IRV to be at the top the top of the board when you talk about the standard and those four things. Talk about so from paid manning Peyton Manning, not only check off those boxes, but when I think of quick processing. Payton in the amount of stuff that period that he had on his plate, and he was able to direct that offense. That's what you're looking for the quarterback from intellect standpoint. Well, you'd like it. You're right about a high standard. We had a young intern with US years ago in in Indianapolis. Bright and And went on to do a lot of good things. We were talking about quarterbacks when we were going through the quarterbacks that were listed in the draft that I kept saying I'm not excited about this guy I really you know he's okay, but he's he's. He's not what you want any. He said Bill can anybody play said very few. Many are called but fewer jobs. The standard is high now. Payton had really so much on his plate that I don't think other than he and Brady. We've ever seen a quarterback managed the game way I don't mean. Manage the game in a pejorative sense, manage the offense and conduct the offense set the protections and change the formation than go to the audibles. Thing. That those guys did. That's because they were such great. There's. And and their preparation was was. That's not. Entirely necessary. I think as long as you can process on Sunday. And you can get in and out of the audibles. The coaching staff is giving you. Someone else can call the protections if necessary. Really offensive. Linemen a center can do that. so. You're not necessarily looking for Einstein and In even the test score or GPA doesn't. Doesn't necessarily correlate. Those rare people I pray manning have. Have that innate capacity to see the game in a different way than most of us do. But that's not necessary. As long as a quarterback has the other things, the most important thing from in terms of leadership work ethic is he gonNa be there the first one in the last one out literally. And working seven days a week literally. Because if he doesn't. Then no one else is going to so. That part of it is is a given. But I. I wouldn't expect. A for example college quarterback to have the capacity to do what Manning Brady. So it was funny. As of late we're seeing in the last ten years. Teams are going to the Super Bowl with the quarterback that is planning on his rookie deal. So it requires it appears that the offense coordinator in the head coach to be able to Kinda. Dumb it down, but have a little flexibility adaptability. It comes to playing with a young quarterback. If you're in the business today, you were tasked with building. A Super Bowl team with a young quarterback. Like what changes? Now compared to yesteryear when when you're building a team with a young man, you got that five year window to get it done. Well, The hope you have the flag. And you're right because the championship, the life of a championship team is about six years. Before you, you really have to turn a lot of people over. what what I've. What I term is that. The offensive coordinator and quarterback coach. Have to be. To crutches for the rookie quarterback. Literally, he has to be able to lean on them. In practice in preparation. Especially into game. To be able to say okay. What was it that the Donald said last year I'm seeing ghosts. Yes, well, you and I know. That that's very common. If you said we looked at tape and said boy that guy seeing ghosts yell Dr Gave Voice to it and fans were shocked than media or shocked by it when when it's very very common. So you go to the sidelines and he says to the coast coach. I'm seeing ghosts. And he said fine. That's not worry about. Let's look at the let's look at the pictures, and I'll show you. What the key on sudden! You don't see ghost so. They have to be crutches literally for the quarterback. Or training wheels if it maybe a little bit better analogy so that he's able to steer that biological in the right direction and perform at a high level. Without worrying about going off the road because he doesn't cross, says something, or he's not the it doesn't have enough. Experience to to see something correctly. You hope that as time goes by. And the best ones do this. They make they don't make the same mistake twice once. They've seen a defense once. They've seen something that's confused Amena. Coaches talked through with them then they say okay I've got it, and and now we go and one measure that you use. In terms of metrics and talking about whether they're qualified or not is to see whether they can learn. Retain retention is is the key, but. If you're playing with a young quarterback that means you're investing in defense, which is good. You absolutely have to win a super bowl. quarterback coach and the offensive coordinator or the head end or the head coach to be training wheels forum to help them navigate the road. Yes, it's a tricky thing because now what we're saying is. We're seeing these guys that are going to the super bowl ricky contracts, but your three ends of being critical, because now you make the decision on whether to extend the fifth year option and then you. You have to make a decision. Do we want to pay significant sums of money for the quarterback? And if the quarterback is just as we've talked about early on the PODCAST, a manager, how far are we willing to go with a managerial type at the position, or are we willing to go back in the draft and see if we can find the right guy if you're a decision maker? How are you balancing that? Do we just keep together? We know his just okay, or are we willing to always search for great at that position? I wanted to do. Both I'm risk averse number one so I'm not GonNa, let the guy who's functional. Go until I have somebody that I know is better to replace it. But if he's only functional, and you're convinced after three years that he's not going to take you to the promised land. And it's hard to make that judgment. It's really it's a hard judgment to make. But if you convinced. Then you better go looking. For the ultimate answer, but I would not I would not unload the guy that I have. especially if he's on a rookie contract where I have rights to technically for for two more years. Or maybe three. I wouldn't let him go until I was sure that the replacement was on board. So, there brings me to a conversation because there's been a lot of. Conversation around Deck Scott Because Deck Scott is one of the few quarterbacks that has been on a franchise deal, and so from the outside, it appears that the cowboys are either uncertain, or they can't reach agreement based on like how he views his value at how the cowboys view the value long-term when you're a team like this, and now that your quarterback is on the franchise, deal is an imperative to get them signed to the long-term, or are you telling your scouts? We have to be on the hunt for the next one just in case well. It's a very interesting question I think. You're dealing with two different. Situations here, apples and oranges. The apple is. Can you get done on a long term deal? That's that that works for you financially. And it has to work financially because everything else that the team buzz financially flows from that. Both expenditure of cash. And and financial chemistry in not if a quarterback who everybody in the locker room knows, it's just an average guy gets thirty million dollars. All of a sudden. You and I are sitting next to each other going what? What's his seven here? I better call my agent. If he's worth thirty million. What am I worth? That's financial chemistry and there's a lot of that that that. That goes on. So you have to worry about that. And then the other of course is the expand the truth cash and the CAP. The beauty of the cap from the standpoint of ownership is it doesn't forgiven doesn't forget. You're. GonNa pay for your mistakes. So that's one part of it. The other part of it is that. You may have heard this from John Butler we always told our scouts every year the new year. We're looking for everything every year. We're looking for the best football players we can get. We're going to try and accumulated many draft choices that we can get, and and if it's a quarterback, so. And then Ron, wolves. Always said and he was absolutely right. Draft A quarterback. Year, or so no more than three years apart so that you're you're backed up and you're ready to go. If something happens unfortunately for us in our last year in Indianapolis. We weren't prepared to do that. And and we and we paid the price for. This interesting, there's another team building thing that I just noticed. I always wanted to ask you about. You have to be okay with investing in a running back in the draft. Your history suggests that you will take running back in the first round, and you're okay with a lot of people on the outside that are like. Oh, you can find one later and thing look at all the teams that are doing it just talk a little bit about your philosophy when it comes to the running back position and whether he would. Would just rather draft one high and just kind of route him out, and in draft another one or draft him in and pay him when it comes time to kind of pay a bill at the end of his contract. Well, let's put paying aside because that becomes another. That's another issue. Okay? Drafting is the key issue. Would I draft why of course? James? Joseph I yes. They're great players at a hall of Famer. If if that player Barry Sanders Saquon Barkley keep naming him. Christian McCaffrey is, he's a game changer by all means take him. Why would you not want a game changer? Just because he plays running back I don't understand. You can get the ball twenty five to thirty times a game in the run game in the passing game. Why would you? Why would you wanNA lesser player in that position when you could get a game changer? So, that's always been my philosophy if the is a game changer. Don't look back. It'd be happy to get him. Some. Go ahead. So. That's where it gets muddy because you says it's an apples to oranges, conversation drafting them and paying them because. The conversation is on the outside. They kind of diminished the value of the running back, but we're. We're talking about building a championship team in common denominator with your teams. You always had a marquee running back a guy that could get it done so. Where is the lack of valuation appreciation from the running back coming from? I don't know I honestly don't know. None of it makes sense to me. Okay because I see Barry Sanders. I see Thurman Thomas. I we, I mean we got. He was a first round pick. Obviously, we got him in the second round because of the injury. Edgerrin James. Todd Gurley. Keep naming them. Now if you're if you're in a Shanahan offense. I get that because the design of that offense uses running backs who have a special skill set? which is one cut downhill run through linebackers. Don't run around them. And and that's great I mean if that gives them an advantage they can. They can use that money in that draft slot on someone else. But. You know the average career length if you play. Two years in the NFL is six. You if you draft a running back in the first round, you haven't for six years five years on the contract one year on a franchise tag if you'd like to use it. And! That's about the length of his career. So, you have to be ready to recycle those guys. But I I wouldn't Pasa Game Changer. Under any circumstances now whether you pay him or not, at the end of five years or six years is another question that's that's entire, and the odds are pretty good that you would not. Because they don't have long careers there's. They take a lot a lot of hits and they wear down so. That would that's a different question. And that's hard to let a great player goal like that I mean. It broke my art ledger and go, and we'd probably kept them one year too long in all honesty. If you look at it from purely a purely incense, stand point, but he meant so much that team that we didn't want to let him go, but. That's the orange part of it. The apples part of it i. take him again in a heartbeat. This because you really cleared up some, because not only, did you? Kind of talk about the philosophy of the running back, and how they important, but then you also talked about from a data in metric standpoint like look average for two years, but it stretches out the where they that matches up with a first round contract, basically, so it makes to take the best player in the first round Rodham all the way out, and then at the end of the deal. Look for the next one because the UH suggest he's not going to be able to sustain that level of play. Lasting offense you talked about why receivers number one wide receiver and the number, one wide receiver has to be able to beat all comers coverage double coverage elite corners. The number one really has to be a true number. One explain explained it a little bit. Well he's got to have enough size to withstand a lot of punishment because you're gonNA. Get him the ball a lot. Secondly he's got have enough speed to make plays down the field. It's hard to. It's hard to play with speed deficient wide receiver. And and and be very consistent. The and If. He's the one he's going to get the ball a lot. You know the quarterback as you know trust wide receivers. That's a chemistry position. They've got to trust each other, and and and they do develop chemistry with certain receivers so. And they're always an anomaly. Michael Michael Love. Urban didn't run real well, but he did other things exceptionally well. But most importantly, he's gotta be able to separate against man to man coverage, tight, minimum, coverage and press. And he's hands have to be totally completely reliable. He has to have those two things if he doesn't have those two things. A likelihood of success, and certainly the likelihood of being a number one for a championship team is not good. Is Funny. I was listening to your podcast. The ineffable podcast with Bill Polian and I was listening to the series life of a scout and you were talking about that. You were talking about how you broke the percentage down for why receives a head to be ninety plus percentage catch rate for them to be on the board. And they had to have all these things, universal characteristics traits, and and that's what's interesting that you brought that up because it's kind of a time tested theory in terms of being able to catch the ball and being consistent in those things now with the metrics. Metrics because you seem like you. One of the first to embrace they call analytics. Now we call the metrics data. It seems like you guys were on the forefront of being able to do when it comes to receivers. How do you track? Would you have your guys kind of track? Their catch rate throughout the absolutely yeah, absolutely back in the buffalo days when we didn't have all the computer capability that we have now. Yes, we had every scout track. Everybody's catch rate throughout, and you can get it off the tape now. It's much easier to do you can have you know do it. But but the bottom line. Is that you better? They better be able to catch the ball, and they better be able to do it consistently, and they better be able to do it in a crowd and. Tom More the great offensive coordinator for us in Indianapolis. WHO IS STILL COACHING ON TAMPA BAY? WHO's a? He's a a football. Philosopher any any says things so clearly and concisely that sometimes they'll snap your head back. We were talking in the draft about a wide receiver and somebody said you know he can really Ron, and he's good. It can separate out of the hands need work, but we can develop is hands, and so I said what? What's his catch ratio so somewhere around? Seventy, nine or eight, seventy, nine or eighty two percent somewhere in there. And Tom said. We have the most accurate quarterback in football. Why would we want to give him somebody who can't catch? That makes sense. I mean it's so true when we talk about development like there's only a small level of development in certain areas that a guy can improve on when they get to the pros and so. In a way, I kind of believe like a guy is what he is. And how does it fit a heard you in your pocket? Talk about prospects are fifty percent of those universal characteristics, highway, speed, queens agility and balance explosiveness, aggressiveness, competitiveness all of those days in in it's fifty percent how the fit into the scheme taking that because of your success Drafting Pass Rushes Bruce Smith in Dwight Frene all those guys. What are the core characteristics that you look for in those guys that are hunting the quarterback. Well it isn't size because nobody could be more disparate than Bruce Smith and Dwight Frantic, they weighed about the same height loss. Differential is about five inches, and the arm length is Breteuil is pretty good to. Robert Mathis of course was also on the on the short side so six or so, and and really in the to forty five range. So the key is. Get off, quick first step quickness. Can you be an offensive tackle off the ball with your first step quickness? That's critical and go back to what Dante Scar. Nekia told me about Brady he was checking to make sure if rainy had beaten. The offensive tackle on the first step. The ball was coming out at Tom was going somewhere else so. First step quickness is critical. GET OFF! Secondly. Can you translate speed into power? Because really good offensive tackles as you know will get to the junction point. And they'll get the junction point. Maybe sooner than you do or certainly intend with you. And at that point. You have to be able to translate that speed into power. And blow through them to the quarterback. That's critic. Because if you can't just stick to them like Velcro, and they win. So get off, translate speak to power. And then the ability to change direction because if you can't change direction. You're a one trick pony rusher. All you've got as an outside Russia and maybe arm over. If you can change direction if you can spend if you can. If you can head, fake can change direction and go under and things like that. Then you've got a rep a TWAT that makes it easy for an offensive tackle to handle. And I and I suspect that. Most fans really don't know what goes into. Preparing each week, but the offensive tackles keep books. On on the rushers. Just like pitchers keep books on hitters in baseball. and vice versa, the Russia's keep books on on offensive tackles so. You gotTA. Have those who things get off it -bility, you know to power through. An and change direction. If you've got that, you got a chance to be pretty good. You've been very generous time. I have two more questions for you. One of those is coming off of your past. Russia thing you mentioned about office tackles, and it used to be your year. There was a distinct left tackle, and then Kinda the plugger pounder Ma brawler played at right tackle whenever we're seeing more teams deploy their pass rushers at left, defensive been spotted at left outside linebacker spot to expose him against the right. Tackle man when you look at an office tackles. Is there any difference between what you're looking at right left because you talked about athleticism for the right tackle. Yeah. I think it's the differences minuscule. You know I. I remember looking at Mike mcglinchey Notre Dame I saw on the staff there, and I looked, and I said you know He. He's he's going to be. I think a pretty good left tackle, but I'm not sure he's powerful enough to be right. Tack Away Plays Right Tackle. Does pretty darn well, and went to the Super Bowl because. What's happening now? Is that so many people have spread the field? We play in fifty three and a third yards. Now the run game is in many respects zone heavy, so you don't have the double team kickout anymore. You don't have to post up. A defensive lineman. You don't have to do things in the run game as an offensive tackle that you used to do in the days of power. Not Everybody. Is. Zone oriented, but a great many of them are an and sixty percent of the time. You're facing nickel because you are in three watts. That's that's the metric, so if sixty percent of the time you're, you're performing one skill as opposed to. Some other skill. Why why would we spend a lot of time worrying about the other skill? You better be able to pass rush a pass block. Excuse me because sixty percent of the time. The likelihood is you're doing that and and so now. You're really looking for pass blocking as the number one criteria for an offensive tackle if he can't. Set and move his feet and do all the things you want to tackle to do. It's hard for him to play. You mentioned something because I. Know You an avid baseball fan and it's funny that you you miss that her. That on your podcast I've heard you of talk about baseball references. When I played for a dictator Ron Jacksonville, he talked about building a football teams just like building baseball team. You GotTa be all championship teams in every sport. You gotta be strong right down the middle, and you mentioned a a spot that I feel like has been a little devalued. The safety position, the free safety and strong taping Jamal Adams kind of having his impasse with Jessica those things. About the value of having. A game changer a big-time playmaker. Whether free safety or strong sit yeah. Ironically Enough Dick was a professional baseball players you know. He played in the red sox chain as well as being a great running back. The Strong safety position I think is one that is becoming more and more important in this game. Because the more we see, the athletic quarterback in. The option. Come into the game. Which didn't exist? What six years ago five years ago. We now have to have a player. In this secondary. Who could either run the alley? I'm not a big fan of running the alley by the way I think it's just too far for anybody to go i. don't care whether it's Bob Senators Troy Paula model mover. That's a mismatch against Lamar, Jackson. I'd rather not have them in the allies so. You need to have close to the line of scrimmage. Who Can. Cover zone. Who can cover a slot in man? And and press a slot. It's necessary. And absolutely take quarterback or pitch. And be able to tackle a Lamar Jackson in space. Or Tackle Cam Newton in space. In order to play solid defense, because now it's love and on eleven. It's not eleven on ten anymore. The way it used to be the run certainly in Iran. So. Who is that guy well? It's Simmons from Clemson. And I think we're GONNA see more and more of those guys coming into the League because the colleges have to deal with that as we do now. Bill parcells used to say we're. We're captives. What the colleges send us well. The colleges are sending US quarterbacks who can run the option and throw like like the you know had the man with the golden arm. and. And so. What they're gonNA send US strong safeties I'd think who can play that role and I I. I've said. I was you know for good for Real I think Simmons is strong safety. He's not aligned back. He's a strong safety in the monitoring modern game, and if you WANNA play him back as Clemson did at times, they played him back deep and covered to. That's great, too, and that's a bonus, but if he can do. Those things around the line of scrimmage and still play good zone defense. I think that guy is invaluable. This? This has been great Like a graduate degree in Scott heard a bunch of different things. from everybody I felt like I've got a bunch of your for Las cruces secondhand, so they have opportunity to talk to. You is fantastic and the one that you mentioned on your products. You mentioned that in Indianapolis your goal was to try and have your draft ward with one hundred or fewer prospects. I think on the outside. People would say that's absolutely crazy. Why did you want it so skin? Why did you want it though so if you could get it that way? We never quite got there, but it was. It was an aspirational goal. We'd end up with one hundred five hundred seven something like that. Bottom line is we want wanted the bar to be very high and we wanted to be very sure. You've probably heard Tony softly by the way who's a great scout in a great administrators. Say this you WANNA be. Wrong for the right reasons. If we're wrong, let's be wrong for the right reasons. Let's know everything about the sky. Let's make sure that we know that he we. He checks every box for us. Let's don't be in a position where we shrug our shoulders and say okay well. We like them a little bit Let's put him in the seventh round, or let's put him in the sixth round. It's just to me. That just muddied the waters. Be sure about everybody and you can't. You can't be sure about two hundred players. You can't be sure about hundred fifty players. Some those are throwing, so we didn't. We didn't want to waste choice necessarily, so the more information we could have the smaller. The board was the better we felt. We could manage on draft day, and we did a pretty good job of that. Because it is was to. Her name's up there. It's much easier to manage. Make Trades and zero in on people, so that that part of it was just part of our philosophy. Because, we felt like the fewer names we had. The more we knew about each guy of it. Thanks much one thing is for certain. You're one of the best who ever done it. From the evaluation standpoint everyone should pay attention to your podcast inside football podcast would bill polling. It is a master's degree in the evaluation and team building process. Thanks so much for joining us I love the conversation. Thanks much Thanks buckets my pleasure. Okay I'M GONNA. Say this. I had I've learned so much. From Mr Polian, on the outside, a lot of contacts and Cross County Library Cross paths like a different times in Buffalo. They talked about him. He was well revered for the way to build their team in Buffalo in Carolina. There are a lot of scouts who kander remain from when he was there, and he built their franchise from the ground up, and you know to have the conversation with him about team building. In the way, the scouting process works was outstanding. Hopefully you guys enjoyed that conversation. Because I know that. I learned a ton. Hopefully, you did as well so that's do it for the show Michelle, the checkout the mood sticks TV show which will air on NFL network at six PM eastern also, we re airs on Friday at four PM, eight PM, midnight and Saturday four pm in eight, a m eastern be sure to tune in next week for the baseball. Shows were sitting down with cubs general manager Jed hoyer Orleans manager Manley Hall of Famer. John smoltz and many many more to kind of talk about the crossover between baseball and football, the team process also the video portion of the mill. Tucker interview will be available soon on Youtube and NFL dot com should download the Buddhist. Expire S at Apple podcast or your favorite podcasts talk to you.