"Beautiful Black Boys"

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If you haven't checked out my new series the end of the world with Josh Clark. The now's a great time to start the holidays are over the doldrums of winter had begun. And there's no better time to explore existentialist dread than right now. But wait, there's more to the end of the world than that. Yes. The series is about existential risks. But it's also about hope the threats that are coming our way that could wipe humans right out of existence. Could also be just the thing that makes us band together. In a way that humanity never has before in the end of the world. I take you on a journey across time and space from the moment and asteroid collided with earth and set off a chain of events that wiped out the dinosaurs to the post biological future where we live in a digital format. If we don't already we'll explore big questions like whether we're alone in the universe and exactly how artificial intelligence could take control of our world from us. It also has a beautiful score. For and cinematic sound design. So it's an adventure for your mind. Which is just the thing to snap. You out of the winter blondes all ten episodes of the end of the world with Josh Clark are available for you to binge now on apple podcasts the iheartradio app or wherever you get podcasts. One quick thing a week ago on Tuesday, January eighth two thousand nineteen the Mendocino county sheriff's office received word from the department of Justice that the foot discovered near the crash site in may was positively identified as belonging to Hannah Hart. It is now believed by officials that she died in the crash with her family. The notice reads, devante heart is still listed as missing person with the Mendocino county sheriff's office. The case remains open and active. Stay tuned for the latest installment of broken hearts. Before we begin today's episode. Listen, I feel compelled to address something we think is vitally important to the story. Were white. Liz is of Irish Catholic descent she has freckles is she thinks green. But I'd say are blue with a swirl of cinnamon. I am of Jewish descent. I have blonde hair and Hayes allies. We were both raised on the east coast. We both attended private colleges in the northeast. We're both mothers to white children for many reasons, we're not the ideal people to delve into the tricky and very problematic race issues that this case presents we'd also be remiss not to talk about these issues as their crucial to the larger sociocultural context of the story. In this episode. You'll hear from Nathaniel Davis who helped raise three of the heart kids before they were adopted and April Dinwoodie who is a transracial adoption expert here in New York and more from Shauna. Jones the lawyer who fought to keep Jeremiah devante and Sierra with their biological aunt. Each of these people has a different perspective on how race and bias may have played a role in the deaths of Marcus Hanna. Devante Abigail, Jeremiah and Sierra heart from glamour and how stuff works. This is broken hearts. I'm Justin Harman, and I'm Liz Egan. Before Jenin, Sarah heart adopted, their second set of siblings in two thousand nine devante, Jeremiah and Sierra had been devante D E V O N T A, Jeremiah J E R M I A H and Sierra C E R A Davis. They had lived in Houston, Texas with their older brother, Dante their mother, Sherry heard and her boyfriend Nathaniel Davis. Who's last name the children had taken even before Sherry Nathaniel got married in two thousand ten here's Muth annual. Oh, I was only. They took us for me and selling to mom rubble and removed from there to Trump to kill the audio quality. Here isn't great but Netanyahu saying that he was the only dad those kids ever had and that CPS removed the siblings from his and cherries care when Sierra was born in two thousand five the children lived briefly with his brother he says before all three entered the Texas foster care system Nathaniel remembers, the three younger siblings personalities. Well, even though he hasn't seen them in over a decade J be used Sierra. Jeez. Allow time to run to always to which it. Remember Nathaniel wasn't the only family these kids had before and Sarah Hart adopted devante, Jeremiah and Sierra in two thousand nine there aunt Priscilla fought hard to get them out of foster care Priscilla hired Houston, attorney shonda Jones to help her plead her case and was successful in having them returned to her care. She even moved to a new house to accommodate the children, but it decision to let their mom. Sheri, watched the kids while Priscilla went to work resulted in the kids being removed from the home, Sherry had a well documented substance abuse problem, according to court records, she was a crack cocaine abuser and was forbidden contact with the kids and CPS exercised a no tolerance policy. The children had only lived with their aunt for five and a half months. Priscilla's decision to at the kids. Mom, babysit was a bad judgment call. Yes. But Sean says the. Tenor of the court proceedings. Stands out in her twenty two years as an attorney. The father's rights terminated because he had back a hall problems and the mother had drug problems. And so that's why their rights were terminated which. I don't take issue with that. I think you know, and that instant that was uprooted thing to do. I always take issue with this case is the harsh manner. The way that they dealt with Masella scene. The presiding judge for that court was Patrick Shelton. Who is now retired in response to questions about how the hearts were allowed to adopt. Devante Jeremiah and Sierra after an allegation of child abuse had already been made against them. He pointed to the lack of criminal charges in the state of Minnesota Shelton told criminal Justice site, the appeal unless there's a criminal charge. What can you do believe it or not kids get bruises that do not get beat Shelton? Also denies reports that he or his associate judge favored non-relative adoptions over placement with family members. The agency that facilitated Jenin Sarah's adoption of Davis siblings. Closed in two thousand eleven it was called the permanent family resource center. The offices were located on a commercial grade of land in Fergus falls, Minnesota, which is about a fifteen minute drive from Alexandria, where the women lived until two thousand thirteen an archived version of the now defunct website says it was started in two thousand by three families who had adopted eight children out of the child welfare system. According to a twenty eight page report filed by the Minnesota department of human services in September two thousand nine only months after Jenin Sarah officially adopted their second set of siblings to the agency the permanent family resource center was placed on conditional status after crewing seventeen licensing violations, the violations ranged from failing to submit paperwork to failure to complete proper back. Checks on families in the past ten years. The Minnesota has only issued three conditional licenses for child placement agencies back win the hearts were clients, the permanent family resource center. Ran the waiting children program. A service that provided families in Minnesota and North Dakota with access to foster kids living in Texas, Washington. Ohio, Idaho, Oregon, Ella -fornia and Florida. The website reads children in this program are living in foster homes or residential facilities and termination of parental rights has occurred. They are legally available for adoption the average wait for child after approval of the home assessment is between six months and three years. It took Jenin Sarah Hart less than a year to legally. Adopt. Devante Jeremiah in Sierra. Or field reporter Lawrence Miley reached out to three former permanent family resource center, employee's about how these children were matched with the hearts as we record this episode. Those emails have not yet been returned. Devante Jeremiah and Sierra stepdad Daniel Davis still has a hard time. Understanding why Jenin Sarah were able to adopt. The children will also being under investigation on allegations of child abuse long moving on key out, it takes he goes on to say, I'm going to tell you why they figured we were poor didn't have nothing to fight them with. They should have given other people in opportunity to adopt them kids after devante, Jeremiah and Sierra were removed from Priscilla scenes care shonda says she barely had a chance to say goodbye to the children. She had cared for for the past several months, but bigmouth elephant maybe thaw them one last time, both Nathaniel and shonda believed the institute. Utilized bias may have informed the court's decision Atma complete feeling that they already had made up their mind almost like you're just wasting their time you're in the way. And it's like this is supposed to be a judicial system where you weigh evidence. Why would you be so emotional and so angry over somebody doing their job? Because this lady wanted to make sure that she kept her niece and nephews and not allow them to go off. And she never see them again in life despite trying to find out more details regarding the siblings adoption shonda says she was never given more information about their placement family, something they should with Brian Fisher was a children's attorney. And he said he would have to fly to Minneapolis. So they sent the kids out of state, and they didn't even make sense. Anyway, as you just Texas is that there's no one why is it this effort to up get these kids out of Texas when Lauren reached Brian Fischer over the phone in August to ask about the case. He said only, no. Ma'am. No, ma'am. No, ma'am. Adoptions are sealed in Texas. Goodbye. It wasn't until March of this year. When shonda saw reports of the crash on TV that she realized what had happened to. Devante Jeremiah and Sierra and who got custody of them so many years ago, I was sitting here in office. And I was looking at the news. I heard them say Minneapolis, the mimic the devante. And then that's when I said, oh my God. Those are the kid shonda called Priscilla to break the news when I finally made the connection which just our fide, and I hate to admit she's somebody who can't listen to lot of bad things that happened. I called her around like eleven o'clock at night. I ask have you heard about that case where that those kids driven off the cliff and she said no show. She says she couldn't hear what I was about to tell her. So I called it back next day. And that's when I revealed to her they were driven off the cliff, and you know, she she she just. She didn't want except that she always thought that the kids are in a better place. But she was you know, she was devastated. Devastated. Like, so many people who learned the fate of Marcus Hanna. Devante Abigail, Jeremiah and Sierra heart Shantou takes issue with the disconnect between the facts and emerged on paper and the fiction. Jen heart presented on Facebook. She recalls reading about a particular post in which Jen called out the racism, her children, experienced on a regular basis kilter being used to prop rented article where think one of their Dopp Demong to fish. She was in a store. She was checking out an older white Donen as this past year. Who was also Cajun we're having this discussion about devante asking him something about where he was going to play sports. And I don't believe for one moment that that conversation took place that never happened. We scour Jen hearts Facebook feed and sure enough opposed from November two thousand fourteen refers to the interaction the post reads, quote, we were standing in the grocery checkout line and. Elderly man was standing at the end of the bagging area conversing with the woman checking us out. He spots are son looks him up and down man colon. I can tell you are going to be a baseball player when you grow up son pauses tilts his head and gives a closed mouth grin. Actually, no baseball, isn't really my thing. The post goes on like this a little bit with the woman bagging groceries in what gender scribes as a befuddled. Nearly honest voice. Saying, quote, what I have never Medicaid that looks like you that doesn't play sports and the man agreeing with a chuckle, right? Never. They all do gentleman's having to watch her child be subjected to ongoing racial stereotyping, but doesn't step in. Instead, she says her son responds. Well, of course, you've never met a kid like me, I'm one of a kind. I'm going to be myself. No matter how much people try to make me something. I am not. She adds at the end. I think this kid will be all right. No matter what is tossed at him. This kind of storytelling from gen may seem benign at first, but when it factors into an ongoing pattern of isolation and chronic abuse, the narrative takes on a sinister undertone Jenin Sarah Hart had taken six black kids from Houston. One of the most diverse cities in America and moved them. From one rural town to the next for context. A two thousand seventeen cents is report found that woodland Washington. The last place the hearts lived is at least ninety two percent white only point three percent of Woodland's population is black. You know, people say necessity is the mother of invention. But that's not always true. Sometimes the mother of invention is advertising. Yeah. Or pure accident. How about ego maniacal delusion? Absolutely. Or just a desperate longing. To be cool. I'm Robert lamb, and I'm Joe McCormick. We're the host of the science podcasts stuff to blow your mind. And now we're branching off into the exploration of invention. Invention is the story of human history told one piece of technology at a time the things we made and how they made us invention publishes every Monday, listen and subscribe to invention on apple podcasts the iheartradio app or wherever you find your podcasts. Friends of the heart often recount the stories Jannine Sarah told about how unwelcoming their neighbors were how much abuse this unconventional family faced and how insane it was for them at times. Bill Groner live next door to them in west linn, Oregon where the population is eighty nine percent. White Bill believes that maintaining a sense of fear might have helped Jenin Sarah, keep the ongoing abuse under wraps. He spent the past four years playing keyboard at mount olive Baptist church in north Portland. The website for mount olive it claims. The church was built in one thousand nine hundred seven from lumber provided by the Ku Klux Klan to keep the African American organization on what they deemed the proper Sida town for the record Bill is white always played music in church play at an African American troops will aware about you'll racism may be covert rather than over even if it's kind of almost sublime. I could see parents wanting to protect the kids. Always that. Maybe that's part of why the told the kids to kind of not be overly conversational or friendly with neighbors because people could secretly harbor prejudice against you. But when you read more about what's what actually happened? I don't think they want the kids to tell what was going on. I think that's really part of the deal 'cause all would have taken one kid come over and say, I'm hungry. Could I have some food for me to call children's services Greiner? If only one who noted the way, the heart women, especially gen would cut their family off from outsiders, but they're festival friend. Ian, Sperling only came to that realization after they died. It's like, okay. So we have some date set up. They cancelled like let's plan a play date at the park last Tuesday. Oh, yeah. That'd be great. And then the day comes. Hey, we're not going to be around. You know? A few little things here. And there that you know, we never thought anything more about now looking back. It's like she was shielding them from being close to people. I felt like we were really close with them. But at the same time are they like our family that just stops by all the time. You know, not at all now looking back. There was some dumb omens there. The in particular, like, Marcus, Marcus in Jeremiah, they were very reserved and almost stoic in nature. And then when you talked to boom snap into a smile snap into personality. And then boom, right when you stopped talking to go right back to still face got closer than most back in June two thousand eighteen our field reporter, Lauren. Tuck to Ken WADA, K an activist who started the free hugs project. Ken. I reached out to the family when he saw that viral image of devante hugging. Police officer at the black lives matter rally, he thought perhaps he could mentor. The boy, here's Lauren Ken wate K. I held a free hug sign at the Boston marathon. In twenty fourteen. He soon extended his campaign for peace and racial understanding to black lives matter rallies in college campuses across the country. When devante photo when fire all six months, later, Ken social media lit up can read about how devante white moms. You'll so notice the boys curious outfit fedora hat leather, peacoat and wise looking face the age of which was hard to peg. He sent a direct message to jen's account on Facebook. When his photo of him holding free hook sign and crying in front of the officer. When that went viral, my social media went crazy because it was the second time and African American was showing like that in regards to law enforcement, and that's what my work of the free hugs project, really begins. And so shortly after devante hearts photo comes. Out with him holding that for young site in front of a police officer and getting all of these emails from people saying, can you work is spreading look at the impact of that. You're having even on young people and so right away. I felt like I need to meet this kid. And so I started searching online and the made contact with their family via Facebook. Devante benefit from having a black male figure in his life. In fact, it was something he himself had craved growing up. I was raised by Seibel mother. And I appreciate my mother in all of the strength is she had to raise four boys and my sister, but my higher life. I longed for a father. Originally can thought he was messing with devante. But then it became clear he was chatting with an adult Jen over Facebook. She said she preferred her children live what she called a private lifestyle. Understandable, really how many parents out there willingly connect their young children with strangers over the internet, and after the amount of attention that photo solicited all the more reason to be protective still the two remained friends on Facebook a choice Ken now believes was intentional on jen's part. Kind of intercepted that potential friendship or connection. We could have had it wasn't until after that. I was like, oh now it all makes sense. You wanted them to live a private lifestyle because if he would have started sharing with me food was being withheld. She kept a very close circle of people. She can kind of play this role with fit everything is. Okay. And so then the truth one get out or they wouldn't believe it back when we started looking into this story. We wanted to better understand what it takes to make a blended family like the hearts work in the real world. Lauren spoke with April Dinwiddie, a transracial adoption expert and the former executive director of the Donaldson adoption institute. It didn't what he's expertise and transracial adoption starts close to home. She was adopted out of foster care as a toddler by a white family in Rhode Island the way your family dealt. With their racial differences was to not talk about race at all as an adult hungry to connect with black culture. April move to Harlem, she became CEO of the Donaldson adoption institute and mentors kids of color who are adopted by white families. She used to host a workshop called what my white parents did it. No. And why I turned out. Okay. Anyway. April vocal about the flaws in the adoption system. More often than not professionals are underpaid black children are represented not enough. Attention is paid the bias training. Sometimes adoptions are rushed. If you look at what tends to happen when it comes to data states can have a vents of not leaving young people in foster care for a long time. So things get rushed. So sometimes termination of rental rights happens too quickly sometimes in adoption happens too quickly. She also believes that the American perception of adoption is binary adoptive. Parents are good parents who can't take care of their children bad. She says not enough attention is paid to the grey areas that exist what kind of words come up when he think of parents who have their rights terminated poor drug abusers addicts, you know, all these really loaded terms. And then you say what comes up for you with parents? Who adopt family love safety. And then even when you look at you know, families parents relinquish voluntarily. There is a much warmer feeling about that versus parent from have their rights terminated. It's something that we have in bedded in our perceptions like Shana Jones, April believes that the system may have favored the hearts, the family like the hearts, I could see how they would be very appealing within the Fusco system. Very peeling. She says there is no way to discuss this case without taking a hard look at what she calls the deep layers of racism within the child welfare system, the somebody issues of just racism in raising class differences. It's just hard not to have that just be so front and center, you know, you have an aunt who's ready willing and able and you've got families that are struggling for whatever reason and doing what they can to rehabilitate in their people of color, and then you've got white family resources available, and you can see it coming. So clearly. No that that this is how this would play out minced Atushi racism within child welfare. Is there? There's no question as a woman of color who is taken in by white. Parents APRIL's uniquely aware of the challenges of transracial, adoption, how important questions about identity can get glossed over or how child may grow to feel embitterment toward their birth culture. Or is if they're stuck between two worlds, first and foremost, they should be living in diverse areas with examples teachers and community members friends close friends of the family that are people of color like you just can't raise a Brown or black kid in a situation where they're one of a few people of color is just not safe anymore. Son emotionally, save is not physically safe. So I think I four formal they should be living in diverse areas in Paris to be uncomfortable. Right. Like white parents need to make it their business to go and be in places where they're the minority. So they can get a little bit of a sense of what their kid feels ultimately she believes jen's multiple pleased for racial, understanding and. On Facebook, not to mention the family's presence at protests was self congratulatory. Just remember looking at devante face went back into the two thousand fourteen right? It was like it just struck man. I had no idea on a new idea that he was a young person that was involved in foster system. But but something didn't sit right into so much pain and not and it just felt like if felt uncomfortable to me on a sleigh. Just just did. And then to find out his backstory, and this tragic end to his life. It just enforces. This idea that parents do operate this way. Which is in a look what we did were symbols of, you know, racial harmony, and our kids are are evidence of that. And it's just really really uncomfortable in exploitive in. Heartbreaking, and it's really calculated. Right. Was it calculated or was it ignorant? If you read jen's heartfelt words on the topic of systemic racism. You might find yourself impressed by her conviction on July seventh two thousand sixteen. She took to Facebook to air her frustrations. My beautiful black boys. She wrote alongside a picture of Jeremiah and devante smiling in hoodies and beanies. We talk endlessly about realities of this world, so much beauty so much pain and suffering. These boys live and lead with love. But I will never deny them their human right to be frustrated sad and angry about the perpetual violence and murder of people of color, my feed is filled with people white and POC that want to help make a difference. But are completely at a loss of what to do. Opening up and breaking the silence is a start because white silence is black death. If that statement makes uncomfortable. I'm not sorry. Black pain matters. Black anger matters. Black lives matter. Back in two thousand seven after Jannine, Sarah Dopp, did Marcus Hanna and Abigail a caseworker visited the women's home in Minnesota her findings were positive. She recommended that Jannine Sarah be allowed to adopt a sibling group up to five more children. Her report filed on July eleventh two thousand seven read the hearts are open to any race gender. Although they would prefer to have at least one boy in the sibling group Jenin Sarah have adopted by racial children. And they have the tools and knowledge to adopt more children from the African American heritage. They are prepared to advocate for their children and to secure the necessary services to support their family over the course of our reporting Lauren has reviewed over eight hundred pages of material from the Clark county sheriff's office in Washington. Among the documents are official caseworker reports and personal emails from the heart women, and it appears they did. Try at least at first to create a nurturing and culturally aware home for their children before they even received the first set of kids generated an Email in January two thousand six tour adoption agency caseworker talking about having set up an appointment with a child psychologist who she calls. Simply the best of the best gen- wrote. We registered him ace app because there's a waiting list about three or four months out. They talked about enrolling Marcus in special education. Jen calls the school. The most diverse in the district. A caseworker wrote up a conversation. She had with Jen reflecting on the transracial adoption homework. Jen had completed about places and people African American kids could identify with it said the gen had identified the black student union at a local university. The caseworker writes about Jen just purchase a couple more children's books about African American. Heritage one book is called. Martin's big words about Martin Luther King in pictures that were released of the inside of the hearts home in Washington. Their home, libraries showed what looked like African masks hung on the wall, the book collection included books like Mandela and the immortal life of Henry at a lex. Another thing that really stood out was back in March two thousand nine Email to some friends. This is after the adoption of the second set of kids Jensen's how well the kids are doing and mentioned the maternal aunt trying to get the kids back. Gen wrote the kids are all doing swell. I don't know why they insist on growing up on me Sierra will be four next month, Abby and Jeremiah five now, devante six Hannah seven and Marcus ten devante. Jeremiah Sierra are doing credibly. Well, you wouldn't know they are the same kids that came to our home nine months ago. I'm so proud of them for all they have -ccomplish in such a short time. We finalize their adoption last month. Thank goodness. I have been a ball of Zion. He just waiting for that data come until a couple months ago. A maternal aunt was still trying to get them back long story. Happy ending or beginning. I'm Ariel Casten. I'm Jonathan Strickland and together we're going to tell you the stories behind some of the biggest triumphs and failures and business. That's right. We're going to explore situations that tested the medal of entrepreneurs pivotal moments required making decisions we'll be talking about some big companies that everybody knows like Disney LEGO and Harley Davidson and together we try to answer the question. What do you do when you find yourself at the brink? Listen and subscribe at apple podcasts or on the iheartradio app or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Two thousand fifteen evaluation of data on six hundred children adopted Minnesota examined whether being raised by someone of a different race is inherently damaging and the conclusion was no Emma Hamilton, the lead author and a doctoral candidate in counseling psychology at the university of Texas at Austin, put it this way. Being raised by someone of a different race is not inherently damaging to the development of the adoptees. But much depends on how white parents talk about race with their children of color and help them identify with people of their own race this mirrors. What April Dinwoodie has found in her personal and professional life. You'll will have to become an activist. And I think true activists one that goes into the school and says black and Brown kids or just funded higher rates. You've gotta make yourself known to say, hey, not my kid really got it become in. No, a champion of your child safety physically and emotionally. I think the hearts tried to sort of like put that idea out there of like racial kind of coming together. But it was like very very superficial and uncomfortable, frankly, and how they paraded the children around just that not what that looks like what really looks like when you embrace bringing a child of Clarence your family and your white family better people like your kid. Community better, you know, really authentic and the way because up unto learning about birth family. Like, you know, there are a lot of ethnicities and cultures within black and white people and Brown people. So it's kind of like you have some information. So that you actually know what you're can may have been experiencing in their birth family. In so many ways the mythologies Jenin Sarah Hart told about their children had their intended effect. They told people the kids were crack babies a nineteen eighties term now widely debunked. People believed them for April Dinwiddie these stories are evidence of white savior ISM, the idea that white people can swoop in and fix non white people. One of those things that really just makes me so angry because at the end of the day, it may well be true that these young people come with those traumatic experiences that manifest in behavioral health issues. Back means about family needs more. Support knows those parents who are going to tear those children need not use that as as any form of excuse or even be talking about private things about their children, unless it's with a licensed therapist that draws so much suspicion and so much just a motion around the fact that that would be utilized as a way to mask some of the abuse neglect that was happening within the whole it system. Just disturbing inspir- alling. Now sees how the use of loaded terms like crack babies may have helped reinforce certain narrative. Everyone was very envious of them because of how they could pull this off how they can raise six quote, unquote, developmentally delayed children. Good view. Nice work. You say, you know, that was the narrative always, you know, we talked extensively about it. So it was just like, you know, she had a very detailed story about how they were opted and what they went through prior. There's a lot of white sceviour 'isms symbolic in this story. Now that I never understood or knew about trying to build this portrait of a, you know, idealistic situation or these white ladies came in and safety six black children. Which just me? It's tough. We love those kids so much. Okay. So sorry. jenin. Sarah's artfully spun stories were alarmingly effective. They neatly explained away some of the kids strange behavior while also reinforcing a cocoon of silence around what happened behind closed doors. The kept the kids from being able to connect with people who had similar backgrounds. They kept the neighbors from interfering. These stories even prevented the children from me in touch with their own flesh, and blood and most importantly, these stories insured that the voices of the heart. Children were never ever heard. if you suspect to child is being abused. Call one eight hundred four H child that's one eight hundred numeral four A C H I L D or visit child help dot org to find out how to report your concerns. Next time on broken hearts when I realized that she was on school. There's no way in hell. Those kids are learning. I mean, really party came here. Don, scoured bluffs with fancy helicopters and airplanes and boats. I can't even magic how many miles he walked on those beaches and bluffs and drove around and sat on that cliff with binoculars day after day after day after they remember making this comment like you're like an abused wife. And she just kind of gave me this look like, no kidding. For access to exclusive photos and videos and documents about the case, visit glamour dot com slash broken hearts have questions for us about this podcast reach us on Twitter at glamour MAG or at broken hearts pot. If you like what you heard leave us a review broken hearts is a joint production between glamour and how stuff works with new episodes dropping every Tuesday broken hearts is co hosted and co written by Justin Harman and Elizabeth Egan and edited by Wendy Nakal, Lawrence Miley is our field. Reporter Samantha berry is glamorous editor in chief. Julie Chen and Deanna buckman head up the business side of this partnership. Joyce Pendle pet singer and Luke Celeski our research team Jason Hoke is executive producer on behalf of how stuff works along with producers, Julian Weller, Ben key, brick and Josh state special. Thanks, jen. Lance. You know, people say necessity is the mother of invention. But that's not always true. Sometimes the mother of invention is advertising. Yeah. Or pure accident. How about ego maniacal delusion? Absolutely. Or just a desperate longing. To be cool. I'm Robert lamb, and I'm Joe McCormick. We're the host of the science podcasts stuff to blow your mind. And now we're branching off into the exploration of invention. Invention is the story of human history told one piece of technology at a time the things we made and how they made us invention publishes every Monday, listen and subscribe to invention on apple podcasts the iheartradio app or wherever you find your podcasts.

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