#202: Hitler Heil-arity, Pt. 2: Jojo Rabbit


We keep the line between the past. You believe there's someone out of the past and and turn take possession of a True Path not through with us. Welcome welcome back to the next picture. Show a movie the week podcast to a classic film in the way it shaped our thoughts on recent release. I'm Scott Tobias here again with Tash Robinson and genevieve Kofsky on our last episode. So we talked about Mel Brooks the producers which broach the sticky question of how to make a comedy around it. All Hitler on this episode. Were being Joe Joe Rabbit tyco tease controversial. The all new coming of age film about a ten year old German boy named Joe Joe Bessler in the waning days of World War. Two Joe Lives alone with his caring mother. Rosie played by like Scarlett Johansson. And he's firmly. In the nationalist grasp of Nazi Germany. Thanks in part to his relationship to his imaginary friend at of Hitler played by. What T- t- while well in a Hitler Youth Training Camp Joe Develops a relationship? With a cynical captain Clinton dorf played by Sam Rockwell. But back home his loyalties are complicated by the discovery of Jewish girl. Hiding hiding in the upstairs crawlspace. Her name is Elsa core. Played by Thomas. Mackenzie and while Georgia's instinct is Turner in. He's persuaded that doing so would get his mother killed over time. Of course feeling start to change as he listens less to his imaginary friend in more to the girl in the crawlspace into his own developing conscience. It's at the same time. The war is starting to turn against the Nazis and dramatic fashion and a reckoning for Joe. Joe In the country is at hand will talk about how it all goes down after the break This episode of the next picture show is supported by skill share. You can join the millions of students already. Learning on skill share today with a special offer just for next picture show listeners. Get two months of skill share for free at skill share dot com slash. Next next picture boys will be involved in such activities as four-game ambush techniques Zimba stuff. I don't think I can use news. Of course you can on comes to edge. I had an imaginary friend coming in so much trouble. Take time to some growing up to ten year olds from celebrating war and talking politics. I wish more of a young boys had your blind fanaticism. Did he the juice might towers. You know if you saw one just like us. Josiah rabbit by TAIKA WAITITI whatever. You think. I saw this tiff. I wrote about it I talked on. NPR about it. So I I feel like I'm repeating myself feel like I've been on this hamster wheel for a a couple months now but I was pretty mixed on it like mixed to negative but not for the reasons that made a controversial not because of Tekoa. Td Playing Hitler. Not because of making trying to make Hitler funny all. I will say When I saw this a tiff I saw it back back with terrence malick a hidden life which is a twelve twenty hour? At least I'm show twenty hours exploration of needed to be. Ah God it's so long It's a terrible if they long and incredibly depressing exploration of the destruction of the life of an Austrian conscientious this objector by beloved slow crushing wheels of Hitler's Germany. and seeing the films back to back it's pretty much like you said in the in the first I episode with not reminding people what Hitler did because it makes it harder to take the comedy seeing Joe Giradi as this you know kind of like light hearted. Oh Oh Hitler is a like a wacky character. And then the just experiencing in a very large scale like the agonies of what he actually did people what his policies assisted to people What the heck did people really takes the humor? Out of it Nonetheless that wasn't really my problem with the film. My problem with the film was first. I that it starts as a pretty fun like unconventional playful. Kind of WES. Anderson Comedy Not Not just because of the setting is so reminiscent of Monroe Kingdom But because of the lateness and quirkiness and fussiness really of the setting of the the humor. There's a very you know new-zealand deadpan comedy that takeaway. Td has perfected That's very cultural Roland. Very specific to him that plays out Throughout the first third of the movie and I really enjoyed it once we get into the business with a girl in the attic suddenly. We're in a film that I've seen many many times and I'm pretty tired of I was fine with it when it was the boy in the striped pyjamas. I thought it was pretty badly done when it was the book thief but this idea of the German kid and the Jewish kid in the attic that needs to be protected or really just the friendship between a German kid a and a Jewish child has been done over and over and over as a way to explore Nazi Germany and the human cost of it and it just felt very trait to me. It felt very familiar and it felt overdone and sentimental intrigue really in a way that I didn't appreciate I thought Scarlett Johansson character was interesting and had a lot going on for her and the dynamic there was interesting so then the movie just kind of boots her out of the story and at the point where it does was it just starts becoming increasingly implausible for me that Joe Joe is able to keep any of this up the links that he goes to to keep his secret under control it all just kind of falls apart into like cliche and familiar mawkish sentiment for me and it just it really didn't live up to the potential either of the first third of the movie or just of every Tekoa T- film that I've seen up until now which I don't disagree disagree with some of the things you're saying tosh although I think I was more positive over all than you I really liked Scarlett Johansson in this movie and I found the mother son relationship they're much more engaging than the one between Joe and Elsa and was not particularly enamoured of how how the Joe Elsa a relationship resolved but I also wouldn't really go so far as to say that the movie becomes mawkish in the end I think that it remains fairly audacious up through the invasion by allied forces at the very end and setting aside the whole like we dance because we're free button which I think is definitely where you know treads until life is beautiful territory and in not pleasing way ah I think there is enough of that sort of deadpan humor that you're talking about juxtaposed with real images of horror through the end of the film that it keeps that sort of tonal tension going to the end in a way that that made it work for me I don't have no problems with his movie but I I overall enjoyed it I think what td is a very interesting assured filmmaker and that comes through here as for like the controversial aspects of this this movie. I'm you guys both side at Taffer. Just-you Tasha a just Tasha. I saw I just saw recently. Okay it seems like a lot of the narrative about at this being controversial came out of tiff. But I'm kind of having trouble putting my finger on specifically what the controversy is meant to be other than the fact that this is yet another another movie about a funny Hitler. which has this pairing shows? It's not the first one of so. It almost feels like the quote quote unquote controversy around. This movie is maybe a little bit of a marketing thing happening. But I would. I would like to be convinced from you. Know people who who have been perhaps more engaged in the conversation from an earlier. Point like wear. The controversies comes from here is the Sam Rockwell character. I I feel like it could maybe be there. I mean my understanding was it's not. It's not so much a controversy. As that's one of the few words we have in the English language for something that people disagree three about like our favorite word for it It was polarizing People critics and viewers alike either tend to love it or ten to hate it and and there are different reasons for that pope. Part of it is just a lot of people just find it offensive. Just find it taking lately things that should not be taken lightly the NPR show. That I was on To discuss this one of the other panelists was somebody highly placed at the Holocaust Museum and they brought him in just specifically to talk about like like the history of making light of the Holocaust in film and sort of where the dividing line Falls between making fun of victims and making fun of Like like big emotions. Essentially where where the line is between making fun of Hitler and making fun of the people who suffered under him so like part of it is definitely. He's sort of based around. Is it okay to joke about this. Which I think we're in a cultural moment where we're questioning that more than we ever have? Before but part it just flat out comes from the the sensation that a lot of people walked out of this movie like angry and resentful and hating it. And there doesn't seem this seems to be one of those films where there's not a ton of middle ground For people who are like that was an experience. Yes that's my reaction. I'm perplexed by people who would take the stance like Oh. This is just a offensive. I hate this thing. It's just it because I to me my issue with the film is that it's kind of weak sauce. I don't think it's nearly as provocative as it could be and should should be and it certainly doesn't live up to needing like a tagline like an anti hate satire. It's early a satire and I didn't really feel like it's agendas is necessarily anti hater feeling. It's it's almost like base covering on the part of the studio but I don't feel like the film is at all like you film. Life is beautiful. It's like Oh yeah okay. This film mm-hmm is really going for something and you can certainly see understand why people would react strongly against a movie like that but I mean there's a lot of sobering moments in this film. I mean you could say well you can if you can if you're going to say well it's minimizes Nazi Germany. I mean come on. This kid's mom is like hanging in the Public Square. I mean this is not this film delivers livers in that respect it. May It delivers the fear. That people are feeling I mean to me one of the scenes. The film I really like is when Stephen Merchant turns up with the Gestapo won't start searching the house and questioning people and you know everyone's making with how Hitler's and whatnot Is Kenny is coming down now. He stand on the landed usual. Very excited here sorry cute. He's become super social. He's not on a shy boy he's a little Brat so let's go back to that scene. I was talking about and hopefully Julius will Not Distract US too much more so yeah so so. That scene really captured what. I was missing for the rest of the movie which is a real tension between danger and comedy is. It's a very funny scene but there is that threat of just like this thing could unravel. It could be terrible for everybody. I mean because if this girl is found and this is that's bad for Joe and that's bad for the girl and that's bad for the the mother I guess who are going to be bad for anyway and I that was absent for the rest of the film of founded the film to be acute which which is not a lot of the time and then clawing for some of the other time. And it just didn't deliver for me a very strong experience. Either way I just. I felt needed to provoke more than it did. I just feel like I mean for me. Scarlett Johansson's death just in land at all it's meant to be This moment moment of of shocking loss and grief and power and for me. I'm just not sure that I can feel those kinds of emotions coming shortly on the heels of an extended in lengthy joke about where the Queen Julie's her eggs disbelievers so over the top in so many ways about misperceptions Russians of the other and what happens to the brains of people who are steadily fed a diet of propaganda. It's meant to be ridiculous like other things that Joe by rabbit believes are just so over the top and ludicrous in the same way that gene wilder and zero mastel seem to be in different movies. I I like rebel Wilson and Scarlett Johansson in this movie lake. Just they're they're on completely different planets in terms of what what their characters are trying to do like where they where they land How they work and I just for me like I enjoyed the comedy aspects of the film fine but pretty much any attempts to to head into hardcore heavy duty sentiment? I was like you're just in the wrong movie for this. You've set up apprentice. Who's in the right movie and not Scarlett Johansson? I rebel Wilson is in a completely different from everybody else including Sam Rockwell Allen. The Allen and I don't know that I would like that movie she she maybe she's in the producer's like she's definitely a completely different variety of movie of of comedy than an awful lot of this movie is operating I to me it. Just the whole movie feels disjointed. It's a whole bunch of parts that to me don't fit together at all you know who uh-huh definitely in Taiko T. movie and this movie Tekoa team yes but also archie gates who plays his friend Yorkie. I Dam Sterling. He's just such a quintessential like Taika waititi child character. You know and that aspect of his voice just comes out in that character very much for the wilder people type type of Kid I feel like there's a separate movie this just everything he's doing during Ms Film and it's a hunt for the wilder people type movie And it's much better than this one. I I mean I love hunt for the wilder people. It's one of the few movies that I can without reservation like recommend too cynical bitter twisted film critics and like people want something safe to show their grandma or their kids. It's like it's just to me. It's just perfect family friendly movie and I wanted this to be as different from like pass is total cost to movies as hunt. For Wilder people is from you know most most family friendly uplift movies and I feel like he's trying for that like I give him points for ambition and I give him points for trying to break out outside the box and do something unconventional and something. Something daring that. Most people wouldn't go into. I just don't think he's doing it very well. Well I mean I think what he's doing is something. He's done several times before it's making a coming of age movie. You know what this really is is about the character of Joe. Joe And it's it's just like wrapped in these Nazi Germany trappings. That ended up injecting a lot more elements into the film that are maybe less successful. But like the heart of this movie is like jo-jo figuring out himself outside of an outside role model or force you know whether it's Hitler his mother also like he's kind of projecting onto these other figures in in his life and on the way to figuring out what he wants and what kind of person person he is and it doesn't really and I think like looking at it as a coming of age movie. The ending doesn't land for me because it just it feels. He's like at cheats. It takes a shortcut to resolution for that character. You know with the were free and we dance nonsense so I think maybe that's where the sort of sense so there's not enough. Danger is coming from because it seems like it's telling one type of story but it's actually telling a very conventional kind of story that's just kind it. has this wrapping around it. I just what he does. His thing totally doesn't really suit the setting all that well a lot of the time I me you know what he does. You know you think about like what we do in the shadows Ortho Ragnarok or hunt for the wilder people and there's just there's a silliness a innocence jokey. Oh keenness in lightness to them that this film kind of struggles to incorporate smoothly but sometimes when it does it's kind of thrilling. I mean like the very very beginning of the film is like really electric. You know just when you get when you get into that really cool montage set to a German version of a Beatles Song. I thought that was great. I liked the evocation of something like a hard day's night where it's like. Oh Yeah Beatlemania and Hitler maniac kind of the same kind of thing right. The implication being I mean just like you know that you've got people who just swept up in this hysteria in one of them is more malevolent than the other but the nature of that kind of mass pass movement is is same in something kind of like. It's hard as an ordinary person not to become part of that area. At least it should be harder than it said why but it. It's one fits and starts. This film works for me. But there's also kind of this secondhand wes Anderson Quality to a lot of it is Tasha talked about Moon Rise Kingdom. I definitely thought about win when Rise Kingdom and all the Hitler Youth Camp Scenes It's just I don't know it just it didn't it just doesn't the whole thing just doesn't come together like it's supposed to. Embolism kind of a little surprised that it is having quite the impact that it has Is Having in either direction that could be this polarizing because to me it's just like like it just isn't strong enough in either to earn either either into those reactions. Yeah I see what you're saying. I just really think that if the film and followed through on the promise of those early scenes I feel like the conflict between Joe Joe and the other boys the environment that he's he's in where there's a lot of cultural tension Because of you know Germany's because again of the propaganda that everybody's been fed because of this feeling feeling that German power is defined a certain way and that they all have to embody it. This feeling that you know all of these like eight and twelve eight and ten and twelve year world's needs to represent some form of masculinity by doing things like killing a bunny that to me felt a lot reeler are and buy real. I don't necessarily mean could happen in the real world. I mean like evocative of actual emotions sort of metaphorically evocative of what people go through with with bullying all the time what people go through with believing the things that their parents tell them believing the things that they hear on television just Osmo zing in certain beliefs about the world that they hold to like in in that level of childhood. Just very very strongly you know that they believe the complete truth about the world world. I think exploring that in the way that he does in that first. Act Up into the point of of Joe Joe like horribly injuring himself in a a an attempt to be what he thinks he needs to be. I think that would have just been such a more powerful story and I feel like that story takeaway. Td as Hitler which we. I don't really talked about ticket with. TV's performance at all take team's performance as Hitler which is just so in keeping with the kind of like late. Bouncy humor are and dark under core of that that I act And I wish the whole movie followed up on that and didn't try to take us into the the realm of of dead parents and bathos basically. Yeah I don't know The more you talk about this movie the more I want to defend it even away play like I said I. I don't not have problems with it. But like regarding the Wes Anderson Ian Beginning I think what. YTD would say based on in some interviews. I've read with him. Is that in those opening scenes. He is trying to evoke a world seen through the eyes of a child you know. It's a childlike mentality. Taliban both visually and in the dialogue and I think again going back to the sort of being a coming of age film the ideas that that stuff stuff should fall away or become more complicated. Somehow as as the movie progresses as jo-jo becomes more more complicated in his his outlook on life. I don't think the movie does that like on a on a style level. You know. I don't think it's it has a strong sense. It's tone as it. Progresses does in those beginning moments. When we're just getting like pure uncut child Joe Joe? You know it doesn't quite know how to grow as a movie along with its protagonist at that makes sense. I think it kind of maybe gets a little muddled because of that. I think that that makes a Lotta Sense. Yeah I think it's true that there's kind of like am mccade go into Camp Kinda you've even though it's a different kind of camp one positive aspect of it because the film does have it does have a lot going for me. One thing I liked about the film to was how specific it was invoking the end of the war And I think it does a lot through the Sam Rockwell character to just it's like what are we doing now this is this is a losing cause instill character. Very interesting not not unproblematic. But I think there's a there's is a lot going on in that character and there's a definite progression to that character has a very strong. I feel that we see play out in the movie. You know your your question about where controversy comes from this movie. I know that a lot of people that were angered that we're very angered by this movie. Like one of the big points of contention was whether her this movie gives him too much of an arc whether it is offensive to celebrate positive. Yeah to give a Nazi redeeming breath redeeming human ending to his art. Basically this is another thing. We'll talk about. I'm sure connections but I think the fact that that character I think is pretty clearly coated skeie and also figured allows the progression. His character takes too. I think it earns it but I can see not agreeing with that. mcsally excited to see this. This is a trailer of sorts for our prefer off for connections. Because that's a that's a good thought. I think I think that is the type of character who represents what I wanted this movie to be of of someone who because that is a that is a provocative character and dynamic Emma character and again we're reaching this point in the war that the film does such a good job of opening of just like this is this is the end in in what what a waste. I you know what a waste that we have to go through any of this that these boys have to go through this this training camp. And the you know if it's GonNa make any difference at all you know what a waste. I of course that people still have to lose their lives and be tormented by the shop. Oh and and It's just it's all for nothing because the writings on the wall. It's this is not going to be Winning effort on there's also like part of that end of the war aspect is just getting back to Yorkie Who is such an adorable such tyco? Td character and threw him just kind of seeing like how desperate Germany has become like how strained their resources are like how far they've had had to push in order to try to keep training people. You know this. This little boy now thinks of himself as a soldier thinks of himself very factual I has quite a bit nerve weapons training under his belt. That that's the great visual gag at the Ed is so great with the I think the way in the trailer to of him just accidentally Italy firing rocket launcher. That's good stuff and for me that that Kaerlek when genevieve talked about how great that character is that character. kind of sums up again. What the movie could have done and isn't doing like that combination of very New Zealand? Humor summer in his his. Kind of DEADPAN. Effectual nece like his his dedication to the cause his the way he takes everything super super seriously but is still coated in a way that we can kind of like chuckle at him At both how ineffectual he is and how cute he is like. It's just it's a neat little. A package of this is a horrible thing. That's happening. You know this is a child soldier. Whose childhood has been taken away and yet it doesn't affect them at all a key still like in this this late? Eight and sunny place. He's still sort of having fun and doing his duty. Like it's a very rich complicated character that we really only get for a few moments. Maybe she he wouldn't be nearly as strong if we spent more time with him. A lot to talk about with with this movie and with the producers and the connections are not that many connections really between Tweeden. So we'll be right back after the break to do connections we spent a Lotta time analyzing and discussing other people's creative works. But do you have your own creative outlets I do but with work in the PODCAST and planning a wedding sometimes. It's just hard to find the inspiration. I just do something creative for yourself. You know. Yeah I know it can be hard to get started on a new project and then even harder to stay motivated actually finish a project so if an enjoying exploring skill share an online learning community for the crater at all of us the thousands of classes and everything from film and video production. TOO graphic design to creative writing all onto band. So you can learn at your in pace. And they're video. Lessons are more than just teaching you how to do something there about helping you get inspired and motivating you to keep learning whether you want to dive into a new creative endeavor or developing nurture in assisting one. Yeah I mean I've been a quote unquote professional writer for over a decade now. But I was still excited to dig into skill shares creative writing classes because when writing writing as your job sometimes you can lose that drive to write for yourself and skill share. Classes are a great way to sort of recharge my create a batteries. Not only can I sit with amazing writers like Susan Orleans Roxane Gay while they break down their approach to creative nonfiction and personal essays. But each of those classes are accompanied by prompts and resources to help inspire you to apply what you've just just learn to your own creative writing. I'm currently really into the ten day. journaling challenge class with Emily Gould which is accompanied by daily writing. Prompts that you follow for nine days and then on the tenth day they use what Emily teaches you in the lesson to revise what you wrote into a standalone piece and you can even share your projects with others in the skill share community to get feedback and encouragement from him and who doesn't love feedback and encouragement. Speaking of which you're doing a great job. Thank you Tasha though. I prefer you leave your positive feedback on my skill share project. Well maybe I will and our listeners can too when they sign up for and try skill share for themselves next picture show listeners can now join the millions of students already learning unskilled share and get two months free when you sign up skill share dot com slash next pitcher that's two months of unlimited access to thousands of classes for free go to skill share dot com slash next picture to sign up that's skill share dot dot com slash next pitcher and thanks to share for supporting the next picture. Show Court Joe Joe Little Man I don't I want to tell me about that. Habit incident was all that about. They wanted me to kill it. I'm sorry I couldn't don't worry about it. I couldn't care less now. They call me scared. Rabbits let them say whatever they want. People used to say a lot of nasty things about me. Oh this guy's a lunatic. Oh look at that psycho. He's GonNa get us all killed. Let you in on a little secret. The Rabbit is no coward. The Humble Little Advani faces a dangerous world every day hunting carrots for his family for his country. My Empire would be full of all animals. Now it's time for connections when we bring these two films together and talk about all the things they have in common. Well one thing is funny. Hitler's that's probably the strongest connections. ZSA So yes that'd be too Jewish directors making movies About with funny Hitler's but they're obviously funny in different ways so so talk about it. Well there are also funny in kind of the same ways which like very notably. They're both. They're both pretty wishy. They're both pretty effeminate feminine. They're both pretty immature Self absorbed kind of like whiny and self pitying. But at the same time having all of these beliefs of An actual Hitler the combination there of fanaticism and Childishness is meant to be kind of like Indian and Hilarious Maybe a little more so in Joe Rabbit where. He's literally like engaging with a child arguing with a child supporting child teaching child as opposed to an actor portraying him in a an incompetent laughable way but the characterizations to Mir actually Kinda surprisingly similar. Well and they're also they're also both characterizations that are reflective of other characters. More than they are of Hitler. You know. Like the like the Hitler in Joe Joe Rabbit Rabbit is Hitler as Joe has imagined him. Not as Hitler actually is in the Hitler. And it's called. It's springtime for Hitler. Which is what Mel Brooks? I would have preferred to be called. But the Hiller in the producers is you know. LSD's vision such as of Hillary. You know it is neither of them are intended to be their intended is like funhouse mirror portrayal. CNO and I think by divorcing the character from any sort sort of sense of reality. It allows it to engage a tumor in a way that you couldn't if you're actually portraying Adolf Hitler within the narrative that makes sense but it isn't a little weird though. Oh how the Hitler in chose a rabbit does feel a little bit like an independent entity. I mean there. There are times when he is doing actions that are seem apart from whatever role. He's playing in Josiah's life when he's GonNa Swing with other kids jobs not even in the water for example that was one one that kind of stood out but I think that's just like reflective of what Joe thinks he should be doing as a movie Syrian boy. You know it's what Hitler the Hitler in his mind would have him be doing disappointed in him. You know what I mean there's a growing estrangement and a lack of presence The that makes them seem like a separate character or a friend who Giorgio kind of grows apart from these emblematic. He's emblematic of this. You know this collection of propaganda belief system the judge a rabbit pulls away from as he befriends a Jew as he sees his mother die as a result of these policies these beliefs lake. Of course he's going to pull away from the man who is the titular head of the the Reich the representation Haitian of all of the things that happened to him that are bad like of course. He's pulling away from him. Dude you liked to do like take your what Hitler I have a hard time separating him from TYCO Heiko. What's Hedy who I like very very much Just as a personality. He's you know I've seen him live. He's just a very effortlessly funny eh person. He's very charming. He's very charismatic. I've interviewed him. I've obviously watched his movies like just like him a lot. So you stick a silly silly moustache on him And have kind of switch around a little bit. I'm probably going to inherently want to lake him in the way people inherently want to like you know celebrities Veasley. They've made some kind of feeling of connection to. Is it a good portrayal of Hitler I. I don't know what defines a good portrayal of Hitler. It works within the comedy. Because it's it's defending Hitler as an idea it's reducing him and making him Small and ridiculous. I mean I think that charisma you speak of is actually kind of important to playing Hitler you know like I mean for his evil misguided as he was you know he was to some people a charismatic leader. And you know we get that perception in the opening moments of Joe Rabbit with the whole Hitler mania you know I wanna hold your hand scene and and then coupled with the fact that this is supposed to be a Hitler as seen through the eyes of the child and therefore sort of childlike and silly. Td actually make sense to me. You know because he is both charismatic. and kind of silly and so for for the version of Hitler that this movie movie is engaging with I think the the casting in the performance makes a lot of sense I guess he the producer studios every who it was. It was his idea for him to play Hitler he was basically kind of push to do that. Because presumably. No one else would want to do it too in the movie. We couldn't get made but I I I like I like his performance as a I I also am a bit of A. YTD Stan. I I L- I just love him as a person and find him very Like you said charismatic and engaging so it's it's a little hard to separate him here but I think that is sort of the idea you know. I think you're supposed to see why this little boy would become like sort of enamored of this this version of Hitler. uh-huh yeah and and again both films do create this context where you get that that bit of distance we in the producers. It's in the context of of a play. That's being station Asian in this. It's in the context of imagination rather than the real thing so if you can get that you know just just to do a comedy of Hitler being Hitler during World War Two a little harder. We'll more difficult. There's another interesting connection here not too you know you got to stick with Nazi Well this is pushing this at play. genevieve was talking about that a little bit with Sam Rockwell character. Right in in Just the L.. Yeah and the Alfie Allen Character. I think it's it's pretty clear are in some sort of a relationship. As the as the film progresses and as mentioned before the portrayal of Hitler in the producers is what you might call than coupled with some gay panic moments around the the director who is not a Nazi but the film certainly has some some moments of engaging with homosexuality in in a negative light I I would argue. I would say in a cheap comedy light which I'm not disagreeing. We figure I'm just I think more specific. Yeah but I really just this kind of want to take this opportunity. To aunt to unpack the Sam Rockwell Alfie Allen characters a little bit and and the Ark of the Sam Rockwell character character in the context of you know him him being a Nazi soldier. Who has sort of fallen through the ranks you know over the career and I? I think it's interesting interesting in Georgia rabbit to watch that character. Become more flamboyant the closer we get to the end and then in the final L. Moments in his glorious plumage outfit he designed with with Allen by his side riding into battle sort of like not even trying to conceal it anymore. I think there's a sort of poignancy to that it's again maybe a little cheap lear mawkish Lee done but I think there is and effort to to say something there about homosexuality under Nazi regime that there is not an attempt to say anything of substance about I and the producers but the producers does arguably sort of a lightly engaged with that tension I also read Sam Rockwell and Alfie Allen as as a gay couple and I kept wondering if there was a version of either script or or the film editing. That had more Alfie Allen in that had in had more of that relationship because you know alcohol and is not a superstar. But he's at this point. Thanks to game of thrones particular a very recognizable face and and have him in that role when he has maybe a line Just seemed weird. It was perpetually distracting to me to have him on screen but not speaking or doing anything significant really engaging and I kept wondering if there had been more to him and had been cut out for some reason I kept wondering if there had been a version of the story that did play up their relationship a little bit more and made it into more of a kind of a selling point for Sam Rockwell's character given that his this his whole thing seemed to be. He's not he doesn't really believe the things that he's being forced to do anymore. He doesn't if there was a point where he did. He's long past that point. I'm I'm from the beginning. He just comes across as like a little jaded and a little out of it. Not exactly a true believer so the idea that he's also gay and concealing ailing that and kind of like living under look under a cloud. Living under a threat of being sent off to the camps for being gay is a big provocative potential Cilicia in the movie. That just becomes BELVA. Doesn't get wrong unless like Jewishness in the producers. It's just sort of meant to be there for for people who are looking for it for people who are you're kind of in on the the symbolism of it but you know it's twenty nineteen. It's long past the point of like let's very very very quietly hint at this. For the percentage of the population that cares about it And completely cover it up for everybody else like. That's the not really a gay relationships work on the argument I would offer is again that this is a you know. We're seeing this world through. Joe Joe is we're seeing this through the eyes of eleven year old. Who would not you know? He would see certain things but he would not put them together in an explicit way of of what was actually actually happening there so I think you could make the argument that the film is just reflecting what he is seeing allowing viewers who are more savvy than coach out to fill in the blanks in there is some gayness explicit in perhaps not so much in the producers to write and the director and his assistant assistant and Maybe in Hitler himself question Mark Yeah I I have a hard time seeing it in. LSD's portrayal of Hitler. It just feels more like you know you're a Druggie hippie. Teams stereotype divorced from any sexuality. Beyond maybe maybe like free love man but not specifically homosexuality but sort of the the mannerisms I think you can make an argument that that they come through and his mannerisms and that that is again sort of operating on the level of cheap joke you know like Oh oh Jerry dictator guy. He's authentic right. He's a fantasy is hilarious. It's the you you don't need a punchline. It's a man acting sort of womanish that's hilarious. I mean that's that's sort of the mentality of the humor going on there which is why it falls pretty flat. I think thank right but but I think there is also instinct of just like what's the what's the most humiliating portrayal. What what what? What would hit little like the least into if you were around to see it and I think that you know what someone like? LSD In the way he incur carries themselves and certainly his is kind of peace. Nick attitudes and everything kind of fits that bill comically is brought as it is Dick Shawn wasn't Jewish. was he I I I feel like by virtue of YTD being Jewish Hiller would hate it more trail more. Yeah yeah the though. He's he's more committed to to those values the LSD is off. Doing is doing is is own. Think think I don't think there's really a lot of thought is being given to Staying true to the character goes and so we have a couple of powerful powerful characters. Here who instigate the action of both films Tasha. You wanted to talk about that. Yeah I just found it interesting. That both of these kind of revolve around horrible mentors In one case it's an imaginary friend who are urging eleven year old odor rabbit onto fascism and hatred Richard anti-semitism and racism and all sorts of things in the case of the producers. You've got a timid man who would never have considered all of these crimes crimes being urged into them under the pretense of like little like break out of your shell do something exciting with your life. just I just live and that moment I'm always struck by the moment where gene wilder decides to go in on the scheme and the fountain bursts forth behind him of this is that the world world itself is reflecting. Like how wonderful and exciting and thrilling it is. He's agreed to get caught up in this crazy scheme. That is the only we really exists to profit zero muscles character. And in the same way we've got Gioja be kind of like led down the garden path by by Hitler who is is similarly trying to profit like both of these movies center around terrible advice from terrible people who are trying to manipulate smaller and weaker and more innocent characters characters specifically for gain While making pretense of this being lake a larger societal thing that they really should embrace Because if so they're not living up to their full potential And I just I for two very different films really with very different terrible mentors. I think it's it's an. Interestingly Dingley close parallel I think where it notably differs at Joe Joe Rabbit there is a counter mentor figure in in in his mother. You know. So there's a there's a balance for of that cynicism. I guess maybe the you get in the in that relationship in the producers where Leo is just like kind of buys into to maximize his whole thing and you know they end up in prison together and that's the happy ending you know whereas in Georgia Rabbit. It's more of a attention that JOE JOE is trying to figure out between these two like major influences in his life As he again is sort of figuring out what sort of person he's he's going to be and and I think that's where the movie sentimental street kind of you know where where its roots are and again I was pretty positive on the Scarlett Carla Johannesen character in that performance. But I think it is also kind of indicative of where Joe Rabbits more sentimental streak it comes from one aspect to get back to this Topic at hand but what. You mentioned Sculpture Hanson. Her approach to parenthood feels right to me in a way. Like like. There's a sense of like of doting insured and she kind of understood. I think she understands who he who this boy is at his core and that he's going to find his way he's way off right now but he's she's not the type of person person who's going to potentially alienate him by getting upset and also she. She feels like she's protecting him a little bit by not discouraging interest of his. But I think I think to to get back to the the the mentor thing in terms of the men. Ts here. Leo and Joe Joe. There's that allure of power. I mean these are both weak week. People he's a ten year old boy or eleven year old boy in an accountant who can barely get through. You know every waking moment is a panic attack attack for this guy so so to have that promise of of strength from somebody who's who's got who's more persuasive and more powerful I mean. There's there's there's an allure to it's hard for both characters to extricate themselves from it I mean and I think there is a point in the producers. Were Leo does when things go wrong wrong terribly wrong he can kind of say. This is the worst I've ever met you. At least have that record that moment of recognition that he's got this is brought into this awful mess by this really bad guy. I think it's worth noting in the producers. It doesn't seem like we really know enough about Leo to know why he such a shell of a man This is not the kind of film that goes into deep detail about this kind of thing It's that interested in backstory motivations character like these are fairly two dimensional characters stereotypes but in Georgia rabbit a a lot of what a lot of the reason that he's willing to give in to this terrible mentor. Figure is societal pressure. Peer pressure like the sense that everybody around him believes believes in what Hitler has to say. And that like he represents some kind of like ultimate father figure Joe himself as lacking a father figure because his father is gone on. And in that sense like you guys were talking about Scarlett Johansson's character and how she kind of tries to push back and be the the other pole From the terrible mentor. Figure here. I think the sequence where she sort of pretends to be Joe Father and pretends to have that conversation back and forth is just really telling because in her way she's kind of trying to portray another negative influence in his life and then ameliorated she's also in a way that almost seems too sophisticated for this movie is expressing her own disappointment and her own loss in her own anger at her. Lost husband And I just there's so so much packed into that sequence and it's so important in terms of like understanding why Joe believes the things he does and is willing to knuckle under to what basically amounts to a father figure that he's created Out of of pieces of Zeitgeist in his own imagination and his own need need I I just I think. That's a really touching moment but it's also just a really densely richly character packed moment. Where you get to see for a moment just all of the kind of like raging anger and frustration and insecurity and yet like love and nostalgia packed into her character? And and that's where I don't know that I buy the whole idea of this movie being entirely from Georgia's perspective because we're just seeing too much of her. We're seeing too much of what drives her and what she's trying to do and then the sequence where she sits down with Elsa and talks about how she's losing. Joe Joe you know to to Hitler Hitler these beliefs and she hopes she'll get him back but she doesn't. She doesn't know what to do. Like none of that is from Joe Joe's perspective and again at some of the most telling Material the film. I think agree that I don't want to claim that the movie is beginning to end toll only through jobs perspective. I think that that is a argument. You could make to sort of gloss over certain quote unquote flaws in the movie or or explain certain things that maybe don't don't make sense but it's not true throughout the whole movie. That scene does pests Bechtel Test though there you go does it. I wasn't tracking it for that. But aren't they mostly talking about Joe but they also talk a little bit about there's this stuff about her light was riding a horse or something like talking about which puts she'll be able to do or how you become a woman. There is a little talk about what it means to be a woman outside of the Joe of it all it barely passes the backdoor test but yeah. I don't want to spend too much time on packing that but I I have certainly only been privy to some fairly vehement discussions about whether something passes the Bechtel test if two women talk about something other than a man in the same same scene where they are also talking about a man and mostly talking about a man. Like there's there's a lot of debate about exactly where that line is drawn. Well I mostly bring it up as a way to get to our next connection. Connection how producers do Bechtol test wasn't tracking for that but I feel pretty say that does they barely has speaking Female Characters concierge. Now that's true. Yeah that's it. Right is the only one who gets a name name. The concierge is better than a name. Yeah she's I mean there as with all the characters and and the producers for the most part like they're you're kind of joke delivery devices. I character second. You know they don't. It's not really pretty really concerned with backstory beyond the point to which it affects a joke doc you know and it doesn't arguably doesn't need to have that but it doesn't Make for particularly engaging women characters and this spill the kind of unfortunate connection between the female characters in these films really with the kind of primary female characters for whatever that's worth and the producers search is that they're seen primarily as as like objects of ownership by male characters and with WHO led. That's very open and played for humor. Like ha ha. She's a toy that I bought. I can afford to get myself a nice thing. Like a dancing Swedish Bikini Remodel with not much on her mind accept a paid sex but one of the things that bothered me on a fundamental level about Joe Rabbit was the degree to which which Joe Joe and ill says relationship is played as a sort of you know cute Childhood Romance Acute Coming of Age Romance while it's it's also a kind of horrible situation where he's gas lighting. Her repeatedly gasoline her in order to control her in order to control. What information alleges that at the end? Yeah at the end but like nonetheless like his punches him. He's gasoline cleaning. He's played for humor. It's played for adorable Miss. And it's just just as weird as it was for some people to see Hitler played comedic to see a Nazi played for redemption. It was weird to me me to see a gas later controlling a girl Like by basically by repeatedly threatening her life by making up ways in which her our boyfriends that he's never met and doesn't know has failed her and rejected her for humor. It's just it's a very strange source of humor for me in that part just really didn't land very well. Yeah eventually she punches him yeah they they danced together. Yeah there's the moment of forgiveness but I don't know for me it was for me. It was too easy. She comes out into a world where she is not under constant threat of death and realizes that this boy made aid up a constant threat of death in order to try to own her literally to own her. I have a conversation with my husband about this and he was a lot more forgiving of that dynamic hamic because his feeling was joe doesn't necessarily see that as a romantic connection he just doesn't want the last person in his life to go away you know. He's he's lost so much he's just scared of letting go of losing this last connection and looking at it in that late does make it a little more tolerable for me but but the fact that he starts like pretty much the first interaction they have is him low lying about this supposed letter. He's gotten from her boyfriend saying you're ugly and I don't like you anymore. Just makes it really hard for me to take him as a sympathetic character and all this is very young yes. He's very young. I don't want to excuse that relationship ship but I I don't fully agree with the reading that it is played for laughs any more than other parts of this movie. That engaged with difficult things are are are played for laughs. Like I think it's part of the sort of tonal tight rope. This film attempting to walk. I like I said I think it acknowledges riches that what Joe is doing is is horrible and I think it does so while also acknowledging that he is a young boy who has lost a lot a lot and doesn't really know what he's doing and is being influenced by a terrible outside forces and so. I think I can't read need that. gaslight relationship is being played quote unquote played for laughs. I think there are elements of humor in it. There are jokes in it. But it's I don't thing it's an inherently comedic relationship. Now he's struggling. I mean he's. He's struggling to kind of come to terms with this girl that he's been taught to hate and that he can't bring himself self to fully hate US curious. He doesn't a lot of the things that he's learning about. Her defy what he's been told to expect. And so that relationship evolves. I think it'll pretty fairly earnest this way and this way. I don't really see a whole lot of romantic angle here You know I think there's a there's he says he loves her you know but it's in that what little boy way. Sure well with your I kind of older girls sexual but I do think that it's very significant advocate. That basically his first act of connection with her is to try to erase her boyfriend from Islam from her life. True I just I think he sees him as competition you know for for his ownership of her basically. I haven't read the book but I've heard from a number of sources that the book is a lot worse in this regard that he it keeps her in the closet for years lying to our so he can control our and I can't imagine that obviously I can't imagine that playing out particularly well on film since the kids are or at ages where they would change hugely over. The course of those years and presumably does not have access to Gemini man or Irishman level aging technology analogy and. I'm glad he didn't go that far with it but I'm certainly not saying that their relationship has played only for laughs. I'm just saying that Aspects of the gas leading specifically perfect. Leave the letter reading specifically the way he immediately rushes to eraser boyfriend and are pretty hurtful way and the way she kind of takes it with a bureau strange little boy kind of grain of salt. I think all of that is played for humor. Semi related question. Do we believe that. Her boyfriend Israel I believe he's real and he that that he's dead Yeah Okay Yeah I do believe that. That's real pitcher and possibly represents like a a real fantasy for her of a different way way that her life might have turned out that she hoped that her life was going to turn out. But yeah I I guess I took it at face value. When she said that he'd gone away? I guess I missed the picture part art That we saw an actual picture of him isn't the there's a picture of him I. It's been a little while for me. I thought there was a picture of him. Interlock it okay. I may have just been a it makes sense. I don't recall. I recall a lock it. I don't recall what the picture is but that makes sense. I guess that that must have just blown by me. It may be. I was distracted by someone making noise in the or something but percents Jingling crazily. But yes I think I read that as a little ambiguous and maybe sort of defense mechanism on on her part of you know I have a boyfriend. And he's he's waiting for me but that could would just be a complete misreading on my part based on something I missed. I think it's a little defensive but I also think it's just sort of indicative of how different they are. I mean girls mature her a little faster than boys. She's also a little older than him and I think that he's looking at her. and kind of seeing this you know aspirational fantasy of. It's like being the girlfriend of what seems like a an older more sophisticated girl at a couple years older than him whereas she's kind of got the fantasy of being the girlfriend of this older for more sophisticated boy and it's just kind of indicative. How at that age anybody like a few years younger than you has like a kind of glamour about them? You know. It's you're looking at your own future and wanting to be there faster because you think it's going to be more exciting so I you know it. It makes sense to me that there's just kind kind of this little daisy chain of him chasing her not necessarily thinking that he can have her in any meaningful way her chasing this boy who's gone. I mean the whole country is kind of chasing a future. That's not coming. You know chasing a future that they for the most part already know that they've lost and it's kind of like the entire situation. That Germany mini is in at the moment. Yeah I'm assuming we though. We probably don't have much to say about the rich relationship between Lula beyonce. He also shock. You're in bloom so point Joe Joe Rabbit is concerned. They do both kind of a treat. Women like toys to a certain extent if you look at the the whole Elsa thank the proprietary -ness of Of that relationship. Yes I'M GONNA I'm GonNa bad place where saw frozen to today and all I can think of in terms terms of Elsa is let it go. Let her go let her go well. We're going to let these movies go for now The producers is widely available on streaming services. And it's on DVD BLU. Ray Joe Joe. Rabbit is in theaters. Now we'll be right back with your next picture show Finally it's time to catch up on films or film related Items We've seen in the interim since our last podcast we call it your next picture show and the hopes it'll put some interesting choices on your radar genevieve. What in the film world has been good for you lately? Well it's it's not so much lately and I have recommended this movie on the podcast before but it's been a while a I'm GonNa Cheat and recommend it again since it's a movie I thought about again and again while watching Shinjo rabbit and I think in some ways it might have made for an even more interesting pairing with that film than the one we have here. That film is boy a twenty ten coming of age film by one take a TV and the reason I kept thinking about it during Joe Rabbit is not. Just because it's protagonist is a young boy in this case eleven year old boy who has called well boy and not just because by. Td plays the role of shady slash ridiculous character in this case Boys ex-convict absentee father who returns to his life under suspicious circumstances But the real reason I kept thinking about it because of the problematic real life figure who plays a central role in the narrative. One Michael Jackson the film is Sutton Nineteen eighty-four the peak of the thriller era and boy in pretty much. Everyone in his life is obsessed with Jackson including his father in a winds up being something. They're able to bond over after a fashion and now I'm not trying to equate Michael Jackson and Hiller here nor am I claiming the boy attempts to get all revelatory accusations around Jackson and how it's affected our cultures appreciation sheesh of his music. But what I am suggesting. Is that like Joe Joe. Rabbit boy is interested in questions. About how adolescents seek out relate to cultural role models versus parental role models and both films walk and interesting. tonal tight rope. Though I'd say boy lands pretty squarely in the realm of heartwarming at the end. Although I guess maybe rabbit does too depending on. You're on your opinion for what it's worth. Dancing plays a pretty central thematic role in both films as well but yeah I like I like boy a lot. It's very purely what not film it is set in New Zealand and Scott that New Zealand strain of humor. We've been talking about in spades so I definitely want to to to check out. I'd say the one film I think of his I I haven't seen I think I've seen all of his other doctoral efforts and that was I mean it was kind of before the people really were in him so You got you got an early just like just like the album boy. which was their first? So that's the way things start Scott. What about yeah okay so I have been working on this giant Disney plus list for the Times. Be Sort of the keeper of the list and We're GONNA talk about it for a patriotic episode as well so if you're subscriber you can look for that episode too but One of the one of the films that I discovered based on a recommendation from our friend Noel Murray is a documentary. Ish movie called Perry from nine hundred fifty seven that was part the true life adventure series and it's based on a book by feel Sultan who was also responsible for Bambi. And it's kind of this fictional construct that they've built documentary footage around kind of support. And so it's kind of a lot of nonsense but at the same time. It reflects a a view an understanding of nature that I think is unusual and refreshing from what we get. Now I mean I think you watch the Disney nature. Movies is now and we'll certainly get into things like environmental impacts etc.. Perry has moments of just utter terror. You know it's it's about the circle of life but part of it is like they're predators everywhere you know and it's just there's this pecking order and We're following a very vulnerable young female Pine Squirrel in Jackson Hole Wyoming as it was very lovely little forest area neighborhood neighborhood. I guess and You know he's she's under attack and other animals under attack in the film's stages at all as suspenseful as that that Canon at the beginning of the film especially is really kind of dark and scary in and It's it's interesting I think it's it's an exciting approach. Approach to the subject at Fi- I feel like thematically it reflects the sort of circle of life themes that you see in Bambi and it's kind of it's attitude was like. Hey kids you know this is how nature nature is. You know it's kind of it can be kinda rough. Is this a murder involved. But there's also there's also a lot of beauty in mischievous behavior and things that you can identify with as well so I really connected with it and I think it's something that's going to be tucked away in two Disney sie. Plus it's a title that baby people won't notice he count and I think if you are you know Do have the service that I think a lot of people obviously are signing up. It's kind ah lesser-known thing that's worth checking out so Perry P. E. R.. I I'm just I'm suddenly hearing verner Herzog's talk about how the jungle is. We're not that far away. A harmony of overwhelming collective right. The birds are screaming in Nagy Yeah it's it's it's not quite that level but it is. It's a lot of respect for for sure we'll talk. What about you at fantastic fest earlier? This year I saw this movie called. I lost my my body which is an animated French film which is coming to a very very select theaters on November fifteenth Basically hitting New New York in L. A. in advance of an Oscar run for best animated film But it'll be a lot more accessible when it comes to net flicks on November twenty ninth. This is a very strange. In sweet and different. Kind of movie it basically starts with a severed hand in the morgue kind of coming coming to life and setting out on an adventure. It crawls around on its fingertips thing. You're inevitably going to think of thing from the addams family a- and addams family movies of various kinds but we flash back and forth between the hands adventures in trying to get somewhere. It seems seems to be driven to move in a specific direction to to seek out something And in encounters all sorts of terrifying obstacles like rats that want devour it and Cars and I just like barriers to something small and completely defenseless like moving through the world which becomes kind of a metaphor for how people operate in the world trying to get through their everyday life with threats around them but more significantly eh movie continually flashes back to the person that the hand came from This young mixed raced teenager. Who sees a pizza deliveryman He's a little bit aimless He is his folks are dead and he's living with relatives who barely tolerate him. It kind of makes a turning point when he makes a connection a remote connection Through an unorthodox means that I'm not going to spoil with a girl and essentially starts stalking her and seeing her from afar. She's this kind of cool girl in Scott Pilgrim vs the world mode with colorful headphones and Aqui hairstyle and just like a way of carrying herself that he admires and she means a lot to him He means nothing to her and he can't quite figure out how to in in her life and a whole lot of things fall out from there. That are a little bit disturbing and very charming and melancholy and sad this whole movie movie in a way is about loneliness and disconnection and try to find your way in the world but it's told in such an unusual way both because of the the idea of the severed autonomous hand. And because it's so artfully tied into the connection between this. This lost body part in the the Mana China came from. If you go watch the trailer you'll see a lot of just the the way the Director First Time Director Jeremy Clarkson makes a kind of visual poem. Warm out of what. This boy is like was like like when he was gone concentrating on his hand his hand digging into sand at the beach has hand Clinching clenching onto his bike. As he as he rises bike His hand waving in the air as he leans out of a car. It will make you appreciate your own body body in just a a strange low key way just like aware of your your physical extremities in a way that I think is very unusual for are what's essentially a sort of romantic drama thirty of sorts. It's a very unusual film. It's very beautifully animated It's very very sweetly told and it just it completely took me as lake. A sort of mainstream modern urban fairy tale of sorts. I think that's about the best way I'm going to be able to describe it so I lost my body. I on Netflix on November twenty ninth. I'm looking forward to that. I've heard a lot of really good things about got it. That's it for this edition of the next picture. Show our next Perry will come out December every second and ninth genevieve. What's coming up? Next Noah Baumbach new film marriage story is a personal film about the agonizing process of divorce. And how it's designed to bring out the worst this qualities of those involved. Not only does the couple played by Adam. Driver and Scarlett Johansson have to engage in a protracted and expensive legal battle against each other. They also have to deal with the fallout and other aspects of their life including their relationship to their only child that dynamic calls to mind Kramer Versus Kramer and Oscar winning drama starring Meryl Streep and Dustin often that also digs into the ugliness of divorce especially when a child is involved. In the meantime we love to hear your feedback on this week's discussion of the producers Joe Rabbit anything else formulated immolated. You'd like to talk about. We want include your thoughts on future episodes of the show. You leave a short voicemail at seven seven three two three four nine seven three zero or email us at comments. That's at next picture. Show dot net. We may post your response on facebook for discussion or read it on a future episode of the show finally before closing out this week's episode. Where can we find? Find everyone these days genevieve I am the Deputy TV editor at vulture DOT COM. And you can find me on twitter at genevieve Kofsky. Scott you can find me at on twitter at Scott. Scott underscored Tobias You can find me. You know my writing on the New York Times where I've done this huge Disney plus list You'd find me on on vulture. I've done a big ignore Baumbach list if you're is doing marriage story and you can find me in. NPR and and also the editor in chief Oscilloscopes musings blog. Tasha I I am fully underway in my new job as the film. TV editor at Polygon which is the sister site of my previous Website the verge. I'm just getting my feet under me but By the time this hits I should have my first reviews up there. I'm going to be writing as well as running freelancers and At any people in all the stuff I normally do and I'll be talking about all of this and more on my twitter at Tasha Robinson are missing host Keith Phipps. So you can find him on twitter at at K V three thousand He's also use a freelance writer who writes for vulture and for the ringer and four for Pollyanna and for all kinds of other publications. So check that out You can stay updated on the next picture. Show by visiting experts. Show Dot net via twitter at next picture pod and via facebook at facebook dot com slash. Next picture show. You can also contribute to our Patriot and get bonus content at Patriot dot com slash. Next picture show. If you haven't subscribe to the show and Apple podcasts already please consider it apple podcast. Subscriptions at an important part of getting podcasts. More prominence more listeners. And while you're there we appreciate every rating and review. Every thumbs up helps us find new listeners. And keep the show going. And for every thumbs-down we're going to add another rambunctious kitten to the show. Yes so we we we do apologize for the the Jingling in the in the Shenanigans I have a kitten. Kittens are hard to control. Thanks to Dan. The snake Jake's for his assistance producing this podcast. Oh cast the next picture show is proud to be part of the film. Spotting family podcasts. These teams the core the

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