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Roland Garros Re-Lived 1984 The match that haunts McEnroe


Hi I'm John McEnroe. And you're listening to the tennis podcast. Yes the Great John. Mcenroe is the focus for our second installment of Roland Garros relieved after the joys of Yannick Noah. Yesterday poor old John. He did not have the sort of day that you know had twelve months earlier and we've just watched the match. He played in one thousand nine hundred four against Yvonne. Mendel five cents native four hours Catherine matter myself and it was something. Pretty Special Katherine how you feeling having witnessed what you just witnessed. I'm still worried about John. Mcenroe's is he okay. Yeah and we'll go into the the off of that much but you know I think the answer is he's never been as as the would have been feed one that much he's never bidden quite okay again. That's how Saudis make that defeat was for him and the victory was lendl. Yeah Yeah it was. It was quite a matt. You have just senior. I ever full Joe McDermott. She's currents second. I've seen the nineteen eighty Wimbledon final enfold before. But this was the first other than that and yeah I mean I feel like I've I've discovered like a new album that I never knew about from my favorite artist. Kind of what? It feels like when you go back and watch these matches material that I kind of knew existed but it never never watched. Yeah I mean it's just one of the best matches I've ever seen I felt like I had a lot to say about it. And then the then the volleyball match point. Let's move it speech this. I haven't quite over that that the McEnroe botched match point. I'm sure we'll get into it but yeah just just. I'm on a bit of a high really. I feel like we've just come off watching an actual Grand Slam final. That's just minutes ago. Well Yeah I mean. Normally we would be doing our second daily edition of the tennis. Podcast live from Grand Slam reacting. Today's play and we're going into a day's play effectively a grandson. Because that's what we've just witnessed and it really has hitters which we're with spent little but we're going to enjoy reliving it with you here on the tennis podcast. We've also spoken to Mary. Carillo Catherine had crack and chat with her a couple of days ago in which he gave him insight into John McEnroe and the effect that match had on him the sort of impact in the sort of impressions that we wouldn't be able to give ourselves. Mary knew him from way back. And and we'll get onto that a little bit later. She'll give us the full story but just to give you an idea of what the world was like in nineteen eighty four. The first apple Mac went on sale English pound notes were taken out of circulation. Have you ever seen in English pans? Note either I have. They used to be Green Green and white virgin. Atlantic made its inaugural flight. The AIDS virus was identified by a French immunologist. Those are the things that happened in one thousand nine hundred four of night realist. I could give you what happens. Conscious dress it up. Is there going to be a virus related fact for every year Lincoln to present day? Bit of a terrorist isn't it? I sure I can pull it off. But and hopefully because that it's going to be Chev list when people come back in thirty years time looking back on matches from twenty. Two thousand years happened. Look down happened is what happened. Yeah so what about in the tennis world? John McEnroe on the men's side was the overwhelming world number-one Martina Navratilova was the best player in the world on the women's side and McEnroe was midway through one of the greatest seasons. We have ever seen he would win. Eighty two matches and lose just three. He was on a run. A forty two consecutive wins when he came into this friendship and final any went eleven wins and one defeat against the second and third ranked players in the world that year. So that's how how good he was and Matt. I mean that run of forty two consecutive match wins in a row. That's a lot of tournaments that was that's like Jackovitch. Did in two thousand eleven absolutely and I think the only bit to ads is what made him a favorite for this. French Open final against lender that he was winning on clay for Kinda the I. You know he's having really good results on clay for some of the first time in his career and he was dominating even then So part of the matches that made up those forty two. He won titles against In Philadelphia beating Leonard in the final in Brussels beating lendl in the final in forest hills on clay beating lender in the final and then to suit off on clay beating lender in the final say he had the absolute measure of him going into this match and the rivalry between them was was fascinating to watch. Because when you look at it now it was marginally in the favor of lendl throughout the whole career that he had the most wins but when they started McEnroe when the first two lendl and one seven matches and they're talking the country of this match about how landlord got his number and then McEnroe figured it out turned it around one seven out of their next eight and came into this particular match with ten eight advantage. So we'd want seven of the previous eight meetings between the two. The other context to give is even lendl had yet to win a grand slam title. He would go on to win. Eight one more than McEnroe would end up within his career but that time he was coming up short he was really struggling in the big matches and here he was up against the world number. One Guy who got his measure and really there was no feeling from the broadcast that we sort of NBC. Catherine that was a likely to change anytime soon. Oh I mean first of all it was a real pleasure to which the the NBC broadcast if that much so pleased to to find that on on cheap but yeah the the build up to to to the match the NBC coverage was treating it like a coronation like a foregone conclusion it was Tony Trae bits in the crowd. He was the last American to to win Roland Garros. He's here in the crowd because he's he's going to be handing over that mental today to to John McEnroe because John McEnroe doesn't leave tennis matches and even handle doesn't win Grand Slam finals and if story that's what it felt like and and that's what it felt like even more so at two sets to love up. Fif- John McEnroe's his. He's the exhibition tennis for today's took him apart absolutely and it was it was it was potentially too easy. Potentially because you know he he will I mean as the incident with the NBC cameraman. You've to John. Mcenroe senior in the crowd Jones very character full further wearing an NBC. Sports baseball CAP. Which I mentioned wasn't in the mcenery family collection probably after that day because it was an NBC cameraman with whom mcenery took issue with the stole to the third set and apparently and he recalls this In his second autobiography mcenery he says the reason he he lost it with the NBC cameraman Z. Heard the producer down that cameraman's headphones. He claims he heard that producer. A let me find the exact quote when the much is over will focus on John and then stick with him through the trophy ceremony. He's got this so make sure he's in the shot that that is what John McEnroe in his Second Autobiography seriously claims that he heard that that produces in that combined with his friends leaving the match halfway through leaving much of the of the two sets his friend of mud Richard. He said he got up to leave and shouted. You've got this Michael. See you back at the hotel. Nice on the subject of things going on behind the scenes in preparation for the for the title win and the trophy handing over. We've been backstage working behind the scenes at tournaments in the past and I know what that's like you get to. What four three in the say in the second or the third set? When you see the end could be by and you get everybody ready. You get the trophy just behind the doors on the entrance to the court and you hope that you don't catch the eye of one of the players because you don't want them to think they think the match is about to end and I've seen in the past. I Remember Tim. Henman once complaining that he saw a TV crew gathering at the end of a court ready for the end of match and and it put him off a scene. That sort of thing happened many times. But I mean and that's what it felt like when you got himself to six three five one at one stage and it was toying with lendl. Yeah it was the most confident tennis. I've I've ever seen really. I mean he it was like he wasn't even aware there was someone else on the other end of the court. He wasn't thinking about what lendl was going to do. We're worrying about Linda. Lendl was GONNA do. It was his game. It is this good and I'm just GONNA executed. I didn't give two hoots what you're playing down the other end of the core. It was so supremely infectiously confidence but there were there were there were couple of moments of looks in hindsight like foreshadowing in both games where he served out the opening sets he served double-faults and the only double faults that he had hit in. Those opening tea sets that was in really really wobbly for hand or more than Mobley A it was a botched forehand to use Matt's word in the when he was serving out the opening set. Now he did. He did manage to serve out these sets but they would just tiny tells in retrospect of of the pressure and potentially the the mental gymnastics were going on in in John. Mcenroe's mind throughout even the plain sailing poets. If that much so you can only imagine what was going on during the feeling theories. Do you feel a bit silly. Though for being surprised by how good McEnroe walls like? I've always known Makomo was great. He's these multiple Grand Slam champion. Yeah I found myself surprised at how good his tennis was. I think often the often the narrative around Makomo can get a bit reduce. The people can talk about him a took his temper. We'll talk about him being a genius but the actual intricacies of his play is understanding of the call his his so of was bigger than I than I thought it was his of angles. The text the to his game the flow we had the way would have smother opponent in a way that kind of federal does by just letting his game just come out is incredible to watch and I had not sure never fully appreciated that before this an all the way through this match when we were sharing notes on it and we were even asking Mary's thoughts on it because we just could not believe he's GonNa lose this match. You're watching it and it's it's it's six three five one and then he then he wins. That set six teams. So He's two sets to love up and the he has so many chances including getting to two games all in the second having love forty on the lendl second serve and not breaking serve in that particular game lendl and went full to. Mcenroe breaks back but all the time. Mackinaw is the better player. That's how it feels. And he just doesn't convert the the key chances and then really noticeable the way his. I just just deserted him and and that becomes a monologue from McEnroe with the crowd. Doesn't it well or mortar point? We as viewers here. Mcenroe losing his temper. But he's not losing the temple with the line empires is he's having a god himself he calls himself a stupid. Moronic JERK He he misses a backhand by an shit. Four Games all and Jews and he goes got damn you this this just regularly rather much. The jet of Lendl throughout the much is really interesting. Well because it's very responsive to to macaroni. It's really competitive match in the very early stages but lentils in it. He looks like he's playing well and then and then it's clear that mcenery is just playing so well and so confidently that the this this kind of deflation in lend can only see him thinking. Well it kind. It doesn't matter how well they play. Because this guy is just on another planet and then second-set Lendl is as As Bud Collins described He said the guys naked out there without his forehand. Just such a great description. He is four hundred just was completely off the boil and he did look naked. He looks powerless and lost. In the face of this man playing just hypnotic tennis and then my can. Rick gives him a sliver of hope. The Guy Looks Lost and naked. How many times can I say naked in this in this podcast and McEnroe handsome hope on a platter? He shows him. That even is playing brilliant tennis even though lentils four hundred is deserted him. He doubts himself. And you can see Lendl Greg. Your third year you see lendl become wate ended up becoming as a champion this relentless figure who had this huge four hundred not semi great cross-court passing shot four and Z would hit. He hit a slight sort of early. The Dow Banana forehand down the line that he'd he'd got on the run. That was beautiful shot. He got a good backhand passing shot across court particularly but you started to see the that felt like the making give him an interview with him recently when he when he refuted that as being a kind of moment that defined his whole career. He was trying to say well look. Let's let's not forget I was. I was on the brink a lot I was and I just think I would have got there eventually anyway but maybe it might not happen like that. Maybe the scar tissue built as we've seen with certain players and and I mean Matt. He was he was a dominant player. We I think I don't really think I realized how dominant was everywhere else. Other than the slams time yeah he'd won it already thirty nine titles on the tour by this by this point but obviously none of those at the slams which I appreciate it either. I kind of thought that maybe he got to a few slam finals. But almost maybe wasn't ready to win them but he absolutely probably should have one of those first four. It was a good enough player too. I just think was interesting about this match as well is. It's held up as kind of quintessential choke if you like. It's kind of the match. That people will point to is Makomo choking so therefore expected his whole game to disintegrate. And yet as you go further into the match. He's still playing this gorgeous tennis and he looks like the better player throughout the whole match. Just what he doesn't do is take is opportunities and as you said those any any lets himself get distracted by things himself get distracted by the crowd's not turning against him by the cameraman. And as you said that that was just hope for lender and that that was a route back into the match Volendam. He didn't he didn't close McNamara. And that's what's gotTa hurt him because he was such a good from Rana in his career. I I had a quick look. I think he only lost one match two sets up in his whole career. You didn't lose these matches. He was a front runner who allowed his talent to take over matches when he was in control and Swannee. Alexis get away. Even though his tennis doesn't disappear he just doesn't take his chances and that is what does her. We know how much it hurts thin. That's shown by how all the way through where x where even sets four and five within Kinney's. He's not he's going to win. This IS NEAT. Even another result. I'm still I don't I'm thinking. How does he lose it from here? He's the two break points even in the fifth set isn't he? I think it about four games. All those two final sense. The one seven five seven five that gives you an idea of just how stressful it was out there. I mean if if you're watching it as we've just done what is it seventy six years on and it still stressful to watch when you even know the results that tells you just what it must have been like at the time. It was absolutely fantastic match. I I came out of it up. Lifted but fading just devastated for McEnroe. And we'll we'll talk about what that meant to him and and what we know of that after. We've heard from from Mary as well but I think we should hear from from Mary now because nobody knows John McEnroe really any better within ten circles than than she does she. She wanted mixed doubles title with him. In nineteen seventy seven and she knows what it meant to Joe McConnell. John should have against lendl in that incredible match and interestingly I cover the French withdrawn McEnroe every year on NBC. And as much as he likes parents and the event he he admitted to a certain melancholy as he wandered grounds. He knows that that was his chance. And so few American men had won that title. You know it had been a lot. Trabert dated back in the day. But and obviously Michael. Chang wanted at seventeen but John had his look and he choked and he knows he and he wasn't a choker by nature so that one haunted John won the junior. The nine hundred seventy seven. The first year he played at Roland Garros he won. The junior title mean. John was good on everything John would would be. John would have been great playing lunar tenants. If such a thing existed He did and he look the minute. His game was going to work on anything and he again. That was the start of Leno and that was the start. John Elway says my my best rivalry. My greatest rivalry was with Borg. That's not really true. That's his favorite rivalry. It's not his greatest. I mean he had a lot a lot more matches with a lot more people But Lendl beating him changed both of careers. I really feel that way. What are your memories of if that final in eighty four at the time? Oh I mean I just I. Of course I thought he was going to win. There is no doubt in my mind. Lendl had played in major finals and lost all of them and John was really playing. Well his his serve was taking the clay and kicking it out wide and he was doing he was doing well. And then you know. I think anybody who's watched that match could see that each at it started as anger. You know he was a cameraman who I knew that he got angry at and then he just he lost his temper and then he truly lost his way and once he knew that he had gotten some traction in that match he he was just ready to take it over. Leno was a terrific claycourt player because he had pretty long take back and pretty big Swings and the Klay gave him time to hit them John and his whole serve-and-volley crash dashed bumped in and come in. And you know John John New play clay as well but it was an absolute that John have one match FAC against particular opponents. As well I mean then he would. He would try. It's very rare that Johns anger got in the way of his success but on that occasion John Chambers could not could not recover from himself and Lendl took the event when you say that much that results the way it panned out change both careers. What's the what's the sliding doors situation for both for for McEnroe fee had? Let's say you know he'd he'd one in three straight sets Preceded as it had done the first two. What's the ultimate universe? I think I mean John Kerry that loss around for months and I think for Leno. Obviously he started winning majors after that. So that that's the easy explanation for for that change. His career people knew that he wasn't a choker anymore. But I also think Jon Out. I'll tell you this conversation that John had that night with Patrick. They've went out with his younger brother. They went out to have a bunch of Beers after that match and Patrick said to John of the younger brother is going to try to say to an older brother champion. Patrick said don't worry they'll be. They'll be more chances which sounds like a pretty safe sensitive thing to say and John. Looked at Patrick and said no there. Won't that was my chains. That was my chance by. John knew that that was always going to be the hardest one for him doing. Oh I mean the the major one for you US Open. Three Wimbledon say ron faster surfaces. They rewarded his kind of play. Dach- so of course he went on and one more majors but he never got close to winning in Paris again that Melancholia the described that he experiences in Paris at Roland Garros has that has that eased over the is it has because John has sort of become this. Great avuncular character. You know you know what he's like he's he's like as a very different guy from the man who is trying to win majors back in the day but no he will allow he really admit in. Paris and an telly Catherine. I'll bet it's happened just about every single year that we've been there and I've covered perisher decades now where he will say. I still have a problem with this place. And that's something would he? Would he ever use the C word? Choke yeah I think he will now. Yes yes he will he reluctantly he. Sort of chokes. When he says it no no he look he knows. That's that's why I think that conversation with Patrick is so powerful right. Yeah goodness many well and the thing is at you know if you watch John play a lot and so many of his matches he'd he'd flubber Bali you know he'd he'd hit a bad shot and you'd you'd grab his own throat and that to me was such a great release valves for him he would grab it like he would admit to everybody in that stadium and watching on TV that he had just choke that shot. I have you seen him do that. You've seen him. I'm sure if you go through his old videos he'll actually grab but then he recovers from it. You know then the next the next five shots he plays were gorgeous but John was a for dismiss it. He got it out of his system by grabbing his own throat but he could not do that against Yvonne. Lendl impairs what. It really sums it up. Doesn't it to hear Mary? Talk about Joe McConnell in those terms and that those business that he went out forward Patrick McEnroe's that the feeling that on one hand logic should tell you that this is the first of many chances in this guy is absolutely in his prime. He's just one forty two matches in a row. He's finally lost one and look at what he went on to do. He then went to Wimbledon and he absolutely destroyed the failed. He beat Jimmy Connors in a match that I watched live the age of ten years old and even at that age. I knew that I'm watching. Just a genius. A work and somebody who's totally totally dominant in the sport. He lost three matches for the entire year of which that lendl match was one of them he won the US. Open later that summer as well but then it all disappeared really I mean he. What was it he? He reached one further Grand Slam final in his whole career. That was in nine hundred eighty five and it never happened for him again. He had moments. He had special moments that I'll always remember particularly ninety. Two Rich Wimbledon semifinals and one or two others like that but that was it in terms of being the dominant force but I I'm always fascinated as well to to try to work out. How big a deal. This was for him. I mean Mary uses the word haunting which which I find really makes me shudder just to think about it but I wanted to wonder whether although we had good results of the rest career whether whether this kept coming back to him in his in his own autobiography to give you an idea of of just how hard this hit him. This is what John McEnroe wrote. It was the worst loss of my life. The devastating defeat. Sometimes it still keeps me up nights. It's even tougher me now to do the country at the French one two days when literally feel sick to my stomach just being there and thinking about that match thinking of what I threw away and how different my life would have been. If I'd won I was at the top of my game that Spring and my game plan was this. Don't change a thing. Serve come in. A new volley was the best in the business a new. I couldn't lose Peter Fleming. That's his doubles partner. Course was planning a victory party. Even before the match began the day of the match I saw a caricature in a French newspaper. In the picture I was on one side of the net pointing a gun at Lendl who stood in the corner on the other side shivering sweat pouring off him. I loved that picture. The French fans evidently felt the same way. When I was introduced on Center Court at Roland Garros I got the greatest handed ever received at the start of a match a huge raw by the end of the match in my own inimitable way. I'd somehow managed to get the entire crowd against me once again. Visceral isn't he was. He left the court that day booed off by the French fans. The the trophy ceremonies. They held it back then with this incredibly thing that seems to take place. In one of the stands completely chaotic and disorganized they handling the trophy. Well he's just looking like a child. That's had his ice-cream taken away and then they hand McEnroe this plate which he looks like he wants to throw in. Blake's face is not play is a trae isn't it and then they hand Lendl this extremely amateur looking microphone. That does not look like it's going to be able to project anything to crowd of. Eighteen thousand lendl gives a one line of speech which doesn't reference his team. Any thank used is not referenced. Macaroni just says. I'm really happy that I won. I'll be back next year. And then he disappears apparently space to speak but he just marches off. He much is down the steps and into the locker room met with a cacophony if these and then on the NBC brokers there is about eight minutes Bud Collins valiantly trying to hold up a live report clearly woman is is saying. Just just pat out for bit more bud. We trying to locate the players. Say Bud Collins give sort of a potted summary of what he's just seen. The ten is my phone's just washing says I'm hearing reports that even Liz vomiting in the locker room no sightings of John McEnroe's for for some time And he does eventually catch up with lend lend does a quite extraordinary interview with him. Where landless sat in a corridor? I think stymied it looks. It looks like a hostage video. He sat in a corridor. Looking completely. Spent says is very shaky blurry camera with incredibly poor lighting but collins is sort of bending down and obscuring most of lentils face from the short and his first question to me. It was great interviews. First question to him was if on I can never ask you again about how you always lose. Grand Slam finals. And then he asks him later on. Did you stick which matches? Yeah is amazing. Can I say though how how much I enjoyed the commentary but Collins he was alongside Dick Enberg and I loved some of his references? I mean this is a guy. He played sport but not at a professional level even the journalists the Boston Globe for for decades. And he's somebody I came across in in my career. He died three or four years ago but I knew him for about ten years. And always the loveliest person to encounter in the press room really welcoming to two young new people in the room. If either one of you come across him he'd he'd have given you a great welcome. You know made you feel part of it which is such a lovely quality of his but also as as a commentator some of the lines he came up with just happy in hysterics for start but I also thought he was really well. He really read the game. Well you read what was happening. He managed to communicate what was happening. In a way that I think could Any sort of casual tennis sports observer OR SOMEBODY WHO is interested in John? Mcenroe could have switched on and thought. Yeah I get what's going on here. Not just being lectured or ease the line mid commentary that of course. Mcenroe won his first ever Grand Slam title here at Roland Garros when Mary Carillo carried him see mixed doubles. Glory in nineteen seventy seven which is an all time. Great Coventry Line. Mary tells it slightly differently. He he to believe we'll have to see the footage I also enjoyed his is reference to the slice serve out wide e called it the can opener which. I thought was a great way of putting. It enjoyed it. How the there's a a big tradition in America I think for when NBC would cover the French Open and Wimbledon breakfast at Wimbledon and it was always shown at that time the day and he referenced. How his his uncle studly was Enjoying a float which was a big bowl with a croissant tennis and champagne all around and the was to see whether we could finish the class on champagne. I just made it fun. A might experiment with the next full friendship and fortnight. Ain't nothing just pick up on something that you Mary Katherine About. What would be the sliding doors situation if that match on the other way? 'cause I thought McEnroe wrote something interesting. His autobiography as well saying that a French tie to would have given made that final complete thing. I don't now have which is a legitimate claim as possibly the greatest Myopia. Oh time so he was. He was kind of seeing the real big picture. There ope not getting the French kind of was really was really a black mark against his career. You know he was. He was recognizing the fact that you have to win on all surfaces that came out in two thousand and two so just as just the Sampras was retiring and you know he would have had probably fewer slams Sampras but he would have had the French if it got this so it's interesting how. He framed it that way as well into in terms of his place in tennis history was affected by this this one match as well. I do find it. Amazing to think cove a match loss still be an important much by a then five time Grand Slam champion. Who went on to win two more grand slams that year how that lost much can still be described unthought of by the man himself and by and by Marion people that knew him as a career defining match career finding loss. You know I I understand how it was created finding philanderer. He had lost four Grand Slams at that point. Yes he now says. It was any mattress time. But that wouldn't necessarily have been the case. I mean it was probably the lure of diminishing returns at that point where whereas sort of up until the four Grand Slam final losses. You're thinking with each one. It seems a little more likely in the future but then conversely say the baggage and Scott. Tissue building up so I understand the sliding doors thing lendl but to think to think that much in the career circumstance McEnroe at the time being created. Finding is is amazing to me. I was go back to your line about not wanting federal to win necessarily to the nine women and find out. He doesn't need it well. If either player needed it on paper and this finalist lender because he hasn't got any slams but actually you you really get the. That McEnroe needed this as well. You're in this final. You kind of get the sense that both needed it. Which is perhaps what makes it so so tantalizing as a match and that and that conversation that you had with with Mary. And she's relying the discussion that John had with Patrick about how John Sense that that was his time and he wouldn't have another moment this this whole match and that conversation actually put me in mind of last year's men's Wimbledon final with Federal Djokovic. So much of what we've talked about in terms of Makomo being the better player not winning was was also true Federer in terms of Makomo knew that was his last that was his chance and you kind of felt like federal knew that that was his chance. I I think I think there are some parallels there and I think when when people go back and watch the women final there will be having similar conversations to what we're having difference in careers in that kind of thing differences though I federal be over federal. Be Okay with it. That's the difference and McEnroe's says in his autobiography which he wrote in two thousand to eighteen years on from that match. He said he'd never watched it back. He just couldn't couldn't watch it back. And I just wonder whether McEnroe sinks more now about that loss than he does about his great happy moments. I also think it will comes across from from both autobiographies. The segments on eighty four Wimbledon final is that he's trying so hard to to admit that he choked. You know I also Mary would he use the C word and she said yes I think he would now. But he doesn't in in either autobiography But he he really is trying to to to to say it was entirely my fault however the McEnroe ni-nice does does show three. He you know in in the in the segment where he's talking about. This is inaccessible. Second Autobiography and he's talking about his his football. A friend Armored Rishaad the left of way through saying you've got this Mukasey back at the hotel he says Shit. The last thing I needed was the jinx. It's an unwritten rule in sports that friends and family leave until the matches over and then he says not that. I'm blaming of mud for the loss. Which is my favorite sentence ever. I'm not blaming him but I am blaming him. A bit actually you. You do see this. Come out and say if you talked to him about if this comes up in conversation this match. I've always gone pretty well with McEnroe professionally when I've had to deal with him on. The champions tour will got on well and I was found. He was helpful. You know you might make it really hard work. But actually he would he would deliver knee. You know if you degrade something he would delivery. We turn up just about on time. And when he got there he would deliver by. I do remember. I didn't appreciate how much this loss hurt him. One time I interviewed him when Lendl was returning and coming on the champions tour and and I said what's lend like and he said Oh you know his his jokes still as bad as ever. We both laughed and then I said what jokes like ninety four French. Open thinking that that might be something that Lendl might raise in conversation backstage. Mackinaw should've stalled it out. But that irritated him that I brought it up and when we finish the interview told he told me I didn't like that and and we were. We were okay. We we sorted out. I didn't mean to kind of upset. Him that cuts. That's too close to the bone from and I can. I can understand it. I mean it hurts him. I think it just shows that it still hurts. This is why you need tennis. Relive David exe these matches. Well he writes I mean I feel. I'm bursts new learning so much about periods in history tennis history which I knew something offer had a memory from being a Kiddo have read something about or her story but I mean this really does take you back and I'm loving every minute of it one last sliding doors thing that I wonder about this much is it's so it's so on character for or feel someone character based on what we have macaroni for him to be haunted by this much somehow to fit him to potentially fixate on this loss more than any of the the the winds because he's such a complex character perfectionist. I mean his his tennis that we just watched was near perfection in that much if he had won this match would he have found some other much to be keeping him up at night. Still it's kind of chicken and egg. Does he have this kind of character because of that does he? Have these haunted feelings because that ninety nine hundred four French Open final or does that much haunted him because of the kind of character that he is a do think he has the capacity to self-destructs. And I think that you see that with the meltdowns with with the empire and it was like it was at the end of that year that he he ended up having his one of his most famous meltdowns in Stockholm where he worries said the question jerk to the empire and he smashed all of his belongings into smithereens on on the side of the core and he got fined seven thousand five hundred dollars and he was suspended for three weeks at the end of the year and you know and he ended up injuring himself during training while he was suspended. Knee ended up missing the Australian Open. So I I mean he could. He could sometimes start an argument pretty much in an empty room if if it sets him off. But I can't imagine if you've got that title. There would have been a big enough gap in his resume really but that I can't imagine just being completely serene and content with his career and then not being something that keeps him up at night. Maybe needed this. I Dunno I just can't imagine that scenario where when McEnroe just content as you describe as you describe with with federal that the comparison that much ends with the fact that federal will be okay with it. He's a different type of character. I can't imagine even without the eighty four French. Open final mcenery being not the character that doesn't have a match that keeps him up at night but it's impressive. Let it affect his tennis for the rest of that season in. And that's another difference with federal because you know federal mentioned that match the demons he every time federal place he has those the demons lurking from mashes. His law swept joke but makomo seemed to park this match for the season and yet it's haunted him for the rest of his life after he's finished playing as he's written a ballon as we talked about Thankfully I'm really pleased that he ended up becoming a commentator in developing another side to him to kind of have this out that to show the whole other aspects is because we've always found him great to deal with on the hall and watching that match. Yeah we were pulling for him really to to to to get over the line and obviously it wasn't to be but it was absent treat to relive for us and I hope you've enjoyed listening about it as well so to down. We've got another one coming up tomorrow here on tennis. Podcast and it will feature nine hundred eighty five Ronin garage. When Chris Evans Faced Martina Navratilova in the third successive well in the second of three consecutive finals? Those two players would play against each other in shortly. The greatest rivalry sport has ever known. Catherine's got an exclusive interview with. Chrissy that we're going to be playing some of it for you in tomorrow's show. We're going to also have Chris Evert Week just after we've finished the French Open relieved series of podcast and we're going to go really deep into her history as a player and what she meant to the sports and will play the full interview them. But I'll tell you what you're gonNA listen to tomorrow is a treat Catherine Matt. That was a lot of fun. We'll go and and rest up before tomorrow's show hope you've enjoyed it and we'll be back with you tomorrow.

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