Episode 397: Big Trouble in Little China (1986)
Christopher media. Let's make some noise Jack in the pork chop express. And I'm talking to whoever's listening out there. Pretty amazing planet we live on here. And a man and a half to be some kind of bull to think, we're all alone in this universe. There is a hidden world where ancient evil, we some modern mystery. What's going on? Here is some kind of magic the darkest. Magic. They call it little China. Finally, we Joe bring order on chaos. It's where big trouble was waiting for. Jack Burton cool, Jack, pardon me, Jack. They told him to go to hell. One move. And that's just where he's going. Somebody. I don't care who tell me what is going on. You gonna spring us. I have no idea. Many mysteries many unanswerable questions even in a life as short as y'all. Debt the rest in your capable hands. Hey, I'll do my best. It's really. It's going to take crackerjack timing Wang one two three. He may be tracked holding concentration. Jack. Born renting. To go check. Jack Berg he's coming to rescue your summer. They will more guy. Ask for Twentieth Century, Fox presents Kurt Russell in John carpenter's. Big trouble in little China. So on the reflexes. Welcome to the projection booth. I'm your host, Mike wait Jimmy me once again as Mr. Vincenzo tally. Well, Hello bike. Well, Hello bike also back in the booth this week as Mr Tony black born ready for this this week. We're looking at the nineteen eighty six film from director John carpenter big trouble in little China. It's the story of Wang Chee played by Dennis done a restaurant tour whose fiancee Mallon played by Susie pie gets kidnapped by the nefarious forces of David Lowe pan played by James Hong a seemingly innocent old man who is actually the embodiment of the evil spirit of low pan. A demon who needs a woman with green eyes in order to become Caprio again and begin his reign of terror on earth. And there was some other white people involved in the story to will be getting into spoilers galore on this episode. So we haven't seen big trouble in little China do so or forever, hold your peace. So Tony when was the first time, you saw the film, and what did you think this is gonna be very different from what I was last on. Because what did twelve TV was? I think I said, oh, I watched it a few weeks ago. His guests in this case. It was probably when I was a by four or five years old which would be around until nineteen ninety nine night one. So I'm VHS by them, this this is a childhood films may this this is one of the small lexical films that don't need adoring cinema. And since then I've watched it various points over the years, but it just this film preps only to the future for me encapsulates, the nineteen nineties in cinema beach little Tykes me right back to the nineties when a sore of just loved it Edison's shelter CLYDE with a child in the Sal Jack books over the years when I've watched it again a very sports combat to I never ever tire. I love it. Just as much as an adult. I'm watching it few times podcasts. It will always be a fiber of mine. So I've got a long history with it. How about you? I'm dating myself. But I saw it in the theater upon its release in nineteen eighty six and I would have been seventeen years old at the time. I was primed for it. Because I was a big bucket. Rubens I fan and WD Richter who directed banzai wrote big trouble in little China. And of course, that was a huge John carpenter fan, and I went in with high expectations, and then my expectations were blown away because it was even more than I could have hoped for and my friends, and I quoted it endlessly and continue to quote it. God knows how many years later. It definitely makes up as with Tonio of big chunk of my cultural upbringing, and it holds particular fascination for me because big trouble in Bucker banzai and other movies of that period. Like repo, man and return, the Lune dead evil dead. They all felt like they were tuned into the same frequency. They all seem to be like a deacon. -struction of hope mythology in a release smart way in at that time, mentally I was I was really ready for that. Because I had kind of gone through the experience pulp in its straight form. And then this was this kind of postmodern take on it that at the time just seem so fresh in original was probably the reason why it was a complete financial disaster. But that of course, made it even more special. Yes. A big trouble. The really one of my all kind favorite movies, and like a lot of screwball comedies that feel like it's lightning in bottle. And it's very few films have ever if any have ever really accomplished what it has done for whether did end by loves the pieces. So I'm treading very dangerous ground on the because I saw this. Also in theaters probably I think I was about fourteen when this came out, and I didn't get it back. Then I was just like what? Going on. I don't understand what's happening. Like, it was the whole thing that we'll hear later on where people were confused that Kurt Russell was playing the second banana, even though he's kind of build as the top guy. The reason why I chose to describe the plot the way that I did is because really this is wing story and Burton is that second banana, he's the guy who we follow into the story. And he takes us into the story. But he is one of the most confused protagonist ever. There's a great super cut out. There of Jack Burton asking questions of just him. So confused are gone on Wang why they steal your girl. She pretty what is going on Allie. What is it? Raid. What again, exactly? So where is he where from where the hell are we where's this going to get that? What the hell are you? Anyway, what you who him this guy? What is that? Don't tell me. Where's my truck? How? What the hell what the hell is this going to get up? And we are that observer character that he is he's our entree into that world. I was confused when I saw this the first time, and this movie has never really clicked for me. So I'm going to stand on the sidelines a little bit here. And as you guys talk about this because we've got Misao factor going on from both of you guys, both this was an influence where both of you. And for me. It's just like even rewatching it again for the podcast. I'm just like man, this this just doesn't really work for me. So I'm very excited to hear why the the movie works so well for both of you guys as we go through and and describe what's happening. And this doesn't surprise me. Why? Because I think it's one of those films a miss I aged myself what I it actually around. I nine years old. So raise enough I was four or five, but I wasn't old. But it was the same thing to ease one of those films that even now already thinking show. This to someday who was a bag. Well, fi showed this to somebody who's twenty Arriva who didn't grow up in that age near that Aranda quasi night other. They'd really know what to make of it. I think it's really is one of those films that just get whatever reason you don't get the number econ pre it in some why will you come from the junk compensator. Performance things that I think is a lot being said there is a real unique Nisa about this film that a Mexican of as we signed the mom light film, you either love heights it all somewhere in between the box office is that as well. And I should like this because Vincenzo you mentioned the evil dead. And Jack Burton is very much like ash Williams. We'll talk a little bit more about old. Jack Burton the comic book in the second half of the show. But Jack Burton and his swagger that he has and his misplaced security in himself and has manhood, and just you know, how he thinks he is God's gift to everything is very ash, especially ash, and like the medieval that in army of darkness, not necessarily in the first two evil dead film. But he was so cocky in that third movie, then of course, adverse thieves dead, and that's so much. Of what Burton is doing. What what I shouldn't say Burton because we've also got the actress Caperton in here. But that's what Kurt Russell is doing. And I thought it was clever to the way that you know, he was channeling Clint Eastwood when it came to escape from New York. And then he's pretty much channeling John Wayne when it comes to doing big trouble middle China. And he's got that kind of thing that he's doing what his voice to have in the Duke there and doing that. And then also the whole idea of him. We all know that John carpenter is a huge Howard hawks fan and that they're mixing a Howard hawks comedy with the Howard hawks western and then placing Kurt Russell as John Wayne in the middle of this. But really it's like if Ricky Nelson was the hero of Rio. Bravo, more than John Wayne was we see you totally get it might. That's it. That's it. But I think it was it was a hard thing. Certainly at the time. I'm sure that it was Har hard per stream audience to simulate, but it doesn't take much to see the direct line from big trouble in little China to guardians of the galaxy that that peculiar brand of humor that is very culturally specific and culturally self referential wound its way from the kind of outer fringes into the heart of the mainstream twenty years or plus later, but I think parter will make big trouble little shyness. So exciting is that it doesn't really have any quivalent at the time. That was made that there wasn't a large commercial studio American film, that embrace Chinese culture in the way, the big trouble did, and you know, it'd be another fifteen years or so to the matrix, which is felt like the moment when Hong Kong cinema truly penny. Trated the mainstream even though it had been kind of laying around the edges but big troubles. The one that really found a way to kind of marry Easton west successfully in do it at this very high level. Like, it's a you had mentioned repo, man or return the living dead is movies that tone? We seem like they're civil this one, but those are small movies, but big trouble little China was a that was a big Ghostbusters size kind of film. You know, really brave of everyone to take it on. So I think it has like real cultural significance. I the movie had that kind of impact that only was felt many years later in other movies that were if not directly indirectly inspired by what's really funny when you mentioned the evil dead as well, you mentioned on me of dauntless that was ninety three. So it's almost like Jack book may have been using split by the character of ashen as side about. Baby, John Wayne so that the performance, but he the risk Campbell might be too. Big little giants. Look a little bit of Jack souther into that character. I think the sun issue look nags, so many different characters semi films. Tried to catch our think walk cut Russell date in the same, y you know, a lot of films tried to capture what junk competent does with blending kung FU strange sorcery brings into this mysticism, you know, the general action movie comedy and not many of them getting to get it. Right. You not strange concoction. We'd brew comes at little Jonah. Never struck me when I was young to the eighties accommodate, you know, not for some reason, even though it was ninety laugh, and that's one of the things I look about it. You know, John carpenter ascent. It was a comedy I in full most. When you watch when she is with the person you want. And you think could so obvious. That's one of the reasons the Jack isn't the Haber isn't the hero. That's the whole point. Maybe you don't notice the comedy because the film is sophisticated enough. Not to point it out because I watched it just podcast in and it was really struck by how the music doesn't play into the comedy at all. Like, it just lets it doesn't punctuate any of the one liners doesn't punctuate any of that stuff. Just let's be which I think is to the movies credit, but may be confused people because something like Ghostbusters, which also terrific movie highlights the comedy like it pushes the comedy into the foreground in, you know, it's a little more cloying in its desire to make you laugh, whereas big trouble has the sophistication self competence or maybe lack of self awareness. Just let it be. And I know when I was a Peter that's was very appealing like that. The weakness of the fact that it didn't. It felt like it wasn't trying to appeal to everybody was what made us think. It was cool was partly what made it feel like something that was special the only we could perceive. What was funny in it? And we were pretentious. That made it appealing. They're just some weird moments in hair like well when Gracie law shows up, and I'm like, okay, Gracie law. That sounds like it's supposed to be an Asian name. She grew up in Asia. I don't know if she's a mixed background. I don't know what her relationship is with anything when she shows up. I know we get a little bit more in the screenplay as far as like her bad thing. She's like the daughter of some missionaries or something and she's trying to look out for young women who come over to the country and protect them. But it's just a strange care. She's she's a strange character. And then the reporter character that Caperton place. It's like who is this woman. She just shows up out of nowhere. And there's nothing going on. You know to explain who she is. I'm just like what's happening. So again, I feel as confused as Jack burden because I'm just like who is person what is their relationship to this. What's going on in very much? I'm I'm joining this adventure already in progress, which I kind of appr-. But at the same time from a filmmaking point of view, I'm just like this is kind of weird. I I've never experienced this kind of thing before slowdown feel a little like an outsider. If those a little bit like, maybe the famous characters Safai in terms of the white written in they even prosecute travel because she's she was my light light IT's building on crush years Cottrell trial. Can control can't control Kim Cottrell Cottrell Cottrell, Kim, Kim, Kim Cottrell you've never made a bad film. What the hell ring my bell? Let's go to the Dell relationship. We'll Joe I like your smell your really swell. I'm Chilton Histon for contest. I love you kid. I liked your dress at the ace awards. Try. Actress when she gets really good material, and she did really well base because I don't think gracie's ticketing while written at new think Mago cutting taxes, particularly well, not not that. That's that's the journalists. Marcos attornal. Yeah. Not button characters patinkin well-written that really a lot every day. Full exposition will for specific reason, you get you get to the point with rice little questioning whether a background days, obviously like to run in the movie when she's captured by pan, she's might all in a very Chinese stigma. Why I e it's strange. But then, you know, she says she's a lawyer. So, you know, Gracie mole is he on the nose is. I think it's a very w Richter thing, I think that he their tropes just tropes, and there's no attempt or desire to make them more than that. I mean, they're they're subverting the trope in so much Gracie is like Princess Leia. She's very independent tough talking woman. But the end of the day she's going to being a prisoner to death star in this going to have to be saved. And that's where the pulp lie, and that's what this is going to be don't think it's this is a boys movie in its it has its roots been Republic serials in that kind of thing unfree. That's just what the girls did in those movies. The differences aiding using cited stop the Princess liar analogy in 'em pushed or expect she falls so hanso reciprocates whereas in this. She full she ends up falling Jack she tried to. Jack. And he's e- Jaksa the end. Right. I'm God leaving I'm gonna back my truck that that that's different 'cause you'd expect like cases at one point in the habitable smooching, the lift to hit leaves it with lipstick, which is wonderful, touch, you you'd expect in a conventional film, you'd expect the final saints then kissing, you know, something other. He's no not that's one of the things bad. They seem doesn't always go down the path. You think he will die? You're not obviously, you know, that that tracks Jack is a character the white through in that sense. I liked that. But yeah, I agree. I don't know Gracie is that from which more than. Yeah. It's it's a very w d Richter kind of joke that is almost identical beaten up refund site where at the end of the upper kisses penny Priddy, and then you cut to the aliens when they say so what big deal at the same of. You know, it's a little bit of fuck you to the audience is actually really funny because it's the expectation. What's almost like Gracie is she and mal yen are the same person in there just split into two. So that we can have eleven trysts for both weighing and for Jack, even though he rejects Jack rejects at the end, which is very much like a western, you know, that's very like Shane gets on his horse and rides off jackets on the pork chop express. And he's out of San Francisco, and maybe he'll come back someday. Maybe he won't you never know, ma'am. And he's going to tip his hat and drive off into the sunset. So poor malathion. I mean poor Suzy pie. I mean, she wasn't the greatest actress in the world senior and other things. But and so it was kind of clever to keep her pretty much mute through the entire movie. But my God she has nothing to do. She is just that Princess to be rescued. So I do pre. Sheet that Gracie and Margot 'cause they it's almost like all three women are just aspects of the same woman. And at one point I think all of them are captured in different places. So it's like it's constant rescue rescue rescue of these women, and I forget like going back and rewatching this for the podcast. I remember when they go into the underworld that the David Lowe pain world, I forgot that they get out and then the comeback in with reinforcements later on. I just remember them going in there and that being the entire movie. So when I watch this again, and I see so much of the stuff, and I see those three gangsters who are kidnapping the women at the beginning of the movie or can napping meal yen. It's just like, wow. Where did this stuff come from? I completely blocked it out of my head. When they go down, and I wouldn't make reinforcements going down into the the the we had sue underneath like some Francisco, and they attacked by that great months thing that comes out of the the cave and ex-shin size. He won't be back anymore with another that jet goes what what will be back with more. More. Expedited. Why how big is there? What it is those little things that just go to compete Nabet again, it's like the watermelon in the vice in Bucker bonsai what they're all tell you later. It's very specific sense of humor. I even now I've curious I don't think it will ever cut through to ever with obviously Mike bully connect with you. It's it's it's very quirky kind of sense of humor. I think the other thing that surprised me is in a match matches trying to pick on this movie. 'cause I'm enjoying hearing. What you guys have to say about this. So I'm not just here to shit on this film because I enjoy it at the end of the day. But I'm not as connected to it as you guys are. 'cause there there were they strange moments like the moment where they have the big fight in the alleyway. And our main two guys are just sitting in the truck the whole time. And I'm just like, okay. This is strange like I kept waiting for them to get out of the truck and. And join in the fight, you know, like who's the good guys who's the bad guys? The guys in the yellow or the good guys and the guys in red or the bad guys. And of course, the guys in red are the bad guys because alley young is one of the guys in red. And I I always love seeing him show up and stuff, and they just have this huge fight. But our main two guys are just sitting in the truck the whole time. I just like this is a really interesting choice to do this. You know, the in any other film. I would think I keep trying to think of like, you know, Hong Kong films that might have core corollaries to this. Like, I can't think of Jackie Chan sitting by on the sidelines being a reluctant hero, or I guess they just don't want to get involved. But it's like I've never seen anything like this before. So I guess Bravo. But it's still such a strange choice to do. I'm sure remember hearing that Joan cop into one eighty two not to be the good guys knew the bad guys flights until then the lighting's would remind shovel. And then he's pretty clear, and I think he just. Wanted to throw you to the sense of confusion that Jack has sitting there. And he's tro guy, what the hell is all this. You know, that that's something that follows obviously through the whole fill that missing on just mentioned what Jack's saying what the hell is that most that whole comes thing that he's just completely baffled. Although I through what's going on when extensively people would have shown up. And I think he they about his cut roseland John carpenter in that amazing tiny Coventry track which I recommend. Anyone goes MRs to exceed fem testing is son which fun cut Russell's laugh is just the best. They talk about how they want that wanted that that sense of complete bafflement, although older whiter. They the film with Jack not going on that traditional journey. And I think that that Sade as old by usually not sense of confusion. So even though Jack isn't gonna involved what you think Russell as the lead, that's entirely the point. But it is. Strange because nobody elite character in this one. Who's the hero of the pace Rigby in the middle of it? I guess is different sensor talking about this. We should just talk about the direction because I find this movie to be on a John carpenter's best directed films, like it's a really beautifully crafted piece of filmmaking and design. Photograph light in Kenedy, really sharply cut. The editing is amazing. Of the visual effects, hold up, Greg ably. Well, there's just certain things innovated to this day. Astound don't really know how they did him especially without the benefit of CGI said a Nazi in particulars. It's I mean, I guess that's you know, a western action seeing the John carpenter never got to shoot in an actual western is. But it's a really fine. We executed in choreograph piece of action yet everything in this movie looks terrific. I love the sets. I love when they go into Chinatown, and it becomes that amazing set and the way that they go underground. And that is just has that wonderful, look, and I love the the big finale of the film with the escalator and the the neon light. And everything is just again, this kind of real incongruence stuff that works. Really, well, and it has. A beautiful beautiful look, and I think that that James Hong as low pan just I love the look of him the look of the outfit everything that he's doing great. And I love thunder lightning and rain, and I was really glad I felt very vindicated last night. I was reading the book about the making of big trouble in little China. And I had always thought that watching the lone wolf and cub films, the three brothers who are assassins in the second film, where there in the first film, if you're watching shogun assassin that they were very much an inspiration for thunder lightning and rain and sure enough carpenter was like, oh, yeah. I love that movie. In those hats, definitely right there from Gomel Cobb. So I was very happy to hear that. And those three guys what great looks at. They have especially thunder is one of my favorite characters. And he just looks so bad ass. I mean Carter Wong is just amazing to watch. To the Hong Kong place. Yes. Yes. He was released. According to that commentary, which that commentary to double up on what you were saying that commentary is fantastic, especially when they completely break out of watching the movie and just start talking about their kids. Yeah, they spend. So just go up and tensions is wonderful. But, but yeah, he he he had that that background thing that might a genuine kind of butter, and you know, you brings that into the into that intensity that he's got a thunder. And they will do they really scared me as a kid. I would just really strange powers would just bizarre. Even though that on the face, really hilarious at messy hats. So you look the head or he's sort of level of what the hell of I books yet that greedy. Wait, wait. Why phil? It's really walks align. But it I think this kind of thing could be culturally deeply offensive, but it never straight for me. Anyway, as a white male of the worst person to comment on this. But I feel that the way to protest theology is with tremendous intense interest in yet, it doesn't shy away from the absurdity of it either. And like, those hats are both fantastic and ridiculous. Ed in the kind of funny in kind of cool that aesthetic is infused in the whole like you're saying the Chinese demon that's at lined in neon. It's very exotic fascinating in kind of absurd. The same time that character that the call the wild man or he gets the name Pete later on in the comic books that kind of eight man looking character. Like where does he come from? And you would think he would be not the main Batty, but the main, you know, man, at at arm's kind of thing, but Lapan Scott, both thunder, lightning and rain and that guy as well. Plus all of the kung FU guys that is using to battle everybody. So it's just he seems so unstoppable because he's got so many powers, and so many amazing allies in this fight. I love low pan low pines, he's one of the best things about still jibes Hong east so goods what amazes me. When I watch Lopez is the he's both, greedy quite scary as villain. I'm really powerful. And you believe he he's Janu a genuine threat. Signs on the film spends the entire movie taking the Raisa oven. Favorite line, which is when that wind wonderfully earnest all the way through you know, he's saying Jack. But this is the legend, Jack, this is what happens Jack, jugs, all whatever it's what he says is sending about high whim load time, you know, the story of having needs of green on bride. A Jack says what two thousand years he can't by what brought the fit the Bill. That hoping he just kept on day in the way, causing diabled weizer of ready seen a film that manages type of villain who can both be left up on equally terrified you signed tone. Nothing giants home these performance really Niles that love Heintz vet into fine line. But I think he manages it. When he tells Jack burnt just shut up. I'm just like that's great because Jack Burton never shuts up at any point. And as his mouth is constantly getting him into trouble that amazing scene where he goes, quote, unquote, undercover looking at the brothel for the green eyed girl, and I love Kurt Russell in that used cars jacket that he's got. Plus, I think he borrowed Robin Williams glasses. These got those amazing glasses and tons of guy line going on. And he just he plays a nerd, so. Well in that even though weighing is a great lead Dennis done. Really does a great job of that Kurt Russell, his charisma goes on for miles. And even when he's playing this. Kind of unlikable kind of a jerk character, I'm still there. One hundred percent four him because I just love Kurt Russell. And he can do no wrong for me in this felt. It's a really courageous into taken that part, you know, such as some version of what a classic Hollywood male action hero is of you don't see that. Even now, I can't really recall many examples of anyone playing that kind of role, especially somebody who was was all of those things in other movies for him to to Lampre himself in that way in a big movie like that high profile movie was I think preventatively courageous showed a lot of willingness to laugh at himself in just partly why he so charming, and I think he works really well with Dennis who plays Lang, that's the real story of the movie, and I think they really good parents great. It is a great buddy movie, and I like Dennis done a lot keesa supercross Matic and on again. Unexpected in the choices he makes the things that he does for all of its quirkiness the tremendous amount of emotion humanity. Particularly shared between those two characters yet seen them at the beginning when they're playing what pike owl that interaction between the two of them were there kind of rivals, but you can tell that there's more going on. And it's going to reveal that they have a history together. That's one of those really nice moments set us up at the beginning to say these guys have a history there is a respect here. So it doesn't make it weird that Jack as long for the ride because he wants to be there with Wang. He is a good friend, even though he's kind of saying like, oh, yeah. I'll drive to the airport because I don't trust you with my money. I think he would have gone along with him to the airport, regardless as a friend of a friend outweighs they have that relationship that he's on the face of could be these doesn't. I don't think that's one of the reasons I think it's a good Paul cut really doesn't say. Well, why Jackie's character is because you right? He does go on these Jenny even though he's the ultimate reluctant hero. I did want to get back to my truck. You know this. Thing. That's not quite true in the end. He is he's invested. He just wanna help. He just wanna help. Get back Mariana wanna help whack the great thing about it. Is he walks in that thinking, he's the, you know, the cockatiel. Woah, but he's the hero. And he's gonna cyber everyone. And then he shoots go on plastic on he said, that's that's the beauty of the cards. And that's why he will so well at usual, but that is one of the reasons whites cut Russell's performance, east e- spot-on on. Yeah. It's because he doesn't do what you think in following up on what you said before earlier Vicente is that when that plaster falls on his head. We don't get the warmth formed for par on the soundtrack. It just keeps playing. Factly an equally it happens twice in the same scene. Then he knifes that card who ends up falling on top of in these trapped is dead body for the rest of the flights a real. I think action this is dependent. It's so sharp and clever. Funny in at that time, just wasn't something that you saw at that budget level of stream Hollywood movie was really all the flying wire work, or but trampoline work that's done is attack yard dwell on this stroz one guy after another. I think it's surprising and really a great endorsement of John carpenter is like a truly versatile director that you could do common. So well, other than darkstar which is kind of a student films and is pretty rough around the edges you'd never done anything like this before. I mean, it was other than baby satire anything harder to do than screwball comedy to make it work. The history of cinema is littered with. Failed screwball comedies. And he completely pulled it off the timing. This movie is so spot on that opening seeing the bottle breaking it doesn't break that's the master class in introducing characters and setting up states. There's so much information that breezily delayed. See appears just recently delivered off the cuff yet all really essential and perfectly executed. It's not what you would expect from the guy who directed Halloween. John carpenter as personally years became plays bitter because he realized how good he knows how good he is. And all I think he felt like he deserved more credit. And and he really did one of the things I really liked on that commentary to was talking about and John carpenter talking about where their careers were at at the moment. And we didn't episode on the thing, I guess it was two years ago now and the thing that. Surprises. A lot of people when I brought it up then. And and and when people bring it up now is to realize just what flop the thing was in that people hated that movie when it came out, and so it wasn't like Kurt. Russell was coming off of a big hit. He was taking a chance in this role. Like, you had said, you know, it's not a typical action hero role and carpenter was kind of taking a chance to have him in this film. Because after the thing it's not like he was burning up the screen. You know, swing shift was really kind of a doomed production, you know, Jonathan Demme famously got the movie taken away from him and re cut and what came out no one was really happy with wasn't like the mean season or the best of times was again, a huge box office and sation. So it's not like this was Kurt Russell who was the number one box office draw all times, but still the man has an ego. He's got something to protect and John carpenter pudding. This. Guy who isn't and he's not box office poison. But he's not, you know, seen as being this strong presence at this time putting him in this movie was kind of a risk for him and carpenter. You know, I love that. He talks about how you know. He had to do his mea culpa after the thing by doing Christine and then doing star, man. And just be like, yeah. Listen, I can be good. Boy, I can do these movies. And then immediately which I love around does big triple little China, which is a super risky movie. And yeah, it did not pay off at the time. But I love that people. Now, you know, people back then and people now embrace this movie. And that it just kind of has snowball just like the thing has no balled over all these years. And yeah, I completely agree with you in Chen's does that it's like he was always a few years if not a few decades ahead of his time. So it's like, you know, maybe eventually we'll look back, and I doubt it, but maybe eventually we'll look back and be like. Wow. Memoirs of an invisible, man. What? Amazing movie what it is one of the nice things about being alive for so long is in I can look back, and I experienced that history real time. And I was there when the floppies though, I loved it. And as you say, it was more than that failure was reviled. Even by the water's important car cinema Fantastique, but famous ruled poodle review that I believe John carpenter was wounded by in whereas other movies, you know, were celebrated in if you look at curious to know, what was nominated for best picture nineteen eighty six, but I'm willing to bet very few of those films would have the staying power this couple little China. Does culturally is just over that long period of time. It's fascinating to see what rises to the circus. And and so often the movies that are discussed constantly and referred to constant rate. Were absolute failures at the time and John harp. Ter- really when you think about his career like he had an amazing run right up until memoirs of an invisible, man. Let's see if I can all those in order, but darkstar assault on precinct thirteen Halloween escape from New York. The thing. Christine Starman big trouble hundred fog that has to be like one of the best runs of any filmaker at any time. And the really sad part of it is that oh, of course, in Africa, trouble, Princip artisan, and they live and they live. It was a movie that is of course, more relevant now than ever put political climate. But this constantly like books have been written about that Phil that is unbelievable one. And I'm sure John carpenter just best endlessly frustrated that a lot of our number of the homes were not recognized for what they were the time in really ended his clear like after big trouble. He he only harsh budget film. He made was have been invisible man, I believe and he intentionally took too low-budget after trouble. Which is I think very strategically clever thing for him to do, but they were just that smart movies. And and it's never recovered recovered after big trouble Knepper kind of almost the end of the line for him. But your head is laid age. He must be enjoying the fact that he really has become one of the most relevant filmmakers of that period. Hugh, others are. Spoke of is often with such fondest is as as he is one of the things that always interested me about the movie is the use of dissolves. There's a lot of dissolves that are happening between different scenes, especially when they go back into lo PAN's domain, and I've always wondered if that's where they were trimming, or if that was just a way of saying, you know, time is passing and it's taking a long time for us to make this journey into the underworld because I've seen other films where it's like a while all of these dissolves really feel like they're omitting things. And I went back, and I I read the screenplay and their couple things here. And there that aren't in the final film like a line here line there. There's like one little bit towards the end with the what do they call them? The lords of lords of death those one little bit with them where they get their come up at the end. But it made Jack look like he was a little bit of vindictive guy. I would've been fine with it. But whatever lightning himself. The third elemental guy. He seems to be kind of missing through this. We get a lot of thunder a lot of rain I've seen thunder, and I've seen rain, but I don't see a lot of lightning in this one. So I always wondered like if there's a little bit more of his character that wasn't necessarily there. But once they hit into that like the second time that go to David lo PAN's place. Like, I said before that's where the movie kind of starts from me. And that's where I really start to get involved in this film. And I love how you never know. What's going to be around that corner that next corner? If there's going to be that wild man, the the creature that tax them or that crazy. The I guardian which seems like he's, you know, right out of the D monster manual, and I love that creature. I think he looks amazing. And I love when he comes back the second time, and he's kind of licking his wounds. I it's just so awesome. I would really like to know how they made that thing is the nominee. I saw a picture, and it was like they had all. All of these services hooked up to them from just like directly from the back. And we're manipulating all those is independently all the stuff and they had two versions of I guess one was the front version was the back version, and they said, and I don't know if screaming George were directly on this. But he was part of the effects crew sounded like they had a ton of different effects crews working on this. And when I read screaming George was involved. I was just like that totally seems like something he would have come up with this is a compliment. It looks like digital it looks animated because it's so well articulated, and it's still expressive. I think one of the hardest things to do is make a puppet like that move slowly in the way, it kind of it's mouth opens and closes fairy organic slow movement. It's really, and when it chaper shoots at new, spins and flies away. I don't know. I don't know how they did that I it was motion control or something. But it's really a compare that to slime from Ghostbusters. And you know, slammer looks like a muppet. This thing is so much better at the same year. I think was his nineteen Eighty-four. That's right. I remember all those big celebrations that were happening in two thousand fourteen about anniversaries, but there weren't a lot of big trouble little China anniversaries in two thousand sixteen which is kind of a shame. It's too mature by coke curiosity film into why ready stills that amazing. It's I think he's one of those that I think it's one of those films that people if they're big fun of it. And I always have been they they love it. They. I know the lines they could restart the whole thing from they remember all of it. I think if if there's a lot of people probably have caught bits of it on TV at various points of the is unsigned dramatically big from China out. Let's not one is cut Russell's in it up. We'd like kung FU guys, we'd lightning civil service might maybe might be I've seen that. So I think it's one of those that people have vague knowledge jobs, but only true on hob- fans stick with another body. That's one I think that it hasn't quite said the fact that data that took in about we rebuilt in the franchise. I think also the fat sees that. It was a one off. You know, it wasn't luck at Ghostbusters that had a safe, quote on end has been expectation over the years has been comic books been this kind of thing. I think big trouble is had as much of that over the is that continuing the franchise pail, so exciting people's memory. So it still coal to why. I think that would have been quite to celebrations going on companies. But it does have a continued cult following in. There are comic books games. And there's certainly a lot of love for to this day. But it I don't think it it was never a Ghostbusters massive success with it cannot, you know, as was back to future. I think those films were just always easily consumable in a way, the big trouble never will be which is why it's so special like thick things that prevented it from breaking out are the things that we love it for Moore's been doing with the other kind of franchises. I think is well, you know, they've they've coin to be able to leave on transcendent. Whereas while you look after the comic books have been done things that after the fat. Big trouble hasn't swiped had that lounge Jedi in public. I I think that's that's what what it is. Which is what you site. I think it is the fact that he quote. Quantified in the same. What you kinda ghosted? So you kinda that's the future will not sign that they would films. They're actually not that there. Little bit easier to to sit you hit around than the strange brew trouble. Which is funny the same. When you talk about people hunting ghosts and people travelling in time are easier concepts. But I totally agree. I couldn't vote on which which is about the future is obviously hugely complicated in many ways. It's time people stand Tom travel ban to stand ghost hunting. Do they understand weighed come food so ceres from ancient China and like a truck driver? It's it's interesting is different. Big trouble. I can't help link it to buck rebound side there the whole mechanism this base on absurdity like the whole narrative mechanism is based on ABS absurd concepts. And and that's why just can't it'll never be accepted in a way that people like future will. It's just even though I think there there are similarities Neil, canton, certainly Mark can't. Yeah. I think narc Mark Neil, canton, produce back to the future. You'll can't produce buck rube onside and was partnered with w Richter. So you know, we're talking about a small group of people that were all circulating with each other. But those the W T Victor these dirt consciously aggressively stepped away from the mainstream. They were they were really bold like they were very punk rock in their mentality in their unwilling. This to be acceptable on a large scale, which is again why I think they have deep influence. I'm just interested in how cultural movements effect each other. And I feel like it may be this is just because of my own personal experience growing up. But I feel like he wouldn't have big trouble mill China, if you didn't have raiders of the lost ark that on some level. Big trouble is kind of like the next cultural evolutionary step because raiders is really be. No recreation a modern at that time. Anyway, a modern high-tech recreation of the old Republic serials mixed with a little bit of Casablanca, multi fall. Can it's pretty straight up in the way that it entertains its audience it's not trying to do something different than those movies. Did the whereas big trouble feel like is taking that Indiana Jones character in turning it on its head. And and you know, all the imperialist fantasies of. Of invading another culture in cell on that raiders taps into our subverted in big trouble in little China. Had you know, the American is a fool, and the exotic coroner is the hero in a delivers a continuum at work that because I personally grew up in that continuum really effected me, and it seems to me like that was going on in a in a lot of movies that at that time that it was in the rate seventies early eighties. There was a revival of an attempt to revive the thrills of old Hollywood cinema in invite Honey got that kind of war at word stay like, you know, Star Wars and so on head their day and all the indicators had day that kind of boring, and then there was this other wave of movies that took those tropes. And then try to twist them in mash them up into different way. And then you got movies like repo man returning. Later on maybe things like men in black and then. Guards you'll in appeals to me like big trouble has played in important role in that movement pulled up. Yeah. I was just gonna say that Lino completely agree about many black. That's that's will most unique step will still. So it's the blend in the nineties a lot with when they look back on bait movie science fiction. Then you've things that independence average a very decent film. But many black book, certainly many black is a big debt to trinity China. So yeah, that sort of continues on with that city revival thing. And I think in a way the the city goes was back the future big trouble conduct group in fills that cluster in that I think they also of the time as well in many ways, I think if you somebody said to can you can you three movies that typify the nineteen nineties and has sitting bolt was the cinema cinema that with peels to the the massive many wise, even that big trouble business for that kind of that kind of big ball. Bold bright crazy moving. Woodside those setbacks future Woodside big trouble as so of the decade, and yet at the science on cooling back to will these different styles of old Hollywood in these stories, but I really think that they all you need to not sense on the the existing adults Dunston, you might be trouble in China in the seventies or the nineties all the not he's on. It would have been the Phil. I always saw an stuns fidora as being a nod Indiana Jones. I don't know if that's right or not. But I was when he shows up he seems very stylishly dressed than he quickly gets rid of that. Thank goodness. Because I think I don't know if I would have been able to take his fidora through the entire thing. I like his flight seat at the end the is flight, suits, pretty awesome. Yeah. You're talking about subverting expectations. I mean, we could sit here and rewrite the entire end of this film and say what Shhh. Should have happened. As far as you know, who fight who who dies when you know, you get rid of the three baddies, you get rid of, you know, Pete the eight-man character. You get rid of those guys I and then you get rid of low pan. But again, they turn it on its head, you know, low pan the way that he dies and the way that it is. So completely Unser ammonia 's as far as him throwing that knife back at Burton and Burton just getting right between the eyes with that knife. It's all in the reflexes. I mean that is not the way that this movie should have ended, you know that. But it's perfect for this movie. But that doesn't happen in films and the way that thunder is still there afterwards and his weird death where he just blows himself up. You know, again it works for this is defying expectations every single time. It's not like that typical video game ending that we get in most of the movies today where you battle this Batty. Battle this bat, and you're working your way up from Boston Boston Boston till you get to the big boss at the end. And you know that how that battles going to go. And we've heard at the beginning of the film that somebody has this crazy ability. But again, we don't we don't know that Jack and flip knifelike that that's completely, you know, something that really comes in handy at the end there. But it's not like, you know, my father gave me this when I was two years old. And now, I'm going to be able to use it at the end of the film because it's actually a charmed amulet that we've heard about through, you know, EKG mentioned that some mystic warrior will come along at some point yadda, yadda, yadda. It's great. I love that. They don't do any of that horse shit. That ends the way that it ends that we again like you were saying earlier he doesn't get the girl that he decides get back on the truck and he rolls outta town. And he's the same guy at the end that he was that the beginning doing the exact same thing rolling out talking on that CB radio and. And then we get that. Nice little moment of Pete showing his face behind the truck, and we don't ever need a sequel to that. But it was a nice way to end it. But I think you're you're really happing into something. Because you know, he this movie defies a lot of the rules of writing screenplay, and it's overly complicated. I mean, you really can't I still don't know what's going on really. I don't understand that the policy. I really don't. And I really don't care. I think that's part of the fun of it is that it is over Kabul at sort of the point is like wonderland, which is referenced in the movie, it's it's impossible to understand, it's overly complicated. That's that's China. The contradiction of China, and that's what's so fun. It the other movie suddenly sprang to mind that was made around. It's not it came. Was Brazil, which is also a kind of pastiche in overly complicated. Take on the nineteen eighty four raving world type story. I mean in-intentionally so in that is kind of a point like it's not trying to engage you with its plot. It's trying to engage you with all the dressing in the frills in things that are around the edges of the plot. These movies are really they were very bold. They were really they were doing things that are for boating. You know, in a Hollywood film, especially that time in the middle of these Hollywood movies were becoming really a rigid in predictable the way, they they were plotted and these were completely busting perpetually were actively aggressively fighting against it. And I know is the kid that I was at that point. It was seventeen or whatever. But in my teens, I was. Culturally aware enough that that was very exciting. The two I was very aware that the filmmakers were doing something that they weren't supposed to do. And that's what was so much about it, but any EMI films after that, it's absolutely true ninety films after that, then stop doing some of these full my breaking things some of the great ones day things like putting them on stir at the at the end, you know, that that could be that could be a post credit sequence. Now debts, you know. It's that close stinger ending web. Oh, the story is gonna carry on. But yet you don't have to see that somebody feels before this another one being the did. But very few days. Very few had that you know, noise, cheeky, wink, ending of the story carries on. And I think that's great. I eat the the full map breaking things that have been spotted a law films that didn't necessarily do as well as the triple thought, you know, what we can we can do this. Now, we can we can tweak some of those conventions softens a lost even even if it's not direct. I think a lot of stuff is a debt this film while I think one film what one good idea for him. He would to be, you know, take an African American private eye and have him investigate missing children. And then it actually ends up being this long held prophecy where they need this child will call them something special like the golden child where he then has to investigate this whole thing. And he always. Wise talking guy from the streets and really doesn't give a fuck about anybody. And we can even give James Hong and put him in this as well. So I think that sounds like actually Victor Wong. N James Hong both of those. I've never I've never seen the golden child. I saw that at the theater for that makes this did. You thought I was crazy. That was the biggest thing. And I can I haven't heard anyone say those words in probably twenty years. We did smile so talking about Michael Ritchie and thinking about his career in where he was in the seventies. And it was like whatever happened. Michael Ritchie is like, oh, yeah. The golden and how is it going good? I still remember one part of it. Which is when he comes in Eddie Murphy comes in and he's looking for the Syria Mon ceremonial knife. We have come to us for the sacred cross dive, John t what reason for the golden child. He does not need it to say his life child is for our sakes. Not for his own. I humbly beg you how. Tossed have the ni-. He asked. I. Eddie mask and. One. That's the only thing. I remember from that entire movie. There was definitely I think in the wake of Star Wars Indiana Jones was like this real attempt to gun. Get in kind of old Hollywood adventure lives that there was a real revival at that moment forgot about the child would be one of those coming out just six months after big trouble in little China. I mean what a piss her, right? All right, guys. We're gonna take a break and play a pair of interviews. The first with big trouble scripts who've reviser saying king and the second is with screenwriter w d Richter, and we'll be back with both of those rate after these messages. Do you like movies? Of course, you do. You're listening to Mike White's phenomenal podcast the projection. I'm here. However to tell you about another movie loving podcast, the Shannon picture show. My name is Michael vice and the show was created by myself, and my good buddy filmmaking. Nick Richards, twenty six away for him. And I stay connected and to keep movies in our lives. Premise is simple. Each of us. Composed a list of shame filled with movies. We I've missed had no interest in or just feel the other one should have seen. We've covered a wide range of films. Heather's the godfather the exorcist your the hunter from the future phantom, tollbooth ace Salou of amazing vinegar syndrome titles and some that are not so good. Plus, our massive rocky episode that features new interview with Lloyd Kaufman himself, talking about his friendship with John g Abbas, and I personally can't wait for you to hear us enjoying the fight to keep film culture alive. You can find are shown tuned Google play. Stitcher radio. And of course, some crowding. I'm Dave hunt. And I'm one of the co hosts for super true stories podcast two guys suffer through and report back on some of the worst documentaries. You can stream for free. Going. The other co host film is a beautiful lie that teaches us about who we are on the inside, David. I look at the documentaries. The ugliest truths. Teach you about mixed martial arts and fishing poorly faked. Go stories and everything you wanted to know about poor production values in stock footage. Check us out on itunes, Google play or super true, stories dot com. In nineteen eighty-five a curious phenomenon occurred the twilight zone returned to television, featuring all new tales of mystery and imagination from the minds of Ray Bradbury Harlan. Ellison George are Martin and Stephen King dreams for sale the twilight zone, eighty five podcast looks back at that land of shadow in substance and reexamines the groundbreaking successor to rod sterling legacy. Featuring new interviews with the show's creators cast dreams for sale can be found on I tunes at twilight zone, eighty five dot com. Dreams for sale. We'll be waiting for you in the twilight zone. This is Andrew from we hate movies. And you're listening to the projection boost if you feel like laughing after listening to some serious film discussion, and I'm over in our shed WHM podcasts dot com every Tuesday new episode drops us ragging on bad movies. Whereas the good folks here at the projection, but if they're talking about kid hardy cinema related stuff go here for the cinema. Come to us for the last afterwards, we ate movies every Tuesday. Can you tell me how you got involved with big trouble in little China? Then I got hired. The interesting thing was that, you know, the he and Larry asked me to do it. But also the head of production of the time. Jean levy. I also worked for twice. So I had a big track record with him. You know? So it really wasn't that difficult. I had a pretty solid reputation in the industry. I done the long riders and fief with gene it wasn't like a big debate. Or wasn't being brought in as the known. We talked a little bit about the nuts and bolts of script supervision last time in the one thing. I didn't ask that. I wanted us. This time is when you get brought onto a project as the script supervisor at what point in the production. Is that like where are they with things when you come into it, and how long do you stay on the project? It all depends on the production company this studio, and and the director how much they want you to do ahead. There's a traditional two week prep window for breaking down the page count. And. And that kind of thing on the script in familiarizing yourself with it. So that you know, the day and night breaks. And the you've got notes for yourself on on what's going to come up, and you met with the director and know where he wants you to really focus to keep him in line because there's so much being thrown at the director of the whole time that you're kind of a backup brain for him for his continuity, not just in the literal matching the scene, but in the matching of the movement the tone in that in that because you're not generally having a lecturer shooting continuity, getting your ducks in a row for helping facilitate that then there's this other aspect of timing the script how long you think it's running before it's ever shot. Generally. That's the job of the script supervisor though, sometimes they've had someone in production someone else or they've hired another script supervisor to do that. So that depends on whether they're putting your own way ahead or not. And also it depends on whether they want you on during rehearsals. So that your timing rehearsals? You're getting familiar with the actors that kind of stuff or you're also taking notes on the rewrites and really varies on what the director wants from you. So was your experience on big trouble? When they bring you in for that one. He knew I can't even remember I well, I was on early on because by that time I was part of the team. So I was around for all of the prep in all of the, you know around whether building sets and. Everything those sets. They are still so amazing to look at John Lloyd, he was just handing his absolutely astounding. I mean, you know, he was also the production design around the saying, and you know, he really had this master designer aesthetic and master of allusion and force perspective. And everything was just gorgeous, you know, the grand arcade. And the the can't remember what the hall was called with all the Buddhist lined up and all the different held, John. John Lloyd was was pretty much unmatched for for visual master, just looking at that making of book that was put out I think last year. Oh, yeah. Tara's book that force perspective of Jek burden in the wheelchair. And I'm looking at it. And I know that as force perspective that is not a ramp. And I'm still having to. Wrap my mind around that. Yeah. That was pretty tricky. And pretty that was kind of a Disneyland e ticket to watch Kurt go down that and teeter over the will. Yeah. Headed already been cast when you brought up I think, it was all already in mind. No. I mean, I remember when Joel was deciding to do it. No. It hasn't been it had been cast. I remember all the casting and all the all the sessions of different martial art is coming in from all around the world that was fun. It's such an interesting mix of different martial artists. And than even hearing some of the background of some of the guys that worked on it. I can't remember if it was thunder lightning rain, but one of them was a male model. And I was like, oh, yeah. I can totally understand that we're all martial arts. I have been James packs with model he might have been the Davor all really gapped martial artists. Peter Kwong was a great sword fighter. Carter Wong was a grand master from Hong Kong, but we had guys from all around the world. I think we had something like three grand masters in a bunch of master. And they were all throughout like in the joint alley fight where the two gangs and counter each other dad had masters all the way through even the extras. So it was it was a lot of fun to work on because you got to see all the really great people. And then of course, that was where we I met Jeff Amata, you know, he was part of Bruce Lee and Guinea sonata was in there. These were all just real luminaries in that world. On a cell like the rest of the cast was who've been too much of a slouch either. I mean got James Hong he's been around forever. I know I know I personally think he probably was amber that I'd I'd worked on hint worked with him men from the TV show ninety five. So I knew him, you know, from other not so imperious rolls the chemistry in those Kurt Russell John carpenter films. I love all of them. But those in particular just they sing to me. They're pretty undeniable. There's a great level of trust between curtain John and Kurt will go way out on a limb. John's got the net under even just playing that type of character is it's so unusual. And I think for me when I first saw the film. I was so confused as a as a kid watching this just like wise the hero talking all the time. And so ineffectual. The fun of it. He needed it. Yeah. He's great. He's a complete loser buffoon. I can see other actors just not even wanting to touch that role who no guts, no glory with a lot of changes to the film as it was being made not that. I recall every time you make a change after you've said things out the cost money smart. People figure out the changes ahead of shoot. That's where he rehearsal time comes in. That's where you know, pre production is a really important time. That's where you work the kinks out. You don't wanna work it out when you've got a hundred or two hundred thousand dollars a day being spent with a crew standing around dance, not a smart or cost effective. Gesture he utilized that pre production kind of make those changes. I know there were a lot of rehearsals, especially on stuff like the thing or they're a bunch of hertzel's for this one as well has agriculture were because there's a huge amount of choreography. Do you have any favorite memories of working on that one? Really? I just think overall dynamics overall come rotary, you know, is our second time out with. No, actually, it was her first time out with Victor in and Dennis done. And then we use them again and prince of darkness coming into that whole family into that whole culture. It was it was it was fun. And they, you know, there'd be big Chinese Bank with put on on the back side of the stage. We had to Chinese associated producers who would you know, constantly be double checking all the sign in Chinese all the, you know, what should be happening, which should be can't knees because you know, it's the new world, and it wouldn't be Mandarin. The same interesting debates between the mainland Chinese that were working on the show and that and the Chinese Americans working on the show, and they can't knees. And it, you know, there was just all that stuff. Swirly? Around it, which made it really fun. And then the old Chinese guys who'd be trying to sneak in a ton of swearing bigger. I wound up learning a whole lot of old Chinese insults where they greet each other regularly with horrible profanity's, which I would have to stop them from from Saint each other because then we would wind up in big trouble in the Chinese community. They were really slide about it. So I would have there were a couple of the summit who would come by me going. No, this is what Victor just said to. It would go go on like that. And Victor was the worst of sliding them in. He would just try and say incredibly, vile things, but all the old guys would Dade Dade nod and smile, and then come out with this Chinese stuff. And and and evidently someone silo behind goes, you know, what he just said oh, come on. It got I had like four or five phrases that I knew were these traditional greetings that old Chinese guys would say to each of. But they were really profane. If you okay, guys, I caught that these days, you know, even Sanderson was getting into trouble with the isle of dogs for quote, unquote, cultural appropriation. I imagine there had been a backlash about this film. There were two trains a lot. It was it was this major motion picture with three hundred Chinese employed in non stereotype roles, and and we had Chinese on the production crew and Chinese stunt coordinators, and China, you know, we had people from all over the world, and we were really conscientious in going off of real Chinese myths real I mean, most of the mythology, and it was really hard to back to a lot of the old Chinese martial arts movies that had all kinds of mysticism and flying flaming swords and all kinds of things we gotta. Attacked by APPA and a couple of groups, but a whole group of our Chinese actors, we'd go up against them and support us, you know, it was a mixed bag. Yeah. You know, we got demonstrate against by people really didn't know how came together. And because it was a big target and a big studio. I think it was regretful APPA demonstrating against big trouble little China with three hundred Chinese in it, and then gave us an award for prince of darkness with three Chinese if you wanted to take that as a rule of thumb, you know, dumb people within say great. I only need to put Catherine Chinese actors in the future that would be a stupid reaction. I mean, you can't you can't bended and do the wrong thing. You're would it did for us was we wound up being immersed in a fascinating complex culture with some really really great artists. Molar in the world for us at Wieden things. We met a bunch of actors we then used. And reused. So the end result was was great and positive. And I think a lot of people got a lot more exposure and became mainstream actors on other shows a lot of men get out got up to stunt coordinators on other things. Beyond that you'd you'd just roll it. Why do you think that it alternately wasn't a successful movie at the time it came out because we started under a Larry Gordon was prisoners studio, and he left the studio in the middle of our shooting and very Dillard took over and whenever that happened as stupid as it is the new regime never want to success out of the old regime, and frankly, they had a pretty racist attitude. They were issue sit in a movie that they didn't understand didn't see the value in and didn't understand how to promote three hundred Chinese actors. They didn't want as the famous. Mr. dealer said he didn't wanna see one foot and chain cone that poster. And it was you know, only three white people the movie manage to insult everybody. And was in general, just a jerk. All you can do is make the best movie you can. And I think what we've proven is that movie stands the test of time. When you see that coming down, the track that, you all you do have faith that you made a great movie, and you could entertain people you can't fight the regime that doesn't want to promote that movie and doesn't care about that. The great joy, we have is that throughout the years it found its audience and is listed by a lot of people's favorite. John carpenter film. Did you know pretty quickly that it was finding its audience or did it take a while before you said like people have now discovered this movie? I dunno. You kinda don't look back. You just go on to the next thing. It's the kind of thing where where you kind of get surprised that people keep talking about people that get too obsessed with their box office or their awards or how things do aren't going to be very happy. You know, you you really it's doing work that matters. You know beyond that. I don't know what you do. It's it's just gratifying. People enjoyed it. Check has gone on to of pretty long life, especially in the comic books. Have you ever read old man, Jack, that's the one that John an Anthony Burchett been writing? And that one's who. That's what I was going to ask was how much involvement John's had in these comics. So that's great to know. He's been involved in in Jack Burton wins in particularly in the old man Jack one because I know he's a comic book fan. I know you're a comic book fan, and I know that you're right there behind striking productions, but those aren't storm king are those those are non no those are with boom because boom boom is partnered with FOX and they licensed big trouble. But because Ross Richie at boom in I are friends. He had a pretty immediate line. Joan that worked out pretty well to what are you working on these days at at storm king? Will it storm king? We're up. Two four comics. Now, we just this year launched the tales of science fiction, and that's been going really, well, we compromise between the ongoing series asylum, which was, you know, ongoing characters ongoing story, and then we had tales from Holloway night, which comes out every year in October, which is in Thala, she of all different horror stories by all different writers and artists including John myself and decided that there should be science fiction comics. So it's in between it's a series of mini series. That comes out monthly one story may last anywhere from three issues to aid issues, and those are all by different writers Nour's, those have been going really nicely. We're just wrapping up vortex to the second in this series. And we're about ready start standoff by David scowl, David J scout. It's pretty cool alien spaceship crashes into. High security prison. I mean, what could be wrong, you know? They've all pretty well rocked. We've got stories for the next three years going on that dance fun. And then we've been developing TV shows over at UC, and yes, we've got about four those coming up. They haven't announced them yet. So we're kind of okay looks like we've got to features about to go in elsewhere. Yes. So we're busy. Yeah. Storm kings alive. And well, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate this. Let's great talking to you. And yeah, hopefully, we do it again when these days, and hopefully your shows and your new films are very successful. We're going to be storm king will be down at San Diego Comecon this year. So they'll be plenty of comic books, including our first augmented reality, cover sits in screamed at you. I don't know if I wanna see that actually. Dan in San Diego. The that wants to John Kerpen comic experience. Come in. Check out the comet. What spurred your interest in movies going to movies seeing him on television as a kid? I grew up. I guess you'd say in the late fifties. You know, started to go off on my own to movie theaters in our hometown. There were five of them. Even though it was a small town, and I kind of got addicted to horror films and scifi films. It was a pretty rich era. You know, I've been thinking about what I actually was exposed to because I suspected that it might be relevant here. And some of these, you know, were were circulated through theaters of cycling probably better way to describe it others wound up on television at the time. But things like the day the earth that still in the thing from another world. I mean, I saw Donovan's brain. And actually, the house of wax Vincent Price in it. It did it was nineteen fifty three scared. The daylights out Amana actually left us here. I have a memory of that actually walking out of the theater and terror. Halfway through the movie. So I mean, but you like that you know, you like to be that affected by film. This is an era in that period from mid to late fifties, Godzilla and them and actually invasion of the body's natural and fifty six and the fly, and and then the hammer horror films came through and then the William castle stuff, and I just just sucked all that up. I loved it one thing to be a movie fan. But it's another thing to actually go to school for it. What made you decide like this is going to be my career was a halfway through college that I came upon the concept of film schools because up until that point I might try to be a writer of some kind maybe a teacher, but didn't even see possible way to wind up in California. When I was on the east coast studying, but then we have some film courses in college and. They were, you know, theory, not production courses, but that made me aware of graduate schools existing around the country, and it was NYU and UCLA and USC that seemed to be top tier at that time. So I thought it would be credibly interesting. If there were a with study this, you know, you're in a study mode, anyway, and actually stay inside and academe democ world and Caesar's anything of production sort that you could actually study. That's not really the word, but experience my wife, and I when we got married right after college, and I had gotten into several of those places, but we decided we didn't wanna go into New York City, and she got a teaching position in Los Angeles. So we just drove out there and checked out both USC and UCLA. And I can't remember why we chose USC. But I did. And that's where I want. How did you come to? Right slither in film school. You know, took a lot. Production classes and few writing classes, but I always liked to write when I got out of film school. I got this little scholarship to go. To Warner Brothers on a work study program. It was USC scholarship, and you kind of got to pick where you want to work in the studio and see if there was any executive in that department who would be willing to have you sort of as an intern. I wanted to get into screenwriting. So I wound up in, you know, with the executives who were doing development and not only got to sit in on meetings and people were pitching scripts, but they had leaned out there industry, unionized script analysts department and was a foolish move. Because of the cost cutting move left the executives with the first I ask of reading all the scripts that came in. So this guy I was interning force at what would you like to reach grips and give me summaries of them by the why not and so. I read film, much material two or three scripts a day and try to reduce both to like a plot. Synopsis, and it'd be a paragraph of comment that I I got a feeling of what was out there with the good stuff and the bad stuff was like a almost like an alternate universe of literature because I'd been studying, you know, English literature in college. And how suddenly I'm just seeing this massive stuff that most people will never see because most scripts never get beyond the script stage. And I thought well if these guys can do it and some succeed and some fail. I'll write my own scripts, and I wrote slither on my lunch hours on the waters lot in between all the other little responsibilities that this kind of morpheus scholarship gave to me. And then with the document my teacher from USC showed it to his agents. 'cause I it was it was possibly a master's thesis. It was a big thing. You could do creative thesis if you wanted and he showed it to his agents and were. Were young agents opening up young agency, and they signed me, and I stayed with them for my entire career at luck. There's so much luck involved. I mean, if you think about it, and as I do now having passed through it all I don't know how well it's not logical. What happens to you know, enormously talented people get left by the wayside, and it's just a strange business, and I read right that there was a TV movie of slither the following year. That sliver came out was a pilot that was shot. Daryl Duke, the Canadian director. He did pay day. He was a pretty good director. I wrote a pilot and he directed it. It didn't go anywhere. I don't think it was particularly good. And I don't know if it was ever seen anywhere. Certainly wasn't. You know, didn't go to series. There wasn't a second episode. So unless they were gumming pilots on the air that time for people to see I don't think it got any why today anywhere. Barry bus would play the role the lead. I don't know if it exists. Anywhere. I mean, these things pop-ups up now it's worth continuing to look for now. And then you never know. How did you come to peoper one of the producers that my agents expose me too early on was Winkler? I did a couple of films for him. But he gave me that book because he just optioned, and I guess it wasn't a writing assignment. I guess he actually had a place that studio. And in fact, I was offered it because I was young inexpensive writer, and this was no big deal book, and or winning I got along and he respected my writing. And so suddenly again, that's a complete fluke opportunity. You know, you meet somebody who has a book that he thinks is right for you. And you wind up getting an offer could he's not happen. It was very strange time. I mean films, you know, you didn't have to make monster. I mean, gigantic big budget movies. It was an odd kind of in-between period when he will emerging into the new world films. But we haven't yet established that. It was gonna be driven by blockbuster's. So you had opportunities here. And there, you know, they just came your way because it wasn't a big risk involved for the studios, and they were making a lot of velopment deals. So imagine this was your first time adapting book for the screen. I think it was I know I adapted. This paperback, call of Karen, Duncan island for some producer probably on spec. That may have preceded it, you know, it never got made. But that was also that feeling then among producers that if you've got a young writer, and you had any kind of cloud as a producer, the writer would leap an opportunity. It was true to do spec adaptations because then they would be carried around by producer, even if the book hadn't been placed anywhere yet. And so there were a lot of things like that going on at that time. I'm always curious when it comes to add up tation as far as I've got two questions. One is how did you approach that project, and then to is as you've gone through an adept at other? Things throughout the years is your approach generally the same or do you come to each one? As a new way of here's what have to solve this problem. Certainly everyone is different. I mean, every every book is different length, and you're trying to bring it down to approximately the same length screenplay. But I guess I start by first of all reading material to see if I feel if I like it, and I start scribbling I used to just begin, you know, underline dialogue that amused me. Or I thought was important and move my way through the book and try to keep in your head. And I'm early on in the process figuring out whether I'm distilling this into a feature length or it's still too long. You don't really know came out of of some screenwriting course at USC with this initial method of tack that was kind of silly. When in retrospect, but the every movie has about twenty five scenes each scene is approximately three pages long or four-page. Ios, but never really more than five. And I can't remember the exact number of cards. But if you multiply that you came up with a screenplay somewhere between one hundred and five hundred twenty five pages, which is what everybody sort of expecting them to be. And so when I was even conceiving original screenplays early on. I would had this note card technique, which just three by five cards and try to crudely walk my way through the structure of the movie and make sure that I could fill those cards and picture each one being approximately the right number of pages. And then when I would start to write initially, I would actually a bulletin board with some tacked up and try to do a car to day. And if you do that a script written really quickly, but it doesn't mean that it's a good script. And at some point this is apart from adaptation, this is I'm talking a little bit more about an original piece. I decided to just forgo the cards completely and 'cause written enough scripts in my own head that I thought I can kind of win. N- this with a general sense of where might be going. But that make the writing an adventure. It makes you not know what's coming next. If you don't have a car, you're looking at that, you're gonna write tomorrow. So you have to listen to what's happening the characters turning into where the narrative suggests that might go and just after enough time doing that you you kind of get control of that process. And I think you take yourself to the movie in a way when you're writing it, you don't know what's going to happen next. It's like the audience shouldn't. So I started doing that for the rest of of my writing career. But if it's an adaptation, you do have to have a little more rigorous approach. I mean when it didn't need full things it was like a six hundred page book in body snatchers is a much shorter novel. And so was dead fall. Keith lower named that book that turned into deeper, you know, so they're they're different every time. And a lot of them will throw wonderful dialogue at you. And sometimes writer isn't really, you know, I think it would be great. To adapt and Elmore Leonard because he's done a lot of your work for you. But a lot of them, you know, you you end up writing most of the dialogue because there's nothing in the book that's working for that purpose. So it's different for everyone. And I imagine every writer has a different approach or many, many different approaches them, and a group of writers you ask this question. What did I write that you write longhand rather than typing everything? Yeah. I can't. Well, I changed when computers came in. But I broke my collarbone in high school and missed the one semester where they typing. And I thought I've said this before it's a pretty flipping thing to say, but no big deal. What am I gonna need to type for? So I'm one finger typist when I first started writing, I could write longhand faster. I had a couple of women especially one toward the end who did all of my typing for me. And she's, you know, laying I fed extra stuff, and I found that when it came back typed. I could be much more objective about it because I'd never seen it in type form, and I was able to at it myself. I think more effectively than if I had it and then looked at the same thing. I just typed. So I did that for for the longest time, and she got old and she passed away and computers were coming in at the same time. So I switched over. And then you know, you it's even though I'm still typing with one finger. It's incredibly seductive and productive to be able to move stuff around. What I finally sent her after a while would be these literally staple changes on top of stuff that she says. Let me and then she would be building this puffy manuscript on her desk because I saw once when I was out. It was frightening because you know, you have arrows going to the margin. And and and many times you say, I think I could make this better. But what a pain it would be for surely if she had to actually retype this whole page because I cut sentence and a half out or added some dialogue. So so I actually didn't do things that I felt I should do because I the process. Was in the way in the mechanical process was in the way. So once I started using a computer, I've never stopped. And I think it's it's helped me enormously. It's freed me I'll pick and move stuff around and reject it and change it without feeling like I'm burning Shirley. I guess it's nice to the idea of writing something sending it to surely and having that period of time where you can move on to other things where aren't being faced with it. It's like that whole like putting the manuscript in the drawer and forgetting about it for a few months. Well, I would do a partial version of that. Because I certainly didn't accumulate the whole script. And then send a tour. I would send her ten fifteen page that time, but you're right that leave here FedEx you have to do and to come back FedEx. So I was well past it in the script, and I had I thought fairly fresh. I want package with finally arrive. And I read it and end up marking all over it. But it was you know, all the marks. That made before for I sent it to our even on the original pages weren't in my I I'm looking at him. So I thought oh, this is almost like somebody else's manuscript. I mean, that's exaggerating. But still it was a different experience and it helped me. And honestly, I think they more critical. You're talking about those times where you would write without the cards and to yourself to the movies as you said, it what were some of those times where you would just surprise yourself and go didn't see that coming all throughout big trouble. You know, there was a structure there. You're right in your your remembrance that it was at the gaslight there in San Francisco was essentially, a western urban western I mean, a cowboy came in, and, but he came into the city and his horse was stolen. I think was the premise, but the events didn't work once I said, and they like the idea let's move it to a contemporary environment. And I you know, I had elevators all sorts of things that weren't there in the original because period. Didn't have them. And so I just decided that I'm going to not wing it in the sense of. I don't care where this goes because it was the Simon and people are paying me money and expecting a, you know, a functioning screenplay that could be hopefully shot, but I never really did know exactly what was going to happen. I would be reading stuff about, you know, certain kinds of rituals or customs or weapons things they believe in and try to come up with a scene that actually was a movie scene that spun off of that miraculously fit into what had happened the day before. And in the script, it was real joy. Right. And and and you know, when you doing it, and it's working, and sometimes it doesn't it's the greatest kick. Because you think something's talking to me? You know, this movie is pouring out of my fingers. I'm not quite in control of it. Which is what I think the audience should feel like especially in that movie where anything could happen because all the rules of normal reality been suspended. So let's see if I can get to the end that way. And I I pretty much did it in one ferocious best while Shirley was typing behind me though. So I did get to look at what I did. But I never fortunately never wrote myself into a corner. I couldn't get out of because Jack was always there to somehow leap out of it. You know, great blind that Howard Hughes to say to me. I can't remember where he got up with one giant leap, Jack with free the old serial notion that you can somehow make this thing work if you just persevere and keep at it. Because there is that feel of Univer know what's going to be behind that door when you open it. I think when I see clips from it when when he says pulls the door open just wall to wall enemy on the other side, and he slams it into something. I don't know. I think we're trapped or something like that. I mean, I remember that I didn't know what was behind that door until he opened it because I might have been at a point where I was gonna you know, have him open it and step into a tunnel. And then fall to the floor. I mean that was the sort of feeling I had when I was writing it things just seem. To be there when I needed him. That's a great feeling. It just doesn't happen. All the time going back a little bit before that what was it like working with Peter Bogdanovich on Nickelodeon those one off experience. How do I describe this Irwin Winkler? Again, would throw ideas out at me. And he said I'd like to make a movie about the silent era in Hollywood. Would you be interested? And I well, I mean, I'm not this interested. But what do you have in mind? And he said, I have nothing in mind other than I think it was a pretty wild and Willey time, and obviously with the beginning of a an art form and entertainment form, you know, sort of part of the fabric of life now. And I said, well, let me do some research. I mean when when exactly in the silent era, and he didn't really care. And so I went a little bit deeper than Nickelodeon of forward and still in the file and era. But I wrote a script called Starlight parade that I I can't remember a lot. Of the details of it after all these years, but it moved more into the studio system. I was on the cusp of sound coming in and that script or when so to Twentieth Century Fox for at that time, a very nice amount of money. So it got some publicity in variety or report herbal. They hadn't decided they liked the script, but they hadn't made any moves yet with for production. And all of a sudden, we got a call or Irwin that I guess from Peter Donovan saying, I am also I think the suit members called forum. I also am developing a film on the silent era. And I think this might be a conflict with yours where you know. What's what state what what's going on? And could I read it and Irwin sound scripted out of its like the script? But he did not want to do something that I'm just say ten years beyond the beginning of the true beginning of the movies. He was working on something more. That was a sorely on the people had to figure out what it was. They were doing even and he has to be can meet me. And I remember he he was cutting oh at long last love the sound stage. I mean, he was actually a scoring it. And this other was into the evening, and I was supposed to go and meet him, and Frank Marshall was a friend of mine, and he turned out to be the guy who was working for Peter. And he met me and took me into the room and introduced me to Peter and then left us alone in this studio office and Peter said fairly quickly what I'd like to do. I like you're writing what I'd like to do is ask the studio to put that script that they just bought from you the drawer and the two of us collaborate on a movie that takes place, and you know, the year he wanted to take place in with all the more primitive aspects of the movie business. And I remember sitting there thinking, you know, fairly early in this business, and this guy's had. A lot of successful films. But he was in the process make one that wasn't going to be successful. But you know, who knew and so he was an extraordinarily influential director, and I'm hearing this thing, I'm thinking, well, I mean, I'm partnered in a way with her when on this. He should be in this room hearing this crazy thing, and I also thinking would just do just do that pay this large amount of money for a script. And then put it in the drawer. And I said, I what exactly I didn't say no probably around and said, well, let me talk to our win-. Let me think about this. But at any rate, what came very quickly was, you know, we might as well try this because if he can do it we're the one who's going to our movie suffer 'cause you know, he's he's got much more clout. And the studio will probably panic thinking mcdonagh bitches developing this. They don't know what stage exactly and not race forward with ours gets going up foot race with him. We go ask the studio when he went in and pitched it. And they said, okay, we'll put the one we just bought in the drawer and higher Richter all over again and hire you, and you you guys right as a movie, and that's how it got going. But it was a very unusual experience. Because I I never collaborate with people I work with directors, very carefully. But when you actually talk about writing, I think, right? I believe screenplay should have a voice not being product of, you know, multiple people. That's why I'm big trouble. If you came relevant because I had to put that script completely aside. And so it wasn't like I was writing inside of the two guys. But with Peter I didn't even know what the process was going to be like, I didn't know who's gonna actually pick up a pen and write something down. And it turned out that we evolved a system that wasn't very productive from my point of view. And we would do the note the note cards, I told him about him and he's throw that sounds like a good idea. And of course, when two people are working as probably a really good idea 'cause you can look at something and talk about it. And you know on a schematic on the wall or something. Well, he said, you know, here's what I think is do you should write. I Persian of every scene and send it to me, and I will rewrite it, and I'll send it back to you. And then you can rewrite it, and we can do this until we both say the scene work. I well me what even say. Okay. So I would write a scene with my, you know, film school notion that it should be three to five pages long and do a couple of and send him to Peter, and he would write them, and he had totally different hours from what I did. He was up all night. So call me at three in the morning. I mean the phone would ring holy shit. You know, it would be Peter. And he said, I've I've worked on the scene, and I think it's much better. Let me read it to you. And I said, you know, I was asleep. That's okay. Gotta hear this. 'cause he's wildland theistic guy. And he would read me the scene, and almost every time it would double in length at least, and the, you know, then I get my hands on it. And I, you know, sometimes I would just make obvious cuts and other. Times. I was just starting to feel this is not working. But I, you know, I'm not going to be a jerk about this. And how this battle Royal with them. Because if we get an overlong script, and they'd be Italy decent, and we can cut it back, and we well and up with something like two hundred thirty pages something he went into Colombia with that. And I did not see this meeting. But it was apparently a rather flamboyant pitch, and he convinced them not only was he going to cut it somewhat. But that it was going to play so fast that it was irrelevant. How long it was? It was a feature length script don't don't panic and they bought it. I mean, they bought that idea. And so we were in pre production. And I know we kept rewriting it and tightening it and doing stuff to it. But I don't think we fundamentally reduced in any, you know, like, it's now only one hundred thirty pages and during that whole thing that was a big issue shepherd. He wanted her in the movie, and you know, at long last love with come out in the studio didn't want her in the movie a very stressful experience. Once but I kinda liked him all along all the time. It was going on because it's part of him. That is so wonderfully take charge about the movies. How much you know, about them. I mean, he knew Ellen doin the silent film director and the guy was out in Malibu in his twilight years and Peter had written. I think even a little monograph on Ellen mon-. So he said it's getting to go see me, I want you to meet Allan Dwan. You know, this is like pioneer of silence films guy was just sitting in this apartment, and he talked to us for quite a while. Those are really heady times. You know, I didn't know what I was Peter was living in a large Spanish, colonial revival from the twenties in Bel Air. And it all you know, he's sort of living the romance of that early Hollywood era while he was hosting Orson Welles as a guest in the house, we were working in Peter's office, which was probably a study once that was appended was joined by a bedroom. But the bedroom. The door close all the time. And I just could have been a closet for all I knew but Peter at one point had to go somewhere for about ten or fifteen minutes. He has a tend to something somewhere else in the house. And I'm sitting on this big sofa sort of sinking into it taking notes based on what we just said for an hour or so and the door cracked open at the other end of the room and Orson Welles emerged in this gigantic caftan, and he was looking straight ahead because the door out of the bedroom. Wind up with the door out of the study, obviously, he was gonna pass through the study and leave. And so I'm slouched into this thing, and I see this enormous figure moving through and he's three feet from is he passes by and realize holy ship. That is actually or some wealth. But he doesn't see me. So I don't want to startle them, and I didn't say anything and just pass through left. No, I'm sitting there alone and waiting Peter to come back. And when he did come back. I said I think or somewhere else staying with you right because he just walked through this room. He said, oh, yeah. You stay here. Every time he's in LA 'cause he says stating so many hotels and stiff them that. He's not well many more than I never saw have again. I don't know where he went into the house. But I was there, you know, every day for a while. And for hours when I was there, and it was just this one sighting that lasted about ten seconds. I know that even when he was talking with Orson Welles for this is awesome. Well, he kept talking about this silent film project that he's working on. But I had no idea that it was kind of weird conglomeration, but not really and putting your story to the side. And then bring you in as a writer. I had no idea that that was all the back story to this. Yeah. It's a pretty rich backstory. I've never experienced anything like it. I part of me says initially they're not going to do this studio because they just paid this amount of money. And you know, you learned a lot about the dangers. Being in of studios being in the thrall of somebody who they're not judging harshly enough, not just being realistically critical, but sort of falling over consaeying, you know, well, you've had all these successful film. So go ahead and do what you wanna do. And it's not healthy for Peter either. I mean, you know, it didn't it didn't produce his finest work or certainly not mine. Yikes. Sent you start to get really disillusioned that settled in early. I thought I can't make a career this because I'm gonna keep running into these nutty experiences that are going to sink me. I don't know what to do about it except just keep plugging ahead. But I did because I had no other choice really at the time. It wasn't anything else. I wanted to do. I really wanted to make cool movies. You're talking about that interesting time those those early seventies late sixties times when we didn't really have the idea of the blockbuster. And we could you know, movies like slid there and peoper Nickelodeon could come out and you're right there on the cusp of the seventy six Nickelodeon coming. Out and jaws coming out and then seventy seven was Star Wars coming out. So how did that affect you? As far as what projects may be were offered or got to start working out. I tend to have a vague memory of exactly what year. I did. What thing? But it certainly changed. The tenor of the town was no doubt about the fact that studio started looking for the next iteration of those movies that you just mentioned, you know, Sar wars jaws. And I think it was a slow erosion of of faith in the in the small movie 'cause I came in, you know, five easy pieces midnight cowboy all that stuff was what was making money, and what was making everybody proud, and it changed underneath me. And you know, I mean, if if I look at the movies that I did after that they were like, I mean, even body snatchers aspires to be something larger than, you know, just a story about people. I mean, they started to look toward more offensive. Ethical ideas. And those are more of the things that came that were being offered to riders at the time. But I I mean, I trying to to, you know, get jobs that actually required writing human characters. And even if it's comedic someone naturalistic stuff, and I mean, it wasn't entirely a friendly climate for that and the longer, you know, I stayed out there the more I realized that they were expecting anything you did to be able to play globally. The dialogue was getting less respect. That's why for me. Big trouble was an incredible opportunity to just say, I'm going to write a film that even though it has all the trappings of an action film, really requires an eccentric character to make the story work at the core guy who can't shut up is actually that's a subversive move to make it that time to to make it driven so much by language and arrogance on you know, you've arrogance on Jack burden's part because scripts were getting. Turf. The dialogue was getting Tertia and terrorist or so it could be subtitled or dubbed for global consumption. And we'll see what we are. Now. Make believe movies that you know, cost so much money. I mean, even our Dracula was was modest budget shot in England, you know, he didn't have even have money to burn to be more resources. I saw that transit experienced the transit as transition. I don't know that I was fully aware of how you know, how extreme it was going to become out there. But it certainly has it tastes a lot of hot spot to go back and readapted or give new life to invasion of the body snatchers after we had the regional, which was such a great film. Yeah. Was Phil Kaufman semi eight invasion of the body snatchers. That is one of those where instances where I think I liked the remake where the new adept tation even more than the original just because there are so many new ideas that you brought to the table. I think I would probably feel the same way. But I'm I'm a little bit invested in seventy eight. But I think we are now looking for more from our movies. No, actually, take that back. I don't think we are now. But I think we weren't seventy eight more textures more nuance. Certainly speaking to our sense of what was scary at the time. And you know, the the nineteen fifties version was really potent. I mean, I thought theater, and it was chilling, but it was over time. And it looks a little bit like a fifties movie now. So when I was asked to adapt, it, this was very strange arrangement. Bob, solo produced it had acquired the rights and sold it to studio, and they said, okay, go get a writer and director, and he doesn't independent. He did those two little requests independent of each other and called me, and I don't remember why he knew me and offered me the project, and I said, well, my quick answer is yes. Because you're talking about dating it. So it's not like, you know, there aren't things to be done. But I haven't read the book and and like to do that. And I did and fairly quickly. He just sat down, and you know, read it because I thought it was going to give to somebody else. If I really decide I want to do this. Got to act. And when we when my agent said, okay, he will. And they started making the deal making it I spoke to on the phone and he said, well, we're just about Seinfeld Kaufman. 'cause he's going to direct it. I happen to know Phil just casually through mutual friend. Actually, Ronda Gomez who. Married Howard's e filing actually was the one the person who got slithered to him and through all those connections. I met a lot of people in Phil was one of them. So I thought that's great because I respect this guy. But holy cow. Bob, what if you were telling me the name now of somebody who I really didn't feel comfortable making a movie with and Phil must have felt comfortable enough because he knew I was going to be adapting it, I don't think we work very closely on the first draft. I know we met and talked, but he may have been actually making another movie. So we quickly without thinking a lot decided we don't think we debated putting it in anything other than a small contemporary town somewhere upper on San Francisco because that's where Phil lived, and you know, kind of free thinking time where you thought you might be able to slip things by people, you know, thematically that they wouldn't notice what was going on because they were so involved in themselves, and then all sorts of self help programs and stuff. So I Br. Wrote a draft in set it in a fan Francisco town that Phil sort of said, this is the model for it. And I don't even we may have gone to it. And I looked at it a little bit. Just again worked my way through the book changing his occurred to me that this, you know, this worked that didn't work, but I knew I had a solid structure, and concept and themes and all that underneath me. And then I got to the end and gave it to him. He liked it and we began pre production. Mike Medavoy was wearing the studio and he liked it. So we've got a green light right away. And we were kind of working on the script one day in office, and we'd heard Elvis died because he did when we were in in this early pre production stage, and I don't know what we started talking about. But one of us suggested that maybe we had misplaced this movie, and it should be in a big city. It might have been filled because he you know, he was experiencing San Francisco, and I think that's more visceral thing to experience in the LA. I was in because I was wondering all over the city. And I thought it was a great idea. If I if he proposed it in if I propose that I thought I had a great idea. But it was scary. Because we were I don't think we were more than seven weeks or so away from production. And you had a case where these the two central creators, suddenly talk them selves into real insecurity about the fundamental choice made to put it in the small town. So what do we do until said? Well, let's go down the hall right now and knock on Mike Medavoy office door and tell them that this is what we think we should do and see what happens. And I think he instinctively thought it was a good idea. But I know he said right away to fill. You can't change the budget. And you can't you gotta shoot it up in the San Francisco area because I mean, crews were being oh preparations were being made. We were casting thing. And can you possibly get this thing ready and seven weeks if not the whole thing, you know, enough of it? So that we know it works in your starting shooting. Rick is writing on the back end of it are. Not necessarily the back end the middle because you know, shoot front back. So he gave us his blessing which was really courageous thing to do. But I know it was the right choice because definitely was a better script. And I just began writing it as you know, as as well as fast as I could. And we would go to San Francisco and now we can look at different locations different possibilities. Come up with different job for Donald character. Started thinking of it as a more vibrant urban paranoid, thriller sci-fi thriller, and I pretty much my wife, and I pretty much moved to San Francisco and lived in a hotel from most of the production because I was on the set a lot and trying to respond to what the actors would bringing with him kind of energy. They had amongst themselves, but also continuing to polish the narrative and keep it going forward on a daily basis and at one point when we turned the final draft. Shift into the studio but halfway through production. They did something that I don't know people do anymore, but they gave it to a timer. And this person read through the script and decided it wasn't feature length. We're halfway through. It feel was quite rightly convinced that it was feature length. And I remember somebody coming to the set and telling us that. And I he is heels and he said, I'm I don't have to pay this thing. But trust me, it's it's a feature like that. Of course, it was a little too long when he got his first cut together. Of course, it was future link. We knew it. I don't know who timed it. But that was a dangerous kind of process because somebody would have to decide how long director was going to take to execute an action sequence. And that's every directors different on that, you know. So somebody came up with, you know, your ten minutes shy of whatever they thought was a magical number and so that went on throughout the whole production. And and then when we decided that there was going to be the Donald who's going to be compromised and become a pod. We kept that a secret from everybody. But I think Mike Medavoy, and I didn't write that into the script. I didn't write an alternate ending in. But I think it just said I don't know to be you know, to be written to be determined or whatever and on 'til the actual shooting that scene I had written. But it wasn't included in the script asked outside that that day. I guess because it was gonna happen in the same location and was gonna be the same characters. And I guess maybe they were going to run it embraces far as the people making the movie thought, you know. And so there was there was a lot of wonderful. I dunno fly by the your pants stuff in that movie. And I think I can see it in the film that it wasn't an overindulgent budget or schedule or anything like that. It was just kind of movie making I enjoy it is I'm not trying to blow smoke up your ass. But it is so well done and just I love one love the chemistry between the actors and that movie. Well, it's looking away because even though, you know. They're all good actors. You can't bring them together. You don't get the budget to bring them together. Long enough to discover somebody is really not going to work. So, you know, her fill handle it beautifully. I mean, he chose well and created an atmosphere on the set where people were excited about what they were doing. And every now and then there'd be tensions within edible. Because you know, somebody thought you were going to do something slightly differently. But for the most part it was a pretty smooth production. That's the stuff that's fun for a writer. See, you know, when like Jeff Goldblum being able to like in that bookstore. Do that seen the way? He did it. I mean, the inward and outward all at the same time, you can sort of right that. But I didn't know Jeff at the time. And so I didn't know well, initially, I didn't even know he was going to be cast money was I didn't really know how much he could do with so little because it was, you know, not a big role in that scene. And you're right. I mean that there's stuff that just came alive when they did it for on a car ride has. Chilling moment. She said, why do we always expect metal ships? It can make sure you know. And so I I agree. It was it was really fun to do it. And then toward the end in post production for the last week. But right, a lot of dialogue that would be when that dialogue, but voices that would be coming over inter calms, and you know, just sort of give it atmosphere, and that was really fun because I mean, there was a director trusting writer and read at the very end asking you to contribute more. Those are the experiences that I cherish or those others where I would think what am I doing this? You know? Yeah. I. So you had been a writer for well over a decade when you came to buck groupon Cy and I'm curious how did you make that move to directing? And what was it like directing somebody else's work? Gosh, what it was like the mid seventies. Macro. And I both went to Dartmouth. And he was a seventy one and sixty eight we were there one year. But we didn't know each other. We subsequently realize though that aren't when Arthur Penn brought buying CLYDE to the college and showed it he had a question and answer session upstairs in a room in student center. And only about fifteen people went and MAC, and I both were there. We didn't know. I mean, I don't know if we were sitting next to each other or what? But that was sort of the beginning of a very sort of fortuitous relationship because after I got out of college. He had a book published that he wrote in college. It was Arkansas audio. So a very short novel that was reviewed really, well and an alumni. Magazine. And I got it and read the novel. I thought it was terrific, and I've been reading what I thought were bad writers for Warner Brothers. You know, because I was getting everybody who wanted to write a screenplay was like I had to cover it. And he was such a marvellous writer that I wrote him a letter saying if you want to you don't know what you're doing. But if you wanna several through publisher, if you want to even entertain the notion of writing the movies, I think you could be successful at it. And he wrote in thank me. And then one day I got a phone call 'cause he had my phone number. I gave it to them out of the blue that he was in LA in a motel he plan to LA and with the intention of calling me. But max like that he wouldn't warn me was coming, and I happened to be home. So when picked him up, and my wife, and I made him a dinner and found him a place in an apartment building across from us. And they introduce them to one Winkler, and as he was getting little pitches from Irwin, which you like to do this that he told us one. Tonight about this serial going in his head buckle bandy, Andy why who was a country western scientist. I think was the two roles. He had at that time doctor yet, and in magazines, very dry sense of humor, and it just sounded really really funny, and we gave him a very small amount of money 'cause you know, we had delusions of we're going to be a production company. And and you started writing scripts for us for buck ru and he would lose confidence thirty pages in with one narrative he'd come up with and he put it down to showing us pages. And I you know, I give some input and then he'd come back saying, well, I don't like that story anyway. So here's another one. And he did that about four five times. He would generate once treatment for one sixty pages of one twenty of another got to the end of one whole script. And I didn't know what to do that at that time because it was very it was buckled like stuff, and I don't even remember we tried to set it up. I mean, I couldn't have set it up any. But I partnered with Neil canton later on in in a thin. We called Atlantic pictures, and we were looking for material. I had these two hundred pages of all the things that MAC had written. You know, just like a sampler of they stops and starts and gave him the kneel. And he liked them very much. And he said, I know, you know, Sidney beckerman is close to David. Beagle. Men and everybody that time was thinking about raiders of the lost power being all, you know, cereals, they that stuff works so Sydney liked it. I kind of like anything, and we gave it to David David like that enough to say the next day. I don't want to buy the world of buck. Robots? I you know, implication, that you know, by all these stories and stuff, but I will commissioned screenplay based on this one. It was called lepers from Saturn and turned into lectu, it's planet ten and a higher Mak rush to write the script. And then when we went through several drafts of it and be women decided he did wanna make it. He ask. Asked me pretty much out of the blue 'cause I would have been a producer. If I wanted to direct it. And I don't know why I don't know why he felt that way. I mean, he's not the kinda guy you would get close to or very cold distant sort of person. Never understood. What is what is thinking wasn't anything? And then finally kills themselves. So the whole thing was sort of weird. But I said absolutely I would because I was getting this loosened enough with a lot of the experiences with other directors and I'd love this material. I just I just found it incredibly funny and smart, and what's being offered an opportunity that I just saw let's do it. Let's try we did a couple more polishes. And then he gave it a green light. And we began trying to assemble cast that somehow catch the spirit of what was on the page. Everything was there. But it didn't immediately say that when you start to actually shoot this thing, you know, going in with the tone is really going to be because there's hidden humor. Some of the stuff that Mak, right? And it'll erupt when a good actor delivers deadpan nobody's going for humor. We're just gonna do this material. So that was that experience. It was a real revelation, as you know, it started to evolve, and I think a revelation and the negative way for beagle. Men because he clearly was not a raiders of the lost ark. And it was going to enjoy it and Cronin. With was the original cinematographer. I thought played one was what the most beautiful movie I've seen part from Dr Strangelove in black and white Jordan said he would do it. So we start so we had all sorts of plans for a same kind of comic tone, but a moodier look to play against. So you actually somehow felt that might be real jeopardy, but it was still an absurd situation. He shot the operating theatre the first that was my first day. And when the studio saw that when beagle men saw that he went crazy because it was all the light was focused on the brain. That was being operated on. As it was we went into an operating theatre and saw what would narrow surgery looked like. And he's no it's just like that. There's a bright lights everywhere in the room. And there's a, you know, a ring seats around the edge where interns are leaning over looking down and a real television version old thing and from that moment ATI just was determined to get rid of Jordan Hooker by crook. And and really did subvert him. They screwed around the MGM lab and messed up his dailies made him look over exposed and Jordan was beside himself. And he had Vilmos Siegman came on the set one night with his light meters. Jordan's they were comparing you getting the same readings, and then the dailies would come back with and shitty and one day. Beagle men just took me a side and said very early on not exactly took me aside. One upstairs in remember the name of a real creepy. Mafia kind of restaurant in Beverly Hills and. After shooting up stairs meet with him. And in this big function room that had you know, like a table in the middle that kind of very sinister and by a couple people eating with beagle. Men and the came in and told me that basically he had hired. Fred cone camp. He'd seen the locations. He was willing to do the movie he was that he'd be going would be firing Jordan at the end of the week that we were shooting a nightclub. And if I didn't like it he was gonna shut the home down right then and there, and I thought this is off the charts. I mean, I've got so many people who are committing to this movie will just be fired the next day. They have no deals they're not going to the crew and all those people. Plus, we were actually making it. And we and I don't know. I said I mean, I'm not happy, but I'm not gonna walk away from this. So he did fire him three days later, one of the most painful things I've gone through because I was working with Jordan for three days. Now, this was the end of his tenure here, and he's a great cinematographer. Some the best looking stuff in the movie is his hand. But Fred was a great guy had gone and camping inherited Jordan's light package. You know, there were two trailers full of florescent lights and weird stuff. And Jordan wasn't gonna you weren't gonna see the lights. He was gonna put him on the floor and places and his people moved around they would pass through the Erie glows. But Fred when explain that. And we said, you know, I don't know how that what you talking about people will step on them. So he started to incorporate them, you can see them in the movie and places in yoyo Dyne and stuff, and he never really get his head around, you know, he grinned and laughed about like what the hell. Are we doing here really what is this movie about? And I just pretend the whole thing is not happening on her. Even though you're done just pretend it's not having earth, let your imagination go. So he got really. Into it. But it wasn't Jordan Cronin. With light. It wasn't like they'll give you one quick example, the bunker up in the beginning of the movie that monitoring the jet car test has a huge slice in on the wall, which is letting in desert light, and it's like one of those bunker viewing slits, and it was designed that way with Mike Riva, brilliant brilliant production, designer handed hand with Jordan to send in through this relatively dark room because everybody was looking at monitors and they didn't wanna wash everything out. So that their that'd be close scattered around the room hot streak of desert light slicing across the room at eye level. I think it was the secretary of defense who was going to be revealed because he was sitting in the beginning of the sandy was a rise at some key moment in the middle of some speech and just face is gonna land in this lash of light, we're gonna be in moments like that all throughout the movie, and I could never convince Fred then he had to put so much light outside that he created that slice. It was the set. And so. Right now. It's just bleeding light into the room when somebody stands up into it. It's like it's not there. There's no dramatic real. So you constantly deprived of storytelling tools? And that's why bodies Natcher's with Mike Chapman working hand in hand. With Phil has those nuances of those moves and with buck rule, we had to do kind of a big shift and say, no, it's going to be flattered the movie's gonna look less like it's got some gutsy edges playing up against max, crazy, plotting and dialogue. It's gonna look maybe more of a piece which is not the end of the world. But it's not as ambitious as just just is what it is. And you're always, you know, worrying that their shadows. On the wall from the too many lights hitting an actor. And you know, what the three shadow silhouette? Way too much light. And that one run for the whole movie. But somehow it got to the end and the existing. I'm really glad we did. Because you know, what if we didn't what if we all just caved and walked away how on earth did they decide to market that film because when he tried to describe that movie to somebody it just it never does Justice. No, well, clearly be woman lost faith in it as he was watching dailies initially. He came to the set the second second group scenes, we shot we're out on the desert. So we got one day in the hospital, and that was Jordan Cronin with and then we traveled to the desert, and I had had three days or something like that hersal with the full cast and they had MAC their Ross. And I wanted him to, you know, be able to transcribe or Belge any changes came as a result of the rehearsal. And also to make some blocking notes for me because we did crudely block the scenes. 'cause I was intimidated. I mean, there's a lot of scenes with multiple people in it. And I'm directing my first film. So I thought this is prudent thing for director to do is to have the writer there and have him not expand the scene, but maybe spend the amount of space. It takes up on the page because he's breaking a long speech and half. And and saying somebody's going to you know, walk across the room as basic as that. But I didn't wanna forget that six weeks later that that looked cool and somebody did that. So while we were out at the desert Makati iron the stuff in already, and it was being typed. I guess that we were in the hospital, and it was given the beagle men that night, and we got word that the script had gotten ten pages longer, and that was in a blind rage because we had a completion bond, and that was attached to both the length of the script, but also to the budget and the shooting schedule, and I got word I'm in the middle of this second second day, that'd be wanted me to know that he was coming to the desert to talk to me about this thing this horrible. The thing that I had done. I said Neil canton. I can't even read what Mack wrote. I hope he didn't write ten new pages of material. But if you can read it, I can at least have your input and deal with big Amon when he gets here, and he'll read it and said, no, it's got stage directions. And it's nothing new in it. It's the same schedule. We can keep and it doesn't has nothing in it. That increases the budget. So I thought this is going to be pretty simple ridiculous for big woman to not have done that himself and get I drive out here. Have somebody drive him out here? But it's going to happen. I can't stop it. So at the end of photography that day. I had to meet him in a little tiny function room in in a hotel. We were staying we'll never forget this thing this moment. I before you get into this. I want you to know that we are going to stay on budget and on schedule, and I think I'll do a more efficient job because what made it longer we're not taking in rehearsal that actually have blocking in them. And I'm not gonna have to reinvent all. Of that. And he said to me John Milius tried to convince me of stuff like this by picking up a chair throwing across the room. You're trying to beat me with logic. And I won't let that happen. That leaves you kinda high and dry, and I said, well, I'm sticking to that assessment of what just happened that. And he said, okay, you'll be getting a deal memo from my studio that I'm going to ask you to sign, and it came I think, I don't know if it came while we were still in the desert, but it was a deal memo that was a revision of my original contract. And it asked me to sign it and say that if I went a day over schedule, and I was the cause of it. I would have to pay for that out of my salary. Now, I was being paid fifty thousand dollars to direct the entire movie, and it probably costs, I don't know fifteen or twenty at that time, maybe twenty five thousand dollars a day to shoot this movie. So I well my agents said no way, you're not signing thing like this. And I said he will shut the movie down. It's that basic and against everybody's advice. I signed the thing. So now, I have this. Neal knew it and MAC nuit. But I didn't wanna tell the cast that because it just seemed the strangest thing, you know, and I mean, if we got rained out, it wasn't my responsibility. But it's a very vague more of the thing if you lose time because it looks like you're taking too long to get a scene done whose fault is that you know, when we were shooting the jail seen. I think Peter Weller and Ellen barkin started to get on each other's nerves and kind of playing games with each other's close ups and stuff and knocking each other off stride. And I was losing the day. And we didn't even have that location. The next day. I mean that was a one day you got this empty prison in LA, and you can shoot the seem then you gotta get outta here. And you've got other commitments the next day anyway, and I thought holy at. This is gonna this is gonna be not only a disaster on the production level because we don't think we can come back here tomorrow. But I mean, they're like thirty thousand dollars or something. So I took the two of them side. And I look I didn't wanna tell you all this. But I told them that story and amazing they they just behind, you know, creative people and told the rest of the cast and from that point on it was the holy war between all of us and beacon, it was a very strange experience. And we had the same thing. I'm I know I'm saying things that people who read about this movie at all know all about but the red glasses issue we put red glasses on buck. Ru when he was in the press conference. It was the first time he wore them and equal men had an executive named Mike Nathanson on my set every day. Just to watch me to make sure that I was not being responsible, and we weren't behind schedule at all. But when become the dailies the next day and buck standing there with red glasses on that was his strange and as outrageous to him as the neuro-surgery theater where the lights were on the patient and. And he sent Nathanson back the next day say to me that I had to shut he was shutting down production in the middle of the day. And that I had to go to his office on the lot and meet him. So we walked across the lot with the production shutdown. Nobody knows what the hell's going on. It's just that. We we're not shooting right now because Rick has to take a meeting with David vegan, and he'd seen them earlier on Peter and challenged me and said, how many more times are you going to use them in this movie 'cause it's on film for one? And I had no idea. It wasn't a big plot. To put a lot of red sunglass red glasses in it. So I said one tweet only twice I just made it up only twice 'cause I didn't I didn't care. I didn't even need to see them one more time and Sidney beckerman at that time had hurt was in that little encounter somewhere and was now in the second meeting when people was saying you told me and we're gonna use them again. Whether I was allowed three times, and I was using them for the third is becoming fuzzy in my head. But I was I had crossed the line and beagle mind. But I know I hadn't crossed it, and we all agreed to and I said, no, no, no, this is the last time because you said I could use them. Let's say X number of times. And he said, I did not. And the only thing that back from ever did the stick up for me was raises and the facts, I David you. Did you told him could use them three times two times, whatever? And beagle. Men to see he was being told by contemporary of friends, you know, a colleague a drinking gambling buddy that he was wrong. And he he had to eat. It turned to me again. It's always been said. All right. Okay. I'll accepts it with Sydney saying, but who use them once more the movie is shut down And you know, I fortunately did not intend to use them once more and the same the watermelon is related to this as well. Because we knew from what had happened in the desert when he came up and screamed about the lighting the operating theater, and what happened when he saw red sunglasses that he was watching those dailies like, I'm Ed and Trump watches Muller, just getting seething at everything. And at some point we weren't hearing a lot of should anymore. So we thought is there a possibility that that he's broken that? We've warned him down that he hates this movie. But he's not gonna can't quite pull the plug on it because there's no real reason. So Mike Riva was coming into the location one day, which is an abandoned. Our guess Armstrong rubber factory are tire factory that we were shooting. Yo your dining and on the way in twenty past one of those Chicano roadside fruit. Stamp and they were selling water. So really not knowing what he was gonna do with them like twenty watermelons. And because we had talked about the conformance. There's a scene in the conformist where though desk is in this book ably covered with walnuts. Just sitting there. They nobody comments on them. They're not part of the scene, but they are paving the whole desk, and we laughed about that. And he said, well, I'm gonna do something the watermelons because if I do something crazy enough, and I had conversations with this with Mike about this. And nobody says anything we're gonna know they're not watching our daily anymore. So we had this little walk through. It was just pointing interesting nooks and crannies in this building that I could walk through. And then they chase search whatever and those fantastic room with that incredible green machine that looked like it was designed to put pressure on things for whatever reason to make them a certain shape or destroy them to see how much stress they could take. And I put in put a watermelon there and we'll crank down right onto the. Half of it. And then when Jeff peppy walk through they will have that. We just made that up. What's the watermelon doing there? I'll tell you later, and we thought it would be if he doesn't go batch it he'd never sought. And then we heard not a word about it. So then we just really pulled out all the stops. And then, you know, like, they're making that big fear that falls out of the tree, and it's being shaped on a wire cage by gun shooting styrofoam liquid styrofoam that then hardens and the war. Trump guy started screwing around in the big area that had been given a on the sound stage, and they were spraying clothing with it. 'cause cool these stiff jackets and stuff, and I came by the see the big fear. And I said, I think credible jackets, you know, to what about all. We're just playing around. Well, no, I think think about it think really hard. Is there anything we can do this? And they turned out to be the kind of safety jackets hanging off the harnesses that the guys electrodes war. When the ship took off at the end, there's sort of bouncing in wearing these big crush, the pieces of clothing that have been sprayed with styrofoam. And that was the spirit. You know, if you think about it, and you think it doesn't violate some, you know, premise in this movie, or it's in the spirit of where the movies going just do it because you're never going to get a chance to do this again. No matter what happens, and that's all over the moving that one. I've amazing ever directed a second time. Well, almost didn't it took seven years, and I didn't even want to do it. Then really? I mean. Yeah. About. About. Just disgusted me enough. We wanna leave town which eventually did. So. Well, you said that you went to school with Earl shouldn't you weren't really even aware of it where you wear of John carpenter at USC. Oh, absolutely. We were. I mean, we were majoring in the same thing theory, doing graduate work at film of very small environment. I mean, it was it was a stable that used to have horses in it on the US allot. So you were all tripping all over each other trying to share editing equipment and super eight was what we started on. And that's really that's editing spaghetti. I mean that is really like craziest time, so we all knew each other. So how did he pro you to work on big trouble in little China? He didn't studio sent him the finished script, and he really liked it. And he called me in and we had a very pleasant conversation remembering things, and you know, I had done Boca ru. And of course, the first question was why why don't you want to direct this? I don't know if I told him, but I know I need a break. I do not want, you know, and. So he had a very focus that of note and agreed with them, and I went away, and I actually could huge pretty quickly and who's agreement picture already. Because that's why he was in the room. They were you know, trying to get directors. And he said he wanted to do it and they wanted to get him. So they had him and the changes I made satisfied him satisfied the studio, and that's the script he shot. It's full of you know, the script is full of descriptions. But obviously, you know depends whose directing and so the movie looks like John John's visuals, you know, completely suggested by some of my reading and oriental Asian know texts and things like that frantically while I was writing the script. And then he shot the movie, that's it. We've taught a few times about timing, and you know, the the timing of invasion of the body snatchers, which was way too short. The overlong Nickelodeon script when it comes to writing a character. Like, Jack Burton. Feels like that whole idea of one page per minute of screen time might not apply with somebody who speaks so much and speak so rapidly that kind of the case is definitely the case. But it also means that you really don't know how long anything's gonna take as you writing it. I mean, there's an intuitive thing that hard to describe. But if you've written a lot of scripts, and by now, I think I've written over seventy, but then maybe thirty or so where could really sense that I wasn't out of control. I wasn't going to deliver something that was wildly too long. But you can't know especially in an action film, never mind. How fast burden would talk? How much time anybody wanted to devote any of these action sequences? So at some point you kinda put it out of your mind, and you start to write hopefully, right well into the character. And Jack when I first realized that's how he was gonna sound to me because I knew sort of at you as began. He's in a big truck, the CB rage was you know, in full swing at that time. So he was going to have to not be alone in the truck, and I started to make him talk, and I thought holy cow. I really like hearing this guy talk this way. And I'm not gonna worry about length because I'm not gonna have an irresponsible number of scenes in this movie. You know, crazy that it's like non-professional road it. So I just stopped thinking, you know, sap worrying about that, you can always trim dialogue. If you know in a rehearsal. It seems too wordy or Caesar playing too long. But if the remarks and the the comebacks and quips of some are coming to me, I better put him down rather than put them down 'cause junk and always cut them. But I can't just remember them. I was great line. I think I had you know, six weeks ago, and so you just it's like automatic writing. And and Jack Burton was kind of an automatic writing thing for me because I I heard him before I sometimes when you writing dialogue and multiple people are talking in the scene. It is the strangest. That you don't ponder who's going to speak next or what they're going to say. It just seems to come out like it happens in front of you almost like something's talking through you. I think that's often producing better things than if you agonize over. Well, let's say he said that but six other people in this scene and who hasn't spoken recently. What point should be brought up? And so that's why I think that big trouble doesn't a lot of ways take a little sidebars in dialogue that keeps it alive. But it also is a reflection of my not having a master plan that I had to hit these five points in this scene. And then move on. What can see why John carpenter would like it because I know he's still a huge fan of Howard hawks. And a lot of that rapid fire dialogue between the characters is so Huck in. I know I can't pretend to have known that because we all watch different movies. But I and so I don't even know why like that. But I I just like banter that is under. Qabail and somebody talks too much and often gets him herself in trouble as a result of that. And can maybe being Deering as a result of it. And then advertently heroic each just it's a strange thing, you meet you meet characters when you're making them up that you really have an affinity for and wanna spend more time with them that you that you got careful about that because you can spend too much time with them, and you know, sacrifice of other kinds of momentum and structural moves. But it should be an adventure writing. I mean that was my big bone to pick with how screenwriting was evolving when I was a reader, I this is this may be actually interesting I would be reading scripts that were in a kind of pidgin English just to get the job done. He crosses room open store leaves. And it left me cold. I mean, I wanted to be at the movies. I wanted to smell what was happening every now. And then I would come across the writer like Charles Eastman, who the all American. Boy, he. Rected man that was he just turned out to be the world's worst director because he had such insecurity about his own stuff that he would do sixty takes. But I'd never seen any screenplay. Look like his it was almost experimental writing. It would wouldn't call enters extra years he wouldn't not break sentences apart. It wasn't because he didn't know how to just did a almost like a wild stream of consciousness like you imagine the Mozart wrote. But it was funny. The prose was funny. It made the whole thing was alive. And I I would read a couple of scripts you little fos and big halls e and he must have didn't get made. But it was like reading a novelist working in screenplay format. And I thought that's what it should be. It should be entertaining. It shouldn't be just pragmatic, especially if you're going to go out and try to sell it to somebody have I think you have to have a style, that's yours that seems to be in sync with particular material, you're doing, and it's fun to read and those scripts I was reading even. They might have been blueprints for fine movies where dragged to read because it was almost like the writer, you couldn't couldn't create an atmosphere or didn't care too. And as I said just come out of you know, English literature, and where we were trying so hard to take language apart. And see why it worked, and and what the explosive possibilities of certain kind of diction, we're, and what was really, you know, special about and the annual west or I mean, those things were critical to me in my wanted to be a writer, and then I would read screenplay and these people don't care about that. They're not even trying and then Charles Easson would come along. And I would say, oh, I want so badly to be able to write like this. So, you know, that's those are seminal influences. They came in moments not places, and in some way, that's there's a through line to the way wrote big trouble because it was just supposed to be nonstop fun to read and make sense, hopefully as an overall movie, so somebody would wanna make you Tut's about doing research and. You know, looking at some of the the the myths of the Asian culture and seven I'm curious. What were some of those books that you read or did you watch a lot of movies or how did you go about that? I didn't have time to watch movies because my recollection is there was a writer strikes threatening. And I think I'm right on this. I don't know even happened because couple times when you know, I had sort of like a window where I could conceivably finish script before might not. You know, you weren't even supposed to write on them. And that time I well, maybe I shouldn't. And then I'll lose my train of thought, and that sort of stuff it took a lot of sort of crazy energy to read weird fragments from books that I got from the library. And right, simultaneously, like I would sit down and I'd read for an hour and two or three books underlying stuff that thought it might be relevant. But I would think better get back writing and watching movies would have been impossible because you know, that would eat up a whole day if you got three or four movies. So I would have these books. Next to me with posted in it. And it was really a fly by the seat of my pants kind of operation where I I would think well, I need some some texture here that's offensive, and I'd grab one of these books, and I don't remember what they are. I didn't buy them. So they're gone from my library from know my personal library. They're just vanished from my mind, but they weren't fiction. They were, you know, attempts to describe rituals and myths and all sorts of arcane, Asian lore and tried to make it fit in their thunder lightning. Those things those super kind of mythical creatures came out of these books. So I would kind of recklessly throw them on the page and hope that that was the right decision because I could use them later on. I know that opening I don't wanna call the rapper because I don't remember if they ever get back to it at the end, but the opening interview with egg that was definitely added like post production. What? Other things can change between what you wrote and what we see on screen. I want to say very little. I mean, I know that ad-lib always happened under rectors have to make the choice of using them or not. And it's so long since I since I had that script fresh in my mind, but no changes. I mean, John was not the kind of director who rewrote while he was shooting like some I've, you know, the advent of the computer allowed directors to actually right when they're on location scouts and not claim they're doing it. And then the script mutates underneath you. But John shot the script I wrote. And then at the end that was that was everybody stepping back and saying something missing at the beginning because I guess like buck ru there's danger being in coherent. If memory serves neither buck Bucko banzai, nor big triple little China were box office bonanzas when they came out. I specifically remember really bad reviews for big trouble. But they are still with us today, and they have become some of the better films of. The nineteen eighties. And I'm curious when did you know that they were alternately successes will buckle Arrou immediately set on fire a very small group of people who saw in. Maybe even test screenings. But there was a handful. They're still my friends, you know, like Denise and Mike Okuda who now work on Star Trek met over buck arro- when a fan club began to form called, well, they they called it WorldWatch one and they began immediately writing a newsletter, and they she was a nurse at the time. And he was a graphic designer maybe getting into computers, and they fell in love and got married as a result of buckle. Ru they would be you know, they in a small handful of people were generating these newsletters kind of almost in the world of mimeographs. But I think that's a little fanciful was probably copy machines, Iraq and circulating them. There was no internet that was you could use as a medium. And so I would get these requests from this group for interviews. And then I would see the next newsletter and had fan fiction in it. Oh my goodness. And this was happening fairly fast, but not with a large number of people because they lack the ABI. Ability to find each other. But I knew that it wasn't going to go away. There was a rabbit diehard group that thirty something years later, they're still doing new, you know, now, they're working on the internet, and they're very supportive group of people who will push it forward. Anyway, they can and Denise and micro. He's hiding book ru imagery in the Star Trek sets, you know, putting over thrust around the table over in the corner and stuff and that sort of grew from the very beginning into what it is now. Big trouble sneaked up on me because I don't really know when it started to be something that was not going to be forgotten. But it it was years after the movie was released that I somehow I can't remember how suddenly became aware that had this intense support among scifi fantasy fans and that people were quoting Jack Burton, and there were little dolls the people were making it look like him and it startled me. That's simple. I just thought it had vanished. Why do you think it such an enduring film? If you're supposed to like, it, it's joyful, and it's unpredictable, and it's flashy in the best sense and its and its own way a bit of a one off. So when you take chances and make these things that they have what looked like references. Maybe like they came out of some long history of cereals, or, you know, kung FU moves something, but they really didn't. Because you're you're like, I'm not a kung FU movie fanatic at all. So I wasn't lost in that world. So it is a hybrid of what I what amuses me and what I do know about that. We didn't know about that world. So maybe it's that weird mix. I mean, buck ru is very strange mix of things you can't plan. It, you know, you can't really say, well, this is going to be a real strange mic, so watch it'll become a cult film. You just do it because you have a gut instinct that this piece of material is special and different. And let's try to see what it is. When. You stand up on senior actor saying these things, and you think about what thunder and lightning could actually look like the basket hats came out of nowhere. I don't know where they came from. I didn't imagine them. Everybody is contributing on some level if it's clicking right and often while you're making that movie, you really do think not that it's a coke film, the repeal really gonna like this because we're having a lot of fun here. Then it comes out and oh my God. What did we do? You know, what it's so gratifying after all this time here, so many people be affected by it. And how it lodged in their brains? I mean, if you seen the Kevin Smith introduction to it at Lincoln center, Google, buck rebounds, I Kevin Smith Lincoln center. He did a screening of it. And he did the most wonderful recollection of his encounter with the movie when he was a kid, and what it meant to him. And how liberating it was about what you can possibly do if you're willing to take chances. And I think both of these movies do that. Kind of regularly for minute to minute. And I guess maybe that's something to do with. Why people find them unforgettable people who get them? And there's a huge, you know, huge of people just think they're the most ridiculous things truly that ever came down the pike both movies kinda live on. I know that there are comic at -tations and continuations of both buck group and of Jack Burton have you been exposed to those, you know, well, some of the comic book stuff MAC Rosh wrote. And I worked with him on some of them nothing with big trouble. That was all done. You know, I was never contacted. Then that stuff was happening. You know, different experiences with both movies MAC is just finished a pretty remarkable six hundred page, plus new buckle novel for dark, horse comics. 'cause they're they're doing pros now too, and it's amazing in needs editing. I mean is this first draft. But it's it takes wonderful. Is that that was hoping to take the movie, but didn't have the time or the resources or the cinematographer, but this is an incredible piece of writing and he's writing is were the same age as he was when he wrote the original. I mean, I've never read anything. I never know. What's coming next on the page, you may know this or not? But it looks like we're having a successful conversation with them GM and Kevin Smith to do a buck rotea series. But it's incremental, you know, you don't do the series automatically have to have a meeting of the minds and generate a pilot script and stuff like that. But people want to do that. They don't look at it as something that just should sit in the dust bin somewhere that's gratifying strange to you know, like thirty years later. Wow. We mentioned a couple times set your retired. Is that true? Or are you still working on stuff? Well, I'm retired in the sense that I don't go to LA. And I don't pitch things, you know, sitting rooms and try to get people to like what I might wanna. Right. So I'll write prose p. Pieces, and you know, take a screenplay I wrote a while ago and adapted into a novel and not do anything with it. Just because I like the act of writing, you know, a writer doesn't really retire unless you announce it like frosted stop writing, but find a way doing something maybe writing emails to your friends that are too long. You know, you just want to put words down on some kind of a medium and play around language. So I'm retired from the game. I played for all those years. But I, you know, I still think I'm a writer not something else. Rick. Thank you so much for your time today. You welcome. It's been really a pleasure to revisiting all he's crazy movies. Sore back. We're taking big trouble in little China. So I did mention the comic books earlier, and I have to say, I really enjoyed the comics that I have read I've read there were at least three different storylines that they took Jack Burton into one just called big trouble in little China which picks up at the end of the movie. So we get to see what happens with him and Pete that big creature at the end. And then there's old man, Jack, which I mentioned as versus the evil dead. It kinda reminds me of that as far as this reluctant hero the way that it starts kind of interesting because it starts looks like Jack is living in Florida, which is also weird because that's where ash wanted to go. He's living in Florida. Having a great time. And then you realize that he's actually living in like a bubble universe. And he made a deal with a demon to live in this bubble universe and not upset the apple cart. And he led the entire world become hell. Basically, that's a very interesting comic book. And then there's a really strange one, which is big trouble in little China meets escape from New York where we have both Jack and snake Plitt skin. So you've got the to Kurt Russell's going against each other. There's some good humor there. But I mean, the characters are so frigging different. Which is really again, a testament to what carpenter and Russell were able to do to have these two completely different characters and have them completely fleshed out within just a few movies from each other. And so that when I can't say works as well. But the other two titles I highly recommend he's got into was Radi. Because I think I think he goes he'd so skies New York. Whoa. The rightly not, I it's it's is there was another one as well that wasn't too long ago, which was them big triply mother. Russia. Mike is. Illustrated novel. But yet he ends up in Russia. But I I I think that she a little bit. But it was it was a title United cyst, you could just putting anywhere in the world just tweet. So as a base, but yeah, I think I've tried to do some interesting things the old man jet when he's not he's not a tight on. I think it is. I think there is a little bit of a nod their. Yeah, he's one of those things that big triply sort of if not directly lung burning it's sort of typing some of these most traditional narratives while a model. Bahir will you know Skype from New York put in that cookie. Strange. Big trouble spin on them, even just coming cold up. Just to give us oftener refreshingly cold wall in Colville Soviet Russia. The Taiji bay the Russian mob and some of the characters who are in big trouble back of Wang Greis on the streets at Moscow. So that's why did rate of that love fun. I think it's the like a weighing version of Wang who's in that post apocalypse that brings him in. And he screws up because he learns like the the spell, and then he brings Jack Burton and instead of snake get. Yeah. That's what he does. Yeah. I remember that night. Yes. So you have these different versions of these characters. And I think low pan might be behind some of that stuff as well. I'm not sure 'cause low pan definitely shows up in a lot of these daddy's. They want him back with that. That's the thing going to love the fight. We never got a sequel to big from China because midnight had he been made, you know, five ten years ago, you would have had at least trinity probably night, you know, hadn't done Bente by the box Facebook, you know, they would they would have kicked. They would probably find a way to bring load comeback, and it was kind of thing. And I'm now if I take one off to this still love the fact that that was it, and we didn't need any will a lot of people just shit all over the idea of sequels reports cetera. Even though know I always point this out on the show, the Maltese falcon that everybody knows loves was the third version of that story. So not everything is is terrible. And I'm curious with Dwayne Johnson being in. A version of this a lot of people were scared when he did you and I have to say that. And I know I'll get shift for this. But I really liked the version of Jumanji that he was in. So I'm curious if this is going to be a reboot remake sequel or how he's going to work with the original material with his version of this. If it actually comes out because there have been remake talks of escape from New York and or slash escape from LA for decades. Now, we've never seen that. I think these will happen because if you if you've got the rock, you know, attached, you've you've got more of a chance, I think of getting something might rarely off the back of Japan cheese at other film. Welcome to the jungle the debt to big trouble. You know, it has that balance of action comedy sitting in quirkiness. I'm with a lot of fun for, you know, already joined it as well nothing. You know, you've got a better chance of getting that might from what read I'm glad that. He's not it's not a reboot on Blad that it's not in Dwayne Johnson plying jump button because I think I got a problem with that. I think it could set in the same universe fine. I can live with that. Well, not the anyone could really do that the same way that cut Russell. Did it all draw the old Jack comeback the sign con to go? I just the years old because cutoff still Greis still could do it. I think proved you mentioned having gardens the galaxy. He was one of the best things about governor galaxy you know, he was great is. So you still do that. Kind of swaggering fake. Eva ninety sixties seem combat. I'm one of those people in eight says impose like. It's not it's not in principle. I doubt. But I just see new things. And you know, the good sequels and the good remakes our new like they provide something that's actually to do a remake. Well is very difficult thing. Because what you're doing is taking something that was created a very specific time. And I really do believe movies are like time capsules more so than most other art forms. They're very specific to the moment in which they're made. And then you're having to find a way to suddenly make that thing that existed thirty years ago, make it relevant for this moment. That's the trick. Too often. They're done in the most cynical reasons, and they don't work because those stories were about the moment that they were created in. So be interesting to see a big trouble temporary. Big trouble because I wonder. What the entry point into that? It's like wet makes it fresh. Big trouble. Is so exciting the moment that it was made. Because there really wasn't anything like that. There really wasn't a movie that to conch cinema in Hong Kong fantasy movies in an American context that eighty there's another film. But I don't think there was and. Whereas now, you know, we've been we've kinda gone through that whole face we simulated Hollywood say we Hollywood is simulated on confident of a really in the nineties early two thousands in that kind of passed pass through it system. In our back to just whitewashing stuff. When you're talking about the Jack burden snakes lifting kava casting guide. He knows that too. Outrageous to think that someone will do that that'll become as a movie like a as digital technology evolves. Somebody start reproducing movie stars in their use. Like is it is it a completely outrageous notion that someone like, oh, we're gonna make the snake? Listen jappar movie only, it'll be a digital film. So we will hurt Russell as he was in both of those movies. It's come to the point where I feel like you can't laugh at that idea. Like, especially after seeing young Kurt Russell in that guardians of the galaxy movie. And he looked to me looked fine. He looked a lot better than grandma tarkenton Princess Leia. And in the culture like at pop culture eats itself in such a way that I was someone mentioned to me. Remember, how entourage Ackerman was the joke of that? The the joke premise of that whole show. And here we are eight hundred million dollars later. Yeah. That's the thing that I feel bad about is that we. We talked a little bit. And I talked to to Santa king about the whole idea of the, you know, the protests against the movie, and how many Asian people were employed both behind and in front of the camera, and we still don't necessarily have that today. You know? And that's the thing is like we can talk about how Hollywood came in. The basically took all the things that they wanted from Hong Kong cinema. And then they left the rest in one of those things that they they laughed. Unfortunately was a lot of the Asian actors. And it was just you know, you still see occasionally Jackie Chan in front of the camera. But you don't see that many Asian faces in you know, I mentioned whitewashing before it's like how many Asian female actresses. Do. We have that could have been in ghost in the shell rather than having Scarlett Johansson, I'd love Scarlett Johansson, didn't necessarily like that movie that much, but in it's just one of those things where it's like, why are you doing this? This weird cultural procreation which people could accuse big trouble in little China. Nineteen eighty six of having and I'm very curious. If Dwayne Johnson makes this is they're going to be those cries or will he be the second banana in Lao, an Asian person to be the top and that film. Seem doing that. I think he can laugh at himself enough to do that. I think he would I think he'd have a think he would appreciate what's going to be the most entertainment on any coming from wrestling theatrical, IVA blood, silly in all imagine in having that in it. I think the difference with big trouble never quite a quite got the problem with with a big triple thing in the difference with the different that it seemed to be trying to to sort of on a some of these traditions city as Wasi seem to try to understand the fellowship understand the cultural side Ave ten site. The end of the hero is the Chinese going in the heat. He's the hero. He's going sites the dime. Whereas something ghost in the shell you fill. Mike is really shooting themselves in the fall, you know, because that might be something that doesn't culturally face that try to square peg in Ryan hall. I'm the results is something flatly stuff. The something that doesn't doesn't really work because he doesn't of the culture that it was knighted onto the source material. So I think there's a big difference. I think something triple I think the criticisms might be big to fair. Fair. I think to the style in one respect to conceal the main. But I didn't know that I'm trying to do the right thing where the criticisms after the film was made because I remember at the time when when the movie was being made there were protests from the Chinese American community. But I felt like that had a lot to do with another movie, which is this Michael Camino film called your of the trag in which I haven't seen in a long time. So it's really unfair for me to comment on. But I I suspect could be considered racist. Whereas again, I'm not someone to comment on this being white male. But but I never thought big trouble was racist in any way, quite the opposite. To me. It was like an entry point into the culture and made great efforts in very gracefully humanized, the Chinese community for mainstream American audience, whereas I think. Here. The dragon perhaps the opposite. And that's what people were at the time were really offended by. But I wonder was there a backlash against big trouble. After people saw the movie, I think it was all beforehand, and that they got it. I ran out before the movie came out not that that ended up helping things because, you know, carpenter talks in the commentary again about how little money there was behind the putting this out, and the thing that really surprised me was sandy talking about how basically the guy in charge of the studio was like, we don't wanna see any expletive deleted faces on this poster, you know, like there was an open hostility towards Asian actors from the head of the studio who was in charge when this movie came out, and it's just like. Wow. Okay. So they're going to you know, you can't necessarily market this movie any other way, then putting Kurt Russell on the poster and having him be. The big star. And then subverting your expectations. Once you get into the theater, but you know, so it was a little bit of a weird bayton switch type of campaign, but you really you have to sell it that way, you know, you have to say Kurt Russell as the hero. And then once you get in there, then you realize no he's not the hero that he is a second banana, even though he's the guy who ends up killing low pan. But you know, he is undone so many times that that famously that we talked about earlier of him shooting the plaster in that coming down on his head. There's another scene where weighing is just kicking ass of all these different guys. And Jack is they're trying to get his knife out. And he's just the whole time. He's trying to get his knife out of his boot. And it's just like, okay, you are completely ineffectual. And I can't even see like a second banana necessarily doing that. Like, I can see Sala getting scared of the ass in that kind of stuff, but solid. The end of the day is a really effective person in the first raiders not like the third raiders where he was a nincompoop. P-? But luckily, they had all that stuff worked out. But yeah, I think it was totally year of the dragon. Then it's weird because I don't remember that many protests around black rain, I don't remember that many protests around rising sun and rising sun to me is one of the most racist movies that came out that was really hard to watch. And like, I would not recommend that anybody go back and watch that one because it is super dist uncomfortable like treating Japanese people like they were from outer space, and I was such a, you know, a reactionary film, especially after the Japanese were just kicking our all through the eighties. As far as our economic stuff goes. And it was really reacting to a lot of stuff with that. Big trouble to be a really progressive. Maybe just like all of John carpenter's films. Were there really socially progressive? They've had a I think he was a card carrying liberal and. And you know, you feel it's a those films date. Well on the nice thing too. Is again, listen to that commentary in other interviews with him. He will never back down from how much he was influenced by other movies. You know, like I thought about Howard hawks. And we all know that it was a huge Howard hawks fan. But he will bring up in a heartbeat. Like, oh, yeah. We watched a lot of these movies. I was a huge fan of Choi Harkin warriors from the magic mountain, which if folks out there haven't seen worse for the magic mountain. You can really see a lot of big trouble in that. And especially because these this really hapless army guy who is basically hiding out from his own army, and he gets involved with this source or and has no idea what the fuck is going through so much of this in his pretty much along for the ride, and again is pretty ineffectual. Sources great he'll bounce all around and special effects are amazing in that film. You can see a lot of. Some of the ideas, like, I it seems very young going to evil dead feels very evil dead in so far as the way that they're using fast motion, and and animation and all these kind of things to to to convey, the story, you know, the I think that same Ramey was right there as far as we see that especially once he brings John. Whoa. Whoa. Ver-? And when we have army of darkness like there, especially the end of army of darkness that takes place at the s mart that is right out of a John woo film. So he was very much like bringing Hong Kong sensibility to this. And I see John carpenter doing very much the same thing by reinterpreting some of wars magic mountain into big little China. So let's go ahead and take another break, and we're gonna play preview for next week show. Danny. Seem to. On what to do? Magic. Bill to taste. Cushion. That is. There's something missing. In. That's it. We'll be back next week with our first of two episodes about Ernst Lubitsch where we'll focus on trouble in paradise and to be or not to be until then I think this week's co host Vincenzo in Tony holy shit. Tony Vincenzo, I've just entered into another one of the podcasts that I do, which is the culture tapes. So Tony, what is the latest with you? I'm brian. Being still fund while I'm doing onto its two black ride into. It's about my blog. WWW dot the coach will come decides. She don't come where I'm reviewing films TV shows on Jimmy do Nockles, and my that will also be on my website mine Steiner website, which is to WW dot set type dot com site, you can find one on to narrated what projects have been working on lately, sir. Steph finishing a loopy for Netflixing that some based on a novella by Stephen King and Joe hill called in the tall grass which has been a lot of fun to do. And, you know, perpetually rolling that heavy rock up, very steep hill. I thing going, but in the meantime, you can find me on Twitter at mentally very nice. I hear your recently on the shining two three seven podcasts. Thanks to you. Yeah. That was a lot of fun. We'll thank you again. Guys beyond the show is a lot of fun. I wanna thank everybody for listening, please on over to the website projection booths dot com and find out more about today's episode. You also find links of items we can review the show and patron where you can make a donation to the show donors get early access to every episode as long as I'm not running late every donation in every rating, we get helps the projection booth take over the world. The truth. We better. Nine. Three. Out of. Now the. The misdiagnose. If you enjoy this show, and what more people know about it. Head on over to I tunes Lee comment and rated five stars. Make sure you like insurance on Facebook. And don't forget to follow us on Twitter. Just search for Christopher media. 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