Episode 230: Never Again Action - Tal Frieden, Becca Lubow
Support for this episode of Judaism unbound comes from the Osman. Family JCC in Palo Alto California. Whose vision is to be the architects of the Jewish Future, the Ashman family JCC's is an incubator for new expressions of Jewish identity. It creates innovative learning celebrations, arts programs that inspire personal connections to people and ideas from across the Jewish world learn more at www dot. Palo Alto JCC DOT Org. This is Judaism unbound episode. Two hundred thirty, never again action, welcome back, everyone I'm Dan Lee, Benson and Electro Berg and today we are beginning. What's going to be a long series exploring topics of social justice and Jews of color in part because a lot of the activists and folks that we're wanting to talk to are. Actively involved in protest movements, and it's hard to get everything. In exactly the timeline that we want, this might be slightly scattered, but we think it will all hold together in the end as many of our series, do and world titles up towards the end with conversations between the two of us, but today we are thrilled to welcome to activists that we have known well, and who have been on this podcast before who are involved in an organization called never again action, which is a movement of thousands of Jews and allies fighting to end the United States cruel immigration policies never again. Action takes action that directly targets the system. System demonstrates the stakes to the public and inspires people to join. It's committed to nonviolent action, and as they say, it's role is to expose and disrupt the daily violence of the system, not add violence that would weaken our authority and endanger allies never again action was in the news, recently a number of times, but one time in particular when there was an action outside of a detention facility in Rhode Island and one of the workers there drove a car into the protesters. Our guest tell Freidan was there at that protest? Tall is an activist who lives in. In Providence Rhode Island, they helped to spearhead never again action, Rhode Island which has worked in partnership with an organization, called a more which will be talked about in the podcast alliance to mobilize our resistance to seek statewide bans on both private prisons and collaboration with ice tall, was named to the forward newspapers forward fifty and twenty, nine, thousand nine in annual feature that spotlights fifty of the most influential Jews in each calendar year I should note. The Dow was also an episode of Judaism. Unbound where we talked about another organization that they're involved in Judaism on our. Our own terms, which is a collective organization of the groups at various college campuses that are doing Jewish life activities outside of the zone of the established institutions on campus. Our second guest is Lugo. She recently did a special episode of Judaism unbound because she is our fellow this year. She's a fellow at Judaism unbound through a partnership with new voices magazine Becca produced and hosted the bonus episode of Judaism unbound called. WHO's Judaism that was released not too long ago and as an activist, she works with patients like if not now and never again action Tolin Beca. To welcome you back to Judaism and bound to talk about this important activists work. You're doing so welcome to Judaism unbounded so great to have you both back on again. Having creativity in conversation with you all. We'll tell I'd love to start with you because I guess. You're starting to be our regular guest when we're looking at some kind of. Some kind of activity that people have done in the past, but the the young folks these days are doing different. So last time we were talking about Judaism on our own terms, and how you're doing Jewish life differently on campus, and now you've graduated from college, so we're moving on to social justice, and you're involved in the early days of never again action and I'd love if you could just describe a little bit about how it came to to start its work. Yeah so the origin story of never again action is that strength address seen wasn't organizer for Cosette. John which immigrant rights movement on led by directly impacted folks in undocumented folks. Put out a facebook post. That was I. Think I'm really pissed about how immigration is being discussed in this country. It was right when Alexandra Cossio Cortez said that the detention camps in this country are concentration camps, and the national media wasn't an uproar about debating the rhetoric of weather. These camps should or could be classified as concentration camps instead of discussing the horrendous conditions. That immigrants still to this day are being subjected to in a concentration camps in this country and dot. Facebook Post that strength allergy and posted. Led to Google form, which led to other people opposing it, which led to me being on zoom call with some other organizers about a week of action across the country. Starting with the first action in Elizabeth New Jersey. And followed by actions in Philadelphia, providence the Bay Area Austin, and following that we action there were over forty or fifty actions in the following months across the country led by Jews immigrants in our eyes and campaigns across the country to close the concentration camps and to abolish is. BECKA had it. You get involved in this work. So, when Serena put out that call as Jews. We've seen this before I'm angry. We should be storming these camps a friend of mine, Brandon, on who was an organizer. I knew through. If let now a different Jewish activists movement commented, I'm in, but actually and I like a day or two later. got a call from him. And we, we hopped in zoom call with some people that night and I remember. At first we were talking about one action like it was a tiny people came together like let's let's do one action. Justice shift the narrative about like this should be a debate about the semantics of the word concentration camp and should actually be moment when we talk about what you do if there is a concentration camp in your country. As a Jew. Whose family may or may not have history with that pain? There is a concentration camp in your country right at this moment. What do you want to be doing? And the answer was something you know And I felt like we. We put out a Google farm and We were expecting a few dozen people to may be down for an action in there were thousands of people in that forum immediately and I think a of people had the sense I felt which was a thank God. There's something to do. because I've been wanting to do something for so long and just felt completely powerless and like well. There's one person there's nothing I can do. And it turns out. A lot of people felt that way, and they just needed someone to point and be like running back direction, and once we all kind of found each other realize that everyone felt that way. Like okay, we can dream bigger and. Like as the rest of that summer showed clearly, there was so much energy from our community to do something, and we never set out to like make an organization. Initially it was. We're going to have one action, and then it was. We're going to have one week of action where we try to tap into a few other places. And then it was oh. New Actions kept popping up. You know we'd say we're. WE'RE GONNA go for two more weeks and then we'll be done, and then there'd be more actions the next week that we're in the process of being plan because new cities wanted to get involved, and things really took off on a local level in a lot of places, and so we kept saying. Let's figure out how we'RE GONNA. End It and then more things kept happening eventually we realized through conversations with. Partners in the immigrant Justice Movement in Costa, Rica that actually we. We shouldn't shut things down on I mean 'cause a organizers said to us. It's great that you're here in showing up, but don't disappear tomorrow. We need people to fight with us for the long haul, and we need these New People who've been activated to stay activated. Because concentration camps still exist, and so we really like fi turning never again into a more permanent thing until it became like really clear that it needed to stick around. So, there's so many pieces of what both of you just brought up. That I think are really really crucial for us. the I wanNA mention is what each of you described in different ways as like. There was this sense that we had to do something and the we hear. I don't know how to define. Because there was no institution, there was no you both you talked about tile. How the story began with a person's name and their facebook post Serena Adler Stein and her facebook post and Then the like. What a week or a couple of weeks, there was like A. A movement I'm like there was at least an action and it was being discussed in publications, but like a lot happen very quickly, and I want to reflect on how somebody could hear. That is just Oh. Like there was a snap of the fingers and this arose, but I actually think that that reflects is that there's been for many years. sort of the growth of a move I would describe it as a movement We could debate what that means, but there's been the growth of a huge cohort of roughly young ish or young Jews and so I wanNA talk about like what was already like. How did it happen that one person created a facebook post, and then within a week or two? There were all these people that are like what is behind that to some extent I think it's it's. It's hard to talk about this without also talking about other Jewish activists movements like if not now, which in many ways was some of the the core people power at first I. Don't know whether that's still true to the same extent, but am my right to call it a movement. Is it something else like? How do we talk about this cohort of people largely in their twenty s and maybe thirties, who seemed to be deeply called in their hearts to these kinds of movements, some of them are also called to you know other kinds of Jewish institutional things, but for some of them this their core, Jewish act. I think we a lot of that to the work that other movements have done for years and years and years to build the muscle and communities. Allowed something like this to take shape so quickly. Caserta has been doing this work for a long time and had a lot of. Wisdom that they could share with us about what. What we need right now Who really would make an impact and You know gave Serena. The tools a network to find other Jewish activists. If not now, has I know a lot of the people, not everyone, but a lot of the people who came together for never again like already knew each other, and had been in activists community through now for a long time. I also think those movements shaped what it was. We all imagined doing when we when we got on that call because. We talked about hosting actions I. Don't know of listeners. will all know exactly what actions means? and I've seen. Jewish institutions that are a little more established. Maybe doing a quote action in it's essentially a rally where people gather somewhere in there, speakers nee, listen to speakers, and then everyone goes home, and never again came out of activist tradition that said whatever we do needs to really have a material impact need to demonstrate risk and sacrifice to show people that this matters, and if you say, there's concentration camps in your responses to have a speech, I don't think that emotional weight. Is there like we need to demonstrate this moment when thousands of people can't do anything except for like physically, stand in the way of what's happening, which is why actions looked like? Blocking entrances to a detention center or shutting down government meetings talking about what was happening. You know private prisons and people often got arrested at these actions because we really felt like these need to have a, they can't just be like a performance. They need to also have some sort of more of a tangible purpose, and though if never again is has joined kind of this group of activist, movements endure spaces. It's it's not a I. There's a long tradition of Jewish activism. It's not going to be the last I'm sure. A really well, and I would also just say that in Providence I'm by far the youngest person who's on our leadership team, and our leadership team is mostly people ball who are not? Amani aw are and. One of the things that stands out to me, not way that teaches us that. This work has been building for decades is not August about a year ago at never again action in Central Falls Rhode Island. prison guard drove his truck into a crowd of protesters and a dozen prison guards followed and disbursed pepper spray indiscriminately into a crowd of protesters. And this has become. A common occurrence in the last year we've seen car-ramming by the NYPD, and by individuals and I also wanted to say that personally today. I'm really thinking about summer. Taylor and their family summer Taylor was a protester in Washington who was killed by a car attack this week. One thing that moment taught me is that the violence of this system is not new. Resistance to the system is not new one woman who is sent to the hospital that night is in her seventies, and she was afraid so severely she had to be taken to the hospital and the next day when I called to check in on and just talk about what had happened, she said. I was at Berkeley in nineteen, Sixty, eight I was there, and it wasn't as bad as seeing now, but it hasn't changed. and. It's reminder that we've been fighting these systems for as long as any of us can remember, and they're still here and we will work keeps Gyn. Yeah I just WANNA lift up. That never again is truly intergenerational movement. There are very young people taking action for the first time in discovering a Jewish voice, and there are people who have been part of these movements for a long time on and bring. Wisdom and a a real source of strength at the DC action we had middle of the summer, the first person to arrive on down in the building. Declare himself ready to be arrested. If necessary was rabbi Arthur WASCO, who's in his eighties? Everyone was sweltering and you're there for hours and hours and hours, and he was the last one to leave and. I WANNA. Make sure that the role of our elders in these movements isn't. NIST? A huge follower of Arthur West. Go, I love that. He got a shout out here for we'll. We'll link in the show to his episode in the past under his mom bound Okay I want a horn on a couple things that just arose one being that Beca you used the word sacrifice, and on a show about Judaism, and to some extent religion allowed in and I would talk for hours about what religion means I think it's important to to name that word sacrifice because. Think about it in an activist context where sacrifice connotes like risk in the way that you talked about. Showing up and being willing to put yourself on the line for a cause, I think it's easy for us. To sort of segment that kind of sacrifice off from the kind of sacrifice, we read about in like the Torah where sacrifice connotes like sacrificial offerings of animals often, there's other kinds of sacrificial offerings with grain, and whatever, but like two very different connotations, but actually want to look at the ways they are similar, and the ways in which would be the two of you are describing and how you need to. You need to show up and be willing to put. I mean in some cases. Your body like Tau was talking about in other cases at the very least your heart and your mind on the line in order to demonstrate to people who might not understand the stakes of the moment that they really are that high It's it's. It's important to be able to do that, but I I'm thinking about how like that's. That's what these ancient sacrifices seem to have been to right like the whole point was you were supposed to feel a sense of personal loss, and like you gave up a lot of your set like you don't just choose some shoddy looking. To give like you're supposed to give an unblemished one from your flock like that you theoretically probably have a relationship to. And, then you? You I mean once again. I'm vegetarian. Right here to. Say. We should all be sacrificing animals to God. The strategy there is okay for whatever set of reasons giving that up demonstrates a commitment to a greater cause greater cause being God devotion in this case that's important to say, and so I I'd love to hear from the two of you. Why like because because a major difference between the work of say a never again action and other wonderful organizations with different strategies of activism is that risk is that strategy of civil disobedience of being arrested of facing what we faced in Central Falls Rhode. Island that night with with somebody driving their car. Like what is what is it to sacrifice? One of the reasons I think never again has been powerful is for the most part. Jewish institutions were criticizing detention centers, or saying that immigrant rights are important to Jews and not not saying too loudly or saying it in a very moderated way that didn't reflect the way most choose i. knew felt which was sickened and horrified and enraged and ready to do whatever it took to stop what was happening? The role of risk in sacrifice and helping Jews find a new way of expressing that that level of commitment to a more humane country and to human dignity for. Immigrants. All people gave people the tools to take action in a way that is more disruptive and prevents business as usual from happening and. As. A result does require more risk and sacrifice, and I think it's important also to mention that we white Jews have a lot of privilege. Getting arrested at an action does not have the same risks for me that it would front undocumented person and for white shoes. There's a lower risk of violence than there is for people of Color at actions and people of Color are showing up anyway, and so it's important for us to be there so that we can just stand with them. for me. Taking action in this way makes me feel more deeply connected to Jewish practice and values and history than almost anything I. Do and I do observe holidays in other Jewish. Traditions that aren't. Activists, traditions, but showing up to fight for justice through a Jewish lens explicitly, because that's what being Jewish demands of me feels powerful and sacred in a way that I would imagine it's comparable to ancient Jewish practices. So those of us who are white in this country are do not experience the same level of risk when it comes to these actions that that back folks indigenous folks, undocumented folks are seeing now. Across the country as people rise up for black lives, and against the police and police violence, so I would personally feel like the framework of sacrifice is maybe. Brings us to close to. Like a savior mentality that we are the ones who are doing all of the sacrificing for others or for ourselves however. And one thing I also hear a lot is like we need to be doing the work like this is. There's work that we need to do, and I think that like it is hard work. It takes a lot of time together. Things like best it takes a lot of dedication and a lot of communication, and it's difficult, but I also think work is only model to think about spending time on something and. I stuck said. We're building the world that we WANNA see as we. Project the world that exists right now and I think of an action again in central. Falls Rhode Island where the board of this private prison was discussing a plan to sell the prison to another private prison company, and to cement their agreement with ice to detain at least six hundred and fifty people. In this facility from ice and a group of mostly why Jews with? Our allies, a more which is a movement led by undocumented folks went into this meeting and started singing for like an hour, and a half, and shut down the meeting because we were leading Chaba prayers. The meeting was Friday at six PM. We came in with a bottle of grief, Jews in a couple of colleges, and we had Shaybah in this private prison candlesticks that we brought. Candlesticks were there and dot exam or to me. Is All about how as we dismantle? Prisons Police ice. anti-bok racism and settlers colonisation in this country were also building a really beautiful world, and it's not just sacrifice or work. It's also collectives joy in the duration. That's an amazing story that that's actually what I've been dreaming of and talking about I since we started the podcast this this. Dream, that somehow services would take place at a place of action, and whether that means a protest type of action or a homeless shelter or A soup kitchen, or whatever it might be that the service would not be disconnected from the action, but actually if there was going to be a service at all, which I've had my questions about, but that it would be integrated into. Into acting and I I think that's really exciting to hear something that it actually makes me think about lex. Was texting me in the background that earlier when we were talking that what you were describing to some extent was like a Jewish movement, but not a denomination. You know we think of a movement is like you know. What denomination are you? But no, but this is a movement and I and the way that you. You were talking about the Inter Generational Dimension of it, and the way in which you know, the older folks are bringing wisdom and experience in the younger folks may bringing energy and passion, or whatever that is you know, and the idea that that you are starting to describe a sort of a Jewish movement that is much more healthy than than any other existing Jewish movement in the way that we usually talk about it. It so it's exciting to me to imagine where this where this plays out in, and maybe we can talk about that I mean i. also want to underscore what you've been saying about just talking about this substance that you've been talking about even the the concept of sacrifice, and and I really think that the concept of sacrifice is worth. You know maybe Lexi is take it next time you know we talk or something you. You know I think it's really kind of fascinating in part because the rabbis in the after destruction of the Second Temple kind of rebuilt Judaism around prayer, but in their mind prayer was taking the place of the sacrifices you know so it's interesting to think about sacrifice taking the place of the sacrifices. And what kind of sacrifice are we talking about? Maybe a different kind, but I think to underscore LX with saying that. In the Bible what you are sacrificing with something really valuable, and you're right to say that may be where we have privilege, and it's it's less There's less to lose. Maybe than than other people might have, but nevertheless it's. It's something to lose. I'm curious about another sort of language that you're using an and I. Know that you've I'm sure been asked this question a million times. I Wanna I, WanNa get into it deeply, though which is the question of the name of the organization never again the the idea of how cost imagery and The organization bend. The Arc I think pretty close to when trump was elected. They started also using this language. We've seen this before, and we talked to them back then about using that language and. Obviously there is pushback from from various elements within the Jewish community that say well. We shouldn't be comparing anything to the Holocaust. The Holocaust generous. The Holocaust was the worst thing that ever happened to anybody. And you know how dare you use an analogy to the Holocaust. Obviously, we don't think that you don't think that. I. Feel like there's some power I think I've said versions of this before I think there's some power in as a Jew inviting others to use the Holocaust and I've said that before it's like. Please the Holocaust meaning like what's the point of having? Experience something like that, and then just saying nobody can we can never. We can never derive anything from it. We can never use it in some way. I'd love to hear in your voice. How do you talk about the usage of that language in that analogy and the power, and also the responsibility of using it? I think you're right that if we are never allowed to apply lessons from the Holocaust, where other tragedies in our history to the present, we take away their meaning, I would want the tragedies in pain that our people have gone through to motivate us to prevent future tragedies and. I also WANNA say the for Ashkenazi Jews. That's the Holocaust There are other tragedies that Jews broader history and experiences of oppression. That we can draw from and never again action. The name came from. Anger about this semantic debate that was happening whether or not it was okay to say never again in the sense of no more concentration camps for any people ever, and I had an interesting conversation with a front end this week. Actually about this, she is Jewish also part of act up which is an organization that was created during the height of the AIDS epidemic, and she was talking about how she was really frustrated, because act up was drying from their history with the AIDS crisis as they. They talked about the pandemic were currently facing in Corona. Virus and people are saying that's inappropriate. How can you make that comparison? And she felt like we are act up. If anyone has the right to make that comparison, it's us and I feel the same way like I am a descendant of Holocaust victims. We Are Jews. If anyone has the right to say, this is a concentration camp and never again means that this cannot happen. It's US institutional Jewish. Organizations sometimes try to claim that mantle. Declare themselves the arbiter of what you can and can't say about Jews, Jewishness, or our history and this movement in some ways got started as a as a response and just average Jewish people who may may not be involved with institutional Jewish life, saying no, actually that's ours too, and no one else gets to be over US and. Our history means something to us, and and has set of demands for the way we act right now. Echoes of Your Beautiful Bonus episode there, but how Judaism belongs to all of us I love that you brought up. Act Up I WANNA. Talk a little more about that beautiful moment at the meeting in central falls with the singing and the Chabad candlesticks and the and the wine in. I mean it was a gym it was it was like a it was like a gym that we were gathered in where where we disrupted and made our presence felt on Chabad. I want to name it because when I think through my entire mental library of powerful ritual Jewish experiences in my life. In synagogues outside of synagogues wherever they've been to moments rise to the top and one. Is that evening? That Friday night in that Jim and people came up afterwards. WHO said like? I've never felt anything really in a Friday. Night Service and this wasn't like a Friday night service by the book in the way that many people think but people were coming up to me and saying like I felt something away I haven't felt in Jewish space before and I certainly felt that. That and then the other moment that rises in my ritual library to the top is when I was in DC at an if not now action outside of the APEC conference dominating a service there I think somehow we still can't get over this hurdle where we see those kinds of services, those those kinds of rituals is like That's the altar Judaism. That's the Judaism you do every once in a while on the side, but mostly you go to a synagogue or Lake, whatever traditional kind of Jewish institution, and like I feel as if you, and by the way in Providence, one beautiful thing of all this is that like actually the local synagogues and federation like they were actually and our deeply involved in in many of these actions and showed up. It wasn't just lake. It was a mixture of people with all sorts of different connections or lack thereof to the Jewish institutions in town that we're all coming together forming a coalition in partnership with undocumented people in partnership with other allies in the community like it was a really spectacular thing there, but what I what I want to ask is like. What happens to people maybe to to you, but what's the theory behind? What's happening to people that are at these actions and like? Why do they happen? Jewish Li like you could do all of these same things we could do all of these same things, but without Chabad candlesticks without grape juice without like without Hebrew songs. We could do a lot of same stuff, but. There's a conscious choice to do so through Jewish lines, which I which we the Holocaust analogy piece in the ways on immigration that it ties together are very clear, but why in general would one do justice work through a Jewish lens as opposed to just you know being part of broader work I mean I know both of you do that, too. Not just the Jewish Lens, but it was like. Why do those moments seen to people so deeply in a way that is not just touching. They're like activists muscles, but they're Jewish muscles as well. And maybe the real question is. How do we transcend that idea that sort of the Jewish happens at the synagogue. You would leave. You would leave on Friday at that. You would leave that action at six thirty on Friday to go to your sort of real service opposed to realizing Oh. This is my service this week, you know. I would say that the reason actions like the one this board meet in dot. We effectively canceled right. They cancelled appointed an because we were singing Chabad. Prayers the reason the resonate so much for me is sort of contained in one of the chance or song that never again action. Uses frequently, which is we've got ancestors at our back, and we've got generations forward when I get from that in from these actions that we have all the tools at our disposal to see the world that we want to see right if it's Friday at six PM. We know what to do. Ray and we also know that we're doing it for generations forward and I think that also ties into the question of being the Holocaust. We know what genocide can. We also know the genocide happened before the Holocaust it's happened since and we need to do everything we can to make sure that what's going on right now doesn't get to the point of genocide I have a friend who worked in conflict resolution in transformation in Rwanda, and when she was in Rwanda, she's Oak. About the Holocaust her family's experience with the Holocaust and to the children she was working with though is so much power and hope in realizing that they were not the only people who had ever seen John I. And realizing that this isn't experience, die, we can all learn from and fight together to people who a have experiences with genocide learning that this is a historical phenomenon that can repeated south. and has happened before is valuable in the sense that it. It allows us to be agents in history and understand south as capable of preventing it from happening again. Which is I think what? The power in in never again action is it allows us to be agents of history knowing what we know about genocide and knowing what we wish Germans in. Had done a couple of generations ago. Lexin I sometimes debate about what what can we say? That's definitive about Judaism. If anything you know when we're backward-looking, can we say that Judaism does X., or can we just say that? One Judaism, one version of Judaism has done extra versions of. Next I almost feel like to the extent that we can say anything about Judaism, one of the things that we can say is that definitional to Judaism is that we imagine that are past? Suffering has present and future meaning right at it, and maybe sometimes we could debate. Does that mean that we should protect ourselves versus that we should protect others? We can debate about that, but the idea that something terrible happens to us and we shouldn't talk. Talk too much about it, or it's kind of you know we hold it tight. We don't. We don't sort of publicize. That's like it feels to me like the opposite of a Jewish way to to to deal with something now. Maybe we say something about the Holocaust. It's too soon. The exodus from Egypt I mean that was a long time ago. We can talk about that doesn't involve somebody S- current family. You know memories or something but I. Always felt to me. Kind of false to the way that Judaism works that we wouldn't take the Holocaust and actually turn it into a driving force for doing something, and for those of us who are inclined to read it as like you're saying that that it becomes potentially a galvanizing force for us to help others and make sure nobody else suffers this way ever again. It sort of seems like we have a sacred duty to do that and you know brings me back to the point of sacrifice. What when we kind of. Hold Germans to account and I don't mean the Germans. Who who perpetrated the Holocaust? I mean the. Germans, right what? We're imagining that they ought to have done that. They didn't do was somehow sacrifice rate was somehow risk their own safety in order to protect us, and it feels like when we are in a position analogous to that when we have the opportunity to do that, even if when we're to say that what might happen to the person or to that? That community of people is not as bad as what happened to the Jews in the Holocaust. I'm not saying that that's the case. But even if you said that that was the case, nevertheless what we should derived from our own experiences that we should act the way that we would have wished that others would act towards us, I mean it seems sort of elemental. For me, that makes me want to hear more about how the two of you think about Judaism and what the point of it is, and how how what you're Utopian version of a future. Judaism might be and I'm curious. If you could sort of talk a little bit about for you, what Judaism would feel like to you? That didn't include this kind of action. I guess I'm asking you to reflect on the Judaism, that you've. Inherited to some extent. Or that you might have been expected by the community around you to participate in this connects to some extent. To our previous conversation about what happens on campus with Jewish life verses that Judaism that in some way you are trying to construct or reconstruct, that would have more power for you, and perhaps for others like you. I mean if we're talking about like vision for a dream world, I dream Jewish community. To me, that's like definitely inherently tied to my politics. What I want the world to look like so we're talking no prisons, no police, no ice Ben, we can. Get to the. Other more spiritual questions I think it's related, because it also means a community that is invested in healing that's invested in transformative justice in addressing interpersonal harm in a way that. is respectful to survivors in all members of the community it means. A community that's actively invested in leveraging our resources are privileges to help our society. It means a community that is invested in lifting up parts of the Jewish community like the Sephardic armies, Rafi traditions that are often left out in the US. It means lifting up blocking indigenous, Jews it means a lot of singing to me, means investing in relationships, and not in buildings or what we might think of as institutions. Yeah, I'm curious. Rebecca was say to. To. Me Judaism and activism feel like two sides of the same coin in that they are away from me to find whatever the opposite of nihilism is there a way for me to find? Some sort of meaning in my life, they helped me connect to something outside of myself and bigger than myself and find comfort in that weather. That's a place in the struggle for justice that has always been happening. A will always be happening in our world or a connection to a spirituality higher than myself, they helped me process pain. They helped me. find joy I mean we haven't talked in some ways about the more joyful moments in these actions, but there really have been true moments of joy dancing in the streets outside of detention centers, or like watching a live stream of the Rhode Island action, and seeing a massive crowd chant in unison were canceling this meeting Chabad Shalom, and that begins Singing Zimmer at Ya. Just felt spiritual to me. I find in both activism and Judas Emma, a sense of connection to a history and to a future. That I can learn from and have obligations to and. I am not saying that. Every activist has to have that relationship or every Jew has to have that relationship because it's something very personal but part of. The Jewish identity outside of institutions and organically created by Jewish. People in the streets for ourselves one of the reasons. It's exciting to news because it gives everyone that freedom to. Find what is meaningful to them and be supported. To lean into it and learn from it and be nourished by it in community with other people. I KINDA WANNA. Come full circle to some of the. Questions that have come up both the extent to which there are real generational dynamics happening here in the extent to which I love how both of you have questioned them to talk about how you're the youngest one and the core team in Providence hurt in Rhode Island because that takes us all the way back to the first episode of Judaism. Unbound I mean. Mean, Dan and some of the first things that came out of our mouth, were reflecting on okay lex millennial, which at the time meant ooh LEX young new new Jewish professional, or whatever not that I? Like that term to professional, but I'm at the time we talked about you know a millennial and his gen-x and we think that there's interesting things that that will. Will Affect our frames of reference, but also questioned on day one. The idea that everything is generational and everything is contextual. When you were born like we said there's a lot of people who feel alienated from Jewish Institutions, who it's not because they're young, I mean there's plenty of boomers who are alienated from tuition. There's plenty of people who are in their seventies eighties. Eighties beyond who are native from Jewish institutions if they literally can't access them because of their abilities and disabilities, there's plenty of people of all ages where some of the things we talk about as sort of unique problems of one age in distinction from problems of another age might actually be the case, but basically I wanna I wanNA. Shoot back to you like. Yes it is the case, and it's important that especially locally this work has been intergenerational and the and the piece that the power of that never again power Nadia Song of. Ancestors that are back generations forward I think holds that it as a sacred value that we're that we're gonNA. Be Transformational And I think it needs to be said that this rose from largely people who are on the general younger and of the spectrum in terms of who was at that I new Jersey action, and then there was sort of. There was a there was a way in which and honestly when I was at the accident. I felt like one of the the older ones that they're i. mean maybe I was wrong. I felt like I was one of the older ones at that action. And I was really energized by the fact that that was the case, so what I'd love to close with is like. What specifically do we need to be learning from people? Who are young often starting up these incredibly beautiful, powerful, national and international movements What are we specifically need to learn from from people on the younger end of the age spectrum? Everybody loves to talk about little things like Tiktok and whatever else, but like what's what's bigger than that and on the other hand? How should we be pushing ourselves to recognize that like? This isn't some new moment where we've replaced. The wisdom of our elder is like we. We still need the Arthur. Ask goes in our room desperately. I see people on both ends of the age spectrum, so our youngest people and leaders and our oldest people leader sometimes discounted or not taken seriously as real leadership. In both cases, I think it's wrong and really does a disservice to our community, because they're so much wisdom and leadership there, and so in terms of how to engage with young people at saying gauge with them as leaders I in as activists and. As? Young people second because they are leaders in their own right. The youth movements that are transforming our world, really I. Feel should have been conclusively demonstrated that at this point. Creating a space where everyone is invited in and respected and listened to. Invites that intergenerational magic. I, think the conversation around Gen Z. Activism or Jen's US politics I don't know I kind of I. Don't really like that conversation. Because the Black Panthers were, boomer is an honest party was bigger in the sixties than it is now and. Radical politics changes over time, and maybe it's easier to find these things with the Internet now maybe but. Often when we talk about Jen's being inspiring, which they absolutely are, it's a way to ignore the work that's been happening or absolve ourselves from being of the work. That's ongoing and. Someone who's eighteen, seventy, thirty five someone, his seventy on his forty four. All of us have a job to play in building a better world, and it behooves us to ignore the talking points that like Gen Z. will fix the world Wednesday, come in power, because all of us have power, and all of us have a role to play in this struggle, and it's just about investing in and supporting leaders as they come up at any stage of life. Thank, you so much for doing this fantastic conversation and we're always thrilled to learn from both you. so awesome to be in conversation with you Becca and thank you Lexin Dan for having us. and. Thank you of course to all of you out there listening. We hope that you enjoyed this episode. We're also going to really we're going to really plug the past appearances of tall and Becca. Andre deism unbound tall was, and our episode called Judaism on our own. BECCA had a beautiful bonus episode about who Judaism belongs to listen to it to learn more about what that phrasing might mean. and Becca is also. Our are twenty twenty year long. Studios unbound fellow, and is just doing amazing work. Stay tuned for more when L. Arises in not too long month of elul in which Becca is creating some really wonderful stuff and. A BIG! Thank you to all of you out there for listening to their voices once more on. We're going to close out episode in the same way that we always do encouraging you to be in touch with us, and there are a wide variety of ways for you to do that. I you can head to our facebook pages, Judaism unbound or Jewish lives second you can go to our website studios, unbound dot, com, or Jewish, live dot org third. You can go to our twitter feed, which is just. Just at Judaism among down in last night. At least you can always email us at Dan. Judaism, unbound dot, com, or LEX, JUDAISM UNBOUND DOT COM. The latter cost we like to make is that we deeply appreciate any amount of donation. You can send our way which you can do that. Use them about dot com slash donate. We also encourage you to support never again. Action I would. You can do their website and just thank you all so much for listening that this has been Judaism on them.